After reading stories from victims of Psychopaths who visited a therapist, it appears to me that most of these experiences were negative. It is well documented that therapy would make a Psychopath worse so to speak, so this must be a double edge sword for the victim seeking therapy.

My questions are:

Did you go to see a therapist?

Was the therapy "couples therapy"?

Did you go alone most of the time and brought your husband/x to some of the meetings?

Did you consider the experience helpful or harmful and in what ways?

Thanks so much, I appreciate your feedback.

My therapy experience hasd been excellent.

I had taken the xp a few times, this was my therapist to begin with. Once or twice, he went in my place. She was onto him from the get go.

Nowadays, we just look back at him joke, or use hime as a profile example of the typical jerk, e-rrr, p.

pd policer

I've been thinking how nice it would be to have the luxury of a therapist at the present time to vent to and possibly get some helpful feedback. I'm looking at my options and in the process have been reflecting on my past experiences with the field of Psychology.

To answer the questions posted at the beginning of this thread:
1. Yes I saw several therapists in the last 10 years or so of my marriage to the P.
2. I had couples and singles therapy
3. In the beginning I went alone because I thought I was the problem. I brought the P to some sessions later.

The experiences never helped our marriage. And in retrospect I was helped very little by the standard MA/PhD psychologists. Actually, I'm being kind. They probably did more harm than good. I usually left feeling frustrated and more anxious and unhappy than before the session.

I was helped by a psychiatrist who had a specialty in the personality disorders and nabbed the P right away.

But who I was remembering recently was one of the very first
"counselors" I saw. My kids were very young and I was quite sick having recently been diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Fibromyalgia. She had no licensed credentials or degrees of any kind. She was basically a "New Age" type self proclaimed therapist. She had a heart of gold and a wonderful office with pillows on the floor, candles, and she was really delightful. After I saw her a few times I thought it would be a good idea to bring the P in to see her with me with the idea that she could help me explain to him about my illness. He had been very nasty and disbelieving about it and I thought having another person (witness) explain would help.

I could not have been more wrong. He came into the woman's office and was disdainful and haughty in his demeanor from the get go. He made a nasty remark about this being a "woman's thing" and he wanted no part of it. And he insulted her sitting pillows on the floor as being unprofessional. He stormed out of the office. Luckily I had driven there in my own car. "E" told me that his energy was so negative that she feared for me. That she was basing this on her intuition as well as his behavior. She basically said that he had polluted her office with his energy and that she would have to clear the space of the remains of his presence.

I brought this up to bring home the point that there are people who sees P's for what they are. They may be rare, but they do exist. The Psychiatrist I see with all manner of "credentials" sees the P in pretty much the same way. And the P's reaction to him was the same as his reaction to "E", essentially. Pure hatred.

I also have a friend who has always cringed when being around the P. Could never stand him. Was never taken in by his smarmy so called "charm". She always supported my leaving the P even when all the others I knew thought he was the "good guy".

My point here is that it isn't always someone's credentials that make them effective as therapists. It's been a great lesson to me. I'm remembering this as I look for someone to listen and help me on my path.

Cherie

Cherie, You are so right. Credentials mean very little when the problem is a psychopath. If a person in immersed in knowlege of personality disorders, this may bring a postive experience. From what I have read here, this seems to be the case. Other than that, an understanding of the psychopath requires a high level of intutive wisdom and/or experience with a psychopath. I personally feel that the second situation yields the highest benefits. The reason is because one may "know" something in the intellect, and yet not fully grasp the emotional/spiritual ramifications. To find someone who can offer all 3, education, intuitive grasp, and experience would be the ideal.

My therapist is a spiritual advisor, but does have all 3 qualifications. She was formerly a mainstream therapist, obtained a divinity degree, and went through a specific 2-year training for spiritual advising.

I recommend a spiritual advisor, if you can find one in your area.

kris

Yes kris, this is exactly what I want and need. A spiritual advisor. What you described is what will help. You are fortunate in having found this and we are fortunate that you are sharing this here. I plan on setting my sights in this direction in acquiring help.

kris said: "To find someone who can offer all 3, education, intuitive grasp, and experience would be the ideal".

Oh my goodness....one thing I forgot to add to what kris wrote:
"To find someone who can offer all 3, education, intuitive grasp, and experience would be the ideal".

I forgot to add that I believe there needs to be a "connection" between the person giving the help and the person seeking the help. All the wisdom in the world won't be conveyed or assimilated without this element.

Cherie

Yes, right, both operalover and cherie,

The "fit" is probably the most important thing. Let me tell you something, I was praying my heart out for someone who could serve as my therapist a few years ago, when I was going through the worst of the hell. Then, information about this training program which trains spiritual advisors fell into my hands from 2 directions...a woman friend who was in the program, and my daughter who is a seminary student, and was given the option of having a spiritual advisor from this program, through her seminary (and she does have one).

I first attended an orientation for people interested in entering the program. After that, I knew that, at the very least, I wanted to be counseled by someone who had gone through this program. They were speaking my language, and I don't find alot of peope who do.

I called about getting a spiritual advisor. And I was given a free 2 hour consultation, by one in the big old historic church out of which this program operates. From this meeting, I was called a few days later, and given 3 names, and descriptions of each person, from their religious background/training to their personalities, life orientations, interests. I can't tell you how afraid I was to pick, given my horrible, and I do mean horrible, past experiences.

Of course, (as I was advised), I was not locked into my first choice. Or any choice. But I knew that alot of damage could be done before I extricated myself because I have a rather bleak history of that. I have a persistent quality, and that fails me when I am in a bad situation.

Well, I picked. D is not only all the other things I have described. She is exactly my age. We both have shoulder-length curly hair. 2 out of the 3 times I have appeared for my session, we are dressed almost the same. She is so similar to me, I feel like I have known her all my life. She also had a personality-disordered mother. And like me, she had to break off the relationship. She was married to a very abusive man (but now, is married to a wonderful one). She has had psychopaths in her life, and she has suffered from this, tremendously.

When, in the first ssssion, I told D that I believed my husband was a psychopath, and she blinked not at all, but love and acceptance filled her eyes, I swear, I wanted to fall on the floor and sob. Previously, when after many sessions, I would get around to my beliefs about my husband, I could watch the therapist's eyes glaze over, as I became the focus of their scrutiny. I didn't have time to waste when I got to D, so I just came right out with it, and D has never wasted one precious moment of my time.

She was an answer to a prayer. And EVERY ONE OF US deserves nothing less than this.

kris

operalover,

My therapist after the p, actually a "med check" Dr. by then...when I told him that I had been abandoned by a psychopath, he barely flinched. I had seen him before, in depth, before he became a med check doctor only. I told others he was a "saint" because he helped me so much. One thing he said to me was, "if I remember correctly, Laura, you always fall in love with abusers." He also told me, "I have seen you before for the same type of reasons (being abandoned, hurt, abused, major depression), you should be bouncing back from this. After all, its not the first time you have been treated this way by a man."

This wasn't just any man this time. This was a psychopath. I believe that this doctor had been doing this for so long, was so educated about things, that he forgot his roots. He forgot how to counsel. Like going to the doctor with, say, poison oak, and the doctor says, "Your the 12th case I've seen of this today. You'll itch pretty bad. Call me if you run a fever." Then walks out. Hmmmmm. 12th case he's seen today? First time I ever had poison oak.

Psychiatrists see the results of abuse every day in their office, and the results of abuse by psychopaths. It can become "no big deal" to them. What they need to remember, to realize, is that it is "new" to us, the "first time" for us i.e. the psychopath. If it weren't for "us", they would be unemployed.

Yes, bad fit. Very bad fit.

Laura

Hare: does psychotherapy do psychopaths more harm than good?

Crime Times
Vol. 6, No. 3, 2000 Page 6

One good reason for studying biological anomalies in psychopathic offenders is that psychotherapeutic approaches rarely are successful in treating these criminals. In fact, Robert Hare, an expert on psychopathic behavior, argues that current sociological and psychological interventions may be worse than useless.

In a recent presentation to the American Neuropsychiatric Association, Hare noted that treatment seems to increase, rather than decrease, the rate of recidivism among criminal psychopaths. Among the research he cited:

One study of criminals released from a program for personality-disordered offenders compared 176 who received intensive group and individual therapy with 146 who were not treated. The rate of violent offending decreased in non-psychopaths receiving t treatment, but increased among treated psychopaths when compared with psychopaths who received no treatment.
Another study of more than 300 offenders receiving social skills training and anger management therapy found that one-year reconviction rates were significantly higher in treated than in non-treated psychopaths.

A third study found that the sex offenders most likely to re-offend were those with strong psychopathic tendencies who were rated as "good risks" by psychological personnel because of their insight into their problems. In other words, Hare said, recid divism occurred most often in psychopaths "who had the ability to convince the therapists they had made good progress in treatment."

Hare speculates that psychotherapy simply helps a psychopath learn more about how other people think, and thus "improves his ability to con."

Continues...

operalover,

I agree 100%. The hard part is finding enough qualified, educated therapists who are knowledgable regarding psychopaths. A lot of therapists are not, and have and will continue to diagnois the psychopathic client innapropriately with many other types of mental illnesses, addicions, phobia's, etc., still falling short of actually diagnoising psychopath.

It is easier to diagnois an alcoholic, drug addict, sex addict, gambling addict, etc. as they will say things like "I drink too much, use drugs, run around on my spouse, gambled away the savings," thereby making it somewhat easier to determine the problem.

A psychopath will never go into therapy and say, "I lie once in a while. In fact, I just lied about saying it was only once in a while." I do not believe any good therapist can help anyone who is an admitted liar.

I have read that is why there is not P.A. (Psychopaths Anonymous), they would just go there and out lie each other. It would all be a waste of time.

Even to study them would be a difficult task. The side they would present would allow for little to be learned. It seems that those who have lived with them are the experts. Unfortunately, most of us probably do not have a degree allowing us to use our experience as valid research.

I thought the psychiatrist treating my ex p from December 2000 to about April 2001 was a Godsend. I thought this Doctor was great. I understood that he was trying to diagnois the p and was in a hit and miss stage, but on the right track. Sadly, for him no doubt, and me, the p stopped going.

As for the p's behavior while going? Worse. Much worse. What led him to help to begin with was the "alleged" gambling addiction. The "head trauma", unexplained. The "hot checks." After 4 months of treatment, regularly, the p was more enraged, claimed hatred for his father (who he had idolized our entire marriage), escalated his check writing from bad checks to the checks on the closed account. His lies, oh God, I shudder to think of that! The lies as I said on another post were being told at the speed of light!

So yes, I feel that the good psychiatrist had hoped that the p would continue to be a client. He would have eventually, I believe was very close already, have diagnoised him as a p. I also believe my ex knew this also. That is why he stopped going. Not really because he learned to be worse by therapy, but because he would rather die than be found out.
He had to stop going, it was all closing in on him. He knew something was terribly wrong with him (the one truthful thing he admitted to me). What he did not want to know, or for it to be documented in any way, was that what was "wrong" with him is that he IS a psychopath.

Yes, help victims, educate the public, prevention. All very neccessary, an urgent need without a doubt. The only way this can be done, truthfully, honestly and accurately is to take into consideration all the stories of the victims.

The victims have to speak out for psychopaths to ever be "studied." We know. We saw. We experienced. We suffered. We are the only ones who know what it is they need to study. Our voices, accumulative, can help with all the steps you have mentioned.

The psychopath would be of no help at all. As usual.

Laura

operalover,

Yes, checklist done regarding prisoners. But is it not possible to add some things to the list, from experience with those p's not in prison? I would think that those p's may even have more ability to hide behind a facade then those in prison. Was it Bundy that said, "there are far better psychopaths than I," meaning the one's who did not get caught?

As for profiling, yes, I know about that. Very interesting too, as it enables law enforcement to find a criminal before they hurt someone else. Sadly, to me, all psychopaths that do not murder others, those that kill hopes and dreams, do it in the same manner, the same tactics, the same behaviors.
Its like, okay, now we know what a psychopath is. We know what they do and how they get by with it. So where will we go from here? We have the research, we know the answers. Now how are we going to change it? How are we going to solve the problem and alleviate any more psychopath destruction and pain?

In a nutshell, the p is a con artist, a liar, a sweet talker, a actor, a fake. We know. So where do we go from here? Will all the research, all the victims stories, all of it lead us to a place that the entire world knows what to look for? When we reach that point, it will all have been worth it. Right now it seems the most interest in psychopaths is coming from the victims. We already have been there, done that.

I guess I would not look up any information about say, artificial insemination, unless I was interested in it. If I was, then I would want to learn all I could about it.

So how, oh how, is all the information we can muster together about psychopaths help other potential victims, if they have no interest in knowing about them? And yet, they are all in grave danger of meeting, working with, loving, marrying one. Then we will see them here. After its done and over.

Prevent psychopathy. Yes, better upbringing for the children. Intervention earlier for the conduct disordered.
In the meantime, these children are growing up, the teenage prespective psychopaths are almost adults and we are going to be running amuk with more psychopaths than we have right now. Is there a quick fix? No. But I still strongly believe that the best fix is to make psychopath a household word. Something to be feared.

If all potential victims know a psychopath totally and aren't trying to just guess if they are one, understand it completely, then that will be the best prevention anyone can hope for. Then we will just have the aftermath of those already effected to deal with, and of course the children that may grow into one.

This is all my opinion and I'm pretty tired. I'm not in anyway disagreeing with yours. I just get riled up about the world knowing about psychopaths and rack my brain out a lot trying to make it happen.

Laura

OL,
Could you elaborate a little more on your theory of codependency and how it can color decision making and prevent seeing red flags? Thanks

Please move any discussion that isn't about "Therapy and the Effects - regarding Psychopaths" to the General Discussion area.

Thanks,

Shunyata
(member)
09/29/04 07:15 PM

How Therapy Affects Psychopathic Behavior

I just read that therapy may cause the psychopath to act again......is there any hope for this disorder?

Poster: geteven
Subject: Re: help for p's

what if psycho becomes a patient to a therapist. are they going to be enabled or is there a chance for help for them. in other words, do they seek help.

Hi geteven, you might read this thread, it is a great question you are asking and more input from others who might have missed it would be interesting.

Di

They don't self reflect, and don't believe there is anything wrong with them, so I can't imagine one seeking out therapy on their own.

My P agreed to meet with my therapist with me a couple of times. He sat there and lied to her more than he lied to me. Totally shameless! It was just part of the manipulation game with me, trying to get me to give him more control. Needless to say I dropped that. BTW, my therapist saw through his agressive narcissism completely and from that time on did all she could to support my trying to break my addiction of him and support my need and desire to break away. She really didn't like him.

Koodoos for therapy for VICTIMS of P's, but don't try couple's counseling - omg, what a nightmare.

Diane1969