Hello-

i recently found this wonderful site, and I am so thankful for it. I have a concern, and I have no one to talk to about it. I was doing research on P profiling, and I started to think about my boyfriend. There are a lot of things on there that give me a red flag, but I am not so sure,and it upsets me so much, because I dont know. I was hoping to talk to people with similar stories and backgrounds, so I can figure out if he is indeed a P. Help!!
I started doing research on a site, because I have a P in my immediate family, whom i have cut off completely a few years ago. As I was reading, i slowly started to think of my boyfriend, and how some of these profiles fit him. Then I thought, well it must be the PMS talking because I get really sensitive around that time. I started thinking that he does have a narccistic attitude, and whenever I feel something, he always seems to turn it around to how it affects him, and I used to tease him and tell him, "I'ts your world, I just live in it" and slowly I think it's coming true. I recently caught him stealing something so petty of mine, and I played dumb and asked if he saw it, and he feigned innocence, and then they magically re-appeared. I confronted him the next day, and told him I saw what he did, and STILL lied about it, and then tried to get all defensive, saying things like, "think about it, WHY would I want to take that, it doesn't make sense?" so in effect he lied twice about it, and I thought to myself, what else has he lied to me about.
Granted, we have had a very trying relationship via outside circumstances, and we have stuck together. He always says, I could have to you to get out long ago, but I dont, cause I love you, and yes, I have threatened to leave before, but then stay. I know I have emotional issues myself, and I guess I wonder if this guy is the real thing, my dream man, or is he just too good to be true. We have been together 2 1/2 years, and he has been consistent with me, and sweet, funny, charming, talented as anything, smart. Pretty much what I wanted in a man, but then this started nagging at me, so again if anyone out there can help me sort this out, I would be eternally grateful. Thank you!

sunshine,

Welcome to this forum. Too bad a possible psychopath brought you here, but you have come to the right place to question your doubts about your boyfriend.

If it is too good to be true, then it is. If you doubt your own thinking, then someone gave you reason to. If your boyfriend is sweet, kind, loving, loves you, etc. that is good, especially if he's not a p. That is what should be expected in a relationship where love is the basis.

Sweet, kind, loving people do not steal from you. They do not have you doubting your own perceptions of reality. Also you say you have emotional issues? Without knowing what yours are, I will tell you mine, when I met the p, was obviously low self-esteem, deep fear of being alone-not in a relationship as it were, and "needing" a man to validate myself. If I could "get" a younger then me, good looking, talented (yes, my p could sing/play guitar/fix vehicles/build things/repair things - Jack of all trades, master at being a p) man, then I must be quite a catch. I just did not see it then. I thought I was just fine as I was. I was in denial about how desperate looking I looked to others. The p saw me coming from a mile away.

What you are describing is gaslighting. When your rational mind tells you one thing, then another. I call it mind games. When you doubt your perception of reality, something is going on.

A few examples of p lying as opposed to non-p lying, maybe this will help?

P lying:

1. Our phone rings. I just stepped out of the shower, drying off. P husband answers call in living room. I go to bedroom phone and look at caller ID. Business that recovers money for hot/bad checks shows up on ID. I get dressed, go to living room. Ask p husband "who called?". He tells me it was a wrong number. I ask "who did they ask for?", he looks me in the eyes and says "George"; I say "George, not George Smith or Mr. Smith (using Smith as a last name example only)". His voice raises and he reinterates that they wanted "George" and if I doubt him, call them back (typical p trait, they bank on the fact that their express permission to verify their lies will keep you off track and at bay. That knowing they don't care if you do, will stop you-because they ARE lying). I then proceed to scream at him, my blood was boiling. I knew he was lying as he had already written over $2,000 in NSF checks and checks on our CLOSED account. But of course, p liar, had "stopped". P stuck to his story. Fastforward about 2 weeks. P abandons me, that was over 1 year ago. I had written down the number in the bedroom that day, just in case he did lie. So I call them after the abandonment. I was told by the recovery place that my p husband owed over $400 for writing 2 checks on our closed account to payday loan companies and that "he had been making payments, called us to say he would be in June 2, 2001 to pay, has not shown up." They say he called them the day before he abandoned me, from work. Oddly enough, the call for "George" came the day before he called them back. I called this same recovery place one month ago. The checks have not been paid and will be on the p's credit 6 more years.

2. I go to mailbox, March 2001. Notice from payday loan company (actually one of checks written mentioned above), p husband wrote them a check on a closed account and they want recovery. I call husband at work. He denied, denied, denied. I finally scream at him to tell me the truth, quit lying for once in his life! He admits it, I kick him out.

Non P lie:

"Yes, honey, I'd love to go on a vacation with your parents, cousins, uncles, aunts", when he'd rather be hung by his toenails. But he loves you, really loves you and he will suffer some because he loves you. A psychopaths purpose in life is to make you suffer, not him.

How do you tell its a p?

When you find their hand in the cookie jar, but they swear its not their hand. When they lie about things that are totally stupid to lie about. When they lie about some things, anything, everything. When they have a secret life.
When they treat you like a Queen, make you feel you died and went to Heaven, then steal, cheat, lie, abandon, play mind games, promise to change or stop their behavior-don't though, etc.

Operalover said it real, real well. The bad things are not a "dream". P's promises are empty. Do his actions match his words? Does he talk the talk, not walk the walk? If you catch him at something and have your doubts, does he lay on the words of love so thick you can cut them with a knife? Or does some other crisis happen, or another lie surface so fast that you forget about the previous one? Can he hold a job? Does he have friends or is he a loner? Does he anger easily or seem to be the calm one in the relationship?

Keep this in mind: Not all criminals are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are criminals.

The BIG difference is having a conscience. Psychopaths do not. If you ask them, "why did you do this or that? Why are you hurting me? If you love me, how come you treat me like this?, etc." and all you get is "I don't know, but I do love you", or "you deserve it, thats why", or "if you had not have done this or that, it would have not caused me to do what I did", then you MAY be dealing with a person with no conscience. Also, if they continue to do the same wrong things over and over, might be a p, as p's DO NOT learn from their mistakes, they only learn to be more careful.

I was married to a psychopath for 8 years and had not a clue until the 7th year. I knew he lied, had a criminal record, blamed all past relationship failures on the woman, never and I mean never spoke the truth, and that I thought he was SO Wonderful! When, in fact, I was married to a psychopath, for certain.

You are lucky that you suspect it now, before a marriage takes place. If you are right, at best, you will lose your self respect, heart, money, possessions, sanity to a p. At worst you will lose your life.

Psychopaths are very, very mentally/emotionally/physically dangerous. You are on the right path trying to learn. Do not ignore your intuition. A lot of us here did, too much, too late. If something inside you is saying something is wrong, listen to it! If you listen to a p, they will tell you nothing is wrong, everything is just fine.

Keep reading up on it. It may take a long, long time to determine if your boyfriend is a p. I can tell you this, the younger they are, the harder it is to detect. As they reach late 20's, mid 30's their p traits are blatantly obvious because they seem to be in the deepest, darkest throes of it.

Check out the Resources post on this forum, if you have not already done so. Read whatever books strike your fancy, go to the web sites mentioned.

It is hard to believe someone we love with all our heart is a psychopath, but it is harder yet to suffer the pain they inflict if you are right.

Best wishes, looking forward to your views on this forum.

Laura

Moved here from #2, it helps the flow of conversation and each thread can hold a lot of posts, Di.

Sunshine
(member)
10/07/02 02:09 PM

Hello again!

I was just perusing the posts again, and I saw a reply! Thank you so much. In reading this, I realized that I have left out some more information, although if I were to write down our whole relationship, it would be a novella.
Why did I threaten to leave a couple of times? Well, I was upset that one day he was in a bad mood, and decided to vent on me- verbally, and he said some rude things, and I felt that it was unjustified, and it was. He did apologize to me about it, and pointed out that I have railed on him too before, and that is also true. throughout my life the instinct to run away has always been present, and I have had struggles with it, but I try to catch myself now before I run now, ask questions later. He has never threatened to leave me, nor has he been physically abusive, but sometimes i don't like the way he talks to me, saying things like, "I take care of you", "you don't take care of me", "I work hard for a living" (who doesn't?) Him, him, him...

He also is secretive about money, like it's none of my business what he makes or does with his money and bills, and I told him I disagree..If he insists on knowing my bills, it's a 2 way street, and his justification is that I am the one who has had financial problems in the past, and he hasnt, which is true.

On his defense, he tells me he loves me every day, and is affectionate with me, and that he will marry me someday, but I tell him that if we do get married, prior to that we will be having some serious discussions, because I will not marry a man who won't play on an equal playing field. There is lots more, good and bad to say, but I will leave this for you all to read for now, and I welcome any more questions/comments.

=)

Laura
(member)
10/07/02 02:21 PM

Sunshine,

I already commented on your first post. Be sure to check it out.

The "come here, go away" you seem to have? There is an excellent book called "The Emotionally Abused Woman" by Beverly Engel, M.F.C.C.

I highly recommend it. As I stated on the Resource post on this forum, it even talks about Antisocials and what type of personality a woman has to fall for them.

As for being better with money? A decent person who is better with money than another will be happy to help that person learn what they know. A p will use it against you.

Laura

Laura
(member)
10/07/02 03:16 PM

Sunshine,

Forgot something about money. My p had money secrets too. In fact, our whole marriage revolved around counting pennies and we made over $50,000 a year. I could not for the life of me figure out why we had to count pennies all the time to buy milk, etc. The p blamed it on the high cost of living, taxes, etc. I fell for that. What he neglected to mention was his alleged secret gambling addiction that he no doubt had when I hooked up with him. As with all addictions, it escalated during the marriage. It had not been blatantly obvious with all that money coming in. But when I quit my job in 1999, our income dropped in half, exactly. He panicked. How could he gamble now and not be so noticable? After all, it was all on him now, the bills and such. So he bought lottery tickets by the 200/300 at a time with, get this!, money borrowed from payday loan companies! All behind my back, without my knowledge. He did not tell of his alleged gambling addiction, lottery playing, check writing, until AFTER the home was lost, AFTER Bankruptcy was on the horizon for me only (my name on most everything).

The p explained it like this:

"It snowballed". IT SNOWBALLED!!!???XX&&lll!! I end up bankrupt, my son lost his home too, loss after loss after loss and this pathetic, louse of a p equates it to a Snowball?! I guess so. If you pack a snowball with ice and throw it at someone, it is going to do a great deal of damage, huh?

Nevermind. "Snowballed" was a good description. Lol!

Laura

Post Extras:

operalover
(member)
10/07/02 03:16 PM

Thanks for answering the question about why you almost left a few times.

You reasonably told him that discussing bills and money should be a two-way street. His reply was that you've had financial troubles, while he hasn't.

Your financial state is irrelevant. It seems he's able to evade your questions with a cloud of confusion.

I don't know whether he's a P, but he is a tricky individual.

Sunshine
(member)
10/07/02 03:32 PM

Operalover-

I hear you, and I dont know how he does that, and I don't know how to pin him down either. It's like how I used to answer questions with a question. It sometimes is difficult to nail him on something, but other times he talks..Go figure!

One other thing I thought of, re; your post on "part one" He mentioned a couple of times when i was mad and thought of packing it in, "that it would be such a waste of 2 1/2 years" if I left or he sometimes says "so this has all been a waste of time of your and my time" what does that supposed to mean??!!

Sunshine


=)

At the time the I threatened to leave, granted at the beginning it was a lot of talk but I really didn't want to leave. I guess the it is also hard because I live in a new state and I don't have any family, and my friends live in other states. When I threatened and I did leave, I went to a hotel, and after a night alone, he called and we talked it out, and he convinced me to come back home with him. I know that empty threats make no sense, but that is something I did before, and I learned not to open my mouth about it again unless I have my bags packed and in the car.

Thank you Diane.. I didnt know you could add on to one post like that, LOL! it does make it easier

Dear Laura,

Hi. I've been reflecting on your writings and one of the things has been sticking with me all day.

The paragraph that states: "I will tell you mine, when I met the p, was obviously low self esteem, deep fear of being alone-not in a relationship as it were, and "needing" a man to validate myself". Then you go on to describe what I will call a "trophy" husband (although I think I remember from one of your other posts where you said he was toothless, so that knocks him down a bit. LOL ),and state "then I must be quite a catch. I just did not see it then. I thought I was just fine as I was. I was in denial about how desperate looking I looked to others. The P saw me coming a mile away."

Laura, I really appreciate your honesty here. And your generosity. Becaue you've hit upon a "truth nerve" with me. Its not easy to admit things like this. At least I don't think so, because its rare that I ever hear anyone do it. For me, it hurts my pride. Although now, at the point I'm at, my pride's been sooooo hurt I'm taking the attitude of "deal with it, Cherie". And I cry, feel like I'm dying and then its a little better. So here we are. All dealing with it one way or another. Sure helps to have the support. And the sharing. Thanks for being willing to do both, Laura.

Cherie

"Been down so long it looks like up to me". quote by Richard Farina.

Cherie,

"Been down so long it looks like up to me". quote by Richard Farina. I love this! Thanks. So very true after a p.

I just figure that in all my marriages (3 total, one at age 17 for 6 months, he left me for a "younger" woman! I have laughed about that for years, but it sure wasn't funny when it happened. I was 18 by then, she was 17. He married her and they had a baby girl. He met her at work at a gas station where he was a mechanic. She would stop in to get gas on her way to High School, he's married 5 times since me!; Marriage 2, lasted 11 years to my childrens father; Marriage 3, lasted 8 years to a psychopath; funny though, I divorced them all, well not hahaha funny, just odd, I guess)

Come to think of it, I could honestly say no man has ever divorced me. That sounds a lot better than "I've been married 3 times." I'm off the point, just another Laura story to stick in the memory archives.

To continue, as for being honest, I am willing to take my share of the blame in all those failed marriages. I even break it down to percentages. I give husband #1 a 50/50 break on that one; Husband #2 a 40/60 split, my favor; Husband #3 a 30/70, and feel I am being generous! Its my "who's most at fault for this divorce" gauge. I would have husband #1 to dinner any day of the week, and did stay friends with him until his dad died in 1991 and he moved out of State. 16 years after our marriage he moved. #2 is in my life still, as he is the one who "took" my son from me. We always had a love/hate relationship, the whole 11 years. Still do. Right now it is "hate". But, the children are his, so oh well. This one will always be in my life, if only through our children.

I am sorry that you feel so bad sometimes and cry and feel that you are dying inside. I understand completely. It is like being dumped (in my case) by the scum of the earth. If the scum of the earth dumps, then what does that make me?

Well, I will tell you what it makes me....it makes me too good for scum. It makes me too honest for scum. It makes me BETTER than scum, not worse. This p abandon guy knew he couldn't cut the mustard with me. I was everything he could never be from day one. I knew what real love was, because I'd been searching for it all my life and was never going to give up until I found it. I had work ethic, friends, family that loved me. I had talent (I write things, some have been published). I put 100% into my home, my job, my marriage, my children, unfortunately the children got put last a lot, due to the home and job(s). But they all love me and that is good. My children's father has a 29 year old daughter from his first marriage. She told me on the phone last Christmastime, that I "had a big heart, my intentions were good, and I meant well. That she HATES to clean because I cleaned too much!" I still care about her even though she was not mine.

Maybe thats it. I did the best with what I had to work with, from my upbringing. My intentions were always good with family, sometimes though it looked not so. I do have a big heart, something the p only pretended to have through words. Mine was real. My actions matched my words, even when my actions were bad. I was the real deal, not a fake. The p must have been pretty jealous of me for having qualities that he did not have, nor know how to have. Sometimes jealousy prompts us to do what we need to do to have what another has. With a p, the only thing they can do at all is observe goodness and mimic it.

I cry for doing my best, working hard, trying to be a good wife, apologizing to the p for my mistakes/failures as a wife, asking forgiveness of him, him granting it (lied!). I promised myself that for this 3rd marriage I would be a good wife, try hard to do right, be loving, kind, all the things a wife should be. He sabotoged me at every turn by his love being a lie, a con.

Yes, he has no teeth. I missed 4 1/2 days work at 2 jobs total over that teeth thing back in '94. I set the alarm every 4 hours to give him pain medicine, made liquid stuff for him to drink through a straw. I helped him up the stairs to the front door after the surgery and my dad sat with him while I went and got him a malt (Doctors orders to minimize swelling). I loved him even at age 26 looking like an old man, no teeth. Sometimes I missed kissing a man with teeth, but I never told him. I wanted him to love me if I lost my teeth. But when he abandoned me in '98, went to Georgia to be an over the road truck driver (or so he said), I asked him how I could ever count on him when I was in a nursing home or hooked up to tubes or something, since I was 10 years older, if I couldn't count on him to not abandon me when I was healthy, young and fine? He had no answer to that. Went right over my head then. No answer was the "answer" I was looking for. He would not give a hoot less, because he was going to be gone. He also took care of me when I had surgery's, cancer tests (many). He seemed to be really scared and maybe was. I believe his psychopathy worsened a few years into the marriage, as he approached 30.

As for Pride? My dad say's "pride gets in the way of everything. Pride is what causes people to miss out on so much."

I am sorry that you feel how you do about the pride thing. You have every right to be proud, to get your pride back. You survived a p! You are a better person than the p, always were, always will be. Yes, its hard. All of it.

Instead of asking what we lost, we must ask what we gained.
I know, for myself, I am not crying because someone that claims to love me is emotionally killing me. I am not keeping the blinds shut so the bill collectors think I'm gone. I am not answering the phone 5 times a day, just to hear "I love you". I'm not searching vehicles, drawers, billfolds, file cabinets, apartments, etc. to prove that the p is lying. I'm not doing his laundry, tripping on his shoes when I make the bed, listening to one more "I don't know, Babe, I forgot. I told you I have memory problems." Like remembering to not abandon your wife? I know he's not going to write bad checks on MY account.

Sometimes I am cleaning, scrubbing a floor on my hands and knees, and I hear "YOU CLEAN TOO MUCH." I'd bawl. Now I laugh. He KNOWS I'm cleaning on a Saturday, I KNOW he's lying to her 7 days a week. So I guess we both know the truth!

Regarding his teeth...one more time...the sad part is when he lies to someone someday, they can't knock his teeth down his throat!

My Journalism teacher in High School begged me to go to college and become a Journalist in some form. She said I had a "special talent" for writing. I told her no, I was getting married. Husband #1. Well, I am getting my writing ability back. I can write here with it and/or I can write the books, poems that I have started over my many marriages. The p robbed me of a lot, he could never take my talent to write, because that cannot be copied, you know, faked. All my life I wanted to be a book writer, now it is time. I will have the p to thank for that. If I were still with him, I would be in such an emotional state, that my writing would never happen. God gave us talent to share, not to keep to ourselves. I have good things to share and with the p, all I could think of were bad things.

Cherie, you will get through this. I will get through this. We all will. If we did not know what it was like to be sick, how could we ever appreciate being well? This forum helps me so much. More than anything else I've tried since the p, or with the p. I honestly believe it is God that brought me to it. I did not have a computer, my oldest son gave me his old one just this year. I never could have purchased one at all.

I like the song, "Angels among us", I think it is called. It is so true. God does send someone when we are at our lowest point. It may be a smile, a kind word, a phone call. He also sends us computers! A friend at work said "God has something special in mind for you Laura, I just know it." He said to pray on it and it will be answered. I hope it is my writing.

Remember, the p is scum. Not you. Please try to find some pride in yourself, find the goodness and do good things. You do good and good will come to you. In God's time, not yours. You were with evil and evil is gone.

There is a man at work that has little money. His shoes are falling apart. His son found them in a dumpster when they were brand new. He has had toes amputated due to health problems. He never, ever, ever complains. He said they have been a real good pair of shoes. I want to buy him a new pair so bad, and I will eventually. He will be so happy, I can't wait. I'm hoping to come up with the money in the next few weeks. I spent thousands on a evil p who did not deserve one dime, it makes my heart pound with anticipation to do something for a good person that really would appreciate it and not expect it.

Yes, I'm getting well. Thank you, and thanks to all of you who post/reply. You are all part of the reason I have come this far in such a short time. Bless you all.

Laura

I read your responses, and thank you very much. It is such a scary thing, and I commend you for being a survivor.
My relationship with "B" was/is an intense one, we hit it off right away, and were pretty serious thereafter. He moved in with me,(he relocated) and he helped to support me while he was looking for a job, and was the perfect "househusband" cooked, cleaned, romantic, etc.
He's still a sweet guy, and we very much enjoy eachothers company, but like I was saying theres just something that bugs me. I was bad one day, and I was snooping in his stuff and found a bunch of porn, and I don't like it, and I can't confront him on it, cause he'll know i snooped.
When i get mad at him, he always throws stuff in my face of all the rotten and crappy things that I have done to him in the past, and even though it's unfair, he's right.
Jobwise, he's been with the same company for 6 years (we ended up moving from my state to his) and he has perfect credit. He like to bring up sometimes that he should be afraid of me leaving him because I have been married 2 times before, and hes never been married.
I don't know what to do, i wish there was a test I could take to determine if he's a P or if we just have issues, but hearing peoples stories helps me a lot, and advice to me is priceless.

I added the above to the thread list, as I thought that I had to write back to the person who posted the prior thread. Anywho, I get it now, and it is just a continuation of this saga.

Operalover-
I appreciate the information on the link. I will check it out. As far as why I snooped, it was because I was feeling insecure that he may be cheating on me (I have had that happen to me in the past a couple of times, with other men) and I thought I might dig up some incriminating evidence. No, he has not given me any indication of him cheating, and although he leaves for work very early in the AM, he comes home to me every night. He tells me that I am the only one for him, and if he didn't feel that way, I wouldn't be with him. I find it so hard to tell which is intuition talking, or if its my paranoia and insecurity. that is what scares me most.
As for the stealing/lying, I don't get it at all. we are talking about a pack of cigarettes, and he knows that he just has to ask, and I would gladly share them, which made the red flag go up, cause it was a weird behavior that he exhibited.
When I go to bed at night, I feel so torn, because I love him, I always have, and I want to get to the bottom of things, and find out what the future holds.
-Sunshine

operalover,

Gosh, are you a therapist? You are so right on target its unreal. Maybe because I'm living it, your looking at it from a neutral point of view. Yes, yes, yes. Cleaning, too clean a home to cover for my low self-esteem, bad feelings about myself. To cover for bad things I've done, people I've hurt or have hurt me, etc. I know this, have for about 15 years. If "they" see my very clean home, they will not look at me. Perfection on the outside, not perfect on the inside. This does have a whole lot to do with my mom and I hate the fact I clean so much. It exhausts me sometimes and I have picked cleaning the home thoroughly over pleasure more times than not. Mom made us girls fold our towels perfectly, wipe up all water around the sink or the faucets would rust she said. One time I made my bed, about age 13 or so, and she said it was not good enough. She grabbed the bedspread and threw it on the floor and told me to do it again until I got it right. Another time she told me to clean out my "junk" drawer in my dresser. So I spent about 2 hours sorting, organizing, etc. She checked it, said it wasn't good enough and pulled the drawer out and turned it upside down and dumped it on the floor. I cried and cried, started over, the next time she looked, she said I did a real good job. Mom made us clean every Saturday, all our life growing up. My dad used to tell her to let us have some time to do something fun. She said no, they must clean first. Yes, obsessive/compulsive. I learned it. I hate it. Believe it or not, the room this computer is in is a pig sty now. Now I only clean because I have to, or things would get too gross. But when I was with the p, I would even clean under the frig/stove on a regular basis. I would clean about 10 hours every Saturday and about 12 hours during the week. I thought I was providing a good home for the p and my son. But I wasn't providing them ME, just like my mom did to me. Physically there, not emotionally. Yes, operalover, you are again on the mark. I hate to say thanks for pointing this out, but I must. Sad for me to admit about myself, but the truth.

p.s. With this new guy, I am not as obsessed. We actually do things or I try to schedule my cleaning when he is not available to me, so that he does not feel slighted. I learned by the p's words "you clean too much!", too, too late to make it up to the p.

Laura

Sunshine,

This is titled: "A sad ciggarette story...." (grab the tissue!)

My son (youngest of my three children) was about 11 years old, maybe 12, and my ex-p had started (another!) new job. The very day of the new job. My son had arrived home from school first, then the p. I arrived shortly thereafter.

I saw that the p had a new pack of ciggarettes. I smoke too, so asked him if he had maybe gotten me a pack also when he got that one?

Let the lies begin.....The p said "I got this pack at work today, Babe. I didn't have any money and the guy training me made a stop to deliver something. They happened to have a ciggarette machine there. He asked me if I wanted a pack. I told him I had no money, so he bought me this. I have to pay him back tomorrow. Can you give me $20 and I will go get gas in our vehicles and get us both ciggarettes, as long as I have $3 left to pay him back tomorrow?" Sure, gave him a twenty. No problem. P leaves to convenience store.

My son enters kitchen. "Mom?" What son? "He lied to you. I heard him talking to you from my bedroom. He lied." What do you mean son, lied about what? "When he got home from work he asked me if I had $3 for a pack of ciggarettes, that he had none left and really wanted a ciggarette. I told him I had my lunch money for school the next day, so he said if I loaned him that, when you got home from work he would get the money from you and pay me back."

P comes home. S--- hits fan. P apoligizes for using son as part of con/lie. "Don't know why I lied", typical cop out whole marriage. He lied because he wanted to. He lied because he hoped to get by with something. He lied because he's a liar! Well, I knew why then (liar), now I know more---Psychopath!!!

End of story.

Sunshine, I can't stress enough, its not the BIG lies that devastate our minds, its the little, tiny, insignificant ones that shake the very foundation of our perception of reality a lie at a time.

Make a rule...NO LIES!! NO EXCEPTIONS!!

Laura

Sunshine,

Reading your post again tonight. Something I noticed this time. Your boyfriend said that stealing (ciggarettes) wouldn't make sense? When I asked my husband 2 weeks before he left, if he was seeing someone else, he slammed his fork down (dinner time), yelled at me "If I were seeing someone else, why would I be here with you!!! THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!, (long, long pause), If I didn't want to be here, I wouldn't be here!!!"

No, it wouldn't make sense for him to "be there" with me, his wife of almost 8 years, if he had someone else. It also didn't make sense to me that he slammed his fork down, yelled like a maniac, paused to think how to finish it all, and abandoned me 13 days later.

He was busted, caught red handed and he had hoped it would all fall on me like a ton of lead bricks, instead of half a ton. He had to deny, deny, deny, or I might mess up the grand scheme of the devil. His intention was to carry out his carefully calculated abandonment without my knowledge, not with it.

So, one, if it doesn't "make sense" to you or to him, then it doesn't make sense. Its mind games. Two, life with a psychopath doesn't make sense. Finally mine was able to verbalize the word instead of acting the act of senslessness.

Also, when a liar is about to be busted, caught, they will react in denial, blame, or anger depending on how bad they want what they are lying about. They will turn the tables to the victim in some form or another. It is called deflecting or defusing. Anger will shut one up, usally. I was so shocked by his anger, I shut up. As he was banking on.

So be careful, very careful. If a real p does not want it to make sense, it won't. Unless they specifically say, "that does not make sense for me to do that to you", then you may have an honest mistake made. If they say, "that would not make sense!", then it no doubt means sense to you, but makes perfect sense to the p. He's the one lying.

Laura

I was thinking more about some of the things that scare me, but I am not sure if it a man thing or my own insecutiry. i mentioned before that I found a stash of porn of his, and I wasn't thrilled. I guess the first things that came to mind, was what else does he have that he is hiding, and secondly, is he chatting or communicating with other women on the internet. I have asked him before, but of course the answer was no. Maybe he is telling the truth, or maybe he is lying > I don't know, and what I don't know is driving me crazy. I have been cheated on before in the past, and I don't know why I always feel like I will be cheated on, but the porn, makes me feel umcomfortable..I mean we have a good sex life, so why does he still have that stuff?

-Sunshine

Sunshine,

Oh my!!! What a lot of good questions you have here. Stashing porn? Makes you uncomfortable, wonder what else he is hiding? We do not go into a relationship NOT trusting our significant other, we go into it trusting them. Then, if they prove to be untrustworthy in some little or big way, the doubt is there and stays there. What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

Once that person has "hidden" something from us, to protect us, protect them, or just because they can, it makes us wonder what else they are hiding. It opens up a can of worms full of suspicion i.e. "If they hid this or that, what else are they hiding from me?" Then your mind goes into the reality check thing. You are going back and forth in your own head trying to sort fact from fiction, or in the case of a psychopath...fiction from fiction. You know what is real, the p tells you its not real. Let the games and the doubts begin. This is what I talked about on an earlier post to you here. Its not the big lies...its the little ones that destroy our perception of reality a lie at a time.

Cheating on you or not? Only he knows. You suspect. You may only suspect because you have had it happen before, therefore EXPECT it to happen again. You may suspect because he is hiding porn from you and you equate a man into porn with a man who wants other women in any way they can, including cheating. He denies it, the cheating. Okay. Does he deny because he isn't, or does he deny because he is? It depends on what he stands to lose, what he wants to get away with and you be kept in the dark. It depends on if he's an honest man already. A liar is a liar is a liar. They do not "pick and choose" their lies. They are not capable of such. If they will lie about anything, they WILL lie about everything.

No man, in my experience in life, wants to be "caught" in a lie, any lie. They did not lie to get caught, they lied to get away with something and suffer NO consequences. They do not want to stop the behavior, be yelled at, suffer any for the behavior. As has been said on many posts here, they do not want to be in trouble with "mommy". Most p's have a hatred for women in their psyche, therefore the woman is their enemy, really. To have power over a woman, they cannot let the woman know she is their enemy. They have to love her to death, then she belongs to the p in every sense. Great sex? Yeah, me too. That was never, ever bad with my p. It worked in his favor too. Great sex, great husband. Great sex, to hell with everything he did outside the bedroom. P's are masters at what they do. They KNOW the emotional hook great sex provides. A women with doubts, low self-esteem or fear of abandonment will do anything, (and I mean anything!) for the man who provides great sex. If the sex is good, he must love the bejeebers out of her! So she must stand by her man, believe his lies, accept his excuses, tolerate his abuse towards her, even if it is not physical abuse, even if she does not see it as abuse. Because after all, Heaven in bed, Hell outside bed, Heaven in bed. It is a HOOK!, a trap, bait. It works, so why not??

Finally, and maybe most importantly, we get the same results when we pick the same type men. I will say this one more time. We get the same results when we pick the same type men. What qualities/traits/behaviors does this man have that he one's that cheated on you had? We cannot keep "picking" the same type of man to love and expect the outcome to be differant than the man before. We cannot stay in denial about that which bothers us, causes us to doubt our own mind, and makes us suspicious.

I have read all of your posts and the more I read the more I want to say RUN, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!! It sounds to me like you have found a p.

Oh, one more thing....you stated your mother was a p? I told my ex p last year, "I finally figured out who you treat me like, who you remind me of and it sickens me. You remind me of my mother!!! You do me just like her, tell me you love me, treat me like you hate me. Claim undying love for me and ACT like you wish I would die. Yes, man who doesn't pay BILLs, you are my mother!!!!" He left me 2 weeks later. He was caught, busted, found out. The game was over because I knew. He had to be with someone who didn't know. I had repeated history. Have you done the same?

None of this meant to harm you at all. You asked questions, these are my answers. If you stay with this man, it is certainly your choice. Sometimes it takes a lot to leave a p. We all know this. Leave, go back, leave, go back. The reality of a good relationship is that you never want to leave, neither of you. "Leaving" isn't even in the vocabulary. Good luck to you, it sounds like you have so many doubts and questions that needs answers. I hope you come to a conclusion/decision before you get destroyed though.

Laura

Laura-

Confusion is such a crappy thing. I feel like a fence rider some days. I wrote more about my mother the P and the Hell she caused me on another thread in response to "i wish I was never born".

i guess what makes determining what is going on with this man, is first and foremost I love him, and he loves me. You also asked about the similarities between him and the others who cheated...Good question!, but he for the most part is unlike them. I know he treats his mother and parents well, becuase we live with them- choice we made, so i could heal from the past.

Billwise, he pays all of his stuff, and sometimes he pays for mine as well, but I get sick and tired of him telling me at times,"see how I take good care of you?" I don't like hearing that, I mean if you do it, thank you, but don't throw it in my face!

There are days when he is so sweet to me, and loving and affectionate, and days when he says things that really peeve me off, and I do the same to him,I'm sure.

A couple of other things come to mind as well. He has said since we got together that he is going to marry me someday, and that he is not the one who thinks about leaving, it's me (true) Is this lip service? I try to pin him down, and he always says why am I in a rush(good question) and he will propose when I least expect it (probably) He talks about the future, and I am a part of it, I just wish I felt more secure about it.

He says he is sorry for the things I have gone through with other men, but he is not like other men, and would never intentionally hurt me.

One other thing I want to throw out there.. He likes to say a lot, "I'm not a liar". have any of your P's ever said this quote?? to me, if you keep saying "i'm not a liar" you really have something to hide...

-Sunshine

Operalover-

About the "i'M not a liar" most of the time it is the context of whatever we are talking about, so it's not "out of the blue", but sometimes I feel like, why even say it? you know?

I was doing more digging..I know it's wrong but I had an opportunity, and I took it, and I found a couple of email "buddies" that were females in another state. He has told me before that he doesn't talk to females, and "deleted" his buddy list because of me...well, it seems to still be there, and I have no idea when he chats with these girls...I hate it, I really do, and I guess by looking around for proof, I get more angry when I stumble across it. It makes sense that he may talk to these women when he gets up at 300am before work, and that would be perfect because where these women live would be 900pm.

I don't know if I should even bother confronting him with the info, because besides me looking crazy, he'll know I got into his computer, and won't he just deny it? I mean these women are 6000 miles away, but to me if he is chatting up those women, its cheating. I do not know anything about what the nature of their friendship or relationship is, but I still don't like it.

He was asking me earlier this evening about what was wrong, and yes I was in a rotten mood, and I kinda blurted out that he'll probably cheat on me and leave me some day (feeling sorry for myself) and he said he was sorry that I have low self-esteem, and I am the one talking about him cheating/leaving, not him.. true...

Operalover, I feel so sick and confused, I don't know what to do

-Sunshine

Sunshine, I could be way offbase, but my sense of it is that you have issues that are
impacting the relationship. I am NOT a professional (so take this feedback with that in
mind), but, in my experience (almost all of it with a psychopath), a psychopath's victim's
issues never, ever get a chance to actually make an impact. This is because the
psychopath is creating so much overwhelming distraction, crisis and chaos that the victim
is occupied 24-7, dealing with that. Generally, the victim's head is spinning too fast to
focus on vague fears.

I am not saying your man is Prince Charming. I don't know if he's a good man, or if he's
right for you. I am not even SURE he's NOT a psychopath. But, I think your issues are
in there, along with his, and this tends to suggest a nonpsychopath relationship (in my
view).

I hope, for your sake, this is the case. Don't feel at all bad about having (emotional)
issues, we all do. I am sure your boyfirend has some, too. Did you say whether or not the
2 of you have done any counseling? If you are 2 normal, only relatively screwed-up
people (meaning the boyfriend is NOT a psychopath), this may help you get some of your
issues (both yours and his) resolved.

And, if he IS a psychopath, he will attempt to psychologically murder you, in counseling,
and that will tell you something, too. He will beome someone you don't recognize, in
counseling, and he will subtly portray you as somone you are not.

Hope this helps. kris

Sunshine,

Okay. More questions and boy howdy do I understand why you have so many! Been there, done this. I will answer this time only in relation to my experience with my ex-p.

Love each other? I loved the p with all my heart. More than any man ever. He represented himself to love me more than even that. I never in my life dreamed he would cheat on me, because he promised me he wouldn't. He is a liar. My first husband, who left me for another woman, never promised me he wouldn't cheat on me. They both cheated on me. There is no cut and dried answer to this one. All men are differant in their cheating ways.

My p hated his mother until he married me. I could not understand hating your mother, so he came around and started loving her. He worshipped his father because his father is an Enabler/Rescuer of the p. Bails him out of all messes, sympathizes with him, condones his p actions, provides him a roof over his head when he is between victims. He talks lovingly of his siblings to them and about them. He uses them for money, rides, sympathy, furniture, anything he can use them for. Then he professes to "love" them. They are getting duped willingly.

Pays all bills? Mine did not, obviously. He would with stolen money though. Or my money. Or my parents money. Sometimes his money, or everybody would have caught on that he was a p.

Days when he is really sweet to me...yes, I had those days too. 8 years of them. If I had asked him to kiss my stinky feet, he would have. According to the p, he thought I was perfect in every way. He called me all the time during the day to tell me he loved me. He left me notes by the tons saying things like, "I kissed your cheek before I left for work. I hope I didn't wake you. I just can't leave without telling you goodbye. I know I sound like a broken record, but I love you more than life itself." Yet, he lied to me about everything from the night we got together, right up to the night before the final abandonment. He cheated on me for 8 years. He abandoned me 3 times. He was a criminal. He job-hopped. He pawned stuff he did not buy/own. But, man how he loved me! I told him many times he should love me, I was his favorite victim. The man not once hit or called me a bad name. Not once. But he beat me to death physically and emotionally, basically with his lies, lies, lies and more lies, abandonments and criminal activity. He abused me to death, plain and simple. An insideous form of abuse, the most! Subtle, conning, cunning, manipulative, planned, orchestrated, acted. ALL AN ACT of love. I even told him many times he could get an Acadamy Award for acting. Now I'm sorry I did because it only fueled his psychopathic ego.

Talk about the future? We did too. The "home" he would get me and my son into again some day, since he cost us ours. The trip to Silver Dollar City that we were going to take for 8 years. The honeymoon we never had. His biggest dream, his words to me, was that he would "rent a limo, buy me flowers, take me to the best restaurant in town, then to a wonderful hotel." Lol! We went to 3 movies in 8 years at the $1.00 a ticket movie house. Why did I not get a vacation, another home, a big fancy night out? Because I couldn't afford it, thats why. I would have gotten it if I would have paid for it. P's tend to make you a part of their fantasy life. They include you in their grand plans, its part of the seduction and charm. I thought all this would happen eventually and all I got was older and tossed out like trash.

Proposing marriage? Some men do like to surprise the prospective bride. Some men would prefer the woman ask them, so they do not get rejected. Some men will not buy the milk when it is already free. Some men will tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Some men are terrified of commitment but are able to talk about it like they are not. I will not give my opinion of your man on this. I have it, but will keep it to myself. Having been married to a psychopath and not knowing it makes me a poor judge of people, usually I am wrong.

Sorry for things you went through with other men? My p told me "I am not like the others. I will never, ever do to you what they did." He made good on those words too. He did so very much more than they ever thought of doing if they all had put their heads together trying to figure out how to do me in! All the things he did were not the same as them, because he was a psychopath! He did evil things, heartless things, sneaky things, criminal things, inhumane things, devil things, ICK, I get sick just thinking about his sorry a--! Sorry. I just had an anger moment.

Finally, "I'm not a liar." This is what he said for 8 years solid..."I'm not lying, Babe, honest." "I swear, I'm telling the truth." "I would not lie about loving you, not ever." "I lie some yes, but never about loving you." "I don't know why I lied, I need help." "I've always lied." "I was afraid you wouldn't like me if I told the truth." "I don't know why I didn't tell you." "I SWEAR, I'M NOT LYING!!" "I might as well lie, you never believe me anyway." "You'll never love me or trust me, so you might as well consider me dead."

An honest person does not need to use the words "lie" or "lying" in conversations. What need would one have to tell a story and begin or end it with "I'm not lying, not a liar, etc." If they do that, in my opinion, it would be out of guilt for lying. One lie told, one lie tolerated. Two lies told, two lies tolerated. Pretty soon, the whole entire realtionship turns out to be a lie.

I would not want to be you right now. Loving somebody so much and wondering if they are a p. I did not know a psychopath was anywhere but in prison, until about 6 months before my marriage was ended by the p. I am also envious of you because you know about psychopaths now, not later. I hope for your sake he is not, but I do agree with other posters here, there are some things in the relationship that you both may want to work on.

Best of luck to you, Sunshine

Laura

Laura, Operalover-

I am losing sleep by the buckets! I just started a new job too. I know that I have some emotional issues going on here, and no matter how logical I try to place things, I still have anxiety attacks.

I got to thinking again about those email "buddies" I would swear that he told me that he took them off his buddy list a while ago, but there they still are. Just thinking about it really pisses me off big time, and my mind runs amuck just imagining what their conversations must be. Maybe cybersex, maybe not a thing, but my mind thinks the worst, and I hate it. I have been getting so little sleep. My body now gets up when he does at 3am, and he tells me to get back to sleep, and I try to explain that I just get up when he does, and I lay in bed and read so he can do his thing in getting ready to go to work. I know when he gets up he doesnt spend a lot of time on the computer, and I am just assuming that he may be talking to these girls at this time, as I said before it would be 900pm where they live. Maybe my getting up when he does deters him if he is doing something illicit, or maybe its my overactive imagination.

May I pose this question. Did your P's tell you they were going to marry you early on in the relationship? If so how long before they actually put their money where their mouth was? I know he has asked me why I want to put a time frame on this marriage/proposal thing, but on the flip side how long do normal men go from talking about it to actually doing it, and if he is SERIOUSLY thinking marriage, then what up with the other females online?

Also, during my quick perusal, I also found some bookmarks for free nude pic's of women. Am I to be freaked out by this? Does this mean he is unhappy with me? He says he loves me just the way I am, but I am not these thin fit women, nor am I a fat cow, but I could stand to hit the gym. We both have backslid on the fitness thing, but I dont go drooling at mens sites or chat with men online, so why the double standard? i love him for all that he is, so why does he have to look outside?

I hope to god I get some better sleep tonight than I have done in the past few weeks, but somehow I doubt it. Thank you again everyone, I truly appreciate the advice and information that you share.

-Sunshine

Sunshine,

You can't judge a bookmark by its cover. Or can you? The problem with this porn thing seems to me to be that it bothers you. If it bothers you, then it is something that you probably do not want in your life? Porn. It would bother me too. I find it disrespectful of women and simply cannot understand the need if one is happy with the woman they chose to be with. I know that some men would say it was normal, okay, a "man" thing, but so is scratching one's self, if you know what I mean, and I don't think any man I've ever dated or married would appreciate it if I suddenly put my hands in odd places in public and scratched. They might be offended. Lol! In other words, if it is an offending behavior to you, then it it something that you wish not to have to tolerate. It doesn't really matter if it is porn or the fact that you are always, always the one who takes out the trash...it is something that bothers you, and will continue to do the same until something changes. You can't change his porn thing, so you can learn to tolerate it, try to change his porn thing and no doubt fail, or deem it intolerable and put your fishing pole back in the water. OR, you can share your feelings with him about how it bothers you, ask why he does it, decide if his answer is something you can live with and go from there. If he is honest, he will tell you exactly why he does it. You may not want to hear his answer, but at least you will have the information you need to proceed in some direction. Right now you are doing all the figuring out of why's/why not's. If you are the only resource of information, you don't have all you need to know to make a decision. It takes two to make a relationship, it takes two to keep it going. You need his input. He may offer to give it up since it bothers you. He may not. No one can predict the outcome, but it will keep bothering you, and if he doesn't know it is, how can he have the chance to stop?

E-mail Buddies? We all know relationships start with words. Hi, how are you, would you like to go out sometime. They can and a lot of times do, end in marriage. Therefore, any speaking to a member of the opposite sex by our significant other is scary. Many would call it possesive and jealous. I call it realistic. Maybe I met him on the net? Maybe not. Maybe I met him at the grocery store and am afraid he'll fall in love when he goes to the store without me. The reality of it is, when we love someone SO much, we are scared to death to "lose" them in any way. Even their conversations belong to us. Is this a bad thing? Can be. It usually backfires and we lose them to someone else. We can love, but we can't babysit. But, and I stress but, I do not think that there is anything wrong with our significant others having friends of the opposite sex, as long as they include us in that friendship. That does not mean we have to be on the other end of the phone when they talk to them. It just means that it would be respectful of us if they said, "I'm going to call -----." Then we can say, "Oh, tell him/her I said hi." Why? Because they are being open and honest. People who are hiding things HIDE them, they do not bring them out in the open for others to see! My p had tons of women during our marriage. He lied about them all. He "did not work with women, talk to women, look at women, even know another woman existed" because of his undying love for me. Even when they called our home (my number before I married the p, in my name not his, UNLISTED). But he talked his way out of it each time. I never found out what a womanizer he was until the phone rang. I once got all the information I needed from the woman who called, the "truth" of the whole mess, because as I told the p, "she doesn't want to have sex with me, she'll tell me the truth!" I was right too. Okay, I didn't say "have sex", it was filthier than that. My favorite thing to say to the p was "They can't be lying, they have nothing to gain by it. You do."

Marriage, when? Husband #1 asked me to marry him, somewhat of a surprise to me. Dinner, champagne, ring, the whole bit. Bigger surprise to me when the garden for the wedding was booked, the groom and his attendants clothes were purchased, the dress of my dreams had been found, and he went out to a bar, got drunk, took a dancer to a lake, got horizontal, and didn't go home all night. Wedding canceled. June wedding too. Married the guy in October anyway, small church wedding and he left me for a "younger" woman. Me 18, her 17! Husband #2, my childrens father. Went out with him on Thanksgiving night the first time. About 2 weeks later I went to lunch with a truck driver. Husband #2 and I worked at the same place. When I returned from lunch, he called me on the phone and asked me to step into a storage room. I did and he said something like, "I can't believe I'm saying this, but when I saw you leave for lunch with that guy I got so jealous, well, would you marry me?" I said "yes." We married January 19th. So November what 24th? to January 19th. Stayed married 11 years, had three wonderful children.

Husband #3? The Psychopath!! I asked him. I said, "I'm not playing house. I'm too old to play house. I will never, ever live with a man again unless we are getting married, for sure." Then I said, "so, if you want to live with me, do you want to marry me?" He said, "would you?" I said, "would I what?" He said, "marry me?" I said, "Are you asking?" He said "yes." I said "yes." How long did that crap take? We got together March 24th, that conversation took place March 31st!!!!! We married August 7, 1993.

All men are differant. If you want marriage and he isn't ready, nothing will make him ready. As I said before, I have my opinion on this, am still going to keep it to myself. One things is for certain, marrying a man doesn't make them love you any more, or any less. I don't think so anyway. For me, I do not plan to marry again anytime soon. Who knows, maybe the guy I'm with now will someday say to me, "I'm too old to play house" and I will be in the shoes of the men I wanted to marry. Or maybe not. Time will tell. Marriage is not a bad thing. Its the hell and the Divorce after that bites. Like I tell people, I'm not afraid of flying, I'm afraid of crashing. (So I don't fly)

I have never been Lady Godiva myself. I'm okay. Blonde, small framed, told I look way younger than I am. But I will tell you this, the men I have been with, loved, married, etc. were no movie star looks either. They were human just like me with too much of this, too little of that. I could lust after a star, but who would I be kidding? What are the chances? I could drool over pictures of hunk men in magazines and have wet magazines. I prefer reality. The real deal, even if the real deal is not the super good looking, hunka hunka love deal. I'm grounded, not living in fantasy land. So, if those guys I had wanted a model/star, then they need to move on and have it, or take a number and get in line behind every other man on Earth for it. I'll find a man who loves me just the way I am, or should I say, let a man find ME.

Hope you get some sleep. I sure know what thats like. The less sleep we have, the more our thinking ability suffers.

Laura

I want to jump in here on this porn thing. And please forgive me if I don't speak to
everything so far written. I have done a little skimming because there is too much to read.

My mate of 30 years was a psychopath, and he was deeply into porn. From my readings, I
have gathered that all psychopaths eat, sleep, breathe porn. Since I experienced this, let
me describe my p's porn obession. I think there may a qualitative difference between his,
and a "normal" man's use of porn.

P introduced porn into his relationship with me as soon as he knew I was hooked, and
before we were married, about 4 months into our love affair. He did this very subtly by
picking up a Penthouse while we were out together, and then falling into bed and opening
the mag when we got home. We started reading the Penthouse forum, together, and you
can guess where things went from there. It was a subtle shift to keeping a stack of these
things under the bed. Verbal fantasing became part of our sex life. Visual fantasy, too. It
was short step from there to "enacting" fantasies, which involved other women. This
phase lasted only briefly because it made me sick at heart. I have no apologies. I was 20
years old. I learned my boundaries through trial and error..You can guess, correctly, that
the boundaries I discovered were completely disregarded by the p. When I refused to
participate any further, he took women to his bed while I was asleep in it.


Since p also cheated on me, and in the most devastating ways, with my friends and
neighbors, porn became a sore issue between us. One of his attempts to blame me for his
cheating was based on "our" indulgence in porn. Thus, I was soon sickened by p's porn
addiction, and attempted to get him to give it up. None of my requests that he stop
verbally fantasizing about other women, while with me, ever effected a change. He might
stop, briefly, but was soon doing it, again. During periods of intense pain between us,
after discovering cheating, on his part, he would promise to give up porn (in an attempt to
get me to believe that he was changing profoundly), and I would discover hidden stashes
of it.

P had so much porn, at one point when he was renting a barn for storing product which he
sold, I went there and discovered moldering stacks of it enough to fill a small garage from
from floor to ceiling. He spent almost all of his time at this rented barn, looking at porn.
Typically, he kept it in every room in the house which he used. At the last place we lived
together, his bathroom closet was filled with it. It was under his bed. In his bureau
drawers. Under the living room sofa. In the garage. In his truck. In his backpack. And
in the barn.

The central issue in p's life is porn. He also kept movies When my daughters were about
12 and 14, I discovered them up, in the middle of the night, watching p's porn movies.
The one they were watching was a lesbian film. I had not realized they were even in the
house, but discovered then that there was a stack of them next to the vcr. I made p put
them far away, ro so I thought. For the next many months, I discovered p up in the
middle of the night watching the movies, repeatedly. This was during a time when we
were struggling to not lose our home to foreclosure, p was a salesman working on
commission, and every minute of productivity counted.

I just wanted to present a picture of the p’s relationship to porn. I don’t like the stuff
very much, but this has alot to do with my personal experince with it. I cannot know how
I would feel if I had lived a different life. I would probably tolerate it (though not be
thrilled). I think this is true because I did tolerate during times of realtive normality, in
my marriage, naively wanting to believe that p’s relationship to it had become more
normal.

p.s. In the mid eighties, p showed up at my best friend's house (best friend and major support system for the past 4 or 5 years), clutching a handful of porn. He told her that he had been looking at porn and fantasizing about having sex with her, and he was there to have sex with her. She told him, "kris really, really loves you. Don't blow it."

He told her, "I really, really love Kris, too. This has nothing to do with her. I like variety."

Puke.

Like I was a variety of cabbage. One that he liked, but not the only one. That word "variety" echoed down through the years, for me. Sometimes, especially after cheating episodes which I discovered or suspected, I would get a sense of my privates as a "variety" of some produce item, lined up in a deli, along with other "varieties". Just that part.

No woman should ever feel that way about her body, about herself. The male p reduces women to parts of nonhuman commodities.

operalover, lol. I'm different that way. I don't like variety. I like to come to love and cherish the very specific, the one and only, parts of the man whom I love and adore. I like to come to the place where these are the only "parts" which will do for me, the only ones in all the world.

At least being with a psychopath led me to define my likes, needs, self, very clearly. I got to experience from what was done to me, and felt bad, from what hurt and sickened me, what was not good for me, or really (I believe) for anyone. In a very real sense, p's inner rot and the pain it caused me burned alot of rot out of my own soul. There are alot of mistakes I didn't have to make because I experienced the spiritual fruit of those behaviors through my marriage to the rotten tree.

Hi Kris,

Your posts on this subject will lead me to another thread. As I related before, his latest revealation cemented my resolution to run to Dodge. Beenthere

P.S. How are you doing on your book?

Hi been there, I've been extremely busy, lately, and was out of town for a while. I've been skimming the posts. Can you direct me to the thread where you wrote about his latest revelation?

My book is not getting sold as fast as I would like. I had a close encounter with an agent, recently, got to second base, but it wasn't a home run. So I'm still plugging.

Also, I just spent several weeks dealing with a computer crash. I don't think I have your e-mail address, anymore. Sigh.

Well, I'm glad to hear you are losing the loser.

kris

Hello All-

It is the sleepless one writing again! LOL I was hoping that sheer exhaustion would kick in by now and I would be wiped out, but these thoughts of unfaithfullness just infiltrate my dreams(nightmares, really) as well as my waking hours.

Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive here, but I question his every move and motive. I have invested a lot emotionally with this man (haven't we all, ladies?) and even in coming home this evening, I was feeling a little amourous, and tried to initiate a little lovin', and he kinda shoots me down, asking if I was through with "that time of the month" and I know its God's cruel joke that we get a little more aroused smack dab in the middle of the cycle (sorry if I'm being gross) Anyway, he was sort of into it, then tells me he is mentally scarred thinking of "that". Im' thinking no men turn down sex no matter whats going on down there. Granted I got my feelings hurt, and I got snippy and snidely told him that since I couldn't get off, at least he could, and he said that thats not how he looks at it, so I snapped back getting off is getting off, and he got mad, and said not with him it isn't.

Soo..I stomp off feeling really rejected, and in my sleep deprived mile a minute mind, I am thinking he can turn down sex with me cause he is finding pleasure in other ways or with someone else. Mad? Hell yes. Am I right? I HAVE NO CLUE!! What I do know for sure is that he comes home every single night at the same time after work, and he has told me time and time again that he is a creature of habit-and I will give him that much as far as being consistent, but I almost want to ban the internet for men talking to women. I know that he would get mad (and I have seen it too) when he saw my buddy list with "guys" on it. These "guys" are my friends, who are gay! So, what is up with the double standard? I even tell him who they are, and there are only 2 at that. What he does is "his business" I hate that and he knows it. I dont want to sound like a clingy, insecure woman to him, and he knows me, and he knows it, and I do too.

Okay, the marriage thing. I kinda brought it up to him again this evening in a work related kinda sorta way just to feel him out, and he said that I need to get my s*** together and he has to get his s*** together (we have a rather unique living situation at the moment) and move out first and pay bills, etc before even THINKING of getting married (he proceeds to bring up I have been married twice, blah, blah why am I in a rush, blah,) and i told him I didn't want to get married next week, and there is such a thing as an ENGAGEMENT beforehand. I think he conveniently blocked that last part out. I almost feel like moving and getting my own apartment after I do get some of my "%@#$$
together, just to show him, i will not just "play house".

This isn't as easy as pie, because I lost my job in the winter, and I only just got a job, and lots of debt, and no savings. Since my mother the P and her freak of a husband stole my daughter, and managed to convince everyone they talked to how bad I was, I have no one to rely on for support, and thats okay, because the one wonderful thing I have learned from this whole mess that snowballed it all,and from his wonderful parents- I can stand on my own two feet now and be okay, and I am NEVER going to be caught with my pants down again. It is such a horrible feeling, and i dont want to go back to that place again.

I welcome questions if you have any pertaining to my mother, the definite P, her husband who I wonder what his motives may be with my daughter, or questions about me, or my relationship.

Being able to communicate with this forum helps me to get things off my chest without making a fool out of myself in front of "B", and I like the things you ALL have to share, insight, past knowlege, and even advice. i get a nice pick up with great quotes, like Laura with love me for who and what I am or get in line with the other men wanting models, and stars. so true!! I know I didn't get that quote verbatim.

I am going to try to wind down, and go read, and pray that I dont get up at 3am with "B" who knows, maybe it will subconsciously discourage any probability of chatting with women, but I doubt it since he closes the door to the computer room. =(

Oh yeah, as far as monitoring the computer, I am not the master account holder, he is, so I can't get at anything..I think. I am not the most computer savvy person out there, so if there is a way, let me know. we also have separate cell phone #s, and I got ahold of his bill once, and tried to be a P.I. and see how many same number calls he was making/receiving, and I found one that stood out a little more than the others as far as how many times the person called/or placed the call. Anyway, I wrote down the number and called it from my cell, and a man picked up! LOLOL I had to fake an accent really fast to cover up saying I had a wrong #. He had told me before that he also uses the phone for business calls, and I guess that time he was telling the truth! Ah well, If I can't laugh at paranoia, i can't laugh at all.

Good night all, I look forward to reading tomorrow

-Sunshine

Hi Sunshine, if you still think your partner is a Psychopath perhaps we should continue chatting, however, it is my goal to make sure we stay with the topic of the forum.

Hi everyone, I am away from home right now and haven't been online alot, but came back and was reading posts. I have a question. At one time, when P and I were in a passionate state, he said, "I want to wear you", another time, he said, "I want to be you". I thought these things were unusual at the time, the first one scared me, but since then I have learned adn read about p's and about how they relate to their victims.
I think that these two statements might be a "show" or a red flag that I missed. Has anyone here heard something like this from their p? I had never heard this type of thing from any man before the p, and thinking back on it, it seems strange.
What do you think?
-Leti

Hi Leti,

I do recall my p saying that he wanted to be like me, he was always saying that he wished he could be like me in that I was friendly, outgoing and very good with people, especially in my sales position. He was always amazed at how many friends I had and how long they had been my friends (10 yrs+). Even after we split up he would send emails saying how lucky I was to have such a great support system and unlike him, he had no friends and actually blamed me for taking them away from him.

Funny thing and may be off the subject a little, but when we had sex and after he did his thing, he would always go into fits of hysterical laughter, really uncontrollable, I used to think it was cute but also very odd. I think now that may be it was like he was getting really inside of me, like becoming part of me. When we were in Cabo the first time after we had sex, he said romantically (yeah right) that we became one after making love. We were soul mates.
I know there were other things he said more in line with what you are saying but I cant recall them right now. When I do I will post again.

Deb

"I want to crawl inside of you and live there forever."

"I never want to be anywhere but inside of you."

kris and coreysin, thanks for your responses, they are pretty consistent with what my p did. he also admired my ability to get along with others. he, after the initial charm wore off, was pretty tactless with everyone and also was unable to understand what he did/said to tick them all off... it was sad, and now i recognize it was due to his lack of empathy.
-leti

Leti,

"I wish I could be like you."
"I wish I could make friends as easy as you do."
"I wish I were outgoing like you."
"I wish I had your determination."
"I wish we could have a child together."
"I wish we had gotten together sooner so we could have been married longer."
"I wish I had met you before all those other women."
"I wish I could give you everything you deserve."

He became me.
He made a friend. A woman.
He became outgoing, by going right out of my life.
He became determined to carry out his calculated plan to abandon me.
He did not need a child of ours, hurting a child of mine was good enough.
Had we gotten together sooner, he could have left me sooner.
He has now "met me" before all those other women.
He gave me everything he thought I deserved.

Yes, the p sure "wished" a lot. If I had a penny for each time he made a wish, well.....! All I wished for was that he wasn't a p. My wish was not granted. His wishes were.

Laura

Or psychopathic. Isn't that also the hallmark of psychopathy? The psychopath has no psychic boundaries, no self. He's a bowl of primordial soup. He longs to merge, while simultaneously fearing being swallowed up. His fear of this is so intense that he experiences it as life-threatening. Thus, his murderous tendencies (at the very least, psychic ones) towards his lovers. But this lack of self, and lack of boundaries also helps to account for his intensity, in the earliest phase of relationships. The initial impulse is to merge. Then the psychopath's own impulse turns to fear and hatred.

I want to qualify this statement. I do believe that, in the deepest experiences of real love, boundaries evaporate. Within THAT experience, a person experiences the universal, or God. In healthy human beings, this experience coms in moments, only, and then the "one" reverts into two. This helps to explain why someone may actually fall deeply in love with a psychopath. The victim mistakes the experience HE is having for the same one she is having. But the psychopath's experience is different. His everyday state of being is boundariless, which he finds intolerable. He thinks he may actually find relief in her boundaries, but soon the very thing he sought becomes a serpent, in his mind.

The words I quoted were from the "falling in love" period. P actually used to stick his head between my legs and push, saying he wanted to go inside and live there.

But don't lovers say these things? Bonnie Prince Charlie expressed his desire to be Camilla's tampon, but I don't think he meant it, literally. Or, at least, let's hope not. It wouldn't bode well for the future of England.

Yes, absolutely. This experience is often mistaken for limitless passion, by unsuspecting women. I am thinking of the movie "9 1/2 Weeks".

Yeah, if we had only known, at the time.

Kris, i don't want to break the flow and all that, but be aware that dear old Bonny Prince Charlie was a mighty different character than Prince Charles. I mean, whatever one might think of the latter- certainly his unfortunate comment attempted to convey nothing but humour, unfunny as it might be- the former was a real life destroyer and massive jerk. Sorry, nothing to do with the subject. Regards

Oh, I thought I'd heard Prince Charles called that. Sorry. I'm sure Prince Charles did not mean to convey anything, except to Camilla, but modern technology caught him, off the record.

Frankly, if I had been he, I'd have dropped dead of embarrassment.

Kris, Yes, so would I, and almost everyone. You have to admire the fact that he didn't, and then understand a bit why some people can do quite alright with the most public goof ups - (lets leave that unfortunate fellow out of it- he's certainly nice enough, given that he comes from about a thousand years of pure bred swine. I mean, it's not your average nice chap who takes a country for himself, and then wants, and gets about a hundred more. Of course, the acid test is that they can go on blathering about having been good guys all along, and, astonishingly, almost everyone believes them). Anyway Dianne will be getting on my case, so I should leave it, but just consider what the world believes, and wonder then that some people have the capacity to lie - of course, they will be believed. regards

BonnyR, I did admire Prince Charles for not dropping dead of embarrassment...it was the first admiration I ever felt for the man. I thought, "Well, look at the stuff he's made of. At least, he's tough."

But one could say the same of my psychopathic husband. He's weathered enough embarrassment to fell a horse, and I've never seen a sign he's felt any twinge of it.

I catch your drift about "the family". There may be some tendencies there; there are in most powerful families. At least a touch. Because there are 2 competing principles in life: love and power. Either one or the other is the highest principle, in a family. And then, it's a matter of degree, of course. But when power is almost everything, then there isn't much room for love.

I thank everyone who responded to the question on merging. What I'm really wondering is, do men/women who are normal, or at least not p's, say the same kind of things. None of the other men (3) in my experience ever said anything like that, and I know they loved me, and they were honorable men. Kris touched upon this about boundaries, and I am just wondering if non-p's say these things also, OL says yes they do, but then we began a discussion of Charles... what does everyone else think. Do "normal" people in love say this type of thing, or is it another "red flag" to look out for?
Thanks in advance for tolerating my denseness in this area...
-Leti