I am a 46 year old woman, living with my son, who will turn 7 next month. His dad is a true psychopath. It took me 14 years to understand. However devastating his deceit and abuse were at the time, it is now irrelevant, because I got away with my son in the summer of 2009 and we're doing fine. Also, if you are a victim yourself you can learn and take action. I'm not a victim anymore, because I have insight now. I guess, thanks to a psychopath, I have become only more human myself.

This is about my son.

I was not married to the dad, but after our child was born I signed to the father all the rights I as a mom have automatically. (I live in Holland.) I did this by my own initiative, because I did not at the time understand the nature of the father and because I was a fatherless child myself. These rights of his complicate matters now.
Before our departure, my son had no relationship with his father who was indifferent or absent.
My son was 5 when I had to surprise him by our sudden departure (flight), so my first concern was to fix, through our lawyers, an appointment for regular contact with his dad, to make his life as regular as possible.
I was wary, though, and contacted a psychiatrist who had once accurately suggested the dad "could be a psychopath" (at the time I took it for a weird joke!) and had turned to childpsychology. But he could not advise me, because he was seriously ill.

So my son's relationship with his dad started AFTER our departure.
He started making odd sexual remarks, but seemed to have fun and I ignored it, until one day he came back from his dad and accompanied these remarks with definitely unchildlike gestures and invitations. Even an adult has to LEARN this pornographic idiom by watching movies. He even mentioned his dad. I was so shocked that he said he had been joking and shut up. At that moment, he had not been alone with anybody else but my mom and his dad. Even though I still hoped that he had seen, but not done these things, I applied for help wherever I could.
Nothing much happened beyond applying. In the meantime, to find out HIS truth, I neither approved nor disapproved of his strange sexual behaviour and never asked questions. He always showed this behaviour in happy, cosy situations. Then one day, as I was cooking, and in no way leading him to this, he mentioned his dad in an unmistakable way, saying he did this with his dad and his dad did it to him, so I should do it too and dad said it was good for his body.

From that moment on, december 2009, my applications were taken seriously and I did not let him go to his dad anymore. I went to the police and to the AMK.(concerned with childabuse.)Both have tried to talk to my son, but he clammed up entirely. He was so resistant to talk about it and I knew enough, so I didn't bug him either about it. I only set him right about what is and is not proper social behaviour.
The police declared the father innocent and the accusation false. The AMK said suspicion could not be confirmed.
It went to court december 2010. The judge ordered an investigation (Raad van Kinderbescherming) and in the meantime ordered the child should have a fixed weekly contact with his dad, with a 3rd person. The 3rd person is the dad's girlfriend, who is as blind as I used to be.
This regular appointment makes our son very happy, because it is something definite at last and because he is fonder of his dad than ever.

These are the reasons I submit this post:

*I wish my child to be happy with a dad and I don't want to spoil his fun. But I cannot protect him by telling him what his dad is. He is such a loving and loyal child, as he should be, and he greatly resists anything else than that his dad is fantastic.
Maybe his dad will not try sexual abuse again, but I know his dad lacks the ability to change (like us, normal fools and jerks) and abuses every trust and confidence. Destroying trust, in whatever form, is the greatest psycholgical trauma. I know his dad is faking everything as he has a huge stake in good contact with his son because of the investigation. I also know his dad is able to, because in fact his girlfriend is doing the care and consideration. Once the dad feels safe, he'll abandon this effort with great relief.
At the same time, nobody has a greater stake in trust than a child with a parent.
I don't know to what extent the father might damage his son, but he will. Now he is grooming the child and covering up his tracks.

*I find that, whatever a person's profession, the only people who truly grasp the extent and the implications of a psychopathic personality are the ones with personal experience themselves. The few I have met actually, to my surprise, SPEAK MY SENTENCES. That is how specific this condition is. By now, at last, my son has started counselling and I have didactic support as a mom. But the counsellors, intelligent trained childpsychologists, keep projecting normal communication and relationship problems onto our situation, totally beside the point. They do not grasp the unimaginable and my explanations seem to impair my credibility. The kid and I are doing fine, my son has just had 4 of these saturdays with his dad and is very happy with his dad. Nothing seems the matter.

I have resigned myself to the fact that the only thing I can do is be a good mother which luckily turns out to be a most important task. By creating for him an environment full of trust and content, I hope to make him strong. I just hope, in spite of knowing.

Wendy,

I understand what you are going through. My child's father is a psychopath. My child is close to the age of your child. I absolutely understand how you are feeling!

First of all, cut yourself some slack. You managed to leave your relationship with the psychopath and that is fantastic! You have already done wonders for yourself and for your son based on that alone. Your son will not have to witness you being mistreated by his father. That saves him from so much pain. Do not minimize how much damage you have prevented by taking that huge step.

I was also a fatherless child. I overcompensated for this by desperately trying to foster a relationship between my daughter and her psychopath father. Her father was also indifferent, and absent to say the least, months on end with no contact. I hunted him down, relentlessly trying to stay in contact with him. I tried to pursuad him to be involved. I tried to guilt him into being more of a father. I maintained contact with the mothers of his other children, so that my daughter would know her siblings.

The years went by, yet he never changed. He continued to pull his great disappearing act. I never had a good explanation for my daughter as to why he would be unavailable for months at a time. I would call him and inform him of upcoming events for her (in school, church, etc.) Then I would sit and wait to see if he would even show. The disappointment that my daughter went through was more consistent than actual contact with him.

My story is long and the details are numerous. My point is that I UNDERSTAND. It is hard, or I should say more accurately, it is hell, trying to coparent with a psychopath. Our particular circumstances are unique, yet our pain is the same. The only thing worse than the devastation that man has caused me, is witnessing the pain he has caused our child. Like your son, my daughter absolutely adored her father. She enjoyed her time with him so much, that his repeated absences hurt her that much more.

I can share more of my story if you would like. Please feel free to share more of yours. Perhaps you will be comforted in knowing that I UNDERSTAND. If you are interested, I can share with you what I have learned so far. Feel free to ask specific questions. More than anything, please realize that you are not alone. Over here, on the other side of the world, I am sitting at my computer, logged on to this forum. I am reading your words, and I recognize some of them as if they were my own.

Dear Violet,

Yes, you really DO understand. Oh...thank you.....it means so much to me...thank you for your response!

This is an IMPOSSIBLE balancing act. There seems to be no right way to help your child deal with it. Compared to that, my own adult suffering at the time was so simple and straightforward!

I respect my child's love and loyalty but at the same time it makes him such a perfect prey.

Everything you have learned, I'd be very, very happy to know.

Today my son said a couple of times: when is it going to be saturday? How long will it take? Dad misses me so much.
I don't even have to explain to you (wow!) that his dad does not miss him at all: you know! How's that for manipulation! Pulling heartstrings!Callous deceit! And the kid is in it with his whole loving heart.
My son is a very kind, emotional personality, overflowing in enthousiasm and totally reticent about his sadnesses. I can't pry, only tell him I'm there to help, but he won't talk about his feelings, even if he could name them. He does tell some things about what he has done with his dad and the girlfriend and some things they say - enough for me to know the dad now has the operation going of creating a grand impression on the investigators who might come along any day now. It is one big faked act that began after it went to court and he couldn't do it without his girlfriend. She is sweet, kind for his son and does not understand what she is being used for. She is very happy to help and to make things better for everybody. (Of course.)

I'm not even interested in pursuing his dad, whatever he might have done. All I want is my son to be safe from abuse and all the subtle ways the dad has of making other people feel inferior and lose confidence in their own experience, and isolating them by demeaning all other relationships they have. (His favorite fantasy used to be leading a sect.) So if I'd be perfectly honest with myself: if I encourage my son to be with his dad, it is only to appear decent myself, hoping that that makes people listen to me instead of dismissing me as a vengeful ex and also to appease my own guilt. The dad I wish my son to have (any imperfect dad, but a dad who FEELS his sons exists independently) DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL.

I never ever speak ill to my son about his father, but of course he sees that I avoid contact and that I don't have any signs of his existence in our house except for himself. Since our departure this has been my strict policy: the dad has 3 ways of contacting me, which are adequate for necessary information about our son (what time to pick him up, what should he take along, when he'll be in hospital and for what). He can textmessage me. He can contact me by letter through his lawyer. He sees me at my door when he brings/takes our son or at out son's bedside at the hospital. I remain strictly wellbehaved and communicate only what is absolutely necessary (even the smallest detail about our life he turns into something nasty against me.) He cannot pass my frontdoor. I do not open the door when he comes unexpectedly. I do not speak to him on the telephone. He has found me so unyielding with these boundaries that he does not attempt to violate them. I've learned -this is a Dutch expression- that if i give a finger, he'll take the whole hand (and crush it). The only option in dealing with a psychopath, I find, is total non-involvement.

I really wonder about children. On the one hand, they are the hardest te deceive. On the other hand, they are most fiercely loyal. I often wonder what way my son will go. But maybe I know. My son can be discerning and critical with me, because he feels safe with me. I have often seen him react to his dad's callousness towards me, and even himself, with perfect unseeingness, as if it doesn't register, but unnaturally so.
Maybe I'm underrating his/our counsellors. Right away they found my son judges me in a mixed, realistic way: he sees the positive and the negative. He idealises his dad.

Is it possible for you to have any life besides this? It's not that I'm obsessed, we really do make a happy life here, a nice home and the mothers of the children he plays with happen to be great!!! Spreading happiness is the best weapon! But until this is resolved (and who says it ever will be) I can not even think of a boyfriend or finding work or going out or travelling. Things that don't serve solving this do not exist. (Except reading in bed.)

I hope these miles of text don't wear you down! I talk too much! (But I don't and won't think you do!)

and xxxxxx

the way the father looks at his son frightens me. as if he were an object. i can't bear to watch it too long.

Thank-you so much for sharing! It is mind-boggling. My psychopath. and I met only about 18 mos ago, so much pain and havoc in that time-frame, plus a marriage... but divorce straight ahead for me, and I am so very thankful and fully appreciative that I discovered the truth so soon. There are no children involved with us.

However, I have observed that, under my watch, he reconnected with his now 20 y. old daughter, after not seeing her for 18 ys... he made a huge 'play' for her heart. She took her time was naturally reticent, but he wore her down with appearances of normality thru 'me'. Almost as soon as we left, within a couple of months, he essentially dropped her like a hot potato. In that time, her only known and loved step-dad who had been her best parent growing up, was sadly and tragically killed. I see from what I know that he has dropped her and she is broken. A lovely, sensitive girl, that her mother, whatever her faults, kept her away from dad as long as she could, but obviously has plenty of problems of her own - mother and daughter are in slim contact at the moment. So she is left all alone in the ashes of her hear, hopes and dreams of longing for her daddy.

I pray for her, and hope, for her sake, he stays far away, long enough for her to fully get it. She is very smart and has had some counseling, I hope she is able to see it.

Ohhh...he must have had a purpose in mind for contacting her and then found she didn't have what he was looking for. And using you as a cover, to show normality.....all so familiar...
And you don't know whether she understands, or if her mother does..
How did you find out so...fast!!! (Or else, I'm just slow.)
How are you now?

Instead of asking how you found out, I could have read your posts, which is what I did, and again, I see another person speaking the same sentences I do. It is so weird, how can these psychopath people be so similar...and once you see, almost dependable in their one-dimensionality and predictability (if you are so lucky that that particular psychopath isn't terribly intelligent, or else sufficiently worn down by drink and drugs).
It still is mind-boggling to me and I'll never get used to this. Or get used to people's disbelief, eventhough I was there myself. Well, you know, and I can't add anything new to this forum.
"Wow' is all I can reply to your posts.
I am so lucky (funny, how things turn out, couldn't have dreamed it at the time) that the psychopath's other woman is now my best friend. It is a great relief for us to go over it endlessly, till it is dissolved. She was his 'wallet".

Thanks Wendy. I have been using my own brain on high alert and thinking of all ways I can to keep abreast of him - until I am divorced. I am trying to be balanced in all this, not obsessive, but I feel I know him VERY well now, and seeing his patterns helps to keep me focused. I am left, like everyone, wondering what if anything was true about our 'amazing' connection. I was married under 3 months before the split and feel like I was separated while still a honeymooner! surreal, even by psychopathic standards, I'm thinking. His ability to be heartless to his lovely daughter is very, very, very grounding for me.

It takes a lot of time to get over such heartlessness. Maybe you could call it obsessive, the way my friend and I keep going over all these things that keep coming up, but it does help us and gradually the subject is losing hold over our emotions. (I can't get away from him entirely, because of my son.) I wouldn't call it obsessive, but necessary. And it is all so fresh, so recent for you! It's hard that you still have a divorce to deal with. That is still a lot of connection to deal with.
Being trampled upon was painful for me at the time, but still familiar. Realising who he really was (nobody there really) frightened me and until I got away (I planned my escape carefully and had to calculate one step ahead of him) I was terribly scared all of the time and I had no idea I'd succeed. My fear is replaced by DISGUST when I see him, when he takes/brings our son. I live in another town with my son, luckily.
I don't know if there is any way to accept or understand such a person. All I know is: get away.
I got out because I knew him very well too. His behaviour and speech seemed irrational and contradictory, but at last I understood that he followed a very strict logic, albeit not mine, and that he followed it with inhuman absoluteness, without any ambivalence, and his predictability saved me. He watched my every move, but still I became completely invisible to him, by just shutting up and giving him no clues about myself, and I even managed to surprise him when I did get out. I beat him at his own game. I turned everything that had hurt me so bad to my advantage. Like f.e. suddenly it suited me perfectly that he was spending time with another woman etc. etc. But when I read your story, I'm afraid the psychopath you are dealing with is alot more intelligent. Still: you know him well and you know his limits, so you have the knowledge necessary to save yourself.

It is so good to chat! Writing has long been a good venue for me to express myself - never more now. First off, please accept my apologies if I sounded like I was labeling you in any way obsessive - truly, I was not. Tho remarkable alike in many characteristics, all humans are different and all 'encounters of the third kind' ; ) are unique! I am far too self-focused these days to begin to label another person dealing with one of these nightmares, in truth! I have enough to sort out for myself. (Tho writing is good, there are elements of communication lacking, as in body language, context and knowledge of a person, so writing is limited as a full communication tool).

I do think I at times can be obsessive. But it probably for me has more to do with the fact that I miss the persona he gave me, we were in the 'honeymoon' and I grieve that I am here, where, in truth, I am. Divorce is certainly not an option, but still strangely, not easy either! The imminence of going there now, soon I can file, has resurged some of my sense of loss and grief over the whole sorry mess and the charm-bag he presented to me. What was real? I dunno. I'd love to write more, but am running out the door, just wanted to clear that up. It takes time and rumination to begin to put this all in some kind of focus.

oh dear..I never ever thought of you or even myself as obsessive...it can just looks that way to somebody who doesn't understand...
Indeed, no individual is alike...but reading the experiences on this site, it is so weird to find our stories almost interchangable (excuse my poor english). And in dealing with the p myself, I found all individuality lacking in him...individuality as I see it...he seemed nothing but an empty shell...only destructive and not counterbalanced egodrive, pure and unadulterated...and not by his own choice either, that is exactly the point!!!! We might not be better humans, but we have the choice, with all the pain and struggle that goes with that choice...he seems not to have any choice and I don't feel I can really blame him. He is severely handicapped...but of course this is all my interpretation, I'm not all-knowing.
If I'd go by my own experience- but I might not be doing you or the p right by this, I'd say, brace yourself: none of it was real.
And it is PURE GRIEF one suffers afterwards, perhaps as bad wnen someone dies - but there I can't speak either, because I don't have that experience - though different. Because here it is not death, but intentional abuse of basic human trust. Never ever would I ridicule someone going through the grief this causes. It is the very worst.
It really takes alot of time and effort and support to get through such grief and I hope you always keep faith and know that you will heal. If you got this far, you got out, then you will!

Dear Lise Jade,
To be more clear, if I may presume (what do I know), ther person you were,the persona, must be true. Because you started the relationship truthfully, believing you had the opportunity to be even more real. When I say: going by my own experience, I'd say it's all false, I don't mean what you call your persona! I mean his intentions and feelings towards you. If he'd take away that faith in yourself and your posibilities as a person too, he's doing exactly what a psychopath does: reduce you.
I should be more precise in my responses.
ByeBye!

Wendy,

Darn! I always tell myself to "keep it short"...but when I read what people are up against then all the stuff I've gone through comes tumbling out.

I've read several of your posts. I think that even though the authorities didn't have enough evidence to pursue your Psychopath for corruption or molestation of your son, the very fact that you reported him to them, and drew their attention down on him, will be an excellent deterrent for a very long time - maybe forever, as far as sexual fondling goes. He seems to be the type of psychopath who cares about projecting a 'good image' to the world. IF his disguise is important to him, he will behave as he must to avoid EXPOSURE of his fake good-guy self. You halted his visitations for the better part of a year, and when they resumed he was required to have a 3rd person present. It's doubtful that his girlfriend (no matter how naive or dumb she may be) would consider it normal for him to fondle his son. And maybe now that he has a girlfriend to use for sex, he will lose all interest in your son that way. I hope!

My Psychopath husband (longtime ex-husband now) molested my young teen daughter during a period when I had to be gone several days from our home, three times in one month, managing my terminally ill father's medical care and other difficulties, --an 8 hour drive away from where I lived. My son is 3 years younger than my daughter, and had SHE not existed, I don't doubt that my husband would have molested my son instead. As it was, he only psychologically and emotionally abused him, falsely-blaming him for wrong-doing he had never done, in order to 'justify' bellowing at him and punishing him. I suspect that many psychopaths bolster their superficial sense of security with sex, and when they find themselves without a partner they'll use whoever is convenient and easy. You taught him that it was not safe for him to use your son.

My son was nearly 11 when he witnessed many eruptions of his father's morally insane behavior towards me and both the children. It disrupted his mental development and nearly broke his mind. I didn't TELL him "your father is a psychopath" but he saw and experienced his irrational, cruel, harmful behavior. You'd think that would confer understanding, but no it did not. Nature seems to build into children's mental wiring that they are supposed to love and trust their parents. And then on top of that there is the gender modeling thing; a father is his son's model for Manhood. Boys want/need to believe that their fathers Love them and CARE about them (even when they don't), and they seem to "need" to be able to Love their fathers even when their fathers are completely undeserving of their love.

They "protect" their ability to love their father and sustain belief that he also loves them, by refusing to consciously acknowledge his wrongdoing, and by concocting excuses or justifications for him. "He only said that, or did that, because[the excuse]" Some of the defense is driven by a survival instinct...to redefine his father as someone he can love and not feel bad about loving. But part of the defense comes from their father himself, who hasn't/doesn't/and won't acknowledge his wrongdoings. That part can cause bursts of trouble for a long time. Especially in adolescence and mid-teens, when a boy starts building his Male identity, HE doesn't believe he can learn the important aspects of "Maleness" from his mom. If there are some good men in your life who take an interest in your boy and will do some "guy activities" with him, it will afford him some balance. He can experience that other men in the world don't think or behave as his father does, and that he need not behave as his father does simply because he's his father's son.

My Psychopath exploited our son's love and trust, to undermine his school achievement, to upset me. Posturing to our son as if he were his best friend and champion, he told him that his teachers "were all morons who didn't know anything worth knowing, they weren't as smart as he (the father) was"... and he gave our son a key to his apartment close by our son's school. My Psychopath went to the school office and lied to the staff, telling them he was the custodial parent, the one to contact when there were any problems. I discovered all this a full month later, when the school finally phoned me, to see if I could shed any light on my son's many many truancies. They had tried repeatedly to contact his father whom he lived with, phoned the home and work, sent letters by mail, but had gotten no response. I took a half-day off work to visit the school with my separation agreement papers proving I was custodial parent, not his father, who had needed to be ousted from our home with an Order Of Protection. I very politely raised a bit of hell, also reported the incident to the city school board too (because the staff had no business just taking his word for it.) Then my attorney met with his attorney and threatened to have my Psychopath jailed for non-compliance with the court separation agreement, and fined heavily for undermining his son's education. Our son had fallen an entire month behind in schoolwork and never made it up. He was sporadically truant at other times during the year, half the time instigated by his father. He failed that school year. That was his reward for trusting his father. My son was/is bright and should have been able to see how stupid it was to skip school. But his father had told him he "didn't need it" and made it seem fun to ignore authority. At the same, time his father was also demonizing ME to him, "your mother doesn't know anything important, and she's obsessive --has no business telling you what to do, you don't have to listen to a word she says, Ignore Her." And demonizing counseling, "You don't have to put up with that bullshit psychobabble." He did even more damage and junk than this, but you get the idea enough from this of how seriously they can upset the flow of life and a son's development.

A close childhood friend of mine and her husband, who lived two states away, invited my son to live with them (their kids were both in college) and attend school there for a year. My son loved me, but he felt like he was splitting into pieces - couldn't tell what was right or wrong, (from his father's relentless exploitation of trust and love.) He asked to go, to get his mind back. He couldn't decline his father's company because it was his Father, and yet he understood on his own that it was disastrous fro him. We both wept. I delivered my son to live with his godparents for a year. You might wonder how I got his father's Approval for him to live with other people in another state. It wasn't hard. He really had no interest in our son or his welfare, he was all about punishing me. All I had to do was agree to his sending his child-support payments to our son directly. He was viciously happy to be depriving me of HIS money and our son's company. It was a heartbreaking time for me. I visited our son a few times during the year, over long weekends, phoned him every week, and had him home over Christmas break. His father didn't visit him at all, called him three times, and didn't have time for him during Christmas break because he had a new girlfriend he'd met through an internet dating site.
My son got his mind back. He graduated a year late from high school.

A friend of mine's husband (now ex) is probably also a psychopath. She had to move out-of-state for work and her son and daughter moved with her. Her ex-husband got remarried, to a woman who worked in concert with him to alienate my friend's son away from her --during his summer and holiday visits to them, and with letters and frequent phone appeals. Her son had been an A student, belonged to his middle school chess club, math club, and soccer team, and had lots of friends. Her son at age 14 threatened to burn her house down if she wouldn't agree to his moving back (to my town) to live with his father. My friend agreed to his moving back for a one-semester trial period, and if all went well she would agree to the change in residency. His father (and the crappy 2nd wife) convinced him he was a genius who didn't need a high school diploma. He dropped out of school two months into his high school Freshman year and never returned. His father and father's wife poisoned his mind against his mother in a thousand ways. He was praised for refusing to pick up the phone and talk to her when she called him at their house; and for yelling vulgar insults at her on the phone. The Ex and his wife modeled hideous disrespect, and disregard. He is now 24, working such jobs as he can land with an 8th grade education. His father and that 2nd wife had a baby, but motherhood was so demanding she deserted daughter and husband. He divorced and married a 3rd wife to take care of the 2nd wife's baby.

BOTH of these fathers have doctoral degrees and work in connection with universities; education was obviously important to them, and yet both manipulated their sons into dropping out of school.


I hope your ex-husband won't give you this kind of trouble. I hope you have some good MALE relatives or family friends or just abiding friends, that your son can enjoy doing some things with, so he can experience other, BETTER (mentally healthier) male influences at regular intervals than just his father. You won't need to explain to him exactly what's wrong with his father and it would be useless to even try. Teach your son moral-ethical reasoning, encourage Empathic reasoning...to consider how others feel in all sorts of situations. If he learns that he will eventually, on his own, identify and recognize what his father lacks and how he harms people.



I believe you CAN make your son strong, but suspect you will need a network of support to accomplish it, so that he is bonded to you and your close family and friends, and his own friends, schools, and activities in the area where you live, --so that in the future, no matter how strongly his father may appeal to him, your son will want to stay "in his life with you" and not desert it to follow whatever beguiling tune the psychopathic Pied Piper plays.

I understand exactly what you've encountered in counseling. I've gone through it. My daughter, son, and myself each had to try out a few different counselors before finding some we felt "Almost" understood what we were dealing with. There was no one in our mid-sized city specialized in counseling for psychopathic victims. Most psychotherapists have no special training to enable them to help the families of psychopaths. Psychotherapy is based on the premise that all parties are interested in improving ways they communicate and promoting harmony, and achieving agreements. Not only do Psychopaths themselves have no interest in any of that, they can't understand why ANYONE would be interested in those things--it strikes them as completely illogical. Compromise and cooperation are for weak suckers. When you disagree with a Psychopath, you're an enemy to deceive and outwit. My Psychopath petitioned the court to allow him access to our son's confidential counseling files, but thank God the judge denied and dismissed his petition.


Neither I, nor my friend whose son got alienated from her, recognized at the start-up, that our Exs would TRASH their son's educations, CORRUPT their mental integrity, and DULL their futures, solely to cause the Mothers of their sons, ANGUISH. It was like watching my son get slowly smothered by hate masked as love, which he couldn't yet perceive and understand because of his immature need to believe in his father's 'love', and so he unwittingly cooperated with the destruction of his own future. I managed to halt it, mine got a HS diploma and has attended some Community College courses, only time will tell if he can find serious direction and purpose. My friend lost her son; he blames her for f***ing up his life "by divorcing his Dad." She hopes that someday he will recognize how much she loves him and how much she tried to do to advance his interests.

dear Kate,

I am sorry for reading and responding to your post so late. I stayed away from the forum for a long time. Your post is totally relevant to my situation. It's hard to imagine the endurance and courage behind such a factual account.

By now the Council for childprotection has finished the interviews with the father, me and the child and they have done all background research. I'm amazingly lucky that the investigator understands the situation. Their advice to the court will be to have father and son spend more time together - but for a predetermined period. I will seek other counselling for my son, and over time this should be evaluated together with the council.

Just a few weeks ago, my son had been doing adult things with a friend again. (fellatio). Luckily, the friend did not feel violated (in his innocence) and my son did not force him to comply, and just took no for an answer when the friend didn't want to do the same thing to him. And luckily, the mother reacted levelheaded. We agreed not to let my son out of sight or hearing again. I then talked to the other mothers, and they were kind and concerned. (The first time this happened, some time ago, that mother was understandably shocked, but she also said ï had to keep my son off the streets, as if he were some roving maniac and she literally shut her door for us and also kept BOTH of her kids home from school for 3 days, in bed and crying, as she said, adding alot of pain for everyone.)

Anyway, you could say my son has a problem if he can't be allowed out of sight and hearing with his friends anymore. My counsellor wondered out loud howcome my son behaved this way (!!!!!!) and asked me if this would be just once, an incident. Because an ongoing problem would mean continuing therapy. I replied that of course I would see to it that it wouldn't happen again!!! So, end of therapy.
It is not all her fault that these counselling organisations only do short term treatment. Luckily, my contactperson at the council for childprotection understands this is a long-term story. He has advised to go to a certain other address where they don't define problems so narrowly. This way my son can still be monitored.

As you say, a child will protect his image of a loving dad whatever happens. Whatever kind of creep a dad is, he is HIS dad. Removing the dad physically from a child's life won't clarify anything for the child. The child wants his dad. Somehow he will have to make sense of it and he can only do this by his own experience. I think it is this consideration for my son that makes the council advise them to have more time together. Or else, it is simply because the dad has full custody, sexual abuse can't be proven and my son says he wants to see his dad alot more. So what can you do. legally?

Yes, indeed, a strong network of loving and supportive relationships is very important. Trust, love (of people, of content) I see as the best defense. Socially, you could consider me a loser and a dropout. But in 2 years I have managed to create such a daily life, such a network - out of nothing but my good intentions. And a pretty little house to live in, with lots of stuff to play and experiment with. (my greatest achievement). I am no longer worried and fearful - so I don't communicate worry and faer to my son. I try to inform him indirectly, taking examples from stories and plays to illustrate what is disrespectful or manipulative behaviour. My goal is to teach him to trust his own experience. My son has an emotional and very empathic character - that is him, not my work.

I have no idea how long term this story will be for him. Already he has come back from his dad a few times confused and sad. Of course, the next time he comes back happy - his dad has a fine tuned radar for not letting his compliant sheep get too disappointed and stray. Even if my son gets sad and hurt, it is not likely he will understand he is not to blame himself, however smart or sensitive he might be. When will he understand? This year? In 5 years time? Or more?

Indeed it helps that I have alerted everyone. I also told his schoolteacher to watch out if his confidence somehow lessens. The council UNDERSTANDS. That is the most important thing. They are wary and have mentioned in the report the possiblilty of incidents in the future. If anything happens, if it gets so bad I'll have to keep my son home again, at least efveryone is already informed. Yes, the father cares greatly about his appearance, so that is a strong deterrant. When he brought my son home today, he gave me a very very wary overly careful glance; he must have read my statements in his copy of the council's report. It must be pretty strange for him to have someone not only see him through but also stand up, for the first time in his life. Different from what happened to you and your friend, he is not motivated by hatred to pursue me. It is not about me, for him. Even when our son was a baby, he often gleefully mentioned his son paying for him in his old age. The fathers interest is money. Money, money, money. And a couple of other things as well. But, luckily, he is indifferent and dislikes effort. So I do not have to deal with the insane hatred that you and your friend had to deal with. He is terribly hateful, but hates exerting himself even more.

Please, tell me, do many people see through your ex or your friend´s ex?
To me, it´s a little bit like reading a plot as an all-knowing reader and then having this unbearable suspense, seeing the total ignorance of the doomed main characters who have to find out for themselves. When will they finally find out?
Being such professional men, aren´t they harder to see through for others?

Wendy,
Life has been overly busy with mini-crises with my own supposedly-grown children lately; plus I recently began working a new part-time job, so I haven't visited the site for a couple weeks,...so no apology for tardy reply necessary! I only just logged on tonight after a more than two-week absence.

I'll remark on some of your post and questions.

Your son's father corrupted your son's ideas about touching before your son even had time to learn that certain types of touching are inappropriate. You have to give your son knowledge about "okay, and NOT-okay, touching", and also empower him to say NO. Not only for dealing with his father. All children need to learn this anymore.

It's excellent that you're using examples from stories and plays to indirectly teach him about disrespectful and manipulative behavior. Your goal to teach him to "trust his own experience" is commendable too, but at present, unfortunately, he's still confused about what constitutes "Appropriate play-behavior", and you are the one who is going to have to dispel that confusion. He doesn't know it's wrong to try to fellate his playmates, because his stupid father corrupted his budding sense of right and wrong.

Until your son learns basic body-boundary information, he will continue to be the playmate who can't be out of sight or hearing when playing with his friends. Maybe you've already got some books for addressing the subject? There are books, written especially for young children, that can be very helpful. I list a few titles and authors below, but there are others. ALL children need to learn to identify what is "okay touching" and what is "NOT-okay touching", just as a matter for general safety, ...and also what words to say to halt inappropriate touching. You say your son is emotional and very empathic. That will be an advantage to him when he is older, but at present it can make him more susceptible to his father's (and other people's) manipulations...more sympathetic to Daddy's feelings (Daddy's desires.) Children want to please the significant adults in their lives.

You can simplify, basically define sexualized play-behaviors as "bad play manners."
Children enjoy pleasing adults they trust and like, they like knowing "The Rules" or you might call them the "DO's & DON'Ts" that govern play and households, so that they CAN "be good" and "be liked."

We say Please and Thank You, we take turns with toys, we never bite playmates, we are gentle with pets, we don't touch playmates private parts.

At some point when he's old enough to understand, you can explain that it's certain behaviors that aren't liked, not the child. Make up a story: A little boy who thought it was fun-play to chase and scare his friend's family's cat, doesn't get invited over to play very often, because even though his friend's mom likes the boy, she doesn't like that he chases and scares their cat. If he wants to be able to go play there, he has to stop chasing the cat. (or whatever...you can make up a better story probably!)

IF you use any of these books below (or similar) with your son, and at some point he says something like: "But if it's NOT okay for people to touch private parts, why did Daddy say it was?"
You say something like: Some grown-ups are confused about it because when they were little somebody in their life gave them confusion, but YOU don't need to be confused about it. I want you to have lots of friends and playmates and their mom's and dad's be happy when you go there because you play so well.


Books:

"Some Parts Are NOT For Sharing" by Julie K. Federico
Fish show which parts of their bodies are for sharing and which parts are not for sharing. (Pretty,fun,cartoon-illustration fish.)

"Your Body Belongs To You" by Cornelia Maude Spelman & Teri Weidner
Explains what to say and do if someone touches your body and you do not want to be touched, especially when the action involves the touching of private parts.

"It's My Body" by Lory Freeman
Discusses different types of touching and offers advice on how to react to unwanted touching.

"Please Tell" by Jessie Ottenweller
A young girl recounts how she was sexually abused by her uncle when she was four years old and tells how her parents and other adults stopped him and have helped her.

"Something Happened And I'm Scared To Tell" by Patricia Kehoe, PhD
Discusses, in simple terms, sexual and physical abuse, explains why adults may become abusive, and encourages children to report such abuse to a trusted adult.
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What can you do legally?

That depends on where you are in the world, and what the laws are. You can find out from an attorney who handles child abuse cases, what you should be keeping track of and looking out for. ONE thing you can do, that could be potentially useful if things don't improve a lot, is to keep a journal or "log" of incidents of your son's inappropriate and/or sexualized behaviors.
Jot down the date, place it occurred, names of those involved and any other witnesses, and a brief description of what happened, (or what was said)...behaviors that indicate precocious sexual knowledge, exposure to abuse, corrupt ideas, etc. It could possibly serve as "situational"(circumstantial) evidence.

This child protection council that interviewed the father and you and your son...did they observe any unusual behaviors in your son? What I'm getting at is, is there any documented evidence at ALL from any professional, that indicates the possibility he was/has been molested?


You said:
Even if my son gets sad and hurt, it is not likely he will understand he is not to blame himself, however smart or sensitive he might be. When will he understand? This year? In 5 years time? Or more?

He may not understand, really understand, until he is well into his 20's. Or older. Meanwhile, as he grows he will see that there are a great many people in the world who aren't playing with a full deck of cards, who have bats in their attic, who are oddballs,....call it whatever you want. It's easy to identify developmentally disabled people--and easy for children to 'accept' that disabled minds work differently; it's much harder for children to understand Deceitful personalities. You have to teach children about Tricksters. Folk Tales, Fairy Tales, and Fables are terrific sources. People have forever taught their young to be wary of disordered human beings, through story telling. Snow White and Cinderella's stepmothers are psychopaths. In The Little Mermaid, the Sea Witch grants wishes-- at a horrible price.

I don't know if you attend a church, but if you can find one you like that has a good Sunday School program, I'd encourage you to join it and make it part of his (your son's) life when he is with you. You don't need to agree with all it's doctrines, what you want is a friendly community atmosphere that underscores ethical behavior. (But don't pick one that dictates: Honor Thy Parents No Matter What.) Unitarian Universalists don't have a creed, but they attract thinkers with strong ethics, and encourage and promote honorable behavior and their members serving the community/town/city ... doing good deeds.

You said:
Please, tell me, do many people see through your ex or your friend´s ex?

I wouldn't say "many", but several have...after they experienced him in a variety of settings and circumstances. He is really only capable of appearing "normal" in social situations that only require very superficial interaction, (and he gets by okay in professional circles where his volume of scientific knowledge and memorized facts impress others in the field.) He has superficially polite manners, but when faced with situations that demand any empathy or understanding of ethics or ordinary morality, he's clueless and makes serious interaction blunders that insult, stupify, or shock people. Still, it's surprising how many people who experience a spike of irrational behavior from him, will turn a blind eye or create some excuse or justification, in order to stay friends with him. (Because if they didn't, they couldn't.) Many people in the world have wobbly ethics and practice "Friendship Loyalty" by excusing their friends from accountability for wrong-doing. None of the people who call themselves his friends have any personal integrity. No honor, no principles, no dignity. My children learned that as time went on. Their complaint: "All Dad's friends are weird." (Uh-huh...because they have very weak and shifty characters.)

That's all I can write for now. I wish you the best of luck!


It will be a few days at least before I log in here again.

Hi Kate, thanks so much for the list of books. I hope it is okay but I posted them in the Resource Section.

Di

Hi Di,
It's fine that you posted them. And here's another one. I came across it while looking up the authors of the ones I already posted.
I haven't seen this book, but maybe it could be useful for parents dealing with the molestation of their child/children by a Psychopath spouse/ex-spouse.

"When Your Child Has Been Molested: A Parent's Guide To Healing and Recovery" by Kathryn Hagans, Joyce Case, & Kathryn Brohl.

Kate, thanks very much, I just added your new book suggestion. I have always had this sick feeling in my stomach that this goes on more than many will either know about or able to deal with.

If as a society we don't protect our children, what statement does that make about us as the guardians of the precious children.

Di

I hope with this topic and your book suggestions we can bring this subject more out of the shadows. If it happens as often as only I can guess I think we need to have some serious conversations about it.

Hi,

I've been doing a LOT of reading over the past 3 months that I've been separated from my husband who I thought might be an N but now realize he's more likely a Psychopath which is a lot scarier. I came across this post about a woman's (Wendy, are you still here?) 7 yo son in another thread starting "is my child safe, hardly anybody understands":

"...He started making odd sexual remarks, but seemed to have fun and I ignored it, until one day he came back from his dad and accompanied these remarks with definitely unchildlike gestures and invitations. Even an adult has to LEARN this pornographic idiom by watching movies. He even mentioned his dad. I was so shocked that he said he had been joking and shut up. At that moment, he had not been alone with anybody else but my mom and his dad. Even though I still hoped that he had seen, but not done these things, I applied for help wherever I could.

Nothing much happened beyond applying. In the meantime, to find out HIS truth, I neither approved nor disapproved of his strange sexual behaviour and never asked questions. He always showed this behaviour in happy, cosy situations. Then one day, as I was cooking, and in no way leading him to this, he mentioned his dad in an unmistakable way, saying he did this with his dad and his dad did it to him, so I should do it too and dad said it was good for his body."

Well here's what I wrote about my daughter after a visit with her father:

She said her dad called her 'xxx' her 'body' and liked to touch her there, but not her bum bum. She said she did dance naked for him because he liked it. And that she wanted to tell him that he has a choo-choo when she next sees him. I asked if she'd seen Daddy's and she laughed and said no.
She has come back from his place before and said, "her xxx hurts." H shook his head when she said that in front of him.
She's often complained that it hurts to pee, her vagina is red and smelly. Doc said to put chamomile on it.
She keeps saying she wants her (breasts) to hurry up and get big.

This morning she was bugging me, really touching and just annoying me, so that I would get up – all over me. I put her in the living room to watch cartoons. When I'm talking on the phone she's licking my leg. "I'm just kissing and licking mummy". She says she likes (or her hands, or feet like) touching my "hot legs" and keeps fondling my knees. And she likes to touch my "soft skin." Normal?

If there's anyone around who's familiar with child abuse, is this explicit or is it me being a prude and over-reacting? Maybe my legs are hot, my skin is soft, children are not a-sexual... I called a child psych who said she thought I had a right to be worried. I tried to call Private Investigators but they didn't call back. I think it might be common for recently "discarded" wives to think something fishy is going on with their ex'es, or they can't be bothered, or realized I probably wouldn't be able to afford them anyway so I just out and told my H and he was "hurt" that I would think such a thing and then went on to say what he would do if anyone ever hurt her. He's actually gone off a few times about how he would hurt anyone who molested her, I mean overly so, so I'm wondering, is that to throw me off? Or what's going on?

She goes to a child psych once a week but the psych told me the first thing my daughter said to her was: "I am strong and tall." Basically, don't try and mess with me because I'm strong. She won't talk about her dad when asked point blank, (says "nothing"), but does bring up things in play. "Mummy and daddy are at the top of the ladder. What do you see?" "Daddy's choo choo." But my daughter could be toying with her as she's also manipulative.

Now my daughter says when she goes over to his place, he changes her out of her t-shirt into one of his choosing, then changes it back before bringing her home. And has bought her another bathing suit, toothbrush/paste (but she never stays over) - like he's making a separate world for them over there, or is just being "odd" enough to piss me off (gaslighting) but not enough to accuse him of anything. He's enmeshed (covert incest) with his mother so I hope he isn't doing the same with his daughter.

Anyway I'm afraid because he's smart and I don't know what he's capable of (the rages and lies can be scary, and the terrible things his mother has done to me - for having the gall to ask her to stop doing something in my house that she didn't want to stop - is beyond the pale), so I can't stay a step ahead. I just try and be as loving a mother as possible and tell her to tell her dad if anything bugs her, and that she knows what's real and what isn't. For instance, she had a cold once and both her father and grandmother told her she didn't have one. I don't want her to start doubting what's real, or be "traumatically bonded" as I read in another thread, or become a Psychopath herself... so many worries.

Some say it's better for a child to have their father present no matter if he's a Psychopath or not, but I'm wondering, isn't it better to take a chance and leave or have no or little contact, and have hope that I/we meet someone else who actually will behave properly?!

Thanks for your time.

Hi, welcome to our community. Did the Dr. examine your daughter, certainly he could see some issues. I would hop foot to a specialist the next time she comes home from any visits and start gathering evidence. If he has been touching or acting inappropriate which it sounds like, rush to the ER to have a complete exam for things like pubic hairs etc. You are going to need evidence, clearly I am not a MD but this doeesn't sound right.

You are going to have a tough battle but it sounds like you need some strong help to keep him from having unsupervised visitations, no vistations would be best but alarm bells are about to pop my head off.

Di

It is my personal belief that when a person lacks a conscience, all bets are off on what they might do. Porn, sex, lies, cheating, molesting children. Your daughter is in severe danger from what I am reading in your description of information.


I combined your post to Wendy's thread so we have a central place to discuss such concerns.

Hi Di and many thanks for all your insights and concern, here and in private. I agree this is the best place to put this post. Only a court-ordered doctor, untrained in child abuse issues, can examine the child, and I'm told it's akin to repeating the trauma. It's not recommended unless I'm convinced of invasive molestation, and I don't think that's the case. Just perhaps things that are inappropriate. Outwardly he's very loving when he's with her and she seems happy to be with him, not cowering or shy or anything. She's also made no mention of such things for more than a month or so, except for the penis mention at the psych's office last week. Could be because it gets attention (certainly mine), maybe they discuss it at playschool... Today there was nothing to report. Daughter won't talk about her father at all when asked directly, even by me. This makes me also wonder tho, if there was any keep-silent "programming" going on. She is forever wanting to sleep with me too and I asked her tonight while we were pretending we were cars, why, and she mentioned something about a fireman coming in during the night. Okay I can't get too paranoid, as maybe it is scary for a kid to sleep alone in their room. I even get scared sometimes. But could he have been going into her room while she slept? Too creepy to consider and I hope that's just my over-fertile imagination.
She is perturbed now that her father made her wipe her own bottom when she was with him - this is because of my alarm since I mentioned my concerns to him. Just the fact I suspected something was enough to stop him going any further, I hope, if indeed anything happened. I'm just trying to be cautious and not paranoid. The pedi will examine her as her vag issue is ongoing, so I hope to have more answers there (and hopefully not more questions).
He was very offended that I'd even think such a thing, and did keep saying in very heavy terms, what he would do to anyone who did something to her. So much so that the last time I told him to stop, I get the idea. Doth he protest too much? Just so annoying being in this quicksand, not-knowing, agitated position, which in a way is typical - to be put in a perennial state of anxiety. Drip drip drip...

Hi, I would still take her to your own Dr. because I believe in most states at least here the Dr. is obligated by law to report any abuse. Who said only a court appointed Dr. could be the only one to exam her. You have every right to take her to her own Dr., this sounds weird.

Now that the subject has been raised with your x I can only guess the silencing is starting.

Google: nanny cams. I would also put one in her room because it is likely she may start acting out sexually when she is alone.

I wouldn't brush this off as a over active imagination, children don't dream up this stuff and he has a vested interest in lying. I think in your heart of hearts you know what is really going on.

You need to have evidence in cement and getting cameras going will help prove your case. You are in for a fight but I feel like you are up to it to protect your child.

Take a few minutes and start a journal and then look and see how clear the evidence is that something is going on. Journal and film everything if you want to get her out of his hands. I would also stop talking to him about it, it is feeding him on where to be more careful to not be exposed. Just act like everything is normal but you need to start with a journal, filming and getting her to see her own Dr. for a physical exam, just make it look like a childhood exam or some kid at school had something like lice or whatever you have to say to make the visit seem to not raise flags, I think lice is a good one since it would require the Dr. to look over her body. You can say that you met another mother while you were picking up your daughter and she said her child had lice and was suspicious she got it at school from some other kid. I would also have up a meeting and be friends with her teacher to monitor how she is behaving at school. Teachers I believe also have to report any signs of abuse so if the teacher can be trusted to be on the look out you can have some more witnesses.

We can support you but only you can rescue her.


Di

Hi Di, the court-ordered doc is for admissible evidence. But you raised more issues I will also ask her doc about tomorrow, so thank you for that. I thought it was normal for children to be curious about their privates at this age, so I've said she could "explore" by herself in private. She's mentioned doing it a couple of times (comes out of her room and tells me), the last time just recently. Oh maybe it was Sunday night. Re evidence, he takes her swimming.

I really don't know what is "normal", that is why I would put in cameras and see what she says or does while "exploring" herself.

Swimming, either I am too skeptical or he is one slick guy. The swimming part is interesting. It would remove obvious signs like pubic hair more than likely but if you get her swim suit back I would bag it for professional inspection.

I think there is some confusion here, I think you have every right to take her to her own Dr., you need an evidence trail even for a court appointed Dr. Listen to your heart. This doesn't make sense to not have exams to prove your point instead of waiting for the court to say so. I know that in many cases in divorces abuses are made as accusations for power vs. truth but I think when you have these bells in your mind I would listen to them very carefully, just because it is a wild accusations in many cases to get even doesn't mean it can't be true in your case, quite the opposite, you will have to document more to make sure you aren't brushed off as an angry x tossing around false allegations.

Di

Di you've raised more questions, and I am feeling like a wide-eyed dope. Good target, me, and also good thing I found you. He has another bathing suit for her, he has everything - waterwings, toothbrush/paste even though she only spends a few hours in the afternoons with him. She told me he also changes her clothes, her top at least, when she goes to visit, and then changes back to the clothes I put on her before he brings her home. He didn't do this the last time though. I will also bring this up with her doctor tomorrow.

Hi, I contacted a friend who is a therapist who specializes in child abuse. I asked her about the acting out and exploring herself and her immediate reaction one was that it is a key sign of abuse.

Promise me you will order those cameras to have one in her room because since your daughter mentioned this in front of him he will be harder to catch. She (the therapist) agreed it is likely that in her room she will probably act out and even verbalize further, like carry on conversations with herself that she has had with her "father". They are easy to hide in the rooms, I would get one in each room and you can monitor her on your computer when she is in her room.

It will be tough if she does indeed start to act out in her room but keep in mind you have to have evidence as painful as it will be to be on the sidelines for now. Do NOT show any reaction or try to lead her in any way. When he is present, act pleasant as hard as that will be and it will be tough, you have to act like you don't suspect a single thing. Odds are he has already been working on silencing her since he was there when she brought the subject up, remember any questions or things you say to her will in innocence be told back to him. It won't be easy but worth it in the end. I know as a mother you will want to leap into action but you need the evidence on your side.

Di

Make sure your Dr. is told in confidence and there is no way he can pry out of the Dr. what is going on. I would take her in and then speak to the Dr. later via phone or in a private visit, don't leave any clues, like for example she might say, daddy, mommy took me to the Dr. then they asked me to stay outside while they talked.

Even though he changes her clothes back, he may just slip up and there could be some trail like pubic hair etc. that he misses. There is no perfect crime, get your detective hat on. Ask your Dr. about how to gather garments etc. to not break the chain of evidence to be tested for any signs of semen or hairs. If you can get some of his hair samples.

Hi Di, I answered privately, many many thanks.