I have started this post several times but become overwhelmed and unable to continue. Now, I am trying again....

My Dad, as far as I know, is not a murderer, robber, rapist, drug addict, or anything else that would potentially flag him as a psychopath. In fact, he appears, on the surface, to have always been a loving father and husband. He and my mother were married 48 years. However, after my Mom's death in 1999, I moved home to stay with my Dad. I won't go into all the details but over the past 11 years, with the help of God and my husband, I began to realize that things weren't quite right with my "all-American family" nor with the father whom I thought always had my best interest in mind.

One thing my Dad does is constantly create enemies among those around him while, simultaneously, appearing to be the most friendly, happy-go-lucky, smiling, people-loving person you would ever want to meet. He likes to foster discontent, dissension, etc. and, apparently would watch the havoc it created without anyone ever realizing he was the instigator. The people with whom he plants these negative impressions never consider that he is doing so - rather they just begin to dislike the target of my father's disdain. Growing up, I had always felt disapproval from my mother, brother, and sister - nothing overt, just a strong feeling. There were no hugs, love you's, or "I'm proud of you" from anywhere. I spent my childhood mostly in my room, dreaming that I was someone else - someone people were drawn to and immediately liked. I lived that dream world into my adulthood. Additionally, if there was anything special to me - such as a love for animals, it was insinuated that this was a bad thing. That I didn't like people. I was spoken of as if I were a spoiled selfish child and adult. All my aspirations, likes, hurts, etc., were de-valued and undermined. When the 3 of us kids grew up and had homes of our own, my parents visits would be miserable. People would tell me it took me 3 weeks to get over their visits. My mom was the one, however, that would overtly spew disapproval - not my Dad. He just sat back and listened. She would criticize the other 2 kids and I would join in - feeling it was the only time I was the "favored child". Until I realized that she would do the same thing at my brother's and sister's homes. It was like a black cloud wherever they went. I had no idea that it was my Dad fostering these things. My Dad was always putting me down but he would do it either with what appeared to be a fatherly concern or in a teasing matter - like he was just joking. Except that it was a constant in my life. I always felt like I had to defend myself but I wasn't sure against what. I grew up unhappy, sullen, with no confidence or self-like. As a matter of fact, I was becoming what I saw my mother to be.

I didn't realize that my Dad was a psychopath overnight. I didn't begin even having a clue until I had spent 2 years locked in a sleepless battle every night over questions of "what is the truth?", "what do I believe?", "what is happening?", and wishing I were dead every morning, not wanting to face another horrible day. My husband and I would fight constantly. I thought he just hated my Dad but he was trying to get me to see what he could see - that my Dad was controlling my thoughts, emotions, etc. I almost lost my marriage before I was able to see the real villain in all of this. One night, I sat up in bed, looked up at the ceiling, and said out loud "God, I can't figure this out. I don't know what is going on or who to believe." "I can't fight this anymore." "Please help me". The following morning, my husband showed me some internet info on narcissistic parents but I thought that didn't represent my Dad all that much. That got me interested in delving further and I looked up manipulative parents. What I got back was an article on covert aggression personality disturbance. I couldn't believe it. It described my Dad to a "T". The lying, using shame and guilt tactics, feigning innocence, minimizing, inappropriate anger, etc. Finally, it gave me a category. Something to hold on to. After that, information and situations just continued to snowball. I realized he had been putting negative impressions of me in the mind of my boss's parents thus causing my boss to have concerns about my performance. When I realized that my Dad was "in my job", I had to stop the insanity. This was my livelihood - and a very good one. I realized then that my Dad would go to great lengths to destroy anything I felt good about. That brings me to the point I am at today. Through continued research, I absolutely believe that my Dad is and always has been a psychopath. My mother had to have lived a "living hell" and none of us were aware, including her. I am the only one, besides my husband, who knows this. Now that my Dad knows I am aware, he has pulled my sister and brother closely to him and they won't have anything to do with me. In the years after my Mom died, all information went through my Dad. My sister, brother and I have never been very close and I realized that the disapproval I felt FROM them had also been planted in my mind TOWARD them. It's so complex and so hard to explain. It is a truly a hidden evil that I never suspected was going on. I thought it was normal.

My husband and I are coming out of this hell and are stronger than ever. We are planning a move to [edited to remove location] to start a new life, without knowing anyone who has ever come into contact with my Dad. The healing process has been pretty rapid; however, my husband and I speak daily of this. I continually think about my childhood and try to sort things all out and wish that I could talk to my Mom.

Sorry this is so long and yet it speaks to only a tiny bit of what I have discovered about my Dad and my own life. Thank you for "listening".

Hi sinkler61, welcome to the forum, I am glad you had that lightbulb moment. There is no limit on how much any posts, so post away, the more the members read the better we can support you.

A man in a very similar situation just joined our community a couple of days ago and I will move his post here and let him know. I am very sorry about the situation but waking up in time saved your marriage and moving is an excellent plan, wasn't there some song about, being where no one knows my name;) Many times the pressure can make people take the bait and you have done nothing wrong so no reason to explain yourself. I find that people exhibit very poor boundaries in the personal things they will ask or say about someone so best to be away. I find it odd how hungry people can be for unfounded gossip. I prefer to make my own decisions rather than listen to someone with ill will telling me about someone else and their "faults".

Since things are so transparent these days if you don't want them to easily locate you stay away from facebook etc. If you plan to be out of any contact we can chat about how to make sure they can't easily find you. They may someway but make it so it isn't so easy

I would guess if they find you it would only be to bring misery and pain back to your life. Control is a huge factor with a psychopath so they will see you as out of their range yet wanting to snoop up on you. I am not so sure I would hop on a plane if they call to tell you about a funeral.

Thoughts have power so once you resolve it and hopefully we can help in any way, I would wipe it all out of my mind and have a happy and joy filled life. It sounds like you have a great husband.

I am guessing you told your dad he was a psychopath? It doesn't surprise me about his gossiping to have a negative impact on your work, after all a psychopath's middle name is Evil. Do you think he wanted you fired so you would have to come to him for things?

Di

Hi,
This is fairly long winded
My mum died 10 years ago, my dad remarried a woman with 2 daughters about 8 years ago from Thailand, she is very dependant on him and he likes it that way, they had a baby, she is 3 he is 67.
He has always been manipulative, emotionally, he tends to tell lies to emotionally blackmail, often not nessicary, an open honest approach would work just as well or better, yet he cant see this. Your mums upset.... yet she never said a thing, it was him not wishing to say he was upset
He degraded my mum, by flirting in front of her, obviously he didnt see it that way, i asked him after she died (53) he was 56 i think, if he was unfaithful, he said once when they first married. She loved him and stuck with him, almost made him function to a better level, she gave him strength.
I get the feeling he had or has a above average libido, he maked inapropriate comments alot. Now he seems to and has used her loss as an excuse for poor behaviour, "your mum did all that stuff, its not my fault". As a grand parant or father
Myself and my siblings were made to feel special when we were younger, given a false ego, we were wonderful, he was so proud. It was directed at other adults but rubbed off on us.
Often I wonder if I myself have developed poor behaviour because of my up bringing, if i am normal, if infact i have aquired some mimiced habits from my up bringing, i have had 2 long term failed relationships.

He wishes or wished to keep everyone around him, buy a businesses that we all would be together, the centre of attention, yet it always became about money greed and him getting us to work for less than fair wages or conditions, again manipulating, everyone has pulled away over time, been used hurt, become intolerant of his selfishness.

My brothers wife said she will leave him if he helps dad. I thought that was harsh, i should be his decision, she should trust his judgement.

Anyway
He moved away from everyone in anger about 5 years ago, he has a terrible temper, almost a rage at times of difficulty. In his eyes we didnt care, in ours it was that it was a one way street, we gave he took, as we grew, married, divorce, lived without much contact, by the time mum had been gone for 3 or 4 years he became more like an uncle than a dad, mum was the only connection, without her he just took and took until nobody wanted to hear him whine and grumble, he moved on to convincing everyone else, colleagues, friends, new neighbours of how his children had abandoned him, because he had married a Thai woman, he convinced her we didnt like her, he borrowed money from friends and uncles etc, emotionally used others took up gambling on pokies, he is always poor,no matter how rich he may be, if he had a million dollars it would be his last million, "ive lost so much" he would say (always a sad story to be told) and pretend he had had 2 million before.

Dad has now been accused of touching my step sister girls inappropriately, he denys this, that tickling and touching, cuddling was his way of shoing he loved them, part of a loving relationship. He claims the girls now 14 and 17 are lying because he is to strict, that their mum who has lung cancer has put stress on him and his anger or frustration with their lack of help around the house with their sister (now 3) is part of the cause for them to make it up so they can leave home and not help. He blames his strictness and control over issues to do with boy problems in the past, a lack of trust, and the loss of his other childrens affection, that he has been trying to keep them close.

Emotionally controled would be an outside observation.

I believe the girls because i had a discussion with my sister, she tells me he did the same to her, but she never felt threatened or stopped loving him, until a bigger issue over money at 31 years of age. Mainly pinching her breasts, brushing past he pelvic bone or pushing her in that region, pinching her behind. Basically an invasion of personal space, odd, it has to be sexual, but nothing ever transpired, she never felt odd about it until I mentioned after visiting him a year or 2 ago and i told her that i felt he was manipulating the girls, that it was strange and the girls were not given much freedom.

Social services believe its intent for something more sinister after the oldest confided in a friend, their parents rang them and all hell broke loose.
The girls have been removed, he wants to bring his wife and baby to live with me because he cant cope. He is graping at straws. She also asked me also but i feel she was manipulated by him, she believes him over her children, and has cut them off to a degree, convinced herself that the girls are just lazy and want to be free or she pertends to agree becuase of the marrige, i can see through it, if she sees through it she will have lost the love of her daughters.

If she remains stressed the cancer will finish her quickly, its been removed in december but could resurface, she now needs chemo.

Im a solo dad now, i have been a long time, my daughters 13, 21 and 24 the 13year old still at home with me, the older 2 say Dad never ever touched them, i dont want to expose the youngest to risk, im not sure if he really is a risk.

Im not sure how to help this situation, how to help him, how to help his wife and my half sister or the two older girls. If i should, how could i just turn my back.

I dont wish to have him live with me but he is my father, he my face prosecution yet so im not sure if he will be made to stay there until he has or if he would be free to come here.
I dont think he is a paedophile, but his touching is not normal, he Rationalises it minimizes it and has used guilt and intimidation with the girls ("why are you doing this", "you know your lying") to a lesser degree, i dont think he is evil, more immature, but i find him draining negative, unevolved spiritually and emotionally, some would say a young soul.

Yet he can be charming, funny and a hard worker, people really like him, atleast for a while, some for ever.
Hes stopped eating in the past few days, I think he wants attention, he says its best if he just dies.
I would prefer to provide a home for my step sisters, but they would like to stay in their current school etc with friends families. That is 1700km away from me. In my opinion the best outcome would be dad to go on his own and everyone could be together but he wont let his wife go, he would be alone.

I feel i am being selfish and avoiding addressing/talking to him about it. Because i dont want him here.
I should have rung him, i promised i would, but i cant face it today because i dont fully understand his illness, who he is, why he is the way he is. I believe he may be a psychopath (but that seems extreme) with a bit of a sexual hang up too. Looked into it a little today on the internet but im not sure who to go to for advice here in [edited to remove location]. Then i found this site.
Any suggestions?

Hi Monty, welcome to the forum. I will be gone for awhile but just a couple of thoughts, any kind of touching is wrong, don't take that risk.

I think your brothers wife is right in refusing to deal with your father.

I can't think of a single reason why you would let him move in with you. Think of your daughter, do you want her to grow up in the chaos he will for sure bring, take a chance he may touch her?

You have no reason to feel guilty, he s a gwon man and made his own decisions to marry have another child etc. Your primary focus should be your and your daughters sanity and steering clear of all the chaos.

They will come up with every reason, ploy etc. you have to be strong or you are bringing your child into a situation that is crazy making, do you want to do that to her?

Di

I'm really sorry, I'm not in such a good place as to be able to write you a proper reply at the moment.

One phrase really jumped out at me though, as the daughter of a pyschopath, who used the 'it's my way of showing how much I love you' line, and in fact brainwashed me for years with it:

'Mainly pinching her breasts, brushing past he pelvic bone or pushing her in that region, pinching her behind. Basically an invasion of personal space'

This isn't just an invasion of personal space, it's sexual assault.

I'm sorry if it sounds really harsh. As someone who has been on the receiving end of this type of behaviour from my father (and much, much worse) humiliation and degradation is the intent of it. Power and control are also the intent (as in 'I have the power to touch you wherever I want to and in whatever way I want to and you have no control over it, or your body').

Please don't risk exposing your children to this. I have a younger sister who lives with our dad. I know what he is doing to her because he has done the same to me and other female family members. The pain is beyond excruciating.

Something else that jumped out at me too...for a while I thought my dad was mentally ill. How could he possibly have done what he did to me otherwise?

Now I know he knows exactly where the line between right and wrong is. He just chooses to cross over it continually. He chooses to disregard the law and social norms and other people's wellbeing because he wants power and control. And he deliberately exploits other people's concern for living within the bounds of the law and social norms.

That's who my dad is.

Hi Monty as far as your dad and you evaluating if he moves in with you, ask youself one question, do you want pure evil living with you and your daughter?

Think of your daughters needs, only you can protect her. Sure he will be really, realy nice for a short while and then boom out comes the devil dressed in mans clothing.

Even entertaining the thought makes me think he is putting a lot of pressure on you and even getting his wife to ask also. Probably next they will say it will only be for a "short time", trust me it will be forever.

He is known to molest young girls, why would he be any different with your daughter? How could you possibly watch over your daughter 24/7 no matter how hard you try, he will find an opportunity.

I know it will be difficult since they will probably keep hounding you but you need to step up to the plate to protect your daughter. The trauma it would bring would more than likely bring her a lifetime of issues. I would suggest, do not even let them come for a holiday or any other reason, they will then really pin you down or they just won't leave. Once they walk through your door all bets are off as far as the safety of your daughter and the mental chaos it will bring.

I think about the only route is to say, no way when you talk to them and stick to it, avoid their calls for awhile or forever, what exactly do you have to gain by speaking with him?

There is a saying here, if you don't like the family you get, find a family you want.

Di

'The trauma it would bring would more than likely bring her a lifetime of issues.'

I can second that. I'm middle aged now. Still struggling to deal with it.

These are some of the ways in which it has affected me:
PTSD
IBS (which can be very severe at times)
Eczema
Self harm
Depression
Attempted suicides
Eating disorders
Very low self esteem
I live my life in constant fear
I have practically no friends
I can't work full time because of my PTSD, and am consequently really broke all the time
No interest in having a family of my own (why bring children into the world when there are such evil people?)

I have had years of counselling, some of which has re-traumatised me.

I wish to God someone had kept this man away from me, but he tricked everyone (including me) into believing he was a good and kind, if slightly goofy, man. That was just a mask.

What they do is all about severing and rendering immobile. They sever your thought/feeling axis, so leaving you really confused and at odds with yourself, and ultimately unable to act.

He's already doing this to you: your gut is telling you that it would be a bad idea to let him into you life, but he is wearing down the thinking part of you.

This is how they get control.

Monty,

I think moving your father into your home would put your daughter at risk and is a bad idea. Man, get him an apt!

When a psychopath's spouse becomes seriously ill, or is on a trip or absent for several days--- he can feel betrayed by her and like he is being threatened with death of his "Self." A psychopath WILL exploit the Trust and Love of those closest to them, including his own children and teenagers (who are still growing and developing), in order to obtain feelings of having control over his life and world. He will not admit he's molested his daughter(s)...he doesn't feel shame or remorse. He will minimize his offense and say the girl exaggerated, it wasn't "really" molestation, he ONLY pinched her, or she behaved seductively, flirted, or "egged him on." His brain is even capable of blocking his mind from remembering it at all...though his actions may taint his daughters lives forever. My husband engaged in classic psychopathic Projection: he disowned his rotten behaviors by transferring "ownership" of them over to ME. When he did that, then he looked at me he "saw" HIS abusive behavior attached-to me, as if it were mine somehow. His brain rewrites or blocks him from knowing what he's done, and he had no awareness or understanding that his mind even performed these switcheroos.


Your father's wife has cancer, which has unleashed insecurities in him.
Looks like to me he's a guy who fixes insecure feelings through sexual harassment and manipulation of minor females;
He's already sexually molested your step-sisters.
YES, it's possible your father could molest or try to molest your daughter(s).
This is not an "Oops, Dad made an embarrassing mistake" thing, it's a major-psychological Disorder thing.
If his wife gets sicker instead of recovering, their little daughter won't be safe to leave alone with him either.

You can take him in and police his conduct;can you really turn off his inappropriate behaviors.(pinching buttocks etc)
What does having him live with you teach your daughters?--
That it's okay for a molester to live in your home so long as he's a relative?
That Loyalty is duty-bound to put up with disrespectful treatment of your female children?

I'm not sure. But I know this...
Abuse has a nasty habit of recycling from generation to generation.



____________________________

Here's my story. I should've seen it coming. I didn't.

I was married for over 20 years to a psychopathic man. A PhD scientific researcher.
He could mimick 'normal' well enough to pass for a sort of eccentric-normal in public socializing, but he was a fake. He had no ethics.

After we had two kids I quickly found out that his actions didn't match his words very often. He lied a lot but it was hard to tell because he looked and sounded sincere. When he treated others badly he just re-wrote it, erasing his behavior, or providing some stupid justification for it.
He BELIEVED his own lies. Really believed them.

When our daughter was 14 and our son 11, my father got bone cancer. He lived two states away. I was 30 when my mom died and 6 months later he married a young gold-digger wife. (she never a mom to me so I don't refer to her as step-mother.) He had surgery to relieve pain and extend his life, but when he returned home from the hospital, she turned him into her captive abuse victim. Battery and torture went on two weeks undiscovered. I discovered it and extracted my father. He was too sick to move to where I live so I made several trips to his city to do what was needed to coordinate his medical care, get an attorney, deal with the assault report, and manage his financial matters. First trip I was gone from home 8 days, then made a couple more 3 to 4 day trips with a week at home in between. At the start of my father's mess, my husband found out that his longtime research job was being terminated. But he was given one 'grace year' of regular monthly salary and benefits, while he hunted for other work.

When I returned home my daughter complained that Daddy walked in on her every time she changed her clothes or took a shower and she'd asked him to stop it but he wouldn't, and she asked me to get through to him that she wasn't little anymore and she deserved privacy. My son had a couple nasty-looking bruises that he couldn't recall how he got. He was way-quieter than normal--stayed in his room when his father was at home. I attempted to discuss those things with my husband; he lashed out in a way he never had before. He wildly accused me of abusing our kids, treating them to pitiless harangues, inventing crimes to accuse them of so I could dish out punishment or treat them to cold silences...and so on. I had done nothing of the sort, I'd been gone 8 days and back home just 4 hours; his ranting lies made NO SENSE. My second trip, coming back home things were worse...very strained. My third trip, I was able to return home a day earlier than I'd expected to. Phoned home to tell them, but no one answered, I left a message. I arrived home late afternoon. The house seemed empty, --no wait --someone was crying in the bedroom -- I walked there to investigate. My daughter's bedroom door was ajar. My husband was on the bed with my daughter, both were dressed, but his arms were clenched tight around her, pinning her arms to her sides, with his weight mashing her to the mattress. He was grinding his pelvis against her buttocks, rhythmically chanting with each thrust " daddy LOVES you, daddy LOVES you, Mama HATES you, daddy LOVES you." He was smiling. She was sobbing and pleading with him to leave her alone. My son was in his room adjacent to hers, also sobbing.

I yelled at him to get up and get out. He looked wild and yelled back in a creepy FLAT voice, "You don't un-der-stand... you can't care...you are E-VIL...e-vil and TWIST-ED...you deserve noth-ing but HATRED." I could see in the expression on his fact that he BELIEVED what he was saying; this was his re-write, projecting his actions onto me to paint himself innocent. He glared like he wanted to kill me. I shouted him off the bed and out of the room. OUT OUT get OUT right NOW. He left the house, got in his car and drove off. I comforted and quieted the kids. I'd spent the morning installing my father at Hospice because his pain had become 'unmanagable'....then I'd driven 8 hours home and encountered this.

My kids and I went to a Women's Shelter. I filled out an incident report there. We spent the night on couches because their small dorm room was at full occupancy. In the morning we returned home and I made attorney appointments for me and counseling appointments for everyone. My husband returned. He had was unaware we hadn't slept at home, and indignant that I would dare to suggest that he was dangerous to be around. His entire memory of the previous day's incident consisted of 'something happened where everyone got confused and was crying and yelling...it was all very hazy and nebulous.' He was the only one confused, but he didn't know it.

It was during my first trip away, (the week-long one) when my husband started molesting our daughter and false-blaming our son, giving himself excuses to slap him around.

Hi,
The way I see it is we are all on a road to discovery, we are all growing emotionally, we all make mistakes.
Phsycopath just seems so harsh to me. We all use emotion to manipulate situations, were is the line between normality and pathic? As we grow some of us see the world more clearly, we use honesty or are able to see things clearer, we can all reflect and think of situations weve been in and how we behaived badly, with emotion rather than clarity.
Yes my Dad has some major issues, he has never had the level of maturity to face those issues, he like many people blames everyone and everthing but himself. Until a human is capable of being self critical they can not grow, change.
How many social workers does it take to change a light bulb?
one!! but the light bulb has to want to change!
I dont know why that seems to funny today but its light and refreshing compared to unpleasntry i face.

Back to where I was going, enlightenment or knowledge gives you a greater sence of awareness, there is no way my Dad living near or with me would he be allowed to do anything to harm my daughter. Being aware of his past and me being able (not that i want to) to confront it means his grandaughter is aware of the accusations. Yes im not qualified to help, im not skilled or knowledgeable in this field, yes i could get burned. There could be extreme circumstances, say he told her if she told he would kill me and her etc. This isnt likely, its like saying you wont fly or go in a car because it might crash, yes things can happen, but taking precautions can avert disaster.

If i walk away from this situation does that make it a problem for others in society, others that are unaware of his issues, let him go out there unaided, interfering with some strangers children because he is taken in by some unsuspecting family, oh poor old guy, well give him a room.
What he needs is counciling, managment, support, and a level of understanding, not condoning but a level of understanding in a clinical sence. Maybe im naive, maybe a fool, i like to think there was good in all people, the ability to change, the desire to be better or do better. If we just throw them to the street then what does that do to our societies? I find it strange that the general opinion is they cant be helped, Why then do we not lock up 10% more of society?
Im all for helping my dad if i can, i just find him so dam annoying to be around, he drives me nuts. Let along the effort involved in actually doing it.
As far as the comment on my dad and my sister, "invasion of personal space"
yes ill admit trying to dress it up and make it sound better than it was, because i dont understand it and dont wish to believe he is like that, and that because he didnt pin her down and say daddy loves you i felt maybe i can get away with saying he didnt sexually assult her, but then in being like him not facing the truth.

So where do i go, who helps these people?
Who helps me do what is right?
Leaving him on the street turning my back to corupt another humans life is not the way to go, if i want to or not its wrong.
I have a step mum whom i can help, a half sister, what happens to them if i do nothing?
I dont know about your society but mine sucks, were is the help averting a disaster, why is there ambulances instead of doctors?

ps as far as moving from generation to generation i am his son, i have 3 daughters, i have never nor would ever touch them inapropriately. But i would say may have ment victim to victim, this would be more lodgical. I have been confused by many aspects of my dads behaiviour from 5 years old till today and strived to be nothing like him all my life. My biggest fear is becoming him. I found that comment painful thats all.
Thanks for all your input

Hi, I hope things work out. It isn't a decision I would make but we all have free will to do as we choose. I think you are kidding yourself to say you can protect your daughter, how do you plan to protect her from his words and questionable actions and the incredible chaos he will bring with him? It is like trading your daughters mental health for a pact with the devil.

I sincerely feel very sorry for your daughter. A child doesn't have to be physically harmed but emotional harm is the same without scars or bruises.

psychopath's are not able to be cured, even if he agreed to treatment, he won't stick with it and he will come out with even more tricks. There is an article here if you want that I can provide about the effects of therapy on psychopath's.

They can't get locked up unless they break the law and get caught, most of them walking around prefer to lock up others in their web of lies, deceit and broken hearts.

Di

I had a breakdown trying to keep my brother safe from our dad.

My counsellor at the time was the sort of counsellor who wouldn't give you any advice at all. She left me to work it out for myself. The whole process was very difficult and it took a long time (years). But, when all this stuff with my brother was going on, she kept telling me 'you must save yourself'. She said it again and again and again...every session we had, as I slowly fell apart.

And in the end it's what I had to do, otherwise it would have destroyed me completely. Several years on and I've sill not fully recovered from trying to save my brother, but I'm making progress.

A psychopath is someone who deliberately tricks and manipulates others. They know exactly where the boundary between right and wrong is, and they choose to step over that boundary, so that they can get what they want. They feel no guilt or remorse, they see it as their entitlement to take what they want from others (and society). It's a different way of being, a totally different way of being.

It's not really anything to do with the portrayal of psychopaths that you see in films, or that you read about in fiction. So I would advise you to educate yourself as to what a psychopath really is, by reading some of the other posts on this forum and by reading some of the links.

Think of it like going into a shop. You see something in the shop that you want. You (and I) know that you either buy it and pay for the there and then, or go away and save up for it if you can't afford it. A psychopath will go in with the intention of taking it without paying for it. They'll have even more fun if they chat to the shopkeeper a bit before they steal it...strike up a 'rapport', share a few jokes. Then they take it, when they see their opportunity, and just walk out. They won't feel guilt (like you or I would). They'll be thinking 'Jesus that shopkeeper was an idiot, he really set himself up there'.

They have found a way of being in which their innermost needs are met. They don't want to change, why would they? So why would they agree to therapy or counselling? Why would they want management or support?

Back to my brother. He knew more of what my dad had done than I ever did. And my brother kept saying to me 'but I'll have strong boundaries'. Again, you can't judge these people by the parameters of your own behaviour, because they're not thinking like that. In fact, they're setting out to exploit the parameters of your own behaviour. So I knew all along that this was a flawed and fatal assumption on my brother's behalf.

With our dad any relationship is totally, utterly and entirely always on his terms. There will never be any room or space for 'the other' because in our dad's eyes 'the other' has no right to anything. 'The other' is there purely as an object, to satisfy his own needs.

I admit, I had a lot of my own prejudices to confront when trying to unravel my dad's behaviour in my regards. It wasn't sexual assault (fondling and kissing) because it was his way of showing how much he loved me. It wasn't sexual assault because I didn't scream and shout and try and run away. It wasn't sexual assault because it wasn't some strange man jumping out from behind a bush in the middle of the night. It wasn't sexual assault because that couldn't possibly happen to a nice, polite, well educated middle class girl.

And again, we're back to the way these people think. They exploit all these assumptions, and more ('how can someone I know possibly do something like that?').

So, I would advise reading up on sexual assault, particularly from the point of view of a survivor. There's some great literature on this, well researched and passionately written.

The more you educate yourself, and the more you understand, the better position you will be be in to help yourself (and your daughter).

Hello,
I havent made a decision, i just find the information or discussion based on emotion, maybe its my take but i feels like hes been judged tried and sentanced without deliberation on how to take action, just send him packing.
I could limit contact through finding him and his partner a rental house near by. I could set rules.
The ramifications of impact on others in my community is of huge consern, not how to protect my daughter, i feel that would be easy, for instance if he should plead hard done by in my community that reflects upon me, if he crosses anyone here etc.
I cant control nor wish to control another person but I can influence. We influence our children, set rules and make boundys why not our parents too? Can you teach an old dog new tricks?
I my dealing with him since my 30's i have been intolerent of his exagerations or twists of the truth, his tantrums. Just like a adult dealing with a teenager who is testing the boundrys, and i do tend to treat him more like a sibling or child at times, he complains or is critical to others about my dealings with hm a times, or points out my own failings to my brothers or aunties but not to me directly, in a way that is sarcastic, like how can i say that when im not the perfect parent.
Yet he still turned to me for support.
True, you cant protect yourself from words. This is a problem. But dont we face these issues every day?

I had a few drinks last night with friends, one bought a friend, a guy she is trying to help, an alcoholic, he went to the toilet, via the alcohol cabinet, drank most of a bottle of whisky, was a state all of a sudden, we couldnt work out what he had taken but knew it was odd, anyway my point is, if i had known i could have hidden my alcohol,, he could have been accompanied to the toilet, no we shouldnt need to treat him like this but we could have, would have saved alot of headaches, protected us all, but i was never informed and was none the wiser. Im not sure if trying to help is going to be of any help, but when its family i question if its morally wrong for me to just convict, sentance and remove myself from his life because its easier than trying.
If you have a handicap child and its going to create hardship to you for as long as they live do you turn your back and say put them in a home?

Im just finding it difficult to get an objective responce or i dont want to read whats written. Unsure
But thank you for the time and energy. I shall now take the time to try and help with anothers issues in posting a reply.

Hey again,
I have just read and reread and read again a few posts, i do apologise if i offened anyone with my objective comment, it is not correct, they are in fact 1st person responses to trauma trying to help give me guidance.
I my self have always had a fairly clear and questionig opinion of my father. I have been affected growing up, i have never suffered like most (giving me more of a 3rd person objective) as i did not understand him. I felt like as i got older i could see his manipulation and it was just imature.
Morally ive always been different, the line of what he see as right or wrong and the line i see i just always felt were in a different place, i didnt imagine there was no line in his eyes. In saying this there have been times when i have used emotion, copied some of his manipulation, and realised i was doing it, much to my own disaproval, i realised it was just a tool id developed to help me deal with some situations i didnt know how to handle, i guess i need to look more deeply within to see if i do have any of his traits, hmmm
Thank you for your posts, i would apreciate the link offered to read more info,

To the other post, well done in moving away,

just some things that i have experienced in my life that have caused me alot of pain worthy of mention here.
If you cant change something that happened,
if you cant get a result that makes it better,
dont keep reliving it,
dont play it out in your head, dont recount the story to others,
make it into something, art, music, poetry
write it down in letters, maybe burn them afterwards, rid yourself of negative thoughts,

What i am saying is if you cant change what has happened bringing it up is only going to hurt you, never them, yes you want them to feel your pain, but they wont.

OK, so looking at it 'objectively', here are the facts, as described by you:

A man has a history of sexually assaulting girls in your family, namely your sister and both your step sister's girls. So there are three survivors here who have spoken out about being assaulted by this man.

This man is now looking to spend time in your home.

Your youngest daughter lives with you. She is the pretty much the same age as the two girls he has already sexually assaulted.

So, how does it sound? Objectively, of course.




That you are are posting here, on this matter, speaks volumes about the serious doubts you are having about this man. Both about what he has done to your other family members and also what you feel he is capable of doing to your child.




The pain of having lived through something like this myself is utterly excruciating, make no mistake about it. I am not one of these people to dwell on the past, I am extremely highly educated with a very successful career and happy family life. I am not 'a victim'. I was 'a survivor' and I was a survivor from the very first touch, fondle and kiss.

And yet, I have to deal with body reminding my of the trauma I went through (in all the symptoms I posted above). Sure, I have learnt to cope with it, and I cope with it very well. Were you to be a work colleague or even a family friend, you would have absolutely no idea that this has been part of my life.

It's certainly not the most significant thing to happen in my life (I would count love, marriage, family as those), but it certainly has been the defining part of my life. The sense of betrayal is beyond description. And with those come anger, rage, grief.

Survivors, like myself, view the world very much in terms of 'my side/his side'. On my side are those people who 'get it'. They not only 'get it' intellectually, they 'get it' at a gut level, and don't try to question or minimize my feelings. On his side are people who are at worst disbelieving, and believe me I've come across plenty of those, even in the medical profession (and I include psychotherapists here - the very people who should be there to help me!). And on his side are also those that are either silent on the matter, or try to be neutral. Because the crime that was committed against me demands a stance, you cannot remain neutral. If you're neutral you're questioning me, doubting me, which puts you over to his side.

Now, the only thing worse than having it happen to myself would be having it happen to my child. If I had the merest smidgen of doubt about someone I would do everything in my power to protect my child.


Therefore, no, my the man that assaulted me does not have access to my children. Nor does he have access to me. He has a track record of sexually assaulting women, starting with his own sister, 50 odd years ago and including me. There's not a chance in hell I'd let him anywhere near my children.

That he's my dad is incidental really. He's a man who has chosen to inflict pain and degradation on another person. It's that black and white.

Hey Starry,
Objectivly would be, he is a man acused of inapropriate behaviour, grooming.
He has not been charged, but could be, he would then be trialed and if found guilty convicted.
Long story short he may be inocent of all accusations.
If not he maybe given a mild sentance, as he has not to my knowledge actually gone far enough for serious charges to stick.

It was bought to my attention a week and a half ago.
I spoke to my sister whom has had an 8 year dispute, or long term estranged relationship over money with him.
She has a reason to say he did the same to her.

However given that i try to be impartial i tend to side with the girls, perhaps because i find him hard to be near for long periods of time, and i dont like who he is. I have always felt obliged to love and care for him, but i dont like him if that makes any sence at all lol.
It hard to draw a line, and take side when you dont know the facts or are uncertain about the truth,
we face this alot in our lives.

I had a partner, she was with me just over 2 years, i gave her a engagement ring and signed half my estate over into her name, she left 8weeks later for another man and put her hand out for the cash, she knew she had fallen in love with him when i asked her to sign the deeds, i knew i was losing her so i offered it, because i didnt know why she was distant and i wanted her to love me, she paid $1 for near on $100000 asset. I would have given her every cent i had if she returned the love i felt for her, she had fallen in love with another man, nothing i could do was right.
My friends and hers were ment to choose in my opinion, her or me, she had wronged me, anyone in the right mind could see i had been manipulated, screwed over. Someone with morals would have given me back my estate or said i cant sign, we need to talk.
Most friends sat on the fence, she hadnt crossed them. I couldnt believe it, they were my friends, they cared about me, yet most would not choose, even my brother whom had become close to us both. It hurt me alot.
So why do i mention all this, neutral doesnt mean you accept, like, agree or take the side of the other, it is normal instinctive behaiviour, if we have not be harmed ourselves by someone close to us how do we judge, sentance and punish them.
Its easier for someone who doesnt know the people involved, for someone removed to choose sides.
If you want to live a healthy life you just have to let go move on and forgive or try to block it out, well its a theory anyway
Well must go
He hasnt rung, and ive not rung him, i feel bad though
Cheers
Monty

Hi Monty,

The hallmark of Psychopathy is very shallow (if any) emotions and a total lack of empathy with other people, no conscience. They are profoundly emotionally immature and lack capacity for growth.
They have no ethics; no moral compass.
They have no emotional intelligence to speak of, but they have intellectual intelligence, which they mostly use to exploit others.
Just as there is no treatment to cure or correct color blind vision,
there is no treatment or cure to correct or improve psychopathy.
They don't have enough emotional functioning to be able to "desire" to be more feeling.
They can and do intellectually memorize and learn to use words that represent feeling states.
Words that cause people to feel emotional pain are very useful.
There are lots of insensitive people in the world, but psychopaths are far worse than "insensitive"
towards others - they are devoid of feeling for humanity.

There are several good books on it. Robert Hare's publications are the most comprehensive information.


While it's true that all adults who are abusive were usually abused themselves in childhood, it is NOT true that all abused children grow up to become abusive adults. The majority of abused kids DON'T. I don't recall the exact statistics but I seem to remember it being in the neighborhood of 70% or better. I asked the counselor I was working with following my separation, about this very thing, because the nightmare of abuse that erupted in my home made me realize that I had to have been blind in some way to not recognize warning signs of serious trouble. There were ways I had behaved, things I had NOT done and NOT said, that had made our home "abuse-friendly." Before that fateful day, at times he was emotionally abusive I hushed the kids and told them to go play quietly in the next room because "Daddy had a hard day", and I soothed him and let him use me as a target. I unwittingly trained my kids to tolerate abuse, to respond to it with kindness and sympathy, ignore it's assaults on their souls, and give love, respect, and loyalty to the man who dished it out-- because he was their Father. It was wrong. Was how I behaved Abusive? Yes, in that I Neglected to keep my children (and myself) SAFE. Parents are their children's models for how to behave in adulthood. I had modeled the wrong stuff and I had to change that, and I DID, bigtime. The kids and I also worked with counselors and that helped too, although they didn't exactly enjoy it. Yes, the light bulb has to want to change. I don't fool myself into thinking I entirely reversed the curse of long-term effects of abuse, but I have done everything in my power to reduce it and soften it and if I'm lucky it will make enough difference so my daughter can avoid marrying an abusive partner and my son won't abuse his future family.

There was abuse in my childhood past that set the stage for my marriage, for me to feel that when people abused you, it meant "they really Loved You." When a parent is your childhood abuser, (mine was my mother), love and abuse get connected and smushed together in your mind because abusers don't abuse ALL the time, they also give gifts occasionally and take you to the circus and the donut shop, and say that they care about you even though they also abuse you. There's enough good along with the bad and the ugly, that you grow up having a conflicted sort of love for that parent. In adulthood you are unconsciously attracted to partners who have subtle similarities; they "feel like Home", where you were Loved. That is one of the ways abuse recycles to the next generation: A child victimized throughout childhood becomes conditioned to being a target for abuse disguised as love. She/he can't tell its disguised because of never having experienced healthier expressions of love.

Don't kick yourself for dressing up your father's abuses, everybody in a relationship with a psychopath does it until something happens where they can't anymore, and because its scary as Hell to face the fact you've got an Inhuman being in your life. Once you do that you can't avoid worrying about how to keep yourself sane and your loved ones safe from harm. There are no easy solutions.


There's some good news here.
Many adults abused in childhood are so dedicated to NOT inflicting the same misery on their kids and to being a BETTER Dad (or Mom) to their kids than their abusive parent was to them, that they often have the opposite problems of being too "soft" and permissive, and they have difficulty setting reasonable boundaries for their kids behavior. Identifying "reasonable boundaries" and figuring out how to set them is hard because it wasn't modeled in the home they grew up in. Their abusive parent didn't respect any boundaries. An loving Adult who was abused in childhood knows the 'bad stuff' he doesn't want to repeat with his kids, but he may not know what to replace it with, and may have to consciously study and learn healthy, effective ways to interact with his kids when they act up.

When I said abuse recycles from generation to generation, I meant that one abuser living in a family home has a bad impact on every other person living there, one way or another. As Dianne said, it creates Chaos. Confusion and chaos interfere with the normal development of children's minds (including teens.)

Growing up, I knew a pair of sisters whose abusive mother treated them very differently, one she lavished praise on and never punished or corrected; the other she scapegoated and blamed everything on. One she called extremely bright and clever, the other she called her stupid and dim-witted and made cruel jokes at her expense. When the praised sister verbally attacked her scapegoated sibling, their mother egged her on and laughed and rewarded her with more praise. Adults now, the sisters have no contact with one another. the praised one believes the scapegoated one deserves to be loathed; the scapegoated one can't stand to be in the praised one's company because she recycles their mothers abuse. Their mother died a few years ago, but her abuse lives on through her favored daughter.


Sure, you can take precautions to avert disaster, but your kids aren't airplanes or cars. Psychopaths are clever at exploiting opportunities to manipulate people, and kids and teens are easy targets for that. Disagreements inevitably arise between parents and their teens over all sorts of things. Teens accuse their parents of not understanding them or of being stupid and unfair, that's an opportunity for the psychopath to support the teens outburst and join her/him in criticizing you.

This is long, sorry to write so much, I won't have time to revisit for a few days.

I think my Dad is jealous of every success I have had. My husband and I have done pretty well with buying/selling real estate and, at the mere mention of one of our properties, my brother becomes enraged so I know that my Dad has been working him. I have never "put on airs" or tried to make my brother feel bad about himself. In fact, I would go out of my way to try and make him feel good about his own accomplishments. Yet it is never reciprocated. I tried to encourage his daughter to go after her dreams and my Dad twisted it into me telling her to have nothing to do with her father. Every good intention or act that I have done for my father or anyone in my family is turned into something bad - where I am resented for it.

My Dad has always put down my job - constantly telling me I don't do anything, it's not really important, etc. But he would do so in a teasing manner so I didn't realize, at the time, it was bullying. I just would always feel like I wasn't good at my job or didn't deserve it, etc. I think he absolutely would love it if I failed - if I lost my job. He had a direct line to my boss's parents and negative impressions of me were spreading to my boss as well as managers in other states. My husband and I went to my boss's parents and spoke to them. We asked them to stop having anything to do with my Dad. At first they said - "oh, he hasn't said anything". I could see that they truly believed that - yet, as we talked longer, things started coming out and I realized that they had been told a lot - all negative, of course. In any case, they have honored our request so that valve has been shut off. Hopefully, over time, the negative impressions that were transmitted will dissipate.

My husband believes that, since my Mom died, my Dad has wanted me to fail at everything so that he can have me to do his every whim.

I didn't go to my Dad and tell him I knew what he does/what he is - but I did try to tell my brother and sister. So, of course, he has upped the venom to the point where they have nothing to do with me. I am sure that my part of the inheritance will be going to them even though I took care of Dad the last 10 years and they lived their own lives, visiting him maybe once a year. My inheritance has been used as a leverage point before so I am pretty sure that Dad has taken or will take steps to remove me from that. As he is 90 years old, has macular degeneration, and is not mobile, it is about the only thing he has left to hurt me with. He still calls about every 3 months and leaves mean messages on my cell phone. It is weird, because just hearing his voice, I start to doubt and again think "it was me". However, when I start thinking clearly and go through all that has happened, I get "back on track" and continue moving forward. It is very wearing and I just want it all to stop.

We are trying to sell some properties so we can move. The market seems to be coming back a little so, hopefully, we'll be able to move sometime this year. My Dad lives in a retirement home about an hour from us. My brother lives about 4 hours away and is planning to move my Dad in with him within the next few months. I can't wait until we are not even in the same state as my Dad.

Bringing your Dad into your home would be a mistake, I think. As I said in a previous post, even when I just hear my Dad's voice in a message on my cell phone, the doubts/shame/guilt returns. I believe he knows what he does but has been doing it for so long, he doesn't know any other way. Nor, do I think, he feels he needs to change. It has worked for him for years so, why change? He doesn't think there is anything wrong with him. I suspect your Dad is the same way. I agree that it is naive to think you can handle it. The web of lies, deceit, manipulation, control, etc is so strong and pervasive, there is no way to stand against it on all fronts. Even if your Dad didn't do any physical damage to your girls, the emotional and mental damage is devastating. You don't even realize it is happening. Please don't expose your girls or yourself to that. I read somewhere that often the targets of these people end up with heart problems. My mother died of heart disease. I have just been diagnosed with mitral valve prolapse. It is an insidious evil. The best way to protect yourself, and your girls, is to maintain some space from your Dad. You need to be able to think clearly.

Just my opinion.

Hi Monty, I admire you in making a well thought out approach before making any decisions about your dad moving in. I hope hearing from other survivors who had walked in your shoes helps in coming to a conclusion that you feel is best for you and your daughter.

When you mentioned not really being able to be around him, maybe you might consider making a list of ways that it will impact you and your daughter being with him, his wife and young child full time. How will you handle the chaos, lies, pitting everyone against each other? If you don't have solutions to all his already known actions then you might consider it in a fresh light. Once a P latches onto a good deal all bets are off.

Just as a suggestion for your pros and cons:

Pro (why he should move in: (this will probably be the hardest one to fill in.)

Con: my daughter will more likely than not be hurt
You can't possibly monitor him 24/7.
How will you deal with him yourself on a full time basis
It is likely that once in your home he will never leave.
He will never accept any boundaries
What happens if he gets ill, does that mean he stays in your life forever?
If he passes away do you then have the responsibility of his wife and child?

He evidently burned your sister quite badly, if you are comfortable what did your sister say he did to her, evidently it must have caused a wedge to not have spoken to her in so long. A healthy relationship with your sister sounds like a better deal all the way around for you and your daughter. Others here have been sharing their experiences, maybe explore some techniques that worked for them to remove their P dad. Normally the only recommended plan is no contact under any circumstances.

I think it is wonderful that you contacted your sister, perhaps spending more time exploring what her experience was like. Ask your sister what she would do if she were in your shoes. It is really a turning point decision that could impact you and your daughters entire life course.

Di

Hi Sinkler,

I would have to agree your dad is jealous on our terms in his world it probably takes a more hateful meaning. Spreading lies, anger that he doesn't have or figured out a way to steal it for himself.

They don't have it in them to acknowledge someone, even their own family of doing well the hard way with working and acheiving without scheming and lying.

Just out of curiousity did your dad ask you for money or was there a specific trigger that got him off and running with the lies?

That took a lot of courage and I admire you and your husband for letting your boss and his wife see things more clearly.

Di

Yes, there was definitely a trigger. When my boyfriend and I decided to get married, my Dad came to us and asked us if we wanted to buy the house he was in. He wanted to live with an old girlfriend on the other coast. So, we agreed to buy the house at fair market value at the time. We lived there 3 years and spent all of our time and money repairing, remodeling, etc. It was cute as a bug when we got finished. My Dad and my brother never failed to criticize all the work we did.

In any case, during that 3 years, my Dad moved back to the area (having had a blow-out with his lady friend). He had spent all the money he made from the sale of the house on the mobile home that he and his lady friend had lived in. He said he just "gave it to her" when he left. I don't know if any of that was true. So, my husband and I purchased a mobile home (in a senior community) using our equity line of credit. Dad made rent payments which almost covered our line of credit payments.

Dad had lived in the mobile home we bought for about 1 year at which time my husband and I moved 4 hours north due to my job. Dad made my life hell when we moved - "You're leaving your father" and "I spoke to your mother last night (My Mom is dead) and she said she's sorry I sold you the house", etc. I carried a huge degree of guilt over all that and he played upon that. He uses my dead mother often to make me feel bad - telling me that he will tell her how I treated him when he sees her again.

Anyway, my brother lived 15 minutes away so it wasn't like I was leaving him alone. Dad also was still able to drive at that time at the time we moved.

Because of all the remodeling we had done as well as the real estate market at the time, we made a hefty profit on the sale of the house. We payed off the mobile home he was in so he didn't need to make any more rent payments to us. We carried a mortgage on the new home we had purchased. Still, my Dad made comment that "people" think we should have given him some of the money we made on the house. I felt we had done so by providing a nice mobile home that he could have stayed in for the rest of his life without paying any more than the year of rent payments he had given us previously. It's something I found out that he had told many people - of course, making us out to be the villians who he "gave" the house to and didn't give him any of the proceeds when we sold. He neglects to tell them about the mobile home he didn't have to pay for.....or all the work/time/money we spent on the house while we lived there.

'Hey' Monty

Sorry, but that's the second time you've told me I should be 'moving on', 'letting go', 'forgiving' and words to that effect.

I'm really rather angered and hurt by that. You either have absolutely no idea of the depth of my trauma, or you're brainwashed by your own psychopath into thinking that none of it is that bad.

Never heard anything so utterly preposterous, as instructing a multiple rape survivor to 'forgive' her rapist and get on with her life.

Last time I take time (and energy) to comment on your thread.

Starry, I sincerely apologize, I should have caught this the first time this came up. Your Mother Hen must have been asleep at the keyboard.


To avoid any confusion we all need to pay attention to the way our community presents and asks questions.

Terms of Service and Guidelines

•Information on personal experience and successful coping strategies are encouraged but it is not acceptable to dictate to other members, just to note what you found helpful.

If there are any questions or comments I am always available by email.

dianne@psychopath-research.com

dianne77@msn.com

Di

Hi Dianne

No worries at all. It's actually something I've been working on with my OT (stating how I feel if someone has upset me and establishing a boundary to help me feel safe), so it's fine really

Thank you

I wrote to my 17 year old step sister, this is what i have said to her as i feel i want to find out more,
reason 1 so i can hav the strenght and knowledge to confront Dad or a just reason to turn him away and
2 so that she feels i am willing and able to help.


From what ive been told Dad has been accused of inapropriate touching. He denys this then again why wouldnt he, its not something you would be proud of if you had done it. He isnt going to go around saying yes i did and lock me up please.
He claims it is part of his interpritation of a bond between father and daughter, cuddling, tickling etc, no doulbt if his version is untrue this would be upsetting to the victim. Hence my concern that i will upset you. Your mum has asked if they can move here, but my guess is dad asked her too, they find the farm to hard to run with her being unwell.
I said that you and ... could come here. He didnt seem keen on that idea. Possibly because that would limit his options or possibly to do with what you might tell me.
Then if you did i wouldnt have to deal with dad, selfish of me. I feel obliged to love and care for him as he is my father but i find him like a teenager and hard work sometimes, that he doesnt in my mind mature or grow as he gets older, just stays the same, like a 20 year old.
Anyway, big concern is you Your sisters and mum,
Dad is able to look after himself if he had to, but if convicted and you mum passes away from the cancer ..... will become a foster child, i would like to see you all stay close, together, you ....... and.,,,,, and if i could your mum, obviously this has ramifications,
you could stand up to dad and say you will never accept certain behaviour, move back and make sure he towed the line.
my guess is it to late for that,
or you wait until mum if passes away if she did (this is an asumption that the cancer will resurface, if it was actually cured in the first place, i suspect not) I know its not nice to talk about but it has to be thought through and talked about
So if you were already together in a loving home, .... would be placed with you in that home if dad was deemed unsuitable as a role model. That is also why i offered you to come here.
Im sure Others would have .... but i have my own doulbts about if that is the best for anyone.

You act very mature and grown up, perhaps through dad given a false ego, you are still young, you arnt the best at everything, you are normal, dad from my memory is always so proud of his family makes us all feel like we are better than average, any way what im trying to say is dont be sure you know what you are doing and processing in your head, you need counciling and guidance to make decisions
I know there is alot to think about and lots going on, your only young and i guess dealing with some tough issues so no matter what happens i want you to know that even thought you may end up estranged from dad i am here for you.
If you were here i would put your interests first. You would face leaving all your friends behind and starting a fresh yourself. I suggest you talk to a councilor about this email so you are able to address all that i have writen with objective advice, no matter what happens you can call me any time, text or ask for my help

Firstly the start of the responce is titled "Hey Starry", the rest is not directly below that title!!!
Secondly taking things out of context can always lead to offence if YOU wish it to.
For instance Monty
"if you let him in you would be foolish." now i am a fool
"I agree you are nieve" now im nieve
"you're brainwashed by your own psychopath" now i am brainwashed by my pet phsycopath

The context could be percieved as offensive or as more direct than my GENERALISED obersvation on my life, on why I had chosen to let go of my anger towards my friends under line my friends hint hint, "my" as written my theory, what helped me!!!!. The conversation was about friends and family chosing sides not you choosing to forgive a multiple rapist i have absolutly NO knowledge of. Yes you can read it your way if you wish to, but if you actually read it you get its full CONTEXT
You may well be upset, but doe that give you the right to lash out and find fault with people obviously dealing with there own issues, it maybe in your eyes a trivial crisis. But my email was written with polite, positive intent, me giving you my time to say hey, this helped me! Not you must do as i say! And to make it a tool of wrong and evil is hurtful and abusive yourself. Yes i said twisting peoples words makes you abusive yourself!
Yes im am anoyed at your note and that you are so bitter when i have done nothing but be kind, perhaps not intelegent as i havent had to deal with this stuff before and of course im nieve and foolish so this wont help either, but kind and you being obviously so consumed with bitterness, (perhaps quite justifiably) are better not to make posts!
Pish posh

Dear Starry and Monty,

I have read all your posts and feel for both of you. We are a community of survivors searching for answers to questions that have plagued our lives for a long time. Sometimes that search gets frustrating as we uncover truths that make us uncomfortable.

But we must NEVER attack one another (either knowingly or unknowingly) because we are all on the same team and our solidarity is vital to our collective strength.

All over the world, revolutions are occurring. People are rising up against the psychopaths who have ruled without compassion. Even in America, there are political psychopaths who are trying to destroy unions and ultimately divide the United States of America. Most of us on these message boards are struggling with the divisive, diabolical psychopaths in our families, work places, among our friends, and in our neighborhoods. We are from every nation, from every creed, of every race and gender. We need to uphold one another...not upset each other. Speaking the truth (as we see it and have experienced it) is very crucial to our healing.

But sometimes in the heat of the moment, while responding to a post, we might be too bold in our comments and it rubs somebody the wrong way. Keyboard communication prevents us from looking into someone's eyes and realizing he/she meant no harm in what was said. You both strike me as kind, caring people and your postings are very valuable to this community. Thanks so much for your contributions.


Hugs to both of you,
Mouton

Is it common for a psychopath's target to have doubts about their assessment from time to time? What I mean is, although I know in my heart, soul, and gut that my Dad is a psychopath, I have doubts sometimes and go back to thinking it's just me - that there is something wrong with me......

Money and power has a similar theme to it with your dad and mine, there is an element of similarity at times. I have said before, we can all use emotion to paint a picture to suit our situation that is in our mind the events that unfolded. Your version of the motorhome, house sale will be different to his, does that make you a phsycopath? I think not, but i dont know for sure, i ? myself too, I think its more the use of emotion as a tool, white lies, twisting of the truth to maniplulte emotion all around you, using his so called friends opinions (that were probably impartial and said nothing) to make you feel guilt. Its these behaiviours that makes in my opinion the difference between normal and Phsycopath from what i am reading it reinforces that opinion.
The thing i noticed with my dad is i saw it from a child, i grew to accept it, if i want to be part of a family, see my mother, have christmas's at home, sunday dinner I had to accept that morally i didnt like my father, i loathed aspects of his behaviour, but going against it was distructive to everyone else, the family unit, once mum died we all just stopped being a family, my sister never saw her dad as shallow until she was 30, it devistated her, it still haunts her daily.
I do struggle with the concept of mine also being classed as a phsycopath, but the more i learn the more i feel he always was, has been. We all self doulbt, you are normal.
My dad has still managed to create some great things, do some special things in this world, but always greed or hunger for more destroys it, i used to always think he just risked more than most, took huge chances that made him brave or foolish unevolved or greedy.
So given that he is one, will always be does that make him evil, or just unhealthy to be around intolerable to a degree.
I think it would be nicer to think he is mentally unevolved, child like, dangerious no doulbt, but i supose it depends on you ability to see the risks and block them. hmm food for thought.

In answer to your question, we are all growing, learning, nobody is perfect, having the ability to question yourself is a wonderful asset, you will grow and learn faster with an open mind, you not normal your above average

Thanks Mouton, it is important for our community to keep with the tone of how we addres the issues at hand. The forum is here for the community and working things out is very healthy.

I hope we can use this as a learning experience.

I have never tried to play a heavy hand but the guidelines were well thought out to make our community a safe and informative place to share and heal.

If there is any further info needed please refer to the Terms of Service which clearly outlines our approach to provide a healthy environment for our members who are posting and reading.

Enough said, if anything is unclear please email me directly so this conversation can move forward.

Di

Hi Sinkler,

At your father's instigation, you bought his house from him at fair market value. Your father profited.
Then he went off and squandered the sale proceeds.

When he returned and needed a place to live you took out a Home Equity line-of-credit/loan to buy him a mobile home. Your father profited.
He paid monthly rent which almost-but-not-quite covered your monthly loan payments.

You invested money and labor into upgrading and improving the house you'd bought from him, thereby increasing it's value.
Your father and brother contributed nothing but criticism to your efforts.

You had to move for work. Your improvements increased the house's value, it fetched a higher sale price, enabling you to pay off your father's mobile home. Your father profited.

He should have expressed gratitude and appreciation for your kind and generous support; instead he used your deceased mother to press your Guilty buttons with, and spread lies around to villify you and your husband.

He's a Big Meany.
Looks to me like a psychopath ticked off because his Cash Cow and favorite target for criticism moved out of convenient target range.

Your father is exploiting the fact that you care about what others think of you. He's using your own emotions against you.
I don't know how he's able to use your deceased mother to trigger you to feel bad...how can you put any stock into what he says about that?
I mean, if you believe that she hears what he tells her now, well then she hears you too, and sees all from where she is, and knows what a liar he is.
His accusation "you're leaving your Father" is just a manipulation tactic; think about it -- it wasn't emotionally wrenching for him to sell you his house and go live on the opposite coast.

I won't tell you to not feel bad about the lies he's told everyone. I've had that happen and know how crappy it feels. Happens after you've "moved away" and aren't likely to discover it for awhile, aren't "around" to get wind of it and defend yourself. If anyone you care about is buying his lies, well.... the best way to kill lies and expose the liar is to counter the lies with irrefutable evidence of fact.

It might be worth your time and trouble to photocopy a couple documents to send to them:
1) your bill of sale for the house (or whatever Proof you have on file that you purchased his house from him)
2) your title/purchase deed, of the mobile home
Send them with a brief note saying something like: "It's come to our attention that Dad has told various people we cheated him. It pains me to imagine you'd think that of me, so I'm sending these just to clear up any misperceptions you may have. We paid Dad for the house, and after he squandered the money we paid him for the house we bought him the mobile home he lives in now. We don't know how he spent the house money. He reimbursed us $ XXXX [list total amt of monthly rent he paid for the one year] towards our expense for his mobile home. We made so many improvements and upgrades to the house that we were able to sell it for more than we paid him for it, and we applied the additional proceeds to pay off his mobile home.

If you do something like that, don't tell your father. He doesn't need advance notice and opportunity to attempt more lies to cover his first lies. (for example, He might tell them you forged documents to send to them.)

You don't deserve to feel guilty. You paid him the going market value for his house. He blew the money. That's his fault, not yours.

Monty,
I want to make two comments on these remarks you made:

"So given that he is one, will always be, does that make him evil, or just unhealthy to be around, intolerable to a degree.
I think it would be nicer to think he is mentally unevolved, child like, dangerous no doubt, but i suppose it depends on your ability to see the risks and block them."


Do you really think it's possible to block all the risks?... because no one, no matter how highly motivated, can control everything in life.

Accidents happen, emergencies of various sorts occur, and unpredictable circumstance arise: you have to work late; one of your daughters gets sick with the flu and goes home from school early. If you had an accident, injury, or severe illness that necessitated hospitalization there would be no one at home with the strength or authority to "block" him. Same thing, if you had to suddenly take one of your children, or a neighbor, to a clinic. Your father's wife is no protector...she was around when your father inappropriately-touched your step sisters, was she not?
Any time you'd leave your children at home with him is a risk.

Does being a psychopath make him evil or just unhealthy to be around.
Try to imagine yourself in the shoes of your step-sisters, imagine it was a teenager YOU that he felt-up and touched inappropriately.


Food for Thought...

Mentally un-evolved?...yes, but Psychopaths are not "child like"...they are emotionally infantile...babies, but unlike babies they are harnessed to ADULT intellects and bodies. A baby's tantrum is a noisy nuisance, but he doesn't have enough physical power to hurt anybody, he can't break furniture and windows, can't physically assault others and so on, he doesn't have the intellectual power or ability to trick and deceive others.
The psychopath is a baby who HAS those powers.

I came across a comparison in a book one time, that I thought aptly described the difficulty of living with a psychopath.
It said a psychopath could be likened to a military tank commanded by a baby.
Think of the tank as a powerful adult body and intellect.
The commander sitting inside the tank is the baby, who "deploys" the tank to either outwit, wound, or destroy, whoever gets in the way of what the baby wants.

Hi Sinkler, your father will always be the victim, Kate is wise in telling you to put together the documents. For no other purpose it will put this thing to rest by doing a spreadsheet to follow the trail based on all the dealings. Was he paying fair market value in rent? Did he skip out on any rent payments or ask for any additional money that you can account for? Was the title to the trailer in his name?

I am guessing that if it is all collected and analysed you will proably find out he was the one who benefited. I feel like so what, someone else could have bought the house and fixed it up and benefited financially, that is how things work, just because that person was you is a crazy argument of his. Beyond the direct funds to fix the house up, I would think your "sweat equity" had a value also. I would imagine that if you hadn't paid off the trailer you and your husband would have had that money to pay a higher deposit down to lower your mortgage payments.

If you haven't already I think putting all the figures, dates etc. on a spreadsheet will give you the clear idea that I suspect he benefitied not you.

You have done nothing wrong. Hold you head up high and know that these are the facts of the situation. Even if you don't show this information that is compiled to anyone else it may put these false accusations to rest in your mind.

Do you really think your brother will follow through and take him in?

Di

Hi Kate,
No it is impossible to block every risk, that is life though.

I agree with your comments, my comment on childlike is derived from my dads behaiour not his looks:) his undeveloped maturity, as you said emotion, he can pretend to be caring and upset, yet his actions show a different attitude from his words.
My mother died of cancer, in her final months i would go cook, share time and sit with her, or lay on her bed with her, talk, reminess, comfort, massage her back. I would say why doesnt dad do this for you, with you, while he would watch tv. She just said matter of fact, he wont. She didnt seem that upset by this, she had accepted it, he is the way he is would be something that comes to mind that she may have said. I think alot of the time she was able to handle him, manage him to a degree.

When my mum died, he proclaimed was the best husband the world had ever seen, well this is an exageration on my behalf, but he was proud of himself, so many years of marrage, not many people are like me and your mum. He convince everyone, and himself, boasted how great they were, moaned how much he missed her, how we didnt visit or ring enough, that his life was now hollow and empty without her making people feel sorry for him.
My attitued was if you were so great you could have showed that to mum when she were alive and eased her pain with a back rub, it irritated the heck out of me, what an ass he actually was.

He isnt a pedophile, he is a uses emotion to manipulate even though he actually doesnt seem to feel these emotions. Love is an emotion, touching is part of a loving bond.
I can imagine myself in the shoes of my step sisters, i was conserned about them living as we all did, grew up with him as our role model, i think i am ok, i am me, not a replication of him. They are nice girls, they are damaged but not broken, they have survived, would have survived, they may have issues now that they wouldnt have from living with someone like him but they are physically healthy, capable of moving forward mentally, perhaps stifled but sound.
I believe he has been pushing the boundrys in this area trying to make them love him, if that love is there there is a bond, a power over them, control. I can see if the person being groomed fell in love, wanted to have a sexual relationship i think he would, to maintain power or control, not out of love.
He did manipulate me, or try, as a adolesant i rebeled at 15, i loathed him, he lost his control, he lost my respect, but i grew to manage him, to accept him, see through his sentances, pick fractions of truth and reality from his conversations. It wasnt that hard or dangerious, just irritating. He did affect my life alot, even when i was independant, i see that or saw it, but as i grew i stengthend my defences, i became the role model and him the child.

Id like to think i help protect my daughter every day, i talk to her, about her friends, people in the community, their behaviour, how to cope with situations, about boys, about life. She may not fully understand what i am saying but i am giving her another prospective and opening her mind to a different level of maturity, she grows as she sees things and she matures. I dont and cant always be there to protect her, she will go out into the world on her own without me, but if i over protect her, if she is never exposed to any danger doesnt that make her more vulnerable. My job is to teach her how to survive, cope, try 2 be happy and be there for her when things go wrong, help put her back together when a boy breaks her heart. Im gratful to be able to share the good stuff too, it the bonus that comes from the responciblity.

My dad would try and manipulate her, but knowledge or understanding helps manage to protect.
Baby in a tank is a good comparison, and funny. Hes not that strong. Im not saying he wouldnt affect her, living in the same community as anyone affects you. He wouldnt live in the same house, i would find him a house close by.
Do i want too take him in?, no, do i think the risk is warranted, not really, maybe, perhaps, there are others to consider, not just him to think of. His new wife, step daughters and baby. His impact on my life, my daughters, my sibblings, and the wider community. His impact would be hard, it would affect me both negatively and positively, more so negatively, but i feel i have the tools myself to cope, if i had to. Yes i have a choice, im working through options, you are a tool for working through this process, i am grateful to you for your thoughts and help.

Hi Monty, what does your sister think about the help you would give him to move closer to you? Will that destroy any chance of a relationship with her? If so then it is also denying your daughter the ability to have relatives she can know and spend holidays with and learn how families operate together on a functional level.

I am not clear why you have been out of contact over a money issue she has with your father?

Sinkler brings up a very important aspect of when a Psychopath in the family has access to those people you know. Unfortunately the behind the back stories and lies that catch people off guard can be quite harmful.

If your home and lifestyle which you well deserve becomes one of his targets things can get uncertain how he tells this to others and the picture he paints about you. There is never enough, if your house is bigger etc. than his, he will be the victim, the fact you are paying for his house won't make a difference in what lies he might spread.

Just out of curiosity is there a particular reason the house you will be providing him will be in your community?

Di

Hi Di,
My sister would feel sorry for me but not bitter toward me.
She and dad as i said had their own falling out about 8 years ago, she was his little girl until then.
Mum had passed and she offered to care his business and of financials for him, I had refused to get involved as i did not want to have any finacial deals with my father, i made excuses, but the truth was id been burned by him before.
Her intent
Doing what was best to support a man nearing retirement, use his business to procure a profit to give him a moderate income to support himself.
She was hurting after the loss of her mum, this made her vulnerable, she wasnt thinking straight, she was also angry at me for not being willing to do what she had to do, as i was more qualified.

He was aparently devistated with the loss of his wife and couldnt bear to run his own business, he couldnt give it to his daughter or any of his sons, he was however living in a freehold house and could have gone on a widows allowance.
He could not bear to be in the house, he needed to travel the world to get over the loss, he couldnt work for a living either, she was to support him, she had promised she would while in a weak moment grieving the loss of mum.

He spent more than she could cover with profit, the business was failing,his outgoings caused an negative affect on the business, and because they were new at the industry, had a different approach etc it was going downhill fast.
As far as he was concerned she needed to run it better, he could make a profit so could she, she continued to support him, mortgaging her own house, Diversified, changed the dynamics of what he had left her in charge of, he just kept taking until she was at almost breakdown point, she was confused, struggle to understand him, then realised he was a selfish man, but it was still a bit cloudy, she had been blinded by her own love for him, daddys little girl.

With the help of lawyers, friends, accountants she capped a value on the business to buy him out to destress the situation, a business she never wanted but now she felt it was so altered and burdened with debit that she needed to get him out, out forever, his tantrums, his agression, he was at time embarresing to her.
The value she came up with was in truth far beyond her own capabilities of paying him and in my opinion more than the business was even worth let alone what she had already given him over the past 24 mths or so.

My sister never let on to her father the strain he was causing her, her marrage, her own sanity, she didnt wish to burden him with it but she was comming to the end of her patience.

She was facing potential bankrupcy, and was unable to pay him his payments, she told him she would have to stop paying him until she could turn things around, he said that was fine, 2 weeks later he went in to see if she had any money for him, she said she didnt.
3 weeks or so after that he rang her, it was his grandsons birthday, she presumed he had rung to wish him happy birthday, he asked for money, she under a huge strain, boiled over, told him he was not her father any more she had had enough of his overwhelming selfishness.
She wrote to him, told him to .... off basicly.

He keeps this letter in a nice safe place, to prove how hurt he is.

They havent properly spoken since and shes happy to continue that way. He believes she still owe's him, tells everyone she does.
She ended up selling her home as debit was still to high, he wanted his money from the sale, luckily he didnt get it.

She still doesnt have her own home, but she is still married, and still running the business, she made it a success.
I was always proud of her, if not for the extereme he put her through she may never have had the determination to suceed, the change of life style, she went from unemployed to success, she was slightly lost in life before all of this.

I agree with my sister whole heartedly over the issues she had.

He still continues to embelish his own story, have seen him 3 times in 5 years each time we have had heated arguments when he trys to tell me how he misses her, then moves onto how she has never paid him what she owes him, its always the same, its like he believes his own version far removed from reality.

The reason he wishes to move in with me is i have a tourist complex, with 24 rooms, house restaurant etc. Good pickings lol.
I wouldnt cost me anything to give him a room or 2 until he got out from under my feet, but i still dont want him here. As far as paying for him to go elsewhere i cant, but my brothers can have him!!!

Well that was a novel

Hi everyone, I am a newbie here.
I am 40 (male). I have recently began to be convinced that my father has ASPD. I guess it doesn't really matter if he is clinically or not. I am not a psychologist and I am not qualified to say that he is or is not. The term is a label but the label might help to understand why he behaves in the way he does.

I had a violent childhood, my father beat me and my brothers repeatedly and with extreme agression. He would sometimes wake us up for these beatings, and sometimes he used a studded belt. Other times he would repeatedly punch us in the face. As far as I can tell, this began very young. My earliest memory is him throwing a shoe at my brother and I, he was frustrated we could not tie our laces. I was 4, my brother was 3. My youngest brother was so badly beaten, he was off school for 2 weeks, his face was so swollen, you could barely see the tip of his nose. He was 8.

After the age of 16, the beatings tailed off, I always figured he thought I might fight back. Even so, I was terrified of him and remained so until very recently. Phonecalls/e-mails and visits with him were terrifying, I would always try to curry favour and get in his good books. Despite this, he rarely had a good word to say about me or my achievements. They mostly met with disdain. As I now live an 8 hour drive from him and spend a lot of time abroad, it became easier to have less contact with him. He would often have some feud or other running with one of my brothers or his brother/sister. Only recently, my youngest brother and I realised that he has been playing various family members off agaaist each other in a complex web of deceipt. We discovered that some of our own fallings out were engineered by him. As encounters with him led me to extreme anxiety and loss of sleep, I eventually decided to terminate my relationship with him. I put it off for years because I felt I had a duty to my Dad to keep some kind of relationship going. But walking away was the best thing I ever did. I feel free, its a huge burden removed.

As for the APSD, the two things that really brought this home to me were two conversations I had with him, spread over a couple of years. The first was when I bought a dog, he advised me that having a dog was much like a kid, beatings were necessary and in both cases one had to have them under heel by 3 years old. The second conversation was about marital problems I was having in my first marriage. I told him things were not good in the bedroom department, she was not interested. My father said, I should just force her into it. Both conversations shocked me to the core.Partly becasue of the content of his suggestions but also because he thought it was perfectly OK to speak in this way.

As I began to study psychology as part of doctoral research I am doing, I began to hear more about the lack of remorse or guilt associated with APSD. I became incresingly curious about it. He is certainly the kind of guy, people pick out straight away, there is smoething about him, something dangerous. If I bumped into him as a stranger, I am sure I would give him a wide berth.

I know it is impossible to diagnose without a proper DSM diagnosis, so I am not asking for that. At the end of the day, what he dis was wrong, regardless. I am pretty sure I am in the right place to find out more about it though.

Hi APOGS!

What motivated you to rise above your nightmare childhood? According to many statistics on abused children, you would have been justified in becoming an abuser or career criminal after such cruel treatment from your dad. Yet, you have chosen to climb not only the ladder of success, but the mountain of moral integrity and compassion. Good for you!!!

As a 58 year-old woman, I have only recently come to accept the truth about my dad. He is a self-serving, unkind, manipulating, controller who also creates chaos among family members and then sits back and gloats over his ability to cause division and distress! Regardless of what label is assigned to people who are intentionally cruel, they are depraved beings who will NEVER change!! It is imperative to disconnect from such people and have NO CONTACT with them!

This is not being unkind...it is being wise and prudent. Such wisdom is vital in protecting your heart, mind, and soul. You are on the right path to truly saving your life! I wish you peace and strength on your journey of discovering great truths and applying those truths to your life.


Hugs to you,
Mouton

Hi guys, thanks for your very kind words. I think fear is just as potent as physical violence, so I don't think my experience is worse or better than others. Living with these kinds of people is hellish. Fear was the biggest factor throughout my childhood and still be biggest problem when I was dealing with him. I think you are right that disconnecting is the only solution. My emotions towards my father ranged from cringing fear to overwhelming hostility and when I was younger I often fantasised about revenge. Fortunately, I grew up!

My brother has been diagnosed with complex PTSD as a result and is getting help. I think he may well sever his connection. My other brother seems to be emulating my dad in many ways, which is a worry.

Hi Monty, well he may not cost you much in food costs but in areas you will never imagine, like running off your employees.....

I smiled when I was reading your post, it sounds like you have taken him off the list of future visitors?

Are you in contact with your brother/s. I am very happy to read the pride when you speak of your sister, she really took it in the chops but great for her to make gold from ashes. The stress of the business had to be bad enough....to keep her sanity and her family together is quite a feat.

You mentioned your "dad" was too distraught over the death of your mum, I don't think a Psychopath can be distraught over anyone outside of themselves, it was probably a handy way to dump things to his kids to handle while he traveled around.

How far away does your brother who may take him in live? I assume this brother is by now convinced what rats you and your sister are and he will be the hero.

Pity him,

D

Hi APOGS, welcome the forum, this must be Psychopath dad week. In a different kind of way it must be a relief to understand why things were happening with the way and cruelty involved. It wasn't about you and nothing you could have stopped or understood as a young person.

Your brother could be also showing learned behaviour. Is he still in close contact with your dad?

It sounds like your brother has suffered from PTSD for quite awhile, it must relieve you to know he is getting the help he needs.

I hope to hear more of your path to discovery but only when you feel ready or want to.

Glad you found us here.

Di

I combined all the "dad" threads to this one place, kind of a record with so many at once recently.

Starry, how excellent for you that you are beginning to establish healthy boundaries! I learned about establishing boundaries in therapy as well. Isn't it amazing how they work? I no longer have contact with my Ex, the psychopath, simply because that is the only solution to protect myself. This was a process that took months, and it began by establishing boundaries. I can now apply boundaries when dealing with other unhealthy people/draining situations (such as when dealing with my narcissistic mother.) Boundaries will not change the other person, but they will help protect you from the pain of other peoples actions/words. It is good to hear that things are going well with your OT.

Heya,
No, ive never felt rudeness was a good quality, so to answer your question, i have always had an open door policy to my children, brothers, sister, Dad,x wife, friends etc. Blocking my father would seem rude to me, if anyone else is welcome to visit why shouldnt my father. The line is moving in on a perminent or semi perminent basis, that is where things change.
My brothers and sister all live within 15 minutes of eachother, i live 500km south of them and our father moved away after his fall out with my sister, he is about 1500 km north away from them.
You never picked up on the sarcasim in my story about how my dad and sisters relationship desolved then? I always knew who he is, i read his actions and motives, his manipulations of the events. Thats why i struggle with the idea of a phsycopath, if its that obvious to me then surely its obvious to many, if its obvious to many and he is trying to fool people or act , play a role out for a means to an end then i always felt it was because he was not aware he was doing it, lacked the interlect, maturity to understand, to step outside his actions and reflect. Child like at an emotional level.
When our children do it its a tantrum ,or behaviour problems, now if an adult does it he is a phsyco, lol.
Baby in a tank, The leader of North Korea must surely be clasified as a phsycopath?
My brothers are much the same as me, they dont want him, Just one has a wife whom is adimant he isnt going there but what do you do if he is begging at your door? Call the cops?
Its very hard to turn your back.
And as i said, there are others in this, his wife, shes not bright but she isnt a bad person, my half sister and my step sisters, who is it that said charity begins at home, bastard!
I do find it helpful to read others storys and some of the replys, just to build an understanding. It does strike me that there is a huge variety of levels of severity.

Cheers
Monty

Hi Monty,

I'll paste some of your comments, and my thoughts below them.

1) ... he can pretend to be caring and upset, yet his actions show a different attitude from his words.

Yes. Psychopaths don't care if their actions match their words, only sometimes--when they are working to con someone into TRUSTING them. They use false pretenses to gain trust, some researchers call psychopaths "Trust Bandits" for that reason. I think you were a very perceptive 15-year-old, to be able to look through your anger and hard emotions, and see what was Real and what was Fiction.

As many years as your mother lived with him, if she was as perceptive as you are, I bet she knew for a long time before she died exactly how he was.
She likely did 'manage' her life around him and his limitations, and may have used certain strategies that helped regulate some of his behavior. I also bet that you were a far greater comfort to your mother than your father ever could have been, because you sincerely loved her. Even if you or she had managed to get him to massage her back or simply sit with her, doesn't sound like he could have done it in a caring way.

2.) ...he was proud of himself, so many years of marriage, not many people are like me and your mum. He convinced everyone, and himself...

I almost laughed, reading that your Dad measured the success of their marriage by the years. He may never have felt any empathy in his life (for her or anyone) and been totally incapable of recognizing, much less expressing gratitude for, the "emotional substance" of their marriage...but YEARS are more tangible, you can count those. In a serious vein, I'm sure he actually did feel HOLLOW after her death. Psychopaths depend on the people they latch onto, for obtaining feelings of Security --like Remora fish (sucker fish) depend on sharks and other large fish for meal security and physical survival in the ocean. He may not have had any conscious awareness that he depended on her. So okay, not nice that he glommed onto everyone for sympathy and attention..but not really surprising either..."its always all about him/her" when you're talking about a psychopath.

And here's an different but also common reaction:
The psychopath my father was married to, wasn't SAD he'd became sick and died, she was ENRAGED at her loss of security and 'Self.' She punished his corpse by refusing to sign a release order for either burial or cremation. She made hundreds of raving, threatening phone calls: to my father's attorney, to the director of the funeral home where his body was stored, to me, to all my father's relatives; and she all but destroyed the inside of their mobile home. I had to go there accompanied by the county sheriff, to retrieve my father's Personal Effects. The inside of the place looked like all the demons of Hell had partied there. She had smashed all the china and glass in the place by hurling it at the walls; she used matches to singe and burn all photographs that included my father, and on larger ones she 'burned' holes in his face and then colored his eyes red and drew blood-drips on his face with magic marker, she flung all the foodstuffs in the cupboards and refrigerator all over the place, and it looked like she took a baseball bat to the paneling, mirrors, counters, and cupboards. Her brother had allowed her to move in and stay with him and his wife, but we heard from Dad's attorney that less than a week later he had moved her to stay at a motel. She was 59 years old when she did all this, and she worked as a NURSE in a large hospital. (which used to give me the creeps, but as I came to know and understand more, I realized that she was only interested in the guys she latched onto for security. She probably mistreated her patients by being uncaring and neglectful.

3.) [your daughter(s)]...but if i over protect her, if she is never exposed to any danger, doesn't that make her more vulnerable...

Yes, but there's a middle ground between these two extremes. I'm a firm believer in preventing your kids from drowning by teaching them to be strong swimmers, not by keeping them away from the water forever. BUT you keep them in shallower, safe water, until they have enough strength and skill to evade predators in the deep. You sound like a really loving and dedicated Dad. There are Fantastic lifelong gifts Dads can give their daughters, that Mom's don't have nearly as much influence with. The gift of self respect and the ability to say NO --that just because a guy says "I love you", or pets them up and makes them feel thrillingly desirable, doesn't mean they owe the guy sex. A girl's first boyfriend, in the "PROTECTOR & CHAMPION" sense of the term, is her Father. The way a he treats his wife and other women in his life, how he interacts with Mom and others, gives his daughters a 'model' ( in their head, subconscious even)..to refer to for choosing their future husbands, and for how their their future husbands should treat them. How Father talks ABOUT women TO other guys matters too. What the daughters overhear. You haven't said whether you're married and living with their mom or not, but even if you're divorced or separated and their mother is difficult to interact with, if you make the effort to be polite and fair, your girls will remember later in life, and love you all the more for your sterling self-management in the face of tough times. (No "perfection" is possible, but respect, admiration, gratitude for good contributions to family life, and for having your girls, and sharing responsibility, forgiveness for mistakes, and ways of addressing disagreements that clear the air and come up with solutions both can live with, etc.) Basically, how you manage yourself around women. Later on, if they they have the misfortune to hook up with a guy who mistreats them, how YOU behaved could be their salvation: "hmmm...My Father would never have treated a woman this way,....I shouldn't be treated this way. They'll get help, make changes and improve things, or end it...instead of straggling along trying to make lemonade out of rotten fruit.

aye yi....a long reply, sorry if I sound preachy. But you won't hear more from me for some days.

Can we insert some humor here? - not to make light of your very real problem, but sometimes fantasizing some help for it and having a chuckle are a good thing. This drifted through my head, because of the fish and water metaphors: buy your father a hat, firmly attach a shark fin on the top, (painted styrofoam or rubber)..small enough to fit on the hat but large enough to be visible from at least 50 ft away. Light enough to stick right up and not flop to one side! Spread the word with a knowing smile, that he's not as harmless as he may seem.

Monty, Starry, and every one else who has had the misfortune to have experienced life as the target of a psychopath,

Yes...no matter what-all types of craziness and cruelty you've endured, life goes on. I'm going to refer to the bad stuff as "junk" or "baggage."
The problem of going forward and moving ON post-trauma, is that you have baggage you have to "manage" ... somehow, some way, for the rest of your life.


We don't experience pain from good memories, but we do from bad ones. The junk experienced is on board/in mind, forever. (Well, unless you have a stroke or get a brain disease that wipes out your experiential memory.) My point is, your memories are part of the fabric of your Being. Moving forward in life, living on with traumatic memories,is like carrying extra weight around with you that you can't shed. The depth or frequency of trauma, the number of years endured, are different for each person. Some have heavier or more difficult burdens than others. Compare it to carrying a child on your back in a backpack, at all times. I say a child instead of a stone or a bowling ball, because the "baggage" of bad experience is like a sleeping thing that always has the potential to become active...to burst into activity, to squirm, wiggle, struggle, cry out. Situations and events can toggle it awake,trigger remembrance. Everywhere we go, everything we do, how others behave around us and towards us can trigger remembrance. Sometimes you can see it coming or can predict situations and thereby avoid it, but you often get ambushed. For example, you're in an packed elevator with your very fussy toddler, a stranger annoyed beyond his patience blurts out "If that was MY kid I'd give him a smack!," --and suddenly you recall being smacked and shoved in a closet. Memories can trigger loose at the speed of light. Everybody's has some unhappy memories because Life just IS difficult at times for everyone. Survivors of psychopaths have huge baggage; verbal insults, disparagement of their characters and intellects, threats against their life, and feelings that their life was utterly worthless and of no value or consequence at all. Holding the door shut on all that junk is an effort, takes energy. More some days than other days.

Strategies for managing junk work well sometimes, not so good other times.
Some people "compartmentalize" the junk; "park it" to the side, box it and store it in a quiet recess of mind, to keep it inactive and prevent it from popping out to interfere with daily-weekly-monthly life. Some "channel it" artistically...into painting, drawing, music, writing, poetry. Some exert psychic "effort" to deliberately "hold back" recall...as if the memories are stored in a room so packed full of junk it threatens to burst the door open and spill out...you lean on that door, hold it shut when it bulges. Some use mental imagery: imagine a hot air balloon...put your junk into the basket suspended beneath it and turn it loose, to float off into the sky. (It doesn't produce permanent relief, but it's useful for temporary relief.)

I suppose there 'could' be victims of psychopathy who want to, and manage to, "forgive" the psychopath(s) in their lives. I'm not one of them.
I see no reason, emotional or intellectual, to forgive anyone who has willfully and deliberately acted to harm you.
I think some people 'forgive' because it helps them feel better about themselves, larger-spirited than their abuser. But it's not just a question of having "some bad memories." Years of psychological abuse causes actual brain damage. Mental impairments. It's often coupled with physical abuse that caused lifelong physical impairments, --and that's a hell of a lot to ask or expect anyone to "forgive." Victims don't go around telling people all the things that are wrong with them "from abuse", even if they have a pretty good assessment of them -- which most don't, because psychological/cognitive testing is expensive and not covered by a lot of insurance plans.

Main message here is: People don't "get over" abuse. They learn how to "manage" the baggage. People who tell abused people "just move forward, don't wallow in it, get over yourself, stop whining about the past" -- don't understand the problem.

Sinkler,

You are lucky to have a husband who perceived the hidden/disguised problem and helped you see past the veil. Your mom may never have realized what she was dealing with, or maybe did but felt powerless (and was) to change it. I think psychopaths are attracted to marry partners who have a blind spot, can't figure them out, can't quite detect their deceits, and are 'manipulatable'. Over time that partner 'adapts' to the psychopath's needs. If they don't go along with him their life will be even harder. Once you have kids you're stuck because it's so incredibly hard to break free, with the kids, and survive economically and mentally.

The fact that you feel sad about getting distanced/alienated from your siblings marks you as a human being with normal bonds of affection. THEY should feel sad about losing you! That they don't and instead allow your father's distortions and fictional criticisms to define you, instead of relying on their own real and personal experience OF you to "know" how you are, indicates that they're in mental bondage to him. After you move they may continue among themselves to 'interact' via criticism of you but it will become a stale enterprise after awhile; when it does, your father may entertain himself by pitting your siblings against each other. That may sound like a crappy thing to wish on your siblings, but unless they experience his false-blame and criticism first-hand, they probably won't be able to recognize that's what happened to you.

You're a brave lady.
The fact that your father targeted you instead of either of your siblings, could be because he perceived you as emotionally-different from them, more whole. Psychopaths don't like emotionally whole people whose consciences can interfere with the lies they're spreading. They consider them threats.

I have a sister, in the biological sense only. My grown kids get on my case for how I handle this, saying its not really 'honest' but I have found caution to work better than blunt honesty at the outset of friendships. I want people to have a chance to get to know me, experience me, without our interactions being fettered by commonly held (but erroneous) assumptions. When casual acquaintances ask if I have any siblings, I simply say 'No.' I consider thats not completely UN-true because my sister herself told me I was dead to her, and she certainly was poison for me to be around. If I say "yes, I have one sister", they assume some sort of positive/friendly sibling-relationship exists and dive into painful conversational territory: "Does she live nearby? No? Gee that's too bad, are you able to get together now and then? My sister and I go camping every year"...blah-blah-etc People who AREN'T knowledgeable about psychopaths (and Narcissists, and other mentally disordered people incapable of having honest,friendly, relationships)... ASSUME that any time ANY two people are estranged they are "probably BOTH at fault, there are two sides to every disagreement." < WRONG when dealing with psychopaths.

If a friendship develops with an acquaintance, then at some point I do explain that I grew up in a mal-functional family where our mentally unstable mother alienated my sister from me early on, causing my sister to develop a mentally-ill hatred of me that prevents any possibility of friendship, so we are estranged. If they want to know more, they can ask, and I'll answer.



Works for me

Thank you Kate for putting this all into perspective for me.

That has been the hardest thing for me to overcome. My Dad laid so much guilt/shame on me all the time that it was easy to believe his distorted truths and look to me or my husband as "the bad guys".

My husband is a very overt person. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold anything back. I have admired that about him because everything in my family was always behind the scenes and covert. My husband decided, about 2 years before I did, that he didn't want anything more to do with my Dad. At the time, I thought he was horrible for cutting my Dad out and I felt caught in the middle. I believe that my huband is one of the few people who could have withstood all the hate that was coming from my family and me, before my awareness.

Right now, I am trying to do some damage control with my boss and her parents. My Dad used to have lunch with my boss's parents every week. I started to get the feeling that my boss was beginning to disapprove of me and realized that Dad was now "in my job". I asked my Dad to stop contact with them because it was interfering in my job. First he denied that he said anything. Then he said "I don't give a shit" and called them right after I left. Later, he told me that they had called him.

So, I went to my bosses parents and asked them not to contact him anymore. I tried to make them realize what he does and how he uses people, gives negative impressions, etc. I'm not sure they entirely understand the gravity of what he does but, other than sending a card now and then, they haven't spoken to him or seen him for several months. I'm hoping my Dad won't contact them because he must wonder what I have told them.

Now I just have to speak with my boss.......It's so hard to put this stuff into words. People just don't know how to take it unless they, themselves, have been through it.

Hi Dianne,

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile. I have been reading everyone's comments, though, and they are very helpful.

I'm not totally sure that my brother will take my Dad in but, if that is what Dad wants, then it will happen. My brother is obviously under Dad's spell now. Any emails I send him are immediately read to Dad and then I get a hateful voice mail from my Dad so I know he is twisting my words as I have only sent positive emails to my brother.

The blow-up occurred last November over a period of about 2-3 weeks. I had called my sister to ask her a question and everything about my Dad just spilled out. I hadn't planned to tell her but it was the first time I felt that anyone actually listened to me and treated it with some credibility. My sister then told my Dad the whole conversation. My Dad then started to try and manipulate me to come and see him. Most likely, to trap me into discussion about what I had told my sister. At the time, I didn't realize that my sister had told my Dad everything but I could tell he was manipulating me so I refused to go and see him and kept putting him off. It culminated in him actually going to the hospital for bogus back pain. I suspected it was bogus and have since conferred with a nurse I know who worked at the hospital. Basically, she confirmed that the diagnosis was "complaint of back pain". Any potential diagnosis was ruled out and he was sent home with no pain meds - only Tylenol.

I guess he thought that going to the hospital would have me running to him as it had in the past. I realized, though, that it was just another of his manipulations. There was nothing wrong with him. So....I contacted my brother and told him I was unable to go and asked if he was available. He sounded fine with it but said he had to check on some things and would call me back in 20 minutes. When he called back he was really pissed off (apparently had talked to Dad in that 20 min). Screamed at me that I didn't want anything to do with my Dad (even though I had just taken him to dinner the week before, sent him audio books before that, and sent him $50 worth of supplies the week before that). He said I wouldn't go to see Dad but I'd sure run over there when it was time to claim my inheritance. He said he didn't want anything more to do with me or my husband. He also told me that he knew what I had said to my sister. He accused me of telling her that Dad was a mass murderer - which wasn't true.

At that point, I quit calling my Dad or taking his calls. He left me several hateful voice mails. Told me he had made my sister aware that I was a liar (she hasn't called me back or taken any of my calls since). Told me to "mark him off on the calendar as deceased" and called my husband a "no good sorry SOB". Odd, since my husband didn't have anything to do with all this as far as my Dad was concerned. Then he said I was "too scared to call him back".

In any case, it has been a slow process but I am beginning to give myself permission to let my family go. I don't know why it's so difficult but I have always had a strong sense of responsibility for taking care of my Dad. He doesn't seem to have the same difficulty in quickly transferring the responsbility over over to my brother, however.

I figure the final blow will be removing me from any inheritance which my mother set up a long time ago. That is the only weapon I can think of that my Dad has left with which to "get me back" for realizing what he is/does and trying to tell my siblings.

Kate,

Your comment about how you screen your family history from new acquaintances is dead on for me. Especially your insight as to how people view a troubled family relationship - that it takes 2. But it doesn't with a psychopath. People (even most mental health professionals) can not wrap their head around the idea that someone has NO empathy or that they can NOT be fixed. So there we are, trying to befriend people without them thinking WE are the problem. It's funny though. Because if he was an alcoholic or a physical/sexual abuser, they would immediately relate and see him as the 100% problem. My dad is neither. He's a socially high functioning psychopath. Charming. Engaged. Financially successful. Damn! For the most part, everybody LOVES him. Oh, except for his poor children.

So, I have 2 elderly parents and 3 siblings still doing the dance with my psychopathic father. I am the youngest by 6 years and am guessing that from the time I was little I never trusted him so he was unable to get me 'under his spell'. However, I have been actively involved with the family as is my son and it's insane dynamics.

How can I hide this? I need a story. I've thought of saying, no, i don't have any siblings, no, my parents are dead. But people still want to know the story. Where you grew up blah blah.

Hi daddysproblem welcome to our community.

I guess the only suggestion I can add is to brief and not say much. I have found that many times people ask questions not to really listen to the answer but as a way to begin with what they want to say. How many times do you hear people say "How are you", most don't mean it or listen to any answer.

Maybe just practice the art of being vague.

How engaged are you and your son with your father? Do you live in the same area? Do your siblings see anything wrong or do they continue under his spell?

Di

Dianne,

Sorry for the delayed response. For some reason I thought that I would get an email or something if someone responded (you know - like Facebook ).

I married, procreated and divorced by the time I was 21. Because family is EVERYTHING I lived with my parents raising my son together. So that has complicated the situation with my son. We are now (finally) on the same page. They did whatever they could to eliminate my parental 'power' so to speak. It was pretty rough. They'd always bail him out when he did wrong and never backed me up. It was horrible. I was so caught up in the madness. So now my son is my #1 fan. He finally see's it all. He is very much like me as far as good instincts with people.

Back to your question. We are all from the Chicago area. But now my parents are in Santa Fe, NM and my son & I are in SoCal. And when I tell people where my folks are they can't keep from telling me how lucky I am and hopefully you get to visit often. Because it's so beautiful there.. blah blah. I ask them if they will go for me.

The parents are very old now and mom has Alzheimers. Siblings all have some serious mental health issues and are either willingly or not still under his spell. I'll tell ya, my story is really notable. We are 4, sister age 66 (claims dad sexually abused her - but has returned after 18 year absence), brother age 64 (dad really did him the most damage - he's super bright and dad always put him down. has disappeared for spans of years about 4 times, currently missing for about 8-9 years - he has a son that he is utterly incapable of bonding with), brother 61 (dad's number one fan and near clone - but that doesn't stop dad from crapping on him and manipulating him) and me 55 - i'm perfect (te he)- just unable to trust anyone - I don't believe i was ever under daddy's spell. Never trusted both parents. I had been watching all of them - the observer. He always looks at me sideways. I'm the ONLY really combative one - always spoke my mind, that is logical and holds their ground. And I survived. Lead a pretty stable and reasonable life. He can NOT stand me, but does find me to be a formidable opponent. LOVES to spar with me. Loves it! especially if he can make me cry... SCORE!

Problem is - he never leaves anyone alone. Brother (61) and he talk daily.. sometimes 4-5 times a day. ick. The phone is his number one friend. I rarely answer his calls so instead of a message he calls over and over again. When you speak to him he recites his monologue of all his woes and all the news about other people. He tries to get information from you. He's really manipulative and loves to get a rise out of his kids. And he won't let you get off the phone. LOVES it when you need to get off.. LOVES controlling you. I really feel for the one woman on this thread who had the father who was able to drop by. but that was never his style.. we were REQUIRED to go THERE. When I still lived near them it was my mother who would do crap like drop by - if i didn't speak to her she would send packages - even to my office. She's no prize either. Truth? We all thought the problem was Mom - not Dad. Funny how things turn out.

you know, these people are just so damaging. I can't believe the amount of my life has been sucked out of me by this. Not to mention the damage to my health. Sorry I wrote so much. I think all of us are just so glad to have a place where people understand. No one I know get's it and they all try to give the advise about well, he's your father and he means well. How do you explain NO empathy. None - zip - zilch. But not a criminal..

Thankfully they are leaning more and more. Especially with the fMRI's.

I think I have some stuff for you and your resource section. I'll find it and send it on.

Thanks for starting this...