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#10866 - 03/15/11 06:00 PM General Discussion - Part TWO
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Part One is now closed as it is getting very full, please carry you, Part Two is now open.

Di

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#12528 - 01/13/12 12:48 PM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: Dianne E.]
LarryDarrel'sTaxi Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 7
New discussion (part 2) so I thought I would jump on. I'm new to the forum.
I just recently figured out that my mother is a psychopath. I just read "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson and everything fit into a nutshell. I would say my mother scores a 36 out of forty on the Hare checklist.
(Trivial note: I just watched "Rope" directed by Alfred Hitchcock last night, not having any idea that it dealt with a psychopathic crime. I was amazed that even back in the 50's, someone had figured so much of this out, even if they didn't put a name to it. Two killers in the story, the emapthetic one falls apart and the Psychopath revels in it.)

For years I thought Moms behaviour was just parental excentricity; everyone's Mom drives them crazy. When I was a kid I fealt I could trust her implicitly. I now realise that's because I was one of her weapons against my father. She needed me on her side. Now that I'm older, I realise she was very neglectful and much of what I thought was trust, was really me just being left to my own devices. Just as all people are different, I would say all psychopaths are different too. I certainly feel for the people who have really horrible violent pyschopaths in their lives. I didn't see as many posts for people who have charming, destructive ones, so that's part of why I'm writing. But mostly to get stuff off my chest and feel better of course.

I've always tried to hold myself accountable for my own life. I still do on many levels. Much of what I'm not happy with is my own fault and resulting from my own dumb decisions. But, after 45 years I feel now I can give myself a break. As much as it is frustrating, I find that knowing I have psychopathic parent, is liberating. I can forgive myself for a lot. It's helping me shed a lot of low self esteem. Even recognise where I had low self esteem and thought I was normal. If that makes sense?

My mother is not violent. She can be very sweet. There are a great many opportunities I've had in life that she has helped provide. However, my mother has also done as much damage as she possibly could when it has suited her. She is very adept at playing the middleman, manipulating family members and always claiming to act on anothers behalf. She provides when it suits her ego ("My son has a Masters"). She sabotages for the control and the kick. She's waiting there to say you'll always have a roof over your head after she's inflicted the damage herself. Oddly, she's not over-bearing. Unless she's had time to plan, she really doesn't want to have anything to do with you. Regular phone calls and normal conversation seem to leave her at a loss. While I can not point to any one thing she's done and say, that ruined my life, I would have to say that continually screwing things up for your kids over the years is cumalative.

My mother is also very good at asking for forgivness, wanting to have heart to hearts.. Basically to figure out what you have on her. She cries in an almost identical way each time, never says an ounce of truth, and while she's asking to be forgiven, never ever owns up to anything she's actually done wrong. (Unless she thinks you've already figured something out, then that becomes her big confession. Always something vague and large, specifics are blamed on others.) She's fishing to see what you know. When you do forgive her for anything, she never seems to redeem herself, learn, or have any emotional memory her past transgretions. Give her time, she'll stick her hand in the fire again. In Ronson's book, he talked about a psychopath released from hospital who killed someone as soon as he was released. They asked him why he did it. He said, he wanted to know what if fealt like. They then reminded him that he killed three people already. He responded "Yeah, but that was a long time ago."

My mother seems to have two emotional states, un-brideled anger and rehearsed sentimentality. She doesn't love me either. Not really. She is obsessed with a version of me that exists in her own head that has nothing to do with me in real life. I've never heard her talk about being in love. It's always.. "I thought they loved me!". There are no stories of boys (or anyone) she loved in her youth. There are no good men in the world except me and my brother.

Before I realized what my Mother was, I had already started to figure things out and create coping mechanisims. For years I literally fealt my mother had no empathy. I've compartmentalised my dealings with her. I haven't shared anything important from my personal life for years. I now don't share anything important at all. The fact that she lies pathologically, even about the most trivial things, has been evident for years. She lies almost every third sentence. Her favorite memoreys of my childhood are things she's made up.

Someone might look at what I've written and say that my mother isn't a psychopath, but just mean and manipulative.

But, my mother is also not very bright. (I'm no Einstein myself.) I joke that I'm the smartest one in my family (between my mother and my brother) because I'm the only one that doesn't think they're a genius. Much of what my mother has got away with over the years she has managed because I loved and trusted her. I don't anymore. She has confessed to some of her crazy destructive manipulations and antics because she has thought I've already figured them out. She also takes credit for things she didn't do, to try to make herself the center of things.

Maybe someday I can forgive her like I have before. Her latest antics went beyond the pale. I think forgivness is just as important, if not more important for your self than the other person. Resentment and anger poison the soul. I haven't trusted her for years. I now no longer love her.

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#12534 - 01/16/12 11:45 PM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: LarryDarrel'sTaxi]
LarryDarrel'sTaxi Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 7
To bring a questing up out of all of this. If you're dealing with someone who is still tied to your life. (I'm still part of my family, my brother, step sisters, step fathrer.. All whom I love.) Do you tell a psychopath how they've wronged you?
Condidering whether it's positive or negative, psychopaths get off on the conflict. Are you only playing into their hands or is it sometimes a case of, sometimes you just got to not take it. Plus, my Mom has backed off on things before.. Though she then finds revenge in some seemingly un-related way.

I don't feel it's a problem blocking off even more of my life from my mother. To protect myself. However, I also feel that if I described her misbehaviour to someone who wasn't aware that a psychopath gets off on the conflict.. They would very logically ask if I had explained what she did wrong to her. I know psychopaths count on people thinking that they can appeal to reason. But even if I had a crazy dog, I would still tell it bad dog if it pooped on the rug.

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#12535 - 01/17/12 03:58 AM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: LarryDarrel'sTaxi]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: LarryDarrel'sTaxi
To bring a questing up out of all of this. If you're dealing with someone who is still tied to your life. (I'm still part of my family, my brother, step sisters, step fathrer.. All whom I love.) Do you tell a psychopath how they've wronged you?
Condidering whether it's positive or negative, psychopaths get off on the conflict. Are you only playing into their hands or is it sometimes a case of, sometimes you just got to not take it. Plus, my Mom has backed off on things before.. Though she then finds revenge in some seemingly un-related way.


What I've found is that they may give the appearance of backing off, but it's only because it suits them for the time being. But they don't forget and, as you pointed out, they find a way of getting their revenge in the end. They always need to be right, so if someone makes them feel bad for whatever reason (and that could even be something as straight forward as that other person having their own, differing, opinion) they can't let them 'win'. It's all about the conflict and all about being right for them.

I remember my dad taking his revenge on me for slights that he thought his own mother had inflicted on him (half a century before!), and for things he believed my mum had done to him. I remember being utterly shocked at how raw his anger still was and inching away from him really slowly, thinking 'that's not normal', as he literally foamed at the mouth as he was talking about them.

Originally Posted By: LarryDarrel'sTaxi

I don't feel it's a problem blocking off even more of my life from my mother. To protect myself. However, I also feel that if I described her misbehaviour to someone who wasn't aware that a psychopath gets off on the conflict.. They would very logically ask if I had explained what she did wrong to her.



Absolutely true. But only if you're dealing with someone who is interested in a 'dialogue' with another person, an exchange of views and ultimately taking that other person's views into accounts.

For a psychopath 'the other' has no right to exist. The only purpose 'the other' has is as the object that facilitates the dialogue in their own head. There is no meaningful dialogue with 'the other' as they are not entitled to their status as a separate entity. So I don't think there's anything to be gained from engaging in a dialogue with them over how you feel, or how they've wronged you.

And ultimately, the only person it has to make sense to is you. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone else. You know what you need to do to protect yourself.

Originally Posted By: LarryDarrel'sTaxi
I know psychopaths count on people thinking that they can appeal to reason. But even if I had a crazy dog, I would still tell it bad dog if it pooped on the rug.


They're not crazy. They know exactly what they're doing. They know very well where the dividing line between right and wrong is, and they deliberately choose to step over it and go beyond it (and feel no guilt for it) because it suits their needs.

And they're not interested in 'learning' from their experiences to better their behaviour within society (either society at large, or the society of those people close to them). That's why sending these people to prison doesn't work, they're not interested in learning how to live 'in harmony' with other people, and feeling remorse for the harm they have caused others and changing their behaviour. Their needs always come first, above the needs for everyone and anyone else and so the way they choose to behave suits them perfectly well.

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#12537 - 01/17/12 06:56 PM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: starry]
LarryDarrel'sTaxi Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 7
Thanks Starry,
Sadly, I think you're right, but I had to ask. The most consistant thing with my Mom over the years is that there is no remorse, no learning, no growth.
Although it has possibly caused some severe damage for me, at least I know I've tried everything I could before I decided there was no hope.

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#12554 - 01/20/12 11:52 AM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: Dianne E.]
F Wright Offline
member

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 13
Hi folks.

This thread seems to be a good place for a new forum member to say Hello. smile

There is a great deal of helpful information here from what I've seen so far. Thank you all for this.

For my part I lived with and dealt with a family of psycopaths for 16 years. Add a manager at work for good measure. The wife, her mother, one of her brothers and a cousin and our daughter may all be diagnosed as such... the papers written by scientists and clinicians could have been written about these people, word for word.

It's been over a decade since I got away. Only recently did I realize what a psycopath is. For years I wondered about the bizarre behavior these people exhibited. How could people be so cold-blooded and indifferent to the consequenses of their own actions? Even toward their own family members. I never understood.

My sister has a degree in psychology. We were emailing awhile back and she suggested I do some research on antisocial behavior. As when we were kids, she refused to do my homework for me. laugh

What I've found is amazing. Most importantly, my research has answered many questions I had, questions that no one could address before. While it doesn't change what they are or what they've done, it's good to finally have some answers.

As an aside, I have been involved with online business forums sites since the late '90s and currently serve as admin on a business forum. I know the rules and required etiquette. I'm not here to troll nor sell anything. smile

But I do have some stories to share as well as experience with psycopaths and how I managed to escape and heal.
_________________________
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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#12585 - 01/24/12 05:42 PM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: Dianne E.]
blueheron Offline
member

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Hello, I'm still here, but haven't been quite as talkative. That's because I found an online group for daughters of narcissistic mothers, and am dealing with some of that as well. It's just as nice a group as this one, and I feel blessed.

I figured as long as so much mud has been stirred up in my life recently, might as well jump in and make use of the opportunity. crazy

Knowledge is power!

Hugs from blue heron

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#12751 - 03/03/12 05:58 PM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: Dianne E.]
Mug42Long Offline
member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 16
Hi, I am 57 and just realised, last XMas that my mother is a psychopath! I now feel betrayed and dumb for not realising sooner. I always felt I was waging an unseen battle, every time I saw my mother. My daughter in law is a psychologist and suggested it. After a particularly awful visit (they always are)crazy, I talked to her about my mother and it sent up red flags.
What is normal behaviour to me, is abnormal to others. My family are so used to her, they see it as normal. Now that it has all been pointed out, we get it.

I have researched, everything makes sense now. I have always felt my mother was evil but couldnít pin it down. My gut feeling differed to how she presented herself to others. I know now, I must listen to my gut. I have always believed I was the horrible person that she has implied that I was. My family are wary of her and know she weird and not very nice. I sent my mother a letter, before I learned fully about the condition, of course she has cut me off. This suits me well, I have decided it would be best for me to sever contact. My children keep in contact, but are torn feeling loyalty to me. I have informed them of what she is, and they agree.

Firstly, we must all realise psychopaths donít think like us. So we should stop trying to analyse them, to excuse their behaviour Ė MISTAKE 1. Blaming poor upbringing, to justify why they are that way wonít help.
They are that way, we canít change that. We must change. We must control contact, or no contact. We must not permit them to hurt us. It is all a game to them.
When I meet someone my mother knows, I get the warning stare. The stare says - what have you told them about me, it better be good. The stare is very animal, cold, evil.
My mother knows I am loyal, thatís how she has gotten away with this for so long. She knows I wonít talk about her behaviour and keep quiet Ė MISTAKE 2. I now talk about it and what she has done, even to her friends. She likes to have the appearance of normality.
By keeping quiet, I have enabled her to continue to abuse me. You start to wonder if you are imagining it, are you the one thatís crazy?

I have now reviewed my past and the behaviours. I now see everything in a different light, and present behaviours are confirming my diagnosis.
I now realise why my mother has no interest in my new home, what I do, etc. Itís all about her and what she wants.
I used to see families and wonder what it was like to have a normal mother. I thought one day that might happen, DELUSION! Silly, naive, me, LOL! Fodder for the psychopath.

As a child I was beaten by a thong (flip-flop) and because I struggled, she got angrier and beat me more, even with her hands, like a demented woman. I then saw the madness. Afterwards, she was nice, I thought she was sorry. I now believe it was so I wouldnít tell my father. Either she did this when my father was at work, or he was weak and did not stop it. Heís dead now, so I canít ask him. I now have negative feelings towards him and feel betrayed.

When I was older, I remember fighting back, to stop her from hitting me. I think it may have scared her. Not that I would hurt her, but someone might hear. She then stopped the beatings. It was more about how I embarrassed her, because I did something wrong. She later made comments that I did not beat my children with a thong (flip-flop) and they were bad.
My children are beautiful, caring adults now, I am proud of them. My mother even told my son not to play with his little car, he was about 10, too old to be doing that! My mother used to have dangerous, brass, ornaments in her house. When I asked her could she put them away when we visited, she said they should not touch them. Try telling a 2 year old that!

I was an only child and had no escape, I left home at 19. When I visited her, it was like prison, she tried to control everything I did. My family wonít visit now, because itís so bleak. I was the only one who bothered. She picks on my daughter, jealousy, because we are so close. She mocks our cuddles. I only got a hasty, clumsy cuddle, always in front of an audience, when I left, at the station from my mother. MISTAKE 3, shows of affection is to give the appearance of normality to others, donít fall for it. She has always been hateful towards me, but speaks of us in glowing terms, to others to, boost her image.

I always get this from her - you never .... so it's all your fault for not ..... I have noticed that everything is because someone else did/never did something and she is the victim of that. She never takes responsibility for her actions, blames others, gets angry when you point it out and changes the subject. She changes the subject when she doesnít like what you say, if you are catching her out. Also I remember how something was so important and she made a fuss. When I turned the problem back to her, getting her to own it, she just forgot it. She dropped it, as if, that didnít work, I must try something else. It had been so important a second earlier. sick

They try a scatter gun approach to see what gets the reaction. I would never have believed that a mother could be so conniving to their child. Thatís how she got away with it. My gut told me she was sticking the knife in, every chance. I chose to believe what I saw and thought she cared for me as I do my children Ė MISTAKE 4.
Donít worry about hurting them by cutting them off, they have no feelings to hurt. Donít feel guilty, they donít. Just remember Ė Despite you and in spite of you, I am successful. Can you say that?
Donít make them successful in hurting you/your family. CUT THE BA**ARD OFF! mad Look after yourself and your family first. Start the healing journer with me.


Edited by Mug42Long (03/03/12 06:06 PM)
Edit Reason: needed a smiley

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#12752 - 03/03/12 06:22 PM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: LarryDarrel'sTaxi]
Mug42Long Offline
member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 16
You are now informed and will have mixed feelings. Being informed is the tool that will free you. You will get opposition because you're being immunised from the hurt, because you are aware an on phyco/manipulation alert.
You will feel guilt that maybe you are wrong. They appear plausible to whoever they choose, you haven't realised this before. They have been playing you. This makes you look crazy, not them.

Now you have the power of knowing, use it to fee yourself.
Whatever you try, it will meet with opposition or they will cut you off.

They may be doing you a favour by cutting you off and you don't realise it, seize the opportunity.
It will make them look bad this time.
Them looking bad is not what they want others to see.

I have been damaged, my self esteem is 0.
I am seeing myself in a different light. I am not stupid, horrible or a [censored] of a thing, as I was portrayed and I believed.

I am examining history and now looking at my mothers behaviour and the results in a different light.
I am empowered, have given up drinking and excelling in studies.
I am becoming free of the mire she created, I am 57.
I feel contempt and betrayed.

When I don't contact my mother, I am happy. Phone calls used to be about her spewing her guts out about her stuff. No interest in me or my kids, she asked but before you could open your mouth, she took over the conversation.
No more!

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#12754 - 03/04/12 07:31 AM Re: General Discussion - Part TWO [Re: starry]
Mug42Long Offline
member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 16
It's funny how they aren't interested in learning anything...

My Psychopath mother has mats all around her house, on the step, three in the dining room, etc.
She is elderly and the lady who assesses their homes, to help them cope living at home told her to get rid of them.

My mother isn't having someone tell her what to have in her house!
A few weeks later she fell on one and was badly hurt. Months later, I visited and tripped on one and nearly went through the dining room window.

I wondered why a mother would not remove the dangerous mats after the person they are suppposed to love nearly had a bad accident.
If my daughter had tripped and nearly went through a window, that mat would be in that bin so fast!

That was before I realised she was a Psychopath. It makes sense now. wink

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