>>Even after reading the few books out there on P's, this site is still the best place by far to come for help. I wish there were support groups in person for us - but I don't know of any.<<

Hi P-proof,
I like your name and the double meaning in it. I too, feel this forum has been the best source of P. info for me. Besides the postings, I also learn of new books to read and other websites to check out. I go to a counselor who has been very supportive, helpful and understanding. Which I feel is also a part of my long healing process. I learn so much here though, and I take what I learn to my counseling sessions. I found this forum just in time. My insurance is changing so I wont have as much coverage, so I have to cut back on my appointments, but I know I can come here in between appts to stay focused. I also wish there were support groups in person. I know there are none where I live. At this point, I am not sure I would go, though. I still have a fear of others in my community ridiculing what I believe about this person I call a P. My picture is in lots of my advertising with my job, so I feel a need to be pretty anonymous right now, and that is what makes this forum so great. Welcome to the forum, P-proof. betterway

Hi Betterway...Thanks for reading.
After I thought about it - I agree - the anonymity is crucial. Not only because the average person looks at you like you have two heads when you use the word psychopath, but to come out in public (even a supposedly anonymous group) risks incurring danger to yourself from the P. I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person within miles who has encountered one of these - but I don't think so - most people just don't find this site or are just content to accept that the person in their life is just a jerk. P's are another species altogether. Even the alcoholics I've known - are suffering from alcoholism - they WERE NOT ever just plain EVIL. I had just found this site when I first went to my counselor - and I took in a stack of information from this site for her to read - she didn't. She was very empathetic towards me, however - and focused more on just getting on with life - which ultimately you have to do - but having had this experience with a P is so different - I think it's important to fully learn about what happened and how they operate for your own sanity to be able to move on. If my counselor wasn't familiar with this site - she should have been, I think, to be able to help more people in the future. My girlfriend gave me a book to read right after his disappearance (before I found out what he was ) called "Forgiving the Unforgiveable". What struck me in that book (which was mostly about having been cheated on and left) was that your choices are taken away from you, power is taken away from you - power over your own life and to be able to make informed decisions about it. (Enough happens in life over which we don't have any control - too bad there are people who glibly play with us like the P) That applied to a P - because they are just one string of lies, and what you believe is not real - and you're living your life as though what you believe about them and from them is real. And it's not.
Well, I hope you continue to heal and get better, even though your counselor visits may be fewer. I know this site has helped me more than anything! Take care of yourself!

(the story continues...) I left off where I'd met an alcoholic and soon recognized that and got out. The next one I met (and this is interesting - because I ended up calling him a P (before I really knew what that meant in all its grisly entirety). Before I go on with the P story I'll relate this man who happened before the P came back. I was sitting at work, minding my own business, when this man called. He was from the area, I knew who he was, but didn't really "know" him, and he had bee hives at my uncle's place. I knew he was married and for a long time.
Other than that - nothing. He called up out of the blue one day - and asked if I had a boyfriend - because he knew a couple guys who wanted to meet a nice woman and he thought of me. (He'd met me at some dinners I had gone to with my uncle). I thought that was really odd, but said I was willing to meet a nice man. He asked if I could meet him for lunch and he'd tell me about them. Well, I did but got an uncomfortable feeling about the whole thing. We went to a local park, and he told me that there might be someone else who was interested in dating me. I kind of laughed cynically - and he seemed surprised. Then he asked "Do you know who?". I said "Well, I'm not still wet behind the ears - of course - you, I suppose". Then he unfolded the story of how he and his wife were heading for divorce, he hadn't been happy for a long time, and he had to make a move before he got any older. I said "Sure, get a divorce, and call me". [As I write this - I'm struck by the fact that I really think he was (is) a P too. Had never thought of it that way - but I know I ended up being flattered that he wanted to date me - because the times I had met him he seemed so charming and nice and kind and interesting!] Anyway, for a year he pursued me, stopped by, and I continued to tell him "Let me know when you get the divorce". I was proud of myself. But then my one remaining single girlfriend was getting married, and feeling lonely, left out and where is my life going - I started thinking "Well, he must really be interested to keep up a friendship for a year or more". And a couple times he was telling me that his wife was moving out, that they hadn't slept together in years, and that it couldn't go on, and he was going to tell her about me. At that time there was nothing to tell - except perhaps he was interested in me, if he got divorced. So....I ended up breaking down and took a chance. He was going right home to tell her, and what kind of wedding would I want, and would I like to live in that house and it will certainly be different for me to live with someone (since I've lived alone a long time) - making plans!! Yes, I faltered, but only briefly. The next thing I knew she had leukemia and was going to die and he couldn't leave her now, and his grown kids would think he was horrible and he was so torn and unhappy, but at least we could have each other, since I had no one anyway, he was better than nothing, according to him! WRONG!
It was funny he was so charming beforehand, but once he thought he had me where he wanted me - he wasn't. I was helping him one day on my day off, haul in some firewood and stuff from his farm - and I know my strength is negligible, but I tried. And then I ran home to pack some lunch for him - hot soup, cocoa, sandwich, etc. and schlep it back to the farm. (Trying to be nice and pleasing). Well, the next day he asked if I wanted to ride with him on an errand, and we'd go out to lunch at a place he knew had good food. So - on the way there - he had to stop by the bank and he was telling me all about his money and stuff, his different bank accounts, etc. We ate lunch, the bill came and I thought well, the least I could do is leave the tip, I started to say that, when he looked at the $20 bill and said "Well, do you have $10 - we'll split it". That kind of split my head wide open - I don't think I'd ever felt so small. Anyway, a few things like that happened and I just said No More. After that he became abusive in my own home (verbally and emotionally) - and then he started "stalking" me - I'd come home and he'd drive in behind me, and wonder why I wouldn't let him in the house. He worked a shift which let out at 11 pm, and he'd drive in and knock on my door. It got to the point where I couldn't just get in bed to read (like I love to do) for fear he'd be driving in and see the lights. A couple times, when I thought I was rid of him, I caught him outside my bedroom window as I was reading. The first time - I heard the windchime (and it wasn't windy) - and looked out but saw nothing. The next night - again the windchime - I jumped up and ran to do the door - and there he was, skalking beneath the cedar tree - I asked what the hell he was doing - he said he didn't want to scare me by knocking on the door!!! When I asked him if it was him the night before - he said No. He also had made a key to my apartment for himself (he had offered [before he got too weird] to feed my cat while I went on vacation - and had it made unknown to me! I discovered that by accident. So...this was the guy before the P I originally started posting about here, and I added him because quite frankly, as I said, now that I started writing about him - he was definitely P material. And oh yes, I had started calling him "the psycho" - not knowing what that meant - until this P came along - the one I'll continue with now - the one I'd met 18 yrs. before, who last called eight yrs. ago - and the story picks up in early 2002. I'll get on with it in the next post. I don't mean to keep anyone in suspense - but maybe the extra experiences I threw in will set off red flags for anyone who reads them. After that guy, I really gave up - got back to being happy again, doing my things, staying away from men, living without turmoil, meeting some nice people in the historical field (my passion-hobby), loving my family, friends and cat, trying some new things (ceramics), reading, hiking. Then I turned the half-century mark, and that wasn't so bad in itself - it was a good year in many ways. But there were some issues that started to crop up (symptoms of menopause, the 911 horror, friends/support group retiring at work and left alone with the new wave of kids, (at a job I never liked anyway, but some of the people who would leave made it worthwhile), and wondering what I'd do with the rest of my life, at work and beyond - i was starting to take stock again of where I was - not unhappily but....thinking nonetheless.... and I will continue....

>>She was very empathetic towards me, however - and focused more on just getting on with life - which ultimately you have to do - but having had this experience with a P is so different - I think it's important to fully learn about what happened and how they operate for your own sanity to be able to move on. If my counselor wasn't familiar with this site - she should have been, I think, to be able to help more people in the future.<<

My counselor did the same thing, just wanted me to let go. We had a talk at my appointment about everything I am learning and how it is helping me. I told him if he has any other patients he is dealing with that may be involved with a P. or NPD that he should tell them about the books I have read. He asked me for the name of the books. Isn't that great! I think he sees how this forum and the books are helping me. I didn't talk to the P. today and I haven't even went into PTSD, and I haven't hardly thought about him and what he is doing (which I am sure is just more games). It feels so good to have some days in my life where my insides are not so stirred up. I got a long way to go though. I am prone to slips, but the time between them are getting further apart. betterway

Hi Betterway, P-Proof and everyone,

Welcome to the forum.

I want to comment too about the importance of anonymity.

When I first came here to this forum it was after a therapist had told me that the man I had left was a dangerous psychopath/sociopath. She told me I needed to listen and take her seriously. It was shortly after that I found this forum and read here for 6 months before I posted. I was scared he'd find me here. I was scared someone would recognize my posts. I was frightened and paranoid and looking over my shoulder constantly. I struggled to continue to parent effectively and work too. It was a huge effort.

I am not frightened anymore. I refuse to live in fear. I am cautious but no longer worry all the time.

Another reason for anonymity important to me is that I did not share this experience with many others in my life. For a long time I would not talk about it at all except to his ex wife and my therapist. I was ashamed, frightened, and I knew that most people would not have a clue what a psychopath was. My own family was furious with me for being so foolish as to be taken in by this man. They wanted me to leave it all behind and move on. They did not understand what had been done to me. Interestingly enough, the same things had been done to them by my psychopathic father for many years. We all experienced terrrible fear, horror, and PTSD. My elderly mother is still effected. I think that my experience was almost too much for them to bear. They loved me and meant well, but I needed help and support from other sources. Much of that came from those here on this board.

I am still very careful about talking about my experiences. To me, this is very private stuff. I do not want some friends and family, work associates, neighbors and others to know about these deeply personal and painful issues. This forum is a safe place to be me, anonymously, except when I chose to be more disclosive with a select few. I am so grateful that I can say the truth here, and feel understood.

I am.....Neverthesame

>>>>My counselor did the same thing, just wanted me to let go. We had a talk at my appointment about everything I am learning and how it is helping me. I told him if he has any other patients he is dealing with that may be involved with a P. or NPD that he should tell them about the books I have read. He asked me for the name of the books. Isn't that great<<<<<

It seems to me as if a number of these therapists are treating the obsession, as just that, an obsession. Rather than the PTSD, which was caused by the trauma of psychological and emotional abuse. I find it sad that the therapists are so ignorant of PTSD and abuse. If the first they hear of it is through a book their patient gives them, that's pretty scary.

There are trauma therapists who are totally familiar with PTSD And abuse. Heck, even womens center peer support are familiar with the dynamics.

As I have decussed before, it may take a grassroots movement from the victims or targets of abusers, just as the Vietnam vets started their own group sessions for PTSD, before therapists start to integrate this into their education.

Betrayed.

>>>>I don't mean to keep anyone in suspense - but maybe the extra experiences I threw in will set off red flags for anyone who reads them.<<<

Hi P-Proof, I really appreciate it that you show all the experiences with the P's. I wish more would talk about specific incidences. It really helps to confirm and validate my own experiences.

>>>We ate lunch, the bill came and I thought well, the least I could do is leave the tip, I started to say that, when he looked at the $20 bill and said "Well, do you have $10 - we'll split it". That kind of split my head wide open - I don't think I'd ever felt so small<<<<

What a jerk! The P pulled this one on me, and in talking with other friends who have been in abusive relationships, they have had the same number pulled on them. It was similar to yours but with a twist. We went out to lunch to discuss the moving into the new store. I had offered to pay before we went as I knew he was short on cash. When I went to pay the bill at the table, I pulled out a $20. The bill came to $8 something. He said to me, if you give me the change, I'll pay you back $20 tomorrow. HE WAS OFFERING TO PAY FOR THE LUNCH!!! WOW!!!He makes himself out to be hero paying for the lunch. I never got the $20 back. I don't even remember why I didn't ask for it. I wasn't embarrassed to ask for it, I just forgot about it. I ended up paying for the lunch, plus he stole $11 something off me. JERKS!!!

>>>>He also had made a key to my apartment for himself (he had offered [before he got too weird] to feed my cat while I went on vacation - and had it made unknown to me! I discovered that by accident.<<<

These guys seem to all have the same M.O. The keys!!! If you have read my posts, you will know the number I had done on me with the keys.I never let mine out of my sight now, I never put them down. And its amazing how they manage with a thousand excuses how to get into our homes when we aren't there. When we started looking around for a store to move into, he started complaining about how he had no washing facilities in his bus. He told me he would stand in the doorway of the bus on the stairs and pour a cup of water over his head for a shower. Over and over, he told me this story. At no time did I question it, never. When you are in a trance state, you don't question. Your critical thinking is gone. It horrifies me of the things I didn't question. Anyways, once we move into the new store, he continued with the story of the shower in the stairwell of the bus. I offered him once, then twice, to let him use my shower at home. He declined. He told me the story one more time. I said, "I am not going to offer again. I am not going to beg you. You are embarrassing me". ( They love to have you beg ). He showed up 2 days later at my home to have a shower. I was thrilled. Its like having a tug of war with someone, and you manage to pull them over the line and win. The relief you feel from the constant tugging, when you stop. That dynamic went on many times with him. And its set up and manipulated to appear as if you suggested it, all on your own. After that it became a regular occurence. of him coming to our house. Dropping in at all hours, for his shower. Got me to leave my door unlocked, so he could get in, when I wasn't there. I would even tell my kid, don't have a shower tonight, he's coming over for his. Thank god she never listened to me, just went ahead and had it anyway. My granddaughters needs and mine, became less important than the P's. Once he moved himself in with the showers, then he worked on using my washer and dryer. He had fixed my gate, my chimney, my car, etc. always offering to do things for me. They like to you to become dependent on them, plus have a feeling of obligation towards them.

One morning, he showed up for his shower. He walked in and his one pant leg was saturated in blood from the thigh to the knee. He told me he had had to break up a dog fight between his dog and a friends dog, and that he had got bit. He did have a tiny wound on his hand, but there was no way it could have caused all that blood. And his dog looked fine. It was around this same time that he quizzed me on whether I read our local paper , (published 3 times a week). He knew I read the paper. He'd seen me reading the numerous times. At the time, I just thought, what an odd question. When I first reported the stalking by him to the police in April, the officers asked me if this was in regards to the complaint against him in January. I had no idea what the officer was talking about. I said what kind of complaint. They refused to tell me. The incident with the blood had happened in January, asking about me reading the paper had happened in January. What the hell had happened that night in January????

Betrayed.

>>It seems to me as if a number of these therapists are treating the obsession, as just that, an obsession. Rather than the PTSD, which was caused by the trauma of psychological and emotional abuse. I find it sad that the therapists are so ignorant of PTSD and abuse. If the first they hear of it is through a book their patient gives them, that's pretty scary.<<

Whats amazing is that my therapists has dealt w/PTSD, but he seemed to be only treating the obsession. Maybe he has dealt with other kinds of PTSD like victims of war or violent physical injury. But I would think that PTSD is PTSD. He has told me I have PTSD. I felt like I had to make him understand how traumatic this emotional and psychological experience has been for me. I gave him the "Bully Insight" book to read. Last week I discussed with him what I have been reading in the "Stalking the Soul" book. It was all the scenarios in that book that hit home for me. We can only hope that therapists will remember what we have told them has helped, and that they pass it on to future victims of this type of abuse.

Don't get me wrong, my therapists has been alot of help. He has been very supportive. I think I would have been hospitalized if it hadn't been for him. He helped me to understand the evil I was dealing with for so long. However, the real true understanding came when I found this forum and started reading the books that were suggested.

betterway

Dear Betterway...
Re: to therapists' insistence on just getting on....I have to wonder how few therapists really know about P's and the aftermath for us. I've had my share of endings with "normal" jerks - and though I hurt and had the grieving to go through - none were ever like this. You don't just forget it like it was no big deal - it was/is - they are criminals, and we've been touched by evil. I was told again today - just forget about it by a family member - and quickly explained that what helps me most and comforts me most at this stage - is to learn and learn and learn and now, share. Knowledge is power - the power to keep myself strong, my self esteem higher, and the power to get some enjoyment out of life - knowing that we met the "devil" and rose above, and it wasn't our fault. With the overriding need to keep reading, and learning - I was reminded of the time I went into a pet shop, and (I apologize to all the arachnids in the world - they are just trying to live their lives as we are - I love animals - there are no psychopaths, as far as I'm concerned, with any other species except humans) - but...I have a fear and replusion to spiders - don't know why? - but I was in this pet shop - and there was a huge tarantula in a cage at eye level in one part of the store - and I found myself not being able to take my eyes off of it - even though I didn't want to see it. Maybe that's analogous to needing to learn and learn about the P disease - we dare not take our eyes off them, or their kind. I had kept looking at the tarantula to try and figure out what freaked me out so much about this entity so much smaller than me. Does this make any sense? The big difference is that the tarantula certainly felt no ill will towards me - unlike the P. Don't mean to compare the two creatures - it insults the tarantula!!
Anyway, may your times in between keep getting longer and further apart - to where the P is a speck on the horizon, fading fast! Take care.

Dear Neverthesame...I'm a little concerned that someone might recognize my posts too - like the P in another state - since it wouldn't surprise me if he knew about this, but who knows? I just found out through a contact in his area - that he may be in my area again - and that frightens me. Wondering what he'd be doing here....all I keep thinking is for revenge - since I did, at one point, contact the person he was last living with to try and warn her, but I tried to be anonymous about it. I know I shouldn't have bothered - but something compels you to do it. Maybe that's still part of the hold they have on you - even though you know it's sick.