My OT has been trying to get me to reconnect with myself, both physically and emotionally.

Now, let me say straight away that my place of survival and safety is all about disconnection from myself. I know what that place is all about, and although I may not like it, it's a neutral place and a place of safety.

Now, I get what my OT was trying to do and why. The question I'm left with is that I now find the world a very confusing place. I feel disappointed, hurt and let down by people the whole time. It's exhausting. I don't really like what I see very much.

I'm in the process of being made redundant from a job that I've done for many years, which I've loved, in which I thought I was valued and respected. But it seems that people are just out for themselves, and nobody has shown any concern for how I am, or how I am coping (very badly, as it is).

Is this sort of disillusion normal?

Hi Starry, what you are describing sounds like a very natural think to do when you have had so much suffering in your life.

When things go nutty around me, like someone getting ticked off for who knows what reason, I just go into my neutral position, no response, just keep going and nod or whatever but don't get sucked in. I think to learn to go into a neutral place is the safest place, not reverting to what you had to do in order to survive as a child.

In a work environment it is best to not get close to people in the sense that they know your business because it can be harmful if they spread gossip or jump to conclusions. So if they see you behave a certain way they don't jump to some conclusion that it has anything to do with what you might have told them in private. For example we can all be down at times but if people know you have issues with that you might just be innocently thinking or doing something else and they leap to the conclusion that something is wrong with you.

What used to bother me with this one person I knew if I told her how I was feeling about something painful was that the next time I saw her she would bring immediately bring up the subject and I felt like I was being interrogated about it, I had either moved on or didn't want to relive it. As we wander through life having just a couple close friends is better than a mob who really don't care when it comes down to it.

There is a wide gap between disconnecting and being neutral. I don't think you are delusional and am not sure why you would think that about yourself. You are a very kind, caring person who needs to decide who to let into your life and how to protect your boundaries.

I had my head bashed to the cement in a work environment and was left with the same feelings, but in the end that is just how others choose to see things. We don't have to accept their views but be mindful of our own. In that neutral space. I wish them no ill, I am just neutral.

Di

Someone explained to me once that there are two concentric circles. One is the emotional mind and one is the rational mind. Where they join in the middle is called the wise mind. It is really hard to get to that place, the wise mind where you have the emotions and yet can still think rationally about things. I think we all tend to occupy one of the two extremes, emotional or rational, depending on the circumstances. Another good phrase I learned is, "Stop! Step back!" In other words, stop, evaluate the situation, let your emotions cool off a bit, and then take action.

I think everybody is disillusioned with work at some point. You expect your employer to have clear guidelines for your job and if you do it well, you expect to be appreciated for your contributions. But that isn't always the case. Sometimes, no matter what you do, for financial reasons, as in the company is struggling to stay afloat, or personality issues, they simply don't like you or have their own political agenda in the company and you are standing in the way of that, you may either be bullied out of your position or directly fired. I have experienced the bullying, where, no matter what you do, no matter how hard you work, you are constantly criticized or people try to maneuver around you. That is way worse than being fired outright, because you continue to put your mental energy into doing things right and overcoming the problems. But it ends up a bit like being with a psychopath, no matter what you do, you are always seen as the problem. I think the most important thing is to know when to leave. And also, to realize that if they don't need or want you, it is THEIR loss. You have to respect yourself. There is another place where your talents can and will be valued and appreciated.

Hi, funny you should mention our two sides, I just received Cheri's latest book (What You Practice is What You Have) and here is what it says to find our center and be able to "hear" that inner voice:

In There is Nothing Wrong With You, (her other book) the primary practice tool is a recording of “reassurances”.

Reassurances are true statements made by one’s mentor, or center (you). The statements are meant to solidify the relationship between the human being (you) and the wise, compassionate awareness (the “centered you”) that is available to encourage and support us through life when we turn our attention to it.

In this book, the primary practice tool for learning to direct attention is another recording in which the mentor process expands. This recording may include your reassurances, but that is not the primary purpose. Here is how to take the next step:

In your own voice,
make a recording that reminds you
of everything you need to remember
so that you can make
the choices you know
you need to make,
from center,
to have the life you know
is possible for you.

You can get a small recorder for under $20 at Radio Shack or wherever. Wal-Mart has a nifty one for around 20 online. If you want a tiny hand held one they are more but this one looks fine.

Wal-Mart recorder

I noticed at Radio Shack they have one of those recording machines that records your calls when you pick up the phone, they were $20 years ago but now only $8, it in store only but if you do a search for: Phone Cassette Recorder - if anyone has someone calling them and getting crazy, ask me how to use it because I used one years ago and it was quite effective because I couldn't write as fast as they were going and stay focused so a police officer friend told me what to do.

Di

Wow, thank you for your replies. A lot to think about in them...




I guess what I was meaning was dissociating. I call that my neutral place, although it's not really a neutral place, it's a place of disappearance and absence.





This seems more like being assertive. I would like this to be my default neutral place.





I'm learning this. There have been a couple of occasions in the past years where I've thought about sharing with a couple of people, but something stopped me. And now I'm glad I didn't say anything, really very glad. I feel a lot safer not having shared.





Thank you. I really struggle with this. Recently I've started saying 'no' to people at work (in a non-confrontational way) and it's caused all sorts of temper tantrums. Truth is, I've given pretty much everything to this job for many years. I've gone way beyond the terms of my job description. Not to say I've not given that willingly, I have, I really have. But I just pulled back a bit over the past few months, and people have really rebelled against that. I think they came to expect an arm and a leg from me. I guess I feel disillusioned because I received no thanks at all for giving my arm and a leg, and even got hassle from some people for pulling back slightly. Lesson learned.

I like this. I shall try and keep this in mind.





We're all being made redundant...the place where I work is being closed. Sorry, I should have made that clearer.

I feel like I've been trying to cope with everyone else's emotional journey, as well as trying to deal with my own. It's been exhausting.

I'm very tuned in to 'the vibe'. It's my survival mechanism, to immediately get where everyone is at (and adjust my behaviour accordingly). I'm always on alert, and the emotional radar is always cranked up to the max. It's very finely tuned. My survival depends on it. If I get it wrong I might end up in a really dangerous situation. That's what I learnt from being with my dad.





Yes, I have been in similar situations. Also sexually harassed at work quite badly...very triggering.





The strange thing is I'm sure that the person who has made all the cuts, resulting in our department being closed, is a psychopath.





Yes, I agree. And now I feel it's time to leave. I've felt it for the past couple of weeks, and that's one of the things that's made me so ill.

Today is my last day. I will walk round the building one last time, hand back my keys and walk away. I know I'm not going to cry (already done that, a lot). And I will know that that is one chapter of my life finished.





My husband has been suggesting I use this opportunity to focus on myself: some rest and then work on my own business (I've also been self employed for many years, but it's taken a back burner to my main job).

I would also like to try and concentrate on getting fit, losing a little weight and learning to look after the house. I don't mean that in a sexist, housewife, way. Just taking some pride in our house and keeping on top of the housework.

How does all of that sound?

Di, I'll reply to your other post a bit later. Pretty tired now, and need to think about getting up to go to work.

Starry,
I hope you are enjoying your newfound freedom from your old workplace. It sounds like, because you were tuned into the vibes of others, that you were bearing not only the emotional toll on yourself, but also the emotions of others. As I worked with a naturopathic healer who released trapped emotions, he told me that we can trap the emotions of others, not only our own. For example, he told me that I had trapped my mother's emotion of grief at age 5. That was without me ever having said anything to him about the fact my mother had lost a loved one when I was young! It made sense that I had witnessed her grieving and probably a part of that was trapped somewhere in me, but it was also rather surprising. It also makes sense now to me why Dianne said that she shields herself from negativity, not allowing it in her home or even on a dog walk. The emotions of others are pretty powerful things and I guess that we have to be careful and guard ourselves against how much we let in.

I do think the energy levels of others affect us, like we begin to vibrate on whatever level they are vibrating on. That is probably how I got involved with a psychopath, I was at a low place, she sensed it, and took advantage of it. It does worry me now, too, because I know I am not vibrating at a good place. Like you, I am starting over, spending time rethinking career, and working on weight issues. Yet, with all of the extra time from not working, I am still so stuck in and traumatized with reliving the psychopathic experience, trying to figure it out, that I have more time to ruminate about it which isn't a good thing. Its like I am in this state of inertia, wanting to make positive changes for myself now that I have the time, yet being in such a negative place mentally. Fortunately, my friends have put up with me, but I know it takes an emotional toll on them as well and they just want me to be the happy person I once was. She just seems lost. I'm going back to counseling in a week, so perhaps that will help. All I want to ask the counselor is how I can remove these thoughts. Life would be so much easier if we could simply cut that chunk of brain out with thoughts of the psychopath, so that we could move happily on with our lives!

I think your plan sounds good. My only advice would be to guard yourself emotionally from the emotions of other former coworkers who may be searching for support now that they are without jobs. Simply tell them that you are busy working on your own business. And, with too much time on yourself, try to avoid getting stuck in the past. Continue to work toward your goals. Working, dealing with other office personalities and problems, can be hard. Not working, and having to deal with your own problems sometimes is even harder.

Good luck!

That's exactly it, exactly!

I must have come to the same realization while you were typing.

My survival mechanism was all about tuning into 'the vibe'. It became super sensitive, because it was a case of life and death. My dad told me he would kill me if I didn't behave, and showed me what he would use. All these years on, I still can't be in the room with the things he showed me....my knees just turn to jelly, completely.

Anyway, yes, I got it yesterday. Because of this, I feel like I soak up all the emotion others are giving out. And it ends up being magnified.

Obviously, this can have its advantages, but I've just been through a huge lesson in the negative aspects of it.

Thank you for helping me get to this point. Now that I know, I can start to take measures to change things

Di, thank you for your suggestion.

Unfortunately, things like recordings of my voice, video recordings and photographs are really triggering for me. They take me back to the moments when I had to split off from myself during the assaults.

I think my dad was aware of this, of my self defence mechanism, and would try and do anything he could to bring me back into the room, back into myself, back into the present moment and what to he was doing to me and to how it was making me feel. That was the real battleground between us.

I still don't understand how someone could be so cruel, so deliberately cruel.

So I have been offered a temporary job. It's turning out to be really, really full on in pretty much every way. I'm travelling to another city and back every day, it's demanding physically, it's busier than any place I've ever worked and the standard required is much higher than my previous job.

But guess what? I'm happier than I've been for a long, long time because the people that I'm working with are working with a very good vibe. Sure, they're rushed off their feet (and tired too at this stage), but they're happy and have a great deal of pride in what they're doing.

Tiredness is a huge trigger for me, and it's a big concern at the moment as I do feel pretty tired. There have been moments when I feel ready to flip out big time when I'm travelling to my job. But as soon as I get there and start working, that feeling goes.

So, another lesson learnt...to surround yourself with positive energy is obviously very, very important.

I know this all sounds really basic and dumb. Surely it's obvious, all the stuff I'm saying, but I feel like I'm having to learn all this from scratch.I have another question though. How can you stop yourself from thinking it over all the time?

Hi Starry, glad you have found a great place to work. If it doesn't work out in the energy area, how about what your husband suggested and work on your part time work at home?

The only way to stop the constant head spinning is by taking a breathe and going to your center. It sounds easy, but it takes work. You might try driving to your new work in silence with no radio, etc. and would be a good time to practice. The good thing is when you find your center, your mind is able to let through that "little voice" to help guide you. You are very observant in what your triggers are and maybe practicing letting the spinning stop will help. When you see it happening, return to your breathe and be kind to yourself.

Di

Thanks Di

My job is only temporary, for a month. I'm already a couple of weeks in, so I'm past the half way stage now.

To be totally truthful, I'm absolutely terrified of the silence. When I am on my own and everything is quiet around me (radio and TV off), the screaming inside my head is horrendous. I get totally overwhelmed by the feelings it brings up straight away. It's easier to have some white noise in the background as I feel it distracts me just enough to be able to cope with life.

I guess the feeling I'm left with, after everything, is fear. I'm scared of everything and everyone, starting with myself. I'm scared of my own body, scared of how I feel, about what I know about the harm people consciously inflict on others and about the damage it causes. I'm terrified of other people, and scared of not being able to cope.

The irony is that I have coped with everything that's been thrown at me. And really I shouldn't be scared, as I can't imagine anything that could be worse than what I had to go through (except perhaps it happening to your child).

Hi Starry, just off the cuff, maybe it feels worse now because now you are feeling? You have shown a great deal of courage and sometimes bringing all that stuff back up to cleanse can be horrifying to see. Do you think that because you were able to disconnect that maybe this is a sign that you are connecting?

My sister is a white noise person, she even travels around with a white noise machine. It did take me years to be comfortable with silence and now it is what I prefer but it didn't happen overnight because I was used to all the outside noises. Sometimes it felt like my head was getting dropped on the cement and a jack hammer was going on next to me. Silence is a challenge but worth it, everything takes time to heal. What happened to you took place for a very long time, so be kind to yourself while you process it all.

I am thrilled you are going to be not working soon, you married a very wise man, that is really something to cherish.

Di

It's crossed my mind as well. So now it's a case of getting comfortable with it all? And then maybe it all starts to tone down a bit?



Maybe I'm trying to do too much at once, if I try and cut out the white noise as well then...

I've become more comfortable around food in these past couple of months. Also, weirdly, this temporary job is so exhausting physically, that for the first time I feel that my body has a use and purpose, and that I'm enjoying feeling physically tired. I know, for sure now, that one of the things that would help me move on is exercise. So I should try and go to the gym a bit. But I'm very scared of this.




I've had more than a few people tell me that I'm always expecting too much from myself.




He's amazing

He has a very, very difficult time in letting any of this stuff even begin to cross his mind. So we don't talk about it.

Hi Starry, maybe going to the gym is a bit much for a starter? How about just going out for a walk around the block and see how that works, baby steps. No reason to rush to the gym because you feel it might not work. Even start out by walking up and down some stairs? I loved the movie "What about Bob" with Bill Murray, it is an inspiration in how baby steps can work. If you get a chance it is a very happy movie.

Until we can feel the benefits of good nutrition and exercise it is indeed a hard task. We all struggle with that, now I force myself out because my "kids" want to go for their walk and I know even if we go around the long block they are happy and don't stare at me so their guilt factor drags me out. I have started using some weights but in my room while I watch TV. I thought about a gym but really don't need the expense when I could drag myself out for a walk. A gym just seems too overwhelming, driving there, all the people etc. I try to avoid things that will overwhelm me, we take our walk late at night because it is just too hot now and take a shower when we get back, I sleep better and have one less thing (a shower) to concern myself in the morning. I have learned from my sister's bff, she is very structured which is not how I am but she doesn't spend one day devoted to house cleaning but tackles one room at a time. Now before I hop in the shower I might buzz through a room or two and vacuum so I can keep my house clean because when it is cluttered it bothers me and gives me that overwhelmed feeling. This way I protect myself from trying to fly around in one day to keep up with things. Just simple things, I know when I wake up, my shower is already done, I always wash my dishes before bed so I can just put them away in the morning. I use my own "baby step" methods so that I have time to read, think and be present and stop the rushing wave in my mind. I keep up with politics but limit it to a news show that I can keep up with things, I prefer good old fashioned classic movies.

Soon your job will be done and at first it might feel overwhelming to be home but it could be the best thing that ever happened. Getting to know who you are, not what people told you or how they treated you but the core, good kind person you are. I am rooting for you and know you have take some pretty big steps forward, look how far you have come, calling it for what it is helps define how to move forward and lift that deep cloud of pain.



It will tone down, baby steps maybe start having the volume of your white noise notch down a bit and slowly learn to be in silence. You never had the experience of whatever "normal" is so the world is yours to find your own unique style. You survived the worst part and have been very brave in coming forward and acknowledging and reaching out for help, I can see it from the time you have been here.


We can chat here and support you, he is there in his own way. His support of you taking a break is an act of sincere support in his own way.


Di

Thank you Di.

It's been about 4 or 5 years since my PTSD kicked in.

I stopped speaking to my dad many, many years ago, so I didn't know anything about his life. But 4 or 5 years ago I discovered though a really round about way, that he had another daughter, born soon after I stopped speaking to him. That's what triggered my PTSD.

For 2 weeks after I heard about my dad's other daughter I lay in right in the middle of my bed, shaking, unable to eat anything at all, and throwing up. I knew then in my gut what had happened to me (even though there are lots and lots of black holes where my memories should be). And I knew then that I had to speak up, as he was doing it all again to her, even if the whole world disbelieved me and laughed at me.

The weird thing is, I don't really know who I am. And I don't know how I would get to know myself. I often think to myself, people want to make narratives, want to make sense of the world around them, want to make a story of who they are and what their life is about. But I think to myself, what is the point with me? Why bother? It doesn't seem worth the effort.

Of course, I realise it comes down to self esteem. You do it because you feel that you are worth 'having a narrative'. I guess I don't feel worth it.

Hi Starry, sorry for the delay in responding, I have been thinking about your question. I am wondering, do you think it is possible that when you had the information about your dad that maybe your reaction was because you were either out of disconnect mode or it triggered you out? I am also wondering about having PTSD for the last 4 or 5 years, is it possible that you have had it much longer but only recently was diagnosed with it? Based on your family history I would take a guess that it may have been an issue for a very long time but gone undetected if were "disconnected" as you described?

Di

No problem. I really appreciate your insight.

Yes, I agree with what you said, absolutely.

I kept myself hungry all the time. You know, when you're hungry your focus narrows incredibly. Sometimes it's just the next 5 minutes you're thinking of getting through, or getting to the end of the street if you're walking somewhere because you're so hungry and tired and cold. And you can't think properly if you're effectively starving yourself.

And I worked really, really hard...overworked really and overachieved. I was well known amongst all my colleagues as someone who had their nose completely stuck to the grindstone all the time.

So, for all those years it was all about disconnecting.

I do remember certain things really bothering me, really, really bothering me. But I just thought I was being over sensitive (something that I've been accused of loads of in the past). Now I realise these things are triggers for me and I understand why and how. Back then I thought I was being silly.

I feel really sad about all of this. It's like a life half lived.

Hello Starry,

I haven't been able to post much lately. I came on the forum real quick and caught a bit of your post about going to the gym. I strongly encourage you to go to the gym! My depression did not lift until I started getting excercise. I saw more improvement in my moods when I started becoming regularly active versus when I quit drinking. (That helped too, but the excercise was the ice breaker!)

The endorphins that your body creates while excercising are soooo important! I could go on in great length explaining to you how physical activity has positively impacted my life in these past few months. I just wanted to send u a quick post to let you know that regular excercise really helped me get over a hump. I believe that it could help you too! No promises that it will fix everything, but I promise it won't make anything worse.

Perhaps give it a 3 day trial? Get one hour of excercise per day for 3 days in a row (only walk if that is your level). Come back here and let us know how it works for you. Pay attention to how you feel in the first hour or two after you excercise (when endorphins are still at their highest). Good luck! You can do it!

Hi Violet, great to hear from you. It is wonderful that you are finding a way to feel better. I hope you will continue to share your secrets with us and how you are doing.

Di

Can anyone tell me how the child of a pshchopath thinks? Do they think this parent is crazy or normal? Do they want out? Are they afraid of this parent? Do they wonder why no one reaches out to them?

Hi planetchildren, welcome to our community. I think the best person to answer your questions if she is willing would be Starry or another member who was raised by a Psychopath.

A skilled socialized Psychopath I would guess would be capable of getting a child to believe most of what they say. One of the main tricks a Psychopath uses is that in their minds they are the real victim. If the parent is a Psychopath and in charge of the child, there would be a lot of fear from the child in letting others know what is going on. It is really up to the adults to prevail with clear heads when fighting for justice for a child when a Psychopath is involved. If not handled properly a child may be too fearful to say what is going on because if the person they have to live with is a Psychopath, they can make life miserable and brain wash the child that they (the custodial parent) is a victim and create a Stockholm type syndrome with the child and convince the child that they are the victim and the person they should trust and rely on.

Please be aware there is no getting even, a calm calculated approach to protect the child is critical. If you try to expose the Psychopath by talking to others outside of your family group trying to reach out to the child you run a high risk of it backfiring and the information of what you are trying to do will be told to the Psychopath.

When you are comfortable if you can explain your situation further we can help you the best way we can.

Di

This is a question I've asked myself many times. The agony of reading what the children endure, and being unable to do anything about it for my grandchild is heart-breaking.

We've had a few things happen recently that confirm what we thought - that she was being told NOT to say anything to us about the "Psychopath" parent.

Two things she said to us recently confirm that she has been told (threatened?) not to say things to us. I have to stay pretty vague, but it is so frustrating.

When I think back to when I was with my dad, I remember three emotions: fear, isolation and confusion.

When I name these emotions, I'm not talking about a 'normal' range emotions, I'm talking about these emotions in the extreme. So fear, to the point of splitting off from yourself, losing huge chunks of time and fear to the point of having PTSD now. And an isolation (from myself, from the rest of the world) so deep and desperate as to destroy any hope for the future. Confusion to the point of mistrusting absolutely everyone (including myself).

This is what my dad has given me. I fight with it every day, sometimes every second, of my life. It's utterly exhausting. And it's affected every area of my life. Just to give you an example, I don't work full time because I can't. I couldn't deal with it physically or emotionally. The knock on effect of that is that I have practically no money. This year I'm maybe going to earn a very low wage. Not that I'm overly materialistic, but I'm a middle aged woman scratching around to earn a very basic living. I feel totally humiliated by that.

I think I stay and fight because of the hope and love that my mum, and now my husband, have given me. That's why I'm still here. I know there are good things in me, and I want them (I've made a conscious decision) to be the stronger force. I feel that with every tiny good deed I'm somehow helping to undo the harm that my dad likes to cause

Always there is a parallel track running alongside me, and that parallel track is my dad's view of the world. This became a bit of a sticking point between myself and my OT. She said that I couldn't know how someone else thought and felt. But to survive and to try and stay one step ahead, I had to completely annihilate myself and understand how my dad thought and what it was that he wanted from me. He wanted to be God? Well, yes, I gave him that, I pretended he was God. And there is not one weapon he didn't use against me: starvation, sleep deprivation, sexual assault and rape, death threats (these were his favorites).

I managed to annihilate myself so well, that I'm almost more familiar with his train of thought than my own thoughts and feelings. And this is where I agree with my OT, when she says that it's not a nice place to be. She's right, being inside the mind of someone like that is a very lonely and frightening place. And as lonely and frightening my own mind is, it's marginally less frightening (I think because I have hope and believe in the good things).

I might add some more later. I'm sorry if it all sounds horrible and bad and depressing.

For someone like yourself, concerned, even just hanging in there is an amazing thing.

I really appreciate how much my mum just hung in there. I think that's what made the difference for me, that someone was willing to hang in there and give me a ray of hope. It may seem like a small thing, but it's a life line.

Hi Starry, we are the ones who are sorry for any child raised by a Psychopath. Your words are very powerful to help others to continue to fight if they can to get children out of the grasp of a Psychopath at an earlier age and be there when no one was there to rescue you. Your mom did her best and that is very good that at least you had her but the pain and life you had to endure is truly sad.

I hope you don't mind, I modified your title of this thread so any grandparents or people divorcing Psychopaths can see that they need to fight and keep fighting by knowing from you what the experience is all about. It isn't a pretty picture and you are one strong woman. You may not feel it yourself but I can from you brave effort to heal and be here to share with our community.

If anyone has concerns about what legal avenues are available do a google search for Guardian ad Litem Program (GAL). To search in your area use the words: your city, state GAL. That search will lead you to the specialty area of law that is in place to help you get help for a child in harms way. Clearly any child being raise by a Psychopath would fall into an abused category. I would caution you to not make claims the person is a Psychopath but to clearly make your case for the child being in harm if you are being denied visitation etc. It differs by areas but in some areas grandparents have some rights. You can get to the Psychopath part later but it wouldn't be the best way to start off the conversation, certainly you can show true emotions but be cautious so that you are not viewed as the "problem" in the situation. You need to engage them to help you so your composure is critical. Cry if you want but please have a written down focused approach, I know it is hard because of all of the pent up anxiety but you need to lay out your case clearly so they will know how to either help you or direct you to someone who specializes in protecting the needs of and rights of children. They represent the child as a legal guardian.

Di

Here is an example from the State of Florida, it is a FAQ about how Gaurdian ad Litem (GAL) works: GAL FAQ on what GAL is and how the system operates

No problem Di.

Thank you for your kind words.

I was... my dad. and my mom is his teammate. We 4 children have all had totally different responses. So it depends on the person, the specific details of their childhood (other important adults etc). It's amazing how different we all are. We are a therapists dream.. For 3 of the 4 of us we walk among the more socially acceptable population. Which is hard because this is not where you find people with parents like ours.

The biggest problem is to truly accept his defect.

Since my mom now has Alzheimers and he's not getting the same 'value' from her.. it's getting pretty ugly. He's really angry. Won't care for himself (never had to) and is blaming everyone. No one is allowed to do anything except take care of him.. It's always been only about him.. but now without my mom (u know- emotionally) and having to care for her (which is almost impossible for him) .. man I'm so glad i'm not there to be involved with it. But my poor brother is drowning in the muck. He doesn't see what i see.. but i think he's starting too. which is sad in itself. i worry about him. but he does have a wife.. so, that's good.

I will write more later. Ask me anything. It's been hell.

Hi planetchildren,

I was brought up by a normal mother and psychopath stepfather, so, having one parent a psychopath, I'll try to answer your question:

How does the child of a psychopath think? I would say I over-think everything, over-analyse and try to work out everything to the point of driving myself mad sometimes! I think this comes from constantly trying to be one step ahead of him, to try and work out what he wanted, how to 'please' him (impossible, never good enough), how he could be so cruel in such a clever way that people outside the family could never see, what mysterious motive his weird and often plain mad behaviour had behind it, how to escape his murderous rages, how to stay on his good side, and so on.

When I was very young, of course, I thought he was normal. Then when I was a teenager I began to think perhaps he was eccentric and odd, but I felt sorry for him because I knew a little about his childhood, how emotionally repressed it was etc, I saw him as a damaged person, and bought into the story he is always spinning, that he is a victim in life. I felt compassion for him and tried to be the 'better person' and work towards a good relationship, despite his faults and the way he treated people, me included. Then there were many years of serious rebellion, anger, attention-seeking, wanting him to respond to me, and the only way I could get him to do that was by angering or shocking him, after all, anger is an emotion, a response, he noticed me, even if it wasn't love, support and approval.

Then I grew to the realisation that this man doesn't love me, and never has (a very difficult thing to come to terms with) and that he is, in fact, incapable of love, or in fact, of any emotion. There was a lot of anger (and still is) and a sense of betrayal, unfairness (but hey, life was never fair) and I'm sorry to say it, but hatred as well. Do we want out? Yes. It's so hard to reject a crazy, emotionless parent with huge fake emotions that dominate your entire life and development, but you have to do it. Eventually you feel as if you will break due to the internal tension, the drip-fed bile and manipulation, the smiling bullying (depends on the type of psychopath) you have grown up with. You don't want to say goodbye to a parent, and other people find this very hard when you do it, they think you are hard, unfeeling, unforgiving. They don't understand it's a question of survival.

Now I am an adult, I know he is crazy or whatever you want to call it. I don't like to call it a disorder because this suggests there's a cure for it, that they are victims, they are ill. I suppose they are, but there is no point feeling compassion in the normal sense because it's about as constructive as feeling compassion for a deadly snake that has its teeth round your throat. Now I do feel sorry for him in that he is incapable of real feeling, or having a normal life, and he will always be dissatisfied, will always want more, more control, more money, more sympathy, and so on. He'll never be happy. I, perhaps, will.

You ask if we are afraid of this parent. Oh yes. I was terrified of him, the psychological power he had over me, the way he could 'charm' me like a snake charmer (gosh, so many references to snakes!) and turn my rational brain into putty with a few carefully chosen words. How he can still -and I haven't spoken to him for several years, (apart from once, 2 years ago) from a distance, make me feel like an insecure, uncertain, weak 5 year-old when I'm a 42 year old woman. His power frightens me, the power he still has over others, the power to poison and to manipulate, while others think he's a harmless, charming,misunderstood man who has just made some mistakes.

Which brings me on to your last question - yes, I did wonder why nobody understood or helped me/us. Thank God for my mother and her amazing emotional growth and capacity for healing. Otherwise I would have gone mad a long time ago. It's hard enough being treated this way and having to grow up with it, but then the very, very few times you do confide in people to be pitied (and not in a good way!) and not believed is extremely painful and makes you even less likely to be intimate and open with people. The isolation is possibly the worst thing, as you stay locked inside yourself for many, many years, believing yourself to be the neurotic, crazy, hysterical person you were led to believe you were.

Uff, hope that answers some of your questions! Certainly helped me. Every time I talk about this and am believed it is healing.
C

Sometimes I think I have poison, or acid, running through my veins.

Do any of you other kids of psychopaths think that?

Hi C,

Thank you for your honest expression of what you lived throuh with a Psychopathic parent. It gives me hope that at least my grandson will realize that his Psychopathic mother is the one with a problem. Can you give me any suggestions as to how to reach out to my grandson? As you think back, what do you wish someone would have done for you? I haven't seen him for over a month. His Psychopathic mother has made him believe that I, his dad, and my daughter and her husband are bad people. He is so closed and afraid to open up. I sent him a text tonight telling him that I loved him and that I knew he was confused. I encouraged him to call me, but I don't think he will.

His mother has always made sure that he did not get too close to me. She speaks negatively about me, my son, and my family. My grandson is 14 now and I would love to see him turn away from his evil mother. I hope one day he realizes that she doesn't love him. She just uses him in her own manipulative games for self pleasure. There is no telling what she has done to that poor child to gain material posessions and emotional gratificaiton.

I will fight for him even if I have to do it alone. I will let him know that I am always here for him. I just want to rescue him.

But how?

I haven't read the last few pages so excuse me if I cover old ground.

From personal experience it is little use meeting the issues head on with your grandson as he may, as I did, defend his parent adamantly. My father was verbally very persuasive and able to predict what people would say ahead of time and give seemingly rational explanations which allowed me to “fill in the blanks”. The result was always the same – I hated my extended family for disrespecting my father and not understanding him.

But there were many times when I was on the fence and needed support but didn’t have it or felt abandoned. It was at these times that I most defended my father – probably because I knew other people were right but couldn’t confront that reality. Perhaps if I had felt some “quiet strength” from a family member at that point I would have turned but emotionally they couldn’t handle my constant defence of him.

Eventually it was girlfriend who simply stood by me even in the face of extremely nasty mind games. She didn’t argue with me about my father - she just listened and made it known that she was there and I could count on it.

So my advice is to show him constant and persistent “quiet strength”. Let him know you believe in him but be reserved with information. Psychopath’s seem to use any and all information like it’s their life blood and their victims are often “open books” and tell them everything. If he angrily defends his mother find a way with make him feel your support rather than simply hearing it and listen to him as if your taking onboard his view of his mother.

This is only my advice based upon my experience and may be wrong for others. Perhaps it’s simply a case of time and waiting for him to find out things on his own. It has to feel like his own decision and he has to feel that it is he who has come to the conclusion rather than someone else. he has to feel in control.

I’ve experienced a lot regarding the mind games of a parental psychopath and if you have any questions I am only too happy to tell you about it and what I think works what doesn’t.

SOP

I've been trying to think of how to answer this. It's so difficult...

I would absolutely, totally agree with the above post.

I'd maybe also throw in interest (and maybe even support for) for the things the child likes to do. It could be a private, interior activity like art or writing, or a more sociable activity, like sports or drama. Anything at all which belongs to the child and not the parent.

In the end it was this that was the lifeline for me. It ended up with a showdown between me and my dad. He wanted me to give these things up for him (to stay with him full time, and basically become his slave). For some reason (survival instinct I reckon) I said that I wasn't prepared to. This caused the most horrendous meltdown on my dad's part. He said some horrible, horrible things to me, went absolutely demented. I was utterly stunned...I remember the feeling of my head spinning as he screamed all those things.

I thought he would get back in touch to say sorry, as it was my birthday a very short time afterwards. But he didn't, of course. And I was very shocked and hurt by that. I don't know why that time hurt me more than any of the other times, I mean, I'd only ever had one birthday card from him in my entire life, and even that arrived seven months late. No birthday presents obviously, ever.

So the things that I did that were entirely mine...of course he had pretended to be interested in them, to love them even. But it was all a facade, a way of trying to convince me how interested he was in me, his child, and how much he respected these things, like I did. There were little comments that he made throughout, tiny little contradictions, which I remember as being very incongruous at the time. They sort of jumped out at me even then, like something painful and jagged. To give you an example: he used to talk about books and how much he liked reading and how much I'd helped him to discover this wonderful world. This was something I liked to do (still do) and he knew this. Then he would make little comments that completely contradicted this, that showed he really disliked and felt very contemptuous towards literature.

After the breakdown of my relationship with my dad, I threw myself into my own things with full force, and worked full pelt at them for almost a decade. Eventually, with some distance and after a great deal of thinking things over, the comments and contradictions all seemed to come together, to make sense, to show me the kind of person he really was.

Those things, and the things I mentioned (creative things) are all essentially a way to reconnect with yourself. They help you to reconnect on lots of different levels: instinctively, intellectually, creatively, physically. And it is the complete opposite of what a psychopath tries to do. They want to sever as much as possible: make it difficult for you to think, to string thoughts together, to feel a mind/body connection, connect a gut instinct with a train of thought.

Of course, it might not be the answer in your case. But if you feel that there is something in there that might work for you, then please use it.

The difficult thing, I think, is that a psychopath tries to constantly up the stakes, and push everything towards a kind of conflict. So the difficult thing is finding a way to support an activity that the child is interested in without it being dragged into a conflict scenario.

Hope some of that makes sense...some if it is a bit disjointed, I know.

Thank you SOP! I think you are right on the money. Your analysis does help. We never talk negatively about his mother. I know he would defend her to the end. This would also not help matters and give her amunition against us. We DO have an attorney now to get my son's visitation started back.

I think what you said is so important about listening to him as if we are taking on his view of his mother. We need to let him be the one to open up about her and then pick up on what he says in a [quote] "quiet strength" as you say. That's perfect. That confirms that we are on the right track.

How do you feel about you father now? At what age did you begin to figure it out?

I’ll bare my soul little here because I think it might help others.

I only just figured it all out. I’m 30. It’s not easy to accept that I have been taken for a ride for so long and have lost so much. My mother’s death 10 years ago is the hard part. I know he was involved. The whole situation is unbelievable, disturbing and shocking.

I copied thousands of documents when dad was away and when I’m in doubt and I feel that pull again I just read them. They show a man at the extreme end of the spectrum.

My experience is a fairly extreme one and my mother’s death is one of the reasons it took me so long. I was with her when she died and confronting the reality wasn’t possible until now. I always suspected something subconsciously but no one else knew I was with her. This is a story for another time – it’s long and highly disturbing.

Here are a few things to watch for. I can only attest to their relevance to myself but I want to share them because they may help in some way.

1. Secondary psychopathic traits
I was raised to believe that emotions and the “red flags” that come with them were irrelevant and showed weakness. A variety of actions/behaviours resulted from the dismissal of my own emotions. At times I took on my fathers “confrontationist” approach to things but I could never handle to fall out due to all the alarm bells ringing in my head. Now I know that those alarm bells were normal and that I should have listened to them

2. Deferral of the decision making process
I came to a point in my early 20s where I couldn’t trust my own decision making process and where I second guessed everything I did. I deferred many decisions to my father because he was able to verbally rationalise his reasons so clearly and to a point where there appeared to be only one correct decision/answer. I didn’t feel I could make the right decision by myself.

3. Permanent agenda
Dad never does anything without an agenda. It’s hard to understand what this means unless you’re privy to his world and thoughts. For example if he turned up to a family function uninvited it was with a purpose and if he was hated for doing this it was because he wanted to be hated.

4. Divide and Rule
A family member recently said to me “your father just didn’t understand that it wasn’t socially acceptable to do that”. This is not the right way to look my father’s actions – he understood perfectly. My mother’s family hated him and I defended him hence they became abrupt with me and I felt that they looked down on me. I would complain to my father and he would invent stories to illustrate how they never loved my mother and hence have never loved me. My mother family are lovely people btw – not perfect but very giving and empathetic.
Divide and rule works so well because it enables the psychopath tailor his lies to different groups with the knowledge that social conventions will restrict the flow of information between these groups. My father did this mercilessly and to great effect. In total he has extracted over 1.5 million from my mother’s family.

5. Perpetual monitoring
Dad monitored my bank transactions, phone bills etc. I now know that he pathologically ordered them into dates and times and scribble all overly them as if I was his property and he owned me. If I made a transaction that he couldn’t figure out he would circle it and write “what’s this” and if I made a phone call that he didn’t know the number of he would write “who is this – who is he calling”. This is what he would do to my mother as well. If you have a family member in this position get them to be independent immediately – redirect the mail to a PO Box to make sure and cut of the information flow completely.

I have no idea if this helps any but it might and it’s also therapeutic for me to write down.

SOP

Thank you, it definitely does help a 14 year old boy that has no idea what is going on in his life. Hopefully, by your candid and open discussion of what happened to you, and others that have been open in this forum, my family will be able to understand how to go about reaching my grandson. I just wish that I could have reached him before now. So much damage has been done.

We have no idea how this will turn out for him. Right now, she, the psychopath, offers him money, material posessions, etc. to keep him in her web. Her own family knows that she is a problem, but they have never been willing to address it. She, the psychopath, has one sister, and they have never been able to have a close relationship. But, they are blood

Please continue to post events, thoughts, etc. that you feel. Anything may help us in dealing with this dreadful, evil person.

I guess it took me too long to believe that a person that my son married could be so evil and cruel. It goes beyond jealousy on her part. She never wanted to be a part of our family. All we wanted to do was love her and be happy. Now I belive that all she wants for any of us is to die. My son is 38 years old and had an aortic dissection when he was 34. I believe her manipulation and deceit is to blame for this. His blood pressure spiked, and his aorta began to rip. Thankfully, the doctors were able to repair his aorta and save him.

So what you have to offer will help not only my grandson, but my son, me, and my daughter and her famly.

You said you're just 30. You are a very smart 30 to realize and admit what has taken place in your life. Don't hold things in. Talk, talk, talk, to people that love you. You are the one that has been hurt, and you deserve to heal.

Did your father try to keep you from your mother's family?

Planetchildren

Hi Planet children,

I’m glad you are getting something from my posts and perhaps other others are reading them and perhaps also getting something – these people exist and fact is stranger than fiction.

So a little more….

One member of my mother’s family, (let’s call him cousin B), received over a quarter of a million dollars funding for a business project some 25 years ago. I only every heard dads side of this story but the reality was that dad talked his way into being a business partner of cousin B, gained access to the account and zeroed it. There were no receipts or any such thing so cousin B couldn’t even put in tax returns. In the end he was forced into bankruptcy but of cause from me and my mother’s point of view dad was the hurt one. I recently had dinner with cousin B and learnt the other side of the story.

After my mother’s death cousin B tried to forgive my father and began inviting him to Christmas for the sake of me and for the memory of my mother but it was all too much and so after one christmas they decided that they couldn’t have him around. I was tied in and defended him so they ceased contact with me as well which only made me defend my father more.

I now know that my mother’s plan to leave my father was in the process of occurring when she died. Her family gave her half a million for her to have proper freedom. In her will she left it to me. Of cause my dad said that he couldn’t find the will but it must have been there, (I’ve now talked to the executor of it – it was changed just before she died). So he took this $500 000 and wrote away for her $500 000 superannuation package the day after her death and gave me 10 000 to travel after university – this was money that mum had saved for my education but I didn’t know that at the time. He then made sure that I was away for the next two years. Noone knew I was with my mum when she died - not the family - not the police and not the pathologist.

A week after my mother’s death he moved in the women he had been having an affair with for the past 15 years. I believed his lie at the time – that he never cheated on mum.

Also he has gender/sexual identity issues – this seems to be common for psychopaths.

On top of this my mother’s family were worried I was like my father but felt an obligation to me. They set up a trust for me. Dad set up a fake email account and pretended to be me to my family – I never even knew I was getting dividends – he just signed them out of my account. I was working hard in my mid twenties and didn't think to check my accounts properly.

The story is long and complicated but I have escaped with 100 000. Luckily I’m not the money driven type because if I was I’d feel the pull even more.

We never had money when I was younger we existed on my mother’s salary alone and dad, (I now know) never worked. I have read his emails and letters – he managed to scam a few hundred thousand out of various companies and came very close to scamming a few million at one point. Why no one has taken him apart I’ll never know – he should be in jail a hundred times over.

I find it sad to say this but there are skills to be learnt from the psychopath. There are tactics that work when you’re in a fight with someone. Dad would keep journals on everyone he knew – he would find out their background, job, sex life, money situation and write down his thoughts about their personality and so forth. His paranoia was that other people would turn out to be like him and so he had to get in first.

With all his "business" deals there would be a honey moon period of sweet talking his mark and then out of the blue he would send what I have come to call call a “button pusher” which would never stop short of eliciting a torrent of emotion and anger from the receiver. The “button pusher” is the type of letter that is hard even for an outsider to read. He would take all this personal information and fashion a letter that was both subtle and vicious at the same time. It would hit every insecurity and phobia a particular person had. He would then calmly take the emotional outcry of the victim, turn it around and throw it back at them. Then he would have a cool off period in which he would write all these long winded, grandiose letters that you would fall asleep reading which would outline the history of his fake business and all his fake credentials/business experience. Then he would send another "button pusher" and the process whould start again.

I now this process intimately because he did it to me my whole life and I always thought it was me - I literally couln't see what he was doing.

The victim almost always shoots themselves in the foot eventually. Perhaps they would say something they shouldn’t or, in one case, try to intimidate my father with the letterhead of their boss which dad sent to their boss and which resulted in them being fired.

Reading through all these letters and so forth I am struck by how he handles conflict the most. He understands emotion but he doesn’t feel it –in fact the letters he often received would make a normal person run for cover but dad just loves the process – it’s fun for him. He clearly understands emotions but only in a logical/rational sense. He quite clearly thinks that everyone else has “emotional problems” and that he is the ultra rationalist.

I guess this is why these people prosper in complex environments like cities. They have no problem being hated or even ridiculed so long as there are plenty of other suckers around to take the bait.

It's all about money, power, ego, notoriety and control.

SOP

I do worry as your mother's family did that my grandson will turn out to be like his mother, but I can't give up on him. Hopefully, what he has learned from his mother, he will be able to use to help other people. When he is with us, I see a sweet boy. He is loving and caring. But when his mother is around, he is totally different towards us. He will not allow her to see that he has any affection towards us.

I do think what you said is correct. There are skills that a Psychopath uses that we need to be aware of...a step ahead of...because if we don't, they will get the best of us. We can brainstorm and try to think like them, but we do have remorse and feelings. We do care!!! You have shown that you care by posting and hoping that you are helping others.

I don't plan to give the Psychopath the pleasure of trying to win against her or to even deal with her. This is not about her. This is about my grandson. Just as this is about you and not your father.

At 14 he has had a couple of girlfriends. I know that she cut it off with them. She allowed it at first, but after a while, she made him end it.

I think that my grandson is torn with how he should feel towards us. I know there have been so many lies about us, he probaly is on her side. Or maybe he isn't torn, maybe he does hate us or dislike us. I don't really know.

Like your father, I feel that she will always be in his business until he realizes that she will ruin him if he doesn't get away.

I feel that his only hope is to get away from her.

I know exactly what you mean about the "button pusher". She told me once about her first husband that when she would get angry at him, she would use whatever she could to hurt him. She would find something that he loved the most and destroy it. She knows how to push buttons very effectively and with great pride and pleasure...pleasure at seeing someone else suffer at her expense. She thrives on stirring up trouble. She gets bored if nothing is brewing.

Keep posting!!!

Planetchildren

One thing I would like to say is that if you’ve been taken in by a psychopath, especially a parental one, you’re not stupid or gullible or weak nor incompetent – truth be told you’re probably an open honest person with normal emotions who just can’t understand who anyone could behave or think like these people do.

That’s why this kind of forum is so helpful. Anyone can read through these experiences and can begin to understand that there are people in the world with a personal neurology that differs drastically from the norm in regards to the way they emotionally respond and interact with the world. Such people can never change or be made to empathise with your situation nor can you ever truly win a battle against them or bring them to justice in any meaningful way.

It’s also important to remember that the vast majority of people are not like this. Sure sometimes good people can be mean or inconsiderate but a psychopath will do it strategically and without any guilt or shame. Furthermore I don’t think they really have a choice in the matter… Forgive them for they know not what they do.

These are the thoughts that are helping me at the moment. I am angry but I forgive my father – not in some religious sense, (I’m not religious), but in a way that makes sense to me and allows me to let go and move on which is what I currently doing.

We are above revenge. Revenge is never worth it and we all deserve to be free of bad emotions – these people are not worth it.

SOP

I know this doesn't really fit here, but I found a really good online resource, with something beyond the usual description of character traits:
www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html#eat

The bit about gift giving made sense of something for the first time for me. One of the few times my dad gave me a birthday present it really confused me. It was a random collection of rubbish basically he had lying around his house. Nothing that I would have been interested in in the least, and nothing which hung together as a coherent gift to someone. Just bits of junk. I've always been pretty confused by that, but I get it now, having read some of the stuff on the link.

Hi Starry

There are some interesting things on that link. Did you father ever forget your birthday and pretend that he was too busy during important dates in your life?

My dad did similiar things. A book he once gave me for my birthday was a biography of a man who was raised as a girl. I thought it was very odd at the time but now that I know he has all these gender issues it makes more sense.

With the light bolb turned on I can't help look back over my life with fresh eyes.

SOP

Hi Starry, that is a good article because all Psychopaths have Narcissists traits yet not all Narcissists are Psychopaths.

It gives a good look at what the Narcissists traits that all Psychopaths have are all about.

Here is a discussion thread about NPD and Psychopaths

Difference between NPD and Psychopaths

Di

Thanks Di. I'm going to have a good read of that, because I sort of understand the difference, but not quite.

My dad blamed everyone else for his shortcomings. He would blame my mum for him not giving me a card at Christmas or on my birthday. At best it always really confused me, even as a child. I mean how can it possibly be someone else's fault that you can't go to the shop to buy a card? Or even sit and make one? Surely it's not that difficult? His 'logic' always really confused me...at best.

Yeah, the present thing was weird. It really was junk that was hanging round his house that he gave me that one time...tatty, dog eared, old, stinking of damp.

At worst it really, really, really hurt. It still did, until I read that article. Now I have a context to put it in and it makes perfect sense. It's not about me at all, it's nothing to do with me really. It's all about them lacking empathy. They don't understand what it means to give a present that another person would appreciate and enjoy. The other person isn't even worth the time and energy to search for a present that they would appreciate and enjoy. The other person just gets the random junk and rubbish that is hanging round their house, because that's what they're worth in the eyes of the psychopath.

I feel I can let that part all go now. It's nothing to do with me (although I was caught in the web of it). It's all his stuff. I'm not interested in it, I don't want that in my life...he can keep it.

All Psychopaths also are Narcisstic but not all NPD's are Psychopaths. The dividing line is a Psychopath doesn't have a conscience.

Di

Ah, nice and short and very simple...thank you!

My son's attorney compiled a letter today to the Psychopath letting her know that the court ordered visitation is to be adhered to by her. She is to have my grandson ready for visitation with his father for the week-end. A 14 year old boy cannot refuse court ordered visitation with a parent without answering to the judge. I will let you know how the week-end unfolds. We do not plan to hover and question him. We plan to have fun and enjoy him. I'm sure he will be uncomfortable at first. But, he will feel at ease at the week-end passes.

Hi Planetchilderen,

Please keep us informed of what happens and remember - the light bold will eventually flick on - it just takes time and if you can be there for him when it does it might make a world of difference to his future.

SOP

Things aren't going well. My son called his son last night to let him know that he would be there to pick him up tonight. My grandson told him that he would not be going, and that it is his decision not to go. My son told him that he must be ready to go when he arrived, but grandson said he would come out and say he doesn't want to go. Grandson said that there is no reason putting everyone through this and making him feel bad. He is 14 and he will tell the judge that he doesn't want to visit his dad.

Wow, we are all grieving for grandson. Dad feels a need for urgency. But, if grandson doesn't go tonight, I fear that it will be weeks before getting the Psychopath into court. We also fear that the Psychopath is probably planning an attack that will be destructive to say the least.

The Psychopath has such a tightly woven tangled web around around this boy...I'm sure he can't breath without the Psychopath actually feeling his breath. A healthy teenager is planning a fun week-end with friends. But this one is being emotionally choked.

Planetchildren

Well, as we all know, the Psychopath controls.

Tough day and night...but I will now look on the bright side of things. The Psychopath' mother and sister will have her forever. I won't. Her father is an idiot. I am trying to be the bigger person here, can't you tell? Its really hard when you see your family suffer at the hands of a nut case.

My grandson stayed with his mother and would not go with his dad for the week-end. He told his dad he had too much going on, and he did not want to go with him. Dad ask him why he was mad, and he said he didn't want to talk about it.
She loves the drama.

Her current husband is so stupid. He has no idea what is in his future with this loveless _____.

I am venting. I can do it here because you understand. It does help.

One step at a time...next it will be before a judge.

This sounds pretty bad, huh?

I am just sick to read of this development, the last I read your attorney was sending a letter and someone to go there with your son to pick him up?

I know you will keep fighting. People can't just decide how to follow a court order based on their own whims, except a Psychopath who has their own rules. Her refusal to allow him to visit and we all know it is her giving out the orders will not bode well in front of a judge. Is there some sort of emergency filing your attorney can do? I hope her actions will be what sinks her boat. I hope a GAL attorney can join the legal team to get him out of there.

I am so very sorry but one would think I wouldn't be so shocked, I was so hoping for some good news.

Vent all you want, I don't even know her but would like to cause her great harm and I am no where near a violent person but the idea of a baseball bat to her head crosses my mind.

I cry for your pain and we are here for you. Please think of this as the first step, now your attorney needs to play hard ball. Your grandson is fortunate to have a loving family to put up the fight for him, I am sure our members who were raised by Psychopaths would have dreamed of having a Grandmother like you and your son fighting for them.



Please keep up your hope, they are not only idiots but evil. Keep fighting and beat her at her own game, your Grandson is the pawn in their evil world. You have an excellent attorney, now he needs to take the gloves off. He had to make this first move, this isn't the end. This is why we have a system and I pray it works, I have faith your attorney isn't going to take this and let her off the hook by her snubbing a court order for visitation.

Di

As you can see everyone here needs to vent.

Your grandson will see through the mask of sanity occasionally and hopefully he will feel he can turn to you and poor his heart out - perhaps even admit he was wrong about his mum if he wants to. This may take a long time and when he eventually does turn it could very well be a vicious 180 turn against his mother - this creates its own problems.

One of the most powerful steps is knowing that the person you’re in conflict with is a Psychopath - if only her new husband could work it out. They're all so similar - manipulative, drama creating predators that love conflict, love to illicit painful emotional reactions from people and love to play everyone against everyone else.

Things seem bad now for you but I'm sure they will get better. It's all part of the psychopathic emotional roller-coaster that so many people on thes forums have experienced.

SOP

Thanks so much for understanding. Yes, I would love to take a baseball bat to her. I am not a violent person either, but a Psychopath can make you want to harm, although I never would. I am nurturer and a caring an loving person. I can't tell you what I feel towards her. I can't pray for her. She is evil.

I could hardly bear the pain that my son had to go through again by having his son reject him Friday night. He spoke with him for a couple of minutes and then handed him his child support check to give to the Psychopath.

I talked to the attorney today and he is getting the contempt papers ready for my son to sign. He is going to ask that a GAL be appointed to my grandson. Thanks Di for suggesting this. But, I'm sure the Psychopath is planning a big hit for the court...lies of course. But, she will have to have a reason as to why she isn't making my grandson go with his dad other than he dosn't want to.

I do hate that my grandson will have to deal with the fact that his mother is evil, but the sooner he does, the sooner he can get the help he needs. Most of all, the sooner he can get out from under her infulence and live his life.

The child has never had his own life. He doesn't know what it's like to live without lies and manipulation.

We have a great attorney! I told him we are counting on him to get my grandson out from under the influence of this dragon.

Hi, a great attorney is what you need and am so happy you have one in your corner. One way to look at it is that her denying court orders doesn't bode well in the eyes of the law. You just can't on a whim decide to take court rulings and translate them into what you think they are, well unless a Psychopath is involved.

I am not a violent person in any manner, I returns bugs outside if they should get inside by mistake. I toned it down, I was really thinking in terms of guns but we all know that violence and evil doesn't translate into those being our actions.

I am glad to hear a GAL attorney will be involved, the few I looked up in your area looked great, I liked the older lady who said she doesn't get pushed around, however a male GAL may also know how to fight as hard being a father themselves.

I thought your son was going to show up with someone else, what happened there? Did your grandson come out to the car to deliver her message?

In a way it is a good thing she is snubbing the court order, that won't give her many positive points along with putting your grandson in the middle to do her dirty work in denying custody. Any rationale adult would not put a child in this position.

You will win, you have it in you and can take the burden off your son and not harm his health anymore than necessary.

All my best thoughts and thanks for letting us know your progress. I am sure there are many grandparents out there reading your story and will hopefully find the inspiration to take action. If we don't protect the children, who will.

Di

Hey Di,

Yes, my son had my son-in-law in the car with him and a Private I followed along. My grandson came out to the car in his socks and talked for a couple of minutes. All he said was he had a lot going on with school and sports. My son said quote "you don't have too much going on to spend time with your dad." My son asked him why he was mad at him, and he said he didn't want to talk about it. Those have been his words for 14 years when we asked him if something was wrong.

I am going to be positive about this. I have to believe in out system. Our attorney said that my grandson can't just decide not to go and visit his dad for no reason. As you said, the judge will not look favorably on his mother for not making him go. But, she will say it was his decision, and she could not physically make him go. As the attorney said, she makes him go to school and everything else he does is mandatory.

I just hope it won't take too long. I asked the attorney if he could put her mother and sister on the stand. I don't think they would lie for her. They know how evil she is. He said he could. What is your opinion. Do you have any suggestions as to any approaches to take with her. We have to get her in court. Now is our chance to shut her down and let her know we mean business.

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

Hi, I hope your attorney can call for an emergency court date, this has gone on with her games for too long. If you think her sister etc. won't lie, I wouldn't count on that but a sharp attorney will call them on their lies. I am sure there is some way to get an emergency court date since your grandson is at risk. I am sure GAL attorneys and your attorney deal with this everyday.

Push it into court as quickly as possible, that would be your best bet. Since your attorney knows she is a Psychopath, he should be able to push her buttons quite well and get to her.

Find out what kind of grades your grandson is getting in school and see about getting information from his teachers, how is he behaving, his school scores, is he withdrawn and any information you can have for your attorney (ask him first). I am just guessing but I would bet is school record isn't so great with all the pressure she has on him at home.

Now that her x is out of the picture I am sure she is already lined up with men, it would be interesting to put her under the radar of a PI to see if there is any dirt. You know she isn't just sitting home playing good mommy but may just have a parade of male visitors. It would be worth the expense just to see if you can dig up dirt.

Does she work? If so what does your grandson do while she is at work? I am betting the farm she is out dating and leaving him home alone, dig for dirt.

Di