Just want to say, Newbird, Starry, parentsonlyhope... very positive, maybe inspiring messages and reinforcement recently here. Thank you, all.

Newbird, got to lift this in particular, "There is nothing to be ashamed of. Why should we be ashamed of being loving and caring and trusting, true and faithful?... It takes a great courage to tell the truth. And when things like these stories here happen, the FIRST thing to do is to stand up, and tell the truth."

Momminus, good advice for us, I guess I needed to hear this.

daughtersonlyhope:

The article on Psychopathy in Wikipedia seems quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

It also talks about the lying. The lying aspect is really interesting I think. The important thing to keep in mind (regarding lying and all the other behaviours they display) is to never judge these people by the standards of our own behaviour.

So you ask, 'why would she lie about xyz?'. I don't think the reason is one that we would give ourselves, or which would make sense for ourselves.

My dad contradicted himself so many times, and so utterly blatantly. But guess what? He just didn't care if he was caught out, or if his story was inconsistent.

At first I thought he was being honest with me, and telling the truth. Then things began to get confusing, as there seemed to be too many things he said and did that contradicted each other. But he seemed to be able to talk himself out of anything and he was so upfront, so convincing. Eventually, I began to suspect that he was lying about some things as there were just too many inconsistencies.

Now, a lifetime later, I think he lied about pretty much everything. It was all a performance, all a facade, all a lie. His aim was to give me what he had worked out I wanted (and believe me, these people have the most incredible way of working out what it is that you want. Even things that you didn't even realise that you needed, they have a knack of putting their fingers right on it). In giving me what I wanted, he kept me hooked, dangling, needing whatever it was that he was giving me. He kept me trapped in his web.

It's taken me my whole life to work this out (and I'm now very middle aged).

So, when you say 'why would she lie about xyz?', my answer would be along the lines of 'because she's worked out that this is really important to you, and she's giving you what you want'. I would imagine she would gain your trust this way? Perhaps she'll then shift her attention elsewhere, perhaps out of the house, cause some damage there? All the while you believe she's trying her best, working hard, being truthful, and all the while you're giving her a roof over her head, food to eat, so she is free to turn her attention elsewhere, use her energies for causing damage elsewhere.

Sorry if that is all quite upsetting to read. It's hard to believe that there could be people like this out there. It's even harder to believe that they're related to you. I know how that feels.

Monroe, I think you've been very positive as well. I can be, and am, very positive around other people. I won't let any blame go to me or my husband. It is only around my closest friends where I let doubt show. I also question myself. I go over the dumbest things that maybe could have made her that way. I do need regular reminders that this all isn't my fault. There was no abandonment, alcoholism, abuse, or any other type of thing that might lead to a mixed up child. I KNOW it wasn't me, but it's just so hard to comprehend how a person turns out this way. I hope you know that you are not to blame also.

daughtersonlyhope-

I don't want to be negative, but realistic. I must agree with Starry. My daughter would tell me things that she did or almost did- for the sole purpose of gaining my trust. She had told me that she really wanted to change and begged for my help. I thought she was trying when she "confided" in me. She'd tell me when one of the scummy guys that she used to hang out with texted her. I thought that she was really seeing the light. Then, there were all the things that she wasn't telling me. I wasn't quite as aware because she had earned some of my trust. She had a secret phone that I was unaware of. All unacceptable plans were made on that. She'd asked me to visit her at work (retail job) because it was boring. I was so happy that she wanted to see me. The reason behind that was because she knew that after I'd been there, I wouldn't be back that day. She could lie about her hours and spend time with the scummy guys. There were so many ways that she deceived me. I'm sure that I don't even realize half of them. I hope your daughter is the exception. I do wish you luck. Just please be careful.

momminus1,

The current theory is that this is primarily genetic. Just random.

We all have physical strengths and weaknesses. We are all unique. Look at any family with >1 children and they are totally different, although raised by the same parents.

Don't look at your child rearing for answers. I'm sure extremes on either side of the coin, permissive versus strict, kind versus abusive, has an impact on the outcomes of these people. But I don't believe it is the root cause. And studies are supporting this.

I still don't understand it fully, but I've seen research that the brain is not fully developed until the early 20's. Maybe there is some type of treatment? Maybe she's just a pain..? I'm just grasping.

I also believe there are varying degrees of the problem. Which explains alot of human behavior.

So, if she is definitely a Psychopath, no empathy and conscience, she's really not concerned about you and is just manipulative.

When I read the posts of parents of Psychopaths, I actually believe that would be worse than being raised by a Psychopath.