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#11610 - 08/23/11 04:14 PM daughter with AsPD
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31

I think that my 19 year old daughter has ASPD. She constantly lies to us. We can't trust a thing she says, down to the simplest most unimportant things. She'll lie about where she ate-Arby's when it was Taco Bell. She CAN NOT tell the truth to save herself. Of course there are the big lies too. She has had one night stands with guys she just met that night. She slept with her boss. She also had been sleeping around with a 28 year old from her work when she was 17. She is currently living with a 40 year old. This is the second man that she has lived with since graduation. She has also been very disrespectful. She calls her dad an [censored] and constantly tells me, "[censored] you", "you're a stupid f_cking [censored]", "i hate you". She said that we fail as parents and that we caused her to be like she is.There has NEVER been an apology for ANYTHING!!! She has told people that I've done things that I've never done. She tries to make me look crazy. She left her facebook up and I read some of the stuff that she said about me. She's a compulsive liar, who will use anyone to get what she wants. People have written me nasty things and told me to get help, all because she told them that I was crazy and hacked her facebook. She told me on Mother's Day that she didn't love me, and didn't think that she ever did love me. She also said that she has never felt guilty about anything. She mysteriously lost her best friend after 8th grade, blaming the girl for being stuck up. I now think it was all my daughter because she is incapable of maintaining friendships. She's now trying to get me to feel bad for her separation from our family. She says that she doesn't know what she did. I feel like I don't even know my daughter. Everything she told me was a lie. I don't know her likes or dislikes, they keep changing with who she lives with. I feel like she never enjoyed being with me, she just used me for a place to live and for money. The financial support has stopped. I had to cut contact down to a minimum because of my sanity, my marriage, and her 14 year old sister. My 14 year old tells me not to give her sister another chance, that she'll just hurt us all over again. My head tells me to keep away, but my heart holds out hope for her. How does a mother end contact with her own daughter? Where did my girl go?

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#11612 - 08/23/11 10:51 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
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Hi momminus1, welcome to our community. I am sorry for what pain you are in over your daughter.

I think your 14 year old daughter is very wise in what she is saying. It is very difficult beyond belief when it is your child. Please know there is nothing that you did wrong. You could have been a super hero mom and the results would be the same, unfortunately. The conscience forms between 3 - 5 years of age so essentially your dreams for your daughter took another path at that point.

She is following all the typical patterns, she sees herself as the victim so sadly, there is nothing you can do because to fight back and try to defend yourself just doesn't work. You have nothing to defend. If you were such a rotten person, there is no way your young daughter would be as wise as she is. There is no excuse and even in the cases where people had lousy childhoods doesn't make them into a Psychopath. They are born, not created.

She may not know what she did because her entire world is focused on herself, they lack the capability to see any other views beyond their own. Self reflection is not part of their makeup.

It helps them to remain in the position of the victim and pointing at you and your family as the bad guys, that is part of the isolation process. People feel sorry for her and she uses that to lure them into her web of deceit.

To try to defend yourself is a futile exercise, yes she will bad mouth you, that happens in the process of behavior to isolate you from others. It must be unbearable because you know in your heart of hearts that you and your family did everything they could. The part that must be most wrenching is that in order to save your own family you need to protect yourself from her. Your younger daughter needs you now more than ever. It is good that she is seeing things as they are so you can be assured her older sister won't turn her into a negative person toward you and your husband.

You mentioned not having friends when young. Were there moments when she was very young that you started to question her actions?

Please be kind to yourself, you didn't do anything wrong, there was nothing you can do or should have done, the results would have been the same. The more you can keep your family under her radar and away the better your life will become. It must be a terrible place to be as a parent to know that the only way to deal with the situation is to cut off contact.

When you are comfortable sharing more we can help support you through this difficult time. It must be a nightmare to even have to acknowledge that she will never change. You do need to remember that there was nothing you could have done that would have changed the outcome of what she is today. I am sure if you look back you will see that she has been this way her entire life and being good parents I am sure you probably tried harder and harder to love her and Psychopaths are unlovable. They only care for themselves.

I am sorry for what brought you here.

Di

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#11615 - 08/25/11 06:19 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Thanks so much for the advice/information. I need to be reminded of all that. It's just so difficult for me to believe that I raised a child like that. I know in my head that I was a good mother, but then I second guess myself. We are a good, normal family, though. There is also the "why me?" part of it. I try to tell myself that some families have kids with downs syndrome or cancer, the AsPD just happens to be what our oldest daughter has.

In retrospect, I see lots of signs, but who would ever have guessed they were leading to this? She always lied more than I thought was normal. There were at least 3 cases where she minorly hurt someone at school. She has a very poor attention span and we were convinced that she had ADD. All these instances could have been attributed to her not paying attention to what she was doing, but now I think otherwise. She always seemed to be in a world of her own. For example, she'd start singing while you were talking to her. There were so many teachers in grade school (K-8) that she/we thought didn't like her. I just couldn't understand why she was always being blamed for things. She had one best friend during those years. After a camp the summer after 8th grade, the girl said that she couldn't be my daughter's friend anymore-no explanation. My daughter said that her friend wanted to make new popular friends in high school. I was at a loss, but now I'm sure that my daughter must have betrayed her friend. Other than this friend, I was the only person that she really bonded with. She never, even as a small child, would just go hug anyone else or sit in their lap. It wasn't that she was shy, just not interested. I thought that she could be mildly autistic due to only bonding with me and being in her own world. Looking back, I guess I made a lot of excuses for her in my mind. Who would have ever thought that she was a Psychopath? I just thought that she was a strange kid. Her IQ is very high, so I thought she was bored with a lot of people and things.

Things got noticeably worse after puberty. The lies increased, the bad behavior became worse, and I noticed the preoccupation with guys. Much of what she said and did I questioned. There were too many coincidences to be believable, yet I had no proof for most of them. I doubted her, and she acted deeply hurt, so I told her that I hoped things weren't true and I'd take her word for it. This was usually after long question periods where things didn't add up, the world was against her, but I just had no proof (only gut feelings). She never had a close friend in high school. In fact, whenever she got a friend at all, it didn't last long. There was cheating on tests, plagiarizing, and she even brought a flask to school. I would be told repeatedly how she was near the top of the class, or the best at something, only to find out the contrary. She had boyfriend after boyfriend. Each relationship ended with her cheating on the guy. January of senior year was when she couldn't hold it together any longer. Things went downhill fast. She would threaten to not come home. I had to fight to get her to school everyday. She yelled at me a lot. She got a 25 year old boyfriend. Her behavior was so bizarre that I thought she might be on drugs. I even went to an Al-Anon meeting. She pretty much fit the criteria, but I searched her car and room and really don't think that was the case. Plus she had drug tests for employment then, and passed.

After graduation came lie after lie and guy after guy. She would have a boyfriend, but I found out about one night stands, sex with guys from work, and other rendezvous. This was the worst period for name calling directed at me. This was also when I noticed her telling lies about me to get others to believe her.

Right now she is 19 and living with a 40 year old man. I met him once to let him know why there are problems between my daughter and me. I'm sure she told him a different story. He said that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. If only he knew! I, of course, don't approve of this relationship, but that is not even my main concern right now. My daughter is! I think a normal 40 year old man wouldn't go for a 19 year old girl, but I know she charms and flirts. Two old boyfriends have told me that she came on to them and practically raped them. This guy denies that was the case. Part of me feels he deserves what he's getting, but he other part wants to help him. He seems to believe her over me, though.

I have been struggling with the reality of everything. I have to accept it. My precious daughter is not who I thought she was. My 14 year old will never have her big sister back the way she thought she had her. Everything was an illusion. A piece of me is missing. It's really like a death.

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#11622 - 08/25/11 03:25 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
It is like a death, isn't it? And I think there's a big part of the process of coming to terms with it all which is to do with grief and mourning.

Thank you for posting. I understand that the clarity of thought you have, and the way in which you write, is the result of a great deal of pain on your part. I'm really sorry for everything that you've had to go through.

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#11644 - 08/28/11 09:15 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi momminus1, it is like a death without the funeral so closure can be very difficult if not impossible when it is your own child who you had great dreams for. I suspect your daughter would fall in the category of highly socialized and those are some of the toughest ones. The rest of the world will see her "good" acting side. Knowing what she is capable gives you that knowledge is power benefit. Even though no contact is the only way to deal with a Psychopath it must be an extra heart breaker to know you will need to do this in order to protect your daughter, husband and yourself. Isolation is a key factor so it is more than likely she is indeed blaming you, that is their stock in trade to gain status as the victim. Many will believe her but you know it isn't true what she says, lying to make herself the victim is just the sad part of the reality of how a Psychopath operates. It is good your husband and daughter see what you do, many times the other members don't and it can cause a divide in your own relationships which you need to protect. Follow your wise daughters advise, clearly you have been a great mother to have such a wise daughter. It is a gene that caused her to be this way, nothing you could have done to change things now or in the future will make any difference.

When you hear things she is saying it will take practice but you have nothing to defend and in defending yourself against her lies will only drag you down. Just scratch those people she has in her web off your list. You can try to defend yourself until you are blue in the face but sadly it will fall on deaf ears so save yourself the extra anguish, you know what is up. If people choose to believe her then that is their issue, not yours.

She will have many relationships and when she is involved with someone there is no reason to try and warn them, they won't "get it", she has gotten to them first with her sad tale of what a victim she is. You are right, what kind of 40 year old man would hook up with a 19 year old, that speaks loudly about him. He is clearly under her spell.

We are here for you.

Di


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#11653 - 08/30/11 05:51 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Thanks Starry and Diane. I'm having a difficult time right now. My daughter has contacted me and is blaming all of our problems on me. She's also blaming her separation from the whole family on me. My whole family, immediate and extended, is well aware of what she's done for years. I haven't had to brainwash them. Most don't even know half of the things she's done. It's too embarrassing. She's also still saying that everything that she did to me was in the past, so it's over and should be forgotten. Well, isn't every harmful thing that someone does to someone else in the past after it's done? What logic is that?

Sorry for the rant. I appreciate your responses. They help. I think I need to call a local mental health facility to try to find a support group for victims of psychopaths. Don't know if that will help, but I need help dealing with this and can't call my friends everyday.

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#11656 - 08/30/11 06:12 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
You're always welcome to post on here, as much as you want. We will always take time to read what you say and listen with care and compassion.

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#11657 - 08/30/11 06:15 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
By the way, I totally understand the 'making it seem as if it was all your fault' manipulation. My dad was really, really good at it too. He did the most outrageous things, and it was always someone else's fault. He was forever the victim.

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#11658 - 08/30/11 07:08 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi, yes there isn't any logic to what your daughter is saying, she is just exhibiting like Starry acknowledged their operating pattern.

I have a suggestion, I know it would be hard to just cut off all contact abruptly but maybe to work your way in that direction I have a couple of thoughts. How about if you only have one phone number that she can call. Make it a cheap land line in your home if you need to with Caller ID. Change your cell phone numbers so she only has access to you via that one phone number. If she wants to know or starts after you over your cell phone number, just tell her you got a new cell phone plan so you had to change the number. Do NOT give her the cell phone numbers but give her the land line number to call. You need your space so when you are trying to rest and be with your family simply unplug the phone so you won't even hear it ring. I think when someone is being harassed like you are clearly being the last thing you need is a feeling of panic when the phone rings because you know what the outcome of the call will be.

This might help you to be able to think straight and be focused on yourself and your family and not be a sitting duck for her attacks.

ALL Psychopaths consider themselves the biggest victims in the world, they can't see themselves as anything other than as a victim. Odd how it works because they are the ones who are victimizing others.

When she calls and does get you on the phone it is important to start setting up some boundaries on the calls and it will take a great deal of effort and pain for you to do. When she gets started simple tell her you have an appointment and have to go. You have nothing to defend. You were and are a great mother and there is nothing you can say or do that will change how she chooses to behave. It is truly sad but that is the reality of dealing with a Psychopath.

Hopefully if you are able to take this first step, then I would suggest talking to your family about just cutting off the land line eventually and removing her foul energy from your home by not giving her access.

Your family needs you and your daughter at home has already acknowledged that she doesn't want her around and I can guess she doesn't want to see you in such pain. Spend your time and energy with your daughter who needs you. You did nothing wrong. Having your husband and daughter on board already is a big hurdle that you don't have to make to convince them and they will support you but something has to happen to stop the crazy making blame game she is pulling on you.

Like Starry said, vent all you want here, we "get it" so just blast away and we'll be here for you.

If you want to find a support group or therapist be very clear you are in the right place. My therapist was all about blaming my parents and did little to help me move forward. I joined a support group for depression and hung in there for around 6 months. I liked the other people in the group very much and felt a great deal of compassion for them but I finally quit because it was making me more depressed.

Di

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#11661 - 08/30/11 06:24 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Thank you Starry and Diane. I do know most of what you're saying. I just have to be reminded because the whole situation is so unbelievable. Being reminded is also a form of support. That way I know it's not me. No wonder it's hard for others to believe, I have to keep reminding myself of how things were. I am feeling much better than I was this morning. For now I just see her words as so unbelievable and callous that it is making it easier to end all contact. She told me that I lost my daughter. I can block her on my cell phone and my land line has caller ID. That is perfect. She won't call, she only texts. With the land line, I still know that I can be contacted in case of a serious accident.

Thanks again.

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#11662 - 08/30/11 07:36 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
Loc: United States
Hi, one other option to consider is to change your account so you don't get text messages from her, who needs that, it is predictable what is going to happen.

I use a Skype line that I use for when I have to register online or any Dr's etc. It is cheap and when it is set to go to VM I have it set to send me an email notification. Because I only have my brother and sister they the only ones who have my land line number. I have been battling a blood disorder due to medications so I don't want any intrusions, my land line is unlisted. My neighbor does have my land line in case of emergency (we have some nut cases (meth addicts) living in the neighborhood and are working to get them out of here.

I would think about getting away from her being able to text you when a person is in a high anxiety place dealing with a Psychopath blocking their immediate access is the only way.

Skype is cheap so if you cut off the text you could give her that phone number to deal with her when you want to. It costs $2.95 per month and to have your own phone number it is around $11 every 3 months so it averages around $8 per month. Skype If I am expecting a call from a Dr. etc. I just forward my Skype line to my land line.

That way she can't text you and if she is so hot to get a hold of you your Skype line will give her a number to call and you can isolate her communication that way. Just telling her no more texts won't work unless you change your text access. She will not stop until you cut off her ability to harass you via text. Give her the Skype number so you can see by email if she has some emergency an emergency to a Psychopath is not what normal people view as an emergency. Her only emergency is to get a hold of you to pound you into the ground.

Even screening your caller ID is still a way to create anxiety because if she is cut off from texting you she will probably resort to calling. I would get your land line unlisted and only give it out to people you want to have it, give everyone else the Skype number, people mean well and will call to see how things are going but you need to find a place where you engage on your terms. Why jump and get nervous like you are a hostage if she takes to calling you. Give the Skype number to her and anyone else that you need to protect yourself from hearing from. When I first changed over to a land line I quickly realized why to get it unlisted because of telemarketers etc., if a Dr. needs to change an appointment I get an email so I can call them back when I am up to it. I need to accept calls etc. on my terms and don't want to be interrupted or have to unplug my phones in order to rest or just read a book or watch a movie.

She will interrupt and cause havoc unless things get changed so she can't reach you when you need the time to heal and work on processing what is going on and spend quality time with your family. Receiving calls from anyone needs to be on your terms, it eliminates getting your day ruined with information you can deal with on your terms.

Keep telling yourself that you did nothing wrong and work toward the neutral zone. Your true friends and relative will understand why they can contact you best with your Skype line. Skype does have a text feature but I keep it disabled.

Di

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#11741 - 09/12/11 06:24 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Ahhhh!!!! I have had no contact since the morning of texts. It kind of was a final event for me since my daughter was the one who said "You just lost a daughter." I knew I was no longer "needed".
I just got a call from where she works. They asked for her. When I said that she didn't live here anymore, they asked if she was still at the beach. I don't know why that hit me so hard. Was it because she owes me $3000.? Was it because she's moving on and doesn't care? Was it because I am really removed from her life, and have no idea what my own daughter is doing? I don't know. I think it's all 3.
I'm thinking of going back on my paxil. It makes me not care so much, but it numbs me to everything, even the good things. I would rather grieve and hopefully get over it (as much as is possible). I will only go back on paxil if I can't function properly for my family and my job.
Thanks for reading.

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#11742 - 09/12/11 07:07 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
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Hi, it must be conflicting but in a positive way she was the one who said she wasn't your daughter. Brace yourself to repeat those words back to her when when she tries to contact you down the road and she more than likely will sometime in the future. Forget the 3K, you will never see it again.

Look how well you have functioned in this horrific situation. Write here, talk to us and we can help you process what is going on. Putting things in writing is a powerful tool, there is something about seeing things in writing that helps those pieces fall into place. You must be living a loving mothers worse nightmare is happening but the reality is she is not able to be saved or be your daughter.

Grieve and go through the process to be there for your daughter that needs you.

I am very sorry you have a daughter who is a Psychopath. There is nothing you did wrong, you sound like the type of mother most would dream of having.

Di



Edited by Dianne E. (09/12/11 11:25 AM)
Edit Reason: revise comments

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#11745 - 09/12/11 10:37 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Hi Diane and Momminus

It's hard to write this, but somewhat cathartic (sp?), as it's been a while since I've shared my experiences with anyone but my wife. My daughter's last, and wonderful therapist finally (and gently with us) diagnosed my daughter (as having "anti-social tendencies", and "some sociopathic symptoms" before we really knew what those meant. I had been taking her to anorexia therapy and psychiatrist meetings for years - a painful hour of driving (each way) with her. Her prior therapist of two years finally told me she was tired of being her "pawn", that's how that ended. Her more recent therapist had told us (looking at my wife) that she maybe need more love and attention. Then over time the therapist began to see the lies and deceit. She realized that anorexia, which is no longer a real medical issue, was not the big issue... And she apologized to my crying wife and said she had been deceived by my daughter as well.

She refuses therapy now, and I don't think it can be productive anyway. Once a therapist figures her out, she becomes aggressive when confronted.

I recently read through the transcripts of the sessions - group and individual - she had had with a therapist and read a novel of lies about the mistreatment and abuse she had supposedly endured from us. It was shocking, but the therapist eventually caught on to the inconsistencies. Therapist also used the term "bad seed" when comforting my wife.

The nationally-recognized children's hospital psychiatrist, who had for three years told us to hold onto hope (re: eating disorder) told me in our last meeting that she had "co-morbidity" symptoms, or something like that. He told us we should ratchet back the hope - not for her anorexia symptoms but for her life, but didn't tell us what he really saw in her, I think. He didn't have the heart I'm convinced, and maybe wasn't certain, but had seen what was underneath her facade.

My daughter has two younger siblings. This has been a Hell for them. My youngest is 12, then a 15 yr. old daughter.

I would love to be able to inject compassion, remorse into my daughter. Her cruelty to them is shocking and destructive.

If a college accepts her and she stays out of trouble with the law, she will be in college next year. Last night she said she was considering going to a local community college, then attending college, as in my State, that approach can get you into a better school. I think she wants to stay at home where she can get what she wants. I am going to tell her that that is not an option at some point, that she needs to move out by by next September. I don't think telling her will be hard for me, but making it actually happen may be...

I'll stop back again, thanks for sharing your thoughts here.
_________________________
Monroe

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#11746 - 09/12/11 11:41 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi Monroe, I am sorry it took the therapist so long to get it and put you and your wife in pain during the process.

Most professionals due to guidelines of diagnosis will tell you between the lines like this expert did. Many times they use the word "conduct disorder".

Therapy is know to make a Psychopath worse so it is best that it is no longer being offered to her or her accepting it.

It is a difficult decision to ask your daughter to leave but it is vital to protect your family and her siblings. You did nothing wrong as a parent and it seems you have traveled a long path to reach this decision.

Unfortunately once you tell her to leave it has to be final, she will continue to try to work her way back in by being the victim, when doing so keep thinking you are doing the best to protect your family. It is almost like having a funeral without the process. Keeping her as part of your family can cause long term effects on her siblings and they need you now more than ever. Do you need to wait until September for any particular reason, what are the laws in your State for a parent to no longer be responsible for a child/adult? If it would make it easier, maybe think about getting her an apartment (don't cosign for anything) but just pay the first couple of months and tell her she is on her own if the law allows this in your State.

I would think waiting until next September which would bring one more year of hell would only cause more harm and havoc for your children and family who need you. Now that you know she has to go, what would be the best way to not wait for another year of pure evil with her in the home?

Di

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#11749 - 09/12/11 01:06 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
planetchildren Offline
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Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46

I have read a little. I have a former daughter-in-law that is a Psychopath. She has destroyed so many lives. For the sake of your other children, I think you need to admit to them what is going on with your daughter. The parents of my former daughter-in-law allow her to contiune to destroy even their own grandson.

I agree with Di, the longer you wait, the more harm that will come to your family. Just remember, she doesn't love her siblings, she loves the lies, manipulation, and drama she can stir up for them. She thirves on destruction.

Your family depends on you for protection from danger and evil. I'm so gald that you now realize this horrible hand that you were dealt. It's so unfair. I'm sure you wonder why you? But you can help others from what you have learned and will continue to learn.

You will probably believe it some days and other days you will want to hand it back to where it came from. You must be a strong person, and that strength will spill over to the rest of your family. They will understand how hard it is for you and respect you for what you have to do on their behalf.

Planetchildren

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#11750 - 09/12/11 02:11 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Well, she definitely evolved over the past 4 or 5 yrs., the doctors/therapists likely saw her changing and hardening before their eyes. I agree, the therapy was not a good thing for her. She spent two 3-month periods in treatment (anorexia) centers - which were not treating the behaviors that we see now or saw then. We actually thought that if she only ate more.... She met and lived with other psychopaths during those periods, so really fine-tuned her "skills".

We have been planning to let her finish high school here, we live in a great school district and want her to have that asset before she embarks. We've put systems in place that limit the time she is exposed to her siblings. It's like a cordoning off of the house. And she works during the weekends, does not join us in any family outings. She doesn't resent it really, she gets what she wants/needs, and the boundaries are effective, although clearly dysfunctional.

Dianne, I asked her (before I read this blog) some time ago if she know what a Psychopath was. She stared at me, that was about it. At the time, I wanted her to know that I was aware of who she has become and how a Psychopath operates - she is the definition of a psychopath/Psychopath. I think she knows and has no problem with it at all. She is content with herself, superior and confident. Yesterday, she told me she thought that a woman she worked with was a Psychopath - I think she had thought about my question and had prepared to have a face-to-face on the topic with me. She is very good at setting up a confrontation and manipulating an outcome. I didn't respond. But I'm curious why a parent should avoid this.

To answer your question, she turns 18 this month, so could be independent in weeks. And I do plan on getting her set up in an apt. (and changing our locks, etc.) at the end of the school year. Next summer would depend on her behavior, but would also give us, and her time to make the transition. This will be tough for my wife.

My family spent 10 days away without her this summer, so we all know what life will be like without her. My other kids talk about, and look forward to it. Awful stuff.....

She was a loner as a little girl which is why I spent so much time with her and made a point of "being there" for her. She had many idiosyncrasies, even spoke her own made-up language when she thought we weren't listening, but I don't think this could have been predicted.
_________________________
Monroe

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#11751 - 09/12/11 02:18 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Thanks very much planetchildren, for bringing additional clarity. I need to give this some thought. Removing her at this age would be just so harsh. But my other children, you're right... They will certainly be (better) prepared for any exposure to Psychopaths in their future, but that's no reason to subject them to this now, I know.
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Monroe

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#11752 - 09/12/11 04:40 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi Monroe, it does sound and seem harsh but in reality it is the only way to save your family.

She will view you with contempt no matter how hard you try for a transition time. A week, 6 months or a year she will erode your family.

You are a very caring family so viewing this as a harsh move shows you have emotions etc., she doesn't and never will.

I don't think it would make a bit of a difference how long she stays or how soon you get her a new place.

It would naturally be very difficult for any parent, who would in their wildest dreams think the tiny baby you brought home from the hospital would turn out to be a Psychopath.

Psychopaths can only see themselves as the victims, if you let her stay for the rest of her life she will never learn boundaries or function like a normal person. She would more than likely to be glad to be rid of her family and having a new place would be a dream to her. No more rules etc. Is it possible to send her away someplace until she is finished with High School? What kind of grades does she get? She can do a lot more damage to your family in a year.

Does she ever threaten to leave now that she is close to 18? Psychopaths are parasites, she will find people to support her. It will be very hard on your wife and you are fortunate to still have the rest of your family intact. A lot of families don't survive intact or in agreement that something needs to be done.

Being a parent of a Psychopath must be one of the worst places to be in life. No matter what you do she will never change. It sounds like you have tried everything under the sun. I am very sorry for you and your family, I also am greatly concerned about your other children as long as she is in the home.

Di

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#11755 - 09/12/11 07:14 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
planetchildren Offline
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Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46

Please remember that what seems harsh to you is just that. It will only be harsh to you and your wife. A Psychopath won't feel this as a normal child would feel and hurt. I believe they learn to act hurt and display phony emotions that they have seen their siblings do. There is nothing harsh about saving yourself and your family from a Psychopath.

I know she is your daughter, but if you have come to the realization that she is a Psychopath, what else can you do? My daughter-in-law does not love her own son. This was so hard for me to accept. So, if I believe this, I believe that your daughter doesn't and can't love you or her mother or siblings. I see that my daughter-in-law does not love her own family. She lies to them and manipulates them to get whatever she wants.

A couple of years ago, there was an incident. My grandson was with me and his mother called. He did not want to talk to her. I told her he would call her later...he did not want to talk. She showed up at my front door screaming and banging on the door. My neighbor saw and heard her. He told her to get the hell out of there. I called her mother and told her that I would have her daughter arrested if she did not leave. Her mother replied that she, the Psychopath did not have me arrested when I did what I did. I had no idea what she was talking about. The Psychopath told her parents that when she and my son divorced that I had helped my son steal money from her account. OMG! I was shocked to say the least.

Now I realize why the Psychopath did it. She wanted her parents to think she had no money. This way they would give her money, and I'm sure they did.

You are doing the right thing by your family. Think of their futures.

My way of thinking has changed since I've been on the forum. I'm so thankful that reality has set in with me. It has given me the ability to fight for my grandson. I have, as SOP said, one of the most critical tools to fight with. I have the knowledge that I am dealing with a Psychopath. So do you. Once you understand that, you are more likely to make decisions based on fact and not feelings.

There is no easy way to deal with it. I say what I do to hopefully enlighten you. I really hope things work out for your family and you find peace.

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#11756 - 09/13/11 03:31 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Thanks for the support again. I guess since my daughter said, "You just lost a daughter", and I have honored that, she felt the need to contact her 14 year old sister by text message. She did this after the 14y/o should have been in bed for school. The 14y/o got the message while getting ready for bed and promptly let me know. She had already answered. My older girl asked for contact. She said that she missed her and wanted to know what was going on in her life. She wanted to have sisterly talks. She also mentioned that she knows "things will never be the same between me and mommy, and it's partly my fault". That girl had a wonderful childhood. We had lots of family time, went on hikes, played games outside (volleyball, frisbee, etc), rode bikes. She was involved in sports and activities that I took her to and helped coach or run some of them. We went on vacations. Extended family was close. She went to private schools. It was as close to ideal as you can get. I know many people say it takes two, and I know I wasn't a perfect mother (no one is), but I will accept no blame for my relationship with her. Before I began to shut her out, I gave her SO many chances. I defended her for so many things. I must have looked foolish. I was her human punching bag (not literally). So, I guess from all this, you can tell that she got to me again by getting to her sister. Her sister just tries to block it out. She told me about the text, but doesn't want to talk about it. I told her that we would talk about it today. That there is a reason her sister acts the way she does. I need my 14y/o to know the truth now. I don't want her to think it might have been my fault, or something that she did. I guess I have to change my 14y/o number.

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#11757 - 09/13/11 04:15 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Hi Monroe,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but it was so nice to hear from someone else with a daughter that is a Psychopath. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but to hear from someone in my shoes, is incredible. My daughter didn't get bad until the second half of her senior year in high school. My goal was also to get her to graduate. I didn't realize that her problem was anything more than just teenage rebellion, although it seemed severe. It just didn't make sense, no one else I knew had a teenager act nearly as bad as her. Things went downhill fast! Everyone is right when they say to get her out. I don't know if you can do it, it took me until I just couldn't take things anymore. Even then, it was basically her choice. I set rules and told her if she couldn't accept them, she wasn't welcome in our home. She broke them, severely, and knew she was out. She always had a guy to stay with. In my mind, it was all planned in her mind. She would act good enough until she had a place to go, then she didn't care, because the guy would take her in.

It's so hard not having my daughter here. A piece of me is missing, but it was a daily hell when she was home. That was much worse!!! I feel sad for what I thought I had (loving daughter), but it is nothing compared to the constant what our family went through on a daily basis. I don't worry about her, because I don't know what she's doing. She has a place to live. My biggest fear is that she will mess up this relationship and come to us with fake remorse and tears.

My husband gave up on her long ago. I guess I was much like your wife. I couldn't give up on my daughter. She would come to her senses. Now, I can't even discuss my older daughter with my husband. I think he's too hurt. He wants to block it out, and I need to talk. It's not good. I have friends to talk to about it, but I try not to do it too much.

My 14y/o seems to see my side. I just hope that years down the road I don't get blamed for keeping the sisters apart. She has seen enough of what her sister has done. Some I've hidden from her, but now I think I should tell her everything.


I wish you the best of luck dealing with this. If you have any questions about my experience or want to vent about yours, just write it. I'm not hiding anymore. I feel bad for you. No parents should have to go through this.

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#11758 - 09/13/11 06:42 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
planetchildren Offline
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Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46

Dear momminus 1 and Monore,

I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this. My heart goes out to you because I have two children and two grandchilden. Having to deal with this for 15 years has been a a nightmare. All we wanted to do was love her when she and my son married. But, she wanted no part of it.

Planetchildren

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#11759 - 09/13/11 06:57 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
Loc: United States
Thanks momminus1, please do change your daughters text message #, it is vital, she is young and even when you explain things to her which is a good idea, then letting your daughter contact her will be problems, they may even develop some sort of pact. Psychopaths isolate as part of their method of operation, changing your daughters # and putting a block on your other daughters #, I assume you can do this with the new phones. How about having the talk with your daughter and then go buy her the newest and greatest phone gadget with the condition that you will have her sister blocked from contacting her? Go shopping with her and let her pick out one every young person would love to have. Keep the communication open with your daughter and don't think that a block on her number is the magic trick, your daughter may find out the new # and you need your daughters trust to tell you and will have to change it again. If it continues I would consider finding out about harassment via text. A good lawyer could scare her to her senses. I know it sounds drastic but nothing is too drastic to stop her from communicating with your daughter, she is still young and impressionable. Isolation is a key factor in how a Psychopath operates, they thrive on it.

I guess you are now in the new phase of protecting her from any influence from her sister. Her sister will have nothing nice to say about you and will be the victim in her own mind and try to influence your daughter in her sick game and will cause great conflict in your younger daughter if she is allowed to contact her. If your daughter succeeds in isolating your daughter you won't know when the texting is happening and what it is all about. A well socialized Psychopath knows how to twist things and would like nothing better than to isolate your daughter from you.

Di

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#11760 - 09/13/11 09:53 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
This thread is really making me think. I know my dad left home when he was 15 or 16 years old, and lived 'on the road'. He told me so.

I'm now thinking he was maybe made to leave, as by that stage he had already assaulted his own sister and she had his child. Things must have been pretty intolerable for the rest of them.

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#11762 - 09/13/11 03:30 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
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Thanks for sharing Starry, makes sense they would have wanted him out of the house.

Just as an FYI, the software has the capability if you want to read other members posts just click on their name and their list of posts will appear.

Di

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#11763 - 09/14/11 11:05 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
I did read through some of the older posts, thanks for pointing that out, Dianne. They have been helpful and enlightening. Thank you all for contributing here.

My psych daughter (17, HS senior) told my wife this AM that she was either thinking about or planning to go to a nearby community college for two years before going away to college. I had briefed my wife, since my daughter had originally mentioned this possibility to me, so my wife was prepared with the same message I delivered, fortunately. We both work and drive kids - so we're not always in perfect sync until we have time to catch each other up! The topic came up with her because college night is coming up at her HS, and my wife had offered to take her. I know that my daughter has given this A LOT of thought, despite mentioning it almost in passing to us. She has a plan.

So, our moving-out conversation with her appears to be converging on us earlier than I'd expected. It would be tonight, but my wife is out of town and I'm at a parent/teacher thing. I've decided to discuss this only with my wife present, as my daughter will try to turn us against each other, and state one of us made a commitment, etc. Our marriage, by the way, has not been eroded by this/her, but stress levels very high.

We will, of course, tell our daughter why she cannot live here beyond next August. In fact, I plan to tell her she is always subject to removal from the house (in reality, this earlier removal would be hard for us for a number of reasons, even as it is hard to have her in the home). This will be an obscenity-laden scream fest, with accusations and denials. Possibly ending with the tears and artificial remorse we've seen before - if she actually believes she is trapped in the situation. I'm not sure why staying is more attractive to her, yet... She could probably get accepted into a good school, and there are plenty of potential victims everywhere. She's not afraid of much, so I don't yet get that.

I would like to tell her we believe that she is a psychopath, and hold her behaviors against the definition. After all, it's an identical match. But I read here (could not find it just now) that the approach can be counter-productive, or ineffective. Any thoughts?

I know that most/all of you contributors believe we should remove her from the family now/soon in the interests of my younger kids (thank you for your candid thoughts). We may end up there if we cross a sustained line of intolerability (we've been there), or in the event of potential physical injury.

On another tangent...my daughter wrote in her journal/diary (I copied it) that "sometimes she wants to hurt" my wife. For me "he's just so stupid". I also read about her stealing and planned manipulation of summer job co-workers, boys, etc. It was quite a "window"... It would be great for her to spend a couple nights in jail, she's 18 soon...
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Monroe

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#11764 - 09/14/11 12:23 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Monroe, I honestly don't think it would make any difference to her if she were in jail or not.

I spent a lot of time seriously considering if I should prosecute my dad and see if I could get him put away for what he did to me (actually, it wouldn't be about the end result, as considering the state of the legal system he would probably be found not guilty. It would be more about me having the chance to speak and for others to hear my voice and my story, without the fear of being quite literally gagged or be in fear for my life).

But I realised that he doesn't think like me (or any 'normal' person). Any 'normal' person would see being sent to prison as a punishment, and it would pain them to be separated from their loved ones and their everyday life.

For my dad it would just be access to a whole load of new people to manipulate. He wouldn't miss his loved ones, because he doesn't have any 'loved ones'. He wouldn't miss his everyday life, as all throughout his life he's just dropped things and disappeared once things have gotten a bit tricky for him. He wouldn't view it as a punishment, as he believes he's above the law. He wouldn't see it as a black mark against his character as he doesn't care, he plays by different rules.

Now, please believe me when I say this wasn't an easy decision to make. And I'm still wracked with guilt, because for as long as he's on the outside world, he's hurting people. I know what he's doing. And I dread to think if having the weight of someone's life on my conscience (total starvation is one of his favourite tactics).

But my counsellor tells me I've not to take responsibility for his actions. If he chooses to go on hurting people, that's his decision. I'm not responsible for his decisions and his actions. My counsellor tells me I have to think of myself, of my own wellbeing, and that that comes before anything else.

Hope some of that makes sense. Sorry for the situation you find yourself in. I understand how stressful it must be.

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#11765 - 09/14/11 12:43 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi Monroe, most of them are too slick to end up in jail and your daughter is what I would classify as a highly socialized Psychopath.

I would be very concerned over what she wrote about your wife. I am however very happy that you and your wife are working as a team.

Psychopaths are parasites and your family home is a convenient plan from what I can guess. She will no doubt move on and find others to support her. I doubt her goals for college include education because Psychopaths know it all anyways. I suspect it is just to have a free ride by living at home until she can hatch a plan to latch onto someone else.

Be prepared she may just say she disowns you for being lousy parents and why stay. That would give you a perfect out and not have to spend another destructive year with her in your presence. Sounds harsh but that is the reality. Like momminus1 said, her daughter made the decision she wasn't her mother. I would recommend having a recorder hidden in the room so you and your wife can listen to the "conversation" later with clear heads when she has a anger driven fit. Psychopaths don't like being told what the rules are and it would be good to have something to listen to together and base your decision on what she says and how she reacts with words etc.

What will you do if she breaks loose and says you aren't her parents, are you ready to say, okay, how about if we get you an apartment that will be paid for a couple of months that she signs up for. Do not put anything in your name, even her car, if you want her to leave with a car make sure it is in her name before letting her have it.

She is cooking something up, they all do. If you think her plan is to stay at home just to be a parasite, then comes the next decision, if she disowns you or gets really wicked be prepared for your next move. Think of it as a chess game, you can be sure she is going to go on the attack when you tell her she is going to move out, she may just want it on her terms and be glad to be rid of you.

My best guess it will be an ugly scene so I would make sure your other children are out of the house spending the night someplace else for your talk with her.

Di

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#11766 - 09/14/11 01:49 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Diane, I got goosebumps reading your last response. That was my daughter exactly, the disowning, the college(for a month, then into her 25 y/o boyfriend's parents' house), the anger at me in particular-nasty things said and written), and saying that she didn't like our rules and couldn't live here. Exactly alike!

The block is now on my daughter's phone, but before I got it done, I received text messages from my oldest daughter telling me nasty things. She said that she talked to my aunt and that my aunt agrees with her. I find this hard to believe, but my aunt is a busy body, so I'm guessing the 2 of them at least talked. My aunt is 85 and I'm afraid of what I'll say to her, so I won't call her and ask until I can control my emotions. If she sided with my daughter at all, I am deeply hurt, but I know my daughter is convincing, she fooled me. Other texts said how she doesn't love the mom I've become, and that I'll regret how I'm treating her someday. She still has no apology and said that she really didn't do anything that bad. For some reason, I am the focus of her attacks. I was the person closest to her, or so I thought. Maybe they attack the ones they're closest with.

I would like to know if it's a good or bad idea to let her know that I think she's a psychopath. I won't contact her, but this is something that I've been wondering.

It's horrible to say, and I feel guilty and ashamed, but I hope i don't hear from my daughter in a long time. There is such peace when I haven't heard from her. Receiving those texts was horrible, and it reminded me of how it was to live with her.

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#11767 - 09/14/11 01:53 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, when my 14 y/o and I received those texts yesterday, my mama bear instinct came out. My oldest was NOT going to harm or influence my youngest.

As for your daughter moving out, you will reach your limit, and then you won't have any hesitations. You'll be ready.

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#11768 - 09/14/11 01:56 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Yes, she is slick. But she described in her journal how she had stolen something and was confronted in the parking lot recently by the store manager. What was creepy wasn't reading about my daughter stealing, but her self-admiration at how calmly she told the "idiot" that she had thrown her receipt away, but of course had bought the item. If stealing has become chronic, I believe she may get caught. She is an incredibly bold but convincing liar.

I don't think she will view moving out as in her interests now. She won't leave (I think), but I expect the dynamic will here change. No pretending we're a family, she may treat her room as an apartment. If we convince her that our stated boundaries are real, I expect she will stay close enough to our rules to them to stay in the house for 11 months - until we begin to approach her move-out date, when things could get ugly.

I moved with her out of the house last summer (a year ago) for three weeks when we felt she could not be around our other kids. It was right before we admitted her to the eating disorder hospital. Renting a remote house an hour away was expensive and incredibly inconvenient for me. It was before I thought she was a psychopath, by the way. I could not understand at the time why she did not appreciate the gravity of what we had done. The lengths we would go to to contain her damage. She assessed her new surroundings and took it in stride. She couldn't dominate me, and we were on a farm in the middle of nowhere. For her, it was what it was. That was when I remember noticing those cold dark stares when I was at my computer from across the room. When I looked back she didn't look away or blink. We had entered her into the hospital because the (wonderful) Dr. agreed to remove her from the house, not because of the eating disorder...

I do think she wants to go to college, I believe she feels she will command more respect. And everyone goes to college from her HS, she would be humiliated not to go. You're right though, she does not have much she feels she needs to learn.

We will record it, thanks Dianne.

Momminus, I'll read back through your posts, I know you have a 14 yr old, but your psychopath daughter is older I believe, and seemed more "equipped" in any event, for moving out. Our's, I think, doesn't have the tools yet, and she knows it. She's getting there, but her sphere has been only her school, family, and the pool where she lifeguards so far.

I'll let you know, but her next move in the chess game (my speculation, but with some confidence) is to try to get us to change our minds about letting her stay after she graduates from HS. If I'm right, there may be a short medium-term benefit in the atmosphere at home. If I'm wrong, then I'll need help with a Plan B.

My other two kids have developed some immunity to most of the disturbing things that go on. So not much would shock them. And they do stand up to my psych daughter sometimes. The psych always manages the last word, she is incapable of being one-upped.
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Monroe

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#11769 - 09/14/11 02:21 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Momminus Maximus

I wonder this too: "I would like to know if it's a good or bad idea to let her know that I think she's a psychopath. I won't contact her, but this is something that I've been wondering."

I think you're right (your last post re: 2 texts). I will know when we're at or above the tipping point. I hope and pray my daughter isn't capable of doing physical harm. I think she understands the consequences. Jail would be uncomfortable and inconvenient for her, at a minimum. She must know that.

Do you really think that your aunt agrees with her?? I suspect your daughter spun the facts, and if not, she's lying about your aunt agreeing. The more time I spend reading through this forum, the more I realize that the traits and behaviors of the psychopath fall into a relatively narrow band. Not much variability. And my daughter lies about what I supposedly agreed to even when she talks to my wife - as if my wife won't confirm w/ me! In the unlikely event your aunt is siding with your daughter, it's because she does not have the facts. I would not be hurt, personally, in that situation knowing what I've read about your daughter.

Re: apologies; I realized a while back I would never receive an apology for anything from my daughter. I hope you are not waiting for one.

I'm genuinely sorry if you feel guilty and ashamed. You can take pride in who your 14 yr old has become, and how strong you have been in this situation. Nobody can be prepared or trained for what we are experiencing. The more time I spend reading about people's experiences here, the more at peace I've become with myself as a Dad. And I am coming to view my role as a co-protector of my family, instead of responsible for my psych daughter's "turnaround" - that has sucked me away from my family for several years now. Cause, I know now the turnaround is just not going to happen.

Don't allow yourself to be hurt by your daughter, Momminus, and be the best chess player you can be for yourself and your 14 yr. old.
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Monroe

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#11770 - 09/14/11 03:38 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Personally I wouldn't tell a Psychopath that they are one. They will put that in their arsenal and when bad mouthing what lousy parents you are that you called her one and in most people's minds they conjure up an axe swinging lunatic.

There is no defending yourself against whoever they get on "their side". They are too many steps ahead of you and defending yourself will only harm you. You have nothing to defend. Just come up with some standard comments like, I am sorry she feels that way and drop the subject, don't defend something you never did, you have to just ignore it, you know the truth and that is just the way they operate, defending yourself just will cause you more stress. Keep in mind they see the nice sweet side so your version of the story is better kept out of the conversation. It is how they get their buzz by isolating people so if they isolate those close to you there is little you can do by trying to defend what an evil Psychopath is saying. Hold you head up high and remember you have to protect yourself and your children. She is a cunning Psychopath and she will survive just fine, it is the survival of your family that is at hand here. You are just a place to live until something better comes along. Having the rest of the family in the presence of pure evil will impact your other children. YOU are the only protection they have from her. If the sky is blue a Psychopath will claim it is dark and cloudy, there is nothing too big or small they will lie about.

Any person who is a Psychopath doesn't have a conscience that is what divides us from them, I would put nothing past them. Remember Scott Peterson do you think Lacey ever thought he would murder her and their unborn son and dump her in the ocean?

I truly believe they are capable of anything. The cold looks are when the "mask drops" and the true evil is showing. I imagine Scott Peterson snapped and dropped his mask when he murdered his lovely wife and unborn child. He was a highly socialized Psychopath, imo, you can see by how his parents protected him and stood up for him and even after the murder they were wicked to Lacey's family.

The old saying fighting fire with fire doesn't work, defending yourself will consume you and you will never be free or have a happy life as long as pure evil is in your environment.

Monroe, you are able due to her age to decide what is best for your family and it sounds like a year would be a tremendous strain and cause long term harm to your other children and your relationships with them. Don't let her suck the love out of you that your other children need by keeping them in any contact with such evil chaos. She will never change and yes, they don't apologize -ever.

I recently sat in on closing arguments at a murder trial of a young man who was clearly a Psychopath, he took the stand and admitted to stabbing her twice (although there were many more stabs and she was murdered) and told the jury he did it because she deserved it, that in a nutshell is how they think. They are and always will be the victim. How much arrogance does that take to actually take the stand and say something like that to the jury? He was a non socialized Psychopath so I am sure his attorneys would have advised him to not take the stand but his arrogance couldn't stop him. That is how the mind of a Psychopath works. In their minds they are always the victim and will never apologize, they might shed some tears but if you really watch they aren't tears but an act to look like they are showing emotion.

Instead of a recorder, put a nanny cam in the room when you meet with your daughter to capture it on film also, they are cheap, just google nanny cams. Then you and your wife can also observe her actions along with her words. I think it might shock you to see it when you are not part of the action but later have it to review her physical reactions and eyes. Then decide is this the person I want my children to spend the next year being exposed to?

Di

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#11771 - 09/15/11 03:34 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Dianne, I know that my decision should seem clear - move her out now.

I don't yet see how I can realistically move a not-quite 18 year old, who has spent only one of the last three summers "free" (due to being admitted to 3 month treatment centers) out of our house and expect her to survive. We have not allowed her to drive much, although she has a permit. She could not work, pay rent and finish HS. She would be out of the house, but she would be fully dependent on us. She is resourceful, but she wouldn't have a chance.

As a HS grad, she could work work the hours necessary to pay rent and make a car payment while in a community college. Or go to a college far from our home. The long term outcome seems like a better one to me. She would be independent (of us).

Momminus said: "As for your daughter moving out, you will reach your limit, and then you won't have any hesitations. You'll be ready." If she pushes us over the limit sooner, I think I'll be able - emotionally and rationally - to accelerate the process and move her out. She may very well take the situation there. But it doesn't feel justified at this point. I know who she is now, which allows me to contain her damage at home, or at least I've convinced myself of that. I could be weak, and copping out, time will tell.

Thanks for your counsel and conviction on this, Dianne.
_________________________
Monroe

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#11772 - 09/15/11 04:06 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
I think one of the things I was shocked at with my dad, was when I finally began to understand the scale of the damage he had caused.

For a long time, many many years, I thought I was responsible for what he did, and I thought I had caused it, and that it was therefore limited to me.

Now I understand that it is simply the way that he operates in the world. There is not one 'relationship' he has which is untouched by his way of being. He is always, always, always, on the look out for prey. He is always, always, always searching, assessing, calculating, testing, discarding, starting to look over again. Like some animal of prey, he is always seeking out the next victim.

He started when he was a teenager and hasn't stopped since. I thought I knew my dad, but over the past few years I've discovered some pretty shocking stuff about him and the sheer extent of the damage that he's caused.

If you met him? Oh yeah, I betcha you'd be taken in by him, because of his appearance and the vibe he gives off. Small, wiry, underfed, dressed like a tramp, sounds clapped out by drugs and takes half an hour to get a sentence out. You'd think this person was a bit eccentric, but basically harmless. It's a facade. A very carefully calculated facade. It's the one that works for him. And believe me, it works a treat.

They reveal to you only what they want to reveal to you, only what is useful to them.

Sorry if this sounds a bit shocking and I don't mean it to be hurtful. It's just these sorts of people operate in an entirely different way to you and I, and I don't think you can contain the damage because damage and destruction is what they're all about. It's their reason for living.

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#11773 - 09/15/11 06:19 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
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Hi Monroe,

Quote:
I could be weak, and copping out, time will tell.


Please, you are not any of those things, you are a very good parent and this all must be so overwhelming to process.

There are options, if things get too unbearable, you could set up a trust to pay for her rent while she finishes HS, many options.

Quote:
As a HS grad, she could work work the hours necessary to pay rent and make a car payment while in a community college
Yes she could, but would she really? Taking the hard road to accomplish this usually isn't how they survive, that is how we survive but we are different.

She is much stronger than you think. I never had parents like those here and they would have been a dream to have. I was booted due to all the family dynamics, alcoholic father, personality disordered mother etc. and had to make it on my own, it took taking a couple of jobs but I survived and actually made a successful career with no guidance.

Many times, well actually most times the Psychopathic personality "shows" signs of weakness, not being able to make it, that is part of how they see themselves as victims. Underneath all that my guess is she is one tough cookie just based on how brazen she was when caught shoplifting as a minor example.

Monroe, we are on your side and it is never easy after studying victims and their path of destruction for so many years, I won't ever try to kid you that this is even easy to say to anyone involved with a Psychopath.

I never really had a father do to his issues with alcoholism, we never had any attention or given hope or the idea of college was never even mentioned. I know I am probably much older than you but if I had the chance to adopt a father it would be you;)

You will do things in their own time and I admire all of the thinking and discussing you are doing. For over 14 years, we rarely had parents coming through with such depth along with children, now adults raised by Psychopaths. Your words are reaching many that you will never know, they are not able to come to terms with posting their stories. In helping your family you are also helping many more than you can imagine.

We are all here to support you no matter what your decision is we will be here to lend an ear through this difficult time. She will be in your heart and life for many years to come so take your time and like momminus1 says, you will know in your heart when the time is right.

I hope you do have a camera for the "talk", it will give you something to look back on and see that whatever the outcome is you tried your best.

Di

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#11774 - 09/15/11 07:41 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, I was where you are, 2 years ago. My daughter didn't get really bad until January of her senior year. She was only 17 (she has a summer birthday) and I wanted her to graduate from high school and go to college. I knew something was wrong then, but I thought she was just a rebellious teen and a compulsive liar. I felt trapped. Don't feel bad about yourself for letting her stay, or kicking her out. Our (yours and mine) situation is just so horrible. This is actually the 4th time that she has been kicked out. I thought this information might help you. The first 2 times, I wanted her to come back. I thought she'd realize what she'd done. She got more and more clever each time. The first time she was gone only for 2 days. When she came home, we would only let her into an outbuilding on our property for another 2 days. Then we let her in the house. She left for college at the end of September. There was guy after guy and not going to class. She called in tears after a month saying that she missed us and college wasn't for her. I picked her up. She lasted a week at home. The outbursts started, she wouldn't come home at might, she wouldn't answer her cell phone. I told her if she was going to act like that, she was out. That's when she moved in with her 25 year old boyfriend and his parents. She called in tears at the beginning of December saying that he cheated on her (It wasn't right of him, but he found out about several guys that she'd been with) and can she move back home where she is loved. I thought that once again, she had come to her senses. She was only home for 2 weeks when she said she was going out with a friend but we caught her with the 29 y/o from her old work place. She was forbidden to have contact with him. That was a deal breaker. After 2 days, she called in tears saying how she couldn't believe how she messed up. She wants help, wants to straighten her life out. She wanted me to check her facebook, check her cell phone, make any rule I wanted. She just wanted to stop messing up. I told her that was her last chance. I meant it! It turns out that she was lying from day one again! She had another phone to contact people and I think a fake name facebook. When I realized everything in May, she was done. She now had her 40 year old bf to live with.
I just want you to know that it took me so long to get to this point, so don't put yourself down. I would have felt bad about myself had I done things before i was ready. I am more than sure now, though! Time will tell with you. You'll have to see how your situation deteriorates. You'll know, though.

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#11775 - 09/15/11 09:35 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Wow, thank you Momminus. That is so valuable, and I'm so sorry, geez. The parental instinct is so powerful, and our respective girls know and count on that, of course.

We took our Psychopath daughter's phone away because of inappropriate texts we found sent in the middle of the night. Gave it back during the day, and eventually discovered she had switched out the SIM card with another phone. Took her computer and she used my wife's at night in the basement. Tips of her iceberg, of course.

We caught her in a car in front of our house late at night or early AM. Long story short, she accused the boy of forcing her to perform oral sex. We believed her at the time, although I couldn't reconcile that with her sneaking out into his car. She was 16 and he was 18, so it could have been a problem for the boy if we'd pursued it. Here's the thing...the boy was my wife's boss's SON, who lives .5 miles away. I know this sounds too incredible, but of all the boys to experiment with... My wife and her boss were getting different stories, I'm sure, and we both sort of let the incident slide eventually. My daughter was OK with us throwing the boy under the bus at the time, and I was so angry at the boy (what part of "no" did he not understand). We've since found that the boy is gay, and suspect that our daughter set him up. Not sure why I mention that, there have been so many bizarre incidents. Could she have intentionally tried to destroy my wife's job/career, or was it just being oblivious when she picked him? Who knows.

Like your daughter, mine lies about anything and shrugs when we find out. Last week she said she was going skating with friends from her pool. We didn't believe it for one minute, but she would be out of the house so we were OK with it. Next day I checked her pockets and found - a receipt from a skating rink!! My wife and I had to laugh. So she actually has the capacity to tell the truth once in a while!

What your last post really reinforced for me is - when we decide to move her out of the house, I will (try) to be prepared for the finality of it. Of course I will want to take her back, and I may have to convince my wife - maybe not though. I'm sure she will want to come back when she runs into a roadblock.

I kept the letters she wrote us asking us to bring her back home when she had been at each of the treatment centers. The most recent time we took her out against the advice of the psychologist. It was a heart wrenching and long letter, convincing. What she would do when she got home, how she would behave, what we could count on. She had also found God, and He would help. We're not very religious, which made it all the more genuine to us. She reverted back in 24 hours and we were all back in a black hole with her for the rest of that summer.
_________________________
Monroe

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#11776 - 09/16/11 12:30 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
I've been thinking about the lying, and about education.

I'm wondering if it really matters to psychopaths if they have legitimately earned a qualification? What I mean is, there is a lot of work involved in earning any sort of qualification, particularly discipline and a delayed gratification (work had now and earn your qualification at a later date). Those are two things that run counter to a psychopath's way of thinking. I'm not talking about intelligence here, as I think some of them are highly intelligent. I mean the sheer humdrum, nose to the grindstone, every day slog of it.

If you need a qualification for something then why not just lie and say you have it? Or obtain it by bypassing the system in some way? Or by cheating? I've seen this first hand, not just in my dad, but someone I worked for in an academic setting who I twigged pretty quickly was a psychopath (thanks to my experience with my dad). Yes, it's audacious and shocking, but then these people are. Who would think to double check? Most people are basically honest. Yes, 'normal' people might embellish their resumes slightly, but wouldn't bare facedly make stuff up.

Or if you need to be seen to be 'going to college', then why not just lie about that as well? I know my dad did this too.

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#11777 - 09/16/11 03:00 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
That makes sense, I don't know. Aren't psychopaths found in every walk of life, which would require a broad distribution of educated and non? I don't know for a fact about every walk of life.... Your question makes sense though Starry, why would they go?

My wife was to have met my daughter at her HS to meet with college counselors last night, then have dinner with other parents and classmates. My daughter was over an hour late, and had not submitted any of the required paperwork. She's not planning on going! Starry, I don't think she sees the point! I would never have expected this to begin to play out this way... My wife was livid, she had come back from a trip early to do this.

Starry, when you wrote that your Dad starved you, I know from reading your posts that he quite literally did that. Did he starve you in other ways, if you don't mind? And, control over people - that is a common attribute of these people, correct? Did your father and what he did make it difficult for you to develop relationships, or trust people? Whatever you don't mind sharing.

I bought Children Without a Conscience on eBay last night. Anyone know of a better book, and will "Children" help with my understanding?
_________________________
Monroe

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#11778 - 09/16/11 03:34 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, the parental instinct is very powerful! I NEVER thought there would be ANYTHING that could make me do this. It's been years and years of things, as well as the day to day things, that have worn me down and made me realize what she's doing to us all, and that even I (her mom) can only take so much. As you can probably see, just from my all my writings, we gave many chances.

In the last texts that my 19y/o sent to my 14y/o's phone, she said that my aunt basically agreed with her. I know my aunt is a nosy busy body. I finally got up the nerve to call her. My aunt and uncle (who is a quiet man and does whatever my aunt says) actually drove an hour to see my daughter at her place of employment. I asked my aunt the outcome of the conversation. She told me that my daughter started crying. My aunt(and she says my uncle) believes that it takes two. Nothing is one sided. That's all she would say. Oh, she also said that a mom doesn't cut off her own daughter. I told her that sometimes it is one-sided. I tried to tell her that we've been through a daily hell for years and she had no idea what it took me to get to this point. My daughter got to her. I never told my aunt all the things that my daughter did, partly because it was embarrassing and partly because it was none of her business. I'm hurt and it has hurt our extended family. Holidays consist of my immediate family, my parents, my sister's family, and my aunt and uncle (my mom's sister). My mom feels stuck.

I feel like this will never end. Make sure that your daughter can't influence anyone that you care about. This has been hard been enough on me, without people judging me.

You mentioned inappropriate things on the phone. I actually found porn type pictures on my 19y/o's phone that were sent to 4 guys. We took her phone and she got a smart phone ( that we weren't aware of at first) that wasn't on a plan, but was wifi capable. Through the wifi she got a texting application. She was able to contact guys that she wasn't supposed to be seeing. They will find ways. It's like a challenge to them. She has to beat me. It's like a game to her.

I just hope that I don't fall for her tears again. I feel like I won't, but I know my motherly instinct. I fell almost cold now, so for now, I am strong.

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#11779 - 09/16/11 03:56 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Starry, I most definitely think they would fake their credentials. I know my daughter really thinks she knows everything about the field that she's interested in. She feels college is a waste of time and if someone would just give her a chance in her field, she could succeed. She also has such big goals, but does absolutely nothing to achieve them.

Her boyfriend supposedly has a masters degree in philosophy, yet works in retail because he doesn't want to teach. I'm doubting the degree. He's 40 and she's 19.

It really makes me wonder how many others are out there? I find myself wondering about people now. I don't like it at all.

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#11780 - 09/16/11 06:00 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Loc: United States
The sad part is we don't know how many of them are out there. They toss around a 1 - 3 or so % number but all those numbers came from prison studies. There is some new research coming about to find out more about those amongst us but how easy is that going to be. Since 1 out of 3 prisoners are Psychopaths (non socialized ones) ie. not well educated and smart enough to stay out of prison. Finding inmates to interview who are Psychopaths is like shooting fish in a barrel. And how could anyone believe what they say since lying is part of their pathology.

I attended a conference for Psychopath "experts" and frankly was quite stunned. You can read in the Resource Section Psychopath Checklist Debate the wrangling to study those outside the prison population. I applaud the efforts to bring about new information but really how easy is it going to be in order to study the socialized ones around us, a big part of their pathology is lying so I don't see how we will ever know.

One of my burning questions has always been how many victims etc. can a Psychopath hurt or destroy in their lifetime? The sheer numbers based on multiple partners, how they blend into society, isolate others etc. must be a staggering number the havoc and harm only one Psychopath can cause in a lifetime. I did a poll a long time ago asking the community how many people a Psychopath will harm in their lifetime and the response was an overwhelming "too many to count".

I wish I could sugar coat it but the next step for parents even if you don't disconnect, they will convince everyone what a lousy deal that got from their family. They are always the victims, you can hand them a plate of gold but they will seek to destroy any goodness and turn it to their advantage. They isolate people by their "convincing lies", that I why I say, hold your head up high, you have nothing to defend. A lot of people will be taken in and told awful things about you, that is just the harsh reality of how a Psychopath operates.

I think each generation gets craftier and harder to pick out until you have "psychodar".

It doesn't take much looking around at those that did get their education and rose to power. Do these politicians who actually think more money to the rich while stripping away our social services with an axe and want to cut every dime away to help even have decent schools or food for the poor, does that sound like someone with a conscience? I was stomped to the ground by a Psychopath in a business deal. I sued to retain my stolen work, I could barely read the depositions. The lies this person got other to believe abut me were so outrageous. She was new to the organization yet she was able to convince people who had known me for my entire career. I see them everywhere and no I am not paranoid but they display that one thing we have and they don't is they don't have a conscience.

If other people "get it" the situation is rare. Thanks to the "Ted Bundy" effect if you try to convince someone what you are dealing with and use the term Psychopath that is the quickest route to shut them down from wanting to hear about your situation, the word itself in the public's mind that most good people can't grasp the true evil of a Psychopath. Psychopaths are masters at manipulation and isolating. I suffered for years from the betray of people who knew better but believed the Psychopath. I finally cut them all out of my life and moved as far away as I could.

Know in your own heart that you did nothing wrong and learn to extract yourself from the sure he** of the things people will say to you and blame you for the situation. I tried to defend myself and it was a move I will never make again, you can't defend something you never did or had a part in, I tried. I was wounded and in disbelief that it was really happening and those closest to me actually went along with this evil person.

If the event in your life trying to deal with a Psychopath is accepted by friends or family count yourself lucky, you will find the hard way who believes you. Don't waste your time or energy but focus on those in your family that need and can accept your love. Your only defense is to cut them out of your life and learn to live in the present moment or the I should have done this or that will eat you alive. They are experts on destroying everything in their path.

A business crushing deal with a Psychopath was trauma enough for my lifetime, I cry for parents who are going to take the heat for doing the right and healthy effort to remove a child, it must be a parents worse nightmare.

I am an eternal optomist but in the case of a Psychopath, there is noting that would ever convince me they will ever change, their brains are wired that way and nothing can be done to change anything but how to move forward and salvage what you have.

Protect yourself and know in your heart of hearts that none of their behavior toward you is justified or deserved.

Di

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#11781 - 09/16/11 06:54 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Thanks Diane. I just hope and pray that I don't lose my parents or my sister and her kids. Most of all I don't want to lose my other daughter. My husband can never be swayed. He said he's seen it for years.

I am so scared. Is there anything I can do to protect myself. Should I be telling the family everything she did so they know exactly how horrible she was/is?

You know, to the outsider, I do sound crazy. This is all crazy, but it's my reality now.

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#11786 - 09/16/11 08:47 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Dianne, even my wife - who agrees that our Psych daughter shows all the attributes - is struggling with the term Psychopath. And she continues to hold out some narrow optimism. e.g., when she hits bottom, gets tired of her destruction, matures, etc. If I told one of my neighbors, they would keep their kids inside. To bad that the condition carries the ax-wielding stigma you referred to earlier due to the high incidence of violence among the group. But then, we need to recognize that potential in them...

A friend recently had a down syndrome baby and asked me to join a fundraiser. He said that condition is one of the most under-funded in terms of public/private research and support in the US. Other than prison, are resources being invested in the research of psychopathology? This was interesting - a computer chip to replace the "bad" part of the brain! (it's 30 or so minutes long, fyi), and I'm sure you've seen this Dianne:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-823054058647438214
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Monroe

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#11787 - 09/16/11 09:01 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Momminus

Dianne wrote that (I hope I'm not mis-representing) that we shouldn't feel the need to defend ourselves. I've reflected on that, and I agree, although I've felt the need to from time to time when my daughter has embarrassed me, or lied about what I or my wife have done to her, etc.

My mother blames my wife for my daughter, basically, but I have the support of one of my sisters who stood by how we've handled our daughter. But your situation seems much more fragile to me, given the success your daughter has had in manipulating your family and undermining you. I'll be interested in Dianne's perspective, but I would not suggest being overly proactive in defending yourself. Could it escalate the emerging friction, and make it more difficult for your family to see clearly what is really going on? If your daughter is the only one pointing the finger and accusing, eventually your family will see through her, perhaps. If they ask you if what your daughter has said is true, you can tell them the REAL truth...that everything you've done for your daughter, including the tough love, was done because she is your daughter and you've loved her. And that they have, as you said, been the most difficult things you've ever had to do. Your daughter will have her best chance of winning the chess game if you get down into the "she said, she said" weeds of hand-to-hand combat. That is her playing field, you want to play on yours, which has been grounded in love, hope and compassion.
_________________________
Monroe

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#11788 - 09/16/11 09:56 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
Loc: United States
Yes, I saw that, while it is interesting, the hard part would be to get them to even agree to the procedure since after all they all think they are the ones who are okay.

It is too bad with the fighting among the researchers they now have planted fear of having the Universities sued.

momminus1, the only way I can see to move forward is to stay neutral when people tell you what she says, it took years for me to find that neutral zone and I can imagine it is a million more times difficult as a parent. Engaging only fuels things, they don't get it and she is a million steps ahead of you. Most times whatever you say will get back to her and the beat will go on and you will be in her radar and in a constant state of defense. I hope you don't lose your loved ones over this but only time will tell. I lost everyone in my life along with every cent to fight it. My family didn't even understand, even though the project that was stolen was very successful, people believed that my partner and I had to be to blamed for being fired. Otherwise how could they imagine a successful program result in being fired unless we did something wrong to provoke it. Very twisted. You find out quickly who your friends are, I will never speak to any of those so called friends for the rest of my life, as a native Californian I left the State, moved to AZ for a few years and ended up staying longer to help my mom. I then threw a dart at the map and moved to the Midwest in an entirely new environment to find peace.

When they ask and they will, just take a breathe and say something neutral, at times you will break loose and forget and try to convince them but remember to keep coming back to the neutral place, it will be easier to do as time moves forward, not pleasant because you will want to yank their heads off to listen but trust me it won't work. In the end they may come around but the powerful spell and the lies of a Psychopath are hard to beat, we don't think like they do and who would want to. Like one of our members said, walking away is winning. However frustrating keep the word Psychopath out of any conversations with your child in the heat of an argument or others.

Monroe, the term is so hard for people to grasp the few people and I mean few people in my life don't even know I've had this support forum all these years. I got "the look" the first couple of times I mentioned it so I don't even bring it up.

If you watched the Casey Anthony trial you will see the extent of what evil is. I saw a clip the other day, her mother is clearly in denial and evidently thinks it would be a good idea for her to have another child, say what? I think the father, George is facing the cold hard truth but I don't see that marriage lasting long. A Psychopath on trial when they do get caught is something unreal, the smiling, the arrogance, watching the jail house video of her parents when she is banging her fists that she is the victim by being in jail made my stomach turn.

To see the power of their charm and lies, I studied these women who hook up with these monsters to try and understand what their psychology make up is. All the famous socialized ones or even the non socialized ones, even Ted Bundy find followers and many times these women marry them knowing they have committed horrific crimes against other women. I came up with 2 conclusions, they get hooked in by feeling sorry for this person (the I am the victim part), blame it on their background or believe the thug has found God. Who can forget those charming Menendez brothers. They murdered their own mother and kept firing as I recall they took the time to reload even as she was crawling next to death. Don't ever think any Psychopath is not capable of great harm. Most of them will stop at ripping your heart out but murder is always on the table when a person is lacking a conscience. Always remember they honestly see themselves as the victim and that is the main tool in their arsenal to extract revenge by turning others to their side.

There is something like from another world how they cast a spell on people.

I found this sleepy little town in the middle of no where because of being contacted by the DA who was prosecuting a murder trial and the defense claims it was because the poor guy was a Psychopath. It was interesting because non socialized Psychopaths have never interested me as much as the socialized ones, to be clear I am just as disturbed by their crimes. Talk about victims, this crime at the time was the largest mass murder in the country. You can't talk to a single person who wasn't related, knew the victims or suffered. It crippled a quiet nice place where people aren't in the habit of locking their doors. I even met the one main guys Dentist in a parking lot one day, I drive the only Volvo in town so when he started the conversation I always ask a few questions when the opening is there to do so graciously. I was given the opening and closing statements to review. I watched the video at the bank where the Psychopaths were there just killing people as they walked through the doors. They are all dangerous, we just don't hear more of the Casey Anthony types because they probably do kill but get away with it.

Rarely do I follow or educate myself on the non socialized ones anymore (I did for years), the socialized ones who are the most interest to me and the most dangerous in my mind. They don't use guns, they try to kill the spirit of others with their evil tactics.

If victims had great support systems from family and friends there would have been no reason for this forum to continue for all these years.

You know your neighbors would react that way so if any person would tell a Psychopath they knew they were one, just imagine what others they tell you called them that what their reaction would be, more likely than not it would be very effective at putting you in the crazy box. Neutral zone is the only way to survive, that tiny baby you brought home from the hospital came wired with Psychopath genes. Be thankful your eyes are open and will know how to protect your family.

One added note, when boxed in a corner many times a Psychopath will threaten suicide (the victim profile), it is only a scare tactic, I have yet to hear of one who did follow through or was really serious, it is just a look at what you have done to me that I must kill myself, don't take the bait. If they do threaten suicide, you can legally have them locked up in the nut ward here for a 72 hour hold but I not sure that is a wise move, it will only intensify their drama about what a victim they are.

Di

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#11789 - 09/16/11 10:23 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
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The most famous true crime writer Ann Rule has written several books about socialized Psychopaths Ann Rule's website She wrote the first book about Ted Bundy, she had sat next to him while as a volunteer at a support hot line.

I think the most chilling one I read was called Bitter Harvest, it was a couple who were both MD's and she was the Psychopath. If you look on Amazon you can get a cheap copy, worth the read to see how she "snaps" when he finally is ready to leave her, she lures him back and poisons him, he lived but I won't tell the story but she murdered her own children to get even.

Another socialized Psychopath story Too Late to say Good-Bye
This book is about the bizarre story of Dr. Barton Corbin, a Georgia dentist, and two women in his life--Dolly Hearn, a fellow dental student--and Jennifer Corbin, his wife. This promises to be one of the most remarkable and tangled stories Ann has ever told.

One other book that really gives you a full glimpse into the spell of a Psychopath is: If You Really Love Me by Ann Rule



Di


Edited by Dianne E. (09/16/11 10:57 AM)
Edit Reason: add book

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#11791 - 09/16/11 10:34 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
My brother knows what my dad did to me. And yet he's under our dad's spell.

I had a breakdown trying to explain it all to my brother, trying to convince him. The funny thing is, my brother believes me. And yet he's under our dad's spell.

I ended up having to walk away from my brother to try and save myself.

That was a good few years ago. I'm still recovering from the stress of it.

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#11792 - 09/16/11 10:40 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
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You are so right, Starry, the "spell" is one of the most fascinating aspects of how Psychopaths operate. They can take an intelligent, kind person and once under the "spell" it is a downright scary part of how they operate and how powerful it is.

Di

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#11793 - 09/16/11 10:46 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
The scary thing was that I was witness to it happening with my brother. I can describe exactly how my dad managed to get inside my brother's head (so I can work backwards and put together how it happened to me as a result).

The really frightening thing was how quickly, smoothly and well practised it was. Nothing of what my dad said missed the mark. Everything was perfectly judged and aimed. I think it took about 15 minutes form start to finish.

My brother ended up being like a ventriloquist's dummy, with my dad as the mouthpiece. I could hear my dad's voice coming through my brother. And let me tell you, my brother is no push over, he is very streetwise.

I had to cut my brother loose in order to save myself. It was one of the most difficult decisions I've ever made.

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#11807 - 09/17/11 08:25 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Momminus, putting your extended family aside (easier said than done, I recognize that is on your forefront now), has your home environment improved, become more tranquil and less stressful with your daughter out of the house? Has that not been a big positive for your 14 yr. old and you and your husband?

Also, you mentioned that your husband has seen her for what she is (I think this is what you meant) for some time. Do you both have a consistent approach for insulating and counseling your younger daughter through this? Can he help you with your mother (i.e. "it takes two") and other family members?

Thanks.
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Monroe

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#11809 - 09/17/11 02:39 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, our home environment is so much less stressful! I can't even believe it. Not only did we have the big occurrences before, but there was day to day stuff. I always wondered where she was, who she was with, who she was texting, how she was going to respond to me, if she'd be home on time or at all. Her bedroom was on the first floor and one morning I was woken up by the back door slamming. I was pretty darn sure that it wasn't part of a dream. I went in her room and she had her screen up and her window down, but not locked. She denied that anyone was just in there, but I'm sure someone was. Everyday, all day, was tense. I was suspicious and full of anxiety. Even though I was the hold out (my husband was ready for her to leave much earlier), after the initial shock of finding things out and her leaving, the stress level improved greatly! My 14 y/o doesn't have to hear the yelling, the arguments, the questioning, all day, everyday. My 19 y/o was like a full time job. There is peace in our home now.
Sometimes I still miss my girl, but it gets easier every time she does something to hurt me.

My husband and I are united now that I see my 19 y/o for who she is. We both agreed in May when the 19 y/o last moved out, that she would have no contact with the 14 y/o. I just blocked the 14 y/o's phone.

It's my nosy, busy body aunt who says that "it takes 2". My mom is fine. Thank God! In fact my mom said that if she ever saw my older daughter, she'd ask her if she knew how much she's hurting me, that I'm HER daughter. That made me feel good. Happy tears. He can't stand my aunt. She has always butted into other people's lives. This time she crossed the line. I might write her a letter mentioning that she needs to keep out of other people's business, that she got involved without knowing what she was talking about because she doesn't have the facts. I also want to say that she's known me my whole life, and I'm disappointed and hurt that she doesn't know me better.

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#11810 - 09/18/11 06:27 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Momminus

This is all new territory for me, but as other here have commented, the Forum has given me confidence and reduced much of my self-doubt and second-guessing. I know who I'm dealing with.

You didn't ask for my point of view on how you plan to handle the situation with your aunt, but your approach seems to be directed at giving yourself the satisfaction of setting the record straight. Will it help your aunt understand your reality, your daughter's motives and how your aunt is being manipulated? Maybe your aunt needs to see that your are truly mourning your loss before she can begin to appreciate that there is more to the story than what she is hearing from your daughter. It sounds as though you are OK with alienating your aunt, which is understandable.

We sat down with my daughter and explained to her that she will need to move out after she graduated from HS. That living here while she's in a community college is not an option. Our tone was compassionate, but firm. If she still chose to attend a community college, she would need to get an apartment, and any visits to our home would be contingent on her behavior and discussed in advance. Her response took me off guard... She said calmly "so I can or can't stay the summer?". We said yes, if things stabilize (we didn't define that, and she didn't ask). She said thank you - that's it! No drama, no victim, no emotion.

She has been pretty good since the short discussion. My 12 yr old son put on a coat and tie (his first) for his first dance class, we were taking pictures, making a big deal. He won't even put a T-shirt on if it looks brand new/white (I had to rub his new school shirts in the grass and then wash, leaving stains - seriously). My Psychopath daughter stayed in another room probably listening to this family moment - a rite of passage of sorts. I went in and reminded her that he was going to the dance class she went to six years ago, told her she might want to check him out. She got up and asked him to get out of the car so she could see him, then told him he would be the most handsome boy at the dance. My son said thanks and smiled.

So, I'm feeling a little emotional, and almost hope that my Psychopath daughter does something calculated and destructive - soon. I'm reflecting on the past few years and her wake of destruction, but the last couple days are front and center.
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Monroe

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#11811 - 09/18/11 06:55 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, it has been so nice to be able to speak with someone else in my situation. I feel so alone, as I'm guessing you do. When my friends complain about their kids, it's small stuff, they can't really relate. I'm glad that you're reaching out, because it is helping me.

I don't want to alienate my aunt, but I can't see her if I know that she thinks that my husband and I are responsible for our 19 y/o's behavior. I won't be looked at like that. I have taken enough from my daughter. I was just finishing a letter to my aunt. The main focus was on how I thought she knew me better, that my girls are my world, how very hard this has been on my family, how she doesn't even know 95% of what happened, and how my 19 y/o will always be my daughter, and if by some chance, there is a true change, that would make me the happiest person in the world.


My 19 y/o daughter was always pretty good with her sister. They seemed close, but I think she thought of her as her one ally. I know what you mean about your daughter. Now you have a glimmer of hope. Even on apparent good days with my daughter, I couldn't relax because I was waiting for something to happen. Will you be drawn back in? That is my fear also. What if our daughter shows up on our doorstep in tears and says all the right things? Can I tell her to go away? I don't know!

Your advice is always welcome. I definitely don't know how to handle this whole situation.

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#11813 - 09/18/11 07:08 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
I'm thankful that we're both on this forum, Momminus. I think we need to remain vigilante honestly, and manage through the guilt and whatever pain those glimmers bring, ironically.

How many times has your daughter said "all the right things"? I am taking a "psychopath until proven normal" approach with mine. And there would have to be a mountain of evidence to prove her "normal", unless I dismiss what I've known for the last four years. Our instincts will be forgiving, God/and or evolution ensures that imo. But I'm going to use my brain as my compass, not my heart, as difficult as that will be I know.
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Monroe

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#11816 - 09/18/11 05:35 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, my stand right now is also psychopath until proven normal. I honestly don't know what I'd do if she had no place to go. I really hope it never comes to that. I think part of my "problem" is not only being a loving parent, but also that she was never actually diagnosed by a professional. I've read a lot, both online and in books, and she seems to fit. I can't find any other explanation for her behavior. I've researched other mental disorders and none seem to fit. Psychopath fits. I just wonder, what if I'm wrong? I really don't think so, because she has abandoned us before and not seemed to have cared. Also, what I read from you and other posts on my subject alone, makes me confident that I'm right. I need to have confidence in myself that I have exhausted all other possibilities and given this many chances. I really see no other diagnosis.

Just wondering, does your daughter dress or fix herself up weird? Mine started changing her appearance about a year ago. She cut her long hair into a very short cut and darkened it (not black). She also started wearing the lotion that dyes your skin to make it look tan. The thing is, she only would wear it on her face, and there was an obvious line where it stopped at her jaw bone. She also ordered these weird contacts that made her look crazy. They were really freaky. The black on the outer circumference of the iris was thicker. She also started wearing leggings as pants. It was very slutty looking.

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#11817 - 09/18/11 07:20 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
I don't think my dad was ever officially diagnosed. From what I believe, most aren't.

I've been told that he is, by a number of different psychotherapists I've had treatment from for the damage he'd caused me. 'Textbook psychopath' was how he was described by one. But I'd got there myself a good while before. The total lack of empathy was the thing that started me thinking. The more I found out, the more everything seemed to fall into place and fit together.

I wouldn't worry too much about your daughter finding somewhere to stay. These people make it their life's work to find (vulnerable) people to prey on. They seem to have an innate confidence in their ability to do this, and don't waste time crying over spilt milk. If a situation isn't working out for them, they just drop everything and everyone and move on, without the merest second though or regret, or feeling of sadness for something lost. Capacity for depth of thought, or self reflection, or the desire/ability to mourn a loss isn't something they're interested in or care about, or behaviours they would even want to engage in. It would take them away from their primary focus in life.

When my dad twigged that I was no longer in his influence, this is what happened to me. And he twigged before it even entered my consciousness. It was like he had this radar, or something. So he dropped me, moved on without a second thought, and disappeared. That's it, I'd served my purpose, I didn't have any use for him any more. People as objects that can be discarded. It was a really weird feeling, like a burning, dazzling light being suddenly switched off, and everything going very cold and totally dark. I remember feeling cold, small, suddenly insignificant, lost, confused, stunned, scared to even breathe, frightened and yet relieved that I was somehow still alive.

It was having the time and space after he left that allowed me to very slowly start putting things together. Time, space and clarity of thought is something that they don't want you to have, so all of their energy goes into creating chaos and confusion around you. If something doesn't work, they just try another tactic. You're threatening to cast them out? You're at the point where you can't take any more, and they sense that they're losing you and control over you? Time for a honeymoon period where they're as sweet as pie. You relax, let your guard down a little, are happy that things seem to be working out, start to forget how bad things where, start to doubt yourself that things were ever really that bad. Actually, this is the cycle of violence that domestic abusers use. It might help you to read up on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_abuse And you might also be interested in reading about Gaslighting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Hope that helps. And hope I don't come across as preachy and judgemental. I know how hard it is to try and deal with this stuff.

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#11819 - 09/18/11 09:49 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Here is a link in the Resource Section about What is Gaslighting

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#11821 - 09/19/11 12:33 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Thank you Di. That explains it so much better than the Wikipedia article.

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#11823 - 09/19/11 03:17 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Starry and Di,


Thank you both so much!!! Starry you didn't seem preachy. Gaslighting is exactly what happened to me over and over again. That's what allowed me to rationalize my daughter's behavior. I have a good friend that has reassured me more than once that I am right. She has reminded me of all that my daughter has done. Thanks to both of you for the reminder of what is happening again. I know I didn't come to this conclusion lightly. I've got to continue trusting myself. I looked at the checklist on Di's link. That was a real eye opener! They fit! How could I have been so blind time after time and even now continue to still doubt myself? My husband has been sure of her for a long time. He doesn't believe in this diagnosis though. He doesn't think there is such a thing and that my daughter simply makes bad choices. I guess it doesn't really matter. He still feels like she won't ever change.
Is there real scientific evidence of this disorder, though? I read about PET scans showing differences in the brain. Or is it all by a symptoms checklist? Just curious.

Thanks again.

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#11824 - 09/19/11 04:43 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: momminus1
Starry and Di,


Thank you both so much!!! Starry you didn't seem preachy.




Thank you for that.



Originally Posted By: momminus1

He doesn't think there is such a thing and that my daughter simply makes bad choices.


He's right in a way. She does make bad choices. The thing is, she makes those choices knowingly: for a purpose and knowing the effect they will have on other people.

I always thought that my dad didn't understand he'd done a wrong thing in raping me. But it became very, very clear that he knew exactly where the line between right and wrong was, and knew exactly when he was stepping over it, when he was choosing to step over it, and what he would gain from stepping over it. It was all calculated, all carefully thought out. And he used the methods that he did because they're devastatingly effective.


Originally Posted By: momminus1

I guess it doesn't really matter. He still feels like she won't ever change.



I think he's right. She won't. Because she has a way of being in which all her needs are met. So she doesn't see the need to change.

That's how I feel about it any how. I wonder if any of the other people contributing to the forum have a different view?


Originally Posted By: momminus1

Is there real scientific evidence of this disorder, though? I read about PET scans showing differences in the brain. Or is it all by a symptoms checklist? Just curious.



I believe there is research that shows that psychopath's brains are wired differently.

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#11825 - 09/19/11 06:56 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi, sorry for not being more efficient, I need to clean up and check links at the Resource Section but here is the brain information Brain Studies and Psychopaths

Di

There are many articles in the Resource Section about Fledgling Psychopaths.


Quote:
"It is hard to imagine any parent of a psychopath who has not asked the question, almost certainly with a sense of desperation, `What have I done wrong as a parent to bring this about in my child?'

"The answer is, possibly nothing. To summarize our sparse data, we do not know why people become psychopaths, but current evidence leads us away from the commonly held idea that the behavior of parents bears sole or even primary responsibility for the disorder."

Robert Hare, Ph.D., in
Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us, 1993


Resource Section here at forum ***click here**

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#11826 - 09/19/11 08:31 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Thoughtful and perceptive post, Starry.

I do hope that you are working with someone(s) that can take you by the hand (figuratively) and walk with you away from what your father did. I have no experience in that area, with family or friends. But if I could, I would put those experiences with your biological father and store them in one of those boxes that are used for nuclear waste - then bury or it send it far into space. You're obviously a wonderful and giving person and you have great things in store for you. Do you feel determined not to allow him to continue to have an influence in your life, is that possible?

I was with my Psychopath daughter and fell in the garage in standing water. My knee hit the ground hard before I knew I was falling. It was loud (my knee), obviously very painful. I looked up at my daughter. She was standing above me looking down, still holding groceries. She appeared curious, not quite fascinated - but interested in my unfortunate situation, head slightly tilted. I fell back off my knee and used a four letter word she never hears me use. I don't know how much time had gone by, maybe only 7 or 8 seconds, and then she put the groceries down, put a new and concerned face on and said, "Oh God Dad, are you alright?". It just took her a while to figure out what an appropriate response should be. "Callous, lack of empathy".

Momminus, go back to the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. I been revisiting it almost every day. I don't want to get this wrong, too much at stake. Our daughters will get better and better at their "trade" as they mature, if they are true Psychopaths. And their web and damage will broaden. My experience in my garage is actually helpful, especially since I I have context I can place it in that frames the attributes of a psychopath.
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Monroe

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#11827 - 09/19/11 09:05 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
It's strange, once you start on this train of thought, more and more falls into place. And even experiences that are hurtful and negative start to seem to have a frame of reference, which give them meaning. No longer are they hurtful and confusing. No longer are you lost and at sea. Small, or large, each experience has its weight, its place, its significance.

And importantly, each experience does not exist in isolation any more, but is connected to a thought, a feeling, a process, the bigger picture.

I think this is a very powerful form of healing. Where psychopaths try to disconnect, sever and cause chaos, this is the opposite.

Yours in hope

Starry x

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#11828 - 09/19/11 09:19 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Monroe, you are correct, it took her a few seconds to process how to respond. If a person falls on concrete on their knee to the point of making a noise a "normal" response would have been to drop the groceries and help. I fell on concrete a couple of times and it is the worst fall to have, anyone can see the pain of someone doing it and would rush to help.

Di

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#11833 - 09/19/11 12:44 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
newlife Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 7
Monroe,

Watch a movie "7" and let us know if anything there reminds you of the scene in your garage.

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#11834 - 09/19/11 12:59 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
concerned Offline
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Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 47
Hello everyone,

Unfortunately, I don't have any advice. All I can say is that I am so sorry about the heartache that you are going through. Being rejected by a child who is loved so much is like ripping your heart out. I know, because I have gone through it. My daughter is married to a psychopath, but she is the one who rejected us. Some of the things you have written to describe your daughter's reactions, are things my daughter has done. I am falling apart now because I have a sweet four year old granddaughter that I have to watch being ruined, and there is nothing I can do. I am so angry and powerless. Very, very angry. And on top of all of this, I have a new boss that fits the bill on psychopath. In 6 short months, a wonderful company has been transformed into a heartless company. There is no justice, and no protection for innocent children.

I remember hearing in the news a few years ago about some grandparents that were discovered to have "kidnapped" their grandchildren. The children's parents were on drugs, and irresponsible, and the grandparents took their grandchildren away, changed their names and raised them in a loving home. The news showed two grown children that looked happy and well adjusted. The grandparents went to jail. I'm sure that was a sacrifice they were willing to make. I will never forget the contrast between the grown, happy children, and the angry, vengeful parents that they were luckily kept away from.

That is not an option for us, because we have a sweet, respectful daughter that doesn't deserve to lose her family. I don't want to give up on my granddaughter, but we had a very rough weekend with her.

She can't get to sleep anymore when she comes here, she refuses to eat, she refuses to say prayers, she refuses to sing, color, do any learning activities. She is SCARED of everyone except a few of her immediate family. She won't try to ride a bike, now is afraid of the zoo, pumpkin farm, you name it.

Her parents put her in her room at home, alone with a movie for most of the day. She has to eat her meals in there alone, with a movie on. They can't buy food or clothing for her, but as soon as my daughter's paycheck comes in, they run to the dollar store to buy her another useless toy. I am so angry that my daughter is a part of this. She has given herself over to whatever her husband wants.

I'm sorry for the pain these people cause so many.

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#11841 - 09/19/11 05:39 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: concerned]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
I read the Hare criteria, and they certainly fit. I guess I just doubt myself. This all seems so bizarre. A diagnosis would be reassuring, but the amount of evidence that I've seen is overwhelming. On a good day I have zero doubt, and can trust in what I've seen and experienced. I need to print out the criteria so I have it to look at when I need to-or I could reread all my posts. I just need to be reminded, lest I forget how bad it has been.


concerned-That must be so hard to watch your daughter be part of it. Do you think that she feels trapped? Maybe she is still won over by his charm? I feel bad for your little granddaughter. That is no life for a child. Hopefully she will get help when she starts school. Someone will surely notice something.

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#11842 - 09/19/11 06:45 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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momminus1, there is the best Psychopath evaluator in the country located in Austin, Texas, if you ever want to take your daughter there for an evaluation. She is of the age that he can give you an actual Psychopath diagnosis vs. conduct disorder or whatever terms they use for fledgling Psychopaths. If you also Monroe want to remove all doubts he is the best there is.

Di

You can contact me for his information. You can read his work in the Resource Section.

Dr. Carl Gacono

There were issues in the past with members contacting him by phone seeking free information so you would have to take my word on it and book the appointment, I think the evaluation takes over during a 3 day period, he rules out any other possible diagnosis first and he is the best and most qualified person I have ever met. You can read his extensive background and published books at the above link. He doesn't do phone consultations so if I had any doubt I would seek his help. It could close the "what if I was wrong" questions and confirm your concerns.

Di

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#11843 - 09/19/11 07:27 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Dianne, thanks so much for that information. Unfortunately, we don't have the money for the trip or visit. Also, I really doubt that my daughter would go. After all, I'm the problem. She has matured and whatever sh e did wasn't that big of a deal and I need to forget it. I really think she's a psychopath, and if she isn't, she fits the criteria and is just as bad.

She has told me that she never felt guilt, that she didn't think she loved anyone, and she doesn't seem to bond with anyone. She also said that she's different from everyone else. That no one thinks like her. She said all this over the last 2-3 years, not in reference to being a psychopath, just out of anger or frustration. Like I said earlier, she seemed to have a very mild case of autism when she was a child. I say this because she really didn't relate to anyone. It was always superficial. Then I thought it was ADD. She is scatter-brained. I think she was just in her own little world. She was distant to the point of seeming rude. My head tells me psychopath, but I guess there's the disbelief that it's my child. There has to be some other reason for her behavior. The whole thing is just surreal. I think I just need to accept reality. She's blocked from the phones, but she certainly knows that if she's sincerely remorseful, that I'd always be here for her. Before I knew what was wrong with her, I told her that I was her greatest ally and that I'd always be here for her. I definitely have been until just a few months ago. She knows al that I need is an admission of guilt, a sincere apology, and a demonstrated change of behavior. I don't expect to get any of the 3, unless the man she's living with kicks her out. Even then, the apology won't be sincere and behavior won't change. I know better. It's just so hard to accept this.

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#11846 - 09/20/11 05:38 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Thank you, Dianne

Do you think that Gacono's approach ("Rorschach Assessment of Aggressive and Psychopathic Personalities") is superior to other evaluation techniques? I'm not much familiar with Rorschach testing - only "what does this picture mean to you...". I know many practitioners rely on it as diagnostic, can it be definitive?

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
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Monroe

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#11847 - 09/20/11 05:40 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Monroe Offline
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Posts: 40
Like Momminus, I have no idea how I could convince my daughter to expose herself.
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Monroe

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#11850 - 09/20/11 01:33 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi Monroe, Dr. Gacono does a series of tests and is the most qualified in the field. It isn't about looking at pictures, he determines his diagnosis based on all of his scientific experience. Personally if I had a child that I wanted to know for sure even though I thought I knew for sure I would have Dr. Gacono do the evaluation, that way you will never look back and second guess your decisions you will have to make in the future which will be tough ones. It would remove any sliver of creeping doubt and give you the assurance what you need to do is the right thing to protect your family.

I hope that answers your question, if you have any more, this is just my view on what I would do in order to know what you already know, have it confirmed so you can take the necessary steps.

I have been in contact with Dr. Gacono over the years and he is in my opinion would be my best choice for an evaluation. It is like when a couple thinks their partner is cheating, they hire a PI to give them the evidence to face the situation.

Di

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#11851 - 09/20/11 01:51 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Great, thanks again.

Another question, maybe should be a different topic/thread...

I know there are violent psychopaths, and the social psychopaths you personally are more interested in, or focused on. But are do psychopaths of varying degrees? In other words, on a hypothetical continuum of mild to severe, can an individual be more, or less of a psychopath than another diagnosed psychopath? Like, have a smaller subset of the attributes on the List? Or - is it like being pregnant...

Lastly, on the same general train of thought, I assume that all psychopaths become more "effective" and driven (i.e. harmful, manipulative, destructive) as they mature. It never, ever gets better (for those of us in their sphere of influence). Does it, can it under any circumstances that you have seen?
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Monroe

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#11852 - 09/20/11 02:17 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, good questions! I'm curious , also!

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#11853 - 09/20/11 02:29 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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All you would need to do is take her to the appointment, Dr. Gacono will take it from there. Tell her it is a condition of what your decision will be. He knows how to diagnose and "expose" herself. She wouldn't be able to slip past him, he is a very experienced person in diagnosing Psychopaths.

Di

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#11854 - 09/20/11 02:57 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Sadly they just get better with age and practice. If a parent doesn't break completely free you will face a lifetime of calls from their victims etc. Pray she doesn't get pregnant.

I think the only varying degrees are if they are a) socialized like your daughter or b) non socialized and the non socialized ones are the ones who aren't brought up as well with advantages and more likely to get caught and sent to prison. Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony are excellent examples of well socialized Psychopaths who let the mask drop and got caught.

Scott's 1/2 sister actually wrote a book about him, she wasn't raised by the family but adopted before Scott was born. She reunited with her mom and family and Scott. She believed in him and he actually stayed at her and her husbands home while the investigation was going on before Lacey's body washed ashore. She had some very interesting observations, he was hitting on the babysitter and many things started to puzzle her over his actions of being so breezy while his wife was missing, no real concerns. As I recall her home overlooked the area where Scott had dumped Lacey's body on his so called fishing trip excuse of where he was when she went missing, he put her family through sheer hell. I remember she wrote before she broke off contact and put the pieces together that he indeed had murdered Lacey that when she asked him about being in San Quentin (for anyone who doesn't know the place it is an old ancient prison on prime ocean front property), he told her something like well, where else could you get such a view. She was no longer welcome by his parents once she voiced her suspicions, as far as I know his parents are still on his side.

IMO any Psychopath is capable of violent crimes, without a conscience all bets are off the table.

There are many shows on TV about real life Psychopaths who do get caught and they are usually the socialized ones. The books that Ann Rule writes many times cover socialized Psychopaths. The late true crime author Jack Olsen wrote a few also, the most chilling is a book called "Son". He came from a well to do highly respected family and was out brutally raping women in the area for a long time before getting caught and during this time he was living with a woman who had no idea he was sneaking out of the house at night and committing such horrific crimes. His father owned the local newspaper and for all outside appearances they were a "normal" family. His mother had to be a Psychopath because when her son was caught she tried to get a hit on the Judge. It is a great read. Dateline often has shows about socialized Psychopaths. I saw an older show the other night where the wife of one of 2 brothers was a Psychopath and he ended up dead. The other brother had to be a Psychopath because he was caught stealing etc, I never saw the end but somehow someone caught up with him and killed him. He (the brother married to a Psychopath woman) had hired a PI who was a retired cop and even when warned that his wife would likely kill him, he was too worried about the kids, the divorce etc. The PI was pushing him to have something he was drinking tested but never took his advise. He started noticing that when he had some scotch at night he was becoming ill. They were very wealthy.

So in sum there really aren't any varying degrees except how slick they are and if they get caught or not. You are either a Psychopath or you aren't and the dividing line is they lack a conscience. I have had cases where a Psychopath father was molesting his own daughter, do I think he was a pedophile, probably not but that is what happens when you lack a conscience, want to get even with an x they will go to extremes or probably more likely just for the sexual thrill. One thing they all share are bizarre sexual tendencies. They can use that "spell" to get an otherwise normal person to do some horrific things to please them.

I started out years ago studying the non socialized Psychopaths and am still interested in them, like when there was a recent trial, I made sure I went and watched.

You are right it is like being pregnant you either are or your aren't. There is no cure, the only path is to get out of their path of destruction.

Di

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#11855 - 09/20/11 03:05 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline

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Sadly in the last 14 years, this was the first online support community, I have never seen a happy ending. Hoping and wishing and continuing to try to help them will only tear you apart, they lack the capacity to think of anyone but themselves. They are the supreme victims in their minds.

I am sorry I can't tell you of any happy endings except for victims who were in relationships with Psychopaths who finally broke away and found peace and as you can tell by the members here that is a long hard journey to ever trust again and dealing with the aftermath is usually crippling, everyone shuts them out and they have no where to turn, people get tired of listening to them and put them in the crazy box, it is a very isolating experience to say the least. That is where working toward that neutral zone becomes the only path. As a parent it is very hard to disconnect from because after all it is your child that you had all those hopes and dreams for. Same as people raised by Psychopaths or in any kind of close relationship, it is almost surreal to imagine such evil exists. They prey on the kind and caring.

I have a great deal of pain even having this forum but it is a commitment I made to myself to keep it for anyone in need.

Di

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#11856 - 09/20/11 05:11 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Di, thank you so much for this forum! It is helping me with my confidence about the situation. I need to boost myself up daily and reaffirm my position. Your responses are so quick and informative. Also, you understand. I, too, hope that my daughter doesn't get pregnant. Do you have any advice if she does get pregnant? It would seem that I would have to have no contact with my grandchild. Is that right?




Monroe, if you don't mind answering, do you have any problems trusting your other children? Do you look for signs in them? My 14 y/o is completely different, but I still worry that she will change with age. I worry that because I missed the clues with my other daughter, that I might be missing something here. I keep telling myself how different they are. My husband doesn't see signs either. Now if I could just wipe out all of those questioning thoughts and just enjoy my younger girl.

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#11857 - 09/20/11 06:13 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi momminus1, our member concerned can answer your question better. Her daughter is married to a Psychopath and they have a child. She has posted on this thread so if you click on her name you can see the pain she is in worrying about her grandchild. Her daughter is a very good person but unfortunately under the spell of a Psychopath.

Since your daughter is the Psychopath I would suspect if she has children you will be either not be able to be in touch with them or she will use them to her own ends. All you can pray for is whoever she might have a child with will fight her tooth and nail for custody once he wakes up. We have grandparents here who have a daughter in law Psychopath in custody of their grandchild and it rips your heart out to hear their stories. My sister's step daughter who is now in her 30's and isn't a Psychopath but is nutty and has had 3 kids by 3 different men, her mother who is also a case in herself took custody of the first child and the other two men's families took in the other 2 to get them away from her. Unfortunately with a Psychopath they can and will use children as a tool. You can tell by reading some of our members here what their lives were like and still are from being raised by a Psychopath. I wish I could say it worked out okay but Starry and some of the others will tell you the truth of what it was like. I wish I could paint a rosy picture but I have to be honest it will be heartbreaking. I am sure if you read posts from concerned you will get the picture of the torture she and her husband are enduring by having to stand back and watch their grandchild being raised the way she is. All you can do is pray she won't have children.

I know you asked Monroe but the conscience forms between 3 and 5 years old so I would think you are out of the woods with your daughter and she is fine. The worst thing would be to let her be in contact with your daughter and fall under her influence and mimic her style. Keep up with keeping the communication open with her so she understands why her sister can't be part of the family.

The forum is a community for anyone who crosses our Internet doors seeking help. Over all these years many have passed through and I only hope and pray they found the answers they were seeking. I have never given it a thought to not have the forum here for those in need. Everyone needs a voice and compassion and understanding.

Di

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#11858 - 09/21/11 01:43 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: Dianne E.


I have had cases where a Psychopath father was molesting his own daughter, do I think he was a pedophile, probably not but that is what happens when you lack a conscience, want to get even with an x they will go to extremes or probably more likely just for the sexual thrill. One thing they all share are bizarre sexual tendencies. They can use that "spell" to get an otherwise normal person to do some horrific things to please them.


Just wanted to chip in here and say I absolutely agree with you, Di.

I think for psychopaths it comes back to being a question of gaining power and control over someone.

Sex (non consensual) is a really good way to gain power and control for a number of reasons:
By letting the other person know what they are not even entitled to own their own body and the physical space it takes up
By letting the person know that they are not in control of their own body/bodily functions
By perpetuating the mind/body severing that psychopaths like to go for
By reinforcing the secrecy/shame/isolation element that psychopaths enforce

And, of course, by turning them into an object.

This is why sex with these people is a very strange experience. It's not a dialogue between two people, not an experience of sharing and of communication, but an experience in which one person is turned into an object in order to facilitate the dialogue inside a psychopath's head.

Sorry, a bit hard hitting I know.

I could write more, but I find this a bit difficult.

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#11859 - 09/21/11 04:36 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
I do hope the member "concerned" weighs in, as they have seen the power a Psychopath can have on an otherwise good person under the influence and control of a Psychopath, their son-in-law.

My three other children have not been influenced by my Psychopath daughter (she's the 2nd of four kids), other than having been exposed as objects to Psychopaths cruelty. My shy and sweet 3rd daughter is ridiculed by Psychopath because of her small group of "misfit" friends. Psychopath knows that popularity is a sensitive issue for my #3 (although she is proud of the goodness and loyalty of her small circle). Psychopath knows how to emotionally hurt her, but #3 also has developed core self-confidence that Psychopath cannot penetrate. My 12 yr old son is a pacifist, but is physically/emotionally strong and stands up to bullies at his school. Solid sense of right and wrong. He stands up to Psychopath when she creates chaos at home, but ultimately cannot change things here - he is frustrated at our inability to enforce boundaries, but also has seen the extremes we've gone to to try. My oldest daughter is a force to be reckoned with, an enforcer, captain of her swim team, wants to join a Peace Corps-type org., and takes no BS. My Psychopath avoids her when she is home. My oldest has been most outspoken about the need to address the situation.

If I thought my kids were being sucked into Psychopaths web, my decision to move Psychopath out now would be easier. I worry about the trauma my youngest kids have been exposed to. My oldest went to boarding school in 2005 so has been away as Psychopath has developed, but stays in regular contact with my #3, helps her cope. Psychopath has brought my other 2 daughters together in a special way.

Psychopath has alienated herself from our family. A more devious and skilled Psychopath would have taken a different approach I would think - similar to what your Psychopath daughter is doing with your 14 yr. old.

The contrast between our 4 kids has given me some confidence about our Psychopaths diagnosis. But my Psychopath has not even tried to put her siblings under the spell I've read about here. That makes me wonder, because I would think a Psychopath would have approached her siblings differently in order inflict greater damage (pulling them to her side, gaining their confidence), and exert more control. My Psychopath wrote in her journal, "I need to be smarter, stronger, better"...
_________________________
Monroe

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#11860 - 09/21/11 05:52 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, your reply gave me goosebumps, literally. I'm sure it must be difficult to see your psychopath hurt her siblings. That would be so hard on them. Like I said, mine is till trying to use her sister as an ally. My youngest has always looked up to her big sister. They are 5 years apart, and the youngest has copied a lot from her sister- style, opinions, etc. It was purely an admiration of big sister. When my oldest got too weird with her style and friends though, my youngest made comments to me. My youngest no longer dresses like her sister did and wants no connection. She'll say that she's not like her sister. I know that shutting her sister out must be especially hard for her because her sister was never really mean to her. My youngest does see what her sister has done to everyone and how she's lived her life. My youngest is smart enough to see that her sister is messed up and had hurt many people and destroyed what "was" our family. In the texts about a week and a half ago, my oldest told my youngest that she couldn't lose her, too. My youngest gave a response that made me so proud. She said, "You've already lost me, not by my choice, but yours." I could have cried happy tears when she showed it to me, and now again as I write it. Now that I've seen evil, I can't believe how wonderful it is to have such a great daughter.

There is one thing that stands out that my oldest did do to make fun of my youngest. My youngest is a sensitive person, like me. She and I would both cry watching sad movies. My oldest would laugh and ask why we were crying, saying that it was only a movie. This angers me because my youngest doesn't cry anymore watching movies. She has told me though that I wouldn't like a movie because it'e really sad, or that something is too sad to watch.

Thanks for talking about your kids, Monroe. I'm glad that they seem to be handling it as well as can be expected.

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#11861 - 09/21/11 06:39 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi "concerned" just checked in on this thread a few days ago, I am not sure she is able to communicate right now, perhaps reading her story is the best by clicking on her name, the pain in her last post is hard to read so I can only imagine her intense pain and probably isn't in a position to be asked questions, if she wants to interject that is fine but we need to give her space and on her own time.

Quote:
Monroe
Psychopath has alienated herself from our family. A more devious and skilled Psychopath would have taken a different approach I would think - similar to what your Psychopath daughter is doing with your 14 yr. old.


Many approaches are used, the end result is isolation, it is hard to tell what is going on in your younger daughters mind. Their end goal is destruction, she sounds like a very well socialized Psychopath and her actions might not mimic that of a Psychopath in another family but the results are the same. Think of what she wrote about you and your wife, that is a "typical" I know it all and hate them for what they are tactic. Think about how she handled getting caught shoplifting, she is no dummy, they learn to be more subtle. With that skill is how they will capture victims now and in the future with them as the center stage victim.

Just as a simple observation, momminus1's younger daughter will no longer cry at movies, she is more than likely taking that inside internally after being ridiculed for showing emotion, now she thinks crying at movies isn't okay. They are very subtle and even if everything is seeming okay with the other children how will you ever know how their minds are processing all of this? It is like having a wild cancer virus in any environment they are in, some will catch the virus and suffer later as adults and some will be strong. It is a lot to ask of an innocent child to even be in the presence of a Psychopath. I shut down very early in life and from all outside appearances seemed "okay" and mine was just from being in a highly dysfunctional environment.

Di

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#11862 - 09/21/11 07:18 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: Dianne E.

Just as a simple observation, momminus1's younger daughter will no longer cry at movies, she is more than likely taking that inside internally after being ridiculed for showing emotion, now she thinks crying at movies isn't okay. They are very subtle and even if everything is seeming okay with the other children how will you ever know how their minds are processing all of this? It is like having a wild cancer virus in any environment they are in, some will catch the virus and suffer later as adults and some will be strong. It is a lot to ask of an innocent child to even be in the presence of a Psychopath. I shut down very early in life and from all outside appearances seemed "okay" and mine was just from being in a highly dysfunctional environment.

Di


Di, once again I think that you've managed to hit the nail on the head.

What you're describing here is a kind of disconnect. This is what psychopaths aim for, disconnection. This is how it starts.

Something which seems quite small and insignificant can, I think, be huge in a person's life. My dad didn't like my name, and he told me so. In fact, he really enjoyed telling me so. He only ever said it once. I remember though, it's seared into my mind, the precise words, the tone of his voice, the look in his eye. A small thing for sure, but which obviously has huge significance in the bigger picture.

Disconnect is how I deal with any sort of thing that troubles me. I wouldn't really trust other people with my feelings, especially when I'm sad or upset. So I don't talk about stuff like this with anyone. It's only very recently (and I'm in advanced middle age now) that I've started to let my guard down ever so slightly. It's been causing me a huge amount of panic though, and my coping method for this is to disconnect. So round and round I go.


There is, of course, a huge gamut of 'disconnect'. It can be disconnect from one's own emotions, one's own thought process, from one's body, from emotional pain, from physical pain, from one's family, from others in the outside world...

Why do people do this? It's a form of self protection, a way to try to regain control by establishing some kind of boundary after a boundary has been violated, and an attempt to feel safe again.

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#11863 - 09/21/11 07:34 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
concerned Offline
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Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 47
Hi all,

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I did want to make a few comments. Yes, I had a breakdown the other day, but I'm OK right now. We love having our granddaughter here, but sometimes it is emotionally draining also.

My daughter's husband is not a socialized psychopath. I hesitate to say that it makes a difference because I might just be kidding myself. My brother's son was married to a psychopath also, who is more like the girls that Monroe and mommiminus1 are dealing with.

The difference in the impact on our situation versus my brother's is night and day. To explain more, our son in law is not smart and doesn't want to socialize out of his comfort zone. He tends to dominate one friend at a time, and gets all he needs from a friend, his parents, and my daughter. He doesn't need or want alot. Just doesn't want to work, and wants to have his toys. My brother's daughter-in-law seeks to hurt them, it seems to be her goal. So, she was able to convince their best friends and some of their close relatives that they were cruel, their son was cruel, and she was an innocent victim. She also has control of their other daughter in law, so that has also aleinated them from their other son because of his wife. My brother and sister-in-law are very kind, generous people and they did a good job of raising their four children. They also adopted two nieces when their mother died. But, unbelievably, their good friends and some family turned against them because of the psychopath.

Another difference between our two families is that my brother and sil just realized a few years ago that they were dealing with a psychopath. So, starting out they tried to deal with her as you would a normal person, and that set her on her mission of hurting them. We feel fortunate that we found out right away that we were dealing with a psychopath in our son-in-law (our daughter's boyfriend at the time). I wouldn't say that has changed the amount of pain that any of us have suffered, but it has changed the impact on our circle of friends and family. We did alot of things wrong (and still do), and did alienate him, but since we knew what he was, we adjusted our interactions with him to keep him from feeling threatened by us. He seems more content with having control of just our daughter and grand-daughter rather than bothering with anyone else in our life. I think that may be the different between the socialized and non-socialized aspect.

Knowing what we were dealing with, we were able to create a close bond with our granddaughter by getting to have her here every weekend since she was a tiny baby. The way we did that was to pose it as a help to the parents. ("I know you guys are so tired, would it help if we keep the baby for the weekend?") As long as it was to the Psychopaths benefit, he really pushed having her come over. If it ever sounded to him like we wanted it, he wouldn't allow her to come. One time when she was about 6 months old, she clung to my husband when he was handing her to her dad (the psycho). We didn't get her the following weekend - he felt threatened. So, picking up on that, we always made a big deal about Daddy when they came to get her. A few months ago, he had a big fit (we're not sure why)and now our granddaughter comes every other weekend. We responded when they told us the change, like that made perfect sense, and was a good idea. Responding that way helps. If we had acted upset by it, he would probably keep her from coming that often.

Well, I've taken too long. That's what happens when I start writing, the words just come pouring out, and time gets away from me. I might ask Diane to delete this post at some point, and the reason is that if my daughter ever gets on here like I've asked her to, she would know this is me, and it would probably make her mad and turn her back to him even stronger.

Psychopaths will have children if they believe that they can be used to manipulate people, or hurt people. So, you may start preparing yourselves for that. Will the child be used to hurt you? Yes. Will you be able to do anything about it? Probably not.

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#11864 - 09/21/11 11:40 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: concerned]
Dianne E. Offline

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concerned, I can also edit your story to give the same information but rewording things, just let me know, I can be quite creative to keep your story intact and change things around so your daughter will never guess. I am usually around except on Tuesdays when I have treatments and can respond to your wishes quickly.

It is very kind to share what you have to say for the community, we all need to know what to expect first hand and I appreciate your adding these valuable comments.

Di

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#11865 - 09/21/11 12:59 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Thank you concerned. Thank goodness that you can have an impact in the little girl's life. You are a great example of self-less love.

I have feared for a while now that my daughter would try to get pregnant to keep a guy. I never thought about the fact that she might try to get pregnant to control me again, but it's so obvious now.

While she hasn't been married yet, she has managed to convince 3 boyfriends that I'm crazy, including the one she's living with now. The 2 guys before this one, found out that she cheated on them. They also saw other weird things about her. At one point I had been like a mom to them. They were a part of the family. As soon as I saw more problems with my daughter, she'd pull away and tell them all kinds of things about me. Then they thought I was crazy, and used that as an excuse for why she acted the way she did.

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#11866 - 09/21/11 04:38 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Dianne

I decided to contact Dr. Gacono, thank you for the referral. For some reason I could not PM you, disabled? Anyway, we exchanged emails and spoke briefly. I mentioned that I was introduced to him through the moderator of this website/forum.

I'd like to get an assessment done where I live. If that is not possible, or I don't have complete confidence, I may take my daughter to Austin.

Dr Gacono gave me the contact info for the Society for Personality Assessment, and they recommended a "local" specialist. If you think it is possible you've heard of her (the Dr. they referred me to), could we take this off-line through PM or some other mechanism? I would value your counsel on this. I do need to get the diagnosis resolved, and I'm not going to wait a day longer than I need to.

The local Dr.:
"Dr. XXX is Board Certified in Forensic Psychology by the American Board of Professional Psychology. She is licensed in YYY. Dr. XXX's specialty areas include forensic psychological consultation, personality assessment and therapeutic assessment....Forensic psychological evaluation is a complex process that involves extensive interviewing, collection of collateral information, and psychological testing. Some forensic consultations can be less extensive and focused on limited aspects of a referral question. "
_________________________
Monroe

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#11867 - 09/21/11 05:08 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
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I would spend the time and money and consult with Dr. Gacona, I am sure his referral is fine because of his integrity but I would encourage you to consult with Dr. Gacono. He has a long distinguished publishing list and is the best in the area of evaluations.

That is my 2 cents.

The PM is disable because the software doesn't allow people who aren't registered contacting members so there were too many issues with it in the past.

You are always welcome to email me dianne@psychopath-research.com or dianne77@msn.com and I can fill you in on more reasons why I think Dr.Gacano would be a great fit for your daughter.

Di

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#11869 - 09/22/11 10:50 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
planetchildren Offline
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Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46
I have been away for about a week. My Psychopath, former dauther in law, is keeping very quiet. I know she is planning a very destructive attack on my son. We still haven't seen my grandson since July. We are waiting on a court date to have her held in contempt. My son is broken and holds everything inside. He still calls my grandson, but there is hardly any communication. My grandson still tells him he is too busy to spend time with him.

Her forces of evil can hardly be reckoned with. The power that the Pshychopath holds over an innocent child is relentless, harsh, evil, demoralizing, boundless, inhumane, poisoness, cancerous, choking, and barbaric. She is a demon in the flesh. She tortures while she smiles with a stupid grimace. She has literally bit by bit stolen his life without him even knowing it. He loves her and defends her. He can't even think for himself. He is her puppet.

It's like he's been kidnapped and removed from all forms of real love and guidance. She dangles sweet honey in front of him to lure him into her web. He thinks she loves him. She is destroying his soul.

The sad part is I'm not sure anyone else but me sees what this Psychopath has done.
I think my son is afraid to come to terms with it because of the guilt he is dealing with as a father.

I will continue to try to save my grandson! I have to stay positive for him. I have to remain pro-active in my efforts to help him. There is so little I can do.

I want so badly to expose her for what she is. I want to call her parents, her sister, and her friends to tell them what she has done to this innocent child.
BUT I CAN'T!!! I want to bash her skull into pieces. BUT I CAN'T!!!

The other day I thought...the Psychopath doesn't feel emotional remorse, love, guilt etc. But they do feel physical pain.

I am not capable of inflicting pain on anyone, but I can wish for it because of what she has done to my son and grandson.

I know that sounds horrible, but this is what a Psychopath brings out in people.

Planetchildren

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#11870 - 09/22/11 11:17 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
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Hi planetchildren, did they give you any estimate on the time it will take for the court date? Can't GAL or anyone call for an emergency court date?

I am always glad to hear from you yet very sad for your situation.

You are a wonderful grandmother for protecting you son due to his situation and taking up the fight. I pray for your grandson, no child should be in this mess.

How is he doing in school? Do the teachers notice anything or is that in the hands of the attorneys? I would think there would be some way for an emergency court date, waiting must be like slow torture. Before the court date we will need to help you with your presentation, she will come across as cool as a cucumber.

Di

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#11871 - 09/22/11 01:07 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
planetchildren Offline
member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46
They just received report cards and we don't know yet how he is doing. My son is going to the school to meet with guidance to find out. My grandson won't give out any information.

We are trying to get temporary relief for my grandson.

Yes, before going to court, I will need any and all suggestions.

We must be ready for her.

Thanks Di for your support.

Planetchildren

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#11876 - 09/23/11 08:10 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
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Here are some good tips for you planetchildren written by Violet about her custody battle:
Divorcing a Psychopath

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#11937 - 10/03/11 02:36 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
Monroe Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
I thought I would let the Forum know that I've scheduled a Psychological assessment for my recently-turned 18 yrs daughter. I told them we're not interested in counseling, therapy, we just want to know exactly the specific nature of her conduct disorder. I confirmed that the Psych Center had the capacity to assess, test for, and diagnose psychopathy, narcissism, anti-social behavior and other related disorders. I found that not all psychologists do... Having spoken to Dr. Gacono, recommended by Dianne, I wanted someone with experience in this area, and I wish a trip to Austin were practical for us. We may end up there, except now my daughter would have to agree to that excursion since she's an adult legally, and the assessment can take place over a period of visits (at least at the Psych Center I'm going to).

I heard from two psychologists that persons under 18 were generally not diagnosed with psychopathy (regardless of symptoms/behavior!), for a number of reasons, among them being they are still maturing, so any definitive diagnosis would carry higher risk of mis-diagnosis. I will let you the outcome, it may be several sessions of testing. The Dr. sees me by myself initially, then together with my daughter.

Life with my daughter - we continue to be appalled with her blatant disregard for the family and what anyone would consider behavioral "norms". We have put locks on most of the doors and lock them at night, except for the family room and kitchen area. If my wife leaves her purse on the table, her money will almost certainly be stolen. We tell her we know she has the money, she smiles and says she doesn't need our money, she has her own... As a fail-safe, I lock valuables, my wallet, any prescriptions (and some of my other daughters clothes, OMG), etc. in my car trunk. I keep the key with me always. But I noticed that a Gatorade was in her room after she went to school. It was the same kind I happened to have in my trunk (G2). I thought that was odd and checked the serial numbers against the ones in my trunk - they were the same. Last night, at 3 AM, my wife jumped out of bed and yelled at my daughter who was walking through our room. She told my daughter never to come in our room again and came back to bed. I eventually got up and checked for my key in my pants pocket in the closet. It was missing, so I went into my daughter's room and asked her for them, she gave them to me and then hopped right into bed facing the wall. She knew she could not return them to my pants before we got up. She has been coming into our closet - walking right past our bed - and taking money and my keys, then returning the keys while we slept.

Just a recent example. What is striking about her behavior, to me, is not so much the premeditated nature of her acts, or even her constant lying about almost everything. It's that her only regret in these situations is not getting what she wants when caught. No embarrassment, NEVER an apology, she does not consider the ethics of it, or my opinion of HER - could not care less. She just lost that round, she'll figure out another way next time. And I will put a lock on our closet door.
_________________________
Monroe

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#11938 - 10/03/11 04:28 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
NoesMama3 Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/11
Posts: 12
Monroe:

Disturbing, but I'm glad you've found something to proactively do about it.

It seems on my reading that psychopathy is like several other mental illnesses, in that it can't be diagnosed in minors. (I'm bipolar and it took 8 years to reach a firm diagnosis with firm treatment--whereas nearly every teenager I know seems to me to be bipolar, so I guess this is a good thing).

I'd like to point something out that everyone here probably knows: physical danger isn't the only kind of danger. Emotional danger is often disregarded or downplayed, when it needs to be avoided just as carefully. It sounds like that's what you're doing, in trying to protect yourself and your family.

Regards and best wishes.

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#11948 - 10/05/11 04:23 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe,

What you have written is very chilling. I think my daughter would have been too scared to try that. Her dad can be very intimidating.

I agree 100% with your last paragraph. The lack of guilt, remorse, and shame is quite shocking. She even used that in her advantage to earn my trust several times. After being accused at various times of various things, she would never seem to care what the accusers were saying about her. She told me that was because she knew she was innocent. At the time, while I had doubts, I believed that was a sign of strong character-to believe in yourself and hold your head high. Ha! She just had no guilt or shame.

I haven't heard from my daughter in 15 days. I can't even say that i miss her. She has become the new person to me, not my daughter who I raised. It's very strange, but I feel like I don't even love her. Shocking? I feel extreme dislike/disgust when I think of her. I know the love is still there for the little girl I had, but I don't think she was ever really there.

I'm curious to hear the results of the assessment. I think in a way your decisions then might be easier and harder at the same time, but at least you will have answers.

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#11949 - 10/05/11 06:05 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
We've cycled through so many psychiatrists and therapists over the last five years, which has taken so much of my time driving and sitting in waiting rooms. All of them have focused on understanding my daughter's symptoms, social situations - and they assumed that what my daughter shared is truthful and sincere. Sort of an outside-in approach, instead of navigating directly to understanding who they were dealing with - the inside-out approach. My daughter's symptoms have always revolved around her role as a situational victim; friends and family are mean to her, no one loves her, she's not getting the support she needs... And we've responded with support, which has drained investment in our other kids.

Long before I knew what a psychopath's attributes were, I've asked her therapists if they saw her lack of empathy - like, why is that missing, what does it mean. One therapist said she may have Asbergers (sp). This was before many of her other destructive symptoms began to emerge, or at least before I was seeing them.

How can you effectively treat a patient if you haven't arrived at a diagnosis of what/who she is? All her therapists at some point became frustrated and disillusioned by either her unwillingness to follow recommendations (usually re: how she "socialized" with family and at school). Or they ultimately felt they were being used by her ("pawn", deceit...). Such an enormous waste.

So, in my one-on-one meeting with the psychologist tomorrow, I am not going to try to build a case for psychopathy, I may not mention the term. Just share the facts. Then my daughter (if she goes, I have some leverage but may not be sufficient) will begin her tests Tues. next week.

I feel fortunate in some respects that I've had the benefit of people's experiences here on this forum, as sorry as I am for your experiences and the damage that has been inflicted. I don't think she has had a lasting impact on my other children, although my son has some symptoms that concern me (he slept with us in our bed last night, nightmares, and has been wetting his bed - he's 12). Not necessarily cause and effect... My son told me she had been in his room in the middle of the night last week, said she was on her hands and knees - what's with that??
_________________________
Monroe

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#11950 - 10/05/11 06:43 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: Monroe
One therapist said she may have Asbergers (sp). This was before many of her other destructive symptoms began to emerge, or at least before I was seeing them.


This is exactly the path I went down with my dad. I felt his lack of empathy and thought this was Asperger's. And it was before I had placed the blame for all the other stuff he did exactly where it should lie, named it for what it was. There is one family member who still believes he is autistic. She thinks he needs looking after and help. She's still caught in his web.



Originally Posted By: Monroe


I don't think she has had a lasting impact on my other children, although my son has some symptoms that concern me (he slept with us in our bed last night, nightmares, and has been wetting his bed - he's 12). Not necessarily cause and effect... My son told me she had been in his room in the middle of the night last week, said she was on her hands and knees - what's with that??


God, this is horrendous. She may have been up to something, but she may well have wanted to wake him up and freak him out a bit. My dad used messing with my sleep pattern big style. It took a while for me to understand what was going on: being woken up by him, going out very late at night, sometimes staying out all night...I thought he was a 'night owl' and just lost track of time. Nope, it was a very deliberate tactic on his part, he also assaulted in the middle of the night. It's one of the most effective ways to break someone. No wonder it's a form of psychological torture. And it leaves no physical scars, which suits these people down to the ground. It causes problems for many years to come (I still have really, really bad insomnia).

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#11951 - 10/05/11 10:17 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
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Monroe, who can tell lasting effects on children? I have to say if I were you I would be locking every door, with younger Psychopaths you can use over the door alarms but in your case I would have cameras hidden in every room also.

Di

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#11952 - 10/05/11 11:14 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Also, I would say that all bets are off if you're not there in the same room.

Who knows what they get up to, the lengths they're prepared to go to and what they're prepared to stoop to in order to gain control and use people for their means.

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#11958 - 10/05/11 02:29 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
momminus1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, I don't know your daughter, but I'm scared for your family. I think bedroom locks are definitely a good idea. It must be difficult for everyone to relax and get to sleep.

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#11962 - 10/05/11 10:50 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
planetchildren Offline
member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46
Psychopaths choose victims that are easy targets such as children. If a frog is placed in boiling water it will jump out, but if a frog is placed in cold water that is gradually heated, it will boil to death. Children that are gradually manipulated by someone they perceive to be a loved one will eventually lose themselves.

Planetchildren

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#11969 - 10/06/11 09:19 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
daddysproblem Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
Planetchildren.. that is an AMAZING analogy. It's so hard to believe that more shrinks do not encounter this.. or as i'm guessing they don't understand what they are seeing. I hope this is changing. All these damaged kids. On the outside.. I seem okay.. but my core, my foundation, doesn't trust ANYONE or ANYTHING.. thanks dad. and who said you never gave me anything.

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#11974 - 10/06/11 12:53 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
TheWindow Offline
member

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 1
Post removed, no Psychopaths are allowed as part of our community.


Edited by Dianne E. (10/06/11 04:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Terms of Service violation

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#11975 - 10/06/11 03:15 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: TheWindow]
Monroe Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Window, speaking for myself, good to have you join this Forum. I'm assuming you are a woman.

I don't know for certain that my 18 yr old is a psychopath. I'm confident that if she is not, she has a related conduct "disorder" (anti-social, borderline...), and deficient in what I would view as basic morals - and conscience. The psychologist I met with today seemed concerned about what he heard about my daughter.

My daughter will undergo an evaluation next week which should give me a level of confidence in her psychological status. I need to determine if I need to remove her from our home. I understand that you can not develop a conscience or a sense of morals. Or experience remorse that could motivate you to work to fundamentally change who you are, and how you interact with people. You would never want to change who you are, correct?

Ironically, I suppose I need some proof in order to avoid feeling guilt and remorse over making my daughter's life as difficult as your's has been. I have loved my daughter since the day she was born. If my daughter is a psychopath, and I know that for sure, I think I can manage through the pain I will feel in shoving her off.

Did you love your parents?
Do you have any regrets?
Did you ever consider, or try to harm them when they cut you off or before that?
Is your husband a psychopath?
What do you want for your own child, can you nurture him/her?
_________________________
Monroe

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#11977 - 10/06/11 08:45 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
Loc: United States
Hi Monroe,

Rarely we get people who claim to be Psychopaths. It makes it uncomfortable for members of the community to have them here. I hope you understand. Considering their pathology it would be impossible to get answers that would be helpful.

Di

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#11978 - 10/07/11 03:24 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daddysproblem]
planetchildren Offline
member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46
I am so sorry that you were raised by a Psychopath. I know what you mean by your core has been damaged.I can see it happening before my eyes with my grandson. I just can't believe that others close by don't see it and intervene. It is so hard for me to sit back and try to let the legal system work.

And like you said, the mental health community doesn't seem to easily identify it.

I feel for children first and then for the parents. It is so hard to grasp the intent of these people.

I don't know what I would do if my child was a Psychopath. Outside looking in, I would go to lengths to protect my other family members. But, I guess some parents stay in denial forever allowing the abuse to trinkle down from generation to generation. Both of the above senarios would be one of the most difficult hands to deal with in life.

I guess the first major step for a child of a Psychopath is to admit their parent is a Psychopath. The same would go for a parent of a Psychopath. Once you admit it, you are on the road to recovery I guess...depending on how you handle it.

You would think that Casey Anthony and Scott Peterson's parents would have recognized something strange about their emotional stability.

Planetchildren

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#11980 - 10/07/11 07:42 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
concerned Offline
member

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 47
Daddysproblem - may I ask what things your Dad did to cause you to trust no one or anything? I ask because of the behavior of my granddaughter, and I can't figure out what her Dad is doing to her to cause it. She is 4.

She has always been shy, but she is getting worse instead of better. When she goes into Bible class (these are children and people that she has been around all her life), she just stands there, looking down, refusing to speak to anyone, even the children. The other little girls come up and hug her and talk to her and she just stands there, no hugging back, no speaking. She won't get her sticker for attendance, she does NOTHING.

We went to a family birthday party, and some family members from the other side (not related to us) were there. She knows them, she's been around them many times. She refused to speak at all at first. To any of us. She kept grabbing my clothes and clinging to me. She kept hitting my husband to get his attention. She wouldn't respond to the other kids. Eventually she started whispering to us, her immediate family, and by the end of the night she would talk if the other family wasn't near.

Her sleep patterns at our house have also changed. Since she was a tiny baby, she went right to sleep with no fuss or problem, but since she was around 3, now when she comes she won't go to sleep. She says she doesn't want to close her eyes.

People are asking if she is being abused.

Its so frustrating because my daughter stubbornly holds on to this guy. I just read some of Diane's posts about hidden cameras, etc, and we live in a state where its not legal to record anything without everyone's consent. How nice for abusers...

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#11985 - 10/07/11 09:06 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: concerned]
daddysproblem Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
concerned... i read about your little granddaughter and i want to cry. i don't know much about my childhood. apparently i had very little value in our family - my nearest sibling was 6 years older and the game was already in play. when i tried to get some info about my early childhood, related to my not remembering all the turmoil and violence in the house.. and how i was never involved (as i remember) he said... (i love this) 'who was going to mess with you? you had no power." so there it is.. i was just nothing in that house.

a psychopath father and what my mom came to be his 1000% ally do not interact with their children on any normal human level. especially with my dad, it's always game like. he has none of the natural human emotions and reactions to any of lifes events. so, as a small human, a child, they need (from what i've read) love, interaction, communication, u know... and with a Psychopath you don't get that. reflecting i see that he never looks at us as an anything but some type of an observer. has NO concern for any of our reactions except that he does seem to enjoy our discomfort (enjoy...relish might be better).

everything in our household revolved around him. he was the only person who had needs. and my mother tended the him only. i will say that physically my mother was a good mother. we were clean, well dressed, well fed, u know from the outside.. we were perfect. but i never had a conversation with my mother.(well actually twice as an adult) she never made your favorite meals. she didn't even know what they were. if you had any problems u best leave them at the door because you better look happy in our house because only mom and dad had any problems and they did everything for us so we had nothing to complain about. like being hungry, being tired, being bored, being anything. i never went to them for anything. i was always cautious of how i interacted with them.

i had a friend who had lost her mother in jr high to cancer.. and everyone expressed sympathy for this girl and the family.. now looking back.. i really didn't understand what the big deal was.. nice huh.. to me a 'mother' was like a robot. kindof a crazy robot because she would act out and we'd come home sometimes and the house would be dark and she'd be in her bedroom. (as i write this.. i become grateful again for having my own life).

i don't know if i'm answering you or not. but a life of being nothing is bad. and then if you add physical abuse.. voila.. i think you get my siblings - or not. for me, i have no skills in negotiating with other people. i'm sharply in tuned to their behaviors. in a partner relationship i firmly believe that i have no real value to them, that at any time, i'll do one little thing.. ask for a little too much.. and they'll never come back.. but first they'll tell me what a piece of crap i am (because that's what i got when i was no longer the cute little happy girl). in other relationships i have no experience in healthy negotiation.. like picking a restaurant or asking my neighbor to be more quiet or so many things.. because we were never allowed to ask for anything.

later in life when i was struggling financially raising my son as a single mom and putting myself through school.. he would taunt me and flaunt his wealth and watch me get uncomfortable (that's an umbrella term for me) with his beady eyes.. and if i ever said that i couldn't afford something or that i didn't have any time.. then i got the yelling and the rant.. you don't think you have time.. your mother and i don't have time.

so, do what ever you can for your granddaughter. i'm not a professional but her behavior sounds like there is also some (diane help me here) violence in her life. i listen to the stories of people trying to help with the children of these Psychopaths and i know the world is oblivious to this problem and always support the parents.

looking back, i don't think anyone could have helped us. they didn't let anyone in our lives except my dad's mom who hardly spoke english.. wow there's a new revelation. wow..
wow, that was fun.. my little rant

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#11986 - 10/07/11 09:26 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: concerned]
daddysproblem Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
concerned...

i have not read your entire story.. but i just noticed that you said your daughter holds on to this guy (he's the Psychopath right). when she is doing this she is effectively abandoning her daughter. it's like my mom.. obviously she had some serious emotional defects.. and that allowed her to totally unequivocally make my dad king. abandoning all of us emotionally. next step was she became his partner in the torture of us.

i have a friend who for some reason keeps thinking her little family problems were as bad as mine. she got pregnant in HS and her mom called her a slut. and she says to me.. BUT CAN YOU BELIEVE SHE CALLED ME A SLUT.. so, i'm thinking.. you've gotta be kidding me, that's it, that's all ya got. anytime any of us ruffled them.. it was attack mode. they would both beat you down - for me it was verbally. from the time i started to not be a little kid, maybe 6th grade. they would bring up my flaws, like bad grades.. what's wrong with you, what are you going to do with your life, you're never gonna get anywhere, your a cry baby, i thought it was your friends that were bad - but now we see it was all you..oh and i would get high scores - like 98% on logic on those standardized test.. boy i never heard the end of that.. oh you think your so logical... blah blah.. with my brothers they beat them, especially one who was tough they cut all his hair off and put his report card on the front door with a note as to why he was grounded. dumped soup on my other brothers head when he and they were having a history argument and he was winning.. i'll show YOU who's right.

so, what i'm saying here is that she may end up partnering with him.. and then who does your granddaughter have... ? she'll be trapped.. a prisoner.. like an animal.. (oh and animals.. maybe get her a pet.. i had a cat.. & i think that saved me.. i had SOMETHING to love and love me back).

again, that was fun... another morning rant. ohmmmm

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#11987 - 10/07/11 09:40 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
daddysproblem Offline
member

Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
diane

i find it highly unlikely that any psychopath really knows they are one. they have no conscience so they can't evaluate their thought process in any rational way. they are pure ID. like a rat in maze. just learning to avoid and obtain various feedback. no plan.. no concern as to the impact on other people.

so i doubt 'window' is a Psychopath.. and you know what - from me personally.. it doesnt bother me..

i have such confidence in my percetions now and my strength and disgust for these Psychopaths that i firmly believe i could even mess up sam vaknin.. i don't believe he could manipulate me in any way (just saw I, psychopath - it was alright - he's just found a 'trick' so to speak.. he doesn't 'feel' anything.

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#11991 - 10/08/11 07:43 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daddysproblem]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2635
Loc: United States
I know but our community isn't for anyone wanting to play games. Our focus has to remain on the victims of Psychopaths. There are plenty of forums out there these days they can go to, we aren't one of them.

Di

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#11992 - 10/08/11 09:11 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
momminus1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
My daughter has known that she's different for quite a while. She's aware that she feels no guilt, loves no one, and will do whatever to get what she wants. She's the one who suggested to me about 9 months ago that she thinks she's a psychopath. She researched why she is so different. I didn't agree with her then. I do now. If they're intelligent enough to mimic emotions and basically role play, I think they know that they are doing it. I think they know that they are not like everyone else.

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#11993 - 10/08/11 09:22 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
daddysproblem Offline
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Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
absolutely.. i lost my focus... thanks diane.

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#11994 - 10/08/11 10:03 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daddysproblem]
Dianne E. Offline

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Posts: 2635
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no problem, I am pleased to hear that you can stand up to them;) We don't even link to other forums due to the nature of what kind of discussions and some of them encouraging Psychopaths to post.

Di

concerned, I thought it was legal to have cameras inside your own home, I don't think the laws apply there but will have to check.

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#12002 - 10/09/11 07:02 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
daughtersonlyhope Offline
member

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 6
Hi, I'm really excited to find this forum. My sixteen year old is a psychopath. And yes, like your child, momminus1, mine knows exactly what she is. Why put on a mask if you don't know you are different, right?

She's very sick, and I'm looking to help her. Just like I'm sure many of you want to help your family members. I believe, even though you can't inject a conscience into someone, you can help their impulse control and give them consequences to their actions that they can relate to and understand. This has been helping so far, on her terms, of course.

What I've come to realize, with the help of her psychologist, is that getting angry for her immoral behavior is like getting mad at a deaf person for not listening to you talk. It's just not something she's wired to do. It's part of her condition. That's helped me see things from her point of view and not become so upset. I think things are going to get much better between us, and it's even better now that I have other people in my situation to bounce ideas off of.

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#12003 - 10/09/11 08:44 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daughtersonlyhope]
planetchildren Offline
member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46
Sorry, so sorry, your daughter is a psychohpath. But, I don't have anything to offer you as far as helping her.

I hope you realize that if you think you are helping her "on her terms" as you say, you are only playing her games "on her terms." Only, you are the one that will get hurt, not her.

I don't believe a psychopath can be helped and I would not want to be the one to try. I try to avoid my psychopath as much as possible.

I am not trying to be harsh, but the effects of knowing one are devastating. I think you need a forum where they are trying to help a psychopath...might be hard to find. I don't believe this is it.

How can you see things from her point of view unless you are a psychopath yourself?


Planetchildren

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#12004 - 10/09/11 09:09 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
daughtersonlyhope Offline
member

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 6
When I said 'her' point of view, I meant her therapist's, not my daughter's. Sorry for the confusion.

There have been devastating parts, yes. The lying and manipulation have been difficult to handle. But I'm not giving up on my daughter.

My daughter can be helped, I believe, and so does her dr. Her impulse control has improved a lot over the last three months. I'm very proud of her for that.

I'm grateful for any productive advice from someone in my shoes.

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#12005 - 10/09/11 10:33 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daughtersonlyhope]
momminus1 Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
I wish you luck. Before I knew what was wrong with my daughter, I too could not give up on her. How could a parent give up on their child? I gave chance after chance. There were consequences for lies and bad behavior. Each time I wanted to believe that she had changed, that she was really trying. In reality, she was just becoming slicker in hiding what she was doing. It was all a game to her-seeing how she could get things past me with my new strategies and determination.

I may be wrong in my thinking. There might be trainable psychopaths. I'm no expert. I do wish you luck, but I also fear for what may lie ahead of you. Each time I thought my daughter was better, only to find out that she was more manipulative and deceitful than ever. Then there were the lies about me to other people. The consequences no longer bothered my daughter. She found that she could move out of our home and into a guy's place. Then there was no controlling her. She didn't need us anymore. She had another place to live.

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#12006 - 10/10/11 12:40 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Hi daughteronlyhope

Welcome from me too. Sorry you have to deal with all of this.

I was just wondering, how do you know that her impulse control has improved? If a big part of being a psychopath is the lying and manipulation, the wearing of whatever mask suits, then my first thought would be that your daughter is just wearing that mask with you (and the psychiatrist). Perhaps the lying and manipulation has just shifted sideways into something else? Or someone else?

I'm quite interested in what the psychiatrist said about understanding how she thinks.

I can tell you exactly how my dad thinks. I've spent a lifetime working on this. I can take a step to the right and step into his train of thought in a split second. This is the tactic I developed to survive him (a psychopath), to try and stay one step ahead and work out where he was at. Essentially I moulded myself around him (and pretty much disappeared in the process). What I wanted never, ever mattered. It was always all about him. His wants and needs always came first.

Unfortunately, in my case, the effort of trying to understand how he thinks was extremely damaging to my own sense of self. What is good about stepping into the mindset of an 'evil' person? I always described him as the opposite of me, a that looking into his soul was like looking into the pit of hell. If you stand on the edge of the abyss for long enough I think you end up thinking about nothing else but the abyss.

You can have no boundaries of your own with a psychopath, because they won't allow it. It's all on their terms, and that is the end of it, as far as they're concerned. They're not interested in other people, because other people don't have the right to exist, in their minds. Other people are only there as objects to serve their needs.


Sorry to post something so downbeat by way of welcome.

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#12007 - 10/10/11 12:40 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Apologies for the typo in your name.

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#12008 - 10/10/11 08:25 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi and welcome, I would give some serious doubt to what this Dr. is telling you and can only guess they aren't giving you the right advice. Just because this Dr. says these things doesn't make them true, not all
professionals are as knowledgeable as one would think they should be. If I were you I would look for another Dr. more familiar with dealing with Psychopaths. Studies do show that any form of therapy makes them worse, not better. It is a hard pill to swallow but I seriously doubt this Dr. is leading you in the right direction. I think he/she are giving you false hope and along the way helping your daughter to become a more skilled Psychopath.

Di

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#12009 - 10/10/11 08:34 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
daughtersonlyhope Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 6
My words are probably no help to people who had psychopaths for parents. Because they were supposed to protect you, and they didn't. And I can't even conceive of how terrible that is for you.

But perhaps I can tell people with children who are psychopaths what's been working for me/my daughter?

Since she knew she had ASPD, but didn't know how to help herself stay out of trouble (that's her only motivation to change, to stay out of jail or juvey. We've had some close calls), her psychologist sort of talked to us about me being her 'seeing-eye conscience.' Yeah, kind of like a seeing-eye dog, but for a person without a conscience instead of people without sight.

And I know it's helping because she comes to me and says. "Mom, I thought about stealing your money today, but I didn't. I don't want to end up in jail." That makes me proud of her. And some days she tells me she did steal and she couldn't help herself. I'm extra proud of her honesty.

She knows I won't judge her anymore, so she's also talked to me about some devious thoughts she's having. I tell her it's okay because she's sick, and I think this makes her feel more like normal people.

But her psychologist warned me that it's like being an alcoholic. She could fall off the wagon any time and suddenly not want to change. I've had to accept that, too.

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#12010 - 10/10/11 08:39 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daughtersonlyhope]
Dianne E. Offline

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#12011 - 10/10/11 09:44 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
My dad has been someone's child too.

If my life has taught me anything at all, it is the ability to see things from many different perspectives. It has taught me the ability to tune into exactly where someone is at and what the vibe is, wherever they're at. Because in my case, it was all about survival. I needed to get where someone was at to work out exactly how much of a threat they would be to me.

So while I am speaking to you from the other side of the fence, so to speak, as the child of a psychopath, I am also someone who has lived through this, worked things out from as any perspectives as possible (mine, my mum's, my brother's, my dad's, his own mother's and his own siblings). And I have come out the other end of this nightmare.


I did have the 'report my dad and have him put in jail' train of thought. You know, have him punished for what he has done.

I did a lot of thinking about this. Many years, in fact. In the end, I decided not to go through with it. The main reason is that what I/we would consider being a punishment has no meaning at all for him.

Being put in jail, well what is that about?
* Being found guilty of a wrongdoing
* Having one's freedom taken away
* Being separated from one's family and friends
* Having a criminal record

None of those things would have any meaning at all for my dad. He doesn't care about 'wrongdoings' and having a criminal record. I mean, he knows wrong from right and he knows exactly where the line is between them. But he just doesn't care, he does as he pleases. In this sense he is fearless. Friends and family have no meaning at all for him. We have no value, beyond the value of objects he can manipulate. So he would never grieve for this kind of loss.

So being in prison would have absolutely no meaning to him. It would just present him a new series of people he can manipulate and exploit.

People like this are the ultimate survivors, if you like. Whatever situation they end up in, they always revert to who they are and use the 'skills' they have to survive.

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#12013 - 10/10/11 09:49 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Also, seeing that lying and manipulation are such core characteristics of this personality type, how do you know that what she is telling you is the truth?

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#12014 - 10/10/11 10:18 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
planetchildren Offline
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Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 46
Starry,

Your words describing your interaction with your father are so much what I can see in my grandson. He is so attached to his mother just in the way you were to your father. It's called survival.

He knows how to dodge his mother when he wants to and how to play her game when he sees that it might benefit him.
Of course, she knows what he is doing.

One weekend when he was with me, we ran into his mother at the mall. He literally was trying to help me dodge her. He put on an armor and appeared to be in control leading me out of the mall. He did not talk about it later. He was very uncomfortable running into her.

I am not sure if he perceives her as evil yet. I think when that lightbulb goes on, it will hopefully make a difference. He will be able to start to heal.

I feel that he will either be overprotective of her or he will despise her.

Did you feel a need to protect your dad when you were a teenager?

Thanks for your posts.


Planetchildren

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#12015 - 10/10/11 10:33 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
daughtersonlyhope Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 6
I'm not sure why she would lie about stealing, and/or wanting to steal. Money was missing and she admitting to stealing it, saying that she couldn't help herself. I don't see how that could be a lie. The money was gone.

Not ending up in jail does mean something very big to her. She's all about freedom and control. The thought of losing that scares her.

I'm not discrediting you at all Starry, I was just saying that what I have witnessed with her 'recovery' will probably not be of any help to you.

Here's what she's been able to talk to me about so far: She says she knows right from wrong because she's been told what it was since she can remember, but she doesn't feel it. Does that make sense? So there's a knowlege there. She says she doesn't understand why she can't feel guilt. And the thing that hit home the most (and, yes, this could be a lie, but I don't believe so): she said if there was a pill to suddenly make her normal, she'd take it.

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#12016 - 10/10/11 10:50 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: planetchildren]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
It's hard to remember back, there's been so much water under the bridge, and I see things from a completely different perspective now. It's hard to think back to how things were when he was in my life.

I was so completely isolated from the rest of the world, so...different from everyone else. Set apart because of the intensity of our relationship, which made me feel very frightened and overwhelmed, but at the same time also special, 'chosen', like we shared something exceptional.

The intensity was all wrong, like being out in the noon desert sun with no shelter. It was blinding and painful, just like being very badly burnt. But then again, this is what these people do.

I remember as well, in that completely overwhelming intensity that left absolutely no room at all for me to be me, and string a train of thought together, I remember these weird shards of feelings. They were like something stabbing me, really sharp and painful. And they were things like 'I know that what he is saying is wrong', 'xyz isn't like that, I know them', 'that's not right'.

I think my recovery was to do with stringing all those things together and creating a narrative (my narrative) round them. It was a narrative that made sense for me, that was true for all my thoughts and feelings.

I think one of the last parts to fall into place was realising the level of deception he had perpetrated on me (and everyone else in his life). Nothing he had said was true, everything had been a lie. Everything he had said had a purpose, and that purpose was to perpetrate the lie that he cared for me, that I was special and important in his life (as his daughter). What he wanted all along was to have power and control over me, and to somehow hoover the life and the goodness out of me. The truth all along was that I was just like anyone else, any other of his 'victims'.

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#12017 - 10/10/11 10:55 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
All I can say then, is I wish you luck.

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#12018 - 10/10/11 02:32 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
daughtersonlyhope Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 6
Thank you , starry. Your situation sounds absolutely horrifying. I don't know how you made it through, but I'm glad you did. : )

I guess, since this is still new to me, I'm still a bit naive.

And thanks, Dianne, for the link. I'll read it over now. I did have one question for you. I didn't see a profile for you or anything (I could have overlooked it). Are you a psychologist, or therapist? Or a victim, yourself? I didn't know what had driven you towards giving up so much of you time to help others.

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#12019 - 10/10/11 03:02 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daughtersonlyhope]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
I would appreciate any advice or opinions on how I should handle things when people ask if my 14 year old is my only child. Sometimes it's easy. I can just say no, that I also have a 19 year old who works locally in retail. It's when things go a bit further that I have problems knowing what to say. I think my fear is that people will get a wrong impression of our family or our youngest daughter. She just started high school and I'm meeting a lot of different parents. I don't want them to be afraid to let their kids hang around my 14 y/o.

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#12020 - 10/10/11 04:18 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Hi Momminus

My youngest daughter followed my ASPD daughter into HS. Although my ASPD daughter was in all AP courses, we had a number of parent teacher meetings because she was falling asleep, or otherwise disrespectful to teachers. She had alienated kids that had been friends and developed a reputation. When my youngest daughter got to school, my ASPD daughter said some terrible things about my youngest daughter - to my youngest daughter's friends and acquaintances. Also told people that she was a special needs student, which is true. Slow learner, "processing/learning" challenges. My youngest works very hard and her teachers and friends respect her, which is important to her. It had taken years for my youngest daughter to overcome self-esteem issues from having to go to summer school, being pulled out of class for special help, etc. So, this was a crushing blow.

I don't know if parallels exist with your daughter, but over time, your 14 yr. old will, I believe, create her own reputation, independent of her sister as my daughter has.

Friends of my family, some who knew my ASPD daughter when she was little, ask how she's doing. I tell them not well. Since I don't elaborate, they don't ask unless they are curious instead of caring. And then I change the subject just shut the conversation off, none of their business.

You have nothing to be ashamed of. Some people I don't know well, but who know our family, may wonder how my 3 girls could come from the same family, and I just don't care what people think. You haven't done anything wrong, and if it's possible for you, that is what I would suggest projecting. Maybe easier for me to say since every situation and dynamic is different.
_________________________
Monroe

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#12021 - 10/10/11 05:13 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
daughtersonlyhope Offline
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Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 6
momminus1

I think Monroe hit the nail on the head.

My daughter is an only child, so I'm afraid I can't help.

But if your younger daughter has some of the same teachers as your older one, then just be proactive in telling them how different your two daughters are.

And be proud of who you are as a mom. It's sounds like you're a great one, so don't let family problems cloud that. Every, and I mean every single family has skeletons in their closets.

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#12022 - 10/10/11 08:15 PM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daughtersonlyhope]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: daughtersonlyhope
Thank you , starry. Your situation sounds absolutely horrifying. I don't know how you made it through, but I'm glad you did. : )


I'm the only one who speaks about him in this way. Sure, the others in our family maybe have a gut feeling about him, and some of them even know some of the things he has done, but I'm the only one who has gone digging and strung everything together and speaks in this way, uses the language I do, about him.

But then, I've had a lot of help over the years. And I've been lucky to meet some pretty influential people (influential in the sense of helping me to understand what's gone on and help me to shape my own story).

I made it through because that's what children do. I think that whatever circumstance they're in, they adapt and make it through. The question I'm struggling with now is how to make good use of the things I've learnt, not to undo what has happened, but how to draw strength and power from them rather than be crushed by them.

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#12023 - 10/11/11 01:28 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
FreeBird Offline
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Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 230
It is so sad to realize, how only a few people would look the problem in the eye. Even less would go and try to solve it. Most people, unfortunately, prefer to stay blind and not deal with it at all.

The world is a terrible place not because there are bad people in it. It's because the good ones refuse to see the bad.

That's one very important thing I realized, over the years.
I still have people who learn about my story and look at me like I am the one who let the Psychopath do these things to me. It got me a few times, but now that I grew really strong, I don't care. My only mistake was to trying to be human to a non-human-person. There is nothing to be ashamed of. Why should we be ashamed of being loving and caring and trusting, true and faithful?

My very good friend told me recently how she admires how I managed to cope with all this. How she admires my strength. She also has a Psychopath in her family. Once you open the door, start talking about it, people eventually follow. Everyone has had to deal with a Psychopath in their life, whether they know it or not.
And all of them should know what there is to deal with.

That's why I have the most respect to all of you here. It takes a great courage to tell the truth. And when things like these stories here happen, the FIRST thing to do is to stand up, and tell the truth.

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#12026 - 10/11/11 03:25 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: daughtersonlyhope]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi daughtersonlyhope, I was crushed to the ground by a Corporate Psychopath over 14+ years ago. When I went searching for answers when my world and life was spun upside down and flat on the ground I went looking for answers. There weren't any forums at the time for victims of Psychopaths. The forum just evolved from there, I consider it a community service and decided that as long as there was a need the forum would be here for anyone in need of understanding.

Di

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#12027 - 10/11/11 04:27 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: FreeBird]
Monroe Offline
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Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 40
Just want to say, Newbird, Starry, parentsonlyhope... very positive, maybe inspiring messages and reinforcement recently here. Thank you, all.

Newbird, got to lift this in particular, "There is nothing to be ashamed of. Why should we be ashamed of being loving and caring and trusting, true and faithful?... It takes a great courage to tell the truth. And when things like these stories here happen, the FIRST thing to do is to stand up, and tell the truth."

Momminus, good advice for us, I guess I needed to hear this.
_________________________
Monroe

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#12028 - 10/11/11 05:02 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: Monroe]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
daughtersonlyhope:

The article on Psychopathy in Wikipedia seems quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

It also talks about the lying. The lying aspect is really interesting I think. The important thing to keep in mind (regarding lying and all the other behaviours they display) is to never judge these people by the standards of our own behaviour.

So you ask, 'why would she lie about xyz?'. I don't think the reason is one that we would give ourselves, or which would make sense for ourselves.

My dad contradicted himself so many times, and so utterly blatantly. But guess what? He just didn't care if he was caught out, or if his story was inconsistent.

At first I thought he was being honest with me, and telling the truth. Then things began to get confusing, as there seemed to be too many things he said and did that contradicted each other. But he seemed to be able to talk himself out of anything and he was so upfront, so convincing. Eventually, I began to suspect that he was lying about some things as there were just too many inconsistencies.

Now, a lifetime later, I think he lied about pretty much everything. It was all a performance, all a facade, all a lie. His aim was to give me what he had worked out I wanted (and believe me, these people have the most incredible way of working out what it is that you want. Even things that you didn't even realise that you needed, they have a knack of putting their fingers right on it). In giving me what I wanted, he kept me hooked, dangling, needing whatever it was that he was giving me. He kept me trapped in his web.

It's taken me my whole life to work this out (and I'm now very middle aged).

So, when you say 'why would she lie about xyz?', my answer would be along the lines of 'because she's worked out that this is really important to you, and she's giving you what you want'. I would imagine she would gain your trust this way? Perhaps she'll then shift her attention elsewhere, perhaps out of the house, cause some damage there? All the while you believe she's trying her best, working hard, being truthful, and all the while you're giving her a roof over her head, food to eat, so she is free to turn her attention elsewhere, use her energies for causing damage elsewhere.

Sorry if that is all quite upsetting to read. It's hard to believe that there could be people like this out there. It's even harder to believe that they're related to you. I know how that feels.

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#12029 - 10/11/11 06:42 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: starry]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
Monroe, I think you've been very positive as well. I can be, and am, very positive around other people. I won't let any blame go to me or my husband. It is only around my closest friends where I let doubt show. I also question myself. I go over the dumbest things that maybe could have made her that way. I do need regular reminders that this all isn't my fault. There was no abandonment, alcoholism, abuse, or any other type of thing that might lead to a mixed up child. I KNOW it wasn't me, but it's just so hard to comprehend how a person turns out this way. I hope you know that you are not to blame also.

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#12030 - 10/11/11 06:54 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
momminus1 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 31
daughtersonlyhope-

I don't want to be negative, but realistic. I must agree with Starry. My daughter would tell me things that she did or almost did- for the sole purpose of gaining my trust. She had told me that she really wanted to change and begged for my help. I thought she was trying when she "confided" in me. She'd tell me when one of the scummy guys that she used to hang out with texted her. I thought that she was really seeing the light. Then, there were all the things that she wasn't telling me. I wasn't quite as aware because she had earned some of my trust. She had a secret phone that I was unaware of. All unacceptable plans were made on that. She'd asked me to visit her at work (retail job) because it was boring. I was so happy that she wanted to see me. The reason behind that was because she knew that after I'd been there, I wouldn't be back that day. She could lie about her hours and spend time with the scummy guys. There were so many ways that she deceived me. I'm sure that I don't even realize half of them. I hope your daughter is the exception. I do wish you luck. Just please be careful.

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#12032 - 10/12/11 08:38 AM Re: daughter with AsPD [Re: momminus1]
daddysproblem Offline
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Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 99
momminus1,

The current theory is that this is primarily genetic. Just random.

We all have physical strengths and weaknesses. We are all unique. Look at any family with >1 children and they are totally different, although raised by the same parents.

Don't look at your child rearing for answers. I'm sure extremes on either side of the coin, permissive versus strict, kind versus abusive, has an impact on the outcomes of these people. But I don't believe it is the root cause. And studies are supporting this.

I still don't understand it fully, but I've seen research that the brain is not fully developed until the early 20's. Maybe there is some type of treatment? Maybe she's just a pain..? I'm just grasping.

I also believe there are varying degrees of the problem. Which explains alot of human behavior.

So, if she is definitely a Psychopath, no empathy and conscience, she's really not concerned about you and is just manipulative.

When I read the posts of parents of Psychopaths, I actually believe that would be worse than being raised by a Psychopath.

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