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#12509 - 01/06/12 12:49 AM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: starry]
blueheron Offline
member

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Starry,

I know your words were meant for NewBird. How wonderful and amazing they are! What you had to say was very healing to me, too. So thanks for taking the time.

My very best to you too, NewBird. You are strong.

(Just because I've gotten quiet here does not mean the s**t has stopped from next door ...)

blue heron

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#12510 - 01/06/12 10:39 AM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: blueheron]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Thank you blue heron. Isn't it amazing how different our stories all are, and how far apart we are geographically, but how we are all on the same journey, and we can gain so much strength and courage from each other's stories and each other's breakthroughs? That gives me so much hope and brings me great joy too.

I've gained so much understanding and insight since being on this forum. I don't feel quite so isolated any more.

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#12511 - 01/07/12 03:27 PM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: starry]
FreeBird Offline
member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 230
starry, take you so much for those words.

I've been wondering what it is, that makes me so sad...

My way of handling problems and fears is to face them. This may be weird for some, but it's just how I am. When I feel fear, I go straight forward and face it. It's instinctual. I hate when fear overcomes me so I'd rather hit before it hits.

So when he did what he dud to me, I didn't totally hide from the world. I was scared like hell but I'd still reach out to people. I wanted to believe that not everyone was like him (he'd made me doubt strongly what is wrong and what is right). I was looking for a proof that most people are good, think like me... Unfortunately, at that time, as he'd made me loose all my true friends, I was left with some people around me, who turned out to be just like him... (I don't know if they're also Psychopaths, but it doesn't matter and I don't even want to wonder) So I was hit badly, and I lost all the hope for this world. I was scared to even talk to people. I was all alone and felt that I was gonna go crazy.
Thankfully, those real friends turned out to be those real friends, and helped when I lost all the hope. I really don't know where I'd be without them.


I was healed, but it breaks my heart to see the world so naively believing Psychopaths. I hate it how people are scared of the truth. I can understand, because I've been there, but it's one thing to be in a relationship where you're blinded and deaf with Psychopaths lies, and other to look at it from the outside, with a clear perspective. People's indifference is really devastating. Everyone has been telling me - "I saw sth was wrong with him but I didn't tell you coz....". Actually my very good friend told me "I didn't tell you, because you wouldn't listen to me back then", which is very true, but also, had ALL of the people told me, I may have started wondering. I actually regret that I didn't go out to people and tell them what was going on and ask for an opinion, coz I may have been saved before it was too late.

I don't know what to do about Psychopaths. They don't fit in the society, but what do you do? Ignore them, not let them get to you - sure. But they will go hurt someone else. Not care about that? Your children will be next...

Being happy and loving and trusting collides strongly with this constant being on the watch...
And I still get these doubts, if he was really a Psychopath... Even after all that happened, and all I've seen.

I love the world but I liked it better when it was clean of Psychopaths. When I believed all people were good deep inside (now Id say - had the same feelings). I guess that's it, that's what hurts me now so much. This part of innocent me, had to die. The belief that being good and honest pays off. It doesn't. I think my will here is over. I have to let it go, and it hurts like hell.

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#12514 - 01/08/12 05:37 PM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: FreeBird]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: NewBird
starry, take you so much for those words.

I've been wondering what it is, that makes me so sad...

My way of handling problems and fears is to face them. This may be weird for some, but it's just how I am. When I feel fear, I go straight forward and face it. It's instinctual. I hate when fear overcomes me so I'd rather hit before it hits.



I've discovered I'm the same. I am proud to say I've looked everything he did to me square in the face now. While I haven't managed to say it all out loud to another person, I've said the words in my head. And I feel I own it all now. There's nothing that he did that scares me any more.


Originally Posted By: NewBird

I don't know what to do about Psychopaths. They don't fit in the society, but what do you do? Ignore them, not let them get to you - sure. But they will go hurt someone else. Not care about that? Your children will be next...


This question caused me a lot of suffering. It tormented me for years.

My counsellor told me 2 things:

* his actions are not my responsibility.

* you can only help other people from a position of strength, otherwise it harms you.

Now I realize that both of those things are extremely wise. For years I felt so responsible for everyone he was hurting currently and for everyone else he was going to hurt in the future. I felt I had to stop him. And I felt he had to be punished for everything he had done to other people in the past and that I had to be the catalyst for that.

At some point it twigged that in thinking/feeling all of this, I was still caught up in his game, in the game all psychopath's play. Like many other situations previous, I was accepting responsibility for actions that were his. Actually, the responsibility was, and still is, his not mine. It's all his.

This was a really difficult thing to come to terms with, as it almost felt counter to everything I believed in. But once all this had dawned on me, I felt there was a space around me that allowed me to feel calm and at peace, and not overwhelmed with the panic of what he might be doing (and we all know what people like this are capable of!). And that was a very healing space.

As to helping other people, yes, it has to be from a position of strength. I almost destroyed myself trying to help other people. Very luckily, I came across a couple of people who understood what was happening and helped me by believing me and giving me the time and space to tell my story, half baked as it was at that point.

I've come to understand that in helping people from a position of strength makes you stronger too, which can only be a good thing.


Originally Posted By: NewBird


Being happy and loving and trusting collides strongly with this constant being on the watch...
And I still get these doubts, if he was really a Psychopath... Even after all that happened, and all I've seen.

I love the world but I liked it better when it was clean of Psychopaths. When I believed all people were good deep inside (now Id say - had the same feelings). I guess that's it, that's what hurts me now so much. This part of innocent me, had to die. The belief that being good and honest pays off. It doesn't. I think my will here is over. I have to let it go, and it hurts like hell.




So where is it you want to get to?

For me, it was a very conscious decision that I wanted to make some friends. Not necessarily ones who had to know everything about me, but who were on the same wavelength. And incredibly, that's come to pass over the past couple of years. Tentatively still, for sure, but yes, I can call them friends.

For me it was also to get in touch with the joy and the innocence and the goodness again. I always knew I was different from him in this way, I always described him as the absolute opposite of me. And I can honestly say that that has happened too. It's not the same innocence as before, it's very different. But it's there.

And I think you can reach those things again too, reconnect with them again. They're just the other side of the grief.

Hope some of that makes sense.



Edited by starry (01/08/12 05:39 PM)

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#12520 - 01/10/12 03:46 AM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: FreeBird]
skybluepaint Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 100
Originally Posted By: NewBird
I love the world but I liked it better when it was clean of Psychopaths. When I believed all people were good deep inside (now Id say - had the same feelings). I guess that's it, that's what hurts me now so much. This part of innocent me, had to die. The belief that being good and honest pays off. It doesn't. I think my will here is over. I have to let it go, and it hurts like hell.



I hear you. It does hurt like hell to let go of that dream, not only of the dream of the person you thought the psychopath was or could've been, but also that loss of your own innocence. From the outside, one might have thought my psychopath was the innocent one. She seemed so convincingly sweet, sincere and I was the one who would help her, rescue her from someone else until someone else could help rescue her from me. I can understand why he believed her story, because I did, too. We all do, because we are suckers and we don't know any better. I had a friend tell me at the time I met the psychopath that if I got together with her, my friend would stop being my friend; that was how averse her reaction was. Another friend told me later that the psychopath had dead, black eyes. Another said she looked down on other people, as if from above. You probably knew all of the things your friends said or thought. You probably saw them yourself, but you made excuses for them, filled in the blanks with wrongly presumed goodness. That is what we do, assume the best in people. It makes me sad that I am now EXtREMELY leery of people in need of help or who have a sob story. I now assume it is simply an appeal to my empathy. I stay away for fear of being used. Not only that, but I more easily use people as if a part of the psychopath wore off on me. Once the psychopath said she could "teach me" how to see the world through her eyes. What a scary, scary thought. I don't want to look at the world with such filth, slime, and sick hatred in my heart, and neither do you. No matter what she did to me or how bad it still hurts, I cannot and will not look at other people and the world that way, with such sheer negativity and hatred.

But for them, I don't think all that negativity, hatred, sickness of spirit is that intense in the way we perceive those emotions. For them, bad feelings, good feelings, they are all really the same aren't they, because there are no genuine emotions attached to them. As the psychopath told me, "I am not like you." I didn't understand that, and still have a hard time understanding it. It is simply hard for the average human to think about what these psychopathic automatons are like. They really are like that, robots with outstretched arms and a big smile, ready to hug you and win you over. Then, they swivel around and do the same thing again with someone else. So, don't blame yourself up about it. You couldn't have known. We always do the best we can with the knowledge available at the time. Now you have new knowledge and yes, that probably negatively impacts the way you view people the world. But, it isn't within you to really believe that most people are bad, because that simply isn't true.

I think you are well on your way to healing. Dealing with and accepting your thoughts help immensely.

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#12529 - 01/15/12 01:44 PM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: skybluepaint]
FreeBird Offline
member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 230
Guys, thank you so much.
I've been feeling a little sad this weekend as well, and after reading a little bit of this forum, I'm fine again. It is truly amazing, how much the Psychopath affected my life. I still have doubts, even though the facts are right there... But every time, reading your stories and thoughts and conclusions help like nothing.

I feel like I should tatoo my whole body like in memento so I can remember what he did...

I think the biggest problem (and still for me a thing to fight, and I dont know how) is how the 2 pictures clash. The perfect person we loved, and the horrible, horrible monster. Both in one. How do you perceive this? How do you get around these feelings of love and fear? One person, who lives in both - good and bad memories?

Really, I've felt like my closest person died. And it's terrible. But this person didn't die. They live, and they hurt you, and they hate you, and they want all the worst for you... even though they'll say the opposite...

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#12538 - 01/17/12 07:23 PM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: FreeBird]
LarryDarrel'sTaxi Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 7
I've read that one of the things that Psychopaths do is read other people. They become masters at it. Since they don't have emotional feelings to go on. They have nothing else to do but to figure out both your positive and negative buttons.
I also read (I forget whether on line or in the "Psychopath Test" by Ronson) that one of the things they do is figure you out so they can become the perfect mate. They are totally maliable because they have no emotional life that their personality is tied to. So regardless of who they are in reality, they will become the perfect mate for the person they choose as a partner. I often wondered how my step-father could stand my mother.. How my real father could still love her. It's because of the fact, that for all her crazy abusive behaviour, to protect herself and get what she wants, she made herself the perfect woman for them at all other times.
I've never heard my mother say that she loves anyone (not including her kids). She has no stories of boys (or anyone) that she loved so much in school or any other love war stories. However, when she has fealt betrayed by my step-father.. She says, "I thought he loved me". Never, "I loved him so much and he hurts me." She never seems like she is emotionally hurt deep down, but more angry that someone got the best of her.

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#12539 - 01/17/12 08:21 PM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: daddysproblem]
LarryDarrel'sTaxi Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 7
I just wanted to second the suggestion of meditation.
(Although, I've been meaning to get back to it myself.)
There are lots of books on meditation that will get you started. Secular ones too. A large part of the practice of meditation is teaching your mind to not dwell. Anyone trying to sell you 'enlightment' is probably doing just that.. trying to sell you something. Meditation is for normal people with normal problems.. Monks and such are on another path that includes meditation.. but your not a monk.
I'm a buddhist myself but that doesn't matter. Here are some things you don't have to worry about if you want to meditate.

.. You don't have to be buddhist.
.. You don't ever have to be concerned with achieveing "enlightment" or any other higher state.
.. You don't need a guru.
.. You don't need or try to make your mind blank (damn near impossible for a normal person.)
.. You're not trying to "not care" about reality

I started meditating for about a year before I went to any workshop or anything. Lots of good books out there like I said. (I would also be very weary of any meditation teacher. There are good ones, but be super diserning and sceptical.)

Just sit cross legged, pillow for your tush. or sit comfortably in a chair. Set a timer for ten minutes. Try not to move, but if you're a beginer and have to itch, do it and get back to sitting still. focus on your breath. just try thinking in, and out. Thoughts are going to come. Sometimes overwhelming so. Every time you catch yourself thinking. Just say to yourself, oh I'm thinking again. And focus back on your breath. You might do this for a while without being able to keep the thoughts from piling in. That's OK. Don't get mad. Don't try to be perfect. Don't try to be "good at it". No matter how many times you get distracted, just get back to focusing on your breath. Just try to do it for ten minutes a day. I've been practicing on and off for about six years. I still have thoughts racing through my head pretty much the enire time. But I've learned to let them not bother me when I'm sitting. That calm.. starts to spread into your daily life. It's not about escape, but acceptance of what you can't change. You still have to do the things you need to do.

Don't think of it as trying to reach a blank state, or higher conciousness or any of that crap.

Just think of it as the world and your brain are like a small child that you just want to sit still and shut up for ten minutes:)

He is a buddhist but I recomend Dharma Punx by Noah Levine.

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#12540 - 01/18/12 04:38 AM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: FreeBird]
starry Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: NewBird
Guys, thank you so much.
I've been feeling a little sad this weekend as well, and after reading a little bit of this forum, I'm fine again. It is truly amazing, how much the Psychopath affected my life. I still have doubts, even though the facts are right there... But every time, reading your stories and thoughts and conclusions help like nothing.

I feel like I should tatoo my whole body like in memento so I can remember what he did...

I think the biggest problem (and still for me a thing to fight, and I dont know how) is how the 2 pictures clash. The perfect person we loved, and the horrible, horrible monster. Both in one. How do you perceive this? How do you get around these feelings of love and fear? One person, who lives in both - good and bad memories?

Really, I've felt like my closest person died. And it's terrible. But this person didn't die. They live, and they hurt you, and they hate you, and they want all the worst for you... even though they'll say the opposite...



This was one of the biggest hurdles for me, and perhaps the one that's taken the longest and been the most difficult and painful. I can relate to the reasons why you're finding this so confusing and painful.

I always felt there was a clash, between what I was feeling and what the psychopath was telling me. The feeling bits were just snippets, all disconnected from each other, and didn't hang together as a narrative (which would have been my narrative as opposed to what the psychopath wanted me to believe). Of course, this is the dynamic they want to set up - their truth over your truth.

I knew I wanted to make my narrative. And I wanted it to be whole and complete, and give me the capacity to explain his behaviour and everything really, from my perspective. So I started unpicking everything I remembered.

Very slowly things started to connect with each other. Things that seemed very weird, or just random, or confusing actually had a place in my narrative. I started off by thinking he was just a bit weird, or eccentric (which is what he wanted me to think). To realising that he'd been telling me a few lies, minor ones, nothing major. At this point my counsellor at the time suggested I had been groomed. I found that pretty shocking, surely I couldn't have fallen for that? Then I twigged there had been some pretty major half truths and omissions along the way. Then it dawned on me that a lot of what he had said had been a lie. Then I understood that the lies were a construct, a way of manipulating me. About this time I saw him do 'the process' on someone else and that was a real eye opener. I could see it really clearly and I understood that this was what he had done to me too. Then I realised that nothing he said or did had been true, that my gut feelings were telling me the true picture. So I started trying to remember those.

Some of it was extremely painful to think about, and I'd throw up or have a panic attack when I started trying to unpick it. But I knew I wanted to get to the other side of that, I wanted to be able to stitch it all together.

I got a lot of insight through reading an abuse survivor's forum, a lot of insight through reading on here, and amazingly, a lot through a woman I became friends with around that time who had worked as a therapist in a secure unit (the sort of place where they send psychopaths who have been found guilty of crimes to).

It took about 5 years of really hard work. I had a couple of breakdowns, found I was unable to work, had to cope with the onslaught of PTSD (which was probably exacerbated by the work I was doing on myself). But I managed to make my narrative. And it's now overwhelmingly the truth for me. There are no gaps any more, nothing that jars, and there is nothing which is in my head that frightens me any more.

There is still work to be done on other areas, but that's another question really.

Hope that helps.



Edited by starry (01/18/12 04:40 AM)

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#12541 - 01/18/12 04:13 PM Re: Could do with some help. [Re: starry]
FreeBird Offline
member

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 230
Starry!

Thank you so much for your answers. I feel like you are my mentor somehow.
It is scary to think theres still so much ahead, but also comforting to think that part of the way is behind me. I caught myself wondering again today, how terrible my life was, jus a year ago... All the pain was back for a second. But then I looked at my life now, and smiled, coz I realized how great it is. I feel so proud of myself. The changes are so big I look at myself as a different person back then. I feel like that was a girl I knew, and this here is me.. now:)

I also realized sth really big today. And it hurts and I cry, but that's OK.
I realized there was no good in all this. Really, there wasn't. I realized, there was nothing like love there. Instead, there was this monster, who was doing terrible things, and hurting me from the beginning, but it was so cruel I couldn't take it. So I contradicted my own self. I can see it more and more clearly now and now I've realized this, and it really hurts. I literally feel raped. I didn't want to acknowledge all the wrong... its a weak and primitive defense mechanism, but there's also not much you can do...

I feel like a hurt child now, really... I feel so weak.
But it's OK. I know I'll be fine.

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