Hello,

Do we have a "top ten list" on how to deal with a Psychohpath? I know that the first thing you need to do once you realize you are involved with one is to cut them off completely. What is 2 - 10? Has anyone written an article or book on the subject?

I think Di said to keep a journal which is definitely a must. Maybe, gathering a few pictures of them to keep in your journal would be a good idea to show their fake smiles and expressions.

Once you have come across a Psychopath, they have most likely caused major trama that you will deal with for a lifetime. As I continue to move forward since realizing that she is Psychopath, I feel that the victim needs to be able know in their minds that they are doing something productive to help themselves, their family, and society.

We need to be pro-active in developing emotional skills and yes "tactics" to deal with these predators. I know that every situation is different, but every Psyshopath has the same traits. Once you've been a victim of a Psychopath, I think you need to be empowered in some way to overcome the feeling of helplessness that you are left with.

Our natural instinct is to fight back and try to outsmart them, but this is what they want. They thrive on "the battle." We need to do something for ourselves. This support group is definitely in the "top ten list."

Any ideas?

Cut the Psychopath off completely!
Keep a journal. You will need it.
Get involved in a support group.
Take the blinders off when it comes to this person. Anything can happen. Never trust them.
Run a background check if necessary.
Read and become educated about psychopathic behavior.
Use the Psychopath checklist to describe your Psychopath. Write it down.
Maybe at some point you can talk to others that have known the same Psychopath.

Planetchildren

Very good topic!

Good Morning...

the problem for many is that these are family members who are intertwined with our other family members. mine is my elderly father. cutting him out produces friction with my relatives. so, i must offer alternatives.

1) my most important rule. keep all contact in my control. i do not answer the phone if he calls. i don't even open mail from him. UNTIL I AM READY. i've had greeting cards sit in my drawer for months. i've learned to be a little scarlet o'hara.. tomorrow's another day - i'll worry about that later.

2) completely accept who he is.. COMPLETELY. accept he can not change. his world revolves only around him. everyone is just a member of his 'court'.

3) initiate contact/communication ONLY when completely READY. not when you're weak.. or even a little average feeling. i only do it when i'm COMPLETELY UNEQUIVOCALLY STRONG. when i'm feeling totally ambivalent about him.

4) stop talking about family. (this one i need to work on). everyone likes to talk about their families. but it sends me into a space where i start comparing and contrasting.. and feeling really really victimized.. and that i totally got screwed in life growing up and now too. i don't have a 'family' (except for my son) and it breaks my heart in ways that are overwhelming. i really need to steer away from any conversation that opens me up to this.. it's unfortunate that my (our? if your a child of a Psychopath) life growing up is nothing like the lives of anyone i know. i even have friends that have been abused.. but all of them had someone in their life that was there for them - i'm sick of comparing.. and it seems to get competitive - ick. i don't know anyone who was completely alone as i was (my mom was his partner and my siblings were gone very early on and so damaged and under his control) so if anyone has any advise on this.. i'd love to hear it.

5) find ways to move forward. (again, i'm working on that obviously). walk the dog, read a book, see a movie, interact with friends (or strangers). leave the scene of the crime... (ie your mind) i watch my dog.. who is always in the moment and always ready for something fun. yea i know it's a dog.. but so what... it works for me.

6) also, (seems in conflict to # 5 and #4) but, sometimes you need to share this and see you're not alone.. so, spend time on this site. find others who have this similar experience. because this is a very unique experience. these people are really not human.. yet we as humans are forced to interact with them. and if you don't really 'know' one you'll never believe it. never.

daddysproblem - this is very wise. Your situation is really much worse than those of us, who only had a relationship with a Psychopath.
Nevertheless it's all the same - as long as we believe in the "humanity" - that's how long we are confused and hurt. Everyone needs to understand, that there are people who are actually animals, that they are not human beings, like us. No one will listen.
If you ask anybody, what is a Psychopath? - They will most likely tell you - a crazy person. And if you explain, they will keep looking for excuses for this kind of behavior - mainly because we all have psychopathic features in us, the only difference is the extent of them, and our ability to control them (Psychopaths also control themselves but in a different way - we think with our hearts, they only think with their head).

daddysproblem, I love what you wrote.

The family conversation thing...I can totally relate. It makes me furious and sad and hurt in equal measure. I hate Father's Day with a passion. I have to avoid everything to do with Father's Day. I want to destroy everything to do with Father's Day. It just feels so unfair.

This is a very good topic.

It gives me the strength to be there for my granddaugther. Sometimes my husband and I just want to go far away, but how can we leave her?

Your granddaughter needs you as my grandson needs me. I don't have to deal directly with the Psychohpath. Thank God! But, I do see her occasionally at sporting events for my grandson. My skin crawls everytime I see her or hear her voice. She is really an annoying person. I've heard many comments about her over the years about how obnoxious she is.

I would really like to hear more comments about how people deal with a Psychopath. There have got to be some profound ideas. I refuse to let her get the best of me.

I think everyone here is handeling their Psychopath in a very intelligent manner. I know we have to take it one day at a time and continue to live life to the fullest. We cannot let a Psychopath ruin our reason for living. That is their intention. So, don't let them win. Their day will come. I believe what goes around comes around. We are not doormats, and we don't have to live like one.

What annoys a Psychopath the most?
What makes a Psychopath go away?

Planetchildren

Planetchildren:

I love your posts. I think I have a couple of answers here, based on what I've done to deal with my Psychopath:


What annoys a Psychopath the most? Not letting them get under your skin. Just being a total brick wall or a sponge--any input to you is either totally absorbed or echoed back in a small way. For me, not talking, repeating back whatever she just said, or answering questions with monosyllabic answers ("Yes,""No,""Interesting""Good for you") lets her know just how uninterested I am in what she has to say without her getting any kind of rise out of me.

What makes a Psychopath go away? Not giving them what they want. No chink in the armor, no response, no invitation to even talk, no money, no drugs, nothing.

These answers may or may not work depending on your emotional involvement with the Psychopath. But it has worked for me (I've had no romantic or sexual relationship with my Psychopath, and no real history with her to speak of). HOWEVER, it has been pretty hard in spite of these things.

Thank you. You're exactly right. That's what I really try to do. I try to ignore her when I have to be in her presence. I do like what you said. I guess the more humdrum we sound when responding to them, the more that really chaps their hide. Yep, that works for me.

Personally, I like the sponge effect: stuff goes in but never comes out (I've had to ratchet it up to the "black hole" effect on occasion).

I mean, if what they need is reaction and chinks in armor, these offer none and also protect us from involvement with Psychopaths.

Hi NoesMama3:

First, I would love to have a friend like your husband to hang out with, or as a neighbor and role model for my kids. I'm sure I would feel the same way about you - you remind me of my wife in some respects, what little I know! Sometimes I just need to have the facts laid out for me, and she delivers the message leaving me with my dignity intact.

Some people with more experience/knowledge than me will weigh in, I'm sure. But, for what it's worth...I would do exactly what you are doing. And I'd suggest that you or your husband not do or say anything to antagonize your SIL, such as explain honestly why you are not responding to her requests, or assisting her.

Since my wife and I have come to understand who we are dealing with (our daughter), we've taken the conflict and confrontation out of our dialogue with her to the extent possible. Your SIL will take an explanation or reasoning and turn it upside down, convincingly making your husband out to be a person that is not in his nature - selfish and uncaring. Minimal contact, giving your SIL as little "material" to work with as possible.

Best case scenario, your SIL concludes she can gain nothing more from you and your husband, and the predator looks elsewhere for a victim and sustenance.

Amen. That's kind of what I'm hoping...starve the cockroach and it'll move on to another food source.

Also, as much as I would love to go off on SIL, she's a master at turning things around (for instance, when I called CPS last year on her, my husband's entire family and most of his friends went out of their way to make my life miserable). So anything I say (or write) to her will undoubtedly be reported to the entire social fabric on that side and twisted into something to give folks an excuse to harangue or abuse me. So, sponge treatment.

As for your predicament...I can't imagine going through and having to make the decisions you're having to make. But I think you're doing the right thing.

This is really sad for me - to get rid of Psychopath you are aware that he goes on to someone else - and someone else will sure hurt like you...
But if you tell them, they won't listen anyways... sad thing is you have to go through, and learn from your mistake, you have to get burned to know all this.
And I think not everyone digs deep like we here do. I bet some people just leave it be, and go on unaware of what a monster they had in their life, probably forever blaming themselves a bit... This is sad.

I wanted to post a separate thread, but I think this will fit perfectly here:
It's gonna be a court case soon for me and the Psychopath. He will most likely be sentenced. Meanwhile, he accused me of some things (bunch of lies). I testified recently, and of course it's not going to court, but the policeman asked that I participate in a meeting with the Psychopath. This is, as he said, what the Psychopath has asked. And I have to go.
He told me (between us two) that the Psychopath wants to blackmail me-although he doesn't have anything to blackmail me with:D His purpose is to not be sentenced in that other trial. I don't really know what his gonna ask, I can assume some stuff. I am not really afraid as I already know I'm not gonna agree to anything he asks. This meeting is held under the supervision of a psychologist and it's purpose is for ma and the Psychopath to "get along".
Of course there will never be any getting along, coz that would mean - go with his demands. This is sth I will never do, no matter the consequences.

The thing is, ever since I received the notice that this meeting will take place, my PTSD is back. I have not had a night with a peaceful sleep. I wake up at 4am and cant sleep. I feel exhausted.

I would appreciate your help here. I don't want to write any details about my story, at least until the trial is over.

Do I just go, and not talk with him? I am afraid that my attitude like this will make me look bad - he will surely play the "victim". I am afraid that if I get into a talk with him, he will manipulate me. Or I will get angry.
I need to be prepared and I don't even know what to expect... I would kill for some clues...

Hi NewBird:

Have you talked to the officer about what protections are available to you? I mean, if you explain this to the officer, your state may have victim/witness protections available (i.e., not having to be in the same room, etc.).

Also, if you explain to the officer ahead of time that, for your own sanity, your answers will be emotionally limited, they may afford you some protection for that.

Just a thought, and I hope all goes well. Also, I hope you can get some rest.

Yes, Ive told him exactly what happened. The thing is the meeting takes place in a room, I have to be alone and we are supposed to "get along" under the supervision of a psychologist.

I think it is so unfair that you have to meet with your Psychopath. Absolutely no good will come from it. It only causes stress and anxiety for you.

Is there any way you can refuse it, saying that it will be emotionally damaging to your health. The sooner you can get out of it, the better off you will be.

I'm sure you won't be able to sleep or have any sense of peace until this meeting is cancelled. Are you ordered by the court to go? If you have an attorney, let him know that this is emotional abuse for you. You have been tortured enough.

I know you are afraid they will think you are crazy, but who cares. You know the truth. Your sanity comes first.

Planetchildren

Thank you all.

This morning I woke up before the alarm, and was surprised to find out it wasnt 4am but 7am:D
I feel good, really good. This thing broke me down, but only for a moment, which I find as a great sign.

I was told I "should" go. And to be honest - a part of me wants to. This is my kind of dealing with problems - face them. It's just something I have to do. Of course I am scared. But it's normal to be scared of this. The important thing is it doesn't get me down for long. I could cancel of course. But this wouldn't be me. I'd rather have those few days of stress, but get over it. I can do it!

I am lucky to have people around me who support me and think like me. This is a bliss. Im gonna have a talk with my good friend before the meeting, he has helped me like no one, and he knows about Psychopaths, had to deal with them too. This gives me enormous amount of strength. My friend even says - it's good - you get to talk with him in front of a specialist. Use this to make them see what a Psychopath he is.

So please keep your fingers crossed for me. I don't know when the meeting is yet, but I will sure let you know once I know sth.


BTW: It's a bliss to be able to share with you, whoever you are, wherever you're from. This also gives me so much faith in humanity. Makes me believe that it all makes sense. I'm not doing this only for me, I'm doing it for all the good people out there. Thank you guys!

Hi NewBird, great attitude. Is there a way you can request for the meeting to be taped?

Try to stay very focused, don't let any of his "that look" or smirks get to you. Keep in that neutral zone and when you see yourself start to move out of that position, take a breath and be neutral. Many times the victim can get rattled, rightfully so and look like the one who is in the crazy box. If you need a minute to think of an answer, just ask for the question to be repeated. Keep things simple and focused. You are going to do great. Use the old speak when spoken to tactic, if he starts spilling a bunch of lies, remain composed until it is your time to speak. I hope your friend can be outside the room or in the car waiting for you so you will have someone there when you are finished to support you. We are here for you cheering you on.

Di

Dianne, thank you!

Great idea, I am gonna tape the meeting with my phone in my pocket or so.

I talked with my good friend. We established it's gonna be either me going there, and keeping it all brief or, we also think maybe it would be better to just cancel. We were discussing (he-my friend- knows this Psychopath himself) what is it that the Psychopath wants. And with the conclusions we think it may be better to cancel. Because this is the Psychopaths "last resort", and maybe not going there would be the best way to say what I am gonna say anyway at the meeting - "no matter how much you think you can manipulate and terrorize me I will not cave in".
Still, I am a little concerned and curious about what he is gonna do. It may be a good thing to see what he is about. And I am pretty sure I'm gonna do great. My idea was to tell the supervising person straight on - what he did to me and tell them that I will only talk with the Psychopath as long as he tells the truth and is straightforward.
And if the Psychopath starts any kind of lie - or even the slightest manipulation - Im just gonna get up, thank for the meeting and leave.

I decided to wait with the decision. I think I'm gonna go, but I still have time to think.

Hi, I would ask the shrink to record the meeting, unless you are in a state that allows one person consent, just for the record I would ask them to record the meeting.

Di

Newbird...

One little piece of advise. make and maintain eye contact. always stay focused on the knowledge that this person has no feelings.. he/she will probably never back down, but will be on alert.

when i want to have an 'effective' conversation with my father, meaning one where i don't ruffle his feathers, i speak to him as if i'm speaking to a boss you don't like or trust. if i don't do that he will really get ugly and pull out all the amo. dragging me from one random awful thing to another.

Eye contact - hmmm, I was thinking of actually avoiding it.
You think I should look him in the eyes so that he knows Im serious? I don't follow:D

Since I have an amazing life now, all the feelings are almost completely gone. So I think it's gonna be an easy talk - me being totally neutral to this and just saying there is nothing I can do, you (the Psychopath) are the one who is responsible for what you did, and I am just doing the right thing, telling everyone about it.

NewBird, believe me HE is watching YOU. With his eyes, his ears, he is so intuned to your energy. Like an animal.

So I think a stance of strength is good and effective.

My father, even on the phone.. is in tuned to what he hears. He gets pissed if I'm preoccupied either physically (like doing the dishes) or mentally (not actively listening.. you know with the uh huh and other sounds and comments). If I want to piss him off, all I need to do is challenge him. He's totally illogical - totally. So the opportunities to point that out are endless. So I will guess this is a commonality with Psychopaths. No logic. So if you want him to look imbalanced.. calmly challenge him.

I'm not sure what you want from him.. like what kind of reaction.

Now as much as I say this.. getting my dad to do something is pretty much impossible for me. I can calm or anger him.. but I can't manipulate him to act. Kindof interesting. I keep thinking that I would like to do this.. but that would be too much energy from me.

daddysproblem - I am still amazed how what all of you write here, those little details - how they correspond to my situation - it was the same for me - my Psychopath would not accept a talk without my constant attention. If I said: "aha" too many times in a row he would get really upset.

Challenge him - hmm, in what way?
I guess it would be enough to just say I will not accept any kind of manipulation or lies, and should he try any - I will leave. This should piss him off enough at the start for him to get lost.

NewBird,

Challenge? Funny question. I understand it intuitively but to explain it. He's deceptive on every level and revisionist and self absorbed.

Let's see. He may want me to do something for him. I say I can't because 1) I have to work or 2) I am not feeling well 3) I don't like that restaurant. these are challenges to him. he's pissed now because he's not getting what he wants.. so his responses are 1) I worked my whole life taking care of everyone, EVERYONE... or 2) Sick? you're not feeling well? You're mother and I aren't feeling well. 3)We've been going to that restaurant for years. It's very special to us.- on the restaurants he actually gets pissed if i don't go to his favorite place when he's NOT around - it's like a religion.

When I'm on the phone with him I can't be doing anything else because he can tell. It pisses him off. If her hears me at all, or senses that I'm distracted - that's a challenge because he get's pissed and angry.

Any kind of logical communication.. he's pissed if it contrasts with what he wants at the time.

I actually lived with them when my son was little (i was still minimizing the problem) and he brought a dog home.. and boy did i need a friend in that house.. and that dog knew it and we bonded.. man - he didn't like that. She became my dog - I loved her. (I believe my pets have saved me - gave me the love I needed) So, he actually got another dog - so now there were 2 big dogs in the house for years. So after I moved away... I needed someone to watch her... so - although he never offered... i did a really brave thing (cause he does NOT like to be asked for anything) I asked if he could take her.. and he said.. what? what? I can't have 2 dogs in this house? WTF.. YOU brought BOTH dogs into the house?

It is a constant continuous illogical experience - always peppered with rage. If you don't fall into it.. and I guess it's called co-dependent (mother and brother) or something? You'll go mad interacting with him.

Anytime I assert my needs or wants is challenging to him.

Hey, even a yawn when your talking to him is a challenge. I have alot of issues - I'm such a lucky girl.. who said daddy never gave me anything.

Off topic.. kindof.. so anyone reading this.. please what are the people called who are sucked in to these Psychopaths? How do they get so lost? As I wrote above - co-dependent? But it must be more than that. My mother and now my brother are completely sympatico with him - minions. Actually my mom with alzheimers (induced by torture of Psychopath and brother) in her confused state was a total mina bird.. yes dear, your right dear, you had to dear - when he knew she was not all there - it drove him NUTS - and he and my brother were abusive. And now unbeknownst to me and my son, they unilaterally put my mother in a home - and brother has all of daddy's attention. Been working on that for 62 year.. score.. done.. the work paid off. The day after they put her in (yesterday) (which in actuality is the best place for her - anyone would be better than them) I called to ask how things were.. holy smokes.. the rage.. and now (i mean wow instantaneous she's gone one day and my brother sounds just like my mother did) they ganged up on me - one on each phone.. excerpts: "we've been talking about this for 12 year" "why would we discuss it with you/son?" " you don't care, You're not here" (we can't be 'here', he moved my mom out of state.. so we should follow them?) Who says this? You can't fix crazy (i know it's you can't fix stupid).

My son says it's time to cut them off. He's devastated by this. (he was heart broken when my dad moved her). My mom (no prize - i'll say that - she's a pretty mean 'you know what') was different with him. Which until he was in his teens worked for all of us. They spent alot of time together when I was working. They had a really funny relationship. It was sweet. I think she finally had the freedom to love someone. It kept her busy for daddy Psychopath so he could 'do his thing', so he encouraged it.

I think I need to go to Alanon meetings.. my one friend said that's where people like US are Because they are NOT in my realm. I just hate this S*@t and feel horrible that I wasn't savy (?) enough to have kept my son away from this. damnit!!!!!

I already wrote about it. I think it corresponds very well, since any kind of relationship with a Psychopath is a kinds of addiction.

daddysproblem - you basically strengthened my belief in how I should behave in the meeting. I'm gonna lay out the ground rules, and keep cool. Any kind of manipulation will be cut at it's start and I won't let him get to me. This will be a good chance to show him it is totally over in my eyes and that I will not back down, no matter what.

It is easy to say "Cut off the psychopath!".

But, what if the "psycho" is the mother of your children?
And you whant to see you children grow up!

That is a problem I was unable to solve!
I divorced the psychopath, but mothers always get the custody, I realize now.

It is a hell .to live witha psychopath.
But, it is even worse to divorce one!

Father. First of all, I am so sorry for your plight.

Now.. you need to do anything you can to save your children and reduce her influence. Mothers do NOT always get custody. I would definitely always keep trying to get custody if I were you. But even then you now have children with a Psychopath mother. BAD... VERY BAD. Like they say, until death do you part.

I would make sure to utilize the mental health community in the form of therapists for your little family. You can only make the best of the situation, I doubt you can eliminate the problem.

Good luck.. and use this site to provide you with the support you will need. These Psychopaths are rare and slick.

Hi,
I found your top ten list really helpful. Thank you so much.
Sometimes we find it hard to accept. We must do it for our own safety. Our healthy life.
Love,

Number one on my top ten list comes from a therapist I saw for a short time.

1. Treat the person as if they are senile or have dementia.

Can you direct me to where I find the rest of the top 10 list.....Thank you

Hi becky, welcome to our community. At the top you will see what page you are on, you are at the end of the discussion thread and are looking to be on page 1 to view the rest.

Di

I left my relationship with psychopath after telling him "thank you for all the good that we had in our relationship" and we just want different things.....I was thinking that saying these things would help me to let go of my anger and move forward. I still am so hurt and completely grossed out that I was dancing with this animal....That I had him in my bed....around my children.....I hope in time I can let go of this nauseating feeling....I was always taught that there is good and bad in everyone. It's so hard to get the concept of pure evil....Do these people have their hell on earth?...Do they face judgement....karma....it makes me really rethink so many spiritual concepts i've been taught..

Hi Becky,

Can I ask how he reacted to you leaving him?

My psychopath flipped out when I left him, even though I told him I loved him and he meant the world to me. He's left me a million times and I've always taken him back. This is the first time im ignoring him for good.

I'm just curious xx

Hi Curious....Well this is actually the 2nd time I've left him without running back immediately. I hope to God i'm done with the insanity. This time is different I can totally say i'm scared of him.....as well as being totally grossed out. I can only hope these feelings will continue forever.I left him by telling him that there where things in the relationship that weren't meeting my needs.He of course screamed at me and told me This is was deal breaker (in so many words) AND WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO..YOU TOLD ME YOU WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT THAT AGAIN..which I never said that ( the topic was ..stop disappearing (hours, days of disappearing), start contributing financially emotionally and ) ..This of course was after way too many chances....

This relationship was crazy.....abusive....controlling....manipulative...and yes scary.
Well let me also tell you the real reason that pushed me over the edge was the fact that for 2 yrs we had been talking about going to see his friend in Ohio ..(we never went anywhere that I didn't set up or pay for). Well one night while driving to a restaurant he says ...soo... excitedly...I'm going to Ohio for the wkend!..I was shocked! I said I thought we were going together?( We never spent any time together to speak of after the first few months). His response was well i'm driving a camper down with someone and if I really want to come He can put a pillow in the back but I won't like it..(it was an extremely old, dark, filthy camper). I knew he was going somewhere (probably not Ohio)...and I knew he was going to or about to cheat on me (again.....I'm sure he never stopped)....It's scary how excited he got about trying to lie to me and get away with it.

I haven't heard from him yet(from what I understand from this site it's a matter of time). It's been (almost) 3 months. He did call my friend and asked her about me several wks ago. The longer time goes by the more I think about (remember) things....Bad things..Like when I had just caught him cheating on me with a woman who worked close to me at a convenience store. This went on for several months and she almost moved in with him!)I use to see his truck there all the time and it never occurred to me he was interested anyone else...I thought he was playing the lottery.after that I forgave him and he said he didn't ever want to hurt me again and gave me a diamond (he never took the blame for cheating everything was my fault...(I didn't think I cared that much for him)....blah blah bla) and then proceeded to have ah sexual affair with a woman who had just opened a bakery with her husband at the end of my street!...I would pass by his truck all day long and he would tell me he was just getting cookies,and when I asked what he was always doing there he'd say WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT ME TO DO GO TO THE OTHER BAKERY!....

He never visited any other bakery or coffee house before this place opened.Everyday after work he would go straight there before calling or seeing me....btw I worked about 300 yrds from the bakery as well.....This was the first time I broke it off completely with him..it lasted 2 months . Then we had a tornado in town and he called and asked if I was alright and said he loved and cared for me and his parents so much and would never want to lose any of us. Then I went back for more....and I broke up with him another time but I couldn't stand the thought of being with someone else and that he didn't even care to call...so I kept calling him and chasing him to get him back....after 2 months we got back together ( he would not respond in any way to me I found him one day in a parking lot and confronted and begged him to come back...after his reluctance...he did)I was crazy with out him! ...and I thought things were different...WRONG>

I feel crazy! Why the hell did I allow this to happen..and continue with this man? I need to get my head back on straight.....I feel like I had satan himself in my life....I sound nuts. Thanks for listening....it helps.

You don't sound nuts becky. All the chaos, the confusion, the blame, the constantly shifting goalposts, the voids...they all sound very, very familiar.

Hi Becky, I agree with Starry, I could have written both what you say above, and what Starry said as a description of my own Psychopaths relationship.

That was several years ago and I still dread ever hearing from him, in case I am tempted by the dream, the lies, the false promises and the manipulation to go back again.

This forum and everyone's posts help remind why that would be disastrous. It is astonishing to me how similar so many difference people's experiences are, they really do have an mutual MO don't they?!

Thank you so much Smokey..for validating this craziness.....nobody understands.....except very few....this forum true and the people on it are true gifts....