Thanks to everyone for visiting with me about my MIL psychopath. It sure helps to put some order to what these people do, and realize that there's a pretty consistent pattern. And to realize that a lot of the time, what they do to us is not necessarily personal -- it's because we're convenient or we're in the way.

Now I have a new set of questions, and they are all threatening to tumble out at once. The more we have had to deal with MIL this past year, the more MIL's youngest daughter plays into the equation. (Let's call her SIL. Also remember that MIL is a step-mother, and that makes SIL a step-sister.)

What I can't seem to figure is, is SIL a psychopath too? Or has she merely fit herself into her mother's mold for her so she can get along? Or does she not realize other mothers are totally different than hers? Aaack.

SIL is now the arms and legs of crippled old MIL. As far as we can tell, she also sees no problem breaking the law involving all of the family estate issues. She'll do whatever her mother directs, without question, and is quite blase' about it. When confronted about not telling her mother "no," she tries to make you feel bad by saying that SHE is honoring and obeying her mother (implying that you probably don't).

She is preening and gloating in her "victory" in getting total control of the entire estate over the protests of the rest of the siblings. In fact, she pretty much fits the psychopath list of traits herself. She's always been the victim, she's never sorry. She grew up with some kind of learning and attention disorder (she's in her 60s now), so she can't keep track of what lies she has told you. If you point out the discrepancies, you get either what my husband calls the "mumble-chuckle" coverup, a misdirection, more lies, or steely silence with cold hateful eyes.

The day husband's Dad died (two weeks ago), my husband was able to get SIL to blurt out part of why we were being treated so poorly by others in the family. She shouted at him that they were all scared to death of him because he was going all over the place threatening to sue them all. He was dumb struck and had no idea what she was talking about. All I could think of was: I wonder what they have done that they know they should probably get sued for? When he said to her he had never threatened doing any such thing, she said sure he had, all the time, uh, just the other day. What other day? We have severely limited our contact with them to almost nothing, so when was this threat? And as my husband is later relating this to me, we are both looking at each other going HUH? HUH? It is so ridiculous it is almost funny; pitiful, actually, but no, this is deadly serious.

(So, is that a ruse to find out if we are thinking about suing? Or do they really believe what they have projected onto us? I believe they would not hesitate to sue if someone did to them what they are doing to the rest of us. I don't know if she's smart enough to come up with such a ruse. Or is their untrue accusation a way of justifying their illegal actions to themselves or others? "You were threatening to sue us all; you made us have to take control from you." The "you made me hurt you" defense.)

It's probably not worth trying to separate out whether she has always gone along with her mother because she is emotionally indebted to her somehow, or whether she herself has the disorder. (We know she's financially indebted to MIL.)

Today we were talking about this -- it's our constant burden -- and my husband said SIL's older sister (now deceased) was even worse. I did not happen to know the older sister very much, not having much opportunity, and was a bit surprised to hear him say it. She was also always the "victim," but apparently she was quite cruelly verbal because she was brilliant (and looked like a model). She was married about four times, and I'm not sure who treated whom the worst. She gave as good as she got, I'm told. And yes, it was always all about the money, the prestige, the appearance, the glamour (a bit of N in there). The older sister and MIL were apparently soul sisters, and little sister always felt left out. Older sister's middle-aged daughter is pretty much a basket case, and her son is totally estranged from the family.

Okay. All of that to ask this -- I have been looking for some resources about the behaviors and what becomes of adult children of psychopaths, and don't seem to come up with much info. I want to know if MIL's two daughters were and are pitiful victims who couldn't get away, or didn't know any better, or psychopaths in their own right.
As long as I'm asking, are there any members here who have seen a whole family line of psychopaths? I think at least one of SIL's sons is one too. I'd be interested in comparing notes.

Thanks to this group, I am no longer asking WHY they have done all of this damaging, cruel, destructive activity. I am now trying to figure out if it is worth fighting back. There is quite an estate at stake.

Thanks very much!
blue heron

Hi blueheron, due to the genetic component if these other relatives fit the bill by not having a conscience which is the dividing line between us and them. I remember years ago when people would talk about this relative and that relative before there was much information I found myself wondering if they were just seeing Psychopaths everywhere but in reality it does run in families due to genes so if it quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

If you plan on making a move to secure your financial part I would get a very tough attorney and make that person the contact so they aren't intruding on your life. My mother passed away first and her husband screwed my brother and sister and I royally, guess who got the largest part of our mother's assets? His daughter who is a drug addict married to an ex convict. There was nothing we could do about it but I did make the one relative of his sign a paper to never contact me for as long as I live and any communication had to come via the attorney. I also made her sign to not mention my name at their memorial for their ****** father. Watch the attorney carefully, this bozo attorney told the one vile relative of the estate sale, he never bothered and lied and said he had given the attorney our list of things that belonged to our mother when she was married to our father. My SIL found the estate sale listing on Craig's list so we had to buy what we wanted and some of the more expensive items weren't there so won't know until I get the final paperwork what happened to the silver set etc. The attorney should have notified us ALL but just informed this vile relative of his and she never told us. That was the duty of the attorney, so keep your eyes on any legal person you work with.

First I would put an emergency hold on the funds, depending on where you are living. It is not unusual for families to be at war under the best of circumstances over inheritances so there are laws out there to protect your interests.

Di

Thank you for the feedback. You are right, even in the best of circumstances, families dealing with death and estates can go right off the deep end. People you would never guess, will do the awfullest things; we keep hearing more and more stories. Throw a psychopath into the mix and it defies belief. We have a friend whose father remarried a young woman, who somehow got everything willed to her, and she by golly took it all -- the family home, the belongings, the cash, all of it. Everything the heirs had once been promised, she took.

It makes me grit my teeth to think you all had to go to the estate sale and buy your own mother's things. That is just wrong -- uncaring, self-centered, greedy, cruel! The executor of the estate should have given you all those things.

Looks more like an attorney is in order for us, even if only to find out what "could" be done.

I will have to hold on to myself -- not only do I want those two psychopaths to put things back they way they were, but also get into deep legal trouble for breaking the law. They're too old and infirm to go to prison, but they could sure be fined every penny so that nobody gets it. How ugly of me. (And probably dangerous.)

Thanks, the information and ideas are truly helping. Let me see what I can do this week about an attorney.

blue heron

Hi blueheron, you might try contacting an elder abuse organization to see if they can provide a referral for an attorney who is used to dealing with these kind of issues. I would at least find out your rights so you don't second guess yourself in the future and can make an informed decision now.

As far as the estate sale, my mothers husband lied to us about giving it to the attorney, however it was the duty of the attorney to notify us and she only notified the main whacko step daughter (the devout Christian, hah) and she didn't bother to inform us and lied about it, she is truly evil, however the final fault was the attorneys. Even though this evil person hated my mother in life she refused to even give us a pinch of her ashes. We wrote to her and asked for some because we wanted to take them to Montana where my mother was born and spent the happiest time in her life. She refused and insisted they all be combined with her "step" dad and they did the scattering. It is funny how people proclaim to be so close to someone and they never did a single thing to care for their "step" father, that was left to my brother and I to do. They sure had the time to make our lives miserable by holding a memorial and not giving us any of our mothers ashes.

All in all the attorney was/is a worthless piece of junk and is at fault. She was appointed the executor by my mothers husband.

I hope you can find a good attorney and the elder abuse organization can possibly help you find one that can at least advise you of your rights. It sounds like there is enough money on the table and if you can prove they had documents signed by your husbands father who was not all there you might have legal standing. I would guess this kind of thing is something an elder abuse organization deals with all the time.

Di

Checking in to say the bull**** continues, except we stay pretty much away. My hub kind of thought things would quiet down once his father passed away, but it didn't. I told him so ...

We were very pointedly NOT invited to ANY Christmas celebrations of ANY kind with ANY of husband's family. Good. What a relief. If they think they're hurting us by snubbing us on the "biggest day of the year," they should see me doing the happy dance and saying "Yessssssss!" Anyhow, we don't like about half the things they said were on their menu. Hmm, I think they knew that.

Husband does go next door once in a while to do reconnaissance, and last time found out some more amazing things. I don't know why they admit that stuff. In fact, SIL pretty much bragged about how brilliant one of her moves was. Except it is highly illegal. I can't figure out if she is so ignorant she doesn't know any better, or if she doesn't care as long as it worked out the way she wanted it to.

This whole thing is very weird. It's like the only time they will talk to us is if they are trying to gather info, but my husband stays so quiet that they get nervous and start jabbering to fill the silence, and before long they are admitting crap they've pulled. I don't quite get it. Do they not think we'll do anything about it?

Yes, we'll be seeing an attorney.

The more I look back over the years at some of the things about them I have wondered about, the more it looks like there's really not much intelligence in there. They have survived their learning disabilities and their backward country ways by bullying and bluffing their way through.

We were going back east to spend Christmas with my family, but for several reasons we were not able to attempt the drive. Not only have we been watching the strange weather, a couple of trusted advisors strongly suggested we stay here. Anyway, we are having Christmas with a couple of neighbors and none of us is going to cook.

Merry Christmas to everyone. Be kind to yourselves.
blue heron

Hi blueherron!

Well you sound good.. & ENJOY the holidays! I'm starting my, "what I want for new years eve celebration," corner of goodies. The weather this way is supposed to be bad too. & Christmas is about Christ's birth, so really it's much more than the trappings anyways... you know that one ... My fav is usually Thanksgiving, "with," others but this yr I was so wiped out.. my brother & his family came to town & it was good to see them. He went through an unwanted divorce & his ex is a looloo too, full of herself, not sure why really. He started dancing lessons after she left him & likes to go dancing.. he is never for lack of social life/ that, his work & kids keeps him busy.

There are people who are all about themselves & frankly if they are upfront about it, it makes no dif to me, but the ones that pretend to be one person & are NOT that way at all.. grrrrrrr & that describes ex h Psychopath!

All of the lines he used turned out to be b.s., meant NOTHING to him, it was a lure.
A friend of mine yesterday was SO disgusted when we talked; she has seen me struggle so & she knew him, from the church we attended & she is furious at him. She called him bum.
I've had others say the same to me about him. He seemed to so easily move into my life & turn it upside down, take NO responsibility at all for the damage or debt & then just moves on to OTHERS. There is No conscious. He claims all of these prophetic gifts.. that do NOT come true on his end.

I'm glad you are not going there & I pray you enjoy your Christmas, you & hubby & your immediate family.. if you have relatives/friends nearby to share it with. You know, I can forgive but. That does mean ignoring what is real.

My health is so bad lately that I have amped up my own healing process, personally, vits/ healing herbs, more exercise/ trying to bring myself back around to feeling good & with energy & I think I may have figured out how to rise above this. The stress of it all zapped my own body's ability to survive nearly (with the disability I have) but I'm determined to rise above it all. Been getting the natural sea salts, wonderful spices/herbs.. & I think I've figured out how to make this work (healing).

I always go to the place that eventually he will be staring his Maker in the face & have to deal with all of the turmoil he causes. What he said to me amounted to nothing really, in the end, it was a pack of lies from his mouth into the wind.

I think I may have reached bottom in my circumstances, as to my own self in healing from this nightmare. He used me, I was a pawn in his game.. but he didn't finish me off.

A blessed Christmas to you, 1Healing. I see you are being kind to yourself, giving yourself healthful treatment. I know how it is to try moving toward health -- I'm on disability. Keep after it and do not be afraid to ask for help. It may be more blessed to give than to receive, but in order for someone to give, someone has to be the receiver. And perhaps it's your time to receive for a bit.

Merry Christmas from blue heron

Treachery in the ranks.

Today SIL calls my husband to find out what we are bringing to the Christmas Eve dinner!

Ooooookay? We kind of never were invited, but we were somehow supposed to go anyway?

He tells her he didn't know we were coming, and that we had other plans. (And in the background I wanted to jump up and down and cheer him on.)

How dare we have "other plans!" And she pulls the pity/guilt card. Oh, but Mother has congestive heart failure ... then she leaves the suggestion hanging so you can strip your own gears trying to figure out what she means. Of course, she means for us to feel guilty because this might be MIL's last Christmas, and how could we be so heartless.

Except husband says, "We never said we were coming."

And of course, SIL says, "Oh, but I thought you said you were. In fact I think I remember when you did."

And he says, "No. We didn't." Good for him. I have been talking to him about this group and how it's helped me. And how we have to take care of our own mental health and well-being, because no matter what choice we make where the psychopath is involved, they're not going to like our choice. We discussed that some, and he agreed that historically with MIL and SIL, it didn't matter what choice he made, it was never the right one. So if we can't win, we'd do well to make the best choice for ourselves. That made sense to him.

After a bit more of this tit-for-tat, SIL says to him, "Well, I've enjoyed our little visit." Very ominous. She's just spoiling for any reason to completely cut the rest of the family out. She can try hanging this over our head if she wants, but it won't work. Not any more.

So this evening, after a whole afternoon of thinking about that phone call, I ask him if he's still doing okay with that decision, and he says, "I feel great."

They'll never get it. If they have a busted amygdala, there's no use in talking. (But I'm sure it's far from over.)

Blessed Christmas to all,
blue heron

So pleased for you guys!

What a great husband you have too, he totally gets it and knows how to deal with it, how to establish those boundaries.




Totally.

I'm so proud of our little corner here. And so proud to be able to help each other when we need it, and share in each other's progress too.

A very blessed Christmas to you too

Hi Everyone,

Like the research suggests, I strongly believe there to be a genetic component to Psychopathy. I have one brother who is a full-blown psychopath and 3 other brothers who have psychopathic traits and various degrees of mental illness/substance abuse to go along with it.

I posted a lot last year to come to terms with how my psychopath brother (who has cancer) stole our mother's car while she was in a hospital bed with a broken pelvis and crashed it. Adding insult to injury, he had no money to pay the deductible to get the car repaired. While she was in the hospital and nursing home, he'd go to her condo and pilfer through her cabinets until we removed nearly everything of value (checking account, mad $, etc.) He's previously looked at porn on her computer and persuaded (pressured her) to pay for gas money, etc. Adding further insult to injury, once she returned to her home after 6 months of hospitalization, he insisted "YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOT TO VISIT MY MOTHER!" when he had a full blown infestation of bed bugs that he refused to get exterminated. We threatened to get a restraining order against him which seemed to work.

My sister and I paid someone to help him apply for SSI so he wouldn't need my mom (who is now 84) for his financial assistance. In the last year or so, he's blown through about $12,000 and taken three trips out west.

But, I will tell you . . . he isn't pestering my mom for money anymore which is a tremendous relief to her and for my sister and I so for that I'm grateful. I have nothing to do with him other than to make sure that he isn't exploiting my mom.

And . . . you know what? My life is a lot better without him in it. With most people, we need boundaries. With my brother, you need walls. It may sound callous, but this will only end when he dies.