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#12175 - 11/02/11 11:07 PM A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!!
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Thanks to everyone for visiting with me about my MIL psychopath. It sure helps to put some order to what these people do, and realize that there's a pretty consistent pattern. And to realize that a lot of the time, what they do to us is not necessarily personal -- it's because we're convenient or we're in the way.

Now I have a new set of questions, and they are all threatening to tumble out at once. The more we have had to deal with MIL this past year, the more MIL's youngest daughter plays into the equation. (Let's call her SIL. Also remember that MIL is a step-mother, and that makes SIL a step-sister.)

What I can't seem to figure is, is SIL a psychopath too? Or has she merely fit herself into her mother's mold for her so she can get along? Or does she not realize other mothers are totally different than hers? Aaack.

SIL is now the arms and legs of crippled old MIL. As far as we can tell, she also sees no problem breaking the law involving all of the family estate issues. She'll do whatever her mother directs, without question, and is quite blase' about it. When confronted about not telling her mother "no," she tries to make you feel bad by saying that SHE is honoring and obeying her mother (implying that you probably don't).

She is preening and gloating in her "victory" in getting total control of the entire estate over the protests of the rest of the siblings. In fact, she pretty much fits the psychopath list of traits herself. She's always been the victim, she's never sorry. She grew up with some kind of learning and attention disorder (she's in her 60s now), so she can't keep track of what lies she has told you. If you point out the discrepancies, you get either what my husband calls the "mumble-chuckle" coverup, a misdirection, more lies, or steely silence with cold hateful eyes.

The day husband's Dad died (two weeks ago), my husband was able to get SIL to blurt out part of why we were being treated so poorly by others in the family. She shouted at him that they were all scared to death of him because he was going all over the place threatening to sue them all. He was dumb struck and had no idea what she was talking about. All I could think of was: I wonder what they have done that they know they should probably get sued for? When he said to her he had never threatened doing any such thing, she said sure he had, all the time, uh, just the other day. What other day? We have severely limited our contact with them to almost nothing, so when was this threat? And as my husband is later relating this to me, we are both looking at each other going HUH? HUH? It is so ridiculous it is almost funny; pitiful, actually, but no, this is deadly serious.

(So, is that a ruse to find out if we are thinking about suing? Or do they really believe what they have projected onto us? I believe they would not hesitate to sue if someone did to them what they are doing to the rest of us. I don't know if she's smart enough to come up with such a ruse. Or is their untrue accusation a way of justifying their illegal actions to themselves or others? "You were threatening to sue us all; you made us have to take control from you." The "you made me hurt you" defense.)

It's probably not worth trying to separate out whether she has always gone along with her mother because she is emotionally indebted to her somehow, or whether she herself has the disorder. (We know she's financially indebted to MIL.)

Today we were talking about this -- it's our constant burden -- and my husband said SIL's older sister (now deceased) was even worse. I did not happen to know the older sister very much, not having much opportunity, and was a bit surprised to hear him say it. She was also always the "victim," but apparently she was quite cruelly verbal because she was brilliant (and looked like a model). She was married about four times, and I'm not sure who treated whom the worst. She gave as good as she got, I'm told. And yes, it was always all about the money, the prestige, the appearance, the glamour (a bit of N in there). The older sister and MIL were apparently soul sisters, and little sister always felt left out. Older sister's middle-aged daughter is pretty much a basket case, and her son is totally estranged from the family.

Okay. All of that to ask this -- I have been looking for some resources about the behaviors and what becomes of adult children of psychopaths, and don't seem to come up with much info. I want to know if MIL's two daughters were and are pitiful victims who couldn't get away, or didn't know any better, or psychopaths in their own right.
As long as I'm asking, are there any members here who have seen a whole family line of psychopaths? I think at least one of SIL's sons is one too. I'd be interested in comparing notes.

Thanks to this group, I am no longer asking WHY they have done all of this damaging, cruel, destructive activity. I am now trying to figure out if it is worth fighting back. There is quite an estate at stake.

Thanks very much!
blue heron

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#12189 - 11/03/11 04:23 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi blueheron, due to the genetic component if these other relatives fit the bill by not having a conscience which is the dividing line between us and them. I remember years ago when people would talk about this relative and that relative before there was much information I found myself wondering if they were just seeing Psychopaths everywhere but in reality it does run in families due to genes so if it quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

If you plan on making a move to secure your financial part I would get a very tough attorney and make that person the contact so they aren't intruding on your life. My mother passed away first and her husband screwed my brother and sister and I royally, guess who got the largest part of our mother's assets? His daughter who is a drug addict married to an ex convict. There was nothing we could do about it but I did make the one relative of his sign a paper to never contact me for as long as I live and any communication had to come via the attorney. I also made her sign to not mention my name at their memorial for their ****** father. Watch the attorney carefully, this bozo attorney told the one vile relative of the estate sale, he never bothered and lied and said he had given the attorney our list of things that belonged to our mother when she was married to our father. My SIL found the estate sale listing on Craig's list so we had to buy what we wanted and some of the more expensive items weren't there so won't know until I get the final paperwork what happened to the silver set etc. The attorney should have notified us ALL but just informed this vile relative of his and she never told us. That was the duty of the attorney, so keep your eyes on any legal person you work with.

First I would put an emergency hold on the funds, depending on where you are living. It is not unusual for families to be at war under the best of circumstances over inheritances so there are laws out there to protect your interests.

Di

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#12222 - 11/07/11 12:10 AM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: Dianne E.]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Thank you for the feedback. You are right, even in the best of circumstances, families dealing with death and estates can go right off the deep end. People you would never guess, will do the awfullest things; we keep hearing more and more stories. Throw a psychopath into the mix and it defies belief. We have a friend whose father remarried a young woman, who somehow got everything willed to her, and she by golly took it all -- the family home, the belongings, the cash, all of it. Everything the heirs had once been promised, she took.

It makes me grit my teeth to think you all had to go to the estate sale and buy your own mother's things. That is just wrong -- uncaring, self-centered, greedy, cruel! The executor of the estate should have given you all those things.

Looks more like an attorney is in order for us, even if only to find out what "could" be done.

I will have to hold on to myself -- not only do I want those two psychopaths to put things back they way they were, but also get into deep legal trouble for breaking the law. They're too old and infirm to go to prison, but they could sure be fined every penny so that nobody gets it. How ugly of me. (And probably dangerous.)

Thanks, the information and ideas are truly helping. Let me see what I can do this week about an attorney.

blue heron

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#12237 - 11/07/11 04:12 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
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Hi blueheron, you might try contacting an elder abuse organization to see if they can provide a referral for an attorney who is used to dealing with these kind of issues. I would at least find out your rights so you don't second guess yourself in the future and can make an informed decision now.

As far as the estate sale, my mothers husband lied to us about giving it to the attorney, however it was the duty of the attorney to notify us and she only notified the main whacko step daughter (the devout Christian, hah) and she didn't bother to inform us and lied about it, she is truly evil, however the final fault was the attorneys. Even though this evil person hated my mother in life she refused to even give us a pinch of her ashes. We wrote to her and asked for some because we wanted to take them to Montana where my mother was born and spent the happiest time in her life. She refused and insisted they all be combined with her "step" dad and they did the scattering. It is funny how people proclaim to be so close to someone and they never did a single thing to care for their "step" father, that was left to my brother and I to do. They sure had the time to make our lives miserable by holding a memorial and not giving us any of our mothers ashes.

All in all the attorney was/is a worthless piece of junk and is at fault. She was appointed the executor by my mothers husband.

I hope you can find a good attorney and the elder abuse organization can possibly help you find one that can at least advise you of your rights. It sounds like there is enough money on the table and if you can prove they had documents signed by your husbands father who was not all there you might have legal standing. I would guess this kind of thing is something an elder abuse organization deals with all the time.

Di

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#12427 - 12/16/11 12:03 AM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Checking in to say the bull**** continues, except we stay pretty much away. My hub kind of thought things would quiet down once his father passed away, but it didn't. I told him so ...

We were very pointedly NOT invited to ANY Christmas celebrations of ANY kind with ANY of husband's family. Good. What a relief. If they think they're hurting us by snubbing us on the "biggest day of the year," they should see me doing the happy dance and saying "Yessssssss!" Anyhow, we don't like about half the things they said were on their menu. Hmm, I think they knew that.

Husband does go next door once in a while to do reconnaissance, and last time found out some more amazing things. I don't know why they admit that stuff. In fact, SIL pretty much bragged about how brilliant one of her moves was. Except it is highly illegal. I can't figure out if she is so ignorant she doesn't know any better, or if she doesn't care as long as it worked out the way she wanted it to.

This whole thing is very weird. It's like the only time they will talk to us is if they are trying to gather info, but my husband stays so quiet that they get nervous and start jabbering to fill the silence, and before long they are admitting crap they've pulled. I don't quite get it. Do they not think we'll do anything about it?

Yes, we'll be seeing an attorney.

The more I look back over the years at some of the things about them I have wondered about, the more it looks like there's really not much intelligence in there. They have survived their learning disabilities and their backward country ways by bullying and bluffing their way through.

We were going back east to spend Christmas with my family, but for several reasons we were not able to attempt the drive. Not only have we been watching the strange weather, a couple of trusted advisors strongly suggested we stay here. Anyway, we are having Christmas with a couple of neighbors and none of us is going to cook.

Merry Christmas to everyone. Be kind to yourselves.
blue heron

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#12439 - 12/18/11 01:30 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
1Healing Offline
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Registered: 10/25/11
Posts: 87
Hi blueherron!

Well you sound good.. & ENJOY the holidays! I'm starting my, "what I want for new years eve celebration," corner of goodies. The weather this way is supposed to be bad too. & Christmas is about Christ's birth, so really it's much more than the trappings anyways... you know that one ... My fav is usually Thanksgiving, "with," others but this yr I was so wiped out.. my brother & his family came to town & it was good to see them. He went through an unwanted divorce & his ex is a looloo too, full of herself, not sure why really. He started dancing lessons after she left him & likes to go dancing.. he is never for lack of social life/ that, his work & kids keeps him busy.

There are people who are all about themselves & frankly if they are upfront about it, it makes no dif to me, but the ones that pretend to be one person & are NOT that way at all.. grrrrrrr & that describes ex h Psychopath!

All of the lines he used turned out to be b.s., meant NOTHING to him, it was a lure.
A friend of mine yesterday was SO disgusted when we talked; she has seen me struggle so & she knew him, from the church we attended & she is furious at him. She called him bum.
I've had others say the same to me about him. He seemed to so easily move into my life & turn it upside down, take NO responsibility at all for the damage or debt & then just moves on to OTHERS. There is No conscious. He claims all of these prophetic gifts.. that do NOT come true on his end.

I'm glad you are not going there & I pray you enjoy your Christmas, you & hubby & your immediate family.. if you have relatives/friends nearby to share it with. You know, I can forgive but. That does mean ignoring what is real.

My health is so bad lately that I have amped up my own healing process, personally, vits/ healing herbs, more exercise/ trying to bring myself back around to feeling good & with energy & I think I may have figured out how to rise above this. The stress of it all zapped my own body's ability to survive nearly (with the disability I have) but I'm determined to rise above it all. Been getting the natural sea salts, wonderful spices/herbs.. & I think I've figured out how to make this work (healing).

I always go to the place that eventually he will be staring his Maker in the face & have to deal with all of the turmoil he causes. What he said to me amounted to nothing really, in the end, it was a pack of lies from his mouth into the wind.

I think I may have reached bottom in my circumstances, as to my own self in healing from this nightmare. He used me, I was a pawn in his game.. but he didn't finish me off.


Edited by 1Healing (12/18/11 01:34 PM)

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#12457 - 12/19/11 11:55 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: 1Healing]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
A blessed Christmas to you, 1Healing. I see you are being kind to yourself, giving yourself healthful treatment. I know how it is to try moving toward health -- I'm on disability. Keep after it and do not be afraid to ask for help. It may be more blessed to give than to receive, but in order for someone to give, someone has to be the receiver. And perhaps it's your time to receive for a bit.

Merry Christmas from blue heron

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#12458 - 12/20/11 12:25 AM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Treachery in the ranks.

Today SIL calls my husband to find out what we are bringing to the Christmas Eve dinner!

Ooooookay? We kind of never were invited, but we were somehow supposed to go anyway?

He tells her he didn't know we were coming, and that we had other plans. (And in the background I wanted to jump up and down and cheer him on.)

How dare we have "other plans!" And she pulls the pity/guilt card. Oh, but Mother has congestive heart failure ... then she leaves the suggestion hanging so you can strip your own gears trying to figure out what she means. Of course, she means for us to feel guilty because this might be MIL's last Christmas, and how could we be so heartless.

Except husband says, "We never said we were coming."

And of course, SIL says, "Oh, but I thought you said you were. In fact I think I remember when you did."

And he says, "No. We didn't." Good for him. I have been talking to him about this group and how it's helped me. And how we have to take care of our own mental health and well-being, because no matter what choice we make where the psychopath is involved, they're not going to like our choice. We discussed that some, and he agreed that historically with MIL and SIL, it didn't matter what choice he made, it was never the right one. So if we can't win, we'd do well to make the best choice for ourselves. That made sense to him.

After a bit more of this tit-for-tat, SIL says to him, "Well, I've enjoyed our little visit." Very ominous. She's just spoiling for any reason to completely cut the rest of the family out. She can try hanging this over our head if she wants, but it won't work. Not any more.

So this evening, after a whole afternoon of thinking about that phone call, I ask him if he's still doing okay with that decision, and he says, "I feel great."

They'll never get it. If they have a busted amygdala, there's no use in talking. (But I'm sure it's far from over.)

Blessed Christmas to all,
blue heron

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#12461 - 12/20/11 01:07 AM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
So pleased for you guys!

What a great husband you have too, he totally gets it and knows how to deal with it, how to establish those boundaries.


Originally Posted By: blueheron
I have been talking to him about this group and how it's helped me. And how we have to take care of our own mental health and well-being, because no matter what choice we make where the psychopath is involved, they're not going to like our choice. We discussed that some, and he agreed that historically with MIL and SIL, it didn't matter what choice he made, it was never the right one. So if we can't win, we'd do well to make the best choice for ourselves. That made sense to him.



Totally.

I'm so proud of our little corner here. And so proud to be able to help each other when we need it, and share in each other's progress too.

A very blessed Christmas to you too smile

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#12516 - 01/08/12 11:21 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: starry]
twin Offline
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Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 74
Hi Everyone,

Like the research suggests, I strongly believe there to be a genetic component to Psychopathy. I have one brother who is a full-blown psychopath and 3 other brothers who have psychopathic traits and various degrees of mental illness/substance abuse to go along with it.

I posted a lot last year to come to terms with how my psychopath brother (who has cancer) stole our mother's car while she was in a hospital bed with a broken pelvis and crashed it. Adding insult to injury, he had no money to pay the deductible to get the car repaired. While she was in the hospital and nursing home, he'd go to her condo and pilfer through her cabinets until we removed nearly everything of value (checking account, mad $, etc.) He's previously looked at porn on her computer and persuaded (pressured her) to pay for gas money, etc. Adding further insult to injury, once she returned to her home after 6 months of hospitalization, he insisted "YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOT TO VISIT MY MOTHER!" when he had a full blown infestation of bed bugs that he refused to get exterminated. We threatened to get a restraining order against him which seemed to work.

My sister and I paid someone to help him apply for SSI so he wouldn't need my mom (who is now 84) for his financial assistance. In the last year or so, he's blown through about $12,000 and taken three trips out west.

But, I will tell you . . . he isn't pestering my mom for money anymore which is a tremendous relief to her and for my sister and I so for that I'm grateful. I have nothing to do with him other than to make sure that he isn't exploiting my mom.

And . . . you know what? My life is a lot better without him in it. With most people, we need boundaries. With my brother, you need walls. It may sound callous, but this will only end when he dies.

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#12589 - 01/25/12 06:31 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: twin]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Agreeing with you here, twin. No contact with these people, even though they are family. Life gets a lot more peaceful.

Guess what, folks. In the past week, both MIL's and SIL's cars have been wrecked. MIL's granddaughter backed into a covered parking area and bent one of the support poles in half; scraped one whole length of MIL's van. Van's still in the shop. The managers of the complex are still figuring out who's going to pay to repair the parking cover. (I'm sure MIL is whining "But we're broke! We're broke!" Bullsh*t.)

SIL rear-ended somebody with her car. She was bringing MIL home from the doctor. They had stopped somewhere for ice cream. MIL's ice cream was falling to the floor and SIL leaned down to grab for it. BAM! Into the back of a car.

We drove past them on our way home after the police were there and everything, and knew better than to stop and get in the middle of that mess! Besides, we had frozen food that needed to get to the freezer, quick. LOL

Just deserts. whistle


Edited by blueheron (01/25/12 06:33 PM)

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#12590 - 01/25/12 09:01 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
You gave me a laugh for the day, I can picture your driving past to get home to get your things in the freezer, lol, lol. Now that means you have made a ton of progress when you know keeping your food safe instead of worrying if they were safe. Like who cares. Could sound callous but I found your post quite funny.

Di

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#12636 - 01/29/12 10:33 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: Dianne E.]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
So glad I could give you a laugh. grin We are still chuckling over it.

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#12640 - 01/30/12 07:38 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Something new every day.

The Psychopaths next door have gotten desperate.

A couple of months before my husband's father died, the two Psychopaths went and changed ownership of everything Dad owned out of his name and into theirs. They took as much as they could hide, financially, and hid it. Then they proceeded, quite illegally, to apply for Dad to get Medicaid, since he had nothing! And he was approved!

We have kept as far away from all of them as you can when you live next door, so we didn't know much more about what they have been up to. But this morning, they called my husband to please come over because they needed some help. He always goes, just to listen and find out what they've done now.

For three hours they spilled their guts about how their cash flow has gotten down too far and they needed to sell some assets -- could he help them cash it out? They told a lot of the things they've done because they seem to have no concept that a lot of it is illegal, unethical, immoral, etc. The only thing they will not reveal is how badly they have shortchanged a couple of the heirs.

It came out that Medicaid found them out, as they always do, and made them pay back thousands of dollars or face prosecution. Yay, goodie! I think they were surprised, and not quite sure what they had done wrong. Then there were those car repairs (rather, the insurance deductibles), and other unnamed things. Turns out they have tied up those illegally hidden assets so well, they can't quite get their hands on them now without a paper trail or paying an attorney a percentage to free up the stuff. Oh, boohoo.

They tried one thing to snag husband in -- please buy a little batch of our assets for cash. He agreed, and I couldn't believe it. I suggested that the items in question are now on an inventory list in the attorney's hands, and if they try to liquidate the items "under the table," he could get in trouble along with them. They would happily take advantage of that to ruin him, and me. Geez! So he called and said he was not going to be able to do it after all. He told them to take the items back to the person who appraised them, maybe he'd buy them.

Soon they call back with another idea. They want to put some assets into a new and separate safe deposit box and call them gifts for the four heirs upon MIL's death, and the only way the box can be opened between now and then is if three of them are there at the bank to sign in (and keep an eye on the other). Except! If MIL needs the cash from those assets, then she'll take them back. Say what! I blew up. That is no gift! MIL is trying to hide assets, plain and simple!

Not only that, husband's name and signature would be involved, and they would figure out some way to sink his ship. No, thank you!

Then they started edging into the whining, poor-me thing, and trying to make him feel responsible for helping them out. Whereupon I read husband the riot act. I am so angry at those idiots! I had just about calmed down from wanting to choke SIL, but today really stoked my fire.

Husband keeps claiming that he only goes to see them to find out what they have been up to. But it seems they always manipulate him into helping somehow, and when we examine it, it is usually to his detriment. You don't stick your hand in a fire just to see how hot it is! You don't swim out into a rip tide just to see what mood it is in today! (But-but-but they're my family, he says. Phooey! I say. Do they treat you like family?)

I told him one of the mottos of this group and a child-of-narcissist group I'm in -- Most folks say the best defense is a good offense, but with psychopaths and narcissists, the best defense is -- RUN!



Edited by blueheron (01/30/12 07:42 PM)

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#12641 - 01/30/12 08:58 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Good for you, blueheron. Trust me the system is set up to find fraud. Anything in safe deposit boxes etc. they will track down. We all know they will just scr*w you in the end if the going gets tough and it will. I would never be go along with that hot potato, they would prosecute you as accessories to the crimes THEY committed.

Your husband needs to understand that by going along with any of their not so swift criminal acts will lead the fire back in your direction and your home and life will be destroyed along with theirs.

You are so right, so what if they are family, they sure didn't treat you like family by bilking you out of your rightful inheritance. So what if they are in a jam, it is one they created for themselves. Now that Medicaid is investigating them for the first fraud, I would think twice even knowing what they are up to. Who wants to spend the time with idiots now turning criminal to protect themselves and drag you into their net. You are right, RUN, cut off the long idiot conversations that they are plotting, I would be inclined to figure out who in Medicaid is investigating them and the only reason I would talk to them would be to gather evidence to send them down the river.

I can understand your husband is a really nice guy but I would stop any contact with them while they are cooking up criminal plans. Unless I was planning on getting evidence to turn the investigation heat up I frankly wouldn't even want to hear what they are up to. The less you know the better so when their boat gets really rocky, they can't turn on you....again. They are evil and capable of anything when they really get cornered. I am sure the investigators that caught them the first time still have their radar in their direction. Boo hoo, cry me a river, they have tried to manipulated you and your husband long enough. It would actually be nice to see them being hauled off and lose everything, then you wouldn't have them next door.

You might remind your husband that they are NOT family, they sure didn't treat you like one by getting all the other relatives to treat you like you were dirt over the holidays.

Quote:
Soon they call back with another idea. They want to put some assets into a new and separate safe deposit box and call them gifts for the four heirs upon MIL's death, and the only way the box can be opened between now and then is if three of them are there at the bank to sign in (and keep an eye on the other). Except! If MIL needs the cash from those assets, then she'll take them back. Say what! I blew up. That is no gift! MIL is trying to hide assets, plain and simple!


What a pack of idiots, banks need ID to get safety deposit boxes, that is how they will get tripped up, frankly I would monitor their calls and not answer them to bring some peace back to your own home, if you have to block them I would do so, why be a bundle of nerves when the phone rings.

I wouldn't put my name on anything involved with them even if they held a gun to my head. It is THEIR problem not yours so why be bothered by them. Let them twist in the wind.

Di

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#12642 - 01/31/12 05:47 AM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
blueheron, I absolutely agree with Di on this.

I've had a think about it too, and it worries me. To me it seems like he's still 'caught' by them. As Di says, he's putting himself in a dangerous position in even just going round and listening to what they're up to.

I'd like to add another reason to the ones that Di has given. An easy way to 'break' someone is to put them in a position where they know they are going to be witness to something truly terrible, something which runs contrary to their moral (or even professional) code of conduct.

That person is left with a dilemma: they want to get away from the people/events/situation that is putting them in this situation, but they feel bound and responsible to try and 'do the right thing' in their eyes. Doing the right thing involves getting tangled up in the people/events/situation further, it involves a lot of stress and a very tortuous path (putting strain on family, friendships, finances, jobs...all the things we work hard to nurture and look after). So it's almost easier to say nothing and suffer in silence. But the knowledge of not having spoken up and 'done the right thing' is a very poisonous thing.

I've seen my dad do this to other people, and I've been on the receiving end of my dad doing this to me. It is horrendous. Dealing with my dad's latest set up has cost me the past 5 years of my life, a number of breakdowns, any chance of full time work, caused a huge amount of strain on my life and all my relationships.

There's no such thing as innocently listening in on something that these people are plotting, or in the middle of doing. Even just being within earshot, you're giving them attention and you're opening yourself up to manipulation. Eventually they'll hit on the one thing which puts you into that impossible situation and then it's too late, you're trapped. For that reason, please tell your husband to stop going round. Neither of you need to know what these people are doing (conversely as that might sound).

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#12645 - 01/31/12 06:37 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
member

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Dianne, starry, you are both amazing and spot on. Thank you so much for taking time to read and write a reply. This whole situation is getting scary. I am trying really hard not to escalate myself into full-blown paranoia, but they are so unpredictable it is difficult.

Today my husband has been complaining of stomach pains. Well, no kidding! Me too!

We are calling an attorney tomorrow, if I have to drag my husband kicking and screaming. shocked We need to find out how to protect ourselves; I'm not interested in pursuing them legally -- we have already realized there will be nothing coming from the estate -- we just want to keep them off of us.

I'm sure you've heard it before, but as perverse as it sounds, I am glad someone has seen this kind of thing before and understands what is going on.

Thank you!
blue heron

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#12650 - 02/02/12 12:23 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hey blueheron, what happened with the attorney, what kind of attorney did you see?

I hope it was a wake up call for your husband, if he thinks his stomach hurts now that is child's play if he gets you both under the hot lights of these criminal actions.

Maybe it is my age showing but when I get a whiff that someone is messing with the law and in particular the system I run in the other direction, I don't even want to know what they are up to.

Hey who knows this might be the answer to your dreams if they get caught hiding assets they may just lose their home and you will be free from living next door wink

Di

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#12652 - 02/02/12 04:58 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: Dianne E.]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Hello,

Dianne, we just got home from the attorney (estate attorney). Well, granted, we stopped on the way home for a margarita and some guacamole because we were strung tighter than a cheap violin. We never drink, so one drink did a nice buzz job. Oh, well. Now we are not so upset any more.

The attorney heard our story with increasing amazement. He confirmed that several of the things they allegedly did were highly illegal. Then he said since my husband's name has not been on any of the estate documents for a couple of years, he's pretty safe from whoever wants to come after them for anything. We could turn them in for some of these illegal activities, but since probably nobody else knows about it, they would know exactly who turned them in. Since we live next door, it would be pretty difficult to get away from any of their attempts at revenge.

When we told the attorney how SIL has the new fee arrangement set up with their attorney, our attorney said that is usually the way they set it up when they are expecting someone to sue. So! They must be expecting us to sue them. I have heard for months that they are afraid we would sue them. I would call that projection, because that is what they would do if the shoe was on the other foot. But I always want to know what it is they have done that they think someone would sue them. Eh? Plenty!

The attorney was able to check online with the local courts to see if Dad's estate was being probated, and by whom, so we got a printout of all that info, which is helpful.

The attorney was very careful how he put it, but he said it was likely we would never see a penny from the estate unless we wanted to go to court. We said it probably was not worth the mental anguish, and that we had already accepted that probability. We just wanted to know if our rear ends were covered from anyone coming after Dad's estate and the people who are executing it. He said yes, as far as he could see.

He also said STAY AWAY from everyone next door from now on -- why do you even want to know people like that. I agree.

As far as them leaving next door -- as soon as MIL dies or moves out, they all must go, since this is a senior community and people are waiting in line to live here. It won't be long.

Thanks again for your kindness and help. If any of this does not make sense, it's the frozen margarita talking. grin


Edited by blueheron (02/02/12 05:00 PM)

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#12653 - 02/02/12 05:13 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
blueheron, I'm so impressed with how you're dealing with this. And how great that the attorney understood what was going on and gave you the advice he did.

You've been in my thoughts the past couple of days.

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#12654 - 02/02/12 07:10 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: starry]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Great for you blueheron, glad you had the margarita stop, lol.

If they get themselves in deep enough and it sounds like they are heading into even deeper hot water, my first hunch is before long the clamp will come down and that is great news if they get MIL and she loses the place to live the others will get the automatic boot. I just have this feeling that they are in so deep even if their boat had paddles they can't escape this "jam" they have themselves in.

I also don't think they are very clear thinkers, anyone with 1/2 a brain wouldn't trot into a bank and sign up for a safe deposit box to stash "missing" items from an estate after just getting caught by Medicaid for fraud. I would be getting a shovel, it would be safer in a hole in my backyard than signing my name at a bank when they are already after me, jeez.

To me they are really, really stupid criminals and their days are numbered. NO one in their right mind would cook up such a plot. You would never have a bunch of stuff in a safe deposit box anytime a person is trying to commit fraud, holy moly. Now they want to stash it in the most exposed place in the world, a bank, after being caught, pretty stupid criminals, imo. They will be dust soon, they lack the skills to get away with what they are doing.

Thanks for checking in, I think your attorney was a great pick and sounds like he gave you the advice you needed to just get in your neutral zone over them. They just don't exist, it will be hard living next door to them throughout this I am clearly not trying to minimize that but really why should they have to exist in your own mind's space and be in your head just because they live next door. They are nothing but dangerous.

Congratulations, the truth shall set you free. Besides when they get hauled off you don't want the neighbors to think you were chummy with them but the opposite, people will notice that they never see you going over there or communicating so you will end up with clean hands. The last thing you need is to continue living where the community might even think you just might have been involved. They will notice, communities tend to pay attention to the neighbors and know you were always not part of what gets them hauled off sooner than later.

Since they are nothing, start thinking of the fun ways you will celebrate when you see them going away. Three cheers for your peace of mind. They are too stupid so I don't get the idea it will be long. Heck, they can't even drive down the street and keep the simple fact that when you are driving, trying to catch your MIL's ice cream isn't the wisest move as a driver.

Their one big idea is to go to a bank and hide their criminal activities, they are truly stupid criminals that would be the last place that any sane person would consider and frankly a good criminal would find a bank the LAST place to take things to hide, have to give it to them, they should be featured on some Stupidest Criminals TV show ; )

So relieved you know the facts, great for you.

Di

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#12656 - 02/02/12 10:41 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
member

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Dianne and starry, once again, thank you so much.

Now that the alcohol has worn off, well ... we are feeling a bit beat up. But we are a lot clearer, if sadder, about what we need to do and not do.

I am very grateful to everyone who is a bit further down the road on this journey and takes their time to help the rest of us along. Hugs and blessings.

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#12715 - 02/25/12 02:36 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Hi, all,

I need help with an issue that is ruining my day.

We live in a gated community with rules about pets. The in-laws (read: the psychopaths) next door pay no attention to any of those rules. Residents are not supposed to allow their pets outside without a leash, nor allow them to mess in other people's yards. So what? The Psychopaths put in a pet flap so their dogs can go outside on their own any time they want. The dogs come directly to our yard to poop. The Psychopaths yard is all one big cement patio surrounded by big rocks, so there's no place for the dogs to go in their back yard. How convenient.

Our little patch of back yard is so loaded with their dogs' poop, you can't walk two feet without stepping in it. Then there's the smell and the flies. We cannot go out and enjoy our own yard.

At first, my husband and I thought about verbally asking them to take care of it. But they have notoriously poor memories, and they twist everything you say. They would blithely tell management that we made no such request to them. So then I thought about making a copy of the pet rules and putting my request in writing, with a copy to the management. I don't really care who cleans it up, or how they do it, I just want it done by a certain day or I will go talk to the manager about it.

Hubby and I have hashed and argued over this, and truly, there is no way to come out unscathed, even though it is our in-laws' lawful responsibility. I am so overheated by everything else they've done, I cannot think straight to come up with a strong, neutral wording for the letter.

Since any way I word the request will cause an uproar and backlash, maybe some of you who've been through this kind of thing can help me come up with something that will look reasonable and sane to the management or whoever else sees it.

I just want my yard cleaned up. NOW.

Thanks!


Edited by blueheron (02/25/12 02:41 PM)

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#12716 - 02/25/12 03:49 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi blueheron, being a person who has 3 dogs, I HATE it when someone lets their dogs go in my front yard, fortunately I have a privacy fence in my back yard. I have caught people a couple of times over the years and what I did was go and give them a bag if I catch them. I got really mad when I was living in California and had neighbors that did that. I lived in a mixed neighborhood and when I tried to speak to them, they only spoke Chinese so I went to the corner market and had the owner write the note in Chinese. Then they continued so I started to go out and tell their dog to get away. Then I finally had it so I scooped the poop and put it in a bag on their front door steps, lol. They stopped after that.

Personally I think it is very unhealthy to have poop in your yard and I clean up after my dogs in the back yard a couple times a day. I don't want to step in it and I don't want them to step in it and come in the house. I have a large lot, close to a 1/2 acre and I find it much easier to deal with it more often, call me compulsive but I do not like poop from even my own kids in my yard. When we go for a walk I have a pocket of baggies just in case. I don't allow them to pee on peoples bushes or plants and only let them go in an area that doesn't have houses. It is called respecting others boundaries.

What is the deal with the pet flags? If their dog is small which I suspect it is since communities often have rules over the size of dog, could you put up a small fence around your area? I suspect you would have to get approval but I would figure out a way. You have enough on your mind living next door to them. Maybe if you approach it from the angle that you want approval to put up a small fence to block their dog that might get the attention of management. I would make them come by every day personally if you can't fence in your area. Take photos if you can. Also if you want try some cayenne pepper on the outer area of your yard. I use that to keep my kids from digging where I have plants. Make sure and wear gloves and wash your hands after you sprinkle it around. I did that in my house to keep my kittens from getting into the plant in my office. Maybe before you do anything try cayenne pepper and see if that keeps their dog out of your area. You can also mix the cayenne pepper in a small amount of water and pour it around your boundary area.

I had neighbors who lived a few blocks from me before who let their two dogs run loose so I keep leashes by my front door, one day I got them to come to me so I put leashes on them and turned them into the police department because that was how animal control worked in that town. Never saw the dogs running loose again. They weren't doing anything in my yard but I felt since they didn't have the brains to keep their dogs in their own area I sure didn't want to see them get hit by a car.

I am sure you can tell I am quite rabid on this issue, lol.

Di

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#12720 - 02/27/12 12:27 AM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: Dianne E.]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
As usual, great feedback, Dianne. Thanks so much.

But get this! A MIRACLE HAPPENED. laugh

About the time I finished writing my plea and had the mouse over the "submit" button, I saw one of MIL's great-granddaughters (10 yrs old) out in our back yard. She had gone out there to play with one of their little dogs. After she stepped in dog poop about three times and had to clean her shoes off, she disappeared for a little while. The next time I saw her, she was out there with a pooper-scooper, cleaning up our yard! She raked and scooped the entire thing spotless so she could play. Amazing. Bless that child. She probably fussed at her grandmother and great-grandmother for not dealing with it sooner, if I know her. I don't know what to say to thank her without causing some kind of backlash.

So, the old psychopaths dodge the bullet once again. I don't know how they keep doing that; they get away with murder half the time.

I think I will start with cayenne pepper, as several online sources say it does a pretty good job. Then I'm going to hook my water hose up by the back door and have it ready whenever I see one of them out there squatting. Plus, photos are a good idea. The manager is very open to photos and helped us out when he was able to see how our back yard floods when it rains.

One foot in front of the other ... step at a time ...

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#12792 - 03/11/12 05:46 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Well, guess what. I am trying hard not to have a stroke. I have no idea what to do now.

Today is MIL psycho's birthday. Dear Husband insisted on taking a birthday card to her next door. No sooner than he got in there to say hello, SIL psycho was there, interrupting everything to talk about her great news.

"Guess what! Guess what! [MIL's Granddaughter, who's been the caregiver] is moving out next week, and we are moving in here to take care of Mother!" yakyakyakkety yak, ad nauseum ... not a word edgewise when she gets started ...

OMG.

My blood pressure is through the roof. I literally cannot see straight.

God bless Granddaughter (our niece) for finally escaping. She's moving close to her sweetheart, 60 miles away. Trying to deal with her grandmother and aunt all this time I think has broken her beyond repair.

How do I escape???

Six days from now, psycho-SIL and her husband (who I'm not sure has any say-so in the matter, poor guy) are giving up their apartment down the street and moving everything in next door. What a great way to suck up all the assets while MIL is still living, so she can legitimately say to the other three heirs that there's nothing left when MIL is gone.

We already weren't planning on any of the other three getting anything, anyhow, so that's not the big issue. The big issue is having that woman over here 24/7 and having to work to avoid her, try not to hear her voice through the wall, try not to imagine what she is going to pull next. It's too close for comfort.

All I can say is, I sincerely, terribly, horribly hope that the management has not told SIL she gets to stay on in that unit after MIL is gone. (It's not just a rental or a lease, it is a large lump-sum lease that was purchased on day one of residency, and it is NOT transferable. It better not be. There are other people waiting in line for one of these units, and they are supposed to get first consideration.) I would rather live in a tent in the desert than try putting up with that woman.

My main problem is, I am already unwell, on disability. I have been dealing with these people for over a year now. I've had to start blood pressure medicine -- me, who has never had a problem all my life! I am having to take care of a husband who has cognitive problems and a mood disorder. I do NOT have any reserve for dealing with those people. In the past I might have been able to kick butt and take names, but I don't think I have the wherewithal to protect myself from them right now.

I AM SO UPSET, I AM BESIDE MYSELF! I don't know what to do.

I know what I would like to do. I cannot stop daydreaming about getting in SIL's face and calling her every ugly thing I can think of, tell her I know what she is, know what she's done, then assaulting her until she is a pile of jello. I've only had one or two people in my life I ever felt this way about, and she's one of them. I do not know how to keep from "giving her my day."

I hate this. Why does she get to win, and I have to lose? I didn't ask for this!

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#12793 - 03/11/12 07:15 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Yes OMG is a good way to describe this. I guess it is good your husband found out but he really needs to stop going over there and coming back with predictable bad news.

Let me get this straight, now your MIL is the sole signer, is there some rules about how many people can occupy a unit?

Hopefully your SIL will avoid you since she is really there to live rent free and drain the $.

I can understand really wanting to live in a tent but since you are stuck there how do we help you to avoid them and the chaos? Having high blood pressure can be very serious and we have to figure out a way to block them out. It must be worst than ever with this bad news.

If your husband would stop visiting you can eliminate even hearing what they are up to. What ever happened to their fraud with the State?

I am only hoping that your SIL will try to avoid you, do you think she will be dropping by, it seems like if you can get your husband to stop the visits she may just want to cut you out anyways since you know she is doing it for the $ and will probably be cooking up more schemes like before.

Does your MIL ever come over, do you think your SIL will be dropping by? I think you will need to also avoid her husband, even though he is a victim, it will continue the chaos.

I hope they will keep their games and secrets about the money they are robbing to themselves. Your husband needs to stand up and stop visiting with them.

They wanted to cut you out over the holidays, maybe they will continue to do so, is that possible?

Di

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#12930 - 03/24/12 08:59 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
Sorry to say, I haven't been on here for a bit.

My dear husband was able to avert disaster for the time being. He went to see his step-mother (MIL) and her granddaughter (our niece) next door and discovered that it wasn't their idea for step-sister and her husband to move in there. They had been told that's how it was going to be, and they weren't real thrilled with it.

So in rare form, husband painted them a great word picture about what it would be like, based on what SIL told him. How lots of MIL's furniture would be given away to make room for SIL's, and how all of SIL's stuff would be hung on the walls instead of what's there now, etc. In essence, daughter wouldn't be living at her mom's to take care of her, mom would be living in daughter's new home.

Well, immediately after that, MIL and granddaughter called and told SIL they changed their mind and didn't want to do it. That put SIL into a royal rage and she raged around for several days. Slamming doors, doing the silent treatment, revving the car and screeching tires ...

But there's always more. Husband's brother called MIL to see about something, and when the conversation was over, old MIL failed to hang up the phone. So he got to hear MIL and SIL having a shocking conversation (which he recorded!), where SIL was trying to talk MIL into turning over all her cash so SIL could put it into her own bank account for "safe keeping." That b***h. I don't know what it is going to take to stop her.

I was right. This will only end when they are all dead. Which I hope for daily. Sheesh.

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#12932 - 03/24/12 10:25 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: blueheron]
blueheron Offline
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Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 84
When I wrote the last entry, I failed to tell everything. Husband and I went to see the manager of this community, and he told us of a little-known loophole that even he hadn't known about. If a family member moves in to be a caregiver of a resident here, and if the resident dies, the caregiver can "step in" to the lease, provided they are old enough.

When I heard that, I just sat back in the chair and tried not to cry. We begged the manager to please do what he could to keep this from happening. And as much as he cares for us, he said it had already been done, and the only thing that would keep her out was if she was a danger to herself or others (Oh, hahahahaaa!!!!), or if she had committed a felony (hahahahahaaa some more!!!). We told him we had the goods on her for both of those things, and he said okay, do what you gotta do.

But so far, we haven't had to, because hubby talked MIL and her granddaughter into refusing SIL's arrangement. Except you all know it ain't over 'til it's over.

In retrospect, I see that SIL is making a full time job of finding all the loop holes and ways to bend the law that she can. Truly, I did not think she was that smart. She must be utterly desperate with greed. It is disgusting to watch and hear about.

My hubby's brother is one who can fritz your circuits with the truth if you mess with him, and he has offered to give SIL a call and tell her we know everything, and we are not going to allow it to continue. Then he thought better of it and said truly, SIL is cooking her own goose, why should we interfere? eek

Thanks for letting me vent. Y'all are super.
blue heron

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#13004 - 04/04/12 08:09 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: Dianne E.]
you cannot say Offline
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Registered: 03/24/12
Posts: 1
Hi. I m new here.

Yes. It almost same as happened to me. My mother died because of her heartbroken. No one came to see her in 1 week after she returned from hospital of her successive backbone operations. In the hospital no one beside her. Only me who was beside her and cheer her up. My father kept informing by SMS or call he couldn't go to hospital today or tomorrow because of his work or he wants to do this or that. All her children also did it. Busy with their works or life. I feel awful to know (around few minutes before my mother passed away, she told me) I m adopted n my mother and father are not my true parents and her husband is psychopath as one result of his mental test years ago.

When I asked my mother why she adopted me she told it was tough time and I always brought lucky in my life area. My mother told it is proofed after I joined this family the doors are open. May be from God, she told me. So all this family should thank to me, she told me. At the time I decided to tell my mother not to tell my sibling that I am adopted but my mother insisted it, so I told her that she could tell them but not tell them that I know I m adopted. When my mother agreed, I gave her my phone and she told them one by one.

When all her children came they asked her inheritance. I want to play them as I want to know their reactions a few while because I know nothing left from her. I paid all the operations and all the medicines. I told her she left some money. All their eyes getting bigger and shouted all should be for them. After some time I understand they don't have single thing to think about this mother. When I told them it is debt, they all gone. I am staying alone now. No one want to share or help me to pay the debt or gave me some money.

The father also left the house and got some money from people out there and never gave me a single thing. I am happy with his decision to leave me alone. Before mother died, it were not only once he asked to sleep with him, but I kept on yelled to him saying if he miss my mother he should came to my mother or what is he doing never try to care after make it. (He doesn't know that I know I am not his). It were not once he told or yelled that he wants to kill me. I never afraid but remind him should be clever to kill me if don't want to get in jail. My mother told me that I m even with my father in arguing which no one in the family can do.

After I read the story, I m thinking the genetic of the psychopath. I was read from some source of it. Luckily they all life away from me. Because they don't want to get near me when I paid debt from hospital, I told them due my financial problem, I have to pay back in longer time. I think it is give me more time to repair my health and financial so if anything happen again, I can do something. I have to change my job and my church. Even the Rev in my church told me not to go to his church because some problem I don't understand. He told he got dream that everybody wants to kill me and that's why I should not go to church because he wants to protect all his congregation.

Last time when he heard that I am adopted (I didn't say it to him), he told me I should accept my true parents before can go to church because he wants to get some money from the ones who told I m adopted. I told the person not to give him money then he told I was under Satan spell because the money is for church which mean for God himself. It sound awful but I don't think much. Whenever I pray, I told God about this problem. For me, if it is not solved, so let it be. I don't know about that dream. The Rev told that I should came to him to ask and to obey whatever he told me. No. I never go to him. I know everyone was being told I m from Satan, etc. The conditions worse ever anyone can imagine, I never cry, but thinking how to solve it. I don't know what will happen next, sometimes it is eerie, but I try the best NEVER GIVE UP AND PLAN AND THINK CLEARLY WHAT TO DO NEXT STEP. Because the unseen race of life and living is there. My life and my living.

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#13013 - 04/05/12 05:52 PM Re: A whole family nest of psychopaths? Uuuuuggghhh!!! [Re: you cannot say]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi you cannot say, welcome to our community. You have had to face a lot and for that I feel very sorry.

I have a question, how did your mother adopt you and have your father thinking you were his child?

You are correct about the genetics so it is lucky that you are not like the others, your mother loved you very much and like a real mother would. I am sure she must had died with quite a burden but found comfort in knowing you were there.

It is indeed terrible what your head of the church did to you. Personally I am not into organized religion but I do realize many find comfort there.

I think you are very wise in how you handling these other people in the family, they sure know how to run when they don't see money in their path to grab. It is a good move that you extended out the payments to be able to see clearly what your next move should be. Here we have an expression, if you don't like the family you have, best to find a new one more suitable for you.

Di

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