I'm involved with this website because I am confused and looking for knowledge and advice. I've read many of your postings, and feel even more confused now than before. I am involved with a man who is separated from his wife of 13 years. He has a history of marital affairs and excessive lying. You might wonder why would I be involved with this man? That's hard to explain. He and I are able to communicate and connect like I've never experienced. I am deeply attracted to him....I'm drawn to him in my heart.

He recently went thru a crisis of sorts in which everything came crashing down. He admits that his life was spinning out of control. He hates himself for lying and cheating, and desperately wants to be a good person. He is in extensive therapy dealing with childhood sexual abuse and it's ramifications on his life.

The situation is obviously long and very involved. But to sum it up, here is my dilema - he is sweet and tender. He cries with me about his past, his actions, how he so desperately wants to be a good person and do the right thing. I've gotten to know one of the women whom he had an affair with, and she tells me not to believe him. She says he is a psychopath and a compulsive liar. To be honest, I know very little about this and am concerned. I feel love for this man, and don't want to dismiss him because of sosmething an ex says, but I also don't want to get involved with a psychopath. How do you know? Does this man sound like he potentially fits the profile?

Please help me. I feel guilty even having these thoughts, but everything I've read tells me how good they are at deceiving their victims, and I need to protect myself and my children.

lucky, We here can only speak from our experience. For me, your friend sets off a four-alarm alert.

"He has a history of marital affairs and excessive lying."

As you read the literature on psychopathy, you will come across the statement, again and again, that psychopathy is not determined by single or occasional acts of transgression, but by a pattern of them. A psychopath does not learn from his mistakes, thus, he is doomed to repeat them. He does not learn because he does not really feel or care about the pain he causes others, though he can do a fabulous act of sorrow and contrition. Do you really think that the act you are witnessing is a first-time performance? Don't you suppose that his wife of 13 years has seen that act so many times that she's no longer buying it? If it still worked on her, he would be doing it for her.

"He and I are able to communicate and connect like I've never experienced. I am deeply attracted to him....I'm drawn to him in my heart."

If you go back through some of our stories (especially the early posts on the orginal site), you will hear this theme repeated by us, over and over. I think it is almost a prerequisite of the psychopath experience. A psychopath does have an awesome power to attract, to draw in, to make the potential victim feel understood, and deeply mated, in her heart and soul. Of course, this could also happen with a true soul mate. From my reading and life experience, I surmise it happens rarely. With a psychopath, the illusion of that happening, is around 100% of the time. Couple this experience of him with the "history of marital affairs and excessive lying" and you have a very big red flag.

"He recently went thru a crisis of sorts in which everything came crashing down. He admits that his life was spinning out of control. He hates himself for lying and cheating, and desperately wants to be a good person. He is in extensive therapy dealing with childhood sexual abuse and it's ramifications on his life."

Psychopaths and narcissists (close cousins), may go through a "sort of almost kind of" desire to change when their worlds come crashing down. My husband of 30 years is in one of these, now. He is going to church, and becoming close buddies with his pastor. I have watched this scenario play out before, and my open eyes tell me that his genuine (if there is one ounce of genuineness anywhere)impulses will be overruled by the selfishness, destructiveness, and power drives of his psychopathic personality. I can tell you, without any observation of the relationship, that my husband has been weaving a net around his pastor, drawing him into his world of illusion. That world is being presented as one of a good man who has suffered a great wound, and his subsequent moral failures have been the result of that deep psychic wound. From there, he is gradually coloring himself as the real victim of his adult relationships, particularly the one with me, his wife. He starts off giving some kernel of truth, which hooks the victim, then slowly takes away the kernel until there is nothing left but a lie. The kernel of truth was that he wanted to change. The real truth is that he does not want to change at all. He wants to change his victim into a true believer in him. He wants to put things back the way they were before he was exposed as a liar and a fraud.

Of course, it is possible that your friend was sexually abused as a child, and that this expereince contributed to his moral corruption. But many children who were sexaully abused do not become chronic liars and cheaters. You may want to give some small hope to the possibility that he can and will change, but if I were you, I wouldn't give it very much.

"I've gotten to know one of the women whom he had an affair with, and she tells me not to believe him. She says he is a psychopath and a compulsive liar" Listen to her. She's been where you are now.

"...everything I've read tells me how good they are at deceiving their victims, and I need to protect myself and my children."

Listen to yourself. Never, never dismiss your instincts.

kris

Kris

Thank you for your frank response. I think that if somewhere in my soul I didn't feel it to be true, I wouldn't be here right now.

My problem though, which causes me much consternation, is why do I love him if I have these thoughts? I so desperately want it to not be true, but I feel like my heart and my mind are telling me 2 different things. Unfortunately for me, my heart has been winning out. I tell myself - How can he be so tender and sincere, and tell me how much he loves me if it's not true? Why would he go to such significant effort? Is it for sex? Or do they just get off on manipulation?

Another flag for me would be the fact that he doesn't take responsibility for his actions. He says that he knows he needs to take responsibility, but yet he always seems to back it up with some excuse from his abusive childhood.

Do you think it's possible for a P to really want to change but just not be capable of it?

I would be curious to hear from you survivors out there how accurately your P's fit the "profile". When I read the well known list of characteristics of a p, some of them fit my lover perfectly, while some of them don't fit at all. I'm curious if any of you have found that to be the case with your p.

Also, I've read that a large percentage (90-95%) of p's smoke. Does yours? They also tend to be prone to addiction, but are unlikely to seek recovery - have you found this to be true?

Thanks in advance for sharing!

Hi lucky, welcome to the forum. Maybe you can share some of the criteria you have used to begin to think your relationship is with a Psychopath? Have you read Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience?

Di

lucky,

"My problem though, which causes me much consternation, is why do I love him if I have these thoughts? I so desperately want it to not be true, but I feel like my heart and my mind are telling me 2 different things."

This is also so common to the psychopath experience that there is a thread here devoted to it, "Almost impossible to get away". On the old forum, I believe there is a thread called "The Trance", and one called called "Prince Charming". We are always speaking of "breaking the spell", "waking up", "getting back our souls". They have an uncanny ability to claim hearts and souls. I personally believe they channel the power of Lucifer, who is an agent of seduction and deception.

"...my heart has been winning out. I tell myself - How can he be so tender and sincere, and tell me how much he loves me if it's not true? Why would he go to such significant effort? Is it for sex? Or do they just get off on manipulation?"

They get off on power. Everything is about power to them, including the sex, but not limited to sex. The best way to claim another's soul is to induce that person to open their heart (soul) completely to you, to surrender, to trust with all their being. This is what they do. Then they own you. You will doubt your inner voice because what he tells you disputes it. You will silence your true self. You will exist to serve a lie...him.

"Another flag for me would be the fact that he doesn't take responsibility for his actions. He says that he knows he needs to take responsibility, but yet he always seems to back it up with some excuse from his abusive childhood." I simply do not believe it is that hard for a normal person to take responsibility. the only category of people I have encountered for whom this seems impossible is psychopaths.

"Do you think it's possible for a P to really want to change but just not be capable of it?"

Yes, but the result is the same. I am right now entertaining the idea that there are 2 kinds of psychopaths. In a discussion on the thread "good vs. evil", M. Scott Peck's book, "People of The Lie" has been recently discussed. He uses case histories to illuminate examples of people who are evil. He does not call them psychopaths. Whatever they are or are not, my husband is defintely one of those. I believe my husband should be classified a psychopath because he meets all of Hare's diagnostic criteria...unless you want to split hairs over the lack of a conscience. I have seen glimmerings of a conscience in him...a knowledge that his impulses are evil...a self-hatred, an almost sort of kind of desire to change (which goes absolutely nowhere).

Currently, I am turning over the idea that this kind of psychopath is made and not born. I do know my husband was sexually abused as a child, and that his family was evil, in the deepest sense of what M. Scott Peck describes, lives devoted to the serving of deception, the appearance of good. If there is a difference between this kind of psychopath, and the born ones whose brains are wired defectively, then couldn't this "made kind" change?

I won't say they couldn't. All of this discussion is conjecture on my part, anyway...that there may be 2 kinds of psychopaths...

I can say my husband has not changed. He is 55. His world came apart. He expressed a "soul-splitting desire to change". I see the same self-deception in him still, the same everything as before. Maybe your guy could change, but it is extremely doubtful, and truly...take it from somewhere who's been there...not worth the risk.

kris

Hi, thank you for your welcome. As you can tell, I am very confused, scared and hurting right now. I've been with my friend for almost a year, and we've been thru a lot. When I look at the list of characteristics, here is what I see:

Superficial charm - he can be very charming. I wouldn't have called it superficial because I'm not sure how to spot that...

Manipulative - I have seen him be manipulative with his charm to achieve an end (could that answer my question as to whether or not the charm is superficial?)

Grandiose sense of self - He certainly craves adulation and attention, but actually tends to have low self esteem.

Pathological lying - definately has a history of cool easy lying.

Lack of remorse shame or guilt - speaks of being shameful and sorry for his actions, but sometimes it's hard to tell if he really feels that way, or just knows he should.

Shallow emotions - that's a hard one. He seems so sincere when expressing his love. He's very romantic, tender and well versed. Yet I find out he has said some of the exact same things to other women. He will cry with me when expressing pain over a troubled relationship with his father, and will cry when discussing the possibility of losing custody of his son. Sometimes when I look in his eyes though I hear the words but don't see the feeling in his eyes - they look cold.

Incapacity to love - he claims to want to live a life of love. But he admits that he's not sure if he is truly capable of love because he feels he's "messed up" emotionally as a result of his childhood sexual abuse.


Need for stimulation - definately likes to be going, yet also enjoys sitting quietly reading, surfing alone, peaceful moments in nature


Lack of empathy - can recognize pain in others, but I can't tell if he is genuinely empathetic in his heart or just able to recognize it mentally

Early behavioral problems - nothing significant


Promiscuos sexual behavior - big time. He admits to it, and claims to hate the lifestyle, but says he was looking to fulfill a need for love and nurturing - something I know he has never experienced in his life.


criminal behavior - none


unrealistic life plan - does not apply to him

He is a recovering alcoholic (has been in recovery for 3 years) He is very non-violent and actually cowers in the face of confrontation.

hi lucky,

i have never been romantically involved with a psychopath, but i will be so bold to say that i have come to understand a fair bit about them from knowing two on a friendship level. for me, these are the biggest warning signals (but i'll stress "when they are in conjunction"):

1. charming and articulate. they always seem to know what to say and are relaxed, good, entertaining, eclectic conversationalists (at first).

2. generate an "ideal person" image. they have a powerful ability to make us see them as rare, exceptional people, even though we may know that they are not that accomplished... they are good at presenting themselves as superb people who have been held back from "going places" by being misunderstood and wrongfully belittled. i'm a real sucker for that... well i was anyway.

3. pathological lying. they make up stories that are pretty unbelievable given the information you have about them. a psychopath, however, is FAR FAR from a typical BSer. these stories are delivered so flawlessly that you are compelled to believe them at first. i like to think of these stories as internally yet not externally consistent (i.e., they sound good in and of themselves but are often disconfirmed by reality).

4. scapegoating. it's always somebody else's fault, no matter what. for a while you might support this illusion, but make no mistake, everything will be your fault too, once they see that you are starting to doubt the image they have constructed of themselves in your mind (usually in about 2-3 months I find).

5. deliberately tries to confuse and intimidate when confronted or questioned. psychopaths and narcissists will try and flip your words around on you, often bringing up things from the past or thing they know about you that they know you have issues with. they use this strategy to prevent legitimate communication about "reality", which they actually seem to fear. they will also scapegoat and make you look like the villain when you are merely asking for clarification.

As far as the behavioral factors (substance abuse, etc.) often associated with psychopathy, I tend to think that these are more products of particular upbringing and life circumstance/environment. The range of actual overt behaviours of Ps seems quite wide (e.g., some are health freaks), but the above list of interpersonal things seems to fit them all. lucky, i can't say anything for sure about this guy, but i hope what i've said here might help you sort things out a bit. and i'd also like to say thanks to kris for her contributions.

persistent

lucky:
When I was trying to determine if the P I knew was really a P, I looked over the list of traits. First I was relieved for he didn't meet all the criteria or at least I thought!As time went on, I discovered I just WASN'T AWARE that he did have all the traits. One in particular is the same one you feel the man you know does not have-criminal behavior. Writing checks on a closed account is certainly criminal, for it is considered a felony. I received a bogus check in March of 2002, but discovered this P had been "wanted" by the County Attorney since Oct 2001. I had no clue that during all the time I knew this young man that he was committing this kind of crime. Are you sure this man has not possibly been involved in the same way? If you look back over old post you will notice that fraudulent check writing on a closed account is a common trait. As for the oral fixation-tobacco chew and gum was used ALL the time with the P I knew.

Lucky, Please don't ever let this man alone with your children. Psychopaths will target single parents to get at their children. They are good and they are smooth. Sex addicts and/or psychopaths use and abuse any and all that move. Sex addicts have been abused themselves and continue the legacy. Please protect your children. Run lke the wind and don't look back.