I've just had a rather jarring experience of how my life with a psychopath has set me apart from the mainstream. I read last night, in a writer's group, six pages from my book, "Psychopath". I ended the reading to the silence of a stunned and speechless audience. I laughed, and someone said something on the order of, "Just give us a moment to regroup." I had carefully chosen the passage because it was one of the least intense.

Most of the feedback I got (once anyone could speak) was inappropriate, most of it having to do with details not explained in six pages out of a 600 page book. Anyone who has ever read a book knows that you don't explain the who, what, where, why and how of everything in every passage of a book, but that these are elements which are built up throughout the book. I realized, as I listened, that the memebers of the group had been unable to hear the piece, as a piece of writing, because they had been so traumatized by it. The crticism just had nothing to do with the writing. Then (thank you God) one woman spoke who had been able to hear it. She thought it was powerful writing and she was able to tell me why, and how she reacted to its parts. There were 12 people in the group. When I got my copies back, I discovered one other woman (who had not spoken, but had written notes) had related to the work.

I suspect this is a representative sample of what percentage of people can relate to me. Not just my writing. Me. Because my writing is me. It is my life experience. It is who I am.

This was my second attendance in this group, and I have heard three other people read their work. So I have a reverse comparison which shows me how much I relate to people in the mainstream of life. How much I relate to people who have lived "normal" safe lives. Not very much. I was bored stiff through the other readings, and couldn't figure out why the writers cared enough to write about the things they wrote about. This is terrible, but I found myself thinking, "Who cares?" through the other readings.

It is simply that my life experience has set me apart. To make a stark comparison...someone who spent 30 years in a concentration camp would hardly find it engaging or relevant to read musings about the aroma of somebody's mother's apple pie. Not if that is the substance of the work. It just doesn't matter very much. In the scope of that person's life, it's too small.

This experience serves as a metaphor, for me, of the plight of psychopath's victim. We cannot relate deeply to most others because most others cannot relate deeply to us. They can't know us. They cannot conjure our internal space. They can't go there with us. They don't know the place, and they are horrified by it. Conversely, we are lonely with them. Their internal space feels limited to the most superficial aspects of our own human experience.

thanks for starting this thread, kris

victims of psychopaths are quite an "ingroup" in themselves because we are the only ones truly capable of understanding one another's experiences on a fundamental level. To paraphrase Hume, it is difficult to think about what we have never felt, either through our internal or external senses. the only thing we can do is welcome more victims into the ingroup and attempt to educate the outgroup. unfortunately the most thorough education in these matters is obtained at the expense of one's psychological well-being.

kris you have inspired me to write a little piece of my own here, tonight. i have done some creative writing in the past on different topics accessible to all, but here is something i am sure only this group could internalize. this one is for all of us. it still needs quite a bit of work, but i really wanted to hear what you guys had to say.

UNDERSTANDING CRYSTALLIZED: AFTERMATH

Seemingly out of nowhere
You plummeted into my world
Something within you extended its warm, icy, beautiful, shoddy, decadent tendrils
Grasped me, held me, drew me in, enticed me
What is that seductive entity within you?
Does it awaken in the presence of insecurity? of love yearning for release? of love yearning for direction, a target?
Become the target, begin to feed, absorb
Potential sustenance for the illusion, you hear your master's call
The dark dance commences
I give you the lead, all questions are silenced, the spell's hands are firmly pressed over my lips, silenced, enthralled
Deciphering me, decoding me, cataloguing the valuables
Reptilian brain processing my signals in incomprehensible ways
Fusing them, integrating them, becoming what I want, need, desire
Reactive droid, select your responses, your smooth speech extracts what you need from me
Stimulate your pleasure centers, pipelines to the illusion, feed the fire
Improbable tales, inconsistencies?
No matter, you are good, you are beautiful, we are interlinked
Dark screenplay, pen in your hand, chapter of my life
What do you want?
Please take whatever you want
Please just serve yourself
You serve only yourself
I serve only yourself
I think I might be losing myself
No need to search for myself
Blissful oblivion
My first failure to follow your script, your precious script
Just a little thing, such a little thing, such a tiny question, such a small doubt, so infinitesimal, i just want a little clarification
I see the mask slip ever so slightly, righteous indignation flits over your features like a barely perceptible shadow
Dismiss it, bury it, forget it, everyone falters after all, do they not?
After all, our souls are securely locked, are they not? our connection unbreakable?
But more questions begin, doubts expressed, snowballing, chipping the mask away proportionately
Piece by carefully constructed piece, constructed from me, built from the inner me, your mask for me and no one but me, i helped build it, it is part of me
No it is all of me
Lies begetting lies begetting lies, insanity or memory loss? what is happening to you? are you losing cohesion?
Already in your mind, you are pulling away
Illusion beginning to die of starvation
I try to ground us in reality, you flee by delivering pain to me
Half-life of beautiful evil has arrived
First using me for me for you, uphill
Now using me against me for you, downhill
Reverse causality, all so confusing
I against I, me against me, you the promoter, the producer, the verbal sorceror, the referee
Back and forth
Give me sporadic love, intermittent love
Just make me press the lever for that food pellet all the faster
Dying of exhaustion, drowning in a vortex
Trying to get you back
The you of brighter times
Futile, futile
Wipe my name from the screenplay, my life from the script
But keep the structure, keep the style
You sight your next target, your pen strikes the page
Psychopath, psychopath
My gaze finally lances through you
Blackness, blackness
Nothing else constitutes you
Only others like me can help me see, clear the waste products from my eyes
The clouds you summoned
Finally losing the last dregs of love I have for you

persistent

Kris-
I'm new here, but until you have lived through it, is boggles the human mind to think there are people that commit the atrocities they do. Our physe (spelling?) was not designed to accept this. It is so unspeakable.
They were obviously so "tramatized" from the content they couldn't get past it.
I read with interest all your postings. Your postings have ministered to me so much. It comes through very clearly, but only because I had this recent experience.
Your book will be embraced by those who are going through or have been where you are struggling to get out of the snake pit.. I never saw this kind of information before and even though I just went through that horrendeous experience, it is still unbelievable to think that was actually inside that person. vile, contemptable...dispicible. If it were me in the audience ten days ago, even with P#1, without my recent experience and how it related to practically all the posting I may have had the same reaction.
You and many others on the forum have been my lifeline.
Your postings with the information and sharing your personal history has literally saved my life. I know I'll move on eventually, but not until I have educated myself well on the nature of the snake. That's why I'll keep coming here and keep learning. . .Thank you for sharing. I've learned so much in just a few days.
Sincerely,
Finished

persistent,

Ha ha. I can't resist. I'll do a little critique. This piece has great potential.

First, I think it needs editing, paring down to poetic bones, less words. An example:

"Seemingly out of nowhere
You plummeted into my world
Something within you extended its warm, icy, beautiful, shoddy, decadent tendrils
Grasped me, held me, drew me in, enticed me"
See how this sounds:

Out of nowhere
You plummeted into my world
Extended your warm, icy, beautiful, shoddy, decadent tendrils
Grasped me, held me, drew me in

Another example:

"Reptilian brain processing my signals in incomprehensible ways
Fusing them, integrating them, becoming what I want, need, desire"

Shorter version:

Reptilian brain processing my signals
Fusing, integrating, becoming my want, need, desire

Listen to the sound and rhythm of it, in your head.

You have some beautiful phrases to work with. Some of my favorites:

warm, icy, beautiful, shoddy, decadent tendrils

you hear your master's call
The dark dance commences

the spell's hands are firmly pressed over my lips, silenced, enthralled
(this one needs a slight change in order to maintain a consistent voice, for example:)
the spell's hands are firmly pressed over my lips, I am silenced, enthralled

Deciphering me, decoding me, cataloguing the valuables

Half-life of beautiful evil

I against I, me against me, you the promoter, the producer, the verbal sorceror, the referee (but this one sounds better if you drop the word "verbal"...and should it be you against me?)

Give me sporadic love, intermittent love

Blackness, blackness
Nothing else constitutes you
(I like this, but would shorten it:)
Blackness, blackness
constitute you

Those are just a few of the great phrases.


I think, in the swtiching between the victim's experience and his subjective experience of what the psychoapth is doing to him, the "me" and "you" needs a bit more clarifying. For example:

"Reactive droid, select your responses, your smooth speech extracts what you need from me
Stimulate your pleasure centers, pipelines to the illusion, feed the fire"

I, reactive droid, you select your responses, extract what you need from me
To stimulate your pleasure center, pipeline to the illusion, feed the fire

Those are the 2 things I see: paring down, and making transitions between "you" and "me" clearer.

Good work.

This critique may not survive the admisistrators. Hee hee. And I promise not to do it, again.

kris

finished,

Yes, and I had been careful to choose a piece not so loaded. I didn't know how much the general audience could assimilate, and I was off by a mile. I don't know if a writer's group will work for me. My goal is to get feedback on this book. This is the one I am attempting to sell, the one I need feedback on right now. I had wondered if it would be possible, at all, to share this writing in a group, and I think it is not really possible. Which leaves me with the problem of having to pay a professional consultant if I want this kind of feedback. A professional, at least, would disconnect from the content.

You and persistent are both right. People cannot relate to an experience which they have not had. Nor can they hear it, if it is terrible, without being shocked into silence.

You also speak to a fact about this experience, which contributes to the denial of the victim...sometimes longterm denial. We can't believe it, and so we don't believe it. When I look back, I am stunned by the outrageous behaviors which I did not assimilate, at the time. Events that were so "out there" that I had no place to put them, within my perspective, so they just dribbled away into outer space. It took me decades to finally gather up all that stuff, assimilate it, and let the whole picture speak to me the irrational truth of what a psychopath is. First, I had to know there was such a thing. I had to have a frame of reference.

I am encouraged to hear that my writng has helped you. God willing, my book will get out there, and help others.

And I just have to accept that my writing or talking about this will never lend itself to being heard by those in the mainstream of life. It is an isolating factor. But I am blessed to not be completely isolated as I was before I found this forum.

kris

kris, persistent,

This is great! Before I continue with discussing the helpful critique of persistent's offering, I would like to chime in and add my voice to the testimony regarding kris's gift of writing and knowlege of psychopathy and how much it has helped me personally on my journey of growth and healing. Thanks for your great generosity in sharing it with us, (((kris))). An oasis to a parched soul, a rare jewel. And I'm so happy that you've decided to show the world. You bravery is an inspiration to me. Reading your work to a bunch of strangers. Now that takes major guts, lol! It won't take long now for you to be "discovered".

Persistent, lots of interesting imagery. Thanks for showing us. And aren't you the special one to have kris's commentary! lol

Cherie

Oh, Cherie, Thank you, thank you. I'd be in deep waters if I didn't have the validation I get on this forum, from souls marked by parallel experience.

Reading my work to a bunch of strangers either took guts or incredible naivete, I think more of the latter. In that sense, my psychopath experience has not changed me enough.

Here's a hug back ((Cherie)).

kris

Kris

In some ways our experience reminds people of the Holocast at a lesser level. No value on a human life. We exist for their pleasure. When we veiw the atrocities it is incomprehensible to believe humans could reach this level of degradation. Everytime I have ever veiwed this kind of history, I have to shove it down, somewhere. It shakes me to the core. If I allow myself to think on it to much it would "mess up my mind" ALOT.

I could so identify with your story (as with many others) and your answers seemed well thought out. You took the topic, expound and followed with examples. Anybody really affected by a p could relate to. The others, it just wouldn't compute. I pray! And I will pray God lead you to the right place, right time, right people who can see the value of your material and provide you the resources you need to complete your work. I never thought I would need information like this, see. . .you never know.

You wrote "You also speak to a fact about this experience, which contributes to the denial of the victim. . .sometimes long term denial. We can't believe it, and so we don't believe it"

I told my brother last night. He has a masters degree in physcology (spelling?). My brother knows all my history with p#2. He had never judged or critized and all he has said to me in my questionings, why, why, why? He would say It is all about sex. I'd say I don't see it, I don't see it. P#2 and I had not been together for a long time. I told him, p#2, 18 or 20 months ago, I couldn't do this anymore, it was to hard on me. So it came as a shock to my brother to hear I went to him.


He told me I was at a place where I could have split and detached (I don't know this kind of jargon)
In a very stern tone, he said good. You need to feel it all of it. He went on to tell me I had stepped out somewhere HUGE. Spoke SERIOUSLY to me about my own selfishness and desire for self gratification. The jepardary and example I was setting for my family (even if it had been a secret).

He said, you need to feel all of it. The consequeses of your part. Just earlier that day a friend had called and asked how I was. I told here not so good. She said you sound good. I said, "I have on my game face" a survivial skill I learned in my p history.

That was his point, he wanted me to be sure I was done with this p#2 and if I started detaching I soon minimizing, rationaling and could be drawn into joining p#2 in his world of darkness. And me putting on a "Christian" personna. ie; MY personality would be split.

It was like a shock rippling though my whole being when he said it. Then he said, you. . .figure out a way to bring closure.

He said if I continued to participate there was a chance I was also a p.

Talk about scary.. me a p! Oh dear God no. The point, for me. . .when I compromised my core values, as I did, these are the predators I attract. It was directly like this. . .don't learn here. . .no help for you. You have established a pattern. The point from him being I was already starting to detach from it, and that was a DANGER. I guess thats where the splitting was. Detach and go back, put on your game face (chirpy cheerleader) and deny this nightmare REALLY happened. Don't deal with the root problem which was the flaw in my character. . .yes there are lots of reasons I got to be the way I am. . .but. . .there was something in me that drew these snakes to me.

Here is what I told me brother. The more I thought about it today, it is true. P#2 murdered that girl, October 1,2002. He drugged her, sexually assalted her, and when he was done using her, put her out on a dark loney road to find her way out of the maze. It was like Pin the Tail on the Donkey. Let's put on the blindfold, spin her around, put her it the car and bye bye. When I drove out, I was already as good as dead. That's the truth.

This has been a bad day for me. This probably doesn't even make sense.

Thank you for providing this outlet for me to express.. .
Gratefully
Finished

Kris-
I echo Cheries thoughts.
Bravo!
Finished

Finished:

We have to name the experience. When I called it sexual assault, and suggested that he had drugged you,it became clearer in your mind, about what had happened. Instead of your brother attacking you, why couldn't he have just acknowledged the horror of the expereience, that you had been hurt, and hugged you.
Yes, you split, disassociated, went into shock. Call it what you will.
Yes, you have to look at what family dynamics brought you into relationships like this. But not now. It's too soon.
It first has to be acknowledged and named, what that monster did to you.
After what happened to me, telling friends in bits and pieces, I could not put it into a whole picture. I kept trying to get them to tell me, "what happened ?, what happened?, trying to get them to give me a whole picture. But they were unable to. Either because it was so horrific or because I had them as confused as I was. I don't know.
To this day, I can't tell a clear short, overall view of what happened.
I was hurt horribly, severly traumatized and I needed comforting, a hug, kind words. Instead I was forced to prove, what had happened, explaining and explaining what he had done in bits and pieces.
Going to an abuse counsellor, 6 months after the police were called, was the first acknowledgement, I had about what had happened. However, even they said, they had never had dealt with such a severe case of abuse. They were used to "regular" abusive husbands and the abuse they did to their wives.
Stalking, child sex abuse, cons, manipulations, stealing, lies, psychotic behavior, multi-sexual,bestiality peeping, brainwashing, isolating me and my child, psychophrenic behavior, he had people watching my home (telling them I was having an affair with the boss, and to watch for the bosses vehicle at my home to prove it, LIES, LIES, LIES) he had plans to kill me for my business, he's done it before. Power and control.
All of these I had to study and learn to figure out what had happened, what he had meant by the odd weird things he had said and done.
Even though I can relate to everything people say on this board,it's all so familiar, he seemed to encompass the behaviors all of you talk about. I am still so cautious about who is trying to make friends with me, he had people he knew doing this to get information about me. I still feel so alone. To have someone do this, has just been devastating to me. For me to say all the things he did, makes me sound like the crazy one.


A word to Kris:
I couldn't understand why the P who came into my life, was trying to make me jealous all the time with really ugly,repulsive, not nice women. This was before, he had had ever made any sexual moves on me. I'd sit back and wonder, why is he doing that? I never felt any jealousy, why would I? After everything came down, I realized he'd been F***ing them. I almost threw up at the thought of it.

Some people who have been sexually abused as children, will deliberately seek out repulsive people or things to have sex with, almost like they are repeatedly traumatizing themselves, with the original trauma. Feeling the shame, and disgust that they originally felt as children towards the sexual abuse. That old repetion compulsion.
It also serves another purpose, to humilate their partner, break their spirit, make us feel their feelings, to have their partner wonder why they would rather have something so repulsive, than their partner. To make us feel we are less than desirable. Take our sexuality away, and leave us with disgust towards sex, as they feel.
To this day, I can't handle seeing sexual intimacy on television, in books. Even something as innocent as people kissing. Major triggers.

Now I understand why he said he could not watch movies with sex or violence in them.

finished, Yes, many people have trouble dealing with the reality that some among us place no value on a human life. It is probably harder to hear things which suggest there are many such people, and they may appear quite ordinary.

I agree with your brother that you need to feel this traumatic experience you've had, entirely. Over time, those kinds of experiences lose their impact, and their perceived reality. This is probably due to defensive mechanisms in our biology and psychology, which do not serve victims of psychopaths very well, since, if we go back, it will happen, again.

"He said if I continued to participate there was a chance I was also a p."

I suspect your brother may be overstating this because he is afraid for you. It is true that psychopaths' attacks are aimed at our humanity, and sometimes, our physical lives. But most victims who are in love with psychopaths deny and rationalize the attacks and other behavior until it fits within their normal perspectives. This is not to say we cannot have our humnaity destroyed. That is, in fact, the psychopath's goal. To make us just like him. And quench his malignant envy. But I don't think most longterm victims are actually psychopaths. We stay in the relationships because we continue to believe in our good first impressions, and our love for that knight in shining armor who swept us away. We think if we just hang in there, someday, someday, all this crazy stuff will yield its secrets, and make sense. If we stay long enough, there may nothing left of us to make sense with.

An exception to this scenario would be the situation in which the psychopath pairs with another psychopath, or more often, a person with milder psychopathic tendencies. The psychopath then is able to increase and exploit the pathology of his "victim". These are the cases where you see a mother who has allowed the psychopath to abuse her children. Or has aided and abetted the psychopath's other crimes against others.

Your post does make sense, betrayed. You're doing fine. You're gonna make it, and you'll be smarter and wiser, when you get through this.

Thanks for the kind words about my writing ((betrayed)).

kris

Yikes!

betrayed, you can keep the hug I gave you, but here is one for finished ((finished)).

betrayed,

"I couldn't understand why the P who came into my life, was trying to make me jealous all the time with really ugly,repulsive, not nice women."

Ditto. And in ways that I was either sure to catch him, or he would confess and point them out to me. Insult to injury type situations. Which I had a vague intuition, even then, 30 years ago, was meant to take something away from me. Of course, I deep-sixed my intuition. I mean, why would this wonderful man do something like that? I just had to be wrong.

"Some people who have been sexually abused as children, will deliberately seek out repulsive people or things to have sex with, almost like they are repeatedly traumatizing themselves, with the original trauma. Feeling the shame, and disgust that they originally felt as children towards the sexual abuse."

I think there is something to that. And that they want to rub the victim's nose in it, to get her to feel the shame for them. Which I certainly did. I mean, I just felt so degraded by my husband's cheating with truly repulsive women when he could be with me. I was young and pretty then. I totally lost my feeling of being young and pretty after a few years of being with the psychopath. I felt old and ugly by the time I was 22. I feel younger and prettier, now, at 50, than I did at 22.

"It also serves another purpose, to humilate their partner, break their spirit, make us feel their feelings, to have their partner wonder why they would rather have something so repulsive, than their partner. To make us feel we are less than desirable. Take our sexuality away, and leave us with disgust towards sex, as they feel."

Ah. I guess I just said the same thing you did.

"To this day, I can't handle seeing sexual intimacy on television, in books."

Neither can I, but it's getting a little better, now. I've been out of hell one year, and this pain, shame and disgust is starting to let up.

A day at a time.

kris

" Yikes!

betrayed, you can keep the hug I gave you, but here is one for finished ((finished)). "



Hey Kris. Thanks for the chuckle!! Hey, I'll take one anyway I can get it. Even mistakenly!! LOL

betrayed,

Here's one just for you ((betrayed)). No mistake.

kris

Kris, you are so wise and kind. I wasn't aware how terribly much the little girl in me really needed that. Thank you.

Kris-
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

The words on this forum are the only words that have comforted me at all.

After he was done with me I felt like I was infected with the dispicable vermon that had just spilled on me. I had to reexperience the shame and guilt all over again. Before this assalt, I had planned to move back to my home state and stay with him for awhile and start to heal. Last night he told me I had to stay here until I was strong enough to stand up to ps. P#2 murdered me. I am dead to him. I feel like another part of me died last night. . .I now have to prove myself to my brother the only one I thought (besides my children) who loved me unconditionally.

Now, I have no safe refuge and place I could go until I get strong. If I did not have a strong spiritual base, I don't know what I would do. We believe in the "generational" curse thing, so basically he told me I'm infected and would infect his home plus look at all the sexual sin in MY family. If I don't deal with it in myself I cannot expect them to be delivered. . . It was a harsh judgement. He said if I leave, I'll be running away, not dealing with it even though I had told him repeatedly that I could feel the "pull" of this p on me needed to put distance between us.

Now, I feel like I have to prove myself in some ways that I really am delivered from ps. so be it. i have to "prove" myself once again to be accepted. I will try to believe he still really cares about me. I'm serious, if I had not found you all I would not have a shed of sanity left. Thank you God for all those who understand how traumitized I am. (God BlessYou all)

Even my brother has judged me not in so many words but I have to get "straightened" out before I leave.

It brings back a very early childhood memory when my lunatic monther was raging on me. Usually, when she started that, I would brace myself inside and somehow withstand the attack. This particular time, she didn't stop until I was broken in peices. Then I was banished to my room not to come out until I had straightened myself out. I died some that day too. If there is a pattern, it is there has never been a soft place to fall. Anyone to offer human kindness and touching me with no strings attached. Like I said in an earlier posting, I have just moved from one p to anouther. This last one being the most insidious. I'm cying as I write this. Your validation of my experience is all I have.

Maybe my brother was just to close to the situation. I waited eight days before I told him. I had not told him because I thought he would be so outraged he would come out here and tear my assualter limb to limb. My fairy tale. There is no knight in shining armour and obviously I would not tell this to my adult male children. So, I have to recover from this assualt AND change my plans to move AND figure out, go confront my assaulter, and rebuild my life. My head is spinning (litteraly) as I think of this. Then I'm a good girl again, I'll be accepted. I feel so alone and I have to figure out how to rebuild my life. The love and support I'll get will be from a distance.

So split, now I feel split in another way, from my brother. I know he has to protect his family and I'm the carrier of the "family curse"'. My brain cannot wrap around that. If this was one of my daughers this happened to her, I would RUN to her. I would not scold her. I would offer a safe haven until she had recovered enough to get her wits about her. I would trust that and close encounter of the most henious kind would be lesson enough. Then let's deal with the other issues. But, I'm a woman. Maybe that is the difference. I', a nurturer, a comforter, I would offer all the comfort I could. . .


Yesteday, I told another person close to me and she tried to rationalize his P#2 behavior. There is not one flesh and blood person here, besides my tharpist that understands how traumitized i am.. I think I"ll do what you did and seek specialized counsel. Someone specialized in abuse issues.

I can't say anymore. . .this is to great for me to look at right now. . .

Thank you all for being there for me.. . .
I'll survive. . .won't I.
I have to.
Finished
I

Kris-

Thank you for your words.

The third paragraph describes me. I was trying to peel back the layers, discect it so to speak, make it fit. These words really helped me. alot. . .

Thank you for the hug (((((kris))))) back

Bless you

Finished

betrayed,



kris

finished,

Reading your more recent post, I got a clearer image of the exchange between you and your brother. And then, the childhood memory of your mother raging at you, then sending you into isolation to suffer alone... Well, without getting judgmental, I just want to say, don't take the conversation with your brother to heart. I suspect he was speaking out of his own issues, and there is not much there to help you with yours.

The psychopath experience is, indeed, isolating. Those who have not "been there" can't relate. And I think there is another category of people who can't relate. Those who have been traumatized themselves, and have not effectively dealt with the trauma to the extent that they have developed the strength and courage to stand in that place, with a victim, and be present for them.

This is all disappointing and difficult for us. Where do we turn when our family and friends cannot be a refuge or a support for us? My answer to that is...it is no wonder we often turn back to the psychopath. The lack of validation in our environments may send us into a tailspin wherein we fall to self-doubt, confusion, and fear. In such a highly compromised traumatized state, we lack the strength to go it alone.

And so, I will say it, again. Thank God for this forum. You are also blessed, finished, to have a therapist who can give you sound reflection and validation.

Yes, you are going to survive. Definitely.

kris

God bless you, Kris,

I was just thinking that if this experience were to rob me of my brother, my champion, encourager, support, confidant, what a devasting loss. I will accept your words and look for help and support from those that are not emotionly involved. I know he is scared (he didn't say that). He is scared I'll go back into the arms of p#2. I'm the one who has been legally divorced twice and married three times to p#1. I can see why he has his issues here. His oldest daughter was date raped about five or six years ago. I'm sure this probably dredges up all that old garbage.

"where do we turn when our family and friends and cannot be a refuge or support us? . . . is it no wonder we turn back to the arms of the p." P#1 has moved out of state and calls me from time to time. He has called several times the last few days. He KNOWS me and KNEW all was not well. He sounded so "nice" and me so desperate, I thought, Oh listen, he sounds so nice . . . he would come back here and help me. I think dawn is breaking. . .this is how the cycle of abuse continues. . .

I'll let go of this feeling about my brother. . .he is doing the best he can. I was able to accept most of what he said but when he told me I couldn't come out as planned, I saw myself as forever damaged goods. I could see my life like a peice of fruit, under scrutiny until I passed inspection. It was a shock!

Thank you for your words of wisdom. And for my tharpist who tells me I have GREAT INSTINCTS. . .

Appreciatively
finished

"Yesteday, I told another person close to me and she tried to rationalize his P#2 behavior. There is not one flesh and blood person here, besides my tharpist that understands how traumitized i am.. I think I"ll do what you did and seek specialized counsel. Someone specialized in abuse issues."


Finished, The abuse councillor at the women center's was the first live validation for me. But she could only go so far. After the situation where the police were called to get him out of my store, I read and I read and I read. That really helped validate my experience, too. I finally got the proper treatment from a psychologist who is a trauma specialist. She took me on for free, god bless her. The P had cleaned me out and put me in a situation, where I was just trying to keep my head above water. For a time it was either keep sinking deeper in debt, or get out and start something new. I love my job, can't wait to get up in the morning. I was damned if the P was going to take that away from me too. I'm almost back to where I was before the P targetted me. Slowly getting all the debts paid off. Day by day, baby step by baby step. I had even lost all my hair everywhere on my body ( head, eyebrows, legs, arms, everywhere ),due to the terror of the stalking, but it just started growing back. ( It really sucked being totally bald for 2 years )


My family just pretended none of this was happening. Didn't want to hear about it, didn't want to talk about it. Even made jokes about my being bald. The cruelity of my family is immeasurable. Totally ignored my daughter when she told them he had been following her around one day. They were supposed to be babysitting her at the time and had been told to report anything suspicious to the police. There was no support. I feel like I grew up in the "Adam's Family"

Hey, if I can make it through this, I can make it through anything. He didn't destroy me, despite his best efforts. I came out the other side, stronger, wiser. I was forced to look at my own family disfunction. Maybe I needed something so horrid to wake me up and heal. There are so many people out there still in trance, still asleep, still in denial. You have to find someone awake. When the student is ready, the teacher will come. BUT DID IT REALLY HAVE TO BE IN THE FORM OF SATAN. !!!! LOL

Betrayed

Oh betrayed-

Thank you for sharing your story. I have drawn such strength and encouragement from you all here on the forum. I KNOW ten days ago your story would not mean as much to me as it does today. I might have read it and thought , wow, that's terrible. But once you have been where we have it takes on a whole new meaning. . It helps me put my deal in perspective and when I read your story. How hard that had to be first to go through it all and then with no hair. I know how I am about my hair. It's a big part of my appearance (((betrayed)))) I see you doing it one day at a time and MAKING IT!! Thats encouraging. I got up this morning and thought how am I going to do this. I felt my brother had banished me to "Syberia" but actually this afternoon, I think I'm okay with that. I can't imagine packing up for a major move right now. That's a whole nother stress issue.

"I was forced to look at my whole family disfunction. Maybe I needed something really horrid to wake me up to heal. There are so many people out there still in a trance,still asleep, still in denial.". Boy do I relate to that. And I also relate to the teacher. . .SATAN! Apparently that was what it took to snap me out of the trance, wake me up and give up the denial. . .it was as though it HAD to get that bad for me to see it. Thank you for responding. . .I so appreciate it.
finished

hi kris,
thanks for taking the time to comment on the poem. if i was a narcissist i would flee the forum... just kidding.
i will probably work on it some more and post it again at a later date.
persistent

Thanks Finished. I didn't mean for it to sound mine is worse than yours. And I don't think you took it that way. Your body and psyche have been just as damaged as mine. Mine still could have been so much worse. What happened to you doesn't make it any less. All of us have been shaken to the core with our experiences. Having those emotions flipping back and forth. Having the trauma race through our brains, till it feels like our brains are going to explode. Feeling so confused. The unrealness of it all. Slowly, layer by layer having the reality setting in, Betrayed, manipulated, abused and conned. Being led to believe one thing is going on, when actually there is a whole different agenda happening. I adored and was in love with him. He was my friend. I admired and respected him. I still fight these feelings. Trauma bonding at it's finest.

The hair thing. Well, you know I had beautiful long thick wavy honey brown hair. It was part of who I was. Maybe, too much of who I was. Our sexuality as women is so tied into it.I had to think, am I me because of my hair or my body, my mind, who am I? Or do people like me because I have other qualities? More importantly, did I like myself. I had to take inventory. I knew hair and looks were not important in how I felt about other people. It was those other simple things. Kindness, trustworthiness, honesty, humour,gentleness, being reliable that made me like someone. It all seemed so superficial, the hair thing. Maybe I was rationalizing.....
BUT, I sure as hell am glad it's back.

I'm glad your feeling a little stronger today. Baby step. Baby step.

Thanks (((Finished)))

PS. I didn't confuse something, did I? One of your posts, didn't say you were going to confront P#2 about the assault, did it?

betrayed-

You are correct, I was not saying saying that but knowing how some women (me being one) are about our hair. It is also an expression of who we are. It is not all ABOUT it nor does it totally DEFINE us, but it plays a part. When I read your account my heart reached out because it was like "add insult (not a descriptive word in any sense) to injury".

I also was in love with p#2. He had spent years laying the foundation. I remember talking to him the night before we first "went there"' I asked him, "did you not know you were pulling on my heart?". To which he replied (first known lie) "No". Yes, he did, he was working on me then. I really thought he was a friend a true friend. So, when things immediately started going south (that's when the first trauma started) my rational brain told me one thing but it didn't match the foundation he laid. I would think, we are friends, surely I am misreading this. And my mind started trying to make it all fit. I fit the "betrayed post tramua" to a tee. I think I scored 24 on the test. THAT'S HIGH. At that point, I became pretty much putty in his hands. He said come, I came. He said go, I go. And I worked form him so you can imagine how I tried to please him in every way I could. I was a puppet.

I had tried on MANY occasions to free myself. But, I would always come back.

That's scarey isn't it? This time, I barely escaped, alive. I was just reading Diane last posting which led me to read the previous information on serial killers and sexual predators. It is a chilling description of me. The victim me. I saw how he idealized me. Put me on a pedastal almost then after he "had" me, hated me. Twisted and weird. He punished me for loving him.

The second night we were together, he had music going on his CD player. The first night it had been Yanni. I recognized it was Yanni and asked what it was. He said it was one of his particular favorites. "Reflections of Passion". Okay the second time, it was Rpbert Palmers favorite Hits. Not your usual background music now that I think of it. There are seventeen songs on this CD and it begins and ends with "Addicted to Love".

I had this flashback Wednesday morning about that. I remembered him saying after a particular song had played, "that is a good song". Now remember this guy does not talk much and I was so nervous, because I'm doing something I've not done before, so I sure in the world was not paying any attention to the lyrics of a song. So. . .I went out and bought the album. If you listen to it one way, the way I WAS listening to it, it could be taken one way. When I listened to it Wednesday, IT HAD A WHOLE NEW MEANING. A very scary one. In an earlier post, I remember writing, I felt there was a power to "take me out" well THANK GOD it didn't.

It goes like this. A few of the words I didn't get but you'll get the gist.

The title is: You Are In My System

Day by day
Night by night
I feel you in my mind
It happens all the time
You know my vision stops
My heart beats on
I can't take it anymore
It's you I live for
Chorus
You are in my system
repeat
I want you to know that
You are in my system
OhOhOhoh you are in my system. system
Oh baby you are in my system
Don't you know that baby

I'll keep pushing, pushing
Until I get through
My main objective baby
Is to get to you
Turn your mind around
I know will take time
I know it will now
Your'e on my mind
Oh baby

Chorus
Your'e in my system
repeat
got me burning
I'm of fire
You are in my system
your'e everything I need
I want you to know that
You got me right down to the wire
You are in my system
Got me burning
I'm on fire
Chorus again
Your in my system

Your'e everything I need
Don't you know that baby
It's a romantic vision
Of me and you
It happens all the time
My dreams are filled with you
There's no doubt in my mind
I'll be true
YOU KNOW I'LL TAKE YOU OUT
and I'll keep loving you

and then the chorus to the end.
You OhOhOhohh your in my system
got me burning I'm on fire
and repeat until the end.

I feel the impact of it now as I write it, and yet it seem so far out there it's hard to beleive. I was targeted.

As to the confront. Did I say that. I do want to say to his face it is OVER. DON'T CALL , WE ARE HISTORY.

What are your thoughts on that?

Thank you again for your feedback and letting me share. . .

finished

The lyrics to addicted to love are pretty intense as well if you read it from a p mind.

ADDICTED TO LOVE


Your lights are on, but you're not home
Your mind is not your own
Your heart sweats, your body shakes
Another kiss is what it takes

You can't sleep, you can't eat
There's no doubt, you're in deep
Your throat is tight, you can't breathe
Another kiss is all you need

Whoa, you like to think that you're immune to the stuff, oh
yeah

It's closer to the truth to say you can't get enough, you
know you're

Gonna have to face it, you're addicted to love

You see the signs, but you can't read
You're runnin' at a different speed
You heart beats in double time
Another kiss and you'll be mine, a one track mind

You can't be saved
Oblivion is all you crave
If there's some left for you
You don't mind if you do

Whoa, you like to think that you're immune to the stuff, oh
yeah

It's closer to the truth to say you can't get enough, you
know you're

Gonna have to face it, you're addicted to love

Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love

GUITAR SOLO (ONCE AROUND)

Your lights are on, but you're not home
Your will is not your own
You're heart sweats and teeth grind
Another kiss and you'll be mine

Whoa, you like to think that you're immune to the stuff, oh
yeah

It's closer to the truth to say you can't get enough, you
know you're

Gonna have to face it, you're addicted to love

Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love
Might as well face it, you're addicted to love.


Ooh, that song "You're in my System" is just so haunting isn't it. They know exactly what they are doing. By playing that song he was almost taunting you cryptically.

All the little words, that have stuck in your head, or just did not seem appropriate at the time, they all went deep into the subconcious, to spew out later, to horrify you.

Almost like they are putting them in deliberately at the time, so your unconcious feels the threat.

The P that targetted me, kept tellng me over and over again, how important it was for me to understand that all the new things that are made nowadays are made to be broken. So you have to buy new ones to replace them rather than repair them. Over and over, he kept saying to me, "it's important you understand". He would say it frantically. I just said right, whatever, I know that.

This connected up, with him being enraged at me,another time, because I never paid attention to the lyrics of songs. It was just so bizarre, him being so angry at me over that.

I had all this plus a million other things he had said and done swirling in my head, about a month after the police got him out of my store.

I realized to my horror this song had been playing in the background at the store every time he'd mentioned how important it was for me to understand that everythings made to be broken.


Iris by Goo Goo Dolls

And I'd give up forever to touch you
'Cause I know that you feel me somehow
You're the closest to heaven that I'll ever be
And I don't want to go home right now
And all I can taste is this moment
And all I can breathe is your life
'Cause sooner or later it's over
I just don't want to miss you tonight
And I don't want the world to see me
'Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am
And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything feels like the movies
And you bleed just to know you're alive
And I don't want the world to see me
'Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am
And I don't want the world to see me
'Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am
And I don't want the world to see me
'Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am
I just want you to know who I am
I just want you to know who I am
I just want you to know who I am



A part of him was warning me.

Oh girl. . .this is so beyond my scope of thinking. I don't know if I would have ever believed something like this if it not have happened to me. So many little things (red flags) I ran through. It's all coming back to me. . .
Thanks for sharing. There is comfort in this similarity.
Bless you
Finished

It boggles the mind in how they think and operate. I think this is part of what is so isolating in the experience of a victim. They talk so cryptically, in metaphors and symbols and projection and backwards talk. Very schizophrenic. The P said to me towards the end, when I said he was being paranoid about someone not liking him. "I'm not paranoid !, I'm not schizophrenic!"

I still can't believe I was so dazed and stunned, I didn't at the time recognize something was horribly wrong. I feel so stupid. If some other person had just done or said one thing like he had, I would of instantly known they were mentally ill. But it was all done soo slowly. I am so glad you brought it up about the songs. I felt comforted too, in this similarity. Thank you, too, for empathizing about my hair. It was devastating, it was just another on the pile I already had of stuff to cope with. I was in shock over that too. I could not believe it. I couldn't accept it. The rumours flew around my small town, that I had undergone cancer treatment. But not one person asked me about it. A friend of mine from out of town, came to visit. He broke down in tears at the sight of me. I am so tired of crying, but I know it's healthy and healing. I someimes go days without crying now. Before it was a daily event.


" As to the confront. Did I say that. I do want to say to his face it is OVER. DON'T CALL , WE ARE HISTORY.

What are your thoughts on that? "


Aha, I knew I had read that you wrote that, just had to find it.

" So, I have to recover from this assualt AND change my plans to move AND figure out, go confront my assaulter, and rebuild my life. My head is spinning (litteraly) as I think of this. "




This guy sexually assaulted you, this guy drugged you, this guy abused you. He is a dangerous person. This is not a normal person, where you break off with them. He will twist your words, seduce you back in, deny the assault, get off on your pain,turn it around, his response is unpredictable. NO CONTACT is the only way with these people. Always remember, he set out to destroy you. That's what they do.

I don't know what you are going to do, since you work with him. It's too bad he can't be charged with sexual assault.

PS. While I was looking for your post where you mentioned about confronting him, I came across where you mentioned he did not ejaculate most of the time. These guys have such a need for power and control, some of them can not even let that go.

A girlfriend who was with an abuser, mentioned her guy had the same problem. A doctor had even diagnosed it for him. They have a medical term for it.

Hi Persistent-

When I read your posting the first time, I foggily related to it. I just read it again. The content describes to a tee the entire process, start to finish.

As it relates to me, I so wanted to believe the lie. After all, he had laid a foundation, three years of being a friend to me. Friendhip, heart connection was what I wanted. After we "went there" and it began to immediately unravel, I was trauma bonded to the max.

I also like to write. I only journal for myself.

I destroyed all my journaling that I had done for the past five years just a few days ago. I saw how self deceived I was. I had to shed it. . .I was afraid I would be tempted to believe the lie again.

Thank you for sharing your talent.
I appreciated your ability to describe the seduction start to finish.

I wonder who the next target is?
After all, wasn't that the purpose of sending me out in the darkness, drugged, and lost that night.
Remove this victim and start on a new one.

The interesting thing about this, is when you have faced this kind of death and survived, you really don't fear death anymore. It's already happened. There is a numbness there now. I feel whatever life I have left now is a gift. It was before but now more so.

I am so grateful for my strong spiritual base. I would have totally flipped out without it. AND FOR THIS FORUM. . .THAT HAS VELIDATED MY EXPERIENCE!!!!! THANK YOU GOD FOR LEADING ME HERE. BLESS AND HEAL THESE OTHER VICTIMS, SPIRIT SOUL AND BODY. . .

My prayers are with you ALL.

God Bless you
Finished

persistent, I'll look forward to seeing your poem, again, after you have worked on it some more.

Remember, your art is YOUR art. Feedback from others gives us a different perspective. Things to think about and try out. But, your inner voice is the one that counts most, in your work. So, take what works for you, and leave the rest, in any feedback you ever get.

To thine own self be true.

kris

hi betrayed

you said:

"It boggles the mind in how they think and operate. I think this is part of what is so isolating in the experience of a victim. They talk so cryptically, in metaphors and symbols and projection and backwards talk. Very schizophrenic. The P said to me towards the end, when I said he was being paranoid about someone not liking him. "I'm not paranoid!, I'm not schizophrenic!"

Yes, the semantics of the psychopath's language certainly are baffling and incomprehensible to most of us. I've tried to get my mind around it for quite a while. I guess what we need to remember as a basic rule, just like certain basic rules in math, is that everything in a psychopath's environment must support or validate the untouchable, blameless, perfect self. If aspects of the environment do not support the self at face value, then they will be distorted and perverted until they do, and that includes us, our thoughts and emotions. The seemingly other-worldly language of the psychopath is a tool designed to support their illusion, honed from practice. Here is a great snippet I took from Cherie from a "Gender and Psychopathy" thread. She is talking about an "ex" female friend:

"She had a way of using words and innuendo to make herself sound pure and blameless, even while she was causing pain to those around her."

Indeed!!! The severity of the narcissism that truly defines what we call psychopathy requires a complex and rich (and please don't forget serpentine )linguistic support structure to maintain it. However, I have never seen anyone, theorist or layperson, adequately convey the precise nature of this phenomenon. In the personal attacks I endured from the two Ps I knew (brought on by any attempts I made to assert anything real or substantial), there was just enough reality, just enough fantasy, enough of my own fears and issues and values rolled into one smooth delivery that I bought the invalidation statement... at the moment (but the moment is all that the P cares about anyway). Later on when I had a chance to dissect things, I realized that the constructed attacks really had no substance, although their structure and form were impeccable. They seem to be able to draw together various aspects of the victim's personality and past, as well as any useable features of the environment, to form a convincing invalidation response, even if these things have no logical relation to the original query the victim asked (or the challenge the victim made). If anyone out there has a name and better description of this critical aspect of P interaction, I would be happy to hear it. As yet, I can't really articulate it. But I think it is the best key to maybe understanding and predicting the P.

When I was in graduate studies in psychology one of my favorite research literatures concerned how self-relevant information from one's environment is interpreted and processed using a set of self-schemas, which are interconnected, existing ideas or notions about the self (e.g., specific traits, beliefs, attitudes, etc.). Whenever we are exposed to self-relevant information, we will try to incorporate it into our existing set of schemas, somehow. If it is incompatible with those schemas, then obviously some degree of schema restructuring is in order. I think that all of us sometimes restructure our self-schemas to fit the world, and sometimes we restructure the world to fit our self-schemas. But the degree and location of this restructuring is in large part a function of our personality characteristics. I tend to think of psychopathy as a complete resistance to self-schema restructuring. Rather, psychopaths are at the opposite end of the continuum, driven to perpetually reconstruct the world to match their unrealistic notions of self. This need gives rise to the bizarre and seductive language of the psychopath. But just as a tree that falls in a completely abandoned forest makes no sound, there will be no illusion without a victim to support it. That's why they need us, they need us to validate their network of unrealistic self-schemas. They isolate us from others with their distorted perceptions, and cast us aside when they can twist us no further.

On this forum, we can validate and restructure and empower ourselves in a positive manner through shared experience. Psychopaths don't have that luxury. They will forever be searching for self-validation that has a short half-life. If they had any capacity for self-reflection they really would go insane... so much for the mask of sanity.

persistent
P.S. thanks to all here for the experiences and observations.

hi all,
i meant to add the above reference in my post. it doesn't talk about psychopathy specifically, but it talks about self-schemas and processing and dealing with self-related information. There is a lot of potential for understanding Ps from this perspective I think, even though I am not aware of any works that have made explicit links.

Markus, Hazel, & Wurf, Elissa (1987). The dynamic self-concept: A social psychological perspective. Annual Review of Psychology, Volume 38, 299-337.

Abstract

Discusses research in social psychology that emphasizes the dynamic nature of the self-concept and views self-concept as an active, interpretive structure that is continually involved in the regulation of ongoing behavior. Issues addressed include the content and structure of self-concept, self-regulation (e.g., goal setting, cognitive preparation for action, cybernetic cycle), intrapersonal processes mediated by the self-concept (e.g., information processing, affect regulation, motivation), and interpersonal processes (e.g., social perception, situation and partner choice, interaction strategies). It is concluded that self-concept emerges in the literature as a critical component of the individual's affective and cognitive system.

persistent

kris,
from what you were saying about meloy's book, i think he discusses some issues about the structure of the psychopath's grandiose self and how it deals with self-relevant information? maybe his book is a work that makes the explicit connection between the self-schema literature and psychopathic worldviews, but i haven't read it. was this your impression though? i will have to get this book.
persistent

betrayed, Creepy how popular songs sometimes express the psychopath seduction. It's a fine line, in the falling in love experience, between surrender to a lofty romantic love, and surrender to a psychopathic control. In the beginning, I don't think we can tell the difference because the psychopath is so clever at simulating the real thing. If we are older and more aware, we are more likely to get it when the subtle lying and hurting begins, but here again, if it has not happened to us before, how would we know? I was only 20 when I began my hellish relationship with a psychopath, and for years and years, I rationalized that the relationship hurt so much perhaps because its potential was so great. A sort of thinking that suggested you couldn't aspire to greatness in love without a reciprocal amount of suffering. It was just one of my many rationalizations, in which I took "what was", as my starting point, and attempted to make sense from there.

The pathology of the psychopath's victim is usually, I think, the opposite of that of which she is accused. Especially if she becomes a longterm victim, she is probably a person who strives to accommodate herself to her circumstances, no matter how negative and unacceptable. She is a person who bends, perhaps bends herself into pretzel shapes, in an effort to accommodate others' attitudes, behaviors, ways of being. If something is wrong, her first resort (and second and third) is to look to herself for the source of the problem.

She is often (as this forum has shown) a product of a psychopathic, (or otherwise, personality-disordered) parent. So she has been trained to doubt herself, and set herself aside, to accommodate un unreasonable person, to accept blame which is not her own, and even in the face of her pathological bending, to see herself as a self-centered and trouble-making personality. These are the projections of the parent who has molded her psyche.

But because she partially sees herself this way, when a psychopath gets ahold of her, begins to betray, lie to, sabotage, humiliate her, and she says "ouch" and he says "I'm not trying to hurt you. Why do you see everything I do as being against you?", she thinks, "He is not trying to hurt me." He begins to point to her reactive pain as the real problem in their relationship. The problem is not the pain-causing behavior. The problem is her reaction. According to him, she is looking, with a magnifying glass, for slights to her feelings and well-being. He is just being a normal guy. In this way, he guides her into a chronic shame of her normal human feelings, and her life becomes a struggle to overcome them. And this sick, sick dynamic all began with a beautiful transcendent experience of falling in love, of surrender of self, which marks all falling in love experiences.

"everything's made to be broken"

This could be the psychopath's mantra. Everything's made to be broken. From mere stuff to hearts and souls. From some of my recent reading, which delves into the mindset of psychopaths, and allows the reader to view their world from their perspective, I think they view the world this way, and actually see it as a lofty principle. How can they, a normal person wonders. But they do. They are skewed. They see right as wrong, and wrong as right. And they are actually annoyed by us "idiots" who don't "see the light". We are so stupid, we deserve to be annihilated, they reason.

I think the only person a psychopath could "love" (probably more like "respect") is another psychopath. Interestingly, at the end, my psychopath "fell in love" with another (likely) psychopath. When her selfishness, grandiosity and duplicity began to show, I hopefully pointed out these (to me) unattractive traits. Psychopath smiled a cryptic prideful smile, and said, "no, I like it. She's just like me".

Let them have each other, I say. Let them all have each other. But put them on an island together so that the rest of us are safe.

persistent, Look at that. We were writing about the same thing at the same time. You, being an academic, your language is different.

I put Meloy aside about a week ago (needed a rest), and the content has faded a little bit, now. I read about two-thirds of the book, and while he does not use the model of "self-schema", he certainly discusses that concept in detail. Meloy continually speaks from the premise of "naricissism", and the unbending absolute viewpoint of the pure narcissist is, of course, one in which the only relevant or perceived schema is the self-schema. The world, the universe, all other sentient beings, are viewed as self, to the narcissist. If other beings are in conflict with the narcissist's self-schema, they are wrong, out of synch with the narcissist and must be made to conform, or they must be destroyed. When I say pure narcissist, I am referring to a psychopath. Meloy views the core pathology of a a psychopath as narcissism. The psychopath is the most pathological and intractable and absolute of the narcissistically disordered. I agree with this view.

Any traits which describe the psychopath can be drawn back to a root of narcissism. So can any traits which describe evil. They are parallel realities, clothed in different langauge. Narcissism isn't a trait, really. It is the condition from which all the traits derive. An unbendable self-schema is an inherent characteristic of narcissism. This last paragraph reflcts my own understanding.

I am so glad to see this thread on the site. It is one of the most difficult aspects of the "P" experience to talk about with others. When I try talking about this, friends who have not been through it really can't understand. And the more I try to explain, the crazier I sound. I am really glad to see it on the forum. Haven't read it all yet, but will print and read ASAP.
Blessings to all,
Leti

Hi persistent,

Although I've never heard of self-schemas, I found the explanation of your concept of "psychopathy as a complete resistence to self-schema restructuring" fascinating. You also talk about the "semantics of the psychopath's language" and his "linguistic support structure" which allows him to so often get away with acting as he does. And you ask (refering to the P's ability to construct seemingly cogent and valid assertions which are however revealed as practically devoid of content when examined closely) "If anyone out there has a name and better description of this critical aspect of P interaction, I would be happy to hear it". As a partial response to this challenge I'll try to explain as I understand it Cleckley's concept "semantic disorder". I've wanted to post on semantic disorder for months now but without doing anything with it so let me try to put something together about it now, from books, the internet, and memory.

Dr. Hervey Cleckley MD (1903-1984) was a psychiatrist who practiced nearly his whole life in Augusta, Georgia, affiliated with the Medical College of Georgia. He is known primarily as the father of the modern conception of the psychopath or psychopathic personality. He was also the author, with his close associate Corbett Thigpen, of the famous book about multiple personality (which was turned into a movie) "The Three Faces of Eve" (1957). It should be noted the subject of that book Chris Sizemore published at least two books of her experience, "I'm Eve" and "A Mind of my Own", which were not entirely flattering regarding her treatment by her therapists Thigpen and Cleckley. Cleckley also published the book "A Caricature of Love" (1957) about what he considered the pathology of the homosexual and some other sexual orientations.

Cleckley's Magnum Opus was "The Mask of Sanity: An attempt to clarify some issues about the so-called psychopathic personality" published first in 1941, with new editions in 1950, 1955, 1964, and 1976. He uses his experience with this kind of patient in his own practice to draw a portrait of the psychopath. He talks about the issue in general, gives 19 case histories (click here to view one of them), discusses his list of 16 characteristics of the psychopath, and then offers his theory of "What is wrong with these patients" (i.e. semantic disorder). As Cleckley has contributed so much to our current understanding of the psychopath it's surprising to me that his concept of "semantic disorder" has virtually dropped off the radar. As Cleckley originated the modern concept of the psychopath, and his 16 point clinical profile was the foundation for Hare's 20 item PCL psychopathic checklist, I think it's fair to say that without Cleckley there would have been no Robert Hare, or at least not Hare's conceptions in their current form.

There is quite some confusion about what exactly Cleckley called his theory, and what it encompasses. Even though he's very specific and detailed in his observations of the psychopath, he's quite general and vague on this theory he considers to be the root "cause" of the psychopath's disorder. It's been variously called "semantic aphasia", "semantic dementia", and "semantic disorder". Cleckley says his theory has features similar to that of Henry Head's theory of "semantic aphasia" but that it's not the same thing, so I think the usage of "semantic aphasia" to refer to Cleckley's theory is simply a misunderstanding. I'll use "semantic disorder" though there is a good argument for using the more common "semantic dementia" instead.

Cleckley's approach in his book is to combine careful observations and case histories of his patients with metaphor and literary references and some flowery language to say what he thinks the psychopath is and what he is not. It strikes me as a very sincere and even humble book especially when you consider that as it's his life's work still he makes few claims about what he thinks is wrong with these patients. Most of the time he seems, metaphorically speaking, to shake his head back and forth, thinking "With all of their talents, why in the world do psychopaths act as they do?!". If I may make a metaphor to illustrate the theme which he repeats endlessly throughout the book, the psychopath is like an apple with a beautiful red shiny skin but which is thoroughly rotten on the inside. Over and over he returns to this theme of an outer appearance of not only normality but of being super-normal, without any signs of neurosis or nervousness whatsoever, and hiding behind this "mask of sanity" someone who he frankly considers to be nearly insane.

It's near the end of his book where he introduces psychopathy as a "semantic disorder" in the section "What is wrong with these patients?" pp 367-415 Mask of Sanity 5th ed (1976). He first makes analogies to known speech disorders (aphasias) and whether the defect described in these aphasias is more "central" or "peripheral". Keeping in mind my "apple" metaphor, a "central" defect would be one at the core of the apple, a "peripheral" one would be more apparent, like on the surface of the apple. In speech disorders, he calls an injury to the tongue a "peripheral" defect, while an injury to the supramarginal gyrus of the brain which results in semantically correct but meaningless speech (which Henry Head calls "semantic aphasia") a more "central" defect. Cleckley writes on page 378:

"In semantic aphasia, in which, so to speak, the lesion is more central than in other aphasias, the language function can usually produce more words and better phrases than in verbal or syntactical aphasias, but these have far less meaning or use to the patient. The vehicles or vessels of speech are readily made but emerge empty, devoid of the content they ordinarily define."

On the bottom of page 379 he makes clear (to me) that "semantic aphasia" is meant only as a metaphor to understand the psychopath:

"... it [semantic aphasia] will by analogy help us formulate and clarify a concept of personality disorder, a concept in which the deeper and less obvious levels of function can be compared and contrasted with more superficial aspects of behavior. Let us use the analogy not as evidence for the concept but only as a means of stating it."

Then in the realm of mental disorders he introduces a continuum where the defect is more peripheral to where it's more central. From the peripheral you have delirium which is obvious, to the different schizophrenias, from hebephrenic (catatonic) to more masked versions such as paranoid where the disorder is less apparent, finally to the psychopathic personality where the defect seems masked 100%.

So Cleckley has analogized the speech disorder "semantic aphasia" described by Head with the personality disorder "psychopathy" which he describes, saying in each the defect is more central and therefor masked. But by what logic does he also borrow the term "semantic" when he calls psychopathic personality a "semantic disorder"? It's because, like in "semantic aphasia", the P's words have so little to do with how he feels or what he does. On page 385 he writes:

"What we take as evidence [i.e. what he says] of his sanity will not significantly or consistently influence his behavior. Nor does it represent real intention within, the degree of his emotional response, or the quality of his personal experience ...".

"Let us assume tentatively that the psychopath is, in this sense, semantically disordered. We have said that his outer functional aspect masks or disguises something quite different within, concealing behind a perfect mimicry of normal emotion, fine intelligence, and social responsibility a grossly disabled and irresponsible personality. Must we conclude that this disguise is a mere pretense voluntarily assumed and that the psychopath's essential dysfunction should be classed as mere hypocrisy instead of psychiatric defect or deformity?"

"Let us remember that his typical behavior defeats what appear to be his own aims. Is it not he himself who is most deeply deceived by his apparent normality? Although he deliberately cheats others and is quite conscious of his lies, he appears unable to distinguish adequately between his own pseudointentions, pseudoremorse, pseudolove, and the genuine responses of a normal person. His monumental lack of insight indicates how little he appreciates the nature of his disorder. When others fail to accept immediately his 'word of honor as a gentleman', his amazement, I believe, is often genuine. The term genuine is used here not to qualify the psychopath's intentions but to qualify his amazement. His subjective experience is so bleached of deep emotion that he is invincibly ignorant of what life means to others".

It might be helpful to see how others summarize Cleckley's theory. There are a few such accounts in "Unmasking the Psychopath" (1986) dedicated "To the memory of Hervey M. Cleckley, M.D., and to those he tried to help". On page 21 Hare writes

"[These studies were motivated by] Cleckley's speculation that psychopaths suffer from a deep-seated semantic disorder" ... "There is certainly something odd about the way psychopaths use language. For example, their behavior is often strikingly inconsistent with their verbalized thoughts, feelings, and tensions. I suspect that more than simple lying, deceit, and dissimulation are involved here; there may be something pathological about the structure and dynamics of the psychopath's language processes". and

"Cleckley long held that the speech of psychopaths appears to be a mechanically correct artifact that masks a semantic disorder in which the formal, semantic, and affective components of language are dissociated from one another. The nature of this putative disorder was not made clear, but we might surmise that it involves unusual or abnormal interactions among the cortical, subcortical, and limbic mechanisms responsible for the integration of verbal, emotional, and social behavior".

On page 98 Dorr and Woodhall write

"[Cleckley's] attempt to understand and explain psychopathy led him to postulate a 'semantic aphasia', a psychological deficit possibly having a neurological substratum. Semantic aphasia is an extensive and deep loss of understanding of meaningful language, a loss that may not at first be evident to the casual observer because the dysfunction may be disguised by intact superficial functions. Thus viewed, the psychopath is not exactly hypocritical but rather oblivious to the true meaning of language" ... "Although Cleckley revised "Mask of Sanity" several times, he did little to expand his hypothesis...". also on page 119:

"According to Cleckley, overt speech disorder is not technically demonstrable in the psychopath. The speech disorder is CONCEALED by an outer surface of intact function".

To sum up, first, Cleckley is modest about his understanding of the causes of psychopathy. What he does say is he believes there's a failure of integration of various aspects of the psychopath's personality, probably neurologically based. The peripheral, outer, apparent features of his personality, which we can understand as his mask and which are primarily represented in what he says (based on his use of language) and how he presents himself to others, is lacking the benefit of input from his emotional life.

I see an isomorphism between Cleckley's theory and that of others. For example 'persistent' "think[s] of psychopathy as a complete resistance to self-schema restructuring." If we consider the "self-schema" as one's self-image, the "mask" presented to others, we see a blocking of emotional and other input into the psychopath's image, or "self schema", of himself. kris's theory is that the P is cut off from his soul. Again, a cutting off of ourselves from our emotional input. Also, Alexander Lowen in his book "Narcissism". In the intro he says "Narcissists are more concerned with how they appear than what they feel. Indeed they deny feelings that contradict the image they seek. .... Narcissists lack a sense of self derived from body feelings.". Again, ignoring emotional input to their self-schema. If spiritually speaking, the body is a temple that houses our soul and we ignore our bodily feelings then we're cut off from our soul.

Now we are left with the question, if the psychopath's use of words is not informed by other aspects of his psyche such as his emotional life, then what can we say about his use of words, which following Cleckley we can term a kind of "semantic disorder". I find the speech of the psychopath to be often both maddening and exasperating. Some may think it's sufficient to understand "semantic disorder" as simply habitual, pathological lying and leave it at that.

It's a very difficult subject. I'd like to finish up by considering how psychopaths act when you ask them to explain what they've said. There's an attitude of "ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies". Then suppose you ask, "but don't you lie sometimes even when no one has asked you any questions?". The irony is they can lie in response, since you just asked them a question. I mean, it's easy to get away with a lie when no one asks you any questions. Communicating with words is problematic anyway, isn't it?

persistent, you wrote "On this forum, we can validate and restructure and empower ourselves in a positive manner through shared experience. Psychopaths don't have that luxury.". This relates to our posts back and forth. We write things down for the benefit of others. It's a joy when others read it and understand it and comment on it ... and ask questions about it. There is a meeting of the minds. There may be conflict, disagreement, pain, bitterness. An "I don't understand what you're saying". Maybe a "that was rude and insensitive. My personal experience completely denies what you've said". But even when we disagree, there's a modification of our self-schemas, a broadening here, a narrowing there.

Unlike us here, the psychopath hates to have his words taken down and later have people ask him about them. In response to being asked about what he's said in the past he will deny, then minimize, then attack, then play the victim, besides a dozen other tactics. He resents being questioned or challenged in any way. Here's one example from Mask of Sanity (1976) page 390:

"His father, from the patient's point of view, lacks humor and does not understand things. The old man could easily take a different attitude about having had to make good those last three little old checks written by the son. Nor was there any sense in raising so much hell because he took that dilapidated old Chevrolet for his trip to Memphis. What if he did forget to tell the old man he was going to take it? It wouldn't hurt him to go to the office on the bus for a few days. How was he (the patient) to know the fellows were going to clean him out at stud or that the little bitch of a waitress at the Frolic Spot would get so nasty about money? What else could he do except sell the antiquated buggy? If the old man weren't so parsimonious he'd want to get a new car anyway!".

Often the psychopath's use of language seems to be in the service of pure rationalization, that is of a lame, false reason after the fact with no other purpose than to put someone off. In his book Cleckley mentions rationalization twice, first on page 350:

"Usually, instead of facing facts that would ordinarily lead to insight, he projects, blaming his troubles on others with the flimsiest of pretext but with elaborate and subtle rationalization". And on page 374,

"Even his splendid logical faculties will, in real life situations, produce not actual reasoning but that imitation of reasoning known as rationalization, for in the synthesis by which reasoning contributes to sound judgment, the sense of value, that is, the value of truth and feeling, cannot be missing. When this is missing, the process is only rationalization, something which, however technically brilliant, does not satisfactorily guide and shape action. And no difference between the two is more fundamental".

Finally, I'd like to paste the dialog from a scene from one of my favorite TV dramas, "Hawaii 5-0". In this episode (with Slim Pickens), a family has travelled the US killing and stealing to support themselves (This was probably based on an actual case from the 1970s of a family doing just that). It's the end of the episode where they were caught and taken into Steve Mcgarrett's office. The dialog is between the psychopathic mom (PM) of the family and McGarrett (MG). It seems to me a wonderful example of "semantic disorder":

MG: You've been informed of your rights, so you know you don't have to answer any questions. But I'd like to ask one anyway, just for my own satisfaction, even though nobody answers it. Do you understand that you're being charged with murdering, over a hundred and fifty people? Does that have any affect on anyone?

PM: They wasnt kin.

MG: What?

PM: They wasnt kin! they was all strangers. It dont count with strangers

MG: Dont count with strangers ?

MG: What about the money that you're alleged to have stolen, over 40 thousand dollars from your victims

PM: Never stole a cent.

MG: Never stole a cent.

PM: They was dead; what do they want with money, when they was dead. It aint stealing, when they was dead first.

Sincerely, Boo

boo,

I find this discussion fascinating, and really want to respond, even though I feel I shouldn't because-> disclaimer: I don't know nothing about nothing. I only have my own observations and thoughts to rely upon, and the older I get, the less I know. But, I have to say, this notion of a semantic disorder is right on the money, in my opinion. Your Cleckley comments on how there is something "odd" about the way the p's use language is key, to my mind, even though he does not seem able to really analyse it other than to note that there is an inconsistency between their language and their behavior, feelings,and true thoughts. Hare goes on to postulate that this disconnect among 'the formal, semantic, and affective components of language' might be mirrored by a physiological disconnect 'among the cortical, subcortical, and limbic mechanisms' of the brain. I think these guys are very, very close to describing the core pathology of this disorder. And, I think a trained linguist could tease this out in a new york minute, making the actual pathological use of language by the p's totally obvious. For myself, it just gives me a headache whenever I try to think about it, like Alice falling through the doors and taking pills and getting bigger and smaller. Reality becomes so distorted and the working morality so insane ('I never stole a cent, --it ain't stealing if he was dead first'), that I can hardly bear to think about it.

I do want to say, however, that I am struck by how this fits in with the concept of a rigid personality schema. Like all personality disorders, the p is basically rigid in his approach to the world, and thus not particularly amenable to treatment-- that seems to be a given, please correct me if I am wrong. But, I've been thinking, the p himself, in his use of language to develop and maintain his mask, can be remarkably fluid. I have talked before about the situational expediency of the p's mask, and how glibly he can change from one mask to another, depending on the situation. Trying to pin down a p, or carry on the discussion of a problem from beginning to middle to end, is like trying to tie down Houdini. They seem to always squirm around the issue and escape...until one day they don't.

In thinking about this, it occurred to me that perhaps it is the use of language that is the problem, rather than language itself. In other words, we all use language for various functions, --to forge social bonds, to communicate our inner thoughts, to exchange ideas, to express pure emotion, to stroke each other, and so forth. And, here, I think, is where the p's rigid psychological structure might extend to language, creating the 'semantic insanity' that Cleckley observes. I think that for the p, language serves only one function, to protect himself. This function manifests itself as rationalization, lying, manipulation, charm, domination, etc but all the myriad forms of it add up to only one purpose: to place a solid wall between the p and other people, i.e. the mask. This is one reason why I think p's can be created as well as born, although I suspect the cognitive use of language for the created p is formed at a very young age. Could one also postulate that in a created p, certain connections of the brain might atrophy or never develop because they are not used? Hence the disconnect between limbic and frontal lobe is made, not born, by the interaction of a particular brain structure with a particular environment? Heck, why not? I'm sure you remember the gondola experiments, where kittens are not allowed to walk but are moved about in a gondola, and thus never develop proper spatial vision. Well, I think I have that experiment right, anyways, but it was along those lines of use it or lose it.

The p's defensive posture in all things is belied by the approach of 'the best defense is a good offense'; he wants to get you before you get him. In this sense, even the most seemingly benign interactions with the p always contain a hidden meaning of aggression that serves the p in his defensive posture against the world. Could we conclude that this contains elements of a type of aggressive, but masked, paranoia, based on an early formed and rigid world view that the world is a hostile and dangerous place?

To summarize, I am postulating that the p's rigid personality structure bleeds over into his use of language in an equivalently rigid manner, that use being to protect himself. The rigid use of language is itself masked by an apparent fluidity of changing forms which all have only one basic function, to create the self protection of the mask. The changing forms, themselves, serve to confuse and dazzle the listener in the same way a fencer's footwork keeps his opponent off balance, and to the p, it seems that all others, even family members and 'loved' ones, are just that, opponents. Could it be that Cleckley himself was taken in by this? How many of us, when talking to someone, can perceive that we are really in a complicated, well constructed, and hidden battle for control and domination? In short, there is only one reason for language as far as the p is concerned, in my opinion. It is used as an unbending, versatile, aggressive, and powerful weapon of self protection. Unfortunately, it appears that the p is not only cut off from others by this construct, but from himself, as well.

(just my thoughts and opinion)

Thanks to you and persistent for bringing up this very interesting discussion.

Molly

Boo, While this was written to persistent, I just want to make a few short observations:

"Let us remember that his typical behavior defeats what appear to be his own aims. Is it not he himself who is most deeply deceived by his apparent normality? Although he deliberately cheats others and is quite conscious of his lies, he appears unable to distinguish adequately between his own pseudointentions, pseudoremorse, pseudolove, and the genuine responses of a normal person. His monumental lack of insight indicates how little he appreciates the nature of his disorder. When others fail to accept immediately his 'word of honor as a gentleman', his amazement, I believe, is often genuine. The term genuine is used here not to qualify the psychopath's intentions but to qualify his amazement. His subjective experience is so bleached of deep emotion that he is invincibly ignorant of what life means to others".


The last sentence, especially, strikes so many chords in me, the result is a symphony. This apparent dichotomy in the psychopath, wherein he occupies two opposing realities at once, he both believes in his self-justification absolutely, while knowing absolutely that he is lying to, tricking and cheating his victim...The irrationality of this is a sticking place for us, his victims. If we stay long enough, and try hard enough, and delve deep enough, we eventually come to be aware of this thing which makes no rational sense. We come to a place where our long sought answer is, "Yes and no, ar the same time He both does and doesn't know he is lying." It's even more complicated than that. It's, "He knows he is lying, and he is livid that anyone should question his superiority, which, in his mind, imparts to him the right to lie, or do whatever he wishes, and receive nothing but honor and adulation, for it." He is a universe unto himself, in which his ultimate superiority is the well from which all subordinate reality flows. We who are not like that have a hard time wrapping ourselves around the contradiction.

"...you're being charged with murdering, over a hundred and fifty people? Does that have any affect on anyone?

PM: They wasnt kin.

MG: What?

PM: They wasnt kin! they was all strangers. It dont count with strangers

MG: Dont count with strangers ?

MG: What about the money that you're alleged to have stolen, over 40 thousand dollars from your victims

PM: Never stole a cent.

MG: Never stole a cent.

PM: They was dead; what do they want with money, when they was dead. It aint stealing, when they was dead first."

Wow. The content, being about murder, is different, but the dynamic in place in this conversation, is painfully familiar. The psychopath's logic supports his self-perceived righteousness, always. He has never done anything wrong. The wrong is in others' inability to see things the way he does.

We have strayed from the orginal topic, here, and some of this thread will probably be moved.

kris

Hi Boo,

many thanks for taking the time to make that post. you have given all of us lots of food for thought i think. i had forgotten about that part of cleckley's work, and you present things very well and your own comments add a lot of clarity, putting things in a "fresher" light. the difference between rationalization and reasoning is a true gem. i don't think any other aspect of psychopathy is more fascinating or seductive. even though it is used against us once we begin to see cracks in the construction and begin to question the psychopath about them, it is the same mechanism that plunged the hooks into us in the first few encounters. it is the technique that makes us perceive them as exceptional people in the midst of a judgmental, ignorant world. it spins the illusion (however, selfish people seem immune to it, which is why Ps do not target them). i think, often secretly, that many of us might even sometimes exhibit some kind of warped envy regarding this particular attribute of the psychopath, the twisted brilliance that this ability to recast the truth reflects, the bizarre talent to make oneself look like the innocent, the wronged, the victim, the only one with any sensibility or morality in a situation that clearly shows their shortcomings in the areas of reason and "goodness." yet their internally flawless monologues do not hold up against reality. we ask HOW HOW HOW and WHY WHY WHY do they do it??? and it drives us, simply..... nuts! i was just reading some material from Dr. Sam Vaknin's website that seems to provide some more insight. he is a narcissist who full admits to having the disorder. here is a passage that really struck me:

EMULATION

"The Narcissist is possessed of an uncanny ability to psychologically penetrate others. Often, this gift is abused and put at the service of the narcissist's control freakery and sadism. The Narcissist uses it liberally to annihilate the natural defences of his victims by faking unprecedented, almost inhuman, empathy. This capacity is coupled with the Narcissist's ability to frighteningly imitate emotions and their attendant behaviours. The Narcissist possesses "resonance tables". He keeps records of every action and reaction, every utterance and consequence, every datum provided by others regarding their state of mind and emotional make-up. From these, he then constructs a set of formulas which often result in impeccably and eerily accurate renditions of emotional behaviour. This is enormously deceiving. The Narcissist is our first encounter with carbon-based artificial intelligence. Many wish it were the last."

Note the idea of "resonance tables" and second-last line about "carbon-based artificial intelligence." The psychopath, the undisputable high end point of the narcissistic continuum, is definitely a machine in this regard. let me propose a mathematical analogy. in solving very large systems of equations which can have more than one possible solution, mathematicians and statisticians use computer algorithms which search through a number of solution sets until the "best" one is found. now, the psychopath always wishes to portray reality in a manner that serves and protects the inflexible self-schema. so, when challenged, the P constructs the best possible response or "solution set", based on information he/she has stored in memory about the interlocutor/victim, that supports the untouchable self. i think this strategy derives from the same source as their mimicking ability and their talent for making us feel soul-mated. they store up everything about us, process it, and use it to their advantage when the time comes, they always find the right self-serving buttons. how exactly their brain manages to do that so efficiently and quickly is the real mystery. hare and cleckley were right... but this aspect of Ps is in dire need of further elucidation.

persistent

""everything's made to be broken"

This could be the psychopath's mantra. Everything's made to be broken. From mere stuff to hearts and souls. From some of my recent reading, which delves into the mindset of psychopaths, and allows the reader to view their world from their perspective, I think they view the world this way, and actually see it as a lofty principle. "


Good one Kris. Another angle that I had missed. There are so many layers to what they say. So many different ways of "taking" what they say.

Examples that he said,

"A", (my daughter, 11 at the time). needs a man in her life.

You don't have a man in your life right now, so you can have me. ( said to me in a high pitched, childs voice)

We are going to have an adventure. ( Talking about starting the business, I thought at the time )

At last we're alone, there is no one to bother us. ( At the time I thought he meant all the problems with the staff and owner of the store we had left, later to find out he had caused it all, to get me out of there )

We have to do everything we can to keep "L" happy. ( Said about me, to my daughter, I thought at the time. Later to find out from my daughter how odd she thought it at the time, because he was looking straight at the TV when he said it.)

During the stalking after, raging into my friends place of business, claiming her family had a book of his. demanding her phone number, from another staff member, he was told he could not have it. Screaming "I want my book back." ( I am known around town as "L" the book lady.) He got thrown out.

While sitting playing chess with my daughter, he said "I'm going to win." My daughter thought it was really odd at the time because he said to the end table.I'm sitting back meanwhile, letting him play with my daughter all night, thinking isn't that nice.



And on and on and on. Insanity at its finest.

Betrayed

Hi molly, kris, and persistent,

Thanks so much for your responses. It's difficult enough to read through all the posts here, especially such a monstrous (i.e. large) one as my last. Which has to set some kind of record in that regard. Then to work to understand it. And to then make the effort to respond. I'm grateful. I don't have much to add to your posts except a kind of "yes I agree" and to restate in different words what you've said.

Molly, just a thought on your comment "I am struck by how this fits in with the concept of a rigid personality schema". Yes. The rigidity is on the level of the P's mind. On the other hand, his body is generally relaxed. He is smooth, charming, in control, nothing fazes him. It's hard to think of the P as rigid when he is so relaxed and glib and unfazed. Yes I know making a distinction between "mind" and "body" is fraught with problems and seen by many as artificial and unreal and just "too pat". But it works for me, mostly because of my own experience.

My personal experience, and I believe this applies to many other people, even if it's on a lesser scale for them, is that certain blocks in my body (tight neck and shoulders, back, chest, stomach, pelvis) sometimes serve as a kind of psychological defense mechanism against something, I'm not sure what, exactly. Metaphorically speaking, it seems to act as a way to shut off my heart to things around me, to block things from being taken into my unconscious. Perhaps the rigidity gives me if not a source of strength, at least a kind of feeling of identity. I've thought if I ever got a total body massage all my defenses would be "rolfed" out and I'd end up albeit temporarily a defenseless kind of jellyfish with all the sensations of the world rushing in and affecting me without me being able to have any say about it. These blocks in my body may serve to prevent me from being affected by others and cuts down on my experience of feeling. This is though, quite obviously, somewhat neurotic on my part.

In the same way, perhaps the mind of the psychopath functions as a kind of hedge against others, putting others off, as you say, "to place a solid wall between the p and other people". Just as I tense up (in a very misguided way) so any bad feelings coming my way from others will just "bounce off me", a P will hold in their mind some really ridiculous lie so that he won't have to consider what others think. He won't be able to take in what someone else says and integrate it with his "self schema" as 'persistent' says, because he completely favors what he's thinking (as stupid as it might be) over what someone else might say. In a 1981 article, Paul Chodoff wrote that the hysterical personality has "forgotten how to think", which I think also applies to the psychopath. The P's thoughts, or at least what he says, which is as close as we can come to know his thoughts, don't seem to help him much at all, but rather are designed to "get one over" on other people. As you say, for the P, language is simply a weapon against others to protect himself. It seems to act as a mechanism to keep his mind closed to even the most sensible things others might say. Even closed to what is obviously true.

Much of what the P says is indefensible and logically unsustainable. When caught, often he doesn't even try to defend it, he just slips off into something else. I think what Chodoff once said about the hysterical personality applies to the psychopath as well: "a combination of chameleon and onion where the uncovering of each layer serves only to reveal another layer with a different emotional colouration in compliance with the perceived requirements of the interpersonal environment". The layers of the onion which are the masks of the P are his statements of paper thin substance which when successfully challenged are discarded like the layers of an onion only to reveal another layer with no more truth, substance, or explanatory power than the original layer you may have worked so hard to try to remove in the first place.

kris, your comment "Yes and no, at the same time He both does and doesn't know he is lying.", this summarizes my confusion about the P which is still unresolved, which can be stated in several different ways. Does he know what's true? Does he even understand there is truth? Is the P unwilling to imagine the ramifications of what he does, or is he unable to, or does he see the consequences and just doesn't care? I don't mean to get answers for these questions; they're meant to be rhetorical. You know, sometimes, even after years of studying the psychopath, I feel like I'm all the way back to square one in trying to understand him. I think you answered them as well as possible in saying he thinks he's a superior being.

persistent, your analogy to solving large systems of equations makes my head spin. The Ps calculations do seem like a strictly mechanical process, but on the other hand, he's so smooth, comfortable and relaxed, not at all machine-like. Like the con man who feigns the appearance of love (or maybe it's real?!) for his new wife but has all the insurance policies lined up just so for when he kills her and makes it look like an accident.

Your comment:

"the psychopath always wishes to portray reality in a manner that serves and protects the inflexible self-schema. so, when challenged, the P constructs the best possible response or "solution set", based on information he/she has stored in memory about the interlocutor/victim, that supports the untouchable self. i think this strategy derives from the same source as their mimicking ability and their talent for making us feel soul-mated. "

This is very insightful! I think another way to say this is the P's soul has been hijacked in service of his arrogant, superior self-image (self-schema). His soul can still love and dream, and deal well with matters of the heart, but tomorrow his self-image may have completely different requirements, with new loves and new dreams, and those of yesterday will be "old news". Some of the good qualities of his soul will persist, like an apparent love and concern, but since it's a slave to his arrogant self, it has no input into any long term matters of conscience or fairness towards others which a healthy soul would normally concern itself with.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

Sincerely, Boo

Persistent,

"The Narcissist is possessed of an uncanny ability to psychologically penetrate others. Often, this gift is abused and put at the service of the narcissist's control freakery and sadism. The Narcissist uses it liberally to annihilate the natural defences of his victims by faking unprecedented, almost inhuman, empathy."

This helps to illustrate why the children of the personality disordered are so especially vulnerable to the psychopath. While there are a variety of personality disorders, all of them rest upon a core malignancy of narcisissism. The narcissist simply cannot see others. He/she sees only self.

I believe my mother was a BPD. The great heartbreak of my growing up years was having all of the good and love pouring out of my heart interpreted by my mother as bad and naughtiness. According to her, I was a bratty, rotten, worthless child. While my teachers were so worried about my perfect behavior that one addressed it in front of me at a school night..."She sits perfectly still, at perfect attention at all times...I'm worried about her." My mother's response was, "Oh ho ho, she's not like that at home!" In fact, I was. I attended my mother, barely breathing, jumping at her shouts and commands, literally running to serve her, terrified, as she screamed and slapped, and heaped verbal abuse on my head, defining me as something I was not.

I had such love in my heart. I often didn't play at recess. I took poor students under my wing, and stayed inside to tutor them. Or I cleaned blackboards for the teachers I loved. Longing for some little piece of the love in my heart to be recognized, my core humanity, which, to my mother, was invisible. This hurt me more than anything. My impulse was to make my mother happy, to spark some little twinge of joy in her soul. But if I worked all day on a Mother's Day care for her, she would sneer, "You erased until there was a hole in it, then tried to fix it with tape. It's ugly. I don't want this thing. Throw it away. And never give me anything like that, again."

Then along comes a psychopath. Take a child, now a woman or a man, any adult whose soul went consistently unrecognized, in childhood, and put that person with a psychopath. He "sees" her heart in such depth and brilliance. The heart that has gone unrecognized all her life.

She doesn't know she has just encountered the serpent in Paradise. There are universal themes, patterns that emerge, in the human journey. Some of those patterns are evidenced here. There are both psychological and spiritual reasons why children of the personality disordered are especially vulnerable to psychopaths. The silver lining in the cloud is that one of those reasons has to do with the development of the spiritual capacity of discernment. It is no easy thing, learning to discern between good and evil. You have to walk through the flames of Hell, learning, through trial and error, and deepening awareness, which markers lead the way out, and which lead deeper in.

kris

hi molly,

i will disregard your statement:

"disclaimer: I don't know nothing about nothing. I only have my own observations and thoughts to rely upon, and the older I get, the less I know."

your post is very insightful into the motivations of the psychopath. here:

"I think that for the p, language serves only one function, to protect himself. This function manifests itself as rationalization, lying, manipulation, charm, domination, etc but all the myriad forms of it add up to only one purpose: to place a solid wall between the p and other people, i.e. the mask."

i agree completely that is it possible to reduce all elements of "the pattern" to a single factor: self-protection. one might also say that self-enhancement is a factor as well, but in truth, i think that self-enhancement and self-protection for the P are, simply, one and the same construct. if we think of the pattern in this way, then it follows that the mental and emotional turmoil we experience at the hands of psychopaths are simply "by-products" of their self-protection mechanisms. that explanation works for me, anyway. actually it is the only one that makes any real sense to me. the questions that remain for me are: What exactly is the P protecting? Do they have some true inner self that is so far buried in the muck and mire of the deception that it can never be extracted? Would exposing it to the world feel like death to them? Do they hate this true inner self? Do they secretly yearn for someone to accept it? Is that why they sweep us up in the first few months? Are they looking for someone who might "break the spell" and free their inner self from the chains of the false one? Is the projected self, the mask the P constructs, simply a protector? Are their jumps from person to person just a fruitless search for the inner self's release? Do they frantically hope that the next "target" will allow them to be themselves? Is our struggle in the later phases of the P relationship really a battle with the P's false self to get to the true one? Are we perpetually defeated because the false self is too strong, even though the true inner self is secretly rallying in our corner, shouting "please, please let me out, fight bravely, you can do it, hit harder, don't listen to the lies, destroy my captor, take the key, unlock the cell." I know I am being dramatic here, but these are thoughts which I couldn't get out of my head..... until now. kris has said that no human love can affect the P. i agree, and i will try to add to this by saying "no human love could ever extract the P's true self from the clutches of the false self."

you also said:

"The p's defensive posture in all things is belied by the approach of 'the best defense is a good offense'; he wants to get you before you get him. In this sense, even the most seemingly benign interactions with the p always contain a hidden meaning of aggression that serves the p in his defensive posture against the world."

bravo once again! when i think back on things, the P's i knew had my brain jumping through hoops right from the beginning. even when the relationship was enjoyable in the early phases, there was at the same time this very strange feeling of anxiety and lurking menace and challenge. they always want to talk about you, find out as much as they can (and oh we so willingly let it flow out of us), and at the same time keep you from asking questions about them, from focusing the conversation on them (unless what you are saying directly concerns and supports their false self).... questions to questions and answers to answers, dodge, parry, thrust, victory. the dance continues throughout the whole relationship, it just changes tone.

persistent

kris:

"I had such love in my heart. I often didn't play at recess. I took poor students under my wing, and stayed inside to tutor them. Or I cleaned blackboards for the teachers I loved. Longing for some little piece of the love in my heart to be recognized, my core humanity, which, to my mother, was invisible. This hurt me more than anything. My impulse was to make my mother happy, to spark some little twinge of joy in her soul. But if I worked all day on a Mother's Day care for her, she would sneer, "You erased until there was a hole in it, then tried to fix it with tape. It's ugly. I don't want this thing. Throw it away. And never give me anything like that, again."
Then along comes a psychopath. Take a child, now a woman or a man, any adult whose soul went consistently unrecognized, in childhood, and put that person with a psychopath. He "sees" her heart in such depth and brilliance. The heart that has gone unrecognized all her life."

i just wanted to say that we are all glad that this forum is here, and more specifically that YOU are here. you are recognized every time one of your postings helps us move toward our ultimate goal: complete internalization of the fact that our experiences with psychopaths were totally beyond our control.
persistent

Bless you, bless you, persistent. And bless everyone here who has given me my life's greatest wish and treasure, to be recognized.

kris

Hi Persistent.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that post. Because the P that targeted me, was so fragmented into parts, each with different names, each part giving me a separate view on their reality, it made it so clear to me that this is what was happening. They were all like caracatures of real people. One body, at least 15 people sharing it, all with different motivations, but all led by the one who was going to get me before I got him. You put it all so succinct, in words I could not come up with.

Once a guy came into the store he owed money to. I asked him , after the guy left, what was his secret, to get the guy to leave without being paid and with a smile on his face. He said, another part of my brain takes over. I didn't know what the hell he was talking about then. I do now.

I knew one of the parts fell in love with me, you could feel that energy. Other people noticed it. His sexual energy was a total separate entity. I started reading about chakras. In a "normal" person, all of these energies work in sync. In him you could feel that they were totally blocked off and separated.

When we have sexually feelings, there is a powerful energy that passes between two people.

When we are in love this sexual energy combines with the heart energy, to make a powerful connection.

With him, it was totally separated, the energy I felt from him, never both together.

If someone can explain this better than me about chakras, please do. You guys have a much better way of putting things, than I do.

I always wondered about women that marry men that con them out of money, etc. Couldn't they tell that they were being conned and the guy wasn't in love with them.

No one ever talks about that energy.

I found the conversation quite interesting for I believe I have understood the pathology of my P through language. He is a writer. What was striking me so much in each conversation was his lucidity but with time as I thought he was opening up Lapsus Lingue would occur more and more frequently. Lapsus Lingue in this case were snaps, sign of folly or moments that testified brakes from its world or the world that he and I shared. Although he is such an intelligent man, I doubt he knows about his pathology: it was so evident at the end how he initiated a conversation with me. He would always start within the first 15 minutes by inserting some comments that I have made recently. For examples, I once said that I dislike and distrusted one of his colleague. In each of our conservation, he would bring it back as if it was his comment: “ oh yes, I don’t like that guy.”. So in this case, I would probably speculate on a dual mechanism of semantics, one that strive to depict an individuality ( interior to exterior) and one that strive to internalize exterior motives( exterior to interior) both together regulate the coveted personae. I always stunned that he would behave that way without thinking that I could be doubting his credibility. It was then unconceivable for me that a man of that age would use such strategy. It sounded like a kid. They use an incredible amount of what I call fillers. Their minds carry an amazingly library of fillers to please. Pick up lines, hook lines, flattering line and on. They are inserted as required within the flow produced by the dual mechanism of the personae semantic. Incongruence and disjunction within speech is something to be beware of.

i am rereading all this
i seem to understand a bit more
how is mind work
it is so very true all the description of p
it fits my x-p like a glove
the truth shall set me free
i need to keep my eyes on the fact

freedom

"kris, your comment "Yes and no, at the same time He both does and doesn't know he is lying.", this summarizes my confusion about the P which is still unresolved, which can be stated in several different ways. Does he know what's true? Does he even understand there is truth?"

he lies so much
that i felt that he did not even know he was lying
and i would tell him that
but it did not help either
for him to know

freedom

head..... until now. kris has said that no human love can affect the P. i agree, and i will try to add to this by saying "no human love could ever extract the P's true self from the clutches of the false self."

i need to keep on reading this
to fill me with more truth
he is calling me now with more bulls***
all these twisted accusation
please god almighty help me

freedom

I am new to this and can't stop reading all the posts!! I feel so connected to so many of you. I have to stop reading, I feel sick!! Why do we have to go through this insanity???!!! The only thing that makes me feel better is knowing that God knows everything we are going through and if we have faith in him He will help us get through it. Everyone of you are so wise and I believe that I am too. We have to take our experiences and do something about it!! Help others, find a solution!! There has to be a solution. Police, judges, and lawyers need more awareness. I am so serious! You all know how frustrating it is to deal with a P and the law!! They make us look the the crazy one and get away with it. I think if there was more awareness then there would be more intolerance of them by law enforcement. Does anyone know if anything is being done to bring more awareness? There should be more testing done by the law and if they test possitive there should be a red flag by their name in the system (A big P next to their social security number). Then the law would know what they are up against!! And be more sympathetic to us. I just can't take it anymore, I feel like I have been confined to a life in hell. When I first came on this site I hadn't had any contact with my ex in a couple of months, I thought it was over...the day after my first post, I got a call from him and it is starting all over again. I am his target and I always will be until I get some help from the law. He gets away with rape, abuse, lying, everything. Until the law gets more awareness, he will get away with everything. It is sickening!!!!! I feel like I am fighting a losing battle (all by myself). The sad part is that my children are the ones getting the worst form of his munipulation. God help us all.

Mindy

Mindy

I hope things get better and better for you. I feel the same as you about making the system aware of the dangers which are real and not something to be swept aside as 'domestic' etc. A so called child psychiatrist once berated me for trying to stop the P having contact, so what if he has a personality disorder that won't prevent access. She had no idea what I was talking about when I said no conscience, no boundaries, no normal realtionships only control and manipulation of anyone he could practice his mind games on. The system does not allow for this - I am currently trying to fight the system but except for a very very sore head from hitting all the brickwalls I have nothing to show for it. What is worse - as you know - the professionals won't admit to mistakes -a fact that the P will take advantage of every time. A living hell because when you have their child it is so difficult to escape to a sane world. But I hope to have the strength to continue fighting (the system - I can't win against my ex as he is a convicing pathological liar who can change stories in an instant and have the intelligence to make it sound true. But you know this from your hell your P put you thru - if I know there are more of us trying to do the same then it will really boost my attempts.

Good luck

Mindy

>>I am his target and I always will be until I get some help from the law. He gets away with rape, abuse, lying, everything.<<

I didn't know until recently, raping your wife is against the law. P#1 did that alot. Once in front of my kids (the beginning anyway)I just gave in because I wanted privacy so they wouldn't witness it. I didn't know then what he did was illegal. I only knew it was disgusting and immoral to be so crazed to not even care if children were witnessing it.
There is help available. You can get a protective order. Is DVIS in your area.
Sending prayers your way Mindy.
finished

Finished,

He sounds exactly like my ex, he doesn't care what the kids see, He used to fondle me in front of them and has tried to have sex with me while they were sleeping in our bed. My kids tell me that he puts his hands in his girlfriends pants all the time and it makes them feel "gross". Recently, though, he has been raping me in my bedroom with the kids just in the other room I couldn't fight him back physically and scare my kids. I would quietly fight him (I hate having sex with him, I hate him!) I would cry and he wouldn't see it and act like we just had the best time. He was (and still is) engaged to be married and he has discredited me by convincing her thay I am pshyco and to stay away from me because I go into jealous rages with all of his girlfriends. He tells her these things right infront of me. His relationship with her is a masquerade in his game with me, only I am not playing it. I feel so sorry for her. He told me the grossest thing a couple of months ago while raping me, he said he was going to go home and have his girlfriend suck my c__ off of him!!!!! I hate him!! He is sick and disturbing and manages to portray himself as a GREAT guy!! And convince everyone in his life that I am psycho. He uses the childsupport to get his way, he withholds it from me and when I am so desperate uses it to exercise his control. I am currently doing everything in my power to provide for my children without the childsupport. I did get my 4th restraining order a couple of months ago and found out a couple of weeks ago that it was never served. The sheriff's department said that he made himself "completely unavailable". So now I have to pay someone to serve it and I just don't have the extra money right now. I have tried to turned him for rape and had the whole rape kit done and it proved that we had sex but as for rape it was "my word against his" I have talked with so many law officials about it and they said that rape between married or divorced couples is the hardest thing to prove and is not worth the energy and pain spent trying to prove it. The other thing is that his "fiance" is so convinced that I am a psycho that she is pushing him to take me back to court to get custody of our children. I really believe that he does act somewhat normal with her because he is putting on a show! Then has me in his little fantasy world behaving like a P. I am hoping that he does take me back to court because I have been smart. I have tape recorded and documenting everything. He is going to be so exposed!!!! I can't wait!!!!!

Thanks so much,
Mindy

Oh Mindy!

What a nightmare! It is so out of our way of thinking to imagine that anyone could even THINK of doing such incomprenhensible acts. And the things they say. . .inhuman some of them (as his remark about his girlfriend after he was with you). Vile, pernicious and disgusting.

P#1 was also a "good guy" to everyone but his family. When I called the law on him, he knew everyone in town. They would yuk it up and they would put him in the squad car laughing and joking all the way. Then he would be back worse than ever. I learned not to make waves. It put me and the kids in such terror. How we survived it was only by the grace of God. It sounds like you also have great faith. Your spiritual base will sustain you Mindy. It has me.
(((Mindy)))
finished

Kris,

I do relate to yr pt of view. The intensity that you experienced is not equalled in everyday life. For instance grief can be intense suffering, but grief is not dangerous.
My experience as a victim of psychopaths (2) was one of extreme danger - alone - continously - for 20 years.

Since psychopaths are masters of fixing the blame on the victim and convincing others that the victim is the root of their troubles, then the victim becomes isolated, a solitary prisoner, a hostage in my case, in the insanity and chaos.

Everyday people are not your equal. They can never, ever imagine your interiority and therefore cannot imagine your extraordinariness, our extraordinariness.

In my case however, there is so much on the ordinary plane that I have to learn anew like a baby, that in a way, this becomes a kind of equalizer. I am trying to 'catch up' in the ordinary world, if that makes sense - yet I know my secret -that what I know cannot be fully conveyed, except on such a forum as this.

Grace,
Welcome to the forum. Your thread was very well put and heartfelt. I am located in your area. I know of no support
groups that specifically address the victims of psychopaths/
narcissists. However, this is a wonderful place to receive
support, advice and encouragement. And, if you want to get
in touch with me privately...perhaps Dianne can arrange that
as the private messages are disabelled. You are right
"ordinary people" cannot relate to the pain, the emptiness,
the sense of loss.
Rick

Welcome to the forum, Grace.

>>a hostage in my case, in the insanity and chaos.,,

I was a hostage for way to long. It felt absolutely terrible. No matter what I tried to do I was in pain. To leave or to stay, didn't matter, that P. had me right where he wanted me for so long. And I fed right in to all of it. I tired to fight the P, not knowing what I was up against. Knowledge has made me freer than I have been in along time. I still struggle daily to let go of it all. I still miss the P's ideal world he made up for me. I'm no longer in denial, well for the most part.

>>I am trying to 'catch up' in the ordinary world, if that makes sense - yet I know my secret -that what I know cannot be fully conveyed, except on such a forum as this.<<

Makes perfect since to me. Since leaving my job (the territory of the P), everybody associated with our kinda work is asking why did I leave. The P and I were business partners/"best friends". To share the real truth to these people would only put me in harms way (emotionally). It is a small world and the P. can not ever here through others what I believe, as it would stir him up, make his resort to evilness again. I have told him what I believe, except I have never used the P. word with him. It is my secret and you are so right it can only be shared here.

So glad you found the forum, grace!

betterway

WoW! Reading everyone's stories
make me feel so at home

when my husband and i were helping p to get back on his feet
after a few weeks, where, he was the nicest person in the world, the agency that was providing care-worker to help me with my handicap children, hired him
i ask the agency to hire him
he was so helpful

he is a great cook and very clean and a great entertainer
so my handicap children where getting the best with him
but it only lasted a few weeks
he became very jealous of me even though we were not lovers
he had a way with women that they all slept with him
which did not bother me i was only in his life to help him out
but it turned out to be a nightmare
he became violent at my house i got the gun to defend myself just hitting him with it
i could not shoot and did not know how to use it either
so he got scare of me and called the police on me
telling them that i pointed the gun at him
and telling them that he was a stud bla bla bla
so he just wrote a complaint
but he had one year to change his mind and press charge on me

he would say too that i was crazy and he would have me put in a place for oversex person when he is the one who was demanding it ferociously
or he would have me deported
and i kept putting up with him even after he was out of our house
for some wild reason
i fell in love with him
i was going to save him of the way he was thinking
i was going to help him to be a better person
praying to God for a miracle
why was he nice for a little while
i was trying to bring him back to be that nice guy

i wish i would not have to share all this
i do not like to write all my past life
it takes a lot of energy for me to write what happened
but reading you'all makes me want to say yes i know what you talking about it happened to me the same stuff
you all sharing

i found out last night that p's new girlfriend is his high school teacher
when he was in high school she fell for him and was writing him love letters
the lady who was telling me this read those letters a long time ago
and was telling me to be very careful because she is crazy too
she was saying that they deserve each other but i was afraid of her too when she was calling me and leaving ugly messages on my phone and p was telling her lies about me to make her feel sorry for him that i provided his drug which he never did in front of me I've never even seen it
that is one thing that he would not share with me and i was ignorant about it for a long time because of my naive way of being
and i gave him herpes which is a lie
i did went to get tested but the doctor would not do it unless i had symptom of it and never had
i heard other musicians that i need to stay away from her do not pick up her phone calls
she hadn't called since he came out of rehab 2 weeks ago

i did see him monday night playing at the jam session, i could not see his new girlfriend there were people in front of her and all i could do is laugh at the situation,
sure i am hurt but it is ok to hurt but i won't let it take over my emotion it's hard but i am fighting for peace of mind
he was playing and he told the bass player that he could have me
so the bass guy was joking with me that now we can be together because before when they would come and talk to me
p would always be so jealous
to the point of hitting me a few time in public

i am friendly to everyone but i do not f*** them
i am from another country and i just love to meet new people and it would aggravate the hell out of him
that everyone like me so much
and he would present me to everyone and he would say that i was stealing his connection
that i wanted for his fame so i would leave him alone for awhile to prove to him look i don't need you
i knew a lot of musicians before i knew p and he would get in shock when they would come and talk to me
he would ask me who do i work for

he got arrested many time
and the police would say hey! blues man how you doing!
asking him for an autograph
the grew up with him
so to them he is just a spoil brat guy
who gets away a lot from the law
but the beat up his mom and girlfriends
and stalking and calling her dad to tell him that he was going to kill him if he doesn't tell him where she is
now he's got that charge and it is getting a bit more serious he could spend time for this

so anyway i am getting out of the woods
and learning slowly about how people can be
and learning how to defend myself
against people that are p

i feel that i am spending too much time talking about him
i have so much to do work work
but for some reason i have to get this out of my system
i want to be able to protect people from those kind of men


freedom

>>I was a hostage for way to long. It felt absolutely terrible. No matter what I tried to do I was in pain. To leave or to stay, didn't matter, that P. had me right where he wanted me for so long. And I fed right in to all of it. I tired to fight the P, not knowing what I was up against.<<

So well put. . .exactly how I felt for over five years! I did not know what had hit me. . .

finished

Welcome Mindy and Grace! That is been a great place to be.

Hopefull,

Thanks so much!! I had another disturbing twisted episode today with P and almost pushed me over the edge. But as he was projecting to me I was able to identify it and knew that I could come here and unload to people who understand me. The isolation has been hard for me, since my family is very disinterested or maybe they just can't handle it. I did notice my response to him was a lot better and the end result was good. For everyone who has been so kind to me, thank you!!!! Finally validation!!!

Mindy

Mindy, Hang in there, better time will come. It is always somehow a surprise to see that family are uninterested. They are only because they can't gauge the effect of a P on us. They have no clue. that's why. The same here. And if they come to understand and they don't understand why we haven't move on and how come we are still dealing with that. Hang in there. I guess we are substitute for a family for those bad moments.

Rick b1, (rick b)


I would be glad to say hello in person at a Starbuck's, Tully's or equivalent. Since the Private Message system is disabled I will provide Dianne with a private means of communication.

G

Thanks All for yr welcome.

Persistent, I just read your "Understanding Crystallized: The Aftermath" and I totally, totally related to it. You are so right on. Thank you. I keep finding little jewels of posts that help me in my journey back to normalcy.

Hi I am new on the site but found what you wrote very powerful and scary in a way. What the hell is wrong with us woman ??? Posted a thread called confused. Thought i would just comment on your writing. xx