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#1558 - 11/24/04 02:48 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Mati]
recovery Offline
member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 204
Hi Matai

I really feel for you as it must be agonising to have your sons believe the P's fantasy view. But they surely will come to the truth in time - then they will need you more than ever, no matter how old they are. I hope you can keep strong until then.

My divorce papers were the best papers I have ever been given - I should have them framed!!

I am really busy at work - usual preXmas deadlines.
Other wise fine. Though I did go back to the woman who lied for my ex to see if she would tell the truth now, but she put the phone down. I hope she does not tell the P as it might start him up. I really hoped that since she had found out some of the truth that her conscience would kick in, but no chance!!

Anyway we'll see waht happens.

Happy thanksgiving to all but especially in the USA


Recovery

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#1560 - 11/26/04 01:58 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hi Km,





"As a victim of a woman, I celebrate with unrestrained glee my ability to degrade women, to humiliate them, to frustrate them, to make them beg for life itself, for they see their (often imagined) relationship with me as life itself. This is why I abstain from sex. This is why I dazzle them with my intellect and charm and wit and knowledge, with unprecedented intrusive interest in their petty, boring, housewivish lives - and then I let go abruptly. At this stage, they are so brittle, so vulnerable that they crash to a million shreds with the crystalline sound of agony."



What a nasty mouthful! Do you have the site from where you got this. I'd be interested in seeing it and reading what else Sam Vakin has to say about this.



Glad to see you are back,



Nan


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#1563 - 11/26/04 11:39 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Amazing. "(A)ll my women refused to have sex with me after a year or two," and yet in the previous post he claims, "This is why I abstain from sex." Which is it? *His women*(!) refusing to sleep with the poor little monster or his maintaining control by refusing to sleep with them? Either way, thank God no one wants to breed with him.

"I NEVER met ANYONE, including real psychos and the retarded, who was actively avoided by women where procreation is concerned." Uh, that's a HUGE generalization.

Pathetic and yet frightening at the same time.

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#1565 - 11/26/04 01:39 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:
"I NEVER met ANYONE, including real psychos and the retarded, who was actively avoided by women where procreation is concerned."
...ROFL



More interesting comments from Mr Brown.

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#1566 - 11/26/04 02:21 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
American Description
Diagnostic Criteria

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

"Now back to business. Jimmie's point about the mislabeling raises an interesting point. There are some similiarties for sure between NPD and anti-social. They are indeed psychological cousins. However, there are some noticeable differences. NPDers do have a conscience and the ability to express remorse. People in the Anti-social classification do not demonstrate the ability to express or feel remorse. There are other differences, but this is key.Sometimes that ability is buried, deep, deep, deep beneath a pile of s--t, but it is there."
comment by T C Brown

Comments?

NPD can have a conscience and express remorse, P never can?

NPD is ammenable (with difficulty!) to therapy, P is not ?

NPD is a subset of fullblown psychopathy - on the same axis but in some respects less extreme? Persistent made this point further up the thread. Not sure, but the more I think about this the more I think she's on the right track...

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#1567 - 11/26/04 02:48 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hi JAM,

Re:American Description Diagnostic Criteria

I am terribly busy and don't have time to peruse the site.

"7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others."

Lacks empathy! Does not have it? Has only a little of it?

Is unwilling...! Will not or cannot?

It seems that many psychiatrists use the ability to feel empathy as a real cut-off point and difference between NPD and PPD. That has been my point of view as well. And now this...

It is easy to understand why tom, dick and harriet are thoroughly confused about NPD and its close cousin PPD.

Nan

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#1568 - 11/27/04 04:10 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
One more for luck...

Personality Disorders in the Paranoid-Narcissistic Spectrum,
by Dr. T. O'Connor, Dept of Justice Studies, NC Wesleyan College

..which ties in with Persistents 'spectrum' analysis towards the top of this thread, and my own tentative thoughts that Narcissism can be regarded as a subset of full blown psychopathy.

Excerpt:
Narcissism is a somewhat less severe form of psychopathy...

... Narcissists can rarely be cured, but side effects, associated disorders (such as OCD), pathological lying, and the paranoiac dimensions CAN be modified.


ok... I think I'm through with this topic now...life is too short!!

..whatever... Narcissists and Psychopaths are both nasty pieces of work... It doesnt really matter if you're not sure what you're dealing with. Same advice applies to both. RUN LIKE HELL!!!

... and I'm still confused. The more I think about the personality disordered individual that I have personal knowledge of, the more I see a psychopath (very definitely!!) and NPD in the same individual. Is this possible?... a P with some N bolted on top!!

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#1571 - 05/09/05 06:46 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How did he get the insight to realize he is a psychopath though? I thought their insight was pitiful?

-Delta2477

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#1572 - 05/10/05 03:42 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

How did he get the insight to realize he is a psychopath though? I thought their insight was pitiful?


Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Psychopathy are not the same thing. And I wouldn't like to say what Sam Vaknin's problem is. He thinks he's a 'Narcissist'. Who knows? Certainly not his psychiatrist because he's never been diagnosed.

On the general point, Psychopaths do seem to be less insightful than NPD. They dont self refer for treatment, whereas NPD sometimes (not often) do.

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#1574 - 11/01/05 02:07 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Shelley Offline
member

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 21
Okay, I'm a new user and I've read through the thread with interest, so now I'll jump in and add my 2 cents:

On the subject of psychopathy, one of the simplest and most accurate descriptions I've ever read sums it up as follows: ". . . impulsive antisocial deviance in the context of emotional and interpersonal detachment." (see Benning, Christopher et al, 2004 in Psychological Assessment. 15(3), Sep 2003, 340-350).

So, one of the defining features of psychopathy is emotional and interpersonal detachment. Ps tend to be high dominance, low anxiety characters. (Remember all the research on electrodermal response in Ps?) This isn't something we usually see in NPD -- they're are not generally emotionally detached.

I would also say that while I can't imagine there being such a thing as a normal level of psychopathy, there is good research evidence that there is such a thing as a normal level of narcissism.

In particular, where narcissism is associated with relatively high self-esteem, "narcissism is (a) inversely related to daily sadness and dispositional depression, (b) inversely related to daily and dispositional loneliness, (c) positively related to daily and dispositional subjective well-being as well as couple well-being, (d) inversely related to daily anxiety, and (e) inversely related to dispositional neuroticism.
(see: Are Normal Narcissists Psychologically Healthy?: Self-Esteem Matters by Sedikides, Rudich, et al, 2004 in Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 87(3), 400-416.)

Having said all that, I would point out that there is good evidence for comorbidity between anti-social personality and the narcissistic, paranoid, borderline, and passive-aggressive personality disorders -- at least in criminal offenders.

See: The co-morbidity of personality disorder and lifetime clinical syndromes in dangerous offenders. (Coid, 2003, in Journal of Forensic Psychiatry & Psychology. 14(2), Sep 2003, 341-366).

So, it isn't our imagination -- there is often significant overlap between NPD and P.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that there is only one expert in psychopathy -- this is inaccurate and I'm sure that Dr. Hare's many students would take exception to the comment. There's a great deal of excellent published research by people who have spent many years studying this stuff -- though most of it is in scientific journals. (This is not to take anything from Dr. Hare -- who has made much of this info accessible).

On a personal note, I would mention that my P ws diagnosed as NPD with anti-social features. However (and this is a point I've made elsewhere), these diagnoses are made on the basis of self-reports and psychometrist observation/assessment. This is incomplete information. (Just ask any of us who have had a P in our life!)

Although there is a decent relationship between self-reports and informant (family mambers) reports, the correlation (at best) is only around .48 -- that means that there's a ton of missing information when it comes to self-reported psychopathy. Researchers should be paying closer attention to family members if they want to get a better handle on all aspects of psychopathy (but then I digress. . . .).

Shelley~

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