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#1589 - 11/10/05 04:54 PM NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R test [Re: sylvie25]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Here is the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy according to the PCL-R test. If you will look at the criteria as they are clustered in the test you will see that Aggressive Narcissism is a core feature of Psychopathy, but there is more to psychopathy than narcissism. So in essence all psychopaths are narcissistic, but all narcissists are not psychopaths.

There is a link at the bottom of the page for where I got this test.
_________

Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test)

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. The items are as follows:

Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

* Glibness/superficial charm
* Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Pathological lying
* Cunning/manipulative
* Lack of remorse or guilt
* Shallow affect
* Callous/lack of empathy
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

* Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
* Parasitic lifestyle
* Poor behavioral controls
* Early behavioral problems
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
* Impulsivity
* Irresponsibility
* Juvenile delinquency
* Revocation of conditional release
* Continual acceptance antisocial behaviour

Traits not correlated with either factor

* Promiscuous sexual behavior
* Many short-term marital relationships
* Criminal versatility

Score 0 if the trait is absent, 1 if it is possibly or partially present and 2 if it is present. The item scores are summed to yield a total score ranging from 0 to 40 which is then considered to reflect the degree to which they resemble the prototypical psychopath. A score higher than 30 supports a diagnosis of psychopathy. Forensic studies of prison populations have reported average scores of around 22 on PCL-R; control "normal" populations show an average score of around 5.

A note of caution: the test must be administered by a trained mental health practitioner under controlled conditions for it to have any validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath
_________

I hope this was helpful.

Diane1969

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#1590 - 11/11/05 04:10 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: Diane1969]
JustAMan Offline
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Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items.



You've got 21 items in the 20 item checklist there Diane!


Dr. Hares 20 item checklist with the standard gloss on each item can be seen 1/3 way down this page

Above it is the checklist of Dr. Hervey Cleckley, whose work on psychopathy preceded and inspired that of Hare and who wrote the first 'modern' book on psychopathy, "The Mask of Sanity' . A major difference is that Cleckley considered 'average or above average intelligence' to be a core factor in defining psychopathy. Most modern researchers do not have anything to say about intelligence and psychopathy. Some Ps are intelligent and some stupid, just as in the nrmal population.

Download "The Mask of Sanity" by Dr. Hervey Cleckley.
(Entire book in PDF format, 1.3Mb, requires Adobe Reader )

This is an important book on the subject but a slightly tough read due to Cleckleys somewhat dense and old fashioned wrting style. Worth persisting with, though.

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#1591 - 11/11/05 11:53 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R test [Re: Diane1969]
WhiteKnight Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 80
hi Dianne,

is the term "narcissism" being used in more that
one way here?

it seems that we all have some level of narcissism, i.e.
an optimistic view of our own qualities, and
indeed require it, for a healthy existance. (term #1)

I think the psycopath takes it to a pathological extreme,
where the worth of others just don't figure into his world-
view.

I think the N's narcissism is superficially the same,
but involves a relationship with an idealized model of
himself which is unreal. (term #2)

he never approaches the model
in this real world, hence his unhappiness, and recedes from
the model as he ages.

just trying to get a handle on this whole N vs P thing...

-WK
_________________________
-- All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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#1592 - 11/12/05 04:14 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: JustAMan]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Dear JustAMan,

not my words, here... I cut and pasted the text from the link. I didn't bother to count the items...

Thanks for the other links.

Diane

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#1593 - 11/12/05 04:18 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: WhiteKnight]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Dear WhiteKnight,

I'm not a psychologist, but I agree with you that there is healthy self-referencing and then there is total self-referencing. Healthly self-referencing doesn't exclude other people from the equation.

Agressive Narcissism traits quoted in the PCL-R test, I think you would agree, have nothing to do with a healthy way of interacting with others.

Diane


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#1594 - 11/13/05 07:50 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: Diane1969]
WhiteKnight Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 80
hi Dianne,

yes, I think APD Narcissistic traits are unhealthy!!!! :-}

I seem to have got this static mental model that the N has from Sam Vaknin.
I guess, early on I had taken him for the authority on narcissim, though I
may have to revisit that somewhat. I think he has a rat's nest of web sites,
so you can think your reading something independent of Dr S, but really you're
still with the same source.

he seems to be saying that the N has a static idealized image of what
he should be -- falling in love with the narcissistic reflection. the model
never changes as he matures, or fails to mature.

Vaknin puts it in terms of Freudian child developement "object love",
"self love", stuff like that. Freudian psychology sounds way cool, but I've
never really been able to assimilate it.

this static idealized self that he can never become seems to describe "my" N
to a "T". so I guess I've really run with this understanding of the mental
model of the N. he can become hysterical, aggressive, and paranoid when
his model is threatened. this really seems to differentiate him from "my" P,
who has no such stress point.

we'll figure this out eventually...

-WK
_________________________
-- All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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#1595 - 11/14/05 08:14 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: WhiteKnight]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Well, I tend to think of this in terms of attachment disorder and internalized parent object/internalized self object. So, in healthy children the good parent and bad parent are fused in the psyche and internalized as a self-referencing and balance point for the individual... who later on uses this internalized image as a starting point for self awareness and development... for identification and differentiation from the parent/s.

The person who can never internalize either a bad or good parent or a fused version, never has anything to hold onto, never has any inner stability, or even a solid sense of identity. The manipulation, lies, betrayal, lack of emotional effect, lack of guilt or remorse, callousness, glibness, superficiality, narcissim and self-referencing are all death grips on reality for these people. If they ever give up and just try to interact instead of manipulate, a cold rage is the response, because there is nothing inside of them that CAN relate to anyone else, and to let go of the lies and manipulation is to let go of the only reality they know, even if it IS just delusion.

There really is nothing there, except an undifferentiated gelatinous blob of protoplasmic identity that never formed.

That static idealized self that is part of all pathologic narcissism is a mask just like everything else they do. And if you dare pry around the edges, you will find that even they know it is all delusion.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Dee

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#10231 - 10/26/10 03:20 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: Diane1969]
angel Offline
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Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
I have been reading about narcisstic disorders NPD and am unclear to what the differance is ? Is it perhaps that a person with NPD has a little bit more of a consious?
regarding probrably directed more to themselves.. so there just simply more self involved.. more oppotunistic.sounds in fact MORE dangerous re: as far as violence or not?

I want to share a situation that happened to me recently:

I have been dating this man for a few months now and few weeks back we had a large arrguement over some of his coping skills or LACK of them to stressors in his life.

anyway this arguement turned out bad and he left for several days.I heard back from him telling me he wonted to invite me out to the countryside where he had found a nice cabin that we could relax at yet he would need some help money wise to do it that we could go halfers on it.
it was a luxury place he said.. and WE deserve it..

that it was well worth the price and great place.. etc... so I agreed..it was a long time since we had any holiday so this was it and it was to be a short term rental so we could have this place for a few weeks.or more even he said we could even move in together . I thought great I could use a few weeks off I havent had a break in a year. and I thought maybe some stabilty like moving in together would be good for him and I .

He said he wonted to try and repair the realationship from the last fight and he needed to relax.. and a getaway home would be very healing.

I thought it was a great plan so I followed his directions to the remote place and finnaly got there.the odd thing was that he was distant, to me it seemed he was hiding something? it was odd??

something in my soul was saying .. He seemed to play acting and as I caught him many times with a horrible , pained look on his face. My body shivered many times..out of nowhere, and I had this nasue feeling in my gut.

It was late that night and we were in bed, he was trying to well.. get BUSY but something once again said no!

I then decided to ask him point blank if he had CHEATED on me he started to flare up real bad..! and yelling at me said why are you so damn insecure!! why does it always have to be about your jelousy and other women!! this is not about an OTHER WOMAN.

MY sixth sense told me he was lying so call it psychic knowing I went to the bathroom looked in his toiltries case and sure enough profolactics.. my question was answered.

He was caught , I said to him the situation and he admitted he had been with this woman .

I asked him "WHEN" he said just 2 nights ago I was horrified? confused..
I said to him why ASK me out here? how can you do such an act and play with my life and heart ? get me out here try and get busy with me knwoing this ACT that you have done aginast me?

he said "he did it to spite me and get even for the fight we had that I had caused him such pain and sorrow that I deserved to be hurt and to learn a LESSON that this was MY lesson..

So I said to him you PLANNED this week end just to do this then?? he said well I knew
what I was doing and cheating on you would close the book in my mind about you and hurt you at the same time.

I said " but if you were not going to tell me then how can ithurt me" , i found out on my own by seeing the goodies in your case.

it was a set up he said..then he went bolistic he said "stop ruining the #### evening all you ever do is RUIN days and this is another ruined week end!! "I" wanted to have a nice time with you and now you have ruined "my" trip here you F#### B @@@..

ITS ALWAYS ABOUT YOU ...YOU THINK YOUR SO @@@@ right and special to ruin good feelings!!

I said what good feelings the fact that I asked you or found you OUT ..

(all he could repeat was how much I was ruining his life and week end and his antics were getting more agressive..) not once could he ONCE see into his OWN responcibility and actions aganst me and how wrong and sick the PLAN he had against ne was wrong) he just continued talking about his RUINED night and week end.. thenhe started to charcter assasinate me about everyhting...

from my looks to my life, to my family to all he could muster up he was SADISTIC
AND HIS WORDS WHERe LIKE guns..

I was sitting in the chair and he walked to the fridge and as he was behind me he hit me so hard in the head I went flying out of my chair onto the ground.

he said that should teach you to learn a lesson to NOT RUIBGOOD EVENINGS.. you deserve all th [censored] thats coming your way.. you started this by EVEN ASKING ABOUT AND BRINGING UP THE TOPIC OF CHEATING..YOU CANT SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND HAVE A NICE TIME CAN YOU!!!!

I CANT HAVE LOVE IN MY LIFE the minuite i do its taken away.. you took AWAY all my good feelings so yeah I slept with this lady I PLANNED THAT TOO by the way...

i WAS TRYING TO GET UP OFF THE GROUND he said I wasnt hurt that I was a drama queen and that I am also on the ground trying to make him feel something and manipulative by pretending to be HURT..which I was..my lip was split open

but he just kept on I got up he pushed me back down with his hands over my whole face.. and said more horrific things to me.. he did this most of the night and all he would say is that IT WAS MY FAULT...for ruining the night things were going so well??

HIS nite that I should be so lucky to be invited out here and have him cook a nice meal and spend the money on the cabin.. and expensive wine etc..that I was a horrible woman.. to be so UNGRATEFUL to him..and RUIN HIS PLANS and nice INTENTIONS...

he didnt even once see his INVOLVEMENT and his diabolical nature to premeditating the whole scene AND HIS ACT OF infedelity was nothing that he saw it as his RIGHT to cheat on me ..

but all he could comment on was ME my fault..not his..

I said cant you see your actions here.. you have hit me are violent.. he could not respond.. he would just say.. you started it.. you started it... back to me like a game of children name calling back nad forth.. he had no idea of his involvment.. nor would he admitt anything..

latter now he is what is called ALLOPLASTIC .. a term meaning shifting blame in any situation...common with abusers.. and narcissists..

as the night went //on no way to leave.. it was remote area.. dark.. forested.. no phone..

in the middle of nowhere.. I was basically verbally assulted and hurt physically he tried to strangle me... when I said he would ...could go to jail..

he at that point in time got me on the floor and tried to choke me.. and he said "go !!

do it!! I wont to go to jail.. but am smarter than all of them there jail is nothing..it will be a holiday for me..watch"

he watched a movie on tv... was laughing at the movie and acting like noting he did happened.. he was elatted almost at his ability to shut off...drink his beer and watch the screen .

the morning arrived.. and he was in the same terrorising state.. verbally abusive.. hit me with a book upon waking up when I spoke he slandered my words.. or would come up too me towering over me.. like in the posistion to hit me one...

am lucky to be alive..

I got away... with him still saying till the horrific end..

"its all your fault.. your the psycho" and on and on as I began to leave..he was purely convinced of his own words and actions.. that he was a saint and I was the devil.

if there is a devil incarnation he is one..

now my idea is yes in advance I did see some bizarre traits of rather selfish behaviour thtas true.. in various situations with his family.. and me.. and I did see a lack of control , and his in abilty for ACCOUNTABILITY...

but this was something I had not ever dreamed of the seeting PREMEDITATED vengance he saought towards me..with this encounter with this woman...to this me pressing his fragile

buttons of his self worth lack of it.. not giving or taking away his narscisstic supply regarding the PLESANT nite he had planned out...

turned to a movie like horror film in the woods.. so I beleive that the combined psychopathy ..and narcssisim is both there in him.. he is a killer and as he displayed no remorese at all.. NONE... not once did he care anout my life.. not once.. while doing this to me..he was enjoying his power over me his physical strength over me..all night..

as I left he was reading a book in the hot tub.. I tried to make him see his involvement .. and all he did was yell deameaning spitting ..blaming words to me.. and that all of this was to teach me a lesson....

that I was a spoiled woman like child that needed to learn.. so this was his teachings...
he couldnt care one bit about my feeelings , life, or bruised up body.. not at all.

he just sat in that hot tub with a blank look not even flinching.. not even blinking...

I guess he got his nice getaway retreat paid for knwing I sure wasnt going to hang out there with him after his ACTS OF CRUELTY... so knieving, premeditated.. actions.. along with sheer cruel abuse.. and life threatening.. hell with him just calmly sitting there relaxing ..after his horrors to me.. his hands washed.. convinced.. I deserve this..and he is the victim of ME ? so there fore his actions are justified.. as he puts it.
as he sits there in silent , yet content expression on his face.

I left and I have left some of my personal belongings there.. as well as I just wonted to get out I took the necessary articles.. as he sat in the hot tub.. but left alot of stuff still there. my cell phone is off anyway he has no reception there anyways..

what a nitemare.. I see these shows on tv about stuff like this but never in my wilddest dreams would I guess this would happen to me.. he is soooooooo

charming, gorgeous man, brilliant super smart. speaks languges.. so romantic.. great lover!! dotting..when he is in a good mood..

the 2 sides to his personality.. or is his personality the one in the woods..????
out came the truth..

he has drinking issues not a everyday drinker but when he does he cant stop..so at first I thought it was brought on by alchol?? no excuse at all.. BTW

but seeing as thought the next day was the same..it was not the case.. he was only more GLIB.. and unaffected.. acting.. flat lined .. and only caring of his books, movies..and hot tubbing for HIMSELF.at his now expensive all paid out for thanks to ME he has his retreat home...as i left he never even looked my way from his book.

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#10233 - 10/26/10 03:27 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: angel]
angel Offline
member

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
hanging on...


Thank you for the link I am thinking he is prob both.?

But lack of shallow emotions and relentless , sadistic , no remorse what so ever..

leads me to belive the worst.. of him the way and manner in which he went about the whole thing week end escapade.. was so pre meditated.. from his affairs and telling me at the cabin to getting the money out of me BEFORE he told me this .. and when I reacted like any NORMAL human being would in despair and hurt he ..began to destroy me bit by bit verbally..

physically attacking me..and then seeminly nothing to him sitting on the couch afyer a round of physical attack on me and verbal torture..like words.. to break apart anyones world ..to him quietly sitting watching his TV while am on the floor trying to get my head to see straight enough to walk.

So yeah.. I think he is a real treat to society.. Lol .. the balck holes in the eyes..

like he really is a tru predator.. the over exagerated.. charm and overwhelming stance he takes in public and upon meeting new popel they justthink he is a jewel could say nicer things about him... !! whata perfect guy hes so super nice , smart, and what a looker.. so hot etc...

little do they know whats under all that.. its s thin as ice..

wondering if anyone had any thoughts on my Psychopath guy???

all comments are of great support and help. AND ITS ALWAYS GOOD TO KNOW YOUR not alone out there .

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#10234 - 10/26/10 03:29 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: angel]
angel Offline
member

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
thanks for responding. i agree with the notion that the Psychopath and the Narcissist are on the same continuum. i have some of my own opinions on this continuum, which have been heavily influenced by postings here.

without actually using the terms "psychopath" or "narcissist", maybe we can just conceive of a continuum
bounded by two extremes. the low end is a person who has no apparent defense mechanisms. the true self is just "there", exposed, naked for all to see. the person is honest "to a fault" and overly harshly judgmental of themselves. their thoughts are a direct reflection of their feelings. the only time they may warp the truth is through irrational self-criticism. at the other end of the continuum is a person who has constructed an impenetrable fortress around the true self. reality is continually warped and folded into a strangely contoured plane under the auspices of a bizarre style of dyadic communication and, i suspect, systematic self-delusion. the goal of this strategy is shielding the true self from reality, at all costs. those individuals who make the mistake (through no fault of their own) of getting "close" to this person will suffer as they are unwittingly drawn into the warped reality, as they are also bent and twisted to serve the unrelenting guardian of the true self. that same guardian will cast them aside once they are of no use for protecting the true self. this guardian cannot be reasoned with. it says "if you want it (the true self) you will have to go through me first." none of us mere mortals are a match.

as we move along this continuum, from the high end to low end, we see a growing disconnection between the spoken word and reality, as the relative strength of the true and false selves is inverted. we have chosen to call the
person at the upper end of the continuum a "psychopath." I don't know what to call the person at the lower end (although I have known them).

my posting above was intended to convey that the psychopath, the person who is completely under the rule of the false self, is so disconnected from reality (essentially, he or she is "imprisoned" by the false self) that he/she has no hope of any form of self-reflection that might lead to release. some narcissists do have remarkable insight into their own pathology (like sam vaknin), and i think it is because in such cases the false self, in a manner of speaking, does not have the true self completely imprisoned. the true self escapes from the dungeon periodically to look at the world beyond.

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