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#1516 - 10/19/02 09:00 AM Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi everybody,



i am going to pose the following question and answer with absolutely no elaboration, as i think they might start a productive thread (and i think only people in this group will know what i am getting at):



Q: What exactly is the difference between narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and psychopathy?



A: There is a chance that a person with NPD could answer the question. There is no chance that a psychopath could.



persistent

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#1517 - 10/19/02 10:05 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Boo Offline
member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 24
Hi persistent,

We have these N vs. P discussions periodically. Normally I just answer that in my humble opinion, the N and P are on the same continuum, but the N is just higher functioning. Your answer seems to refer to the simple truth that you will never ever get an honest answer from a P when you ask him about himself.

Coincidentally last week I got a book on personality and defense mechanisms and such called "Psychoanalytic Diagnosis" (1994) by Nancy McWilliams which addresses the P/N issue. On page 166 she writes

PSYCHOPATHIC VERSUS NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY

"Finally, there is a very close connection between psychopathic and narcissistic conditions. Both character types reflect a subjectively empty internal world and a dependence on external events to provide self-esteem. Some theorists (Kernberg, 1975; Meloy, 1988) put psychopathy and narcissism on one dimension, characterized overall as narcissistic; the psychopath is considered as on the pathological end of the narcissistic continuum. I would argue that antisocial and narcissistic people are different enough to warrant a continuum for each. Most sociopathic people do not idealize repetitively, and most narcissistic ones do not depend on omnipotent control. But many people have aspects of both character types, and self-inflation can characterize either one.

"Because treatment considerations are quite different for the two groups (e.g., sympathetic mirroring comforts most narcissistic people but antagonizes antisocial ones) despite the things they have in common and the number of people who have aspects of each orientation, it seems to me more useful to differentiate carefully between them."

Based on your post, and McWilliams' last comment above, I wonder if the N is just more enamored of his mask than the P, and that while the N enjoys having his mask reflected back at him, the P, with zero ability to either introspect or ponder or deliberate or self-reflect on himself, puts his mask up but doesn't want to think about it and certainly doesn't want it reflected back at him. Just some thoughts.

Sincerely, Boo

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#1518 - 10/19/02 12:13 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Boo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi boo

thanks for responding. i agree with the notion that the P and the Narcissist are on the same continuum. i have some of my own opinions on this continuum, which have been heavily influenced by postings here.

without actually using the terms "psychopath" or "narcissist", maybe we can just conceive of a continuum
bounded by two extremes. the low end is a person who has no apparent defense mechanisms. the true self is just "there", exposed, naked for all to see. the person is honest "to a fault" and overly harshly judgmental of themselves. their thoughts are a direct reflection of their feelings. the only time they may warp the truth is through irrational self-criticism. at the other end of the continuum is a person who has constructed an impenetrable fortress around the true self. reality is continually warped and folded into a strangely contoured plane under the auspices of a bizarre style of dyadic communication and, i suspect, systematic self-delusion. the goal of this strategy is shielding the true self from reality, at all costs. those individuals who make the mistake (through no fault of their own) of getting "close" to this person will suffer as they are unwittingly drawn into the warped reality, as they are also bent and twisted to serve the unrelenting guardian of the true self. that same guardian will cast them aside once they are of no use for protecting the true self. this guardian cannot be reasoned with. it says "if you want it (the true self) you will have to go through me first." none of us mere mortals are a match.

as we move along this continuum, from the high end to low end, we see a growing disconnection between the spoken word and reality, as the relative strength of the true and false selves is inverted. we have chosen to call the
person at the upper end of the continuum a "psychopath." I don't know what to call the person at the lower end (although I have known them).

my posting above was intended to convey that the psychopath, the person who is completely under the rule of the false self, is so disconnected from reality (essentially, he or she is "imprisoned" by the false self) that he/she has no hope of any form of self-reflection that might lead to release. some narcissists do have remarkable insight into their own pathology (like sam vaknin), and i think it is because in such cases the false self, in a manner of speaking, does not have the true self completely imprisoned. the true self escapes from the dungeon periodically to look at the world beyond.

persistent

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#1519 - 10/19/02 05:54 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
neverthesame Offline
member

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 53
A brilliant post Persistant. This is the best explanation I have read about psychopathy vs. narcissism. I agree with your opinions. This supports my own experience. I lived the "warped reality" and unwittingly supported the guardianship of his self delusion. I now understand how even an educated and aware individual can be brainwashed. It is a baffling and profoundly horrendous experience considering the insidious way a Psychopath entered my life and changed my reality. I was no match. I suffered and am recovering, stronger, more aware, and determined not to ever go through this horror again. I support the premise of "no contact" and no hope for the possibility of change or modification of behavior. A psychopath never changes. They are to be avoided at all costs.

Neverthesame

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#1520 - 10/20/02 05:16 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


persistent, Neverthesame is right. This is a brilliant post. So often, a phenomenon can be understood better by dropping the names and labels, and describing the thing itself. You are "thinking outside the box". Going straight to the heart of the matter.

And I think you describe it exactly. A continuum on which, at one end the true self is present and unguarded, and at the other, the true self is locked behind an impenetrable fortress. This image is ripe with gifts of understanding for me. The victim of the psychopath becomes captive to the guardian, too, because her essence of truth and reality is a threat to the guardian who will have none of that, lest, through resonance, true self should draw to itself true self. This is the way it works on the spiritual plane. In fact, love is nothing more than a resonance of truth, hence phrases like "two hearts beating together" and "I felt like we were one". It is chilling how the psychopath (guardian) so perfectly creates the impression of this experience in the beginning, seduction phase.

You image also helps me to put into a spiritual perspective the condition of the psychopath, in a way that nourishes my forgiveness a little bit. If the guardian is not the true self (and clearly it isn't), then the psychopath is a human being in captivity. The captor is certainly a warped malevolent monster, and this is the only one a person attempting to get close to the captive human being will ever really encounter, but it defends (and destroys) an actual human being.

I agree that the narcissist escapes, periodically, goes out into the real world and takes a look around. And I agree that the psychopath has no hope of release. At least, not in this life. Not unless God himself effects a miracle.

This phenomenon called psychopathy is one of life's great tragedies.

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#1521 - 10/20/02 07:40 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


hi kris

you said:

"You image also helps me to put into a spiritual perspective the condition of the psychopath, in a way that nourishes my forgiveness a little bit."

i am glad. i wanted to say that i write to facilitate my own forgiveness as well as my understanding of the nature of the P. while anger is both a natural and necessary part of the understanding and recovery process in the P aftermath, it is not sufficient. our anger still partially chains us to the P and the experience. it does not serve our spirit in the long run. i think that the only complete release is genuine forgiveness and, i believe, some degree of sympathy. i hope that i can get there someday. strangely, sometimes i find myself becoming furious at myself for wanting to forgive, to express sympathy. but i want to get to the point where i could honestly say to the Ps I knew: "i am sorry i was not strong enough to rescue your imprisoned soul. i am sorry that the dragon at the gate turned all my love and friendship to piles of ash. but i had to move on when the well ran dry. i am sorry for what you have to be." if i could get to that point, truly, then i think maybe i would finally be free.

forgiveness arises out of understanding and shifts in perspective and insight. kris, you have said that you compensated for the lack of love and acceptance that your mother showed you by helping others and opening yourself up to them, basically just putting yourself out for others on a consistent basis to get recognition for the good inner self that your mother could not see. then the psychopath drops in out of the blue, a person with the power to zero in on your inner self and exploit and drain it for all it is worth. when you say that the children of people with personality disorders are the future prey of Ps, i believe you are are exactly correct.

now, i would like to offer something else for your consideration. i also think the exact same processes may breed the predators as the prey, just that those who become the predators have chosen to react in a different way to the initial abuse, to compensate for it in a different manner. they come to believe that the true inner self is worthless and consequently set up the narcissistic fortress. they only want people to support their false or illusory self, not the true one which they perceive as unworthy of support, based on years of systematic devaluation and invalidation. they will not permit the true self to be loved, or rather, the dragon at the gate will not permit it. contrast that directly with the person who has chosen to deal with the same type of abuse by showing the inner self in all its perceived goodness to others, in hopes of finally getting the core goodness to be appreciated. so we have two vastly different entities born of the same pattern of devaluation. then these two entities meet, these two distinct people who have been formed by the same process, this person we choose to conveniently call the "psychopath" and the other which we can call........? perhaps they are both "targets." one wants the true inner self to be recognized, one wants support for the false projected self or image. they each derive sustenance from the other, the participants in this strange form of symbiosis. but something goes wrong. the one who is of the true inner self cannot support the other's false inner self indefinitely. the hunger of this entity is too great. a great imbalance develops in the symbiosis, and so the dragon appears, out in the open in all its flaming terror to defend the inner self of the one we call "psychopath", once the questioning starts, once the demands of the other for meaningful and subtle expressions of love appear. this point in the symbiosis is what we have conveniently chosen to call "the slipping of the mask." this is the point at which the true battle with the dragon begins. and there is no knight with a sword and shield that will come to slay it. no human can.

it all overwhelms me. thinking that the same essential cycles of abuse forge human personalities destined to collide like billiard balls, starting new causal chains.... round and round we all go. and here we are, a small group of people brought together by those processes, a group well on its way to understanding and forgiveness, not just of the Ps but perhaps of their lives in general. the others, those we call "psychopaths", are still lost, or more accurately, trapped.

persistent

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#1522 - 10/20/02 09:42 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


persistent, I agree with kris and neverthesame that your post is brilliant regarding the relationship between Narcissism and Psychopathy. I've been struggling for a lifetime to achieve liberation from the training and injury of being a child raised by narcissistic and psychopathically disordered parents, being in a very long term marriage to a psychopath, and dealing with changing the the ways that I have dealt with similar disordered people in my life. I, as nevertherthesame also wrote about, have achieved some progress and healing through no contact. No matter what deluded thinking passes through my mind I have ruthlessly held myself to this one rule. Its been almost a year since I initiated it and has been more difficult than I ever imagined. I can't even really describe it. Cold turkey withdrawal and detoxificaton from a soul killing poison. No more ramming myself against that impenetrable fortress to the false self. I'm awake now seeing more of myself. This is a blessing

I'm making progress, gaining skill and strength. Life is getting more delicious.

Cherie

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#1523 - 10/20/02 10:14 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


persistent, I write for the same reasons you do, to process hurt and anger, gain more insight, and move toward forgiveness (for the peace of my own soul, among other reasons). And I believe you are right that we will not be truly free until we reach the point of forgiveness and sympathy for them. More like sorrow. Not the kind of sorrow that arises out of personal pain, but the kind we feel about any other blight on the face of humanity. I don't expect to reach this goal in my life time, but I will make do with just trying to keep moving in that direction.

I am in line with your ideas about how psychopaths and psychopath's prey are created. Maybe, in this regard, the term "narcissist" is more apt than "psychopath", since there is the biological aspect to consider in the formation of true psychopaths (but I'll leave that aside for now).

My husband serves as an interesting example when using your model to examine the formation of a narcissist. On the surface, no child was ever more loved than my husband. His family and extended fmaily worshipped him like royalty. As an adult, his visits brough out the red carpet, feasts, and endless speeches of adulation, including raves about how precious and loved he was as a child. On the surface, he and I could not have come from more different backgrounds. But scratch the surface, and you find the same malignancy: narcissism. My mother's narcissism expressed itself as hatred of anyone not a perfect extension and reflection of her ideal (and unreal) self. My husband's family's narcissism expressed itself as maniacal self-love seeing its reflection in all of its "own".

This is also the difference between BPD and NPD. A BPD is self-centered, but consumed with self-hatred. An NPD is self-centered, but consumed with self adoration.

Over the years with my husband, I came to see that all of the fawning "love" in his family was just as toxic as the hatred I got from my mother. Because none of it, not one drop, ever had anything to do with the actual human being being fawned over. A child knows that. An infant knows that. Especially when some of that "love" is expressed sexually, which, in my husband's case, it was. The actual human being is annihilated by all that selfish carrying on, the real meaning of which is, "Aren't I something special? My kid is genetically superior, a gift to humanity from God."

"...these two distinct people who have been formed by the same process, this person we choose to conveniently call the "psychopath" and the other which we can call........? perhaps they are both "targets." one wants the true inner self to be recognized, one wants support for the false projected self or image."

Yes. I follow. Though, while I am clear about what the psychopath wants from "her", I am less clear about what she wants from him. Initially, she wants that overwhelming recognition and validation of her inner self that he so gloriously mimicks. But what keeps her there when it all turns to the worst kind of invalidation and blindness to her inner self? I think maybe that is where she is stuck inside. Maybe she really believes that others are valuable and she is not (although his initial adoration of her gave her great hope that it wasn't true, hooked her in her softest place). And so Psychopath is able to work this flaw into a deepening valuation of him, and a reciprocally deepening devaluation of her. All the while convincing her that if she asks for anything or says ouch, she is a selfish, terrible person (which on some level, she believes).

And then, we come to the spiritual challenge. At least the more real person (the victim) can take it up. She has a true self, if only she can wrest it from the psychopath's control. And that is her spiritual path. Which, in essence, is the same one presented to Adam and Eve, in the garden. Once they had eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they had to learn to discern between the two. In order to move toward spiritual freedom.

The victim is more fortunate than the psychopath. As a result of choosing right from the beginning, perhaps. the psychopath cannot take up a spiritual path. He is spiritually frozen in this life.

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#1524 - 10/20/02 10:35 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


A clear cut example of the accurateness of all this, is a dream the P, that targetted me, told me one day.


In his dream he was standing outside of a mobile home (the body )with a friend who only had one eye. ( the third eye? ) There are all these people inside the mobile home. He sees his son ( himself ), a little boy trapped, in a car ( another moving vehicle, the body ), he and his friend are powerless to rescue the child out of the car, so just stand and watch, helplessly,from a distance

Betrayed

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#1525 - 10/20/02 10:46 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Now I'm going to jump back in here with more the of the endless gibberish that goes on in my head. There are some things that have bothered me for a long time and this might be a good time to get them off my chest.

I believe the p's resoundingly, from a percentage standpoint, tend more often to be males than females, correct me if I'm wrong. This would indicate that boys are somehow at risk in a way that girls are not. Of course, boys and girls are different, although we hope to lose sight of that in our nonsense attempts at a unisex culture. So, as to my observations, having lived for a while with children, I've noticed that the boys seem to be in some way more tender, more in need of mother's protection, more vulnerable, than the girls. The girls are out there ready to conquer the world at a young age, learning everything faster, from small motor to verbal skills. They are relational in their orientation, learning from babyhood to communicate their inner self with others. The boys are slower to develop these verbal and motor skills and more focused on the objects of the world and mastery. They seem clueless when it comes to understanding the more subtle interactions of human behaviour. Of course, I am speaking in generalizations, but it is something that I have observed, so I accept it as my own empirical truth. I remember being struck by one experiment where two 4 yr old girls are sent into an empty room with two chairs. The girls immediately take the chairs, which are side by side, and turn them to face each other. They then sit there and talk with words, gestures, and eye contact. Then two 4 year old boys are sent into the room. The boys sit in the chairs side by side, no eye contact, looking at the floor, kicking their feet, not saying a whole lot to each other. Even by the age of 4, these children are exhibiting a totally different approach to the world, based on their gender.

Yes, we can say, viva la difference, but doesn't this imply that the the raising of boys and girls demands different approaches? Well, apparently we do often take different approaches to boys and girls, but maybe not the right one. I read somewhere that girls are held more by mothers and receive more attention from teachers. Don't we tend to be more protective of our girls? We all know that boys are treated more roughly, in some misguided attempt to make them 'men' at tender ages. How would this rough treatment feel to a sensitive boy who does not have the verbal skills to communicate his feelings or society's permission to do so?

And so on. You can see where I'm going with this. Has anyone other than me noticed how smart these p's tend to be? Does that intelligence itself imply a certain built in vulnerability? And, what about the targets they pick? Are they all as loving, nurturing, and protective as they seem to be? Sounds like the perfect mother those boys longed for, doesn't it? Of course, 'perfect mother' is an idealization which doesn't exist, but is this what they are looking for? I've said it before, but how much of a hook for the target is this lost boy buried within the p? When the perfect mother turns out to be human, with her own needs and wants rather than a bottomless pit of giving, does she then trigger all the pent up rage of that 2, 3, 4 year old real self, buried beneath layers of urbane sophistication and sophistry, becoming the target of the only thing the p allows himself to feel from his true self, the infantile 'scorched earth' desire to destroy that which frustrates?

I'm not a child psychologist, of course, but my opinion is that mothers need to make more of an effort to protect the tenderness of their boys and teach them to communicate their feelings, and fathers need to show their boys that real men can have feelings and still be strong. At a time when our children need us more than ever, it seems that we are turning our backs on them, farming them out to daycare, after school care, latchkeys, and gangs.

Whether p's are born or made, it seems to me that if only the adults knew better how to deal with this properly, they could make a lot of difference in the outcome. This is just all my opinion, of course, and I could be totally off base, and so I will step off my soap box as gracefully as possible.

Molly

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#1526 - 10/20/02 11:05 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


" Though, while I am clear about what the psychopath wants from "her", I am less clear about what she wants from him. Initially, she wants that overwhelming recognition and validation of her inner self that he so gloriously mimicks. But what keeps her there when it all turns to the worst kind of invalidation and blindness to her inner self? I think maybe that is where she is stuck inside."

That's where our repetion compulsion comes into play. Continually, over and over, replaying what happened to us and feeling the feelings we had in our childhood. Replaying the drama over and over, just with different people. Replaying those original feelings of rejection, betrayal, violation. Like the little girl who adores her parents, and is constantly rejected by them. Or says why can't they love me for myself. Why do I have to bend to the way they want me to be to feel some sense of love. Or taking on either of our parents role and replaying their dynamics in the family.

Until we realize there is an unconcious script going on,on our part, and try and break the spell. I liken it to a hypnotic suggestion, that we are given as children.

Like a stage hypnotist, who hypnotizes a member of the audience, and says whenever I snap my fingers, you will start flapping your arms like a chicken and when the hidden hypnotist snaps his fingers, we start flapping our wings like a chicken, but don't know why we are doing it.

Betrayed

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#1529 - 10/20/02 03:32 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Molly, No gibberish. You are much more articulate than you realize.

I agree boys and girls are different in fundamental ways. I don't think this is true in the unembodied spirit. There, I think we are all both male and female. But we are incarnated as one or the other.

Alot of the differences we see have to do with subtle genetic differences, translating into subtle physiological and psychological differences. The differences are made clear by boiling down all men into one set of percentages of traits, and doing the same for women. The traits generally considered "male", and the traits considered "female", manifest cross-genderally, of course. We see interpersonally facile men, and women who cannot meaningfully relate. And we see women who are born mathematicians, and men who are born ballet dancers. But in the coarsest sort of generalization, it can be said that women are relaters (or feelers) and men are thinkers and doers. Or rather "more so" of this or that than the other sex. Generally.

Persistent's continuum could be used, in a very broad (crude) way, to indicate the continuum between male and female. If one thinks of women as more inwardly turned, and men as more outwardly turned. Even physical sexual charactersitics express this principle. A woman's sex points inward. A man's sex points outward. I think a female is at an advantage, in terms of inner development, by virtue of being born female. And so, mothers do have an important task in helping boys to develop inwardly.

I don't want get into weird territory, but according to my beliefs (reincarnation), the cycle is male-female-male-female. I bring this up so as to indicate that I, in no way, see one SOUL as more developed than another, based upon an "accident" of birth. Both male and female characteristics are valuable to the development of every soul.

But, if there are more male psychopaths than female ones, this difference could be part of the explanation.

Even more disturbing to me, in these difficult socio-economic and materialistic times, is the "daycare, after school care, latchkeys, and gangs" status quo. Not to mention the video games and other electronic babysitters, and molders of our children. Electronic "babysitters" not only deliver an often violent, sociopathic message. But electronics are not possessed of a beating human heart. They are cold at the center, even when the message is warm and fuzzy. Children, male or female, cannot develop necessary inner resources without the feeding and tending of a human parent.

I think we are going to see more and more female psychopaths. I think we already are.



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#1530 - 11/16/02 07:34 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Persistent. . .

I just went through a reread this thread. When I read it the first time it was like it was in a different language for me. When I read it today. . .it all made sense and validated what i have put together relative to my P experience. Thank you.

Finished

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#1531 - 11/26/02 08:43 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think psychopaths are born not made.

There are several reason why I think this, the most significant is the CHARISMA factor, its there in most psychopaths. I think it is genetically linked to the condition. I think our ancestors probably clubbed to death the non-charismatic psychopaths before they got a chance to breed.
Charisma is a significant factor in other mental disorders too... its interesting.

Then there is the fact that being treated badly does not produce bad people across the board, it can produce damaged people yes... But bad people psychopaths, I think thats different, there are differences in the brain after all (though I suppose this could be from lack of use of certain area, isnt it more likely that some hormone factors are having an affect here) I think psychopaths are destined to be what they are, maybe the extent they act out can be altered by upbringing, but I wouldnt think by that much (maybe just criminality).

Most kids find something to love, be it a dog or cat or just adopting a friends parents... kids are practically programmes to find love its a survival instinct. (except with the psychopath finding is as far as it goes, there is no returning)


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#1532 - 11/26/02 08:56 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I meant to add a bit about NPD too sorry.

I have a friend who I think might have this, shes a nice person really but very self obsessed and always looks at her life as if it is in a spot light and everything is always great (even when it very definately isnt).

She causes damage more by accident than desugn and gets no pleasure from the damage she causes, but it is gone almost before it is noticed. There is empathy to some extent, but more because she feels she wants to be seen as being understanding, she tires of it quickly.
But I stand by what I say in that she is not bad, she is just cocooned from the outside world.

I have no therories on this condition, if it is genetic or bought on by a desperate need to be self sufficient and protected, I dont know. I real feel it is nothing like the psychopath though.

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#1533 - 10/20/04 07:33 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Mati
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10/20/04 02:27 AM

Narcissism in the Psychopath

I have prepared the following information, partly to have for myself, but also to back up my beliefs whenever it becomes appropriate. I wondered whether it might help others to relate the criteria to their own experiences. I believe that there is a high possibility of psychopathology too as there is a definate lack of conscience, but for now I am going on what is more identifiable and also because Psycholopathology is not included in the DSM. All psychopaths are also nacissists so it seemed better for me to concentrate on this.

NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER According to the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual (DSM-IV & DSM-IV-TR)

1) Grandiose sense of self importance……refused to take jobs below perceived abilities. Expected to be accepted as a ‘professional’ without having the personal qualities required, for example, commitment to career choice and well thought out career plan. Was unwilling to put in more than the absolute minimum of time over studies and research and took no interest in networking or joining associations and attending conferences etc. Saw a career as a means to an end ie to gain recognition from others of achievement and perhaps envy. Has never had a clear idea of what he wanted to do. Handled interview rejection extremely badly.

2) Fantasizes over success. Studied the stock market for a few months and was convinced that his superior knowledge would make him rich. (Made unwise investments with large losses) Took a job as a kitchen salesman and was convinced that he would make a fortune (enough to pay off a large secret debt). Had to leave after no sales. Expected to do well in exams by putting in the least amount of effort then cramming at last minute, ignoring the possibility of sickness interfering with his plans.

3) Believes he is special….has disdain full attitude towards those with ‘lesser morals’ or towards those to whom he feels superior in other ways.

4) Requires excessive admiration…is aloof and haughty towards those who do not respond to him with admiration especially if they do not like him. Expresses aggression towards them in private. Has made a violent threat towards someone in private who accused him of a violent act and reacted with extreme anger when informed of the accusation. Reacts to all negative comments from others with anger.

5) Sense of entitlement…. Would not save up for things or do without anything needed, but used credit, running up large debts with no concern about repaying them and responded anger when creditors demanded payments. Expected his feelings to be respected without conferring the same privilege to others i.e. banned stepchildren from mentioning their father and his family, partner from mentioning previous relationships right from the start of the marriage.

6) Interpersonally exploitive…takes advantage of others to achieve own ends. In his quest to receive ‘narcissistic supply’ or good opinion and trust from others especially from his children and step children, rather than working to earn this, he has used manipulation tactics to make himself look good compared with the children’s mother by undermining her parental authority and respect and love from the children by siding with them against her behind their backs, disagreeing with her decisions regarding them and using the emotional stress she was under due to his abusive of her, and her anger towards him, to let the children think that they were in danger of being attacked by her and therefore he was their protection, despite the step children’s good relationship with her before the marriage. Kept step-daughters truancy a secret on these grounds. Isolated family from previous friends and family so that wife and children became more dependent on him and took over roles and duties in the home to achieve the same end. Refused to give children areas of responsibilities and insisted on doing everything himself for them so that they grew up with little confidence in themselves and few managing skills and inability to make good decisions and therefore more open to abuse.

7)Lacks empathy…unwilling to recognise the needs of others. Would not listen to son who was upset for years that his brother was favoured and was treat differently (true) Has never respected needs or feelings of wife and blames her for his lack saying it is due to his resentment of her (imperfect behaviour)

8)Envious…had high expectations of a professional career, being envious of those in society who have been rewarded for their hard work and study, but is unwilling to put in the hard work himself and start lower down the ladder than he expected to be. Is angry and distain full towards those who have inherited riches.

9)Arrogant and haughty…especially towards psychiatrists and GP’s. Behaves dismissively towards them. Says that no-one is to be trusted, and is always defensive and paranoid apart from with children, where he becomes their best pal, easy going and permissive, never telling them what to do or correcting them when needed like other adults. They respond by thinking he is wonderful. Rages when contradicted or confronted by people he considers to be inferior to him (everyone). Has never shown respect or said a good word about anyone. Has never shown any compassion towards others who were suffering apart from animals and young children who he sees as victims like himself. However this concern seems put on and not genuine.

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#1534 - 10/21/04 01:56 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Dianne E.]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mmm... I'm not convinced that all Ps are Narcissists (but would be very happy to be directed to the research that will convince me). If you read Hare, I think he has found that a classic P has no desire to be social at all. I thnk this is reflected in the label "Anti-social Personality Disorder" and although I appreciate that the set that represents APD and the set which represents psychopaths do not map onto each other perfectly, at its core psychopaths in common with those with APD are not interested in the slightest in interacting with other people or what other people think about them, other than to get their (frequently depraved) needs met.

Loosely speaking, I believe that Narcissists are only worried that other people think what the N wants them to thing about him/her, and some of them will so pursue the acceptance of their "image" to the point that they are downright abusive, tapping into others to provide the narcisstic supplies (attention, admiration, respect, money, sex, shelter, etc) they need to facilitate the image. Like Narcissius, they are more attached to their image than to any other being, however nymph-like.

It is quite possible that most of the Ps on this board do have a degree of co-mobidity with Narcissism. Yet some of the stories and descriptions of Ps traits recounted on this board I think show that some Ps described here have scant evidence of Narcissistic disturbances.

So until someone shows me something that has been published by a qualified MD, that states explicitly that all Ps are Narcissists, I'm going to continue in my appreciation that there are Ps and there are Ns and that there is frequently co-morbidity between the two disorders.

Kind regards

KT

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#1538 - 10/21/04 08:17 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Mati]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Mati,

I am sorry! I cannot get into that site either. I have used it before but they must have closed it.

Nan

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#1541 - 11/13/04 02:29 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

Q: What exactly is the difference between narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and psychopathy?

A: There is a chance that a person with NPD could answer the question. There is no chance that a psychopath could.



Something I've been thinking about too. The two syndromes do appear on the surface to have a lot in common. Emotional deficit, and inability to empathise (I think) being the underlying common factor.

I agree with your answer. The N is capable of self awareness - they are able to come to the realisation that there is something wrong with themselves, that they are not normal, or at least very different and seek help. The N self submits to therapy. The true P lives in a perpetual delusional state concerning its own nature, and can never see that there is anything wrong with itself. Never self submits to therapy, and when it is forced into therapy will try to hide its true nature by hoodwinking the therapist. Also confusing the issue is the fact that many (all? -dont really know) P exhibit many characteristic indicators of Narcissism.

heres a response from Sam Vaknin, a self aware N, from an older thread, which I think is useful.

-------------------------
Answer by Sam contributed on November 17, 2003, at 09:18am. Last updated on November 17, 2003, at 12:16pm.

Psychopaths or Sociopaths are the old names for antisocial PD. The line between NPD and AsPD is very thin. AsPD may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of NPD.

The important differences between narcissism and the antisocial personality disorder are:

Inability or unwillingness to control impulses (AsPD);

Enhanced lack of empathy on the part of the AsPD;

Inability to form relationships, not even narcissistically twisted relationships, with other humans;

Total disregard for society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties.

As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil - they lack the intention to cause harm. As Millon notes, certain narcissists "incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt." (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000)

Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of their fellow humans. Their abuse of others is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's.
----------------------------

the final paragraph sums up the essential difference for me, though I think Sam is wrong about the psychopaths 'inability to form relationships' - or maybe just being somewhat imprecise, and misleading. Inability to form normal human relationships would be better. I.e. those based on honest communication and co-operation, rather than the p-victim bond , which from the Ps point of view is based on dishonest communication (and avoidance of communication) and exploitation.

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#1542 - 11/13/04 10:32 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Thanks for that JustAMan
<br>
<br>I agree that Psychopath's cannot form relationships, which to my mind implies a two way thing. It is a victim/purpetrator bond which is not a relationship I think.
<br>
<br>From what you have said, I must conclude that my husband is a Psychopath with strong n features in his psychology as there is definately evil intention there in the way he has manipulated his sons, not just to be n supply but to lose their love and respect for me.
<br>
<br>
<br>I do seem to want to believe that Psychopath is an n instead. What difference is there in the recovery of victims in each, does anyone know?
<br>
<br>I am doing really well and have asked my GP for me to see a psychologist for evaluation. My problems are over my sons who are alienated from me and my fears over any future relationship. I do not want to spend my life alone but I am unable to contemplate a sexual relationship as I still feel violated. I wonder of there is a diffeence in the aftermath of both conditions as far as this is concerned?

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#1544 - 11/13/04 01:35 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:
For what it is worth, personally I do not believe anything that a self "aware" N has to say, however well put.




Hi Nan,


<


NPD is not a condition I know a lot about... Ive only come across it incidentally...





Are all Narcissists pathological liars? I don't know.



In reply to:
As Millon notes, certain narcissists "incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt."


is this true?...



justaman

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#1545 - 11/13/04 02:41 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hi JustAMan,



[from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, 1994, commonly referred to as DSM-IV, of the American Psychiatric Association. European countries use the diagnostic criteria of the World Health Organization.]



“An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectation of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to distress or impairment. “



Grandiosity is the hallmark of narcissism. Grandiosity:



“An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)”



Narcissists live in their own fantasy worlds (and react with affront when reality dares to intrude):



“Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love”



You write:





“Are Narcissists pathological liars? I don't know.



“I believe that indications are that they are less, or should that be MORE…..? than truthful especially if they have something to gain by it.



Regards,



Nan

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#1547 - 11/21/04 02:55 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hiya,



Fascinating indeed!



Thank you so much for finding the 'Caveat Emptor' (buyer beware) site. Very interesting!



How are things coming along with your friend?



Take care,



Nan




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#1548 - 11/21/04 06:13 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186


How are things coming along with your friend?


She's a bit down at the moment. Medical problem. Possibly stress related. Plus she's absorbing the reality of p at a gut level and thats tough on the emotions...

re: Caveat Emptor. Bookmark this site http://www.archive.org - The Internet Archive
very useful for retrieving pages that have gone offline..

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#1551 - 11/21/04 06:46 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: recovery]
Dianne E. Offline

Administrator
member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Thanks recovery, I have a busy week coming up getting ready for my open book test. Then I plan to spam the internet with my knowledge and see how many papers I can write each week. Between writing all the books and papers and spamming the internet I should find myself quite busy. I have requested a waiver so I don't have to pay the $100 to get my degree.

Dr. Di

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#1552 - 11/22/04 02:26 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
recovery Offline
member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 204
Hi JAM

I have been reading your posts with interest as I keep thinking that there is too much distinction made between NPD and PPD and it can only cloudy the water and give more places for the P to hide. I also think there is something not quite right about Sam V and his writing.

But I think you have a great way of capturing and analysing the information - long may you post here!

Recovery

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#1553 - 11/22/04 10:40 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
I have just finished reading "Narcissism Revisisted" and have been left feeling more confused. I had come to the conclusion that my husband was a narcissist rather than psycopathic after visiting Vaknin's site, but after reading his theories in depth, I came out with a different conclusion and did not see my husband so clearly as an n. I found Vaknin's writings to be very inconsistant, with many contradictions and with what I judged as incorrect assumptions on many issues, even on minor things like when the average age of menopause occurs.

I do not think that Vaknin is a narcissist although he obviously requires narcissistic supply and wonder whether he is covering his true condition up. I too dislike his pathologising of the victim and am suspicious of his insistence that therapy cannot help the n.

I have concluded that my husband is very likely a psychopath initially and will be more determined over no contact whereas before I was thinking of him being less dangerous and more pitiable, the very thing that dragged me into the relationship and caused me to stay. It has not helped me to have the differences blurred.

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#1554 - 11/23/04 02:59 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Mati]
recovery Offline
member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 204
Mati

you wrote
-------
I have concluded that my husband is very likely a psychopath initially and will be more determined over no contact whereas before I was thinking of him being less dangerous and more pitiable, the very thing that dragged me into the relationship and caused me to stay. It has not helped me to have the differences blurred.
----------

That captures the key factor - thats how we are trapped by the P - because we feel sorry for them. AND that is what Sam V is pushing - pity for the P (N) blame for the victim. I think he is a real threat to progress on "outing" Ps because he blurs the boundaries and creates non-existent ones. I Hope he is not widely listened to.

How are you - Hope you are doing great?
Recovery


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#1555 - 11/23/04 10:15 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: recovery]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
recovery said

"I think he is a real threat to progress on "outing" Ps because he blurs the boundaries and creates non-existent ones. I Hope he is not widely listened to."

Yes I agree but unfortunately think that he is. He makes a joke about staying with an n but put it my mind that it is possible, albeit by pandering to their needs of n supply. I think this man is dangerous. I have gone through impulses to go back and accept everything on his terms despite telling him that if we are to be friends like he requested (to enable him to keep control of me and stop it looking bad that I won't have anything to do with him))then I want him to see a psychologist and be diagnosed and a long course of therapy started (best thing I did to keep him away)

I am progressing all the time thanks but am finding it harder to cope with the alienation of my sons as time goes on and it becomes worse.

I am making arragements to see a good psych. to help me and a counsellor too (will choose the best after consultation)

But I am so pleased to be out of p's orbit and keep up the no contact rule. Divorce proceedings have started. I still get short spells when I start to miss him but I soon make sure that reality kicks in. I will post my divorce statement on the fridge door

Thanks how are you?
Mati

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#1557 - 11/24/04 10:47 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: recovery]
freedom Offline
member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 11
"I also think there is something not quite right about Sam V and his writing."

Could it be that he is a psychopath himself copying what other people are writing and trying to make himself into someone he is not

freedom

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#1558 - 11/24/04 02:48 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Mati]
recovery Offline
member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 204
Hi Matai

I really feel for you as it must be agonising to have your sons believe the P's fantasy view. But they surely will come to the truth in time - then they will need you more than ever, no matter how old they are. I hope you can keep strong until then.

My divorce papers were the best papers I have ever been given - I should have them framed!!

I am really busy at work - usual preXmas deadlines.
Other wise fine. Though I did go back to the woman who lied for my ex to see if she would tell the truth now, but she put the phone down. I hope she does not tell the P as it might start him up. I really hoped that since she had found out some of the truth that her conscience would kick in, but no chance!!

Anyway we'll see waht happens.

Happy thanksgiving to all but especially in the USA


Recovery

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#1560 - 11/26/04 01:58 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hi Km,





"As a victim of a woman, I celebrate with unrestrained glee my ability to degrade women, to humiliate them, to frustrate them, to make them beg for life itself, for they see their (often imagined) relationship with me as life itself. This is why I abstain from sex. This is why I dazzle them with my intellect and charm and wit and knowledge, with unprecedented intrusive interest in their petty, boring, housewivish lives - and then I let go abruptly. At this stage, they are so brittle, so vulnerable that they crash to a million shreds with the crystalline sound of agony."



What a nasty mouthful! Do you have the site from where you got this. I'd be interested in seeing it and reading what else Sam Vakin has to say about this.



Glad to see you are back,



Nan


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#1563 - 11/26/04 11:39 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Amazing. "(A)ll my women refused to have sex with me after a year or two," and yet in the previous post he claims, "This is why I abstain from sex." Which is it? *His women*(!) refusing to sleep with the poor little monster or his maintaining control by refusing to sleep with them? Either way, thank God no one wants to breed with him.

"I NEVER met ANYONE, including real psychos and the retarded, who was actively avoided by women where procreation is concerned." Uh, that's a HUGE generalization.

Pathetic and yet frightening at the same time.

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#1565 - 11/26/04 01:39 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:
"I NEVER met ANYONE, including real psychos and the retarded, who was actively avoided by women where procreation is concerned."
...ROFL



More interesting comments from Mr Brown.

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#1566 - 11/26/04 02:21 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
American Description
Diagnostic Criteria

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

"Now back to business. Jimmie's point about the mislabeling raises an interesting point. There are some similiarties for sure between NPD and anti-social. They are indeed psychological cousins. However, there are some noticeable differences. NPDers do have a conscience and the ability to express remorse. People in the Anti-social classification do not demonstrate the ability to express or feel remorse. There are other differences, but this is key.Sometimes that ability is buried, deep, deep, deep beneath a pile of s--t, but it is there."
comment by T C Brown

Comments?

NPD can have a conscience and express remorse, P never can?

NPD is ammenable (with difficulty!) to therapy, P is not ?

NPD is a subset of fullblown psychopathy - on the same axis but in some respects less extreme? Persistent made this point further up the thread. Not sure, but the more I think about this the more I think she's on the right track...

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#1567 - 11/26/04 02:48 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hi JAM,

Re:American Description Diagnostic Criteria

I am terribly busy and don't have time to peruse the site.

"7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others."

Lacks empathy! Does not have it? Has only a little of it?

Is unwilling...! Will not or cannot?

It seems that many psychiatrists use the ability to feel empathy as a real cut-off point and difference between NPD and PPD. That has been my point of view as well. And now this...

It is easy to understand why tom, dick and harriet are thoroughly confused about NPD and its close cousin PPD.

Nan

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#1568 - 11/27/04 04:10 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Nan]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
One more for luck...

Personality Disorders in the Paranoid-Narcissistic Spectrum,
by Dr. T. O'Connor, Dept of Justice Studies, NC Wesleyan College

..which ties in with Persistents 'spectrum' analysis towards the top of this thread, and my own tentative thoughts that Narcissism can be regarded as a subset of full blown psychopathy.

Excerpt:
Narcissism is a somewhat less severe form of psychopathy...

... Narcissists can rarely be cured, but side effects, associated disorders (such as OCD), pathological lying, and the paranoiac dimensions CAN be modified.


ok... I think I'm through with this topic now...life is too short!!

..whatever... Narcissists and Psychopaths are both nasty pieces of work... It doesnt really matter if you're not sure what you're dealing with. Same advice applies to both. RUN LIKE HELL!!!

... and I'm still confused. The more I think about the personality disordered individual that I have personal knowledge of, the more I see a psychopath (very definitely!!) and NPD in the same individual. Is this possible?... a P with some N bolted on top!!

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#1571 - 05/09/05 06:46 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How did he get the insight to realize he is a psychopath though? I thought their insight was pitiful?

-Delta2477

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#1572 - 05/10/05 03:42 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

How did he get the insight to realize he is a psychopath though? I thought their insight was pitiful?


Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Psychopathy are not the same thing. And I wouldn't like to say what Sam Vaknin's problem is. He thinks he's a 'Narcissist'. Who knows? Certainly not his psychiatrist because he's never been diagnosed.

On the general point, Psychopaths do seem to be less insightful than NPD. They dont self refer for treatment, whereas NPD sometimes (not often) do.

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#1574 - 11/01/05 02:07 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Shelley Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 21
Okay, I'm a new user and I've read through the thread with interest, so now I'll jump in and add my 2 cents:

On the subject of psychopathy, one of the simplest and most accurate descriptions I've ever read sums it up as follows: ". . . impulsive antisocial deviance in the context of emotional and interpersonal detachment." (see Benning, Christopher et al, 2004 in Psychological Assessment. 15(3), Sep 2003, 340-350).

So, one of the defining features of psychopathy is emotional and interpersonal detachment. Ps tend to be high dominance, low anxiety characters. (Remember all the research on electrodermal response in Ps?) This isn't something we usually see in NPD -- they're are not generally emotionally detached.

I would also say that while I can't imagine there being such a thing as a normal level of psychopathy, there is good research evidence that there is such a thing as a normal level of narcissism.

In particular, where narcissism is associated with relatively high self-esteem, "narcissism is (a) inversely related to daily sadness and dispositional depression, (b) inversely related to daily and dispositional loneliness, (c) positively related to daily and dispositional subjective well-being as well as couple well-being, (d) inversely related to daily anxiety, and (e) inversely related to dispositional neuroticism.
(see: Are Normal Narcissists Psychologically Healthy?: Self-Esteem Matters by Sedikides, Rudich, et al, 2004 in Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 87(3), 400-416.)

Having said all that, I would point out that there is good evidence for comorbidity between anti-social personality and the narcissistic, paranoid, borderline, and passive-aggressive personality disorders -- at least in criminal offenders.

See: The co-morbidity of personality disorder and lifetime clinical syndromes in dangerous offenders. (Coid, 2003, in Journal of Forensic Psychiatry & Psychology. 14(2), Sep 2003, 341-366).

So, it isn't our imagination -- there is often significant overlap between NPD and P.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that there is only one expert in psychopathy -- this is inaccurate and I'm sure that Dr. Hare's many students would take exception to the comment. There's a great deal of excellent published research by people who have spent many years studying this stuff -- though most of it is in scientific journals. (This is not to take anything from Dr. Hare -- who has made much of this info accessible).

On a personal note, I would mention that my P ws diagnosed as NPD with anti-social features. However (and this is a point I've made elsewhere), these diagnoses are made on the basis of self-reports and psychometrist observation/assessment. This is incomplete information. (Just ask any of us who have had a P in our life!)

Although there is a decent relationship between self-reports and informant (family mambers) reports, the correlation (at best) is only around .48 -- that means that there's a ton of missing information when it comes to self-reported psychopathy. Researchers should be paying closer attention to family members if they want to get a better handle on all aspects of psychopathy (but then I digress. . . .).

Shelley~

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#1575 - 11/01/05 10:37 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Shelley]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

Although there is a decent relationship between self-reports and informant (family mambers) reports, the correlation (at best) is only around .48 -- that means that there's a ton of missing information when it comes to self-reported psychopathy. Researchers should be paying closer attention to family members if they want to get a better handle on all aspects of psychopathy (but then I digress. . . .).




Digress all you want! Thanks for that. Very interesting. SOme quite deep stuff there which I'll have to chew over at leisure...

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#1576 - 11/01/05 05:53 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
WhiteKnight Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 80
hi JAM, how're things?

since I spend my days with N and P a few feet from me
in "cubical land", I devote a fair bit of
time to wondering about this topic.

what I've focussed on is that these two are strikingly
grandiose.

P seems to be so "to the bone" -- he sails through life
like the title character in Carly Simon's "You're So Vain".

I remember we were talking about one of our favorite
spots -- a bar/hut/dance club on the beach in the Carribean.

since his primary topic is carnal conquests, I mentioned
that "hey P, these girls aren't looking for guys like you
and me, they're looking for millionaires with yachts from
X". he replied "I am a millionaire with a yacht from X",
and I was just bowled over with how convincing he was.
I was able to fall under the spell for a moment.

with N, the grandiosity is skin-deep. his real train of
thought is an open sewer of self loathing, scatological
references and in-your-face homophobia (he's a homosexual).

he goes through a "girl-friend" about every 10 days, and
one of the team rituals is having to listen to a litany
of the latest one's short comings. eventually I became
a bit Irked with this, and challenged him to say one nice
thing about any of the women he's gone out with.

to my Amazement, he had a complete loss of composure,
and I was treated to a hysterical outburst of his
concerns with me. (Projection)

I didn't respect him, I lied to him, I set him up to
fail, blah, blah, blah, for a good minute or so.

he must be hanging on my every word desperate for
Narcissitic Supply which I guess he's not receiving from me.

Ironically, after reading up on N's, I had been deliberately
giving him Narcissitic Supply, just to get along with him.

go figure.

in another amusing incident, he stopped saying "good
morning" to me, and I didn't notice. in retrospect, I
realize that communicating this snub to me was so important
to him that he had to keep escalating his behaviour to
bizarre extremes before I noticed. eventually, things
came to such a pass, that we would meet on the elevator,
I would say "good morning", and he would stand silently,
not looking at me, with a look of ANGUISH so extreme,
it looked like his head was going to explode like
in that cool "Scanners" movie. then, we would both
walk to our area silently, where he would explode into
a spasm of Sociability, saying "good morning" to all
and sundry except me, so I finally got it. ROTFL.

it must be living hell for his self esteem to be so
dependent on me, and I don't even notice.

P doesn't seem to care what I think of him. most of
what I learn about him is PIT gloating about things, or
N dropping info inadvertently -- he's not the sharpest
knife in the drawer.

the main area where P's self esteem depends on me, is that
he seems to genuinely feel that isolating me, and destroying
my relationships with other people is a creative work
of art on his part. if someone is nice to me in his
presence, you can just feel how UNJUST this seems to
him -- he can stew for days in a sniffling, brooding
slow burn after an event like that. the Horror.

anyway, enough of my petty concerns.

thanks for the great posts Shelley, "co-morbidity" is
my new term -- Very Cool.

Vaya con Dios,

-WK


Edited by WhiteKnight (11/02/05 03:07 AM)
_________________________
-- All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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#1577 - 11/02/05 02:28 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: WhiteKnight]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
"hi JAM, how're things? "

Thanks for asking... Hmm. Ill give you the personal physical answer. Still struggling with weight gain since giving up smoking October last year. Ive been a heavy smoker all my adult life and despite that have always had a good appetite. As soon as I stopped smoking I seemed to turn into the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Krall.. or that plant from the Little Shop of Horrors..."FEED MEE!!!"

Apart from that...ok

"anyway, enough of my petty concerns."

Er... dont hold back. Thats exactly the sort of post that I find so useful. Fleshes out the theory with real people. Just what I was hoping for. As Ive found the character of the P I know about rather confusing at times in terms of pure psychopathy as defined by the Hare Checklist. Your and others accounts have clarified certain issues for me.

It does seem to me that an individual can answer to the cassification of 'psychopath' according to the Hare definition and at the same time exhibit a mnumber of characteristics from the definition of NPD. The guy I know about looks like a mix of your descriptions of N & P. Mostly Psychopath ( His wife of 16 years and I have plotted him at about 32 - plus or minus up to 4 points due to uncertainty and lack of info about some things) on the Hare Scale - Yes I know we're not qualified! but if anybody can assess him she can!) with a distinct overlay of some more purely Narcissistic characteristics.

This subject of labelling multi dimensional personality disorders is obviously a problem. It seems to confuse many people, and gives me a headache too.

Personal accounts of psychopathic and narcissistic individuals like yours do help to 'flesh out' the picture.

Ta

JAM


Edited by JustAMan (11/02/05 02:32 AM)

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#1578 - 11/02/05 05:53 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Shelley Offline
member

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 21
Hi WhiteKnight,

What a great description of the emotional lability of your narcissistic friend! Yes, I think that where you want to distinguish the two (NPD and Ps) it has to be around core emotional expression and response.

Hi JustaMan,

There's lots of literature on the question of comorbidity in mental health problems. For example, anxiety disorders have high rates of comorbidity with depression. For mental health researchers, knowing this has lead to a better understanding of things like Panic Disorder. We understand better that depression likely emerges secondary to the anxiety and that if you can treat the anxiety, the depression often lifts.

In terms of what this might mean for NPD and Ps, if I had to take a stab in the dark here (and that's all this is -- pure speculation), I would guess the following:

P is largely a biological/genetic condition probably present from birth. (There's a twin study that is particularly compelling that suggests that the callous-unemotional component of psychopathy is strongly genetic. See Viding et al, Evidence for substantial genetic risk for psychopathy in 7-year olds. In Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry. 46(6), 2005, pp 592-597. A very cool article, if you can get your hands on it.)

NPD is a learned condition, but is perhaps sometimes secondary to some type of biological predisposition toward (social?) anxiety in some. (No good evidence for genetic influence in the development of NPD, but there IS soem evidence that parental permissiveness and authoritariansm is associated -- See Ramsey et al in Self-reported narcissism and perceived parental permissiveness and authoritarianism. In Journal of Genetic Psychology. 157(2), 1996, 227-238).

In some Ps, perhaps narcissism is a learned response --Ps normally (if I can use such a word here) don't care about others or their feelings (callous and unemotional, remember?), but perhaps some Ps come to find the admiration of others especially rewarding? If this is the case, then they would crave it and seek it out at others' expense, but then they might also be emotionally subject to narcissistic injury/hurt when someone doesn't pay attention to them in the way they feel they deserve. (My idea -- to researchers out there, you'll need to cite me if you use it!)

This is speculative, of course. But I haven't seen any good evidence to suggest that NPD is biologically based whereas P IS -- So, my suggestion is plausible -- the condition being that Ps find the admiration of others rewarding and the loss of it aversive.

Of course, I find that my idea fits very well with the Narcissistic P in my own life -- but my personal experience doesn't constitute evidence -- it is just suggestive.)

Whew!

Gotta run for now.

Shelley~

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#1579 - 11/02/05 08:55 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Shelley]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
Thanks Shelley. Very interesting.

especially....

"P is largely a biological/genetic condition probably present from birth. "

"No good evidence for genetic influence in the development of NPD"

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#1582 - 11/03/05 03:12 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
WhiteKnight Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 80
wow JAM, that really sux, giving up smoking and all.

now that you've taken the load off your body, can you
substitute exercise for your nicotene habit? the Dublin marathon
is only 360 short days away!!

today is the first day of the rest of your life!!!

can you get into amateur body-building competition? contrary
to popular misconception, it's VERY mental. calculating
and planning your workouts and your diet, could get you
out of the twinkie binge rut.

even if you never get NEAR the winners circle, it's pretty much
guaranteed Mrs. JAM will LOVE it.

further on the N vs P thing, N seems to be playing from
a static mental model that doesn't seem to have been
updated since adolescence. he never seems to adapt to
new circumstances.

e.g. we're all watching t.v., and I guess a naked female
torso was flashed. we all missed it except N who exclaimed
"was that a female breast"? we're in mixed company,
and I'm guessing at this point we've all seen one, so
there's no response from the group. so, as a conversational
ploy, in desperation, he repeats himself three more times,
with no response from anyone. I guess this was fascinating
stuff when he was thirteen, or maybe in his frat house,
but that's ten years in his past, and he hasn't updated
his paradigm since.

P on the other hand adapts. e.g. VF and I are really into
NLP. since his VF conquest, now so is P. for whatever
reason, V and I spontaneously mirror each other a lot,
and now P winds up mirroring me just to break up the
rapport. P is _very_ smooth about it. PIT also does this
now, though he's clumsier, and can be quite comical at
times.

Best,

-WK


Edited by WhiteKnight (11/03/05 04:46 PM)
_________________________
-- All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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#1583 - 11/03/05 03:41 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: JustAMan]
Shelley Offline
member

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 21
Hi JustaMan,

Interesting viewpont -- but my take on the article would be somewhat different. Certainly I'd agree that psychopathy occurs on a continuum, and I'm not really an advocate of genetic determinism, but I would point out that the effect of genetic influence was extraordinarily high in statistical terms. In addition, subjects with high levels of CU showed absolutely NO influence of shared environment. To me, this was the most striking aspect of the study. Of course, here we're talking about shared environment and not unique environment which tends to have a greater impact on behavior.

Since kids with high Callous-Unemotional characteristics showed no influence of shared environment, they would seem the least likely to benefit from a behavioral/environmental intervention (and it might, as Dr. Hare suggests, turn them into better psychopaths). So, in terms of helping kids, it would seem better to put efforts into dealing with kids with moderate levels of CU -- at least we know that environment has some impact.

Also, it seems to me that Viding makes a huge contribution to the literature in separating the behavioral and emotional components. As I suspected, it is the emotional component that is the kicker for P and it is where researchers need to go to clarify the disorder.

I'd agree that follow-up is a great idea. But longitudinal studies are expensive and, well, they take time. However, since this article was published this year and it generally is a long haul between data collection and publication, I'd guess that by now Dr. Viding has collected (or is in the process of collecting) her follow-up data on the 9 year olds. I'd be curious about how that is going and what her sense is from the data collected so far -- but I suspect she wouldn't want to share that at this point

Shelley~

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#1586 - 11/03/05 06:13 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: WhiteKnight]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
"wow JAM, that really sux, giving up smoking and all.

now that you've taken the load off your body, can you
substitute exercise for your nicotene habit? the Dublin marathon
is only 360 short days away -- times awasting!!!"

Unfortunately Ive always hated running, even at school. I'm tall ( 6'1" ) but have completely the wrong body shape. Exactly the opposite of those Kenyans and Ehtiopians who are so good at it - Ive got a long back and relatively short legs... finding shirts with long enough tails is a problem!

body building does not appeal. Overly developed muscles and an absense of the normal ammount of body fat look ugly to me...

Some of those bodies you see on the front of body building magasines make me feel physically nauseous - I can only look at them for a few seconds - especially the women.

I'd rather spend my spare time reading a book going oout for a walk in the woods - with plenty of stops to examine intersting stuff - or listen to some music. Body building does seem like a relentlessly repetitive and mindless activity. I dont think I could stand the boredom and the feeling of wasted time.

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#1587 - 11/03/05 06:24 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Shelley]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

"Since kids with high Callous-Unemotional characteristics showed no influence of shared environment, they would seem the least likely to benefit from a behavioral/environmental intervention (and it might, as Dr. Hare suggests, turn them into better psychopaths). So, in terms of helping kids, it would seem better to put efforts into dealing with kids with moderate levels of CU -- at least we know that environment has some impact.



It may be wishfull thinking, but I prefer to live in hope. The thought of effectively 'writing off' some kids at an early age gives me the willies. The straw I'm grasping at is the plasticity of the developing brain. The hope that if you get to the psychopathic child when they are young enough something can be done to influence even the most emotionally deficient in a positive direction.

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#1588 - 11/03/05 06:53 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Shelley]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Hi Shelley,

I usually stay out of the NPD and psychopathy debate because between all the conflicting theories from duelling experts, overlapping behavioural characteristics, subsets, and differentiations etc. it gets pretty convoluted. Also, at some level, I personally find it difficult to be clinical about a subject that has caused so much grief for me. I can see why others debate the topic though and I'm glad for that.

This part of your post stood out to me though:

In some Ps, perhaps narcissism is a learned response --Ps normally (if I can use such a word here) don't care about others or their feelings (callous and unemotional, remember?), but perhaps some Ps come to find the admiration of others especially rewarding? If this is the case, then they would crave it and seek it out at others' expense, but then they might also be emotionally subject to narcissistic injury/hurt when someone doesn't pay attention to them in the way they feel they deserve.

My take on Ps seeking out the attention of others (and the injury they may experience when their efforts are unsuccessful) is that it goes back to the profound feelings of rejection many of them felt from their parents (usually the mother it seems). I've seen it in the personality disordered individuals I know and it's VERY pronounced. It has always seemed somewhat odd to me that these otherwise callous individuals show this vulnerability.

Another reason I think is that popularity is socially desirable, a status/power symbol of sorts, and Ps would naturally covet that.

Sylvie

Edited the end of the first para just to clarify it.


Edited by sylvie25 (11/04/05 04:56 AM)

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#1589 - 11/10/05 04:54 PM NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R test [Re: sylvie25]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Here is the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy according to the PCL-R test. If you will look at the criteria as they are clustered in the test you will see that Aggressive Narcissism is a core feature of Psychopathy, but there is more to psychopathy than narcissism. So in essence all psychopaths are narcissistic, but all narcissists are not psychopaths.

There is a link at the bottom of the page for where I got this test.
_________

Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test)

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. The items are as follows:

Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

* Glibness/superficial charm
* Grandiose sense of self-worth
* Pathological lying
* Cunning/manipulative
* Lack of remorse or guilt
* Shallow affect
* Callous/lack of empathy
* Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

* Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
* Parasitic lifestyle
* Poor behavioral controls
* Early behavioral problems
* Lack of realistic, long-term goals
* Impulsivity
* Irresponsibility
* Juvenile delinquency
* Revocation of conditional release
* Continual acceptance antisocial behaviour

Traits not correlated with either factor

* Promiscuous sexual behavior
* Many short-term marital relationships
* Criminal versatility

Score 0 if the trait is absent, 1 if it is possibly or partially present and 2 if it is present. The item scores are summed to yield a total score ranging from 0 to 40 which is then considered to reflect the degree to which they resemble the prototypical psychopath. A score higher than 30 supports a diagnosis of psychopathy. Forensic studies of prison populations have reported average scores of around 22 on PCL-R; control "normal" populations show an average score of around 5.

A note of caution: the test must be administered by a trained mental health practitioner under controlled conditions for it to have any validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath
_________

I hope this was helpful.

Diane1969

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#1590 - 11/11/05 04:10 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: Diane1969]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
In reply to:

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items.



You've got 21 items in the 20 item checklist there Diane!


Dr. Hares 20 item checklist with the standard gloss on each item can be seen 1/3 way down this page

Above it is the checklist of Dr. Hervey Cleckley, whose work on psychopathy preceded and inspired that of Hare and who wrote the first 'modern' book on psychopathy, "The Mask of Sanity' . A major difference is that Cleckley considered 'average or above average intelligence' to be a core factor in defining psychopathy. Most modern researchers do not have anything to say about intelligence and psychopathy. Some Ps are intelligent and some stupid, just as in the nrmal population.

Download "The Mask of Sanity" by Dr. Hervey Cleckley.
(Entire book in PDF format, 1.3Mb, requires Adobe Reader )

This is an important book on the subject but a slightly tough read due to Cleckleys somewhat dense and old fashioned wrting style. Worth persisting with, though.

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#1591 - 11/11/05 11:53 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R test [Re: Diane1969]
WhiteKnight Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 80
hi Dianne,

is the term "narcissism" being used in more that
one way here?

it seems that we all have some level of narcissism, i.e.
an optimistic view of our own qualities, and
indeed require it, for a healthy existance. (term #1)

I think the psycopath takes it to a pathological extreme,
where the worth of others just don't figure into his world-
view.

I think the N's narcissism is superficially the same,
but involves a relationship with an idealized model of
himself which is unreal. (term #2)

he never approaches the model
in this real world, hence his unhappiness, and recedes from
the model as he ages.

just trying to get a handle on this whole N vs P thing...

-WK
_________________________
-- All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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#1592 - 11/12/05 04:14 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: JustAMan]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Dear JustAMan,

not my words, here... I cut and pasted the text from the link. I didn't bother to count the items...

Thanks for the other links.

Diane

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#1593 - 11/12/05 04:18 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: WhiteKnight]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Dear WhiteKnight,

I'm not a psychologist, but I agree with you that there is healthy self-referencing and then there is total self-referencing. Healthly self-referencing doesn't exclude other people from the equation.

Agressive Narcissism traits quoted in the PCL-R test, I think you would agree, have nothing to do with a healthy way of interacting with others.

Diane


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#1594 - 11/13/05 07:50 AM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: Diane1969]
WhiteKnight Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 80
hi Dianne,

yes, I think APD Narcissistic traits are unhealthy!!!! :-}

I seem to have got this static mental model that the N has from Sam Vaknin.
I guess, early on I had taken him for the authority on narcissim, though I
may have to revisit that somewhat. I think he has a rat's nest of web sites,
so you can think your reading something independent of Dr S, but really you're
still with the same source.

he seems to be saying that the N has a static idealized image of what
he should be -- falling in love with the narcissistic reflection. the model
never changes as he matures, or fails to mature.

Vaknin puts it in terms of Freudian child developement "object love",
"self love", stuff like that. Freudian psychology sounds way cool, but I've
never really been able to assimilate it.

this static idealized self that he can never become seems to describe "my" N
to a "T". so I guess I've really run with this understanding of the mental
model of the N. he can become hysterical, aggressive, and paranoid when
his model is threatened. this really seems to differentiate him from "my" P,
who has no such stress point.

we'll figure this out eventually...

-WK
_________________________
-- All that is essential for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

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#1595 - 11/14/05 08:14 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: WhiteKnight]
Diane1969 Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Well, I tend to think of this in terms of attachment disorder and internalized parent object/internalized self object. So, in healthy children the good parent and bad parent are fused in the psyche and internalized as a self-referencing and balance point for the individual... who later on uses this internalized image as a starting point for self awareness and development... for identification and differentiation from the parent/s.

The person who can never internalize either a bad or good parent or a fused version, never has anything to hold onto, never has any inner stability, or even a solid sense of identity. The manipulation, lies, betrayal, lack of emotional effect, lack of guilt or remorse, callousness, glibness, superficiality, narcissim and self-referencing are all death grips on reality for these people. If they ever give up and just try to interact instead of manipulate, a cold rage is the response, because there is nothing inside of them that CAN relate to anyone else, and to let go of the lies and manipulation is to let go of the only reality they know, even if it IS just delusion.

There really is nothing there, except an undifferentiated gelatinous blob of protoplasmic identity that never formed.

That static idealized self that is part of all pathologic narcissism is a mask just like everything else they do. And if you dare pry around the edges, you will find that even they know it is all delusion.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Dee

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#10231 - 10/26/10 03:20 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: Diane1969]
angel Offline
member

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
I have been reading about narcisstic disorders NPD and am unclear to what the differance is ? Is it perhaps that a person with NPD has a little bit more of a consious?
regarding probrably directed more to themselves.. so there just simply more self involved.. more oppotunistic.sounds in fact MORE dangerous re: as far as violence or not?

I want to share a situation that happened to me recently:

I have been dating this man for a few months now and few weeks back we had a large arrguement over some of his coping skills or LACK of them to stressors in his life.

anyway this arguement turned out bad and he left for several days.I heard back from him telling me he wonted to invite me out to the countryside where he had found a nice cabin that we could relax at yet he would need some help money wise to do it that we could go halfers on it.
it was a luxury place he said.. and WE deserve it..

that it was well worth the price and great place.. etc... so I agreed..it was a long time since we had any holiday so this was it and it was to be a short term rental so we could have this place for a few weeks.or more even he said we could even move in together . I thought great I could use a few weeks off I havent had a break in a year. and I thought maybe some stabilty like moving in together would be good for him and I .

He said he wonted to try and repair the realationship from the last fight and he needed to relax.. and a getaway home would be very healing.

I thought it was a great plan so I followed his directions to the remote place and finnaly got there.the odd thing was that he was distant, to me it seemed he was hiding something? it was odd??

something in my soul was saying .. He seemed to play acting and as I caught him many times with a horrible , pained look on his face. My body shivered many times..out of nowhere, and I had this nasue feeling in my gut.

It was late that night and we were in bed, he was trying to well.. get BUSY but something once again said no!

I then decided to ask him point blank if he had CHEATED on me he started to flare up real bad..! and yelling at me said why are you so damn insecure!! why does it always have to be about your jelousy and other women!! this is not about an OTHER WOMAN.

MY sixth sense told me he was lying so call it psychic knowing I went to the bathroom looked in his toiltries case and sure enough profolactics.. my question was answered.

He was caught , I said to him the situation and he admitted he had been with this woman .

I asked him "WHEN" he said just 2 nights ago I was horrified? confused..
I said to him why ASK me out here? how can you do such an act and play with my life and heart ? get me out here try and get busy with me knwoing this ACT that you have done aginast me?

he said "he did it to spite me and get even for the fight we had that I had caused him such pain and sorrow that I deserved to be hurt and to learn a LESSON that this was MY lesson..

So I said to him you PLANNED this week end just to do this then?? he said well I knew
what I was doing and cheating on you would close the book in my mind about you and hurt you at the same time.

I said " but if you were not going to tell me then how can ithurt me" , i found out on my own by seeing the goodies in your case.

it was a set up he said..then he went bolistic he said "stop ruining the #### evening all you ever do is RUIN days and this is another ruined week end!! "I" wanted to have a nice time with you and now you have ruined "my" trip here you F#### B @@@..

ITS ALWAYS ABOUT YOU ...YOU THINK YOUR SO @@@@ right and special to ruin good feelings!!

I said what good feelings the fact that I asked you or found you OUT ..

(all he could repeat was how much I was ruining his life and week end and his antics were getting more agressive..) not once could he ONCE see into his OWN responcibility and actions aganst me and how wrong and sick the PLAN he had against ne was wrong) he just continued talking about his RUINED night and week end.. thenhe started to charcter assasinate me about everyhting...

from my looks to my life, to my family to all he could muster up he was SADISTIC
AND HIS WORDS WHERe LIKE guns..

I was sitting in the chair and he walked to the fridge and as he was behind me he hit me so hard in the head I went flying out of my chair onto the ground.

he said that should teach you to learn a lesson to NOT RUIBGOOD EVENINGS.. you deserve all th [censored] thats coming your way.. you started this by EVEN ASKING ABOUT AND BRINGING UP THE TOPIC OF CHEATING..YOU CANT SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND HAVE A NICE TIME CAN YOU!!!!

I CANT HAVE LOVE IN MY LIFE the minuite i do its taken away.. you took AWAY all my good feelings so yeah I slept with this lady I PLANNED THAT TOO by the way...

i WAS TRYING TO GET UP OFF THE GROUND he said I wasnt hurt that I was a drama queen and that I am also on the ground trying to make him feel something and manipulative by pretending to be HURT..which I was..my lip was split open

but he just kept on I got up he pushed me back down with his hands over my whole face.. and said more horrific things to me.. he did this most of the night and all he would say is that IT WAS MY FAULT...for ruining the night things were going so well??

HIS nite that I should be so lucky to be invited out here and have him cook a nice meal and spend the money on the cabin.. and expensive wine etc..that I was a horrible woman.. to be so UNGRATEFUL to him..and RUIN HIS PLANS and nice INTENTIONS...

he didnt even once see his INVOLVEMENT and his diabolical nature to premeditating the whole scene AND HIS ACT OF infedelity was nothing that he saw it as his RIGHT to cheat on me ..

but all he could comment on was ME my fault..not his..

I said cant you see your actions here.. you have hit me are violent.. he could not respond.. he would just say.. you started it.. you started it... back to me like a game of children name calling back nad forth.. he had no idea of his involvment.. nor would he admitt anything..

latter now he is what is called ALLOPLASTIC .. a term meaning shifting blame in any situation...common with abusers.. and narcissists..

as the night went //on no way to leave.. it was remote area.. dark.. forested.. no phone..

in the middle of nowhere.. I was basically verbally assulted and hurt physically he tried to strangle me... when I said he would ...could go to jail..

he at that point in time got me on the floor and tried to choke me.. and he said "go !!

do it!! I wont to go to jail.. but am smarter than all of them there jail is nothing..it will be a holiday for me..watch"

he watched a movie on tv... was laughing at the movie and acting like noting he did happened.. he was elatted almost at his ability to shut off...drink his beer and watch the screen .

the morning arrived.. and he was in the same terrorising state.. verbally abusive.. hit me with a book upon waking up when I spoke he slandered my words.. or would come up too me towering over me.. like in the posistion to hit me one...

am lucky to be alive..

I got away... with him still saying till the horrific end..

"its all your fault.. your the psycho" and on and on as I began to leave..he was purely convinced of his own words and actions.. that he was a saint and I was the devil.

if there is a devil incarnation he is one..

now my idea is yes in advance I did see some bizarre traits of rather selfish behaviour thtas true.. in various situations with his family.. and me.. and I did see a lack of control , and his in abilty for ACCOUNTABILITY...

but this was something I had not ever dreamed of the seeting PREMEDITATED vengance he saought towards me..with this encounter with this woman...to this me pressing his fragile

buttons of his self worth lack of it.. not giving or taking away his narscisstic supply regarding the PLESANT nite he had planned out...

turned to a movie like horror film in the woods.. so I beleive that the combined psychopathy ..and narcssisim is both there in him.. he is a killer and as he displayed no remorese at all.. NONE... not once did he care anout my life.. not once.. while doing this to me..he was enjoying his power over me his physical strength over me..all night..

as I left he was reading a book in the hot tub.. I tried to make him see his involvement .. and all he did was yell deameaning spitting ..blaming words to me.. and that all of this was to teach me a lesson....

that I was a spoiled woman like child that needed to learn.. so this was his teachings...
he couldnt care one bit about my feeelings , life, or bruised up body.. not at all.

he just sat in that hot tub with a blank look not even flinching.. not even blinking...

I guess he got his nice getaway retreat paid for knwing I sure wasnt going to hang out there with him after his ACTS OF CRUELTY... so knieving, premeditated.. actions.. along with sheer cruel abuse.. and life threatening.. hell with him just calmly sitting there relaxing ..after his horrors to me.. his hands washed.. convinced.. I deserve this..and he is the victim of ME ? so there fore his actions are justified.. as he puts it.
as he sits there in silent , yet content expression on his face.

I left and I have left some of my personal belongings there.. as well as I just wonted to get out I took the necessary articles.. as he sat in the hot tub.. but left alot of stuff still there. my cell phone is off anyway he has no reception there anyways..

what a nitemare.. I see these shows on tv about stuff like this but never in my wilddest dreams would I guess this would happen to me.. he is soooooooo

charming, gorgeous man, brilliant super smart. speaks languges.. so romantic.. great lover!! dotting..when he is in a good mood..

the 2 sides to his personality.. or is his personality the one in the woods..????
out came the truth..

he has drinking issues not a everyday drinker but when he does he cant stop..so at first I thought it was brought on by alchol?? no excuse at all.. BTW

but seeing as thought the next day was the same..it was not the case.. he was only more GLIB.. and unaffected.. acting.. flat lined .. and only caring of his books, movies..and hot tubbing for HIMSELF.at his now expensive all paid out for thanks to ME he has his retreat home...as i left he never even looked my way from his book.

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#10233 - 10/26/10 03:27 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: angel]
angel Offline
member

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
hanging on...


Thank you for the link I am thinking he is prob both.?

But lack of shallow emotions and relentless , sadistic , no remorse what so ever..

leads me to belive the worst.. of him the way and manner in which he went about the whole thing week end escapade.. was so pre meditated.. from his affairs and telling me at the cabin to getting the money out of me BEFORE he told me this .. and when I reacted like any NORMAL human being would in despair and hurt he ..began to destroy me bit by bit verbally..

physically attacking me..and then seeminly nothing to him sitting on the couch afyer a round of physical attack on me and verbal torture..like words.. to break apart anyones world ..to him quietly sitting watching his TV while am on the floor trying to get my head to see straight enough to walk.

So yeah.. I think he is a real treat to society.. Lol .. the balck holes in the eyes..

like he really is a tru predator.. the over exagerated.. charm and overwhelming stance he takes in public and upon meeting new popel they justthink he is a jewel could say nicer things about him... !! whata perfect guy hes so super nice , smart, and what a looker.. so hot etc...

little do they know whats under all that.. its s thin as ice..

wondering if anyone had any thoughts on my Psychopath guy???

all comments are of great support and help. AND ITS ALWAYS GOOD TO KNOW YOUR not alone out there .

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#10234 - 10/26/10 03:29 PM Re: NPD and Psychopathy Diagnostic Criteria PCL-R [Re: angel]
angel Offline
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Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 8
thanks for responding. i agree with the notion that the Psychopath and the Narcissist are on the same continuum. i have some of my own opinions on this continuum, which have been heavily influenced by postings here.

without actually using the terms "psychopath" or "narcissist", maybe we can just conceive of a continuum
bounded by two extremes. the low end is a person who has no apparent defense mechanisms. the true self is just "there", exposed, naked for all to see. the person is honest "to a fault" and overly harshly judgmental of themselves. their thoughts are a direct reflection of their feelings. the only time they may warp the truth is through irrational self-criticism. at the other end of the continuum is a person who has constructed an impenetrable fortress around the true self. reality is continually warped and folded into a strangely contoured plane under the auspices of a bizarre style of dyadic communication and, i suspect, systematic self-delusion. the goal of this strategy is shielding the true self from reality, at all costs. those individuals who make the mistake (through no fault of their own) of getting "close" to this person will suffer as they are unwittingly drawn into the warped reality, as they are also bent and twisted to serve the unrelenting guardian of the true self. that same guardian will cast them aside once they are of no use for protecting the true self. this guardian cannot be reasoned with. it says "if you want it (the true self) you will have to go through me first." none of us mere mortals are a match.

as we move along this continuum, from the high end to low end, we see a growing disconnection between the spoken word and reality, as the relative strength of the true and false selves is inverted. we have chosen to call the
person at the upper end of the continuum a "psychopath." I don't know what to call the person at the lower end (although I have known them).

my posting above was intended to convey that the psychopath, the person who is completely under the rule of the false self, is so disconnected from reality (essentially, he or she is "imprisoned" by the false self) that he/she has no hope of any form of self-reflection that might lead to release. some narcissists do have remarkable insight into their own pathology (like sam vaknin), and i think it is because in such cases the false self, in a manner of speaking, does not have the true self completely imprisoned. the true self escapes from the dungeon periodically to look at the world beyond.

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#10659 - 02/09/11 09:05 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Anonymous]
lisejade Offline
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Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 14
Thank-you Molly! To me, that seemed a very insightful post! My psychopath. husband could be the child you describe. His mother, in my opinion, is personality disordered, perhaps even psychopathic herself. What you said makes sense from the perspective that in my experience they can really hook you before the first legitimate red flag shows up.

The real self inside, imprisoned by the Dragon, is trotted out to sing and dance at the will of the Dragon, to lure and seduce. This would explain the early feelings of genuineness, of true deep connection and beginnings of hope. Pre-red-flag.

This can not last, of course. But by then it's the frog in the water scenario where the water heats up so slowly that the frog is boiled alive before he is able to hop to safety.... The early soul-connection (could it be even stronger, if you are right, because of the desperation of Real Boy to be recognized, loved and set free?)is remembered and so strong because of the 'first impression' being so deeply real and strongly felt.

But alas the Dragon rules. And the rest, therefore, plays out predictably.

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#11305 - 06/28/11 12:45 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Anonymous]
Summer Offline
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Registered: 06/23/11
Posts: 10
I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.
There is a rule of thumb I've learned to use in dealing with my N. mother and the Psychopaths in my life: The narcissist will destroy you if it can bring some attention to themselves. The psychopath will destroy you just because they feel like it at the moment.

That may be pretty simplistic, but it's held true for me so far.

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#11709 - 09/06/11 12:20 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Summer]
Dianne E. Offline

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Here is a good article posted by Starry about Narcisstic traits:

NPD traits

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#11711 - 09/06/11 01:12 AM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Dianne E.]
starry Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 350
Thank you Di.

I hope the article can be of help to people. It certainly helped clarify a few things for me.

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#12580 - 01/24/12 12:52 PM Re: difference between NPD and psychopathy [Re: Anonymous]
Chloe Offline
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Registered: 01/22/12
Posts: 3
Hi, This is all overwhleming to read. I was in a 9 month relationship with a man who I now know to be a psychopath. He lied and wormed his way in to my life and moved in with in a week of dating me. He was like a paracite. All take but could give nothing back emotionally or in any other way. He lack of compassion was terrifying. I am intelligent and highly educated, I have amazing friends and a great job. I never thought I would be taken in by someone like him. He lied compulsivly and was increadibly violent and abusive. He studied me carefully and used my like and passions to establish a false connection between us He knew I loved animals my dog and cats. So made out he loved animals. But, within months of moving in the way he beat my dog it was very clear he did not love animals, then he started to beat me. I thought i was going mad because he always justified beating me and had a demonic like ability to convince me I was in the wrong. He was extemely manipulative and controlling and very nearly destroyed my life and almost lost me my liberty. i thought I was going insane living with him even though I have always been emotionally strong and stable. He was inceadibly sadistic and was all take. It feels unbelieveable. Becausce when I first met him, he was kind, sensitive, generous and supportive. it was like living with two different people. The police were involved in the end and I had to go to court. It was horrific. He also had an amazing ability to con me out of money and my possessions. The court case finally ended on the 2nd week of Janujary this year. So this is all very new and raw to me. Thankfully, all my friends and my work colleagues and employer have supported me all the way.

It ended very badly with the police removing him from my home. I have read that they hoard women, and I have been warned it is likely he will come back. Surely, that cannot be true can it?

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#15284 - 06/05/13 01:56 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: Anonymous]
idiot Offline
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Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 5
Hello! First post here so I hope I'm not making a faux-pas commenting on an old thread like this.

Very interesting thread!The fuzzy boundaries between diagnoses (ASPD, NPD, Psycopath, Psychopath etc) are quite changable depending on where you look for info.

Anyway, I’m only seconding what has already been said but I'd like to post.

I agree Ns and Psychopaths are on a continuum – or at least that all Psychopaths are narcissistic, whereas not all Ns are psychopathic. They both seem to have a black hole at the core of their being they try to fill with an overblown sense of self worth. I see Psychopaths defending their egos a lot and never admitting to responsibility for their wrong doings – as if they’re trying to protect themselves from ‘narcissitic injury’. (Look how much criminal Psychopath’s love to blame the victim, the situation, anything but themselves or tell their victims they’re complaining about nothing, they got off lightly). They both seem desperate to delude themselves about their failings. But Ns seem more desperate – their very psychic being depends on their being adored and respected whereas the Psychopath is less concerned with other people’s perceptions of them unless they’re trying to manipulate.

I’ve been in a relationship with an N and while he was certainly potentially dangerous (impulsive, violent, grandiose and childishly volatile) I never perceived him as actively malicious. His lies and constant re-interpreting of the truth to suit his purposes seemed to be subconscious. He didn’t take any pleasure in lying just to deceive it was just that he had to protect his ego by adapting reality as he went along.
Also, he didn’t seem to have a total absence of fear. Though he was motivated almost entirely by reward he was sometimes sensible enough to be put off by the risk of punishment/negative consequences. Although, most often he was just put off from things that would have involved effort.

I’ve known two Psychopaths (not diagnosed but I’m certain of what they were) and they both seemed genuinely cruel and chilled me in a way the N didn’t. The Psychopaths constantly sought out people to manipulate and toy with for…fun I guess. They lied for the sake of it and spread conflict. The N was a psychic vampire but just wanted ego-sustenance and adoration, not to cause trouble. He was oblivious to the hurt he caused and utterly divorced from the logic and empathy most people navigate by, yet he was more of a sink-hole for love and attention than an active predator.

I’ll make another post with my observations of him/a litany of his faults wink
Not that I demand anyone reads it but the more anecdotal info the better, right?

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#15285 - 06/05/13 02:11 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: idiot]
idiot Offline
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Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 5
This has turned into a long (and I admit cathartic) venting/brain dump. smirk

TL;DR version: I lived with a narcissist, it was an exhausting and brutal experience that has taken time to recover from. While I’m pretty sure he would never be considered a Psychopath and wasn’t malicious for the sake of it, it was bad enough. There was certainly a vacuum at the centre of his being and he sucks the life out of those around him to fill it.

Anyway….if you’ve got time to kill here’s my story.

2 years since I cut my losses and I’m still finding new depths of fear and anger in my feelings toward the N. I’ve certainly moved on and don’t think of him often but I still sometimes find myself puzzling over what happened and trying to understand him – if only to learn how to avoid similar people in future! I sometimes wonder who he’s leeching off and abusing now. I do think he has some potential to mature and learn to respect others but it won’t happen unless he’s forced to and he’s got a very parasitic, responsibility-adverse nature. I saw glimmers of empathy, if not a conscience in him.

However, I’ve had to realise I was basically living with an animated husk of a being, not a real person with a fully integrated personality. It was easy to give him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, to think he could care about others and feel like a ‘normal’ person. Now I see that the only motivating instinct in him, the core of his being was a grandiose sense of self that had to be protected at all costs. He avoided insight and self-knowledge like it was poison – because to him it was. He had such an inflated and unwieldy sense of self worth that he couldn’t afford to have it questioned. He couldn’t let reality and facts pop that bubble.

Sometimes he’d reveal just how skewed his mindset was and it was eerie. He genuinely couldn’t see that whatever he happened to want in any given situation wasn’t always the best option. He didn’t believe other people could have minds, wants, rights if they conflicted with his desires. He was the center of the universe.

He never bought anyone else presents, spent money time or effort on anyone else and would react to any request that he consider anyone else as if it were the greatest most unreasonable imposition. Just bestowing upon you his friendship was the greatest gift ever and you should be grateful! Demanded lifts everywhere, took a day off work every time he was hungover, made up dramatic illnesses that only caused him problems when he conveniently wanted to get out of something. Yet he demanded everyone drop everything and attend to his whims. He never saw this discrepancy, plenty of times he actually told me earnestly that his needs and desires were more important than other peoples! I was expected to be there for him and his emotional needs but if I was ever less than fine and let my feelings show he couldn’t tolerate it. He’d tell me off for bringing him down. I was really upset one day and after a couple of years together he looked at me, confused and angry and asked why he felt sad because I was sad – he’d never experienced empathy before and didn’t understand it! I realised then if he was just experiencing empathy for the first time in his mid 20s I had no chance of ever relating to this alien.

He got thousands out of me in monetary support and gifts and I think genuinely never remembered that he’d had them, he could never accept he owed anyone a debt, people asking him to return goods or loans were just being unreasonable. He’d go through my stuff when I was out, read my diary and find any alcohol I’d hidden from him and drink it. Once I demanded he replace a bottle of wine I’d planned to open that night which he’d found and drunk before I got home. He said he’d get me one when he next went out. I replied with words to the effect: you don’t get to decide when I can or can’t have a drink and you can’t just take everything of mine with no care if you inconvenience me. He genuinely didn’t understand my point of view. He got what he wanted and I was just an annoying, buzzing fly irritating him.
Often when he was doing what he wanted he’d try to spin it as if he were doing it for me, it was always totally transparent and insulting.

To support his overblown ego he believed that everyone he met loved and adored him. When he was forced to accept someone didn’t like him that person became the object of such intense, obsessional hate. I got sick of hearing about this one girl, every day he had to rant about her, just because she didn’t like him and didn’t bother to hide it. I tried to suggest to him that you can’t impress everyone, be grateful for the people who are your friends and ignore the rest but he couldn’t accept it. Everyone had to love him.

Oh and he was obsessed with his looks and terrified of aging. He liked being the young attractive one and freely admitted he didn’t want to be a ‘grown up’.

He put no effort into anything but expected to be applauded. He never accurately evaluated his work, he believed it was perfect and surely anyone who disagreed was jealous or just plain evil. If he got a bad grade at college, the system was wrong. If he got a bad review at work, he quit that job. When I had to work with him he took all the credit and did nothing but preen. His lack of shame about his laziness was staggering.

His narcissitic rages were the most dramatic symptom. When he broke up with a girl (before we were together but when we already shared a house) he seemed ok for a day or so then he ended up lying on the floor rolling around and screaming “why isn’t she upset? Why is she still fine? That heartless [censored] etc”. He couldn’t take the fact she was ok (happy to be rid of him) and not devastated by losing him. She and I both tried to talk him down but had to give up and let him calm down in his own time. The next day he was back to normal and acted like nothing had happened.
If he ever perceived a slight or was frustrated in his desires this really noticeable darkness would cloud over his eyes and he’d become totally irrational. I could actually watch him losing logic and reason putting all his effort into defending his ego, usually by lashing out at those around him. Once the storm had passed however, he’d carry on as if nothing had happened. Or he’d condescendingly forgive me for setting him off.

I have to say he was often violent and belittling to me, broke two locks off our doors (left me to fix them) trying to get to me. Called me an idiot daily (hence the username) and never had anything good to say about my achievements unless we were in public and he wanted to show me off. Then I was a status symbol.
He had little interest in sex until his friends were around, then he’d be all over me and very possessive. Liked me to wear revealing clothes when we went out but I was clearly just an accessory. He was the same with children and animals – liked the idea of having them, as possessions or reflections of himself but had no empathy for them and found them immensely irritating when they actually made demands on him.

All his threats involved withdrawing his attentions – as if he were such a prize! He’d threaten to break up with me over anything, give me the silent treatment. I was largely indifferent by that point and just hoping to one day get the chance to move out and trying to keep up an appearance of caring just to avoid more drama and violence.

His histrionics and constant demands for love and attention while giving me no support in return left me exhausted, after the first year I was pretty much brainwashed and sucked dry. Of money, confidence, motivation. I’m still trying to get my life back on track but it makes it easier to see that I only got so low because of the situation I was in with him – it’s a temporary setback and I can slowly rebuild my career, finances, sense of self.

And after all that, I have to admit we had some good times. It’s just the more I look back the more I realise when I thought we were experiencing stuff together, he saw me as just an inanimate accessory, a prop while he was taking centre stage and performing for everyone’s applause. I was just a source of ego-fuel and money for him. As far as I know he still has the same group of friends (all smart, likable guys I respect) who seem able to tolerate him. I think I could have still been having a laugh with him as a casual friend or colleague it was only when I became his main source of ego-support and shared a house with him that I saw the real N.

Oh, I must also add that he was a horribly racist, sexist bigot. At first I thought he was being ‘ironically racist’ and it was a fratboyish thing he’d grow out of (I know, I know), but no. He just hates women and other races. That’s something I can’t forgive or understand.

Thanks to anyone who read this far – I know I got off lightly compared to many and I’m not particularly bitter or hurt despite how I may sound! I’m actually increasingly positive and determined never to fall for someone like the N again.

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#15288 - 06/05/13 03:32 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: idiot]
crocodile Offline
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Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 329
Quote:
I’ve been in a relationship with an N and while he was certainly potentially dangerous (impulsive, violent, grandiose and childishly volatile) I never perceived him as actively malicious.

I've got a family member who's an N (not a strong one but still) and that seems to be a protective mechanism - you pump your ego on steroids because you were devalued by others while growing up and the only person that would tell you you're a great guy was yourself. Ns are annoying, arrogant, drive you mad while in a relationship with them but they are totally reformable if they finally get some motivation for it (read: get kicked in the ass). They also are capable of empathy, love and other normal human emotions, they just have a protective mechanism that hides them (emotions are a vulnerability as we all here know). I've seen it with this person - he changed a lot when confronted with life and straightened up by friends and family members for acting like a jerk. Psychopath is nothing like this. Psychopath is a narcisst internally but often can hide it very well and often appear humble, while N is more about showing how great his is to the world around him and subconsciously being afraid what happens when somebody discovers the truth. At least that's my (limited to the sample of 2) experience.

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#15294 - 06/07/13 12:12 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: crocodile]
idiot Offline
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Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 5
I agree, crocodile, the Psychopath is a narcissist who doesn't depend on other people to validate their ego. Whereas the N is totally dependant on approval/adoration/attention.

The N I lived with came from a very privileged background and was ridiculously over-valued by his family - he could do no wrong and was constantly praised and I think that's where his problems stemmed from. Everything they created, including their children was perfect. He also never seemed to have reconciled to the birth of his younger sibling, never accepted them. I think as a 'Little Emperor' it was a big psychic wound to no longer be the sole centre of their universe as he believed he ought to be.

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#16211 - 01/12/14 01:39 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: Anonymous]
Frank Offline
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Registered: 01/12/14
Posts: 1
Being deaf and my daugther engaged to a Narcissist I started to do some research.

One thing that don't seemed to come into consideration is the cause behind Narcisstic disorder and Psychopath.

The major difference with regard to above is that it IS possible that someone can be a narcissist due to childhood circumstances and upbringing but that is not the case with a Psychopath.

With my daughter's fiance his dad kept the family away from the "bad apples" part of their family but it appear to have a TOOOOOOO much effect where the children (4 of them) all think they are superiour to others. (instead than just the bad family)

Added to the mix is a mother that will side with one child in a fight and tell him he is correct etc and the others wrong, but do that with each of them in turn so they learned that they can't be wrong and is always correct.

Coupled with their huge and powerful build their whole self-esteem become scewed and narcisstic. (They act the same as their brother but he totally mess up my daughter and can be a danger. Strange enough all of them, from father to sons, capitulate to their strong wifes but my daughter is soft, unlike his guy's previous wife that many times let him sleep outside)

The information I found that convince me (so far) he is narcisstic and not sociopatic is as follows.

A Narcissist will let you know up front what they’re about. They will tell you grandiose stories of themselves of either their accomplishments (real or fake) or of their associations with important people (real or fake). They generally do not tell these stories for any other gain than to hear praises. They have an unquenchable desire to be admired, worshiped, and adulated with no real gain from those that respond to them in this way other than to feed their own ego. They need to be the center of attention at all times in any social gathering.

A Psychopath will NOT let you know up front what they are about, because they wear a mask to hide their true identity. They will tell you grandiose stories of themselves of either their accomplishments (real or fake, but mostly fake) or of their associations with important people (real or fake, but mostly fake). They generally tell these stories to appear as a “good person” to gain trust and as a cover-up for their ulterior motives. They have the same unquenchable desires as the Narcissist as a result of the power and control they gain over their victims. They do not care to be the center of attention at all times in any social gathering unless doing so promises to earn them more unsuspecting victims.

Here’s a few more brief distinguishing characteristics:

A Narcissist can have a conscious, and will sometimes hurt others unintentionally. A Psychopath has no conscious whatsoever, nor do they have any remorse for hurting others intentionally.

A Narcissist can be constructive. A Psychopath is always destructive.

A Narcissist’s world can be built by their own hands. A Psychopath prefers their world to be built by someone else’s hands.

A Narcissist is self-deceptive. A Psychopath is socially deceptive.

A Narcissist needs admirers. A Psychopath needs victims.

A Narcissist needs to be adulated to appease their insecurities and fragile ego. A Psychopath needs to be adulated to appease their ulterior motives.

A Narcissist lacks empathy in the form of belittling, name-calling, and defaming another’s character. A Psychopath lacks empathy in a criminal or physically violent way.

A Narcissist accepts who they are but exploits themselves in a grandiose manner. A Psychopath pretends to be someone who they are not to hide their hidden agendas

The psychopath has no conscience nor normal emotions.

Psychopaths and narcissists have widely differing intentions that manifest in similar behaviors.

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#16213 - 01/13/14 05:55 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: Frank]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Frank, welcome to our community. Many thanks for the excellent on point observations you have.

How is your daughter with him, does she see what he is?

Di

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#16230 - 01/17/14 01:45 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: Frank]
helpmesurvive Offline
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Registered: 01/02/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Himalayas
Hi Frank,

Thank you for this post.

I have also started doing research on psychopathy and narcissism over the last couple of months.

I found the list helpful.

I want to add that according to one of the most prominent theories about Psychopathy by Robert Hare, narcissism is only one of many traits of psychopathy.

The full list of these traits aka Hare Checklist, is on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

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#16231 - 01/17/14 03:25 PM Re: Difference between Narcisstic PD and Psychopathy [Re: helpmesurvive]
helpmesurvive Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/14
Posts: 28
Loc: Himalayas
Originally Posted By: Dianne E.
Here is a good article posted by Starry about Narcisstic traits:

NPD traits


Great article!

I've got a couple of the traits, but only few.

Omg that's my father there covering the whole lot!!!!!!!!!!

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