I would like to understand what kind of basis is being used to evaluate if a person is truly involved with a Psychopath? There are many bad marriages, there are two sides to each story. It would be interesting to take a look based on Dr. Hare's list/criteria. Perhaps giving us direct examples based on this criteria and how this all took place and what happened.

The perspective of the victim is very important to understand. Sadly the victim is all alone looking at pure evil. It is something we need to name and examine.

Superficial Charm? Might that be a place to start? The psychopath I know is the most charming person I have ever met, yet his charm has never sustained a single altrusitic deed, in the 30 years I have known him. His charm is a tool which serves only his selfish intents. People on the periphery of his life may never find him out because they are not around long enough to see what comes of the seeds he sows. And even those who are may buy the psychopath's illusion that he is the victim of his true victims. The psychopath's charm is his cover. And it is extremely effective. People are much more swayed by their impressions than they are by facts. Most people will let charm sway their opinion every time.

This is an excellent topic Di. I'd like to share my own experience here soon and hear what others have to say as well.

In this post I'd like to share something that happened today. I started a course of short term therapy for help and support in taking the next steps in my recovery. I went back to the therapist that I originally saw when I first left my Psychopath; a time where I felt like I was losing my mind with the pain, despair, confusion, racing thoughts, fear, and all the horror and PTSD that survivors experience when they first leave their Psychopath. I was fortunate enough at that time to find someone who understood Psychopathy. After meeting with me several times and hearing my stories, it was she that first told me he was a very dangerous man and probably a Psychopath. She told me she feared for my life. She helped me, over the next months to get back on my feet, to focus on priorities, and to not go back to him. She helped me get grounded in reality again, bit by bit. It took a long time.

Today she saw me with some recovery, more clear headed, calmer, not brainwashed anymore, and not living in terror and not wondering anymore how I would survive. She told me how different I looked and sounded, and how afraid she was for me back then. She asked me if I realized how far I had come. I saw through her eyes how far I have come and how hard I have fought to recover. I told her about this forum and how much it had helped, and about reading Dr. Hare's book. Being with her today and talking again was like touching the past; and remembering the horror up close for a few minutes.

I guess the first part of my "How can you tell" story was that wise, kind and honest therapist telling me back then that she thought he was a Psychopath. It was a wake up call. Part of me didn't agree with her then since I still had feelings for him although I hated him too. I wholeheartedly agree with her now.

NeverTheSame:
Congratulations on your progress, your post is an inspiration.
-Leti

Dianne, I misread your post. I thought you were suggesting that we discuss Dr. Hare's diagnostic criteria. Reading it, again, I realize you were suggesting that we discuss our experiences through the lens of those criteria.

kris

NeverTheSame, But better and better, and maybe wiser than ever. Hug! kris

Lying for example. A person might tell a new prospective mate that they sang in a local talent contest and placed third. It may be a lie, like letting one know they sing well enough to be in a contest, but two others sang better. Like building up the product they are trying to sell. It may be true, told, and left alone.

A psychopath will tell the prospective mate that they sang in the contest on a certain day, certain time, very publicized contest. What clothes they wore, how nervous they were to be in front of a crowd. That they sang like a songbird, the audience loved it, standing ovation. That they thought it was certainly a winning performance. Unfortunately, placed second.

Yet, only because the winner had nicer clothes, better equipment and had made a career out of entering talent contests. The winner's voice was "okay", nothing fantastic in their opinion. It was the "show" that captured the audience and the judges. Had the p had nicer clothes, better equipment and more experience, they would have won for certain.

The p lying part? The contest never existed. Or it was at a family reunion and everybody, even the babies were grabbing any instrument and belting out a tune. Or the p telling the story never was in the contest at all, but went and observed and fantasized about how it would have turned out, had they been in it. The fantasy and the lie can take many turns, be told many ways, with a p usually very detailed ways.

The listener of the story would have no real reason to doubt it. They were not there. They might even feel sympathy for the p and tell them that they will buy them a wonderful outfit for "next time", or that they are the best singer they ever heard in their life.

Now you have two people buying into a lie. The one who tells it, the one who naively believed it because it sounds so very true, so very real.

P's tell lies to impress, to avoid problems, to get out of something they have done, to look like someone they are not, to make others look bad and just because they can. Sometimes just for the thrill of getting something over on someone.

Yes, you are right. There are two sides to any marriage. In a marriage to a psychopath their side is the lying one. The spouse's side is the one who believe's.

This is my take on the part of criteria about psychopath lying. I hope I understood your post right and replied in context of the question. It will be very interesting to read the replies of others also. I have already learned some things by those that have replied. Thank you.

Laura

operalover, I have to say that part of your criteria makes me nervous.

"Also, the person claims to have been victimized by so many people that they carry little
or no responsibility for their own current problems - there is always an "explanation.""

I think therapists tend to look for this "red flag", and while it is may be a reliable indicator
of psychopathy, or personality disorder, it CAN BE completely unreliable, as well.
Remember that a person who believes there is a boogey man in his closet may either be a
paranoid, or a person who has a boogey man, in his closet.

I know there are people whose lives have been formed, in such a way, that the purpose
which enfolds through them, is marked by a struggle with forces of evil, as they act
through people here on earth. The content of the purpose may be to learn about these
forces, and add something to the body of wisdom regarding them.

This is part of the short-sightedness I see as a problem in the model of therapeutic
wisdom. Through the therapeutic model, one views people as if the norm is a happy,
relatively uncomplicated life. Thus, chronic problems are a symptom of something wrong
with the client. The truth is, chronic problems may be the unfolding of the client's karma
or destiny.

The therapeutic model views people through the eyes of this world only. As if this all
there is. But it is impossible to understand the full meaning of a human life by looking
only with this limited sight. And the worse thing is, a person's real goodness and strength
may be interpreted as pathology, when viewed through such a short-sighted lens.

I also do not believe that self-reported “chronic victimization” is one of Dr. Hare’s
criteria.

Yes, it does. Thanks.

Kris, operalover

How are you doing? Good I hope! A little story regarding victimization of the p.

Its 1995. We are in the sales office, ready to sign loan papers for the new home. The salesman tells us that the p cannot be on the loan, do we still want to buy the home? We were packed and ready to move! I ask why. He explains that the p's credit has some rough spots, nothing major. I ask him what? He tells us a few debts unpaid, for example one to the local phone company for $325. He leaves the room for us to discuss this.

The p's explanation? "Remember when I lived with (blank), and I got sick of her crap and left her? Well, I walked to a pay phone, called the phone company and had the service shut off as it was in my name. Her new boyfriend called the phone company, told them he was me and had it turned back on. They moved and skipped out on the bill".

I told him to get ahold of the phone company and straighten it out, that if they were going to shut off service by phone, then that was good enough, no debt should have been reported. He said he would. The salesman came back in, I signed the loan papers (alone!), and the house was in my name only. Which is why only I had to file bankruptcy.

Fastforward a few weeks. I ask him if he called the phone company yet. Yes, he had. What did they say? "Well, babe, since that took place 4 years ago, it looks like I have to pay the bill, because there is a 2 year Statute of Limitation to dispute debt. Besides, how can I prove it wasn't me that called back and had it turned back on?"

2002 - A friend of mine, (and a long time ago the p's friend also) calls me to go out for a while. We do. He comes to my place after to visit for a while. When he gets ready to leave, I walk him to the door. I said, "you hung out with (the p) when he was living with that woman (blank) didn't you?" "Yes, why?" "Well, he told me that he left her and shut off her phone service and that is why he couldn't be on the home loan. Is that true?" "NO. NO WAY. She kicked him out!" "What?!!! She kicked him out? Why?" "Because she wanted love and he wanted money. Freeloader."

"Well, he said she ran around on him while he took care of her baby all the time. That she would be gone at night, almost all night and he did the cooking, cleaning, babysitting, etc. and that she did not have a job." "As usual, he lied Laura. She was a stripper. She worked nights. Yes, he took care of her baby, and cleaned and cooked. But he expected her to support him, not the other way around. Freeloader."

This friend was in our marriage the entire 8 years. I had ample opportunity to ask him about that situation. But I believed the p because he blamed the other woman so well, so very well. It all sounded reasonable to me.

So even with a possible witness to his lies, he banked on the fact that I would never suspect, question, validate or find out. And he was right.

Laura

Oh the lies, the lies, the LIES!!! Laura, much in your post brings back memories. The p in my life lied in much the same way, in the face of events and against the chance that i would ask someone who knew him before, or who had heard another version of the story, or knew the actual facts... they are bold, BOLD liars. and that has to be one of the most prevalant red flags about them. memory of sitting in a real estate office and him telling me not to tell the broker his name, because he (p)had a "reputation"... and why did i not have the presence of mind nor nerve to ask for clarification at that moment... i still don't know exactly what he was referring to... and never will... but i am learning and accepting that the only fact that matters is that he did lie, so damagingly, with such nerve and skill... and in the face of such risks. And THAT fact of his habitual lying is the only truth i really need to know now.
-Leti

Leti,

I am thinking now about this lying thing being the main topic of discussion. It has dawned on me that the psychopath who lies actually covers a lot of the other criteria. Kind of like a spin-off of lying.

For example: Shallow effect, lack of empathy, no remorse, without conscience, failure to learn from mistakes-only learns to be more circumspect next time.

It is shallow to lie. It is easy to lie. It is hard to tell the truth, especially when it will bring trouble or ill will towards the liar. It shows a blatant lack of empathy to lie to another, as empathy is to put yourself in anothers shoes. To lie is to stay in your own shoes and not give a hoot what it feels like to be lied to. How can anyone feel remorse over a lie if they continue to lie? And lie, and lie, and lie? Obviously if they felt remorse at the first lie, it would make it harder, not easier to do it agian. Failure to learn from mistakes...be more circumspect next time...usually when someone lies they "feel" bad, guilty, ashamed. The psychopath feels none of those things, but does think in their own mind that they almost got caught, so they lie better each time. More detailed, more realistic.

What I am trying to say here, is that some of the criteria on psychopaths, although each one has an individual meaning in relation to the psychopath, could be put under one heading- LIAR. Its like is a LIAR all those other things, or do all those other things make one a LIAR?

For a better way of saying this, some people lie once in a while. But they have empathy, remorse, regret, a conscience, all things p's do not have. That is why they lie "once in a while", not every time they open their mouth.

But those without empathy, remorse, regret, a conscience are psychopaths and they do lie every time they open their mouth.

I could tell my p was lying, although I did not act on it much of the time. How could I tell? He lied every time his lips moved. That sure kills the theories out there about how to detect a liar, huh? Like watch for body language, eye movement, fluctuating voice tone, etc. I was lucky, all I had to do was watch his lips move!

Laura

Laura,
It makes alot of sense how you tied the other p characteristics to a habitual liar.
I wished a hundred times that I could have been a human lie detector. I very seldom could detect them. I would guess that I found out or detected about 2-3 lies per week, about things that were important to me. And who knows what of the rest that he said were lies. What was hard for me was that he was so skillfull at mixing truth into his lies. He created a maze of deception that I was always trying to get out of, and running into the walls of his lies. Lies about his past, lies about our present, lies about the future. It was like untangling a really big, horrendous knot. After sacrificing my own emotional and mental health to try and solve this puzzle of lies and truths intermixed, I have finally said, "I give up," put down the knot, and walked away from it. When that stinky old knot rolls back toward me, I ignore it, and walk farther away. The thing that I believe was most damaging to me was being subjected to his put downs and verbal abuse about me being suspicious and lacking trust. In a lucid moment, at the top of my lungs, I told him and a therapist that I would have to be "brain f**king dead" to trust him anymore. Guess who looked like the crazy one?
It took me another year to let go. And I don't know if I ever really would have if he hadn't walked out the last time.
It was such a path of pain, and is a mystery to me why I walked it. There were other paths available. Why I chose him is beyond me.
And all the clues to detecting a liar, were nearly useless with him. He was that good at it. Once or twice he talked about other individuals who were not skilled liars, and he said what they needed to do to be better (another red flag ignored). He simply could not be trusted.
Take Care,
Leti
PS I will be away again for a few days.

Leti,

Mine told me for 2 weeks by phone, during a separation, that his El Camino was "broke down" and he had been getting rides from coworkers and family and cab drivers to go to work. At the end of the 2 weeks, it was tax time. April 13, 2001. He was to come to "our" apt. and I would do our taxes. We were on the phone discussing when he would be there, I had not seen him for a month at this point. He told me he had something to tell me that would make me very mad, but had nothing to do with another woman. He then tells me that he bought a 2001 Honda Shadow VLX. A brand new motorcycle, while I'm amidst a bankruptcy! When did he buy it? Mid-March, PRIOR to us speaking that 2 weeks on the phone. So all that time his El Camino was broke down and he was getting rides? LIE. And I still let him come home!

The story about buying the home and the ex girlfriend who was a stripper? Got by with that one forever. Only found out after he left.

The whole marriage was a lie. That makes me very sick at my stomach. All the "I love you's, you mean the world to me, I love you more than life itself", on and on ALL lies!!!

He is a horrible, awful, cruel, cold hearted p. And not real bright. It was 8 years of his life he spent living a lie. Just for financial gain. I'd rather be sleeping on a sidewalk than living a lie. But with a psychopath, they can lie anywhere, so if they find a good place to lie, why not stay?

Talk to you when you get back.
Laura

LYING. That is something my Psychopath was especially adept at doing. I had no clue he was lying at all. His demeanor was sincere, "look you in the eye" type conversations. His act was one of high morals, integrity, dependability. Actually the opposite was true. He was so articulate and charismatic he could have sold you the Brooklyn Bridge without batting an eye. He looked like the "Marlborough Man" on the old cigarette advertisment, good looking and self assured. He was actually not a man but a monster.

His lies included education (multiple degrees NOT), owning a chain of jewelry stores, lying about past relationships, never ever paying income taxes of any kind, lies about health, past criminal record, lies about who owned his house, his mother's house, lies about his family members
(one example is he told me his sister had AIDS). Almost all of the lies I found out about after I left him. That was so bewildering. It was as if he'd never existed at all. It was all based on lies. On top of that, the extreme jealousy which started leading to violence was explained away as my fault. I began to question even myself and my own motives. It was NEVER my fault. The problem was HE IS A PSYCHOPATH.

neverthesame,

"It was NEVER my fault. The problem was HE IS A PSYCHOPATH."

Thank you! The last few days I had been doubting my diagnosis of my ex. You brought home the fact that he too IS A PSYCHOPATH! I needed that.

Like I said before on this forum, how can it be the tellers fault if the bank is robbed? The teller may scream, cry, hit the panic button, threaten, beg, plead, run for her/his life, but it was never, ever her/his fault. The teller was just "there."

No matter the outcome, no matter what was said and done, it will always, always be the bank robbers fault. Period.

Laura

operalover,

Thank you. I expected to hear from you on that. As I said before, you are my psychopath detector. You'd be worth a million at a retail outlet! I thought sociopath and psychopath were the same thing? In "High Risk: Children Without a Conscience", it mentions a diagnosed psychopath that faked "multiple personality disorder" to avoid culpability for a vicious crime. He got by with it until a street wise police officer demanded another psychiatric opinion. The psychopath was not able to con that psychiatrist.

In December of 2000, the p left me while I was at the doctor. He went all over this State writing bad checks. You know this story. He landed in a local hospital that night (unbeknownst to me). During a conversation with him 2 days later, by phone, he told me that they could find no reason for his "head trauma" that he had been admitted for 2 days earlier, so put him under the care of a psychiatrist. Then he tells me, "he (the Dr.) thinks I had a seizure caused by stress, or memory loss, or amnesia. He even thinks it might be multiple personality disorder. That would explain why you think I am one person at home, another when I walk out the door, huh, Babe?" Now, this same lunatic (may I say that here without offending anyone?) also told me that he was "chloraformed, hit on the head and our checkbook stolen." All this crap in the same conversation.

I remember thinking, "Thank God they sent a psychiatrist to this guy! He needs one BAD!" Was he really hit on the head? Who knows. I didn't go to the hospital. He said he had a very large lump between his eyes. By the time I actually saw him it was 3 weeks later. No lump.

He left the apt. in old jeans, shirt, old winter coat. Raggedy looking. He bought with hot checks: Jeans, Western shirt, Cowboy boots, cassette tapes (had no stereo, just an empty hole in El Camino), a flashlight and a blanket. Also electronics, never found that though. I think he went gambling, lost money, hit himself in the head, drove to the hospital disoriented, so that I would sympathize. When he called me the next day and left a "I'm sorry, I love you" message, I did not call him at the hospital. I did the next day. By then he had to excelerate his "story" and make it so weird, so "out there", that I would be getting hit with crap from all sides and not know which end was up. Sympathy didn't work, he had to go to extreme drama.

Its like, okay, I left a message, love you, hit on head, head trauma, possible concussion, she didn't call me, what now? Okay, I'll invent three or four psychiatric problems and by the time she finds out that I don't fit the criteria for any of them, that will buy me months, maybe years, to use her/con her/abuse her mind some more. Yeah, thats what I'll do.

Heck! I should have had all the things he claimed to have, just from living with the darn psychopath! It took several personalities to keep up with his "one."

Thanks for the validation. I guess the reason I doubt sometimes that he is a psychopath is because I didn't see it for a long, long time in the marriage, and I am assuming that he has reverted back to looking "normal" to her. Which I cannot understand because he had gotten so pathetic, so "out there" mentally by the end, I can't imagine he leveled out and became "normal." But psychopaths can do that too, can't they?

Laura

No Laura, in my view absolutely not. Not until they hit the wall at full speed, and admit that they and only they destroyed themselves, with no mitigating factors at all. He reminds me very much of my son who can rationalise the most preposterous bulls--t in his own favour. A normal disaster isn't enough- that will end up as having been your fault- or someone elses (usually yours though). Here's a funny idea. Can you imagine that you pulled some stunt like writing a bad check for a pair of snakeskin cowboy boots, or used his credit card to buy a titanium, gold plated frisbee or, worse, something that you didn't really need- and then further imagine him honestly questioning you, in some confusion, as to how these charges might have been run up? Just think of how impossible the scenario is.

Common sense is often ahead of science. Science can't teach a woman to bake the best apple pie in town. She does so because she is, in her way, a genius. And all science can do is try to figure out what she knows and how she knows it. Science's problem here is to figure out the technical term for assh--e. That's not entirely trivial. A psychiatrist in a US court recently testified that some would be assassin - I forget of who- was a "classic nutter".

Your guy is certainly still out there up to bulls--t, cornering the market in snakeskin underpants and titanium frisbees. Obviously it is very very hard for you because you wanted him with you,and I think that you do blame yourself. You are having visible "waves", and they do you credit. I would guess there is a very good chance that you will have him land on your doorstep again because the bad penny always turns up. And he might come in crying, and he might be weeping about how stupid he has been....... and then just listen, because he will end up telling you whose fault it was. And that's the moment to throw him out.This might be a few years down the line, so do your best for yourself now.

Regards

BonnyR, clap, clap...kris

BonnyR,

That is what I am thinking, hoping for. He did the same thing in 1992, ran from a woman, debt. He got arrested for the debt in 1993 after we married. He may have ran from the Army and that may be why the Court Martial. I wonder why he doesn't list "track star" as his accomplishments? He did say he was a football hero in high school.

He also told me once, "I can survive anywhere. I do not need the things that most people would require to survive. The Army taught us how to survive with only ourself to depend on, no food, bed, cover." He lied. He will always "need" someone to survive. He is a sponge, a mooch, a freeloader. How is that surviving on your own with nothing? Only in that he provides "nothing", they provide his needs. Okay, he told the truth about that one!

Many people have told me he'll be back or that he is "watching me" from afar. I can't imagine how you "go back" after what he has done. There are so many women to con in this world, he can go on doing it to eternity. If I won the lottery, yes, he would be back. He would claim amnesia for all the time he was gone.

Not to worry, I would claim amnesia too. I would say, "Who are you? I do not recognize you. Get away or I will call the police." Yes, he is still up to BS. He was before me, during me. I even said myself that a zebra does not change its stripes, nor a horse its colors. I must believe in my own words.

The "blame" towards me comes mostly from the rage towards the p. He "hung up the phone" and I wasn't done talking. And, as I have said here, no one, and I mean no one in the world, will hurt my son like he did and whistle dixie on down the road. One thing is for certain, he has got to be a little on edge sometimes. He has to know that I will tell all about him and wonder when I too, may "come back."

As well he should.

Thanks. Good post.

Laura

operalover,

Thanks for explaining. Yes, he is both. Like I told BonnyR, I must remember this. He did not stop his evil ways because he left me. He left me like he did, not normally i.e. I want a divorce, but abandon. It takes evil to do what he did during the marriage. If he could not stop practicing evil during, he will not stop after. He has only changed his ways to practice evil on her. By changed his ways I mean became what she wants him to be. His hair, clothes, demeanor, actions, lies. Whatever he has to do to mesh to her.

He did hurt/destroy me the worst so far. All the others he conned one or two times and left it alone. Some he did not con at all and they think the sun rises and sets in him. As I have read, not all psychopaths show their evil side to everyone. So, to not show his evil side he will have to flit from relationship to relationship or stop being evil to maintain a long term relationship. He is not capable of that, so he will be "flitting."

He wanted to be me, and why not? Obviously even he does not want to be him!

Thanks. Laura

operalover wrote:

"A psychopath is also sociopathic in that s/he lies, cheats, steals, etc. But their motive is not merely to scam and con. Their motive is to make sure someone is hurt and destroyed in the process. It's all about hurting people."

Thanks for putting this is such concise terms. This is the exact point that has been the stopper for me. My mind just stops at this concept. I know the diagnosis. I know the reality. And my mind still stops at the hurt and destroy part. This is my challenge in healing. I want so much to be able to be comfortable and ok with the reality and I'm not. That someone (the P) is out in the world at this moment raging and putting much energy into me in this way. Combine that with the family of origin abandonment and I have no ground. That is the psychopath's reward. They take someone with no strong ground and then then give a false sense of caring and understanding and sharing. And then they say "gotcha".
Then the groundless person (me) is once again back to the discarded, mocked, no self esteem place. Because every single time, the way the P has constructed the ties of family and finances.....everything is at his advantage. At the end of every battle there is another waiting. And I'm sure that the P will continue this because he has allies and money to do it. And he enjoys it.

Yes ol, these are definitely old tapes. The P mocked me. It would drive me wild. Discarded me? For sure. When he finally achieved financial independence and success and didn't need to welch off me. No self esteem. This comes and goes. What I think has reactivated me is my trying out my family of orgin for help after decades of never going there. In a weak moment. Under duress. I hate that I put myself in that situation. The reverberations from that are really behind my feelings of powerlessness and nothingness at the present time.

Cherie, I just want you to know that you are not nothing. You are really something. Your contributions here have shown you for who you are. You are really neat person. Really, really cool.

kris

Thanks kris (smiling) That is really good to hear!.

Love,
Cherie

Operalover and Cherie,

Operalover said it real well, about rejection. It made me think of some people that are in my life for years and years now. Yes, mostly men, some I loved, some I lived with, some a good friend. They too knew me pretty well, especially the ones I loved and/or lived with. After the relationship was over and we both moved on to others, we stayed friends. Also, some just friends still as always.

Point is, they are still there. They see me for who, what I am, good and bad, and stuck around anyway. They look at the whole picture, not just parts of it. The p saw the same good, but only to take, to destroy. He was jealous of qualities I had that he never would. He had to mimic and try to be a decent person, it came natural to me. These other people are not jealous of me, they appreciate my qualities, don't always like them, but understand that I am a whole package and stay involved in my life anyway. They are normal minded people. They also are not looking to take on any of my traits. They have their own traits. They have things I admire about them, and vice-versa. They will never reject/abandon me.

Yes, operalover is very, very right. Only people who despise their own self reject. They hate us for what they can never be, not ever. They tried so hard to be like us and failed because it was an act. For basically good people it is natural, no need to act. Plus, the p gets tired of acting. Sometimes they just want to be what they are-a psychopath. So they must reject.

I relate being abandoned by my p as being left by the scum of the earth. If the scum of the earth leaves me, then what does that make me? As I get stronger each day, I realize it makes me free of scum, and that is a cleaner, better feeling. Its like taking a shower after working out in the heat for hours. I feel so yucky and filthy and discusting. But after a shower, fresh make-up and clean clothes, I feel human again.

Yes, getting rid of a psychopath, no matter whether they left or were booted out, is no differant than getting all the filth off. Because they are filth.

I agree with kris too, we like you. We like your posts. We care about you through your words. We are not p's. We will be there for you and cheer you on in each endeavor. As for myself, had it not been for a psychopath, I would not be partaking in this forum. Obviously we all can say the same thing. What brought us together will keep us together. As we forge ahead towards understanding and recovery of psychopaths, we will all grow some, change some, improve a lot. A lot of that will be due to what we read here, of which you are very much a part of. You are of value to us. Great value, and for that, I thank you.

Laura

operalover and Laura,

Thank you for kind words of encouragement and acceptance of me. It really is blessing that this forum exists and you people are here.

Love,
Cherie

Cherie,
I believe the betrayal of a P is one of the very worst things that can happen to those of use who experience it.
In spite of the incredible pain and self-doubt that their actions leave us with, you have chosen to survive it and to move forward with your life.
That demonstrates a great deal of strength and determination (the opposite of powerless and nothingness). And ditto what Kris that about your posts here: You ARE a really cool!
Take Care,
Leti