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#1606 - 10/23/02 02:29 PM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


betrayed, Boy do I relate to this one. I don't think of it as a red flag because it did not appear in my relationship with Psychopath until about a decade in. But maybe it is a red flag. I hope others will share whether or not they saw this behvior early on.

My psychopath husband did this to such a level it was eye-popping. He stepped on my feet constantly. Once he went to the grocery with me, and slammed the back door of the minivan down on my head as I was placing groceries in the back. When we worked outside together, I could count on a day full of "accidents", at least one an hour. In the worst one, we were planting bulbs on a hillside. He was uphill from me. He threw his shovel down the hill in such a way that I was hit in the head with the metal scoop, knocked down, and almost knocked out. About 20 years in, I could not get anywhere near him without being "accidentally" bumped, hit, elbowed, stepped on.

This always hurt my feelings. I saw it as him being oblivious to me in the sense of where my actual physical body was (to me, a metaphor for his deeper oblivion). But now, I think it was even worse than that.

He also mowed over my flowers and young plantings, even the lawn chairs, "spilled" pesticide on my roses, and basically broke and damaged everything that was mine. It was so constant, I struggled to not say anything, but I couldn't always hold my disappointment in. I tried hard because, if I said anything, the dynamic was, here I was destroying the poor man's self-esteem, again. After all, nobody's perfect, but I didn't have to keep rubbing his face in it, did I? He always said, "I can't do anything right. But I can always serve as a bad exmaple."

And I would feel like Attila The Hun.

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#1607 - 10/23/02 09:09 PM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am really glad this thread is here. On my second visit to my therapist I told her I wanted to talk about all the Red Flags I ran through. I want to see where I ignored my "gut" instincts and just kept going.

Also, I had a (friend?) who validated nothing I was feeling. Pretty much blamed it all on me and my inexperience and insecurity. Well that part was true. So new rule #1, I'll be very careful who I let speak into my life. This is the (friend?) the only person besides my brother and tharapist I told about the assault. Gave her all the gory details. Know what she said. . .refering to herself.. .I'm a romatic. I believe he really cares about you. She made excuses for every part of his henious behavior. Told me my mind probably flipped out on the way home because I had to much wine. (Not even one whole glass). Totally invalidated my experience and has only called me three times since to see how I am doing. I said what about this lie, this lie and that lie. How do you see that adds up to caring? I was definite. . .I told her this does NOT add up to caring no matter how you slice it. No call from her since either. Good! I do not need friends like that.

MINI MINI FLAG
The first time I ever saw P#2 was at a trade show about 13 years ago. We are in the same industry and were representing competing companies. I never saw him before, He was in a booth with his cool Porshe. Very nice looking, quiet kind of guy. Seemed nice enough. His booth was almost right next to ours and I stopped by and said "I love your car, I think it's everybodys dream car" He was pleasant, just said thanks in an unasuming way. A coworker was walking with me and said. . .stay away from him finished, he is bad news. I remember thinking. . .so.. . .I just said hi! He seemed really nice.

Fast Forward five years:
Mini Flag 1
I was managing a channel for a company that has independant dealers. It was my job to add quality dealers to increase volume for our company. P#2 contacts me. He is no longer working for the competitor. He wants to sign on with us. When word got around we were talking, two of our other dealers called me, personally took me to lunch. One said. . ."that guy is BAD NEWS, finished. I don't want to tell you what to do but he is bad news". The other dealer said pretty much the same thing and made a gesture indicating he P#2 might be snorting cocaine. This is a very competitive business and so I took it with a grain of salt. If I added P#2 to our dealer base, he would become their competitior as well.

I consider myself a discerning person. I remember checking all my internal "stuff" to see if I was picking anything up and I wasn't. Absolutly nothing. I remember him telling me he graduated from a college that I esteem very highly. Something I'm sure he knew.

Red Flag
Another dealer called and said he had stole the name he had picked for his company. Apparently P#2 had heard about this new competitor and driven out to "chat". But didn't identify himself. Got the information and dealers new name, called the State registered it before the other guy. He denied it said it was his for years. I thought they were picking on him because they were jealous.

Red Flag
Did turnovers. Basicly had people turn off service and turn on in another name, like a husband or wife or business name. Cheating. Justified because the company did not have an upgrade program. Wasn't it better to keep a customer than lose them? He got by with that for a long time. The company actually looked the other way because it looked like they were making their numbers.

Red Flag
Turned in fraudulent expenses (hate to be to obvious here) I'm sort of afraid someone could recognize this it is so obvious. Everyone knew he was doing it including the company. He however, was doing such outstanding numbers that they just let it slide.

Red Flag
Found out about a HUGE account one of the inside sales reps was doing. (he had an inside source, NOT ME). Because he could offer better pricing because he was independant, he got the account. I heard through the grapevine he actually paid the guy alot of money for that "lead".

Red Flag
Raged on the customer service reps. Had to field the calls of the customer service supervisior MANY times because he would call and rip them to shreds. I NEVER saw this behavior. He was ALWAYS so nice to me.
(see this snake likes me. . . I can see the snake batting his eyelashes. . .see how nice he is?) Hello. . .

Red Flag
Started "coaching" me on how to talk to upper management. He was very helpful, after all he had more experience than me. Flattered me alot about what a good job I was doing. That felt very good. >the unrecognized heart<

Called lots. Morning, noon, night. Sometimes business, sometimes just to say hi.

Red Flag
Business lunches. This was really fun and I enjoyed his company. Now that I'm remembering, we never talked about anything personal. it was always about other people, places or things. He was good at answering my questions, but I remember thinking. . . he didn't answer any of my questions. I got answers but not anything of substance.

Was SO supportive when the company went through a re-org. Wrote a letter to the highest level in our district complimenting me on my performance.

Encouraged me to set out on my own. told me I could do it

Wanted to go into business with me. I was really uneasy about that one. I knew about his shady business practices. I really have a good reputation. I knew it would be my a-- on the line and not his if I got caught. It didn't bother him to cheat. He would just shrug and say that's business. It WOULD bother me to cheat. I actually took a job with someone else in the industry. A competitor. He said it didn't bother him, but I think that's when his rage toward me might have started. I could fill a page of all the things he did to back stab me after that. . .whew! I was also worried that he would eventually try to dominate and control me. Something inside of me knew he was that way.

People always asked me - do you REALLY trust that guy? (you guys. . .this snake likes me. . .see how he has wrapped himself around me. . .he loves me. . .you be nice to this snake. . .don't talk bad about him. . .)

I almost always had a very anxious feeling when I was with him. I could never pinpoint it. After I was with him about fifiteen or twenty minutes, I would settle, but I ALWAYS felt some uneasiness. I had the sense he was "pulling" on me but he never acted out of line in any way. It was just friendship. When my job was finially terminated through re-org, I started looking for employment out of state. He kept after me to stay in town and pursue opportunities here.

Red Flag
I already knew, if he ever "asked me" , I would. Something inside of me also knew I needed to put distance between us. I KNEW I couldn't sustain it, and I KNEW he couldn't either. I just knew that. I knew I was totally different from him. But. . by now. . .I was really in love with him. I was hooked. But I KNEW before it started, if I ever went there with him, it would be over. I knew it in my mind but I couldn't resist. I didn't want to resist. And (no blame here) I had my friend above encouraging me to "just relax and enjoy it". What a crypic remark that seems now. . .

There's more.
Thanks for letting me share. . .
finished
p.s. talked to the counselor this evening. I need to think before I can comment. She is definitely not in touch with P behavior.

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#1608 - 10/24/02 12:54 AM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Kris, the cruelty that that man did you is so horrible. He was a monster. How you survived is beyond me. It's amazing what the human spirit can survive.


The first time the P was INVITED into my home, about six months after I first met him. he was doing some work on my car. It was starting to get dark out so he needed a light, he came in and I gave him a lamp ( that's all I had ) out of the living room and an extention cord. He took the shade off the lamp, I had a lovely little delicate porcelain finial holding the shade on. He took the finial off and just threw it on a table. Of course it broke. Smashed to smithereens. They all start off so slowly. Apparently, the books say, that's the way they establish dominance. and a sure sign of escalating violence.

Got lots more red flags. Later.

Betrayed.

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#1609 - 10/24/02 07:33 AM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris-

I am with betrayed. I think of you so often and your posts. Even right now waves just rush over me with compassion for you. I read on a post somewhere you wandered into this forum eighteen months ago (i think). What I consider pheonomal is how responsive you are to others pain. With all you have been for you read with your heart and respond with such clear insight. I think it was this morning I had that thought. I thought I had been through alot (which I have) but nothing to the degree you have. And your courage to put together a book, put yourself out on the line again, plus take the time to provide feedback to those (me) who are struggling to understand this evilness. . .Betrayed put it well. The human spirit is amazing when it refuses to be dimished by evil. Thank you and betrayed for being with me last night. I consciously thought of that :-). The counselor was an intern working for her Masters Degree. I could tell she was clueless about P dynamics. Thank God for the forum. If I hadn't learned this is a subject most tharapists aren't familiar with, I don't think I would have known how "to eat the hay and spit out the sticks' so to speak. I'm still trying to digest some of the stuff. One thing she provided insight to was how the cycle of abuse had started before "it bagan". I post later when I can get my thoughts together.

Reg Flag
I was married. I remember a conversation where we were discussing an acquantaince and his affair. Acquaintance was having an affair with a VERY young girl, teenager 19 I think, had got her pregnant. I said,"gosh why would anyone do that? Who needs that kind of trouble?" Reply. . indicated it was no big deal in a soft voice. My antenna went up on that one too. Just thought it was an odd reaction. . .


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#1610 - 10/24/02 08:42 AM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


betrayed, That's really interesting. If I really think about it, I think if I had been more observant, I would have seen this destructiveness, early on, too.

Early on, it took a different form, mainly him destroying my time with apparently unrelated destructiveness. Psychopath always started a million projects, and then insisted upon letting them rot. I wasn't allowed to touch anything he started until there was a rotted mess to clean up. I wasn't allowed to throw anything out, not so much as a jar. He always clothed his faults as virtues. Save the earth. Save everything. Recycle.

The first time we moved, a year after our marriage, I was 8 months pregnant. Part of my job in the move was to clean rot out of dozens of jars and bottles, his abandoned bean sprouting, yeast raising, wine making, beer making projects. A year's worth.

Of course, from the beginning, I was kept busy cleaning up his general day to day messes. Always lots of surprises when I moved furniture to clean: Plates of half-eaten food, spilled drinks, stains to work on. There was the muddy camping equipment and tarps. And the junk he picked up aong the road for me to clean and repair.

Also, from the beginning, he rolled sofa cushions up and sat on them cross-legged, wiped the oil level checker on new shirts, etc. This didn't strike me so much then as later because nothing we had was really nice in those days. I also saw his stuff as his stuff, and none of my business. Later, when I had worked so hard on a joint financial life, I felt differently.

Defintely, destroying things, and gathering destroyed things, is a red flag.

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#1611 - 10/24/02 09:03 AM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


betrayed and finished, Thank you both so much for such sweet validation.

finished, What you say about me, that I read with my heart, that I am responsive to others' pain, is a pearl of no small price. If that is true, I have my reward for everything I have suffered.

But I have a confession to make: I didn't offer my support to you, on the forum, yesterday...that was betrayed. It was there, in my heart, though.

"Betrayed put it well. The human spirit is amazing when it refuses to be dimished by evil." That is so true. And it has come through in the words of many, many here, not just me. I think that is the crux of what we are doing here. Nurturing out human spirits back to health, working hard to turn spiritual defeat into spiritual strengthening and overcoming.

Good for you, making it to that appointment! I am not surprised to hear it was of limited use. That was my experience with the org, too. I have summed it up, saying it was better than nothing. They can help with practical advice, pertinent to general abuse, keeping yourself safe, etc. But as far as understanding what has happened to you, mentally and emotionally, as a result of psychopathic abuse...at this point in time, finding that in the helping professions is a rare, rare gem.

Here's the hug I didn't give you, yesterday ((((finished)))).

kris

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#1612 - 10/24/02 09:11 AM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Also, I had a (friend?) who validated nothing I was feeling. Pretty much blamed it all on me and my inexperience and insecurity. Well that part was true. So new rule #1, I'll be very careful who I let speak into my life. This is the (friend?) the only person besides my brother and tharapist I told about the assault. Gave her all the gory details. Know what she said. . .refering to herself.. .I'm a romatic. I believe he really cares about you. She made excuses for every part of his henious behavior. Told me my mind probably flipped out on the way home because I had to much wine. (Not even one whole glass). Totally invalidated my experience and has only called me three times since to see how I am doing. I said what about this lie, this lie and that lie. How do you see that adds up to caring? I was definite. . .I told her this does NOT add up to caring no matter how you slice it. No call from her since either. Good! I do not need friends like that."





I had too many friends that invalidated, every little thing I said about the P. One is a sexual abuse counselor for children. He is also a part time book dealer. Anyways, he came into my store, just after the police had left and the psycho was packing up all his stuff. I am sitting there in shock, and my friend? is telling me I have to look at my part in all this. My friend had never said a word about the P before, but after he said, " I never ever trusted that guy." With friends like these, who needs enemies.

A staff member, who is and was at the store where I am back at now, told me when I first moved my stuff back in, that she was going to still talk to P if she ran into him on the street. She knows all about the money he stole off of me, she knows about the stalking, she knows about the fact he tried to get my kid, that he's a sex offender. Hello, is anyone in there?
I begged her please please don't talk to him, because he uses other people to pass messages etc. on to me, that thats how stalkers operate. She finally agreed to not talk to him if she saw him. I have tried to get out of her all the weird things she saw and heard from the P while we were in that store, but she doesn't want to talk about it, says she doen't want to implicate him. All she says is that she never trusted him. This is one of the people who was encouraging me to leave the store and for me to take the P with me. This woman has her own agendas, which is another whole story. I sometimes feel I had been in a whole nest of P's.

I came to realize I don't need these kind of people in my life either. They are gone. I would rather be alone than have friends like these. And it isn't about people having to understand about P's or abusers, its about being invalidated for our experience that hurts the most. I am very cautious about who I let into my life now.

Betrayed.


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#1613 - 10/24/02 09:51 AM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


betrayed, I so relate to how people reacted to all the psychopath's evil acts against you. This was one of the most surprising and disheartening experiences throughout my life with Psychopath. It seemed that no matter what heinous thing he did, all of our friends and associates wanted to be neutral, and not judge him, in fact, be supportive of him. Most of the time, I was treated as less than him because I was being negative by focusing on evil, at all. There is a warped condition, a sort of lie, that pervades our culture, that being neutral and nonjudgmental is the highest virtue.

When people align themselves with this "virtue", they feel superior to those who speak of evil. They feel superior to us, and we have experienced that condescension, sometimes subtle, sometimes not, always heartbreaking, invalidating, hurtful. I know that part of what kept me enmeshed with the Psychopath for so many years was me taking in this invalidation, and feeling like the bad person, instead of him. It supports the psychopathic dynamic, which is that the evil acts are not the problem, the problem is the victim's negative reaction to them. Our culture very much supports this psychopathic illusion. It is an evil lie which holds most in sway, at this time.

It's true it doesn't have to involve psychopathy. This principle operates, in general, where good and evil are concerned, in lesser situations of evil, too. But it operates most glaringly in the psychopathic dynamic. Almost everyone in my environment. who I tried to turn to, in the worst, most horrible time, the end, pointed to Psychopath's wonderful personality, his extraordinay emapthy, how good he made others feel, and said that, for them, these things were just as important (actually more) and that they considered his faults as only a small part of who he was. And they weren't going to judge. After all, we all have faults. Yes, we all do, I thought. But doesn't beating a wife nearly to death, and molesting children disturb something deep inside you? Nope, it didn't. Wouldn't want to judge.

This is a terrible thing, entrenched. Evil has our culture under a hypnotic spell so that most cannot recognize evil, unless it is embodied by "other", other cultures, other countries, other belief systems. It is not us. It is "them".

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#1614 - 10/24/02 01:46 PM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,
Destruction has been a MAJOR hallmark of how the psychopath has wreaked havoc with my and my children's life. Thanks betrayed and kris for bringing this up. I used to feel so guilty for even thinking that he would break things of mine that I cared about (like my heart). He used to say that nothing was mine. He actually told me that I really had no personal belongings. That he believed everything I owned was really his. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. And I internalized this also as part of his brainwashing, crazymaking technique. So if he took something that I believed was mine and I got upset...that I was in the wrong for being hurt or angy or insulted, etc. All in all, the way I NOW see it is that he (the psychopath) is all about destruction. It gives him reason to live. And if I have nothing and I'm his too, then he believes he has the right to destroy me.

Cherie

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#1615 - 10/24/02 04:27 PM Re: Red Flags
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cherie, That is exactly true. They are all about destruction. This is a trait you will not find on any offical list, but it is one I think we victims will find among our experiences. This is an example of how much we (targets and victims) can add to the body of knowledge. You would never get this from an interview or a rap sheet. Only someone close to the psychopath would know this. We create. They destroy. When there comes a day, all this information is available (what we have to add to that which already exists), the unsuspecting out there, will have better tools with which to protect themselves.

He may believe he has the right to destroy you, but he will not. He does not own you anymore.

kris

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