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#1706 - 03/18/06 11:47 AM Re: Red Flags [Re: Dianne E.]

I knew she had issues from her past and how she handled situations within our relationship. But after we split up I was accusing myself for what went wrong within our relationship. I never talked to anyone about our problems during our marriage,(never knew of a narcissist and always thought a psychopath was a person who goes around shooting up a workplace or something) I just tried to ignore her issues while hoping things would get better between us. After I knew we were no longer going to reconcile our marriage, I started talking to friends and family about our problems. A friend of mine pointed out she may have a mental disorder (Narcissism PD).My friend also said she might be a psychopath. So I did some research over the subject. Tons of similarities with how my ex acts. Scary Stuff!!!

She would say something hurtful. I would defend myself and point out to her, her behavior was inappropriate. She would fight with me until I agreed I was wrong for quesitoning her, or either she or I would walk away from one another after the arguement staying upset. If she wanted to make up with me she would than come to me and say "do you still love me?" or she would say "you dont love me do you?" or she would say "you hate me don't you?" in a innocent pleasant voice. I took it as if it was her way of saying I'm sorry. If I said of course I do (I love you)or (of course I don't hate you) than she would proceed how I was wrong or try to blame me for her inappropriate behavior. For instance, she would yell at me or freak out about something minor and claim the real reason she said what she said was because of being stressed out for the lack of money I make. She makes more money than I and always used the money thing against me. Without disclosing my salary, I make something between 39k and 52k. But if it wasn't the salary it was something else. Just a ton of excuses while blaming me at the same time for her outrages.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense. Honestly, I was always confused. thank you for the responce

Edited by Stempysong (03/18/06 01:50 PM)

#1707 - 03/18/06 02:43 PM Re: Red Flags

Hi Stempysong!

I recognised one thing in your post with my ex-boyfriend. He would stop calling me for months and then come back to me like nothin happened. He never had a proper excuse, although sometimes he blamed his suspicions of me. When I think about I felt like a jacket that could be put on and off whenever the wearer felt like it.

He made me feel inadequate and unappreciated. And I kept forcing myself to be some sort of an unemptiable fountain of love, patience and care. But it was never good enough. Another thing your and mine have in common.

Mine also had a rough childhood. Got beaten by his father, got teased and beat up classmates, ran away from home constantly, couldn't really settle down anywhere. Wonder if he wanted sympathy. Does yours seek attention?

Bestest, warmest wishes of health and prosperity!

#1708 - 03/18/06 04:49 PM Re: Red Flags

thanks for the response UpLate,
my ex also ran away from home, she never knew her real father. My ex told me she was raped by a family member and that's just the half of it, unfortunately it's worse than what I've just revealed about her.
My ex and I did everything together prior to marrying. After we married she became more independant while going off not telling me time to time of her plans (leaving me in the dark). I would ask her where she was or what she was doing and she would tell me that she told me about her plans prior. That I never listened to her and that I needed to do a better job listening (she would get real upset verbally attacking me calling me nasty names). The crazy thing was I would catch her in lies which I knew for a fact she never told me prior to leaving or doing something. I gave her the respect and told her of everything I was doing hoping she would also give me that same respect. I'm a firm believer that trust and respect is very important within any relationship. I personally thought her biggest problem was not being able to trust loved ones. But I was wrong, it was about control. She needs to have total control and it's not about controlling herself in a situation. It's all about controlling everyone around her while she is allowed to be out of control. Her family avoids her during these rages.

some other stuff which I found weird. Our child, when she would ask someone to watch our child she would ask in a way as if she was doing that person a favor for allowing them to watch over our child. She would tell that person they were on top of her list this time. She did not like others taking our child to the park or other places without her so she would drop off our child off without shoes, just socks.
When my ex would get drunk she would flirt with every guy at the bars in front of me, friends and family. She even told me once while she was drunk, I was stupid and a sucker for marrying her because she treats me like S*** and I do nothing about it. She was telling me this while laughing in my face. I tried to have a conversation about what she said the next morning but she called me a liar saying I was making it up. She would call me a P***y if I drove safe and did not run a yellow or red light(child in car). To me, she has warped thinking. I feel as if I have enough information to write a book about my marriage and we were only married for a short time.

The crazy thing is now. She is very cool and calm when I go to pickup my child although she has had a few outbursts time to time. anyway, thank you for posting your reply. It's good to know I'm not alone.

#1709 - 03/18/06 08:42 PM Re: Red Flags
Deb Offline

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 85
Hello Stempysong,

You said in your earlier post that your ex never apologized unless you prompted her to and then only with sarcasm. Lack of sincerity.

Also you said "I tried to have a conversation about what she said the next morning but she called me a liar saying I was making it up." Lack of accountability.

Throw in the old double standard ~~ OK for her, but not for you "If I was sick I were to get over it...if she was sick I was to wait on her hand and foot....if she was relaxing it was because she was overworked...If I was relaxing she claimed I was a lazy." All this would indicate that you definitely have a psychopath on your hands.

It is amazing the way they will not take responsibility for their own actions and blame everything they do on someone else. It is important for them to portray themselves as victims from the beginning so YOU make excuses for their bizarre behaviors.

My ex also told me that he was victimized by his family. (Not true, tho I believed it for years). Do you have ANY other evidence to back up the story of her being raped? I have noticed that P's LOVE to play the sexual abuse card. It really lets them off the hook for being crappy people. Keep in mind that everything she has told you about her past may very well be a lie unless you have additional verification.

Trust your instincts. I don't personally believe that anyone ends up on a website like this one by accident.

You said "The crazy thing is now. She is very cool and calm when I go to pickup my child..." I can tell you exactly why she is cool and calm. She has switched gears to cover her tracks. The typical "Who, me? I didn't do anything." All feigned innocence, once again to avoid taking resposibility for anything. This act is also designed to make you doubt yourself and what you both KNOW she has done to you. If she can throw you into doubt about how nasty she really is, then once again it is YOUR problem and not hers. If all goes well, maybe she will be able to convince you that you imagined everything and YOU are the one with the problem.

Remember in the beginning of your relationship when she acted identical to your personality? P's mirror us like that to manipulate us better. Try to take a step back from the situation and look at her NOW when she is acting all cool and calm. I will bet you a donut that she is acting LIKE YOU. She needs to look like the calm level-headed one in the relationship (you) while she tries to portray you as the one with the problems in the relationship (her). My ex has been doing his imitation of me for a couple of years now ~~ apparently everyone is buying it but me. Ha ha

I worked for a P several years ago. Of course, I didn't see it at first but began to after awhile. One day I was watching her and everything she was doing was eerily familiar, including her posture. It took a couple of minutes to realize that I was watching her imitating me. It was surreal, I will never forget it. Take a look at your ex next time and see if you notice anything like that.

Best wishes,

#1710 - 03/18/06 09:52 PM Re: Red Flags [Re: Deb]

thank you for responding Deb,
actually she does pick up on how others act and mirrors them. I've seen her in action numerous time for instance, she will claim she goes to church (which she doesn't) when she meets someone who actually is a church goer and so on with other topics of interest when meeting someone new for the first time. My bestfriend told me the first time he met my ex he noticed she laughed the same way as my mother. He told me he remembered thinking it was very spooky. She has a knack for picking up another persons lingo and can fit in with perfection. I should know, she did the same thing to me when we first met. And in all honesty, her family considered me the savior. They had me pegged as the perfect nice guy, the total opposite of who she usually attracts or goes out with.

I dont have any proof about her being raped. But everyone within her family knows how much she dislikes her step-brother. So I just assumed it was reality. I do know for a fact her mother committed suicide. Ironically, each year we broke up right around the date (month and day) of the suicide and it was me who was leaving her each time. I had no idea what date her mother committed suicide until after we were separated. I decided to look it up so I could reveal this info to the psychiatrist. But each time I left it was due to her behavior and the way she treated me. Her behavior would drastically intensify during this time each year.

I do know what you are talking about how she turns everything around to make it appear I'm the one who has the problems while she sits back and plays the victim. She is very good at that. Although I think a few of her family members know how she actually is and have heard this same song and dance from her in the past.

She has told me so many lies and her stories never made much sense. But I do have to admit, I was gulible and always wanted to believe her and trust her.

You were saying how you worked with someone who is a P. Crazy thing, when my ex and I first met she told me how she got along with everyone and how much she is liked at her job. I went to a christmas party and her coworkers actually went out of there way to be nasty to me and to her. I could not understand it to save my life at the time. When I asked her about it, she told me they were just jealous because she makes so much more money than they do. She told me since she has a college education with a degree they are all jealous. I also found out she does not have a degree of any kind. But now looking back at everything, it's becoming clearer now.

As for her being controlling, it was real bad. She purchased our home while we were engaged. I asked her if my name was going to be added and she told me that it would be best not to, that I would be able to qualify as a first time home buyer during our next home purchase. So I paid her each month a personal check in her name. Now that we are going thru a divorce she is claiming I was never a husband to her (that i was more like a room mate) and I was paying her rent each month(my Lawyer said she never heard of such a thing, husband paying "rent"). She would also come home during her lunch break to get the mail. I very rarely ever saw any of our bills. She would hide them from me and if I asked her where they were she would get real upset telling me I needed to trust her.

Like I said, I feel as if I could write a book and I could keep going on and on with more screwy messed up stuff. So you think she is a psychopath?

Anyway, thank you for listening and giving feedback. It is really helping me cope knowing I'm not alone.

Edited by Stempysong (03/19/06 06:34 AM)

#1711 - 03/19/06 06:02 AM Re: Red Flags
Vanessa715 Offline

Registered: 02/15/06
Posts: 64
Hi Stempy...and everyone else...:D

Stempy...u might never CONFIRM that ur ex is a P...unless they do so in the psych eval ur having done (but even if they dont diagnose her as one...that dsnt mean she ISNT...but i can definitely tell u from what u've written so far she definitely seems to fit the bill...classic P i've said in one of my posts...even if they arent a TEXTBOOK...OFFICIAL P...there are enough issues, problems, etc for u to at least determine that SOMETHING is wrong with them....they are toxic for u...and u need to get away...and ur safety and peace of mind will come in behaving as though they are a P...

my suggestion wld be to keep reading...keep learning...embrace the P concept...and accept that even if they arent a P...they behave like them enough for u to behave and act when dealing with if they were...

many of the things in ur posts are so like my situation...


- also had a rough childhood and told me several shocking things that made my heart go out to him...and whenever i got mad or upset and DID try to stand up for myself or question..or whatever....or the times i tried to throw him out (later in the relationship) he pulled the sympathy/guilt card...saying things like "ur just like the others...everyone says they are gonna be different but they're not...i wld never do that to someone else...blah blah blah"...and of course always got me to give in...

-over time the person u fell in love with begins to disapppear before ur eyes...and the real person emerges...but the mask still makes an appearance every so often just to keep u hooked....waiting for the next cookie...and the more the persons mask begins to crack and the real person begins to emerge....u begin to get confused...about what u believed to be true...

-EVERYTHING was a double standard...although it wasnt so blatant...he would use different throw me off and try to make me think it wasnt a double standard...that the situation was different...but it wasnt...but again...i wld give in...more out of confusion than anything else...

- very defensive if i questioned him about ANYTHING...

- blames me for the failure of his relationship and when i try to point out his mistakes...he says 'thats the problem w/ u...ur always focusing on everyone else instead of urself (THATS WHAT HE DOES)...or he wld say 'two wrongs dont make a right

- he had trouble being affectionate unless he was high....if i said i love u he wldnt say it back...and then he wld get mad saying i was saying it to get him to say it and he wldnt be controlled lik ethat...that he wld say it when he wanted to say it...and not because i was making him

- if i expressed my feleings about anything he wld attribute the fact that i felt that way to some flaw in my thinking...

- contradictory day oen thing is wrong...when i fix it...then thats wrong too...ur confusion is their feeding ground....

- ppl he worked with supposedly loved him when he started working at a new place....within a few months they hated him and he wld quit...of course it was their fault...same with his landlords...girlfriends...etc...

- i wld often ask him how he cld just turn off his feelings....when he professed to love me so much...he wld say 'its not that im not upset or i dont have feelings about it...its just that i deal with it and express it differently from u'....which i now know...its not that he turned them off...its that they were never there to begin with...

anyway....all of this is just to say...ur not the only one..its highly likely she's a P...regardless this person is contact is the way to the extent possible b/c of the child in the middle (good luck with that)...and as far as sorting it all out in ur head and trying to feel better post this ordeal...just keep coming the good...the lessons learned...mourn...then do ur best to move forward....

best of luck...feel better...stay strong...



#1712 - 03/19/06 07:47 AM Re: Red Flags [Re: Vanessa715]

thank you Vanessa, it is real crazy. Reading your post as well as others, I read the same patterns. It's as if you are speaking for me at times about my ex. So many things you and others have said and I'm like yea, exactly, she does do that all the time.

you said:
"he pulled the sympathy/guilt card...saying things like "ur just like the others...everyone says they are gonna be different but they're not...i wld never do that to someone else...blah blah blah"...and of course always got me to give in..."

"very defensive if i questioned him about ANYTHING..."

"-over time the person u fell in love with begins to disapppear before ur eyes...and the real person emerges...but the mask still makes an appearance every so often just to keep u hooked.."

"blames me for the failure of his relationship and when i try to point out his mistakes...he says 'thats the problem w/ u...ur always focusing on everyone else instead of urself"

"he had trouble being affectionate unless he was high....if i said i love u he wldnt say it back..."

" contradictory day oen thing is wrong...when i fix it...then thats wrong too...ur confusion is their feeding ground...."

if you changed each one of those statments to a "her" instead of a "he", I would ask you, how do you know my ex? So much in common it's crazy!! When my ex would get drunk or get high she would get in the mood to have sex too. She would usually end up getting so trashed that she would end up passing out and I would have to take care of her. But she would let me know early on in the night as well as others around "you are gonna get it tonight". (she always pointed out to friends and family how she took care of me and at the same time this was the only time she was extremely nice saying good things about me) She wouldn't do this all the time that is say nice things in front of others. But she would say nice things about me and at the same time building her image of being a great wife.

After our child was born, she used sex as my reward system. After she got pregnant she told me she didn't like sex all that much. But when I did something good she would say "man oh man you are gonna get it tonight" most of the tonights ended up her sleeping in early forgetting what she said earlier. And 100% of the time when we actually did have sex, she would complain from start to finish. In all honesty I hated sex eventually too, it was getting old hearing her always complain.

"very defensive if i questioned him about ANYTHING..."

she would tell me I had issues of not being able to trust others. Or she would lash out at me. She would also twist my words. This sounds crazy, but the less I spoke the better we got along. I love to talk but learned in time to be more of a listener.

" contradictory day oen thing is wrong...when i fix it...then thats wrong too...ur confusion is their feeding ground...."

It got so bad she would yell at me for not thinking about it first before her!!! (she wanted me to read her mind type of deal) For four months straight I was buying her flowers every Friday on my home from work (I'm serious too, not eggagerating). Buying her ciggs on my way home became a norm. Always trying to fix us was my goal. I admit, I was never perfect in past relationships. But this relationship was different. I had no room for error and all the good things I tried to do for her, eventually ended up being wrong as well.

This is the problem I am faced now. If it was between her and just I. I would have no problems moving on and eat my mistake. But I have a child involved. Does anyone have any good advice who has a child with a P, how they are able to cope? My child is what is important to me now. I lived this hell life. I really feel guilty knowing as our child grows how our child will be treated by her. Is our child going to be confused about mommy? or will she try to brainwash our child into hating me? Or will she eventually push our child away due to her selfish "me" ways? Our child is only two years of age. And it seems now the more I try to get involved with our child's life, the more she becomes controlling of what I can and can't do. She also has a new boyfriend but wont admit that she is seeing anyone. She made claims to my lawyer I'm making up lies. The new boyfriends car is parked in front of the house 3 to 4 days out of the week. This new boyfriend also spends the night. Trust me, I'm not jealous. I actually feel bad for the guy knowing what he is up against. But my ex would put our child in the same bed as her during our marriage.(something I never agreed with) Our child does not sleep on his own. My Ex's stepfather also slept with our child when he came over to visit or when we visited her stepfather. Also, something we fought about but she got her way. Ironically, I did not sleep with my wife. She kicked me out of our bed early on. She would get real upset over my snoaring. To make a long story short. I am pretty sure this new boyfriend is sharing a bed with my child.

Anyway...and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for listening

#1713 - 03/21/06 07:30 PM Re: Red Flags
Diane1969 Offline

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Too nice: Seems like a very gregarious “nice guy”, meek and easygoing, very charming, and controlled, very unassuming when you first meet, but that very quickly gives way to aggression and verbal abuse once you are “hooked” on the “nice guy” image.

Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer who brutally murdered over 50 women while having sex with them, was described as nice, actually too nice.

Ted Bundy, while on death row spoke of another notorious psychopathic killer who shared death row with him, Gerald Stano, as " of the nicest, pleasantest individuals I've ever run across..." Stano confessed to the brutal murder of 41 women. I've seen a photo of Stano and he looked like a total sweetheart with soft eyes and a gentle smile.

When I met my ex-P, I thought I had never met anyone so nice in my life. I held onto that image through hell and back until I was forced to give it up by the incredible and intense emotional pain he caused in me.

Too Passionate: I'd quantify this as oversexed, with sexual obsessions, especially porn addiction (usually deviant porn), philandering and promiscuity, the need for ritualized sex or acting out sex fantasies consistently with no real intimacy or actual interaction with YOU as a real person. At first this might be very exhilarating and new and exciting but it soon grows burdensome when you realize that he CAN'T relate to you as a real person and it is all just masturbation for him. He is not very good in bed because it is all about HIM. BIG warning sign if he chokes you AT ALL during passionate arousal.

Extreme competitiveness with YOU: Not exactly comforting on first dates. And this gets worse as his comfort level increases and he feels more and more free to express his underlying sadism with you.

Consistent evidence of pathologic envy for his friends: He is always badmouthing them to get you to think less of them and more of HIM.

Trophies: You find Trophies of a multitude of other women: Especially underwear, but also sex toys (I found many that were still dirty after play...ewww).

Pathologic lying: He tells you multiple stories that conflict and he never fesses up to the REAL truth. You feel consistently disoriented and confused because nothing makes sense.

Mind Games: Begins early on to play mind games with you that hurt you emotionally and cause you to feel bad about yourself. Yes, this is his essential sadism and misogynism peeking through.

Appearance: Very picky and particular about his appearance and the appearance of his house, making you feel somehow, that you can never let your hair down with him. When he is more comfortable with you this will crumble from time to time and you will wonder who this PIG is that you don't know.

Thievery: Signs or direct evidence of petty thievery. You also find things of yours mysteriously disappearing.

Absolutely no remorse or conscience: When he hurts you and you tell him, he just doesn't get it, and you never get an apology that feels sincere.

The mask drops: You turn around to find him with his eyes hideously dilated and his veins bulging, chin jutted out and his whole body dripping with hatred... oops! You just "saw" the REAL him for the first time.

Shallowness: He is all talk and no depth. It becomes apparent really early on that this guy is SHALLOW as a mud puddle and has no ability to think or feel deeply about anything.

Grandiosity: He thinks he is totally off the chain, but there is NOTHING you can find in him to support his high opinion of himself.

Double standards in all things: He has low standards of behavior for himself and how he treats you, but you must NEVER treat him the same way or else.

TALK, TALK, TALK: He will tell you what will keep you under his control. Show any signs of disapproval early on and he will change his TALK, not his behavior, never his behavior. But he will hide that behavior from you if he can and continue to TALK, TALK, TALK.

Narcissism: It is NEVER about you in any way, big or small, and if you push for equality in the relationship he denies you categorically and without exception. On several ocassions I said something like, "It has to be about me once in a while..." and his response was always, "I'm not going to do that, Diane!" This was one of the few TRUTHS I ever got out of him in well over a decade of knowing and dating him.


#1714 - 03/21/06 07:58 PM Re: Red Flags [Re: Vanessa715]
Diane1969 Offline

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
OMG! Vanessa! I was so chuckling while reading your post... oh, my gawd, how very much the same they are. Yes...

One of the thing that drove me absolutely batty was the lack of ability that he had to be logical... there was so much magical thinking on his part and something psychologists call "reference of ideation". That is where they make some wild comment and then build logical arguments based on that baseless assumption as though it were fact. It is very schitzophrenic. I spent so much time trying to teach him the concept of "Occam's Razor" and scientific method. This guy was supposed to be well educated, but that was another lie. And every time I blew his crazy assumptions out of the water with FACTS, he would get so angry and tell me I HAD to validate him... LOL! I always came back with "I will not support your delusions. Sorry!" After a while I just started tuning him out when he started with his crazy talk. That was very effective and he stopped trying to get me to buy into his distorted world views.

And Yes!, they are very good, masters really, at turning you inward towards your own stuff so you will stop looking at them. They seem to be very good at recognizing and seizing those few things and places where you are the most vunerable. My P's attempts at this backfired in the end, because I started recognizing his mind games and made conscious, but internal decisions that I wouldn't allow him to hurt me with "those" things any more. It was a real eye opener to consciously suppress any reaction and watch him continue to try to hurt me with the stuff that worked before and watch his puzzlement when I didn't react as he expected me to. When you can do this their underlying hatred for you becomes real apparent as they search for new ways to hurt you that also don't work.

In the end there was nothing left, no feelings for him at all because the games became all he was in the relationship for. I was left with no love for him, only anger and total hatred for this guy who chose to make himself my enemy. After all it is only your enemies who set out to purposefully torment you and who gain pleasure from your pain, and who search for new weapons to use against you.

And the one thing that is canny is that they are very specific at choosing what will hurt you. One of his old girlfriends, who has become a rather good friend of mine told me once that when she told him he broke her heart (by cheating on her with ME, during the time I dumped him for cheating on me with HER), he asked her if she wasn't sure it wasn't that she had a broken EGO. That turned her inward and she was still thinking about that 5 years after she broke up with him. If he had said the same thing to me I would have told him to go F@%& himself. That would have infuriated me. He had other ways, specific ways to turn me inward that were specifically effective with me.

BTW, this is the same woman that he drugged and undressed and had sex with while she was unconscious. This event happened after they had been dating off and on approximately six years. She continued to date him for three more years. Now, tell me he isn't a charmer after THAT!

Compile that list! One of the things that enabled me to get out of the craziness is that I journalled everything! And then I went back and read it all from time to time.


#1715 - 03/21/06 08:13 PM Re: Red Flags
Diane1969 Offline

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 147
Once again you prove a point that Dianne made... that people like this consistently choose very nice people to victimize. I'm sorry you went through this and hope that you continue to read and post on the board.

Welcome to the forum.


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