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#1646 - 01/25/03 04:20 PM Re: Red Flags


>>When we organize our thoughts in this fashion we are working from a different side of our brain than when we are just listening to our internal chatter. This, in itself, can be extremely helpful in establishing a higher degree of clarity and understanding of the situation<<

Thanks for sharing that!!! I didn't know that (about the brain). I only knew that it became more clear the more I posted. And you are right. . .it takes the "chatterbox" out of our head.

Thanks again!
finished :-)

#1647 - 01/25/03 04:36 PM Re: Red Flags


I continue to be a victim as I let the cycle of abuse continue. My father was physically intimidating and verbally abusive when I was growing up. My mom was emotionally unavailable. When I think about it my father played games. One of my boyfriends was alcoholic and in the end started to become physically abusive, that is when I hit my bottom and went to alanon. My very first boyfriend and I really liked each other but couldn't get along because we were both control freaks. Both of these guys have some of the narsacistic characteristics. As I grow and heal over the P. I am sure it will be beneficial for me to look at those past relationships and see the patterns. I use to go to open AA meetings, about 10 years ago. That is probably something I should do again.

I have a wonderful cute little dog. I think it is great you got one. They can be very therapuetic. There have been times where I would lay around depressed and in isolation and my dog was always right there by my side. He truly loves me unconditionally. Somewhere around here I have a real cute reading about dogs. I will find it and post it sometime.

>>Very friendly but life had beat me around alot so I staying in the outer circle waiting to be invited in. P#2 was very patient and a super good hunter. He spent many years coaxing me out of myself. Calling, showing interest, encouraging,sticking up for me, supporting me. Gradually, he won my trust.<<



Edited by betterway (01/25/03 04:40 PM)

#1648 - 01/25/03 05:04 PM Re: Red Flags


>>My father was physically intimidating and verbally abusive when I was growing up.<<

What I have discovered in my life (as I look back over my relationships) all the meaningful men in my life were intimidating, serial bullies. They would win my trust then bully and intimidate me. I have been very scared of men. In this way I relate to my dog. I like men, but all the ones I've been drawn to become mean and abusive once they "have" me. I NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS EVERY BELIEVED P#2 WAS LIKE THAT OR EVEN HAD THE POTENTIAL. Yes, I saw red flags but thought "nobody is perfect". . .

One of the most encouraging things for me in regards to the cycle of abuse is that it is learned and can be unlearned. That gave me so much hope. My fear was that the pattern was so ingrained in me that I possibly could never change. It will/has taken work plus "biting the bullet" and going to those meetings. It is very educational. We talk alot about the information that is in the books that are recommended on the forum. "Stalking the Soul" "Betrayal Bonds" "Why is it always about you" "The Verbally Abusive Relationship". In NO WAY easy stuff to hear or deal with. After the first couple of times I went I was toast the following day. It is getting better now. I've accepted that I have been a (victim) target of abuse. Not an easy thing for me to accept about myself. I have been an independant, competitive woman out in the work force for years. This would definitely not have been a way I would have described myself. Now it just dosn't matter. . .I want to "get well" and OVER P.

So glad you are here with us Betterway. We all are able to give and receive so much hope and encouragement.

Always wishing you the best. . .

#1649 - 01/25/03 06:00 PM Re: Red Flags
freedom Offline

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 11
i am reading everything
and i love you'all
2 ladies were here a little while ago
one was married 25 years to a p
and her girlfriend was married 5 times
to the strangest guys
when she was 17
she shot her first husband
he told her if i hit you again shoot me with this gun
in my arm
well she listened to him and shot him
where it made him paralized from chest down
he died six years later
she said everyone in the small town was glad she did it
because he had been so abusive to his parents and others
and the rest would be too long to tell the stories

i keep meeting people that have p in their life
my sister-in-law is a nurse practitioner
and she does the work of the psychiatrist
because it is cheaper for her boss
so anyway she sees young children
who wants to kill or burn people
just for the hell of it
it is getting kind of crazy out there
but really it has always been crazy out there
we just did not know it until NoW!
again i say
i love you'all
and i am glad that Oprah is bringing the subject up
the world needs to know about what is really going on
with some people on this earth
under heaven

the other day, in a group i joined a long time ago
there was a guy describing what was happening to him
what this other fellow was doing to him
and it sounded like a p thing
so i send him the description of a p
and he (i do not know this guy at all) writes back
that the description of a p sounded exactly like him


Edited by freedom (01/25/03 06:05 PM)

#1650 - 01/25/03 07:08 PM Re: Red Flags

>>I like men, but all the ones I've been drawn to become mean and abusive once they "have" me. I NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS EVERY BELIEVED P#2 WAS LIKE THAT OR EVEN HAD THE POTENTIAL. Yes, I saw red flags but thought "nobody is perfect"

Wow, the more I learn about N's and P's the more I see my ex boyfriends having those characteristics. My ex boyfriend (in 1990, the alcoholic)held me hostage while in a black out and threaten to throw me off a balcony. He use to threaten if I leave his house, never come back, so I stayed. He use to sit there and yell at me, while I sat across from him crying not saying a word (all about alcoholism). I have been through alot of abuse, known alot of bullies. I've mentioned before that I was bullied in grade school. That experience has left a big hole in me, and I will never forget the hurt and the loneliness I felt. I to this day get tears in my eyes if I even mention it to my therapists. I never imagined that the P. would become the worst bully I have ever known. When I met this P. he was like a dream come true, never ever (even with the ex boyfriends)did I have such a best friend. The abuse of the P. was psychological/emotional and I didn't realize I was being abused for along time. I probably had a big tolorance level. The good was so good, that I went through alot of bad to try to get the good back. Didn't want to give up on something so "wonderful". I didn't realize the level of abuse I was caught up in until I read "stalking the soul". That is my favorite book.

>>My fear was that the pattern was so ingrained in me that I possibly could never change.<<

I know the feeling.

That acceptance stuff when I'm able to do it does give me some peace of mind. Acceptance doesn't mean that we have to like it, just that we accept that what is - is.

So glad you are here too, finished.

Take care everybody,

#1651 - 01/25/03 11:45 PM Re: Red Flags [Re: freedom]

It has been almost two months since I found out and broke it off with my P. This has been an agonizing, soul searching,
enlightening journey for me. Within that time I have spoken
with two friends that are also involved with P's.... but, of course, I wouldn't have recognized it before. Their stories are different, one hasn't fully consciously realized
that is what he is dealing with and the second friend just ended the relationship. Anyhow, I won't go into detail other than to say that in both cases the P's fit all of the criteria. I refuse to be paranoid though.... there are far
more people in the world that are able to have healthy, loving, caring, honest relationships than there are P's.
We all just need to ask the right questions, be more observant, trust our intuition and know our weaknesses.

#1652 - 01/26/03 09:23 AM Re: Red Flags

Betterway and Finished,

It is very helpful to read your posts. We do have similar past: past boyfriends, past Ps. My mother wasn't there emotionally, my father was a control freak,was getting furious easily and both of them criticized a lot, too much.They are now angels but the damage has been done.
Although I was popular and outgoing at school, it ended with my first relationship with a P, long and tedious. I had to escape. It took a while to come back to live and then I had change life, and was meeting other kind of men, more sophiscated, more educated, but not any better. I couldn't see. This last one was very patient to hook me, just like you. I was rejecting him at first, my gut feeling was telling me that something was wrong with him. He looked perfect with a perfect girlfriend and was hitting on me. I never thought for a moment that he was a P. I thought he had some pathologies but not the P one. I even remember commenting to my sibblings that he was the opposite of my previous Ps. So different! At that time, I was very sure of myself, professionally, I had accomplished quite a lot and had clear objectives and path ahead. However with a P around,things become always convoluted, they loved to pervert others. This last P, was the worst. Just like you have said, the first one was disfunctional; alcoholic, drug addict, verbally, emotionally and psychologically abusive but the second one by far the worst, functional and successful using his wit to calculate the spread of his malignancy on others and all that just for a selfish pleasure and reward. Devastating and harrowing experience! I, as you, must be highly tolerant to pain but I think now, that what I was looking in those Ps was that they don't ever criticize you, the opposite of my parents and that alone I guess was comfort for me.I have to confess when I realized that the P wasn't perfect that is exactly when i started to flex, I knew that he would accept me the way I am, not perfect. I was getting alone so well with him, I was so surprised that someone would think so much like me, that I was lucky that he who is sucessfull has chosen to work with me.

After some years of friendship, or what we think was frienship and through a very nightmarish experience that as left me traumatized, I realized the P was a P. I realized as well, although they had nothing to do with the P, the men with whom I was working were bullies, and the boss a definite P, lying and conning all his clients begging us help to re-inforce those pratices. I was in panick. It has never happenned to me to be bullied at work. I had never really care about my work since I was doing much more important work on my own aside from that office, giving a lot of my time to some of my own work but giving time to the P trying to build up something with him. helping out of some of his "plans" which of course were just talks and dream. I read that website from Tim Field and put an end to that bullying at work and put limits to all and lost my job really fast, my boss wasn't paying me. I was so relieved and exhausted. I have been since then without work, but have managed to operate from home. That time alone has helped him re-assess my life, alhtough I haven't come up with real answers on how to re-build my life, I am confident that I will find them slowly. I thought I was a total idiot that I hadn't realize that the P was a P, and that how come my first P#1 did suffice in my learning experience but now that I see that you had similar experiences and lifepath, it is by far a deeply ingrained pattern stronger than my lucidity. I have never been to a therapist, group therapy or any support group. Probably I should do that , but I wouldn't know where to start, although all of you have done it, and have said it. What one of my sibling told me is that we were told to take care of our problems on our own, but it is ok to use the help of others to through problems. I am lucky, my siblings are very close to me and they have been supportive. But I want to get rid as much as I can of that little tedious pattern.
Thanks for your post, it is a great help for understanding and for mostly opening up to others but also to myself!

Edited by hopefull (01/26/03 09:26 AM)

#1653 - 01/26/03 11:23 AM Re: Red Flags

Hi all just a quick post for now.

>>there are far more people in the world that are able to have healthy, loving, caring, honest relationships than there are P's. We all just need to ask the right questions, be more observant, trust our intuition and know our weaknesses<<

. . .trusting our instincts and knowing ourselves. . .something that was completely foreign to me. I had been beaten down so far I didn't even know who I was must less trust myself. I allowed others to override my own judgement and it got to be a habit to second guess myself.

But I'm learning. To care less about "pleasing" others and think about what is right for me.

Be back later. (son peering over my shoulder) :-)

#1654 - 01/26/03 11:41 AM Re: Red Flags

Hi Betterway
I wanted to comment on your post but I'm sharing my computer with my son right now (his turn).
Have a GREAT day Betterway. . .catch you later!

#1655 - 10/20/04 05:37 PM Re: Red Flags
Dianne E. Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2789
Loc: United States
rick b
01/11/03 07:55 AM

It's funny how when we continue to conciously process the P experience our memory is still jogged by events that now "make sense."

I realized that in the four months that I was with my P he
never picked up on any subtle hints or nuances about me. Whenever I would go over to his house he never had anything in his kitchen that he would have known I liked..... something special that I like to drink, a flavor of ice cream, etc... I don't think that P's can really figure out what another person likes....we know that they have no idea what another person (truly) needs.

Another example of this occured when we had taken a weekend trip together, out of town. We were shopping and my P wanted to buy a present for his mother. I was shocked. He looked around the store for 1/2 hour without finding anything. I just assumed he wanted to pick something out himself. Finally, he asked me to help him find something that would suit his mother. It took me all of 5 minutes. I now realize that he couldn't do it.... his brain is not wired that way.

I was always helping my P with small projects and errands,
so I didn't think it was odd to ask him to help me to move
a sofa from a friend's house over to mine. My P had a truck and was working on a job in the same neighborhood that my friend lived. I asked him several times to meet me there when he was finished for the day...but he never called me
to do so. Finally, one evening I asked him to go out with me to dinner and, after he agreed, told him that on the way back we'd pick up the sofa. He didn't seem too happy about it but he did it anyway.

I mention these red flags because, moving forward in our own lives, I think they will help us to weed out any P's that cross our paths in the future.


01/11/03 02:56 PM

Ps care about no one but themselves. Your P was not going to take the time or trouble to make sure that he had items in his household that you would have enjoyed. But boy, you better make sure to know what he would like to have or what would be important to him. They also cant bother themselves with others. Helping to move the couch would have meant that he was a compassionate caring person, one who thought of others. Doesn't work that way with a P. You or I probably wouldn't think twice about helping someone who needed help, but Ps aren't capable of that process. My daughter dated a P for about 4 months before we caught on. Since he didn't have a car, she always had to drive him every where. Some nights she would get home late from a date and he was not even concerned enough about her safety to call and see if she got home okay or even tell her to call and let him know when she got in. THEY JUST DON'T CARE!! As far as his gift for his mother, he knew he should do that out of obligation, but really wasn't doing it from the heart, therefore, he had no clue what would be of interest to her. If you really stopped to think about a Ps lifestyle you could begin to feel "sorry" for them thinking that they are leading lonely, sad lives. In actuality, I believe their life style is okay with them for they dont know any different. I even asked the P that I know if his life style bothered him and he confirmed my thoughts that it did not, for he didn't know anything different. When you have never truly experienced love or any other emotion, how can you feel at a loss for not living a normal life. Last Oct. the P sent me an email after not hearing from him for over three months. His first line was "I have gone through a lot of low points in my life but I have managed to survive them all". How comforting! Now ask all the people who he has conned, deceived, lied to and raped of their emotions if they have survived. With time hopefully they have or will, but I can be certain they can't make that statement in such a flippant manner like he did. Hang in there Rick, sounds like you are on the right track.


01/11/03 06:51 PM

Pat and Rick:
That is absolutely right what you just said: I once said to the P that my car was making really weird noise and that my lights on the dashboard were flashing and on top of that, I had to drive home for a while through really scary and unfavorable neighborhoods. The P sounded annoyed that I mentionned fearing that I would call him back for help and I am sure that my car would have broken down and he wouldn't have answered the phone. I came back home safe by miracle, my car was out the next day. Now I know, I should have taken that as a undeniable red flag. As for obligations toward parents, I remember hearing the P saying that it had spent the Holidays with his parents because he had to, not because he felt like it and that really he should have shorten it because after one day with his family he had it.

01/14/03 05:03 PM

The P I know is outwardly kind, considerate, willing to do anything for anybody (that is in his group). However, it is part of his set up, the game he has to play to be in control. I still in my heart want to believe that how he acted towards me was from his heart, that he really was my friend. He even tells me that the friendship he had with me was real, that he was not using me. Even if it was, that does not take away the pain out of it all. The reality is that I suffered greatly at the hand of this person and rather or not he is a P or not, I have to save myself, and quit reliving the scenarios of this persons making. I like what one of the narrasictic web sites said about the N. sees everybody either as a competitor or a supplier (negative/positive). That helps me to understand it better.

>>I even asked the P that I know if his life style bothered him and he confirmed my thoughts that it did not. <<

The P. told me he loves his lifestyle and I am just jeaolous of him and his personality. He does not see any problem with what he does.


01/15/03 11:35 AM

My P always thought he was living life the best way, that he knew the secrets to a good life. One thing he always kept saying and now rings so true to a P - out of the blue every now and then he'd animatedly ask "Know what I'm worried about?". He'd hook you in with that - and you'd answer, with concern - "What?". Then he'd slap his knee and proclaim "NOT A DAMN THING". Turns out he was right on - he just always seemed to roll with everything that came his way and never lost his cool. Normality for them is not thinking beyond their own nose. And not thinking at all about what they do or say affecting other people. They seem to go around in their own little self-contained "bubble show".

01/15/03 06:11 PM

i like what you said
i could not have said it better
but if i keep this up
i shall call myself freedumb again


rick b
01/16/03 08:14 AM

I mentioned in a previous post that I was always helping my P with small projects and errands. I went over to his house on a day that he had been doing the laundry. His dryer was broken and I noticed that there were several plastic bags filled with wet clothing that had been washed. I offered to bring the clothes to my own home and dry them for him. The next day he called me on the phone and asked if it had taken me a long time. "No" I said, "but it's amazing what you find out about someone when you do their laundry." There was dead silence on the other end of the phone. "What do you mean by that?" he asked in a very stern voice. I told him that I was only joking...which I was at that time... and to lighten up. Now knowing the P personality... how much they lie and how disorganized they can be... he absolutely panicked trying to think about what I could have found and how he was going to get out of it.

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