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#16413 - 07/20/14 06:38 PM Adopted Child & RAD
DadofRad Offline
member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
I was blown away when I found your online group and started reading the posts on adopted child. We have felt so alone in our struggle. And even after hearing of adopted kids with similar problems, it was so strange to hear your similarities which seemed to match almost perfectly. Equally strange is that these symptoms are so similar, yet the professional community has a hard time recognizing them and establishing a solid diagnosis:

• Violent and aggressive at home but acts normal at school
• Not attached to us. Doesn't miss us when he's gone or anxious about being separated
• Shows no remorse for any bad behavior. No sign of really knowing his behaviors are wrong or harmful.
• Lies about us and others, wants to get people in trouble and accuse others of abuse.
• Premeditated ways he can get even or get someone in trouble.
• Regularly threatens to kill or hurt people and children.
• When no one’s looking he will 'accidentally' hurt another child or intentionally lash out.
• Will randomly make a violent gesture behind someone’s back with a pencil or butter knife.
• Destroys his property and others intentionally
• In a rage he will curse uncontrollable for 10-30 minutes straight, throw chairs, etc.
• All form of affection appear genuine to outsiders but the family knows it's insincere.
• Uses feces and urine to get even with us when he is sent to his room. Pees and poops on carpet, furniture, etc.
• Half the counselors and teachers he has don't see his problems because he has them fooled.
• People judge us as bad parents because we are strict with him or treat him differently than the other children and automatically assume the problem is at home.
• He reverts to baby talk.
• He is gifted with language and appears intelligent, but makes no meaningful connections with consequences.
• Acts out sexually, tried to pull his sisters pants off twice, asked an adult boy to show him his privates, looks up adult searches online, streaks through the house flaunting at mom and sister (he is only ten)
• Has attempted to choke another child, thrown rocks at children, hit, kicked, and stomped on sister’s head.
• Tried to push his sister down the stairs, regularly tries to trip his mother on the stairs, even when she is holding the baby.
• Has attempted to poison his sister and asked about poison that would kill.
• Has been on most of the psychotropic drugs which have only decreased the frequency of psychotic behavior.
• Has visual hallucinations, hears voice that tell him to hurt others.
• Is obsessed with his baby brother and has raised a butter knife in a threatening way at him before.
• His behavior gets worse each year.

Long story short. He was adopted from India at 17 months. He has an older (biological to us) sister who is 11. We just had a baby last year (miracle, we were infertile). As a toddler, we saw that he was aggressive and prone to fits but not too serious. But things got worse. We tried homeschooling, but by fourth grade he was too much to handle. During the fourth grade public school year we hospitalized him for violently acting out in aftercare. We pushed the school to get him evaluated and finally they saw he needed an ESE school. His behavior continued to deteriorate at home while at the ESE school they ‘didn’t see much behavioral problems’. We hospitalized him again in December for home violence and threats. The school assigned us a case worker who saw the problems clearly and recommended a residential treatment program. Somehow we got approved for the Residential Treatment, got Medicaid, and admitted him in April. For the first two months they didn't see the problems and invalidated us. In the third month after stopping his meds, they see the real him. They only diagnosed him with RAD and ADHD so far although other docs have diagnosed him more severely. They told us frankly that there isn’t much that can be done treatment wise and he most likely will not get better. He will most likely be returned to us by Christmas.

I have a question about diagnosis. On this site the term psychopath is used everywhere, but the DSM manual doesn't use that anymore and only uses psychotic disorder and personality disorders. Neither can be applied to children. It looks like CD is the standard for children and pre-requisite for adult’s psychotics or personality disorder. No one has ever diagnosed him with CD but this seems like a no brainer. Are clinicians hesitant to give CD diagnosis? Why do you use the term psychopath if it's not professionally recognized? Semantics aside, I totally relate with everything I’ve seen posted here including your shattered hopes, desperations, fears, and frustrations dealing with not only a difficult and dangerous child but also a society that is not capable of recognizing the problem and helping us.


Edited by DadofRad (08/16/14 08:30 PM)

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#16415 - 07/20/14 08:59 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi DadofRad, welcome to our community.

I will try my best to answer your questions. I have never really been clear about what is up with diagnosing children; it seems to be all over the map. The test that Hare has for adults has a new test for as early as 13 (a youth version) and that just came out a couple of years ago. Typically, Conduct Disorder (CD) seems to be code for fledgling Psychopaths. There seems to be a cottage industry around the RAD diagnosis. I used to read at their forum, and my general observation was a lot of blame towards the birth parents, and their methods seemed to be to hug it out. I could have read it wrong, but that was my general impression. They have a pretty active forum over at Delphi Forums.

We do have a few parents who are in the same situation as you are in with adopted children so hopefully they might pop in and add their views on the RAD debate. I think a lot of people have fears about diagnosing children. I have to agree with that but if everything else is ruled out what is left? I would think that every step, including what these kids eat would have to be evaluated. For example, we have this explosion of kids with ADHD, and some studies will show that pumping kids full of sugar in the morning makes them less likely to be able to sit still and concentrate. Do they need medications? Do they really have underlying issues, all huge questions? I am also not sure that giving young children drugs while their brains are developing is a good direction but really if someone has one of these kids who am I to say that drugs wouldn’t be a solution.

All in all, it brings up a ton of questions that hopefully we can exchange information about with your situation. I know one thing is for sure I wouldn’t trade places with you for all the tea in China.

There is a lot of confusion over what to name this disorder, it is clear it is in the personality disorder cluster. When I started the forum over 18 years ago I just picked Psychopaths as it seemed like the more accurate term and was more common at the time. Now it seems like people split between Psychopath and Psychopaths. I think in most people's minds the term Psychopath seems more like a well socialized type that is probably less likely to hide around in the bushes killing strangers. The term psychopath seems to define what people think of someone like Ted Bundy. In my mind, the issue is whatever the term the dividing line is they don’t have a conscience. And there is no changing them, we can just change and adapt how we deal with them. Therapy will make the situation worse so what are we left with?

I would like to think there is some clear reason why parents have to struggle and get thought of as being the crazy one in the room, but to date, I really can’t answer that question. Maybe because I have only “studied” what I have observed my mind is more open to things, and I don’t have any reason to hide the truth from anyone.

Di

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#16417 - 07/22/14 05:07 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Thank you for your comments and understanding.





Edited by DadofRad (08/18/14 02:18 PM)

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#16418 - 07/22/14 10:29 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi DadofRad, As I recall only a couple of adoptive parents have talked about giving up their rights. If you click on any members name their posts will come up. If you go to this thread and look for a member named: heartbroken you can click on the name and see the discussion. I think it will depend on your state and a lot of other factors but this person (hearbroken) found it wasn't going to be something that would work as it would put their bio kids at risk.

It is down toward the end of this thread:
[url=http://www.psychopath-research.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4204/5/Observing_Fledgling_Psychopath][/url]


Edited by Dianne E. (07/22/14 10:31 AM)

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#16589 - 05/23/15 06:31 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: ]
DadofRad Offline
member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Thank you for you response. Sorry it has taken so long to respond. We have had our RAD kid in a in therapeutic program and group home for just over a year, but it is ending now. We are afraid of his return and very worried. His behaviors continue to be dangerous. He did more accusing the staff of abuse there than I had seen before. He has also increased his cursing and kicking and attacking adults and children. Additionally he has a history of running away now. It was obvious while he was gone that he really was not attached or missing us, just missing some of the things we do. He now has only RAD and mood disorder diagnosed. The institutions and the doctors were terrible about reporting his behavior and being honest about his dangers. They regularly minimized or did not report some serious conduct. I personally believe he is not RAD but a ASPD. One thing RAD he doesn't have is lack of trust. He knows us and trusts us, he just tries to instigate all the time.

One counselor we had was really good. She recognized he would never work in our family and actually recommended abandoning him at the program and to get a lawyer. It does happen, but it is a criminal charge of felony. After speaking with lawyers we found in our state convictions are rare especially if you have all the dangerous behavior documentation which I have. The other children are usually not taken away, but there is a risk and you never know what type of lawyer you will get. We are considering this for our second SIPP. Also they said the doctor could write a letter that he is unfit for home life (hard to get) in which case you could release him to the foster system without charges.

Questions. How did you find respit? Family and friends.
You mentioned right brain is inactive, have you had her scanned by a neurologist? Can a neurologist detect a Psychopath?
Have you ever institutionalize her? What was the outcome?
Is yours unsafe and attacks others?
Did the skills you learned about RAD help decrease the dangers in the home? If so how?
Has anyone ever found boarding schools with scholarships or re-adoption options feasible?

Thanks DADofRAD

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#16663 - 11/07/15 11:14 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Notmyfault Offline
member

Registered: 11/05/15
Posts: 17
I am answering as a once foster and adopted child myself. As I found more and more family and biological siblings I found there were a lot of personality disordered in the family tree and also a lot of victims of psychopaths. We grew up apart, but have been blown away by this fact. My theory has always been , that I think it is a higher percentage of adopted children i, because I believe it is genetic . Often children in the system have come from those who have become pregnant under often terrible circumstances. Rape, incest, molestation. This is not always the case but it does exist, and often. These children were born this way and then coupled with the fact that adoption in itself depends on having these children bond, but they can't. It can become a nightmare. What should be done with these children? Let's be fair even love can only go so far and I think these situations are less likely to have the denial and drive a natural parent will have for their own blood.

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#16664 - 11/08/15 06:56 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Notmyfault]
Dianne E. Offline

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member

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi Notmyfault, welcome to our community. I am very happy that you have joined us.

Full disclosure here, Notmyfault and I crossed paths many years ago at a site where my forum was hosted. I am very happy to see you again and know that you can really help the conversation.

I know you have an experience that is something we all can learn from. I hope when you are comfortable you can maybe start a discussion thread and tell us more about your early years and experience in the system.

I have this thought that some of these kids end up in care for the reasons you state. I also think they get rejected by the bio parents because of attachment. Perhaps it is the kids who reject the parents? I don't know or in your case, the parents are disordered and don't attach to the kids. It is quite a huge conversation but those are my thoughts. When I used to read over the Delphi forum the major contributors were foster or grandparents. There was a lot of blaming the parents going on so I didn't feel like I was learning the key to this.

What role did the bio parents have and what role did the fledgling psychopathic child have?

Di

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#16665 - 11/09/15 02:54 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
Notmyfault Offline
member

Registered: 11/05/15
Posts: 17
I believe the child who is born psychopathic is unable to bond. This does not mean the bio parents were capable of bonding either as that assumes too much that all parents are alike' You can count more on psychopaths being alike. But if the psychopathic child is also in a dysfunctional home the cocktail can be super explosive. Too often well meaning people think the answer is hitting the child. This behavior just fuels the child's anger. In my case the bonding had been interrupted numerous times. I though am not a psychopath so it caused more self destructive damage and someone who became quite vulnerable to this personality type. My personal story is Atypical. I was born to a mentally disturbed woman who had already left her first 4 children at a babysitters and did not return. She then had My sister and I with a new husband. Our father was a naval Engineer and never home. When I was 9 months old , my 2 year old sister would be left alone in the care of our two great danes. I was left in a dresser drawer with my sister to care for me. as with the others she eventually did not return and because of neighbors hearing the constant crying welfare had been brought in. We were found in total squalor and I was unresponsive and believed to be dead. This was in 1955 before legal abortions were available. Adoptions were far easier to do. Neighbors got together and rescued my sister and I. thru these neighbors we both became adopted, though separately. This information only became available to me within the last 2 years when I found my sister and we pieced our knowledge together. The story of the actual adoption is rather bizarre and I will start a new thread to explain this.

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#16685 - 01/01/16 08:33 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Notmyfault]
DadofRad Offline
member

Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Thanks for replying. I have long suspected biological reasons as the main cause. We know nothing of the birth parents except the mothers first name. However, we know the orphanage provided a lot of one to one care and he actually appeared to be bonded to some care givers and to me when he was a toddler. It is difficult for us not to assume all adoptions are this horrible, but we know they are not. Many do bond and become functional adults. This is why we do not believe RAD is completely accurate for him, but it's as close to his real diagnosis as we can get, apart from conduct disorder which he has also been given. In my judgement, I don't believe psychopaths are made, I think they are born. But I only know my experience.

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#16686 - 01/02/16 08:49 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
BecazofGrace Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/16
Posts: 1
I'm new here & not completely sure this is the best place to post but what you all are talking about is almost a repeat of our last 15 years. We adopted 2 sons, 1/2 brothers, same bio mom. The oldest was 4 yrs, the youngest left his BM at 3 days & was in our care from that point. They are now 17 & 14. The youngest is awesome. I won't bother to detail any issues he's had in the past because they were all due to the trauma caused by his brother.

From the first time we met him we knew..we knew he was hurt, knew he wasn't typical..knew life with him would present challenges. We had no idea. None. We parented him with love, unity as parents, stayed consistent with boundaries...we were "therapeutically parenting". We had one of the BEST behavioral specialists there is. We regularly attended attachment therapy, my husband & I went through training & kept educating ourselves. All the while home schooling, and raising 3 other children.... My husband is also a pastor. We're not perfect by a long shot BUT if there was any chance for this boy I really believe we offered the needed home. We loved this child.

So ... by 10 the DX was ADHD, RAD, FASD & an IQ of 72. School was a bear. Living with him nearly broke me. Then I became pregnant. In his eyes I was weaker than him. He broke my hand. And I was afraid of his lies & CPS. So I covered & said I fell. From that point on I became weaker than him in his eyes, his victim..more than what I had ever been before. He lied to his bro & convinced him we didn't love them & they ran away. Later he admitted his intent was to hurt his brother. They were missing 6 hours. Five months later we called the police because he beat & attempted to rape his brother. He was in juvie for 5 days, released into a temporary shelter until we could secure residential treatment. Two weeks in he broke probation for sexual misconduct. When we got him into RT he was there 18 months. No change, lots of behaviors & admissions of things like raping our dog. Of course these things I type are his "biggies", you all know the day in day out,..lies, poop, pee, self harm, destruction, stealing...etc.

After those 18 months, our state FORCED us to bring him back into our home. With our 3 minor children...By the Grace of God we survived. I do not mean that flippantly. He was home a year. During that time we conducted our home as a RT complete with alarms & a huge amount of restrictions. On one of his times of being hospitalized, during that year, he was DX'ed with conduct disorder.( I should add here while in RT he met a boy with schizophrenia. So he learned the symptoms & came home pretending, quite well, to be schizophrenic. He even got new meds from his new psychiatrist.) He was kicked out of school 15 times in 7 months for violence. He was sexually intimidating me. Threatening physical harm or saying he wanted to kill his father. None of that mattered to the "system". We finally were able to get him back in RT because he set a fire in his room. (Later we discovered multiple fires were set.)

I've skipped so much.

We see him monthly. And every 3 months review his funding with adoption subsidy. Its always a threat that they will try to pull funding. And TRY to force us to bring him back. The RT therapist knows he should never be in any home setting. The state knows. We have met with some ppl in very high places to get doors for RT to open. We've been told our story is high profile. They know he is a danger.

So..genetically both of his bio parents are a mess. Mom has a narcissistic personality disorder among other issues. Dad in & out of prison for theft to sexual violence. Our son suffered a great deal of abuse. Every type. I believe it all plays into his make up.


I'm here...to try to keep ahead of the game. To learn. To not be victimized by him & more importantly to protect my family with knowledge. ANY advice or questions are so welcomed =)

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