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#16792 - 08/23/16 02:32 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
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Hi DadofRad, I can't answer your question from a parents perspective but can add some input from my observations. One of the things that the psychopaths I interviewed listed was the sexual abuse angle to garner support for themselves to be seen as victims. In their cases they would say they had been abused as children. They use these angles to deflect if confronted, like, you don't understand me I have pain because I was abused and the list goes on.

There are a lot of good therapists out there but when a person is in a caring profession such as therapy I think it can help them to side with who they perceive to be the victim. Psychopaths are pros at portraying themselves as the victims in every scenario. I am guessing a lot of them think that "they will grow out of this" behavior when in reality we all know that will never be the case. I can see him working this sexual encounter for all it is worth to him. It will establish him in their minds as the victim. I am wondering who initiated the encounter and we will probably never know.

They know how to get people out of their lives when growing up and the sex card is like gold to them, imo. Portraying the victim while victimizing others. I feel pity for the foster care people because they will probably be next when the situation will work to his advantage. I was amazed at how self aware the three psychopaths I interviewed were, their self reflection was actually very enlightening and frightening. When asked how they got out of of situations and got victims to go their way they were able to list all the ways they have found that work. Some of them were quite amazing.

I have read he is on medications to control things but in all reality sometimes these medications can add to the explosive personality elements. Catch 22 for sure.

I would have to add their behaviors are learned because they are missing those parts that we all have so any actions to present emotion or caring are just skills being honed. Empathy and emotions on their part are all an act, the more socialized the better the act. I suspect his outbursts might be medication enhanced and also he is learning what works and what doesn't. One of them described growing up as learning to push what buttons to get what results. He actually felt like the victim because they had to learn these things that come naturally to us that don't have the gene and got a bit nasty with me on the subject about it.

Di

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#16793 - 08/24/16 07:08 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Thanks Di,
His story is that the other boy exposed himself to my son and then told him to ... He said he did do that but told the foster mother the next day. The other boy had a history and appeared guilty but I do not have his story yet. It's believable in this case, but I do fear he will learn the victim and accusation tactics more now. I know these things happen, especially in a broken foster care system.

You are right about how they learn manipulation. I can't tell you how many people think they have bonded with my son. But he never expresses any emotional concern for them nor even miss someone, including myself. It actually scared me that he had started to express empathy and regret, because I knew it was false, but anyone else would believe it.

I do wonder about his impulsive aggressive outbursts. This does not seem consistent with the psychopath desire to hide his true self and deceive. It's that behavior that gets him out of our home. In the Psychopath next door, she said the agressive violent Psychopath usually goes to Juvie around age 14. I am waiting to see if mine falls in line with that. It's sad to know that is ahead, but otherwise he becomes so self controlled we have to have him back.

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#16794 - 08/24/16 09:49 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
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Hi, I have this nagging feeling that the medications can also be aggravating the situation. Have you tried doing a Google search using terms like: does depakote cause anger issues. I don't recall if that is one of his medications but it is just a suggestion for what terms to search for. Some of these medications may seem to have some results in the initial stages but be quite the opposite in reality.

I would also suggest that you might consider a consultation with Dr. Gacono. He is a brilliant researcher and probably the most published in the field and the only person that Robert Hare is recommending for consultations now that Hare is retiring of sorts. If it were me that would be an option I would consider. I can get you touch with him if you are interested. I don't know if you have had a chance to read my book? While most of the books out there are written by victims most others like Hare and Stout use composite characters. I thought I knew a lot from the victim perspective but pulling back the curtain on how they learn their behaviors from actual psychopaths was very enlightening. It is all calculated and like they said, they have to learn which buttons to push for their desired results. I was not aware of the level of self reflection and calculation that goes into all their moves. The key is to create victims while portraying themselves as the victim in any given situation. The main take away it is all about total control for them.

Di

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#16795 - 08/25/16 06:14 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Sure, I would like to contact the doctor, if possible. As the moderator, you probably have access to my personal email.

When my son was off medication for a few months, his violence, agression, threats, and attacks were about three times worse. The doctor at the time was more of a naturalist, but even she had to admit after 6 months that he did need pychotropic drugs. She also admitted that the effects would only tone down his behaviors, not stop them. He is what he is. Right now, he is so overmedicated, the last assessment I read by a doctor repeatedly mentioned him being tired and lethargic. But if yo cut back the meds, that energy goes toward aggression and outbursts. What you said about control is key. I think he feels in control when he escalates, because he has everyone's full attention and he can make demands and make people fear him.

I read your forward on the site. If you ever get it on audio let me know. I'll order it soon.



Edited by DadofRad (08/28/16 10:38 AM)

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#16796 - 08/25/16 06:55 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
Loc: United States
Hi, I clearly am not a medical Dr. but I do have personal experience with medications because I was put on them many years ago after I lost everything at the hands of a corporate psychopath. The path to getting off of them is a windy road and it takes a very long time. Many times just a few months off of them will not produce any change because the brain takes time to rewire so to speak. I can understand in this case that being highly medicated and lethargic is the only route they might take.

I haven't been able to do an effective audio for my book but have been exploring it. The reason is because the way it is written and there are three voices plus mine so it isn't a regular audio type of book. It will also require a large investment that I can't make at this time. I am the type of person that if I can't do something that will be great I would rather wait until I can meet that goal. I am also concerned that the way they say things which is very interesting might get lost in audio but the concept is still on my mind and if I can figure out how to make it work I will.

Control for psychopaths is like food to the rest of us, they have to have it and will stop at nothing to get it. One guy I interviewed would even circle back to a relationship to really crush the victim further if things didn't end up as he expected them to. Evil knows no bounds.

I will email you the details for Dr. Gacono.

Di

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#16798 - 08/28/16 08:21 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Notmyfault Offline
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Registered: 11/05/15
Posts: 17
The irony of all this is what is now happening with my grandson ( this sons son ) he is 10 and medicated but still awful outbursts of violence, including to animals. Although it is agreed he has his fathers curse, for lack of a better term. Mom tries hard to get him HELP now ( was just in emergency room for kicking out a window). But no one will help. She lives on Mexico border and the future does not look good.

My son had Angry outbursts, but was respected for his non violence. The school actually had him intervene between a KKK guy and fist black male in school. He actually DID diffuse what could have been real bad, and walked away admired by both sides.
The violence came after he owed the cartel....and then he became their hit man.

I also spent my whole motherhood trying to guess what he really meant. I have found this is normal with these guys. The lying is often glib and left to interpretation, even though you deep down know they are messing with your head. This is not normal, don't assume they are victims of themselves... They are not. How is your child on the triad scale?

In my observation after discovering family background it seems there are mainly two personalities going on at all times. The truly insane person, and adult children of these difficult people. They project and usually have a scapegoat to hide behind. If you grew up the scapegoat you may show some of their tendencies and believe it is YOU. That creates all the unhappiness. Then unknowingly you start partnering with these pers. disordered predators

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#16799 - 08/28/16 02:48 PM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Notmyfault]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
By triad, I see from your past posts, you mean bed wetting, fire starting and animal abuse. My son frequently did wet the bed. More often, he would soil his pants and even do so vindictively. Once he threw his soiled pants at his mother. He snuck into our bedroom and urinated on our floors too. His room always swelled of urine, even after shampooing multiple times. I finally, pulled up his carpet and found the floor boards had been saturated, as he had used some corners as an alternate bath room. We always kept matches and lighters locked up. We became too smart to not protect ourselves after we really learned how he could be. He did try to start a fire at Grandma's house with bathroom candles, while visiting. We got rid of our dog when he was a toddler. The dog did have a broken leg and I always wondered if he had done that. He has been known to throw lizards in fans or in the water for fish to eat. I did get him a beta fish which he killed the first night, although he did appear remorseful (manipulation?)

The two personality types you mentioned, I know as codependent and addict. I have often played the codependent when he was very young. I often felt like he had me wrapped around his fingers. He would instigate his mother and then try get my sympathy when she got mad. He would do things behind my back that only she would see. Eventually, I became wise to what he was doing and always took her side, but for a while we had a lot of arguments, which I'm sure he enjoyed. Now, I see him playing the same game with his foster parents. His foster Dad just had a conversation with me saying how he's really a good kid and we shouldn't give up on him. But he admitted his wife sees our point of view better. The truth is he doesn't have the capacity for goodness because he doesn't have a conscience. He can appear to be good when he is in control of himself, but those who really know him, know it's all part of the show. I've actually gotten really depressed about it because the codependent me still wants to help and rescue him, but I know there is nothing I can really do here except continue to keep him out of our home, so he doesn't harm us. But releasing him to the system, I know most people will be fooled by him, judge us, and will continue to pressure us to take him back. Also, I know that in this dysfunctional system he will do worse than with us.

So your son and grandson have explosive outbursts too. This confirms that outburst are part of the package. Poor behavior control, and impulsiveness is part of the criteria. I know what you mean about your daughter in law not finding anyone who will help. I found you just have to help yourself and keep hospitalizing him every time he does something dangerous. Do this enough and you should be able to get some doctors or social workers to support in sending him to residential treatment (RT) or in our case to justify not picking him up from hospitalization.


Edited by DadofRad (08/28/16 04:49 PM)

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#16800 - 08/29/16 10:27 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Notmyfault Offline
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Registered: 11/05/15
Posts: 17
Yes the outbursts are pretty on going with these children. I still get the guilts, was just discussing putting him ( my grandson) in boxing, he is attracted to high risk, I would like to see if challenging sports will help. While raising my son , many well meaning people offered very uninformed advice. Forums like this are very necessary as parents who have not experienced this can misread everything going on. You need the support. I put my son in for hosp. But don't feel it ever helped. Mainly because society is just now coming to understand a disorder that is behind everything that seems to destroy lives. I have come to believe these temperaments are on some level necessary to keep life sustained, because when it comes to the ability to sustain horrendous obstacles, they are also good at that. If their energy is capable of being put in the right direction, these are also often the Hero s . Even serial killers like Bundy, had also accomplished heroic things. He risked his life to save a 3 yr old drowning toddler. Maybe some of the answers is trying to find a place for them, at least some in society. What are your thoughts on this? Everyone has pain in life, with a RAD in the picture...you will face your pain plus all the pain that is truly theirs.

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#16801 - 08/31/16 06:07 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: Notmyfault]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
I read in the Socio Path Next door, these people make good soldiers because they have no conscience or guilt to hold them back from taking another life. However, I'm sure their instability also make them difficult to trust. Without being trustworthy, there is really little hope for their relationships or vocation. We tried Karate and other sports, but he never had the grit to stick with anything that required work of him for more than a couple of weeks. Because my son is violent and aggressive at his worst, I always believed that physically aggressive sports would feed that. He already kicks people during a fit, the last thing we need is him learning how to make those kicks lethal. Yes, I know these sports teach control and discipline, but remember that psychopaths are not teachable, especially when it comes to human traits like self-control, discipline, compassion, and empathy.

No, hospitalizing him doesn't really help him much, but it gets him out of my house. Further, they will be able to adjust medications in a hospital environment much more effectively and safely than in your home. Also, the more you have records of his dangerous behaviors the more people take you seriously when you try to place him somewhere. If and when you have to go to court, you have records of all the things he has done, and all the things you have tried to do to get him help.

I no longer really believe he is RAD and it is currently ruled out on his diagnosis. He appears attached, because he knows what to say, but he really has no emotional attachment to us. Also, from what I have heard on RAD, RAD kids do respond to continued attachment therapy, which he does not (except for show).

I do not know, and barely care anymore, what place my son will have in society. At this point my highest hope for him is that he not become a killer or abuser. He has already emotionally, mentally, and physically abused my family to the point my only goal is to be free from him. All I know is that I have to keep him out of my home, or my home will not have peace. Whatever compassion I have for him (and I still do), I have to repress and think about what is best for my innocent children and my wife who don't deserve to live in an abusive home. As husband and father my role is to provide and protect my family, this my place.


Edited by DadofRad (12/01/16 08:33 PM)

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#16829 - 10/30/16 11:05 AM Re: Adopted Child & RAD [Re: lee176]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
I'm pretty thick skinned after all I've been through, but please reread your post and try to be a little more sensitive. You were practically calling people who adopt and people who try to learn how to live with a psychopath idiots.

In retrospect, I would not have adopted him. But who would have known. Our psychologist says he would only find one in every 1000 clients a psychopath like my son. This is rare and there are dozen's of adoption success stories for every heartbreak like ours. When we adopted we were warned about RAD, but it was presented in a manner where we assumed or hoped it could be treated. Our society needs to do a better job at teaching what a psychopath is, not only for adoptive parents but for anyone who may be victimized. Even movies try to depict villains now as not mentally unfixable, but often as people who are just misunderstood or reacting to past wounds. That is just not true of psychopaths who are societies real villains. Until we understand that these people just cannot think like normal people, feel like normal people, or change their ways, we cannot protect ourselves from them.

I have a friend who owns a fish camp in the Everglades.He grew up there, and knows gators and the environment well. Whenever a new gator comes to live around his house he jumps in the water and wrestles it. He is not being stupid, but he is actually showing the alegator who is boss. If the alegator does not submit, then he relocates the creature. He has to do this or the alegators will become territorial and become a threat to his family. I am glad there are people who know how to handle these animals and can safely keep them under control and relocate them when necessary. Some do so out of necessity, and some do so as their career and passion. I think the parallel is obvious.



Edited by DadofRad (11/01/16 08:46 PM)

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