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#16902 - 05/10/17 06:32 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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I was talking a bit about RAD and Conduct Disorder today on the show that will air on Tuesday, thanks to your suggestion. I have read them all but not in one sitting and the interesting thing is they all lead to no conscience. I wonder where people think these kids come from, dropped from the sky. I know it is controversial, I remember a few years ago some members leaving the forum because I was allowing and talking to parents who needed support. If you think living or working for one is bad enough, mention you think a kid is a psychopath and people pretty much go sideways.

I can understand your need for isolation and it is a horrible thing on top of everything else you have to go through. I can also imagine your entire family must be struggling with severe PTSD which can only make things worse.

I hope they keep him out of your home. Who believes you? Do family members understand or are you left all alone to deal with it?

Di

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#16904 - 05/13/17 07:26 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
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I've been listening to your podcast. psychopath in you life. They are really good. People always want to answer the question, how did this happen or why did this happen? There is so much evidence now for psychopaths being genetically predisposed, I still wonder why it is so hard for people accept that a child might just be a psychopath and there is no reason for it but his genes. We are not perfect parents but we have two other birth children who are kind, smart, sensitive and the biggest mental problems they have is processing the stress of dealing with their adopted brother.

We have the support of a really good social worker, our family psychologist, our lawyer, and I think some of the legal advocates for my son assigned to the case are beginning to see the truth about him, although they have to keep advocating for reunification. Personally, family members no longer judge us and I think get it, but don't fully understand. My wife has found that educators often get it because they are used to working with kids like this. However, his teachers usually don't get it because they are being manipulated by him. It's just really hard sharing your heart about it because the conclusions we come to seem heartless and hopeless, but that is the reality of a psychopath. Now that he was released of course many want to say he is getting better and push us to conclude the same, we have just been there too many times to get hopeful. Even the aleged improvements are often manipulation.

We just had an incident this week where he was bit by a neighborhood dog at the foster home, yet he wanted me to buy him a leash so he could take another neighbors dog on a walk. I did so but had reservations. He is not a dog lover, nor is he compassionate toward the elderly dog owner, but he pretended to be. I reported to the case workers that he had a leash, but I was unsure of his intentions for the dog or for the leash. Sure enough when the case worker investigated, he was trying to keep the leash a secret, and cursed out the case worker for asking. He was obviously up to something with this and didn't want people asking about it. I suspect he wanted to abuse the dog or use the leash to hurt himself or another. The sick thing is I wanted him to have the leash so he would get caught doing something psychotic. This is the type of heartless conclusions I must come to in order to keep him out of my home. How could I share this with a friend who would then think I am the monster? I have left him to abuse, manipulate, and hurt unsuspecting strangers rather than to let my family be further victimized by him. Should I feel guilty, heroic, or just pragmatic? Or should I just stop feeling and continue doing what I have to do?


Edited by DadofRad (05/14/17 07:00 AM)

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#16905 - 05/14/17 05:41 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi, DadofRad, thank you for your kind words, it is quite difficult but with time I am sure I will improve. I am really trying to focus on content so hopefully, while I find my legs people will understand. My four legged girl Lynda has entered the recording a couple of times with her squeak toy. My other boy Marcos just goes into the room and is silent. They are struggling also because they don't know why I am in the room talking to myself;) I am of the thought that if we don't keep speaking out this subject will just dissolve into more confusion than already exists.

Your son was 17 months old. Was it through an agency I assume? I have always wondered about adoptions and it seems like we only read about the bad ones so to speak and not the successes. I wonder what got them into the position to be adopted, was the family wiped out and no one to care for? I have this theory and it is only something I have been thinking about. When I used to read the RAD group on Delphi back in the day when forums were active I started wondering about all the discussion there when they seemed to blame the parents. I wonder if it is possible that the child shows no attachment so they, in fact, are the ones doing the rejecting and not bonding, not the other way around. Then if you put a parent with the same gene into the mix they would both be rejecting each other. Maybe that is why they end up in care if it isn't for some other acts of nature reason?

I think it was the Mayo Clinic RAD piece I read on the show that will show air this Tuesday that they pretty much didn't place any blame on orphanages etc. Typically people seem to blame the birth parent for not being there to bond or in some cases the institutions. I pretty much resist that theory because a lot of people can have some very alarming childhoods and don't end up being psychopaths. It is from the first breath, they don't just drop from the sky.

I am glad you have what support you do have. It is a situation that I don't know how I would respond. I think as far as the leash you are just being honest in your actions. There has been a pattern that every six months these reports are minimizing his behavior and the threat of him returning to your home must be a very conflicting position. I do find it alarming that he is allowed to have access to neighborhood pets. Maybe that is how they are gauging his "progress"?

I can only guess but if it were me I would do what I had to do to protect my family. If you donít protect your family, who will? You are their strength and that is to be admired and not criticized. I donít think it is ever anyone elseís right to criticize when they are not in your position. The old saying walk a mile in my shoes comes to mind.

I think people reject the concept of children and women in their thinking about psychopaths.

All my best,
Di

NOTE: For anyone new reading, you can click on members names and their posts will show up so you can read their stories.

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#16906 - 05/14/17 07:06 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
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My son came from a country where single mothers are not accepted so she either has to give him up or choose a life of singleness and poverty for the rest of her life. He was given up at birth and was in an intitution where he got a high level of care and most other children from there do have success stories. We were very attachment oriented parents and did everything to create strong physical a and emotional bonds. How sad to find in the end that he was incapable of that love. after studying him and trying to fix him for so many years, this makes the most sense -psychopath.

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#16907 - 05/15/17 11:55 AM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi, Thank you for answering my question. I think that orphanages or care facilities can get a bad reputation that is undeserved. I remember years ago a documentary about the orphanage situation in some country, I forget which one that painted a pretty grim picture. I hope that people reading here will not get disturbed and start thinking that adoption = psychpath. I know we have had a few adoptive parents here over the years but in balance, we have had an equal if not more comments from bio parents.

I can say that parents have been the hardest to continue to hear from. There are many over the years and like I mentioned above, please just click on their names and select "View Posts" and you can see what they have talked about.

There is still a lot of work to do to communicate about this issue. Hugging them will in fact not make them better, well it will make them better at disguising what they really are and give them better tools to hide behind. One thing they have known for years is that therapy does indeed make the situation worse. So then you combine this with the only effort out there is to get these kids into therapy I guess we will have a smaller amount of them entering the prison population but what that translates to is anyone's guess. Does it pass each generation to the next, does it skip a generation, so many questions, so few answers.

I am thankful that you continue to tell your story. It is an important one and it appears by the views that quite a few people are reading about these issues with young psychopaths.

Di

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#16908 - 05/18/17 04:35 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline

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It seems like RAD is starting to get the attention of the media. I was doing keywords for my new podcast and RAD ranks right after the word Psychopath.

This is a pretty good article but keep in mind these checklists are only for a beginning point. The real way is by observing behavior but we are making progress by getting such a lengthy article posted.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/


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#16909 - 05/20/17 09:16 AM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Regarding the podcast on diagnosis (5), My son did have ODD for a while. Only a couple doctors suggested CD. Even that is very stigmatized in child counseling circles. One doctor, who I disagreed with told me bluntly he is not CD because he is not a psychopath. How about just evaluating the criteria? ODD fits but doesn't cover the manipulation, gas lighting, and lack of a conscience or attachment

The article you sent is good for discussion. However, it makes it seem that these characteristics are easy to track. These kids are so manipulating, they can fool experts which I know personally is true. I found it interesting that even though the guy who went through the program was acting above the law now, he was still making his wife and child miserable and putting them at risk. I can certainly see this happening with my child. I wonder also how much of the guys "remorse" was contrived. My child is largely unsupervised now and hanging out with kids in a lower income neighborhood. I wonder how long he can last without getting in real trouble or how many things he's doing now that nobody is reporting. I do hear of minor incidents, but those are just the one's adults know about. My son does seem to respond to a points system and rewards to some degree, but it was just impossible to maintain in a home setting and be fair to the other children. Also, I found that whenever I offered him reward for good behavior it would backfire and he would miss the reward and then have a tantrum for missing the reward.

Dianne, I have a request, could you compile a list of recommended books and movies. I know Hare mentions several. My list is:

Books:
The Psychopath next door, Martha Stout
psychopaths in our lives, Dianne Emmerson
Without a conscience, Hare
Price of silence, Liza Long (about childhood mental illness in general, not sure if I agree with her fully. She got people talking about it with this blog: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16..._n_2311009.html)
Stranger beside me, Ann Rule (next on my list)

Movies:
We need to talk about Kevin
Gaslight
Bad Seed
Stranger beside me (haven't seen yet)
I know Hare mentioned several movies and you mentioned a new Bundy film was coming out.



Edited by DadofRad (05/20/17 10:03 AM)

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#16910 - 05/20/17 01:57 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2788
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Hi, I keep stressing to not rely on checklists because of those reasons.

A great place to first check for books is [url=www.biblio.com]www.biblio.com[/url]
I buy from Better World Books there, they do literacy things and you can usually get a good used copy for the price of shipping $3.99 or so. And never had a problem with them.

I will work on the list. As far as true crime I recommend Ann Rule or Jack Olsen. They really go into the psychology of the family life etc. the very best. Jack Olsen has a great book called Son about a socialized psychopath who came from a fairly wealthy established family. I won't give the book away but clearly, he got the gene from his mother. Another about a female psychopath is Ann Rule's Bitter Harvest. Both she and her husband were Drs.

I want to check into the We Need to Talk about Kevin book to see how it is compared to the movie. Sometimes these book adaptations go a bit off the rails.

I tried to buy a copy of the book that Bundy's girlfriend of 7 years, while he was on the killing spree, wrote. The cheapest price I could find was $140 or so it is off my list. I don't hold much hope for the movie if it is just about the girlfriend. I would like them to talk about is the horrific family life which Ted says was wonderful. There is some pretty compelling thought that his father was his grandfather who was a very violent person. I would venture to say if this is true the gene came from him. I talked about that today how complicate the reporting can be with family, professionals etc. Heck, the girlfriend stuck by him for all those years, even Ann Rule was on his side for a long time.

This is the transcript and the video http://www.pureintimacy.org/f/fatal-addiction-ted-bundys-final-interview/

http://crimefeed.com/2015/06/ted-bundy-grew-thinking-mother-sister-dark-revelations-killers-family/ This article talks about his actual home life which is no way close to the interview above how Ted describes things.

I mentioned this forum in an upcoming episode to suggest that if parents want some support this would be the place to check out.

Di

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#16919 - 05/31/17 06:19 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: Dianne E.]
DadofRad Offline
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
Thanks Dianne, I would still like to see more of an official list. I listened to Hare's book on audio so I did not catch all the movies/books he referenced. I really liked the Bad Seed movie, but I know more were mentioned.

On Friday night I took my sons's cell phone from him due to the inappropriate pictures and posts I saw on Facebook and Instagram from him. A child from school had given it to him and in 3 weeks he had become very addicted to it. He sobbed almost out of control for 40 minutes. I got him to the Dr.s. office and tried to calm him down. At one point, he walked out of the office and the Dr. was about to call the police. But I ran after him. He came back and calmed down and spoke to the Dr. privately. I had promised him that I would try to return the phone after I figured out how to put child safety on it. For the most part, he was upset because he wanted to text his girlfriend.


After reviewing their texting conversation, this is what I found:

She was sexually propositioning him for video sexting.

He was asking to get together with her for sex.

They had multiple video conversations.

He had very manipulative and lying behaviors: threatening to kill himself multiple times (if she left him), he pretended his Mom had been killed by thugs, he had his leg broken by them, and he had lied to cops on her behalf. He claimed to be 14 and also 11.

She also threatened to kill herself and claimed that she had ran away and the cops were looking for her.

The school reported that they had been teaching Internet Security and that it sounded like he had taken their advice and used it to manipulate his girlfriend (specifically threatening to kill himself). The lying and manipulation was laughable because it was so unbelievable, but it shows how he is testing and refining his skills. He is only 13 now, imagine those same skills refined as an adult. He was able to keep from becoming violent or threatening which is good for him, bad for us. If he continues that level of self control, we may have a hard time defending our case in court. Next court is in August. Most likely we will still be able to argue for more time regardless of how things progress.

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#16920 - 06/02/17 01:42 PM Re: RE: Adopted child and RAD [Re: DadofRad]
Dianne E. Offline

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Hi DadofRad,

I have said this many times, I just don't know how you do it.

I can't say for certain because there are not any studies that I am aware of but it is my belief that this suicide thing is a ploy and tactic. I think with "normal" people it can be a cry for help. I just don't see that with a psychopath. I have heard this being used too many times in the past to believe it.

Do they sometimes commit suicide, certainly but I think the number is pretty low. I think when they are starting to lose their grasp on a situation the threat to commit suicide seems to work to get the victim back in the picture.

Will this facility even allow him to have the phone back? I am kind of surprised that he got away with having it in the first place but I don't know the procedures at these places. It seems like a horrible idea all the way around.

I will get to the book list when I can. I think we have some lists here on the forum so will certainly look into it. I won't be able to get started on it for awhile. I just ordered the book, We Need to Talk About Kevin. I am curious to see how it compares to the movie version.

Di

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