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#10101 - 10/09/10 09:59 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: clearblue]
Dianne E. Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2789
Loc: United States
There is now a Youth version. Normally they seem to originally get a diagnosis of conduct disorder, i.e. your kid is a psycho when younger and in trouble.

The kids in custody would be easy to study, the ones living next door would be a much tougher thing. Probably couldn't even try to discuss this with the parents. Who would admit their kid could be the future Ted Bundy or a white collar criminal?

The conscience forms between 3 -5 years old.

Shockingly the general Population hasn't been figured out how many there really are. Personally I think the numbers are a bit low. Hare did the stats and that was the last one, no update since. I would think that kind of information being updated would be of interest to a researcher. Hare did his figures based on the prison population. I about fell off my chair when I confirmed this information awhile ago.

#10102 - 10/09/10 12:24 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Dianne E.]
clearblue Offline

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 156
I believe the numbers are higher but it would be hard to determine them.
They use truancy and daytime crime comparisons to arrive at a figure. Then use the percentage of that figure. It would not be very accurate though because a lot of fledglings may not be truant. Especially if they have a fan club. Some I believe are showing high Psychopath traits are known as really good students. The news is loaded with stories of "he was such a good kid" reports following some shocking crime. You do not hear many "he was in trouble all the time" stories.

There is a website where you can see the homes in the US, that convicted Psychopath's lived in.
It says some things about their horrid crimes.

Gacy had his mother living with him, in his house during his murdering years,
his wife and kids moved out before he filled his house with victims bodies.

I remember a guy finally got caught taking his wife out on the lake and after she drowned he collected insurance and remarried. Then did this to the next two wifes before he got caught.
A witness actually noticed him moving his raft away from the overboard wife.

I have seen that look you describe. It is vacant. My parent had this look,at times. I hated to make eye contact with him. I seen the other side.
I spent my life raised by the Psychopath. My other parent used me as the bartering aid. She thought I was a security for her. She thought that he could not lie,cheat or do bad things with his own child in tow. She was wrong.
He was more dangerous, who would think a parent with a small kid poses any threat.
That false security is a victims connection to a perpetrator.
He had an alibi.
I am sure other Psychopath parents are out there using their kids, in full view.
One vacant look from a Psychopath will keep a kid quite too. Makes you feel a deep terror, frozen in fear.
Like a stranger is inside the Psychopath and just used his eyes to look at you.

The look a Psychopath gives you pushes your thoughts,truths beyond the sub conscious.
Your truth went in to a black hole. You wish you could escape with it.
Its hard to pull yourself together. It is fear.
You just faced death personified.
You wonder when he will return for your life.
His job symbolism is the reaper.
When he gets off work he goes home.

#12758 - 03/05/12 05:29 PM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
Mug42Long Offline

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 16
Dear Jan

My Psychopath mum madand (me, a diluted Psychopath blush):

I know I have inherited Psychopath traits and fight against the urge and have just realised all of this Psychopath stuff. I just thought my mother was a controller and behaved badly. At XMas the penny dropped and I've not seen her since. This is all new to me. I have answered how we act/feel. It may help you understand more, talking to a Psychopath who knows and wants to escape the Psychopath thing, LOL!

Likes one to one relationships otherwise triangulates or acts out - madyes, monopolises me, tries to exclude my friends, what I want to do ( blushI used to want exclusive relationships and may have pointed out faults in friends of the other person)
Doesn’t sing, dance or listen to music - she does, and plays it, used to go to clubs to dance (I don't sing and would not clap when more Psychopath, when young. I dance a little with my daughter)
Doesn’t tell or understand jokes - yes (I don't find them funny, but will find weird things funny)
Asks if I’m being sarcastic, joking or I really mean something - yes, gets 'hurt' (I thing people are having a go at me when they say things that I feel are unacceptable)
Doesn’t laugh at humorous TV programmes but will laugh at people hurting themselves - maybe, watches gameshows and gets angry when I get bored (don't find them humourous, don't like hurt, maybe I did when I was younger)
Never relates humorous incidents that have happened unless being malicious - yes (me, sorta)
Sneers rather than laughs - YES!! (me, no, I laugh now, probably sneered when young)
Uses other people’s expressions and even other people’s questions - probably, I have only woken up and not seen her since (me, not now, don't know about when I was young)
Repeats what he has heard other people say as though they were his own thoughts/opinions - yes (me, yes but add my stuff, we all do that?)
Copies other people’s behaviour or way of doing things as though it is his own (me, I don't think so)
Reads only fantasy books never ones about people and relationships - does not read, does not relate to relationships (me, I wouldn't waste time, I like non-fiction, crime, etc, Psychopath!!)
Hypervigilant-needs to know everyone’s business even when they are out of sight - YES! (me, no, don't care)
Wants to know what everyone has done throughout the day when he has been at school - wasn't interested in me, just, did I behave (me, just if my daughter is upset and needs help to deal with it, I just give advice)
Never has dreams or nightmares - screams in sleep, occassionally (me, sometimes, dream a bit)
Never gets up in the night (even for the toilet-still wets the bed) - No, she gets up ( have trained my bladder, but will get up)
Never discusses memories of anything from the past - yes but has been the victim of others (remember bad ones mostly, but that's a survive mechanism in the brain?)
Does facial contortions when being spoken to - yes
Never strokes the cat but will pick it up and drop it - she seems to like animals (me, don't like cats, they use you)
Terrified of dogs and other peoples’ cats - no (me, no)
Terrified of water even the shower - no, but can't swim (me, no)
Refuses to wash, clean teeth or change clothes but gets annoyed if told he smells - no, must have good grooming to appear attractive to others (me, no)
Never comments on beautiful scenery, sunsets, rainbows, pictures etc doesn’t seem to notice anything of beauty - probably (me, definately no)
Never praises anybody or anything - YES, YES, or praises others kids/family, as if saying we are crap (I will if they are exceptional, otherwise if it's their job..... If I feel someone is being mistreated, I will over-praise to help with esteem and give the abuser the finger)
Constantly asks the time even when wearing a watch - never noticed (me, won't wear a watch)
Asks ridiculous questions he obviously knows the answers to and repeatedly when the same situation arises again - Yes
Never expresses any feelings for anybody even his grandmother who dotes on him - loves and supposedly cries for her abusive mother. Was that saying, she loved me, you don't, me victim? (me if I didn't want to do something, but I know mostly everything, INTJ personality)
Never thinks of doing something nice for anybody even to repay their generosity - may do, just to appear nice
Never helps around the house and gets aggressive when asked - not noticed (I do, but not enough)
Bodges chores so he won’t be asked to help with anything - yes, you never showed me, I don't know, I forget, your fault (no, I would not have anyone think badly of me being slack)
Looks, acts and sounds a lot younger than 13 years old, very babyish manner including speech - no (me, no)
Closes the blinds and takes all his clothes off to go to the toilet - closes every blind in the house, prison (me, not really)
Stands so close to his father when we are out that it is difficult to move - not noticed (me, dead now)
Steals things however trivial - has done (me, have done)
Never cries - no, cries for affect, seems staged (I have Psychopath traits and even when beaten/hurt would not cry. I would never give them what they want, would not show emotions, would not lower myself. I cry now)
Never shows any sadness even when others are very upset or in pain - if does feins it and sounds ingenuine (I used to think crying was indulgent, they aren't crying for the lost one, they've gone, it's about them and what they are missing out on)
Has an addiction to chocolate and will spend all his money on it and hides to eat it - likes chocolate (so do I)
Never shared his chocolate or anything else with anyone - does, but she is an adult

Edited by Mug42Long (03/05/12 05:32 PM)

#12801 - 03/14/12 11:39 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
dreama Offline

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 18
I wanted to post a comment for any parent of a child suspected of having a personality disorder, behavioral disorder or worse, a diagnosis:

I don't know if my earlier posts from last year are still available.
I sincerely and empathetically want to convey that I have been (and still am) in your shoes.
In my lowest moments, I grieve and feel resentment, anger and remorse that I 'allowed' my ex to rob me of over 31 years of my life (starting at age 16). He is currently incarcerated (again).

I have two sons, now 15 & 16.
Both have been variously diagnosed (since the ages of 7 & 8) with ADD, ADHD, ODD, Bi-Polar, Conduct disordered, fledglings, etc.
Their father has been diagnosed AntiSocial. So has their older brother (age 22, different mother), and their dad's brother (a hedonist and convicted twice of child molestation), and their 2 male cousins on their father's side. Although my ex's father was never officially diagnosed, there is little doubt the apples did not fall far from the tree.
There obviously exists some 'dark' genetic component. Of all these males, it is important to recognize that (except for my ex & his brother and my two sons) all these males have been raised by different women, in different geographical locations, spanning 3 generations. Every male has lengthy criminal backgrounds, except for my two sons (yet? - God willing, not ever?).

In fact, the state wanted to remove my younger son and send him to an RTC (residential treatment facility).
Although my life has been HELL, and I have disintegrated from a hard working, ethical, moral, empathetic, successful, and healthy woman to a shell of what I was, I could not YET give up on my sons.

I am not a superior individual nor do I think I am a better mother than any of these males had.
I am just a fighter, I guess?
I love my sons with all my heart.
I have always tried to concentrate on the fact I love them, not their behaviors.
I had to do that, or I would have (literally) killed myself a long time ago.

So trust me, I GET IT - how you are feeling.

I could write pages and pages of details I have experienced over the years, months, weeks and days.
In fact, my youngest son physically attacked me last weekend.
But I try to remain strong, centered, loving and focused.

I am not a martyr or a fool-hardy woman just asking to be victimized.
After 2 years, and countless doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, agencies, neurologists, medications, etc, I have been enlightened: my sons are not fledgling AntiSocials. They are ASD. Very high functioning ASD's. Brilliant in many areas, in fact. Developmentally stunted however. For those that are unfamiliar, I am talking about Autistic Spectrum Disordered. Some call it Asperger's - though I find that label can mislead a significant population away from the truth of the disorder. There is a SPECTRUM.

I leave this information for you in the hopes of helping even one family recognize the mistakes I made earlier which have caused irreversible trauma to not only me, but my sons especially. You see, I am also ASD, come to find out. Just diagnosed at 46 years old. I didn't get the 'meanie' version (as I relate it). But my lack of identifiable disorder and lack of ABILITY to recognize and rebuff the negative aspects presents present in another ASD limited the quality of life I would experience.

My salvation came only after working intensely with a Godsend of a therapist for 16 months, spending several hours a week with her. After 9 months, we really began dissecting the apparent behaviors from what could be inducing such behaviors. Required 100's of hours of my own self-introspection that was guided and gently overseen. Hopeless turned into a realization that I was unable to effectively communicate details of my own life and emotions because I 'trained' myself to NOT be self aware of my physical body - that is how I coped & managed life.

In the end, I was able to identify MANY causes for behaviors in myself and thus, was better equipped to peel back the layers that helped to explain my son's as well. Yu want to talk about Light bulbs going off! lol

Is it okay now?
Scars take a long time to heal - especially the scars of a parent living in distrust of you, not being able to 'connect' with you and thus even coming to fear you. We simply did not understand their where worlds inside of us each that were so very hidden and buried, thus not perceived by others. It was lonely and frightening for us of us. Because we are ASD, our ABILITY to forgive was hindered because we were unable to ACCEPT. It is after all, a developmental delay. I am 46 and my learning ability has grown, along with time and experience.

I can only wait, hope and pray, that time will afford my sons the same?
I don’t mean to leave this comment to invalidate any person nor confuse.
Be gentle with yourself and understand that you ARE strong and capable and you WILL get through these days of horror. The way I look at it is this: NT kids are a bear nowadays, lmao. We just have more challenges.
The way to get through it is to go through it, right?

So while I have no quick remedy for your current situations, I can only say that KNOWING what you are working with is half the battle. For me, it is not EASIER on a day by day basis sometimes. But it IS getting a little bit better every day. For my family, the major challenge is the lack of available resources to assist because I am already 46 and my sons late teens. The earlier intervention can be provided, the better. It is not too late for my sons, but now that I am unemployed, their ages and the lack of available support negatively influences us. That is why I make a plea to any parent to spend time researching ASD and if you suspect your child could possibly be affected with the disorder > RUN, don't walk > to locate an autism specialist for an evaluation ASAP!

Early detection is the critical variable in your quest to live as quality an existence as possible & to provide the same for your child(ren). In any case, a COMPETENT thorough evaluation can assist you in determining your best course of action for you and your child and/or family.
God Bless you all always - you are not alone.

#12921 - 03/24/12 02:12 AM Re: Observing Fledgling Psychopaths [Re: Anonymous]
kezza Offline

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 10
Hi Jan, I suspect I'm dealing with a fledgling narcissist but I'm not sure; he's soon to start talking to our school psych at his teacher's recommendation. He's eight. I have a definite, absolutely clearly psychopathic partner, his father, still in our life because I can't safely get rid of him yet. My son's half-sister is also definitely suffering Narcissistic Personality Disorder. These things are believed to be genetic. Her symptoms echo what you've outlined. She would smile, sneer, but I never heard her laugh out loud joyfully. I've never known anyone so curious (nosy, we said), manipulative, vain or selfish or cruel to her siblings, but I always was aware of a massive insecurity; the changing clothes in hiding, bed-wetting till about age 10, stirring up trouble with her siblings at every opportunity (she was constantly bored and dissatisfied with life and felt she had to make it more interesting). Do these sound like your child's traits?
She is also very charming to those she wants to manipulate (such as me) and we have a great rapport; she has no idea that I know what's going on, of course. I dread the day she has children. She doesn't seem to like children at all, yet she has always insisted that she will have at least 8, that they will go to such and such a school and there will be four boys, four girls etc. I shudder for any she does have!!

But I was very interested in the characteristics you outlined, which I saw covered in a recent documentary about psychopaths and psychopathy in children. Have you had him assessed, perhaps through the school so you don't have to pay? I think you must! His symptoms are startling. It also springs to mind similarities with my nephew's Asperger's Syndrome, except for a few, which are closer to psychopathy according to what I've read and seen. It would be a great thing if you could have him assessed, as then you'd know what to do; that's why I'm doing it. I've read that narcissism is the precursor to psychopathy, that traumas and frustrations in their lives leads them up the scale to the latter. I have yet to confirm that.

So far, my son is showing an inability to lose at games (is totally destroyed by that), bossiness with other kids, inability to share, and his ability to empathise seems to be decreasing rapidly, this past year in fact. I seem to be suddenly losing my sweet boy. I hope something can be done to prevent this descent.

Have yours assessed! Good luck!

#12922 - 03/24/12 02:35 AM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: Damaskrose]
kezza Offline

Registered: 03/19/12
Posts: 10
Hi, I just wanted to say you must not beat up on yourself this way. I believe you could not have changed a thing. All you would have done, which would have been worthwhile though, is saved yourselves some of the bewilderment and distress. You'd have known and predicted what you were dealing with. My son appears to be developing this narcissism (he's 8) and soon to be counselled; I do not expect change. But I do think I'll learn how to reduce the potential damage. His half-sister nearly destroyed their family; she is definitely NPD. Now at 18, she is charming and arranging her life through university as she wants it to be; she'll go on to manipulate and hurt others outside the family now. They never had her assessed, and went through the same trauma and bewilderment. In fact, she even managed to break up her mother's new relationship, which then meant the selling of the house they'd bought together etc. It's a pity they gave in to her so much.

I'll be on to my son's tricks and ready to circumvent them a lot. Having him assessed and diagnosed will also help any women he takes up with; if they need help to determine what's going on, the history will be there. So it's worth doing. But because I've read so much about the genetic causes about this condition, I can say that I'm sure you could not have changed the course of its development; nor can I. The amygdala in their brains just doesn't function; researchers have not been able to find a way to stimulate it. That's the area of the brain responsible for emotions.

I will try to teach my son what I can of empathy; but what he acts on will ultimately be up to him.

God help us all!

#16292 - 04/09/14 04:27 PM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: ]
Dianne E. Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2789
Loc: United States
Hi heartbroken, she may be starting to use forms of gaslighting which as time go on will be used as a tool to destabilize others and have control.

People who gaslight do things like move your keys around (as a simple example) and get you to start thinking you are crazy when you go looking for them.


#16330 - 04/23/14 06:51 PM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: Dianne E.]
Dianne E. Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 2789
Loc: United States
A RAD story: RAD video story

#16428 - 08/07/14 07:13 AM Re: Observing Psycho [Re: ]
Tangent Offline

Registered: 08/04/14
Posts: 8
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: heartbroken
Wow, I could really relate to your passive aggressive games. Our psychopath child has mastered that. Yes, hiding other children's school work to see them get in trouble for losing it, or taking their things just like you would to hold as a trophie. Yes, creating all kinds of drama so she could sit back and enjoy the different chaos she made with everyone. If they have a smile on their face, you can bet it isn't because of happiness, but she is feeling control (demonic smile). Psychopaths respect no one. They are so narcissistic that they see everyone as stupid but themselves. We got our daughter tons and tons of neurofeedback. I even saw a healthy normal child at one point, but she went back and turned that right hand hemisphere of the brain off. She likes the evil rather than peace and happiness. Her brain scans show this right hemisphere completely shut off. The neurofeedback causes the left side to wake up the near dead right side. But, she didn't and doesn't want to be healed. They actually get a euphoria from controlling others and causing torment. So, they become addicted to the drug so to speak. She embraces her condition with all that she has, and it is really sad. So, don't beat yourself up that if you could of done this or that, your child would be better. You can't help someone (even a child) who doesn't want to get well or who doesn't want help. Psychopaths usually like their own condition as I have experienced and read. They happily embrace it.

Thanks for sharing this interesting information about neurofeedback. My partners 19 year old refuses counseling. She puts a lot of effort into maintaining her position and condition. Its all working out great for her especially with the help of the sycophants who seem to get something out of going along with her games.

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