#17046 - 02/18/18 05:50 PM
Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
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Registered: 07/18/14
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I'll open the conversation up about psychopath kids and school shootings. There is a lot to talk about here. Emotionally it was very upsetting to me as I see so many similarities between my son and this killer. We just keep thinking that could be us and we wouldn't be surprised.
One thing worth talking about regrding this kid is I heard he was adopted and both adoptive parents died - heart attack and pneumonia. Just speculating, but I wonder if these deaths were a result of PTSD or maybe even he sabotaged them. Also I heard that the police had visited this kids house (while with his adoptive parents) at least 30 times. I believe that is enough to kill someone from stress or at least destroy your immune system. Our son has probably had the police come to our house for him about 6-8 times, but if he had been home instead of in the institutions we put him in, I'm sure we would be up to 30 or more visits too. The thing is everyone who knew him knew he was capable of this, and no one investigated. Even if they investigated, what could they really do with the current state of our mental health system and legal system.
It made me thankful that we had put our son in the dependency system so he could get institutional care he needs to keep him and others safe. Also, with having a judge periodically review the situation she can make rulings to restrict some of his activities and provide services that he requires.
I'm not going say anything about the gun issues except I know that kids like mine do not care about laws and they can easily find friends who will get them illegal guns if they choose to. To me the real problem is the mental health crisis in our nation and that psychopaths go un-diagnosed, untreated, and there is no way to lock up the mentally ill who are dangerous. Another problem is that schools try to integrate dangerous and special needs kids with regular kids first before a more restrictive IEP school is required. Also, a parent can opt not to enroll the student in the special ed courses or schools and keep them in regular schools, even if professionals see a danger and recommend an IEP school. Finally, the biggest failure here is the failure of the FBI to follow the leads they already had on this kid before he killed.
We are going through another emotional transition this week. My son is in his fifth residential institution and will most likely get discharged to some type of group home in April. My son continues to give us cards and letters telling how he still wants to come home. He gave a valentines card saying “I’ll be home soon” and he listed everyone in the family to say happy Valentines day to. It was spooky because he remembered family that he had only met once when he was a toddler, or that he had only heard people talk about. It felt more like a threat to us. Have you seen that in other psychos that they remember details like addresses and names like that? I’ve heard that before from some source. Anyway on top of that and the shooting, we are being asked to have the “you are not coming home conversation” with our son. Although this has been our intention since we started the court process, we have never told him that directly and I do not want to crush his hopes. But I know he really doesn't care about us, he is just trying to manipulate us to get back to a environment where he feels he can do what he wants to do.
Edited by DadofRad (02/19/18 07:08 AM)
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#17049 - 02/22/18 07:24 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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Yes when he arrived at 1.5 yrs, he was aggressive, biting and attempting to push people down the stair.
That was an interesting point about family members not mentioned. We have an extensive extended family even close by, but none of them are willing to help or take in our son because they know what we have gone through and have been burned personally by him. I'm sure it was the same for this killers extended family if there were any.
The FAPE laws require education to be Free and Appropriate, also they require the least restrictive environment to be used. Usually that means they need to have the kid in a regular public school before being placed in a more restrictive special ed school. Also, the parent has to agree to IEP evaluation and special services are only provided if the parents consent and the school agrees that special services are required. With Psychopathy, the kid is usually good at appearing normal to outsiders so getting school to see the problem can be a challenge. It the child has been hospitalized for behaviors they will not be able to deny diagnosis's from doctors. In our state, the parents can opt not to utilize the special services and keep the child in a regular school setting. If a parent decides to not use the IEP, a judge can overrule that, but first the child must be in the court system either through Juvenile delinquency or as in our case in dependency. So it's almost impossible with the current laws to keep these kids out of mainstream schools and these types of kids are becoming more and more common.
Yes, one of the foster families my son was with had no idea of his history until we told her. I believe this is negligent, unfair, and dangerous. The foster family this killer was with last clearly had no clue about the seriousness of the kids condition. This is why I maintain detailed records of my son's history. I can easily provide a new caregiver, therapist, or institution, a link to all my files where they can review extensive history and diagnosis going back for years. It's helped in most cases with counselor and guardians. There have been some institutions who refuse to regard his past diagnosis and would rather believe their fantasy that he is just a poor misunderstood orphan that they can rescue.
I didn't know the adoptive parents were not old. I assumed they were. I do believe the PTSD ultimately killed them then. We can feel our stress and blood pressure increase by just getting a phone call from our son. When he was living in our house it was just a constant war zone (and we are not normally a angry or uptight family). Also, having a kid like that will isolate you pretty quick and remove any support system you might have. No one understands, he plays people against you, and for the most part the kid appears great to everyone else. Talking about your problems with friends only makes you look like bad parents. We still have not regained anything like a healthy social life, and even the family who are close by just stopped visiting. They may also feel threatened having this kid in their lives and possibly resent us for that (my thoughts).
Edited by DadofRad (02/25/18 05:00 PM)
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#17050 - 02/25/18 05:04 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: DadofRad]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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Regarding the gun issue, I heard that if the child had been involuntarily placed in treatment (hospitalized involuntarily by police), he would be on a no gun list. Because he had been admitted voluntarily, they did not revoke those rights. My son has been admitted many times, but I'm not sure if any of them were on the books as involuntary. Even when the police had done so because of violent threat, the hospital often asked us to sign a voluntary admission form so that he could stay longer.
Funny, I just spoke to our family therapist, the one who knows my son is a psychopath. He said he was just thinking about us last week although I hadn't spoken to him in 4 months. He was making the connection of this psycho killer kid with our child. He even said he heard that people are suspecting the kid might have autism and he chuckled. This is what someone suggested of our son too. Autistic kids are not intentional killers, psychopaths are. Why does society pretend psychopaths don't exist when they are so clearly here? It's almost as though everyone thinks psychopaths are fictional characters that only exist in horror movies.
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#17053 - 03/03/18 06:38 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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In my experience, they will turn to any other diagnosis except the psychopath (ASPD), and for kids it's anything but Conduct Disorder which is the precursor to ASPD. I think we need to start calling it what it is train our school counselors to better recognize a ASPD bound kid and get him services as quick as possible. I was glad to hear that Senator Marco Rubio in FL was proposing a more comprehensive mental health screening and services for kids in Florida. It would require schools to report dangerous behaviors to the police department which would put them on a no gun list. I would support that fully knowing my son would be put on such a list (even though I also support the 2nd amendment). http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article202856914.html Here's a brief article on it. It's only been two weeks, but it feels like this topic is old news now and will soon be forgotten until the next one occurs again. At which time the same old arguments will be made, but little will done. Am a getting cynical? I do believe it is every parents responsibility to know what their child is capable of, and to report all dangerous behaviors to professions, and to seek out all the services that are available. The best way to do that it have them admitted to a hospital when a dangerous episode has occurred (make sure your insurance will cover it). It's a horrible process, but its worth the trouble in order to get professional assessments, records, and resources. Also, requesting a social worker will open up more resources too. If you don't have medicaid it may cost a small fee, but these people usually understand troubled kids like this and will start you on a path to getting them more help.
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#17056 - 03/07/18 05:54 AM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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I had a session with our therapist last night regarding our son. He showed me a letter he had written to several newspapers, and county administrators. Basically, he was highlighting how private professions are not often included in discussions with schools about behavior and treatment. The schools counselors and administrators operate without any outside accountability or reporting to outside authorities or family practitioners who can help. If they were working with law enforcement and private therapist, they could get a clearer diagnosis based on a child's overall behavior and not just the sympathies of an empathetic teacher. In my experience, the schools are not trained to recognize dangerous behaviors and go out of their way to minimize and not report it.
So far no one has responded to his letters. And the media only listens if people are talking about gun control.....
Edited by DadofRad (03/09/18 05:50 AM)
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#17058 - 03/09/18 05:57 AM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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There are so many factors outside of gun control. My point is that there are many problems with most of our social systems and government agencies and gun control is NOT the central issue. You understand psychopaths better than most people in this country. Of course you know that gun or no gun a dangerous psychopath will kill if he wants to, whether using a knife, a bomb, or capturing and torturing people. Our mental health system, school system, and law enforcement is horribly inadequate at recognizing and dealing with these people and even our FBI can't seem to properly investigate this even with good leads. There are still so many important issues to address here, why are we still talking about gun control?
What we really need are people asking what are the underlying mental health issues here? How can we identify these people sooner, and what restrictions can we enforce on them to protect society as a whole? Yes gun restrictions on the dangerously mentally ill should be part of that, but a very small part of that. As mentioned, if you take away a gun from them, they will just grab a pipe bomb, or some other weapon. We need to talk about how most of these people need to be institutionalized and in long term therapy, which seems to not be even on the table for any of these discussions. Did you know we had such institutions before the 80s, but liberal politicians shut them down, releasing the dangerously mental ill on society? We desperately need to talk about resources for parents, preventative therapy,and preventative institutionalization before a dangerous child commits a felony. This has been my approach with my son, but I had to commit the crime of abandonment and pay ongoing legal fees in order to accomplish this. These options need to be available to parents and support and help need to be more accessible. So please don't pretend that gun control is the easy answer to this problem and that the NRA is the enemy. I am living with this very complicated problem everyday and I know the enemy personally.
In the meantime, while our government is not doing it's job of protecting it's citizens, we as citizens have the right to protect ourselves and taking guns away from people who want to defend themselves is definitely not the answer. If I was a teacher you better believe I would carry and I would fight for that right. I'm not going let some psycho take me and other children down any more than I am letting my son destroy my family.
You say everyone thinks more guns are the solution, it seems to me that the media, the left, and you are saying gun control is the solution. These are very simplistic and naive answers on both sides. They are band aids on a very deep problem that society as a whole doesn't have a clue about. But with your extensive knowledge of psychopaths you understand intimately that these people are very dangerous; psychopaths are dangerous, regardless of what's in their backpacks. If our society does not relearn how to deal with these people, we will continue to have mass shootings, bombings, or worse.
Edited by DadofRad (03/09/18 06:21 PM)
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#17060 - 03/10/18 05:14 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: DadofRad]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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I just had another discovery about my son and this shooting incident. According to this article: http://dailysignal.com/2018/03/05/obama-...res-went-wrong/"A separate report by RealClearInvestigations found that Broward County was part of a “vanguard of a strategy, adopted by more than 50 other major school districts nationwide, allowing thousands of troubled, often violent, students to commit crimes without legal consequence.” This was part of a larger Obama administration effort, launched in 2011, to reduce racial disparities in school discipline numbers, according to RealClearInvestigations." This explains a lot. My son was running away in one of those counties too last year and was continually caught commuting crimes such as shop lifting, breaking into neighborhood cars at night, and even breaking the window of a Sprint store. No investigations, charges, or criminal records were even taken regarding these incidents. It seemed that he would probably have to seriously hurt someone before the county law enforcement would give him any consequences. Finally they charged him when he pulled a fire alarm in a public building and he now has a series of Juvenile court assignments to do, like writing reports, and doing some small service. But really? Pulling a fire alarm get's more consequences than breaking and entering? Now I understand. This killer had dozens of incidents similar to my child including bringing bullets to school, assault, etc. If at the very least they had filed reports on this and put it on his record he would not have passed the federal background check. Further, if he had legal consequences and was under court supervision, the whole incident probably would have been averted as a judge would have been assessing this and making court orders to restrict him. This policy was designed to put an end to the “school to prison pipeline,”. It was a policy enacted by the democratic party based more on political agendas and wishful thinking than common sense. The results were frustrating in my case, but tragic in the case of those 17 families. Bad ideas have victims. I just hope that this shooting incident will cause our government agencies to reverse some of these bad policies and at least ensure a child who commits crimes gets real consequences and it goes on a permanent record.
Edited by DadofRad (03/10/18 05:54 PM)
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#17063 - 03/13/18 11:38 AM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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#17064 - 03/16/18 08:01 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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Yes, the programs related to ending the high school to prison pipeline has the effect in our county that a kid can get away with criminal behavior and not even get a juvenile record or any consequences to speak of. I wonder if the reason my son finally got a mild consequence could be related to the fact that a judge was overseeing these incidents because he was in dependency court and may have ordered it. We are breeding psychopaths--normal people are having less children and a psycho will breed without any regard to consequence. Plus we are training kids toward these behaviors with media, video games, and porn and we are providing no consequences when they act up. Again, there is no way to keep them out of the public school system. These incidents are going to get worse no matter how much of an outrage there is unless we start to deal with the real issues here. These psychopaths are on the rise, and our culture will not even acknowledge they exist.
Great article and so much to comment on. The story sounded similar to mine, a family terrified of their threatening son, now surrendering custody so he would be in a institution, trying to find a therapy that may help. Yes, the infant behavior sounds similar to what we experienced too--biting during breastfeeding, and not being disturbed when another child is hurt. I agree that a highly structured reward programs seem to be the most effective.
I was amazed to see such an accurate analysis of psychopath children in our culture, but then I realized, it wasn't an American Article, but originated in the AU. Our country seems to be in denial on a lot of psychiatric issues, but I will keep my focus on psychopaths. We pretend that every child is a blank slate and all they need is good parenting, boundaries, and love to be a great adults who are stable, productive, and happy. This is a belief system based on humanism that is just false. This article brings out the truth that anti-social traits can be seen a child from birth and are even present in brain scans. I had heard that before about brain scans, but never actually saw an example. I had my son visit a neurologists to scan for abnormalities, and they reported no problems. I think they were only looking for tumors and probably wouldn't have reported those type of abnormalities to me even if they found them. I asked our psychologist if psychopathy was detectable by brain scans and he said no. Once again I wonder if this type of research is politically censored in our country.
I am skeptical of the empathy therapy they mentioned because in my experience training a psychopath to recognize how he may be hurting another person does not keep him from hurting others. I think it only trains them on what to say or how he is supposed to react, but in his perverse thinking, he wins when he hurts people (even when the consequences are bad). This exercise only reinforces to him that he hurt someone else (which he is inherently proud of). When I shared that portion of the article with my daughter and wife, my daughter said she thought the therapy was BS too, but waited to hear my opinion.
I will put "the psychopath whisperer" and “Conduct Disorder and Severe Antisocial Behaviour,” on my book list. Also Taming Toxic People: The science of identifying and dealing with psychopaths at work & at home, by David Gillespie, looks good. Have you read them? This Mom Quillian, is she the one that had the facebook group? If not, are you aware of her group or how to contact? BTW, I started reading the Predator book you recommended but stopped. It was too disturbing for me, and I concluded that the child he was describing was at least not a genetic psychopath because he clearly had feelings of empathy, regret, and guilt as a child. So in my black and white thinking he was not a psychopath, but maybe just someone who had been corrupted and perverted by life's bad. But this is also our cultural humanistic narrative that psychos are not born but made, so being fiction, it may have been embellished to support that belief.
Edited by DadofRad (03/18/18 07:45 PM)
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#17065 - 03/18/18 02:56 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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I think addressing the problem at many angles is a good thing because there are many factors that enable these psycho kids (or adults) to do what they do. Guns, the Internet, porn, video games, and violent media are all social factors that should be better controlled to protect society as whole from easily influenced and unstable people. Also, unless the person is living alone in isolation, there are people who know and should be concerned about his behaviors. These incidents never happen in a vacuum and usually someone in that person's life knows they are a threat. The more we can do to spot and interrupt these behaviors, the better. Also, as mentioned the fact that school, private therapists, hospitals, and institutions that deal with these children (or adults) are working in isolation is a huge problem. If these professionals were required to come together to create a consensus (which happens when the case is turned over to the court) these people would not slip through the cracks so easily.
The biggest problem I see in our culture is a psychological and educational community that is so committed to the notion that killers are made and not born, it renders them incapable of diagnosing a personality disorder even when it is staring them in the face. And when the criminal is a child, the blinders are even higher. You can NOT address a problem when you refuse to acknowledge it. It is interesting to me that therapists who work in prisons or psychiatric hospitals are more ready to correctly diagnose it. Also, my wife who is an educator has found that principals (not teachers) are more capable of recognizing a child like this for what he is because they have more experience actually hospitalizing these children when they are out of control. I know even for myself, I had to have these real life experiences with this before I could see that my idealistic notions of parenting and child development were not based on reality.
Edited by DadofRad (03/18/18 05:12 PM)
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#17067 - 03/18/18 05:15 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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The link didn't work for me.
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#17070 - 03/20/18 10:44 AM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 11/15/02
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Another day, another shooting. This time it did work having an armed officer at the school. Now if this person had an automatic rifle things would have been different. Another school shooter The question remains, do I think an armed officer stops these attacks, yes and no. In this small of an area, the shooter would possibly have known there was an armed officer on the premises. Did that stop him? No.
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#17081 - 04/24/18 08:58 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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I did get to see the video's about the parents group https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFlaQmHGywThey also have a Facebook support group, but I would never recommend someone sharing these very personal details about your child on a public platform like FB. There really is no privacy. I've learned that even sharing these details privately with a friend is usually misunderstood and judged based on the fact that most people really do not understand what a psychopath is. I'm so glad it's being talked about on mainstream media. Any coverage of this is good. Having said that, I know some have concerns about Dr. Keil misleading parents stating that 80% of the kids grow out of it. Knowing now what a psychopath kid is and knowing the medical documentation on it, that is probably unlikely. The doctor also uses the term brain disorder rather than the textbook definition of a psychopath Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD). I don't claim to be a doctor or understand the difference completely, but I think ASPD is something that just is with your brain functions and cannot be changed. A brain disorder is caused by a variation or mutation in a gene or is inherited. In that sense BD confirms Dianne and my suspicions that a psychopath (usually) is not made but born, but this definition does not conform to DSM-IV (textbook) definition for psychopath/ASPD. I do see and read that a psychopath/ASPD can't really get rid of it completely, but perhaps he is saying that most learn to manage it to the point they can appear normal in most circumstances. Also there are degrees of the condition, which will make it more or less manageable, and the likely existence of co-morbid conditions that can complicate it and make it more dangerous. My son's condition is very serious, but to someone just casually observing him for a day may not notice anything out of the ordinary. I think my son would be in jail if it wasn't for him being in institutions and our County having lax policies on juvenile crime. Will he one day have a developed enough mental capacity and chemical stability to keep out of trouble, and out of institutions? Maybe. Will he ever be completely free of having outbursts, aggression, and threats? I don't believe so. Also we are totally dependent on med management. If he is off meds or needs adjusted, he goes out of control, which has just happened again in the institution he is in. Perhaps when he is fully grown, his medications may not need adjusted, but they are adjusted based on his behaviors, which are not predictable. So much of the outcome is dependent on these factors that no one has control over, full understanding of, or ability to forcast.
Edited by DadofRad (04/25/18 06:14 AM)
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#17084 - 04/25/18 07:33 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 11/15/02
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I think his work (Kiehl) is based on the criminal types which makes sense because his "studies" are with those in youth custody. I found it confusing to listen to so will welcome feedback. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtaF4MNvyUc The conversation drifts into another one so not sure what it is all about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAEYwgDre3g this video shows his mobile brain scan in action.
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#17085 - 04/27/18 06:35 AM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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I am not sure if this is relevant but it is a new study about child psychopaths. I can't figure out how to access the file Psychopathy in childhood: Why should we care about grandiose–manipulative and daring–impulsive traits? https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/...9D209BFB40CF41B]
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#17086 - 04/27/18 06:51 AM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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member
Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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I watched the videos linked. I don't really find too much disturbing about Dr. Keil. As mentioned, I know his terminology of brain disorder is not accurate according to the DSM-V, and I'm not sure the rest of the medical field affirms that psychopaths can be detected in a brain scan consistently. However, what I do like is that he is dispelling the myth and pop-psychology notion that psychopaths are result of bad environments. The reality is they have bad genes and have a genetic problem. There really is nothing a parent or environment can do to change someone's personality and that is the message that our culture has a hard time accepting. Also, there really isn't anything you can treat these people with that will suddenly get their brains working correctly enough to feel empathy, emotion, or have a conscience.
Some comments on the commentary: 1) I thought it was laughable that they were analyzing Dexter and his level of psychopathy. This is a fictional character that is not a true psychopath, but Hollywood's portrayal of one. Irrelevant. 2) I'm not familiar with scale 1-40 of psychopaths. I think this is Hare's scale, is that correct? 3) I thought it was interesting that they rated presidents on the psychopath scale and figures like Clinton scored high and Carter scored low. I tend to believe that. Really successful psychopaths are great at spinning a situation to get out of trouble, manipulating others to get what they want, making heartless decisions to further an agenda. 4) I liked the fact that he brought out how their behaviors can be modified through positive re-enforcement. I saw that in another article, and I see that in my son who while in an institution, has a lot of motivational programs to progress through achievement levels to get privileges, etc. I do agree that he does best in those environments, and he really needs that highly structured easily achievable reward system. It backfires though when he slips up, doesn't receive a reward and then gets upset. Also, he has tendency to begin not to care about rewards, for the sake of rewards, it has to be something he really wants.
Edited by DadofRad (04/27/18 07:02 AM)
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#17091 - 04/30/18 08:08 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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From what I understand President Clinton and Carter were evaluated based on this assessment. Not sure if they volunteered to take it or if others entered in data about the person. Obviously, this is subjective even if the actual person filled it out. I don't know any public figure who would admit to manipulating, lies, and being ruthless. From what I observed, psychopaths refuse to see themselves as anything other than a super star, so how do you get an honest assessment, except to question those who know the person best? From your interviews, do you agree with that statement, or were your psychopaths more self-aware?
At any rate, you are right, just throwing around names and statistics without any references to how these were measured is not very honest or scholarly.
Assessing Dexter may be an amusing assignment in a college psychology class, but I can guarantee you that the Dexter character is a dramatization to the point that it does not accurately portray a psychopath consistently. I have seen Hollywood continually try to empathize with psychopaths to the point they just don't get it - These are not damaged people, they are hopelessly and genetically deranged people. There isn't a good side to these people any more than there is a good side to a snake. They just are what they are and do what they do, and they have such a lack of moral compass, they will not choose victims who deserve to be victims. They choose victims just because they can and they are cowards, so they will usually choose easy targets.
Edited by DadofRad (04/30/18 08:14 PM)
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#17093 - 05/01/18 04:07 PM
Re: Psychopath Kids and School Shootings
[Re: Dianne E.]
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Registered: 07/18/14
Posts: 129
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Progress will ultimately be at the cultural level. Right now there is such a predominate mentality in our culture and even in our higher education that bad people are made and not born. Changing that cultural perspective is an uphill battle and can really only be done one story at a time. I know that article you sent from Australia was far more on track than any articles you see here. That is because they are looking at it through a different cultural lens. You are getting the word out, and opening up the conversation, that is the way to begin to get people thinking differently.
As tragedies happen and people ask why is the only way they can come to face reality. Unfortunately, media gets so caught up in the gun debate, they aren't even asking the right questions.
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