I understand the core P pattern. I understand that P is calculatedly disordered. I intellectually understand all of it, and I know I need to run fast away from P. Yet, I still love him. I am broken inside from this truck that ran over me, and keeps backing up for more. Does healing ever happen? How? Truly, I fear for my sanity, whether I stay or run. Either way, my heart is the loser. I am crying as I write this to all of you. There is no comfort for the pain. Counseling does not help. Well-meaning friends do not understand. How does one find solace for the P experience?

Yes Senihile, I understand about the pain of feeling broken and degraded at the whim of a psychopath. And I know about how no counseling, friends, etc. can help to get relief from it. What I have found is that since the psychopath only drains and sucks out life force. that there is no chance to individuate from him/her until physical distance and enough time go by. It begins with no contact. And this can be so very hard in the beginning; extremely difficult. I think then, a lot of grieving goes on and this would be variable depending on among other things, the length of time one was involved with a psychopath and then how enmeshed by issues such as children, divided assets (as is more my own situation). But inevitably, I really do believe that there is healing from the wounds that the psychopath inflicts.

You have presented as a very strong, intelligent person. These traits will really serve you as you go through the stages of individuating and healing from the effects of the psychopath.

With wishes for relief for you,
Cherie

Senihele-

I so relate to your heartache. My reality started the first of this month.

I bounce back and forth from wanted to "have a sign" this reality is not true and knowing in my heart it is. I was very desperate for answers when I stumbled into this forum but I believed those that posted NO CONTACT. The only time I've engaged was by phone for a very short and uncomforting conversation.

I'm reading the posts, articles on the forum and some books that have been recommended. I feel like I'm getting a frame of reference on P's ( you seen have a great grasp on it) but I didn't know about any of this before. However, it does not diminish the love I have for this person and the pain I feel, but not seeing him really has helped. It has helped me focus on my own stuff right now.

I read the stories of those that are further ahead in the journey out. I just know they know. For me, since I don't have their experience and even though the players and places are different, our stories are basically the same.

I also wish you peace.
finished

Thank you for your "Script" on the P process on another thread.
It has helped me SO MUCH to see how the cycle has perpetuated itself. I work well with visuals. . .

hi senihele
think of your problem (remaining love for the P) in terms of an addiction, and in terms of your theory of the P pattern. During the BEAUTY stage he established a deep connection (on your end, anyway) and got you hooked on his false self. you had a steady supply of perceived affection and validation. who wouldn't get addicted to that? everyone of us here has, without exception. then it was cut off in DESTRUCTION, and your mind and heart were highly dependent on that supply. whether you comprehend the nature of the P or not (and obviously you do), that comprehension alone cannot erase the withdrawal symptoms. you still love the persona the P constructed for you in the BEAUTY phase... you are still hooked on the mask. but the mask has fragmented, as you say, and part of you is still looking for the mythical pot of glue (it's kind of like that pot of gold under the rainbow). i'm sure that there are heroin addicts intelligent enough to recognize that heroin use is decidely unhealthy and why. i'm sure people trying to lose weight can comprehend why ordering a 15 inch pizza at 2 in the morning might be detrimental. but that doesn't stop the needing, wanting, and good taste of the indulgence. we have all been through what you are going through. we all thought we could get back the friend or lover from the BEAUTY phase. just keep writing, reading, and exchanging experiences here. soon enough, the feelings will fade.
best regards,
persistent

senihele
a couple of quick points. you are obviously sharply intelligent and reasonable. while those things cannot defeat a psychopath's reality-warping powers while you are involved with and have contact with them, they will get you through the aftermath when you sever things. i have no doubt whatsoever. get rid of this joker!
persistent

Hi all,
Something that comes to mind is that what I found and still find myself missing is the love I felt and no longer feel for the psychopath. I miss that feeling, but not the psychopath. Hopefully, through this experience we will be able to discern and avoid them in the future. And find love with a real person.


Cherie

Senihele, I am so sorry for what you are going through. And I know exactly what you are going through. Once a psychopath gets his hooks in your soul, your rational mind, which may have served you well, pre-psychopath, becomes a mere child's toy.

The way you describe it is exactly as it is. A truck has run over you, and keeps backing up for more. You have gotten good feedback from the posters here. You have to get out of the way. And yes, it may the hardest thing you have ever done. Because you are caught in the grip of a powerful suggestion. Every most needing and vulnerable shred of you has been captured, and tuned to a glorious illusion. For one brief moment, you were fed at the depths of your being, you soared, you sang with the angels, you were everything you were ever meant to be.

Persistent is right. It is an addiction. A psychopath hones in on our deepest core being, and core hunger. Every human being (except for a psychopath) is driven by this core hunger to become truest self, to self-realize, to manifest the spirit and spiritual gifts within. Every human being feels at least a slight discomfort and personal dissatisfaction, and this is intended, it is what drives us to grow and become.

The psychopath somehow has the ability to penetrate, with x-ray vision, to our cores, to see what it is, his victims are most essentially made of. He has the ability to view our ungerminated seeds. He then "recognizes" us and we start to "become". His next move is to tear the wings off the emerging butterfly, and leave it dessciated for all time.

According to the way I see it, and the way it worked for me, the power you need to tap into, the only power that can save you, is the REAL power at the core of your being. Spiritual strength grounded in truth and spiritual reality, goodness and God. You won't find the power to overcome evil in your rational mind. You have to channel the power from beyond.

In a way that is the journey of every human being on earth, to learn to channel power from "beyond". To those who live life in the comfortable prisons of their rational minds, this may sound "bizarre". But, in fact, it is according to our true natures. We are not bodies that have spirits. We are spirits living in physical bodies. The thing we have to channel from "beyond" is our (true, spiritual) selves.

When you come up against a psychopath, you have come against a very pure form of evil. It takes a very pure form of its opposite to prevail.

This growing and strenghtening and "becoming" may continue for eons. But you are being forced to make a giant leap when you fall under the spell of a psychopath.

As you walk through these fires, suffer withdrawal and excruciating loss (it feels like the loss of everything you have ever found to love in yourself, and all the love you ever found in the world), you simultaneously give birth to your (true) self (spirit).

Recovery from a psychopath is a long, long difficult road, but along that road, I believe spiritual growth is inevitable. Without it, I believe recovery is impossible.

Cherie,

"...what I found and still find myself missing is the love I felt and no longer feel for the psychopath. I miss that feeling..."

I am so glad you said that. One of the grief processes I pass through, and revisit, periodically, is the grieving of the loss of my love for HIM. This is our loss as well as theirs. In fact, it is really only our loss since they never got anything real from our love, in the first place. But WE did. I often find myself, when I am out, revisiting the former me, whose heart was perpetually full of love for her dearly loved, precious husband, and carried a mental photograph of him, front and center, at all times. I think my god, used to be, when I was out shopping... And now...
And it just seems so horrible... I remember how swollen with love my heart once was, at all times. And now, that isn't there. There is other love in my heart. But not that primary connected to a soulmate love.

Yes. this rememberance and feeling of love. This is something that I haven't spoken of. But sometimes it hits me. Some event will come to mind and I'll remember the feeling. But I know now that it was my feeling and that he wasn't returning it. That's the part that makes me sad and forlorn. That's how it goes for me. Now I know what he is. LOL Its kind of funny...to me, anyway. But now when I meet a person with a really outgoing, pushy, overly friendly, or suggestive exterior persona, I cringe. The kind of person that always seem's "up" and like nothing bothers them. The easygoing friendly person. Ah well. Its part of the healing process. Anything that remotely resembles con artist traits is a red alert to me.

Cherie

And, as a result, we are left as void and empty as they are. We don't become P's, yet they leave us with a gaping black hole where our soul used to be.

Senihele, you wrote"

"And, as a result, we are left as void and empty as they are. We don't become P's, yet they leave us with a gaping black hole where our soul used to be."

Perhaps the loss of the myth of love with the psychopath seems like the loss of our souls at first and for awhile. Because its so cruel and so hard to be the recipient of this cruelty. But maybe this is part of the illusion as well. Being fooled and manipulated feels sooooo lousy. It gets better, though. A renewed and strengthened spirit is possible, I believe.

Cherie

I found this article on the web:
http://www.efrance.fr/various/psychopath/category_news.asp?IDCategory=5

Psychopath in Love
PSYCHOPATHIC RELATIONSHIPS - 14/05/2001 00:02 by Gaye Dalton

Can a Psychopath 'fall in love'? I'm not sure about this, and it is hard for me to be objective while an agenda that resembles it still makes of me a constant target. The feelings of others, inside are a mystery to all of us, and none more so than the feelings of a psychopath.

It would just be arrogance to try and define them. What is possible is to examine the patterns of behavior as they relate to the victim, because if a Psychopath can fall in love, there is no beloved, only a victim. However he intends it, that is the reality.

From the moment a Psychopath forms this kind of attachment reality, past, present or future, ceases to be among your permitted options. You are under constant pressure to be what he needs you to be, to have been what he needs you to have been, to become what he needs you to become. Fact is irrelevant to him. If you challenge his desired perception of you you are 'lying' as far as he is concerned, even though all your are doing is asserting the truth against his fiction.

Their consistent tendency to refuse rejection is a part of this, if they do not want to be rejected, then it isn't really happening. They can take this to ridiculous extremes. You condemn them because you want attention. You reject them to impose control on them, you ignore them to punish them because you know that the one thing they hate most, the list is endless. You only get involved in another relationship to make them jealous [on one extreme occasion I was alleged to have 'invented' a relationship I moved across 5 countries for, apparently to cause pain and jealousy to impose control].

This is shown well in the film 'Juror'. At the end, when the Psychopathic, hit man, Anti-hero is finally brought to bay, held at gunpoint by the heroine and several other people, after he has murdered her best friend and tried to kill her child. While one hand reaches, almost reflexively, for a concealed weapon in his boot, he brightens as a thought occurs to him:

'Yes you have to kill me' he grins, delighted with himself 'I can see that now. That is the only way we can really be bonded forever'. Thus he dies, smiling.

The three Rs, reason, reality and rationality, have no part to play in the 'love' of a Psychopath. He sees only what he wants to see, and endeavors to force you to live by it. The incredible thing is that they are usually not trying to be cruel at all, more often, it seems, they are honestly trying to be loving as they perceive it.

They can never see that what they are seeking to impose is intolerable. They seem to reason that as they are prepared to accept anything [as raw material to be adapted to fit their needs] and forgive anything [especially if you have done it to someone else, because they couldn't care less, but even, surprisingly, whatever you do to them] they feel you as cruel for being unable to do the same. They are prepared to pretend anything that pleases you, so they feel you as cruel for being unable to do the same.

A Psychopath does not have any grasp of what being a non psychopath is like. I have come to realize that most of the time they genuinely do not realize that you cannot accept the things they do. They see that as being cruel and unreasonable, and feel totally justified in trying to force you to behave differently. They feel that it is only necessary to persuade you, and the world, that you are the same as them for you to be able to comply with whatever they require of you.

They do not realize that they cannot force you to suppress all conscience and empathy, because they do not realize, conscience and empathy are not under your conscious control.

To them it is a very small thing they ask when they try to impose a whole past that never happened and the attribution of a whole identity you do not possess, because when they do that themselves it is a very small thing indeed. As far as I can see, they reason that it cannot make much difference as long as they go on 'loving' you for it.

Whatever they feel it certainly hurts them, unless they feel they have total control, and thus, no risk of abandonment. Always remember that the ultimate imposition of control is the assumption of the right to destroy, in any sense of that word. One way or another, the Psychopath is liable to be inexorably driven towards that assumption, though it is not always physical in form.

There are in this world many agonizing forms of insanity an human being can be subject to, but the only one imposed entirely from outside himself is the 'love' of a psychopath.

If it should ever happen to you, run as far and as fast as you have to, unless you do you may have cause one day to feel that those who become the 'love objects' of homicidal Psychopaths are the lucky ones.

Throughout my life I have been hypersensitive to self-blame [learned conditioning]. As a result I have a tendency to take stringent responsibility for my choices in advance. I have hardly ever risked doing anything without first asking myself if I would ever have cause to be ashamed of it, and very much avoided cases where I felt I might. Sometimes this has left me atrophied, unable to take any decisive action at all.

Perhaps the greatest step in my healing was to convince myself that I could not possibly be responsible for anything over which I had not even a vestige of control or choice. I am extremely vulnerable to Psychopathic type manipulation, though less so as the years pass. It is this conditioned sense of irrational self blame that makes a great deal of that vulnerability. They home in on it and seek to amplify it towards their own agenda. Setting up almost intolerable cognitive dissonance as I am torn between my real conscience and empathy and their demands.

One man trying to convince me to demonize myself because I will not submit to his control and excuse or support his several more general abusive agenda. In plain speech, he is trying to force me to do something I know to be morally wrong, and see myself in terms that do not exist and never happened, to become an accessory to moral crimes and the abuse of innocent others. He has been known, at times, to claim that this is 'love'.

Unfortunately, he is far from unique. Even in my life.

everything i read here speaks to my heart, all the desires you all have i have them too and i wish for healing too.
i just bought the book Without Conscience and it describes so well what is going on in my life, for me to stop seeing him i might have to put a restraining order like all the other ladies he had did, he says he loves me but he is still harassing other women so i know without a shadow of a doubt that he is lying but whenever i tell him it is the end he wants to blackmail me so i get scare, when his aunt would not give him more money he called the child protection to say that she is a bad mother, some people pulled a gun on him including myself for self defense and he calls the police first making up stories so we look bad he has a conning way of getting out of going to jail except now which is only a very short time for all the beating and harassment he has done he only gets a slap on the derrière
he is so charming that even his probation officer is asking him for his autograph and i still love him, it is like a spell he puts on us, my family even my husband liked him a lot, we were trying to help him but he used a lot of our money and did a number on me where i came close to leave my family, thank God i have a good husband who understand but now i have to make a break this is been going on too long
i was hoping for a miracle but with everyone's story and reading the book i can see that there is no such miracle

freedumb

Just a thought I have had for a very long time. I have never said it but it goes like this for me.

It was a high price to pay, one I would not have paid if I had known the price tag was going to be my heart and soul (and almost my life).

I had never been "in love" before. I can now say I know what it's like to love a man (excuse me, an illusion) with romantic love and love as a friend.

P#2 was the first person who opened my heart. It started out as a friendship and there were never any demands, no sexual passes, no strings attached. Three years of this. I was never so happy in my whole life. I felt for the first time valued, special, precious. It was glorious and wonderful. I woke up with it and went to bed with it. Where I had never paid attention to love songs on the radio, now they all had meaning. I collected and read poetry. Kept fresh flowers everywhere. I was probably close to euphoric. It fit all the criteria of being friends first before lovers. I thought it was unconditional and would last forever. When he asked me how I felt about him. . .I was so happy, delighted, excited to tell him. My heart was full of this guy. I was crazy about him. Crazy. Gosh, he was so nice. . .UNTIL. . .

I have to freeze frame the minute I told him because DESTRUCTION started at that nanosecond never to be recreated to that level again.

So. . .for me in some way that part of the drama was a gift. A powerful experience. Yes. . .I see where that is true. . . I miss the FEELING! It was wonderful. It was powerful. Exciting, exhilarating (that does resemble a drug reaction come to think of it).

I think I may be at the embryo stage of accepting I was in love with an illusion.

I read a little saying awhile back. "Love is like measles. You get it harder when your'e older".
Multiply that times ten thousand when you give your heart to a P.

Older. . .but getting wiser
finished

Hi Finished,
My P did the same... The promises of marriage, undying love... The minute I gave him my heart, in that nanosecond, the "switch" in his heart shut off, and I was plummeted to hell. We are still in love with the "mask". It wasn't real. It's not real. The only thing about P that's real, is the pure evil that posesses him, and his unfortunate target.

Senihele

In my life, I was not looking for a relationshlp. I had P#1, life with him was a nightmare but because of my beliefs, an affair was out of the question.

This P#2 really targeted me. We had a professional relationship. He would alway make a point to seek me out and connect with me somehow. I sensed he was interested in me but I kept it on a professional level and kept him at arms length. . .(at first)

In the creation/beauty stage, I sensed many times he was elevating me to pedastal position. Now, that is okay to a point, what woman doesn't enjoy that, but the thing for me was, I felt like I couldn't be myself. Yes, I love the pesdestal but please, accept me as a real person. It was like he had an idea in his head of who I was and who I should be. Anything that refuted it, he would subtly disagree. Never overtly, but softly, persuasively. I had enough experience with P#1 to recognize the control thing going on. BUT. . .he was so persistent, so undemanding, so kind and considerate that I began to find my heart opening to him. He had a quiet kind of way. Deep and complex. He was very hard to read. He is still quiet which is quite disarming. I would not say he is superficially glib but he is extremely intense.

I have that image freeze framed in my mind. I remember his face when he asked me how I felt about him. His eyes, he looked like a little boy. Talk about pulling on my heartstrings. I thought I saw the hope that what he was asking was really true.

The moment. . .I revealed my feelings. . .we talked. . . but I remember thinking on the way home. Wait a minute, HE didn't reveal ANYTHING! I was very confused. . . we talked on the phone that evening. . . still no WORDS reflecting that he felt the same way.

I've had to freeze frame all this and discect it to get understanding.

Using your model, I think that is where he went into the DESTRUCTION phase.

I have a "I wonder" here. Could it be at this point THEY know THEY can't sustain it, you know, what they created. . So instead of talking it over and reasoning it out, working through, they have to DESTROY it. It was like he HAD to ask the question to see if his CREATION/BEAUTY project was going as planned. Then when he got a real true life, flesh and blood person response, his fear drove him to begin to back pedal and begin to destroy his creation. Then ISOLATION. I the target was left shocked, dazed, tramuatized, bewildered and wondering what I did or said wrong.

It's all very mysterious, this P stuff. . .I never gave a thought to this was what I was dealing with. I only have the awareness because I stumbled into this forum. In reading the posts I saw to many similarities to ignore the reality. People who has never "had to have" the awareness don't even think of this personality disorder being the problem. Or so I say for myself. This person is an illusion of strength and success. . .the LAST person I would think to be affected. . .

Aren't you grateful for the forum? And the strength we are able to draw from those who have been there done that. We can learn from their experience and get on " on track". I'm paying attention when they say NO CONTACT. Seeing him would get me so stirred up inside. I've seen him in his car twice and it puts me in a state of HIGH anxiety. I feel like I'm just now able to think halfway straight where I can go for an hour without thinking about him.

I appreciate your posts Senihele. . .you have a lot to offer.

Our hearts will heal. We are strong. We love and are capable of loving passionately. We are learning. We will have a better life. . .loving non P's.

:-)

Blessings
Finished

Senihele-

I had an after thought in regards to my last post.

Could it be at that moment of DESTRUCTION- that nanosecond - something goes off or rather something goes on. The FEAR switch!!! The ALARM!!! What the WANT most is what they FEAR most.

It was those eyes. Those hopeful little boy eyes. . .asking me to love him. . .which I already did. Here's where I cry. . .for him. . .and me.

Oh Senehile. . .it is heartbreaking. We see with our heart. They are in disguise. . .are we mourning what we thought we saw or did we see in that nanosecond the heart unmasked, naked, exposed, vulnerable? I thought that's what I saw.

Giving up that illusion is almost like giving up on the person. Here is the place where I HAVE to put this in Gods hands. Only God knows the truth about what is in his heart. Only God can love him in a way that can bring healing to his heart. It is my ONLY comfort and I will pray for him ALWAYS FOREVER.

I'm so with you sister. . .
finished

Senilhele,

"And, as a result, we are left as void and empty as they are. We don't become P's, yet they leave us with a gaping black hole where our soul used to be."

This is the aim of the psychopath. I suspect he/she succeeds more often that not. I cringe to think of this, that there are many, many victims out in the world who have become walking shells, bombed out carcasses of former human beings. But I don't think these "successes" find their way to discussion sites such as this one. I don't think they know what hit them. I doubt they can form a coherent thought about the experience that they can use as a jumping off place to begin healing.

That is not the case with you. It may feel like that, in the early stages of healing, and especially while the psychopath still has your soul within his deadly grasp. You feel, intutitvely, the threat of the potential. I think all victims feel that, to some degree.

Those who haven't the inner resources to stand up to the threat probably feel that some flaw which has slept within them is finally bearing its destructive fruit. When the psychopath is extremely good, and extremely clever, the vcitim probably feels responsible for all HIS destructive acts. She may feel that all of it is emanating from this fatal flaw in herself, the formerly sleeping voracious monster, who was awakened by a call to really love, which SHE is incapable of doing. This is the reversal of truth which the successful psychopath effects so effortlessly.

I just finished a true crime book about the most ghastly, sadistic serial killer (in terms of the sadism of his crimes) I have ever read about. He had a wife of 13 years at the time he was finally caught. Even in the language of the writer, the wife gets a very bad rap. Everyone describes her as mean and domineering, and the writer accepts this view of her. According to the serial killer's family he is meek and mild "without a mean bone in his body", and the wife has not been good for him, has hurt his self-esteem. This, despite the fact the psychopath has a rap sheet a mile long dating back to when he was 15 years old, and was stealing, and cutting up women's clothing. In fact, I can see that the psychopath has been passive aggressive with his wife, emotionally and sexually withholding, psychologically manipulative, sadistically cruel. But when he confesses his crimes to his wife, she blames herself for them, believing she has driven him to do these things with her "meanness". Not even all true crime writers "get" psychopathy. The writer does nothing to dispel this hideous fiction, but leaves it there, as a sort of possible factor.

Eventually, this wife did come to a place of lessened self-blame, but I don't know how much she ever really healed. The psychopath's destruction of his victim's soul succeeds to the extent that the victim fails to wage a successful challenge to "the lie". Wherever there is a psychopath, there is an elaborate lie, which encompassess all of reality. Most impotantly, this lie is deep and encompassess all of psychological and spiritual reality. The psychopath's power cannot be broken by merely successfully challenging the lie as it relates to surface reality. It has to be challeneged in the deeps. For exmaple, in the book I read, the psychopath's surface power was challenged when he was convicted of one of his crimes and imprisoned. But possibly, he left behind a live victim, in his wife, who may still believe herself so flawed and ugly that she contributed to the horror enacted by her psychapthic husband.

In order to deeply heal, a psychopath's victim has to go as deep as "the lie" goes, which is as deep as a human being goes, all the way to the core. This is deep as a psychopathic lie goes. This is why psychopathy is so insidiously evil. It is a lie about all reality, all the way to the core of truth and falseness. All the way to the essence of what is true.

But this is also the reason that a psychopath's victim is called upon to grow spiritually. In order to heal, she has to penetrate to the very heart of the matter, the heart of herself, the heart of life.

You won't be left with a black, gaping hole where your soul used to be. Because you are seeking the truth.

kris

"Could it be at that moment of DESTRUCTION- that nanosecond - something goes off or rather something goes on. The FEAR switch!!! The ALARM!!! What the WANT most is what they FEAR most.

It was those eyes. Those hopeful little boy eyes. . .asking me to love him. . .which I already did. Here's where I cry. . .for him. . .and me.

Oh Senehile. . .it is heartbreaking. We see with our heart. They are in disguise. . .are we mourning what we thought we saw or did we see in that nanosecond the heart unmasked, naked, exposed, vulnerable? I thought that's what I saw. "



THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT I SAW!!!! Similiar senerio. In the case of the P that I was targetted by he was so split into parts, it was the little boy. When I finally said to him, remember you wrote to me that you really liked me, well I really like you too. ( after 3 months of seduction and the carrot on a stick, I knew he was in love with me, you could see it on his face, you could feel it, you could see it in his actions, but I was forced into saying something because he wouldn't. I thought he was just shy ) ) His body did a jerk 2 seconds silence and he said in a high pitched little boys voice. " I'm scaaaared "" plaintively.


Betrayed

Same here. I became Psychopath's girlfriend the night my roommmate broke up with him, and he walked across the hall, into my room, where I was sleeping. He woke me up and said, "K says she doesn't like me anymore, but I told her that's okay because I like you, now, anyway."

I have written this story in several of my books. I have called this a Charlie Brown valentine, and said, "No one had said anything like that to me since at least the third grade."

"The little boy" returned throughout the years, whenever I was being truly and suckered and robbed of my soul.

I got so set up. Him telling the police that day ( 2 months later ), that I was kicking him out of the store because he wouldn't have sex with me. When it was because he screamed at me I'm not a faggot, I don't like young boys, I'm not after your daughter, when it was because he also screamed What's a woman like you want with a young boy like me, and when he said when I asked why he had erased the amount of money he owed me off the wall, "You gave it to me" My brain couldn't handle it, could not comprehend it, could not make sense of it.

Betrayed

Betrayed-

Your post was like an arrow in my heart. P#2 was so scared it took him 3 YEARS.

>. . .I knew he was in love with me, you could see it on his face, see it in his actions, but I was forced to say something, he wouldn't." I also thought he was shy. HE asked ME to reveal my heart and told me he was afraid to ask that I might hit him ( I JUST remembered that part!!!) Oh, God. . .I am going to cry. I thought he meant because I was married and he was stepping over a line.

Help me here you all, I am overwhelmingly sad. . .I grieve. . .for him. . .for me.

finished

((finished))

Grieve for you. He never suffered.

kris

Oh wait! I just read your recent post. Now. . .REALITY. . .I'm remembering all the back stabbing since! And the NIGHT. I almost forgot. . .Whew. . .my own reality check. . .! Thank God for you all. . .

Finished

I think that's the tough part. We do have to grieve that relationship. Even though in the end it looks so horribly different, there is this part of it too, that is true.

I find it easier to separate all his parts, and realize one did love me, but the evil parts were just too strong. Sound crazy? Oh well, it's the only way I have been able to bear it.

((((Kris))))back, thank you.


I'm glad you all are here!

My sadness only lasted about 5 minutes this time.

I'm making progress!
finished

Betrayed-

That helps. Seperate the parts. That can be the good (boy, do I say that tenatively!) that I can take from this. . .experience.

Okay. . .here is another little thought I had. P#2 had the image of it all. Maybe sometime in this life, the REAL DEAL WILL COME ALONG. :-) It sure was great. . .that LUV feeling :-)

Catch you all later. . .Blessings.
finished

You asked: "Could it be at this point THEY know THEY can't sustain it, you know, what they created. . So instead of talking it over and reasoning it out, working through, they have to DESTROY it. It was like he HAD to ask the question to see if his CREATION/BEAUTY project was going as planned. Then when he got a real true life, flesh and blood person response, his fear drove him to begin to back pedal and begin to destroy his creation."

There is a clich in P's brain circuitry. The synapses in P's brain are like an appliance that runs only some of the time. He never knows when it's going to whack out on him midstream.

P's brain analyzes his target during the Creation phase to see what makes her tick, much like a computer gathering data. P then runs Scan Disk to see if there are any errors on the drive. However, in my opinion, while this behavior seems calculating, P's sudden movement from Creation/Beauty into Destruction is also involuntary. I want to compare what goes on inside P to the Internet Explorer Maintenance Wizard. I believe that P runs on broken automatic pilot. P cannot control the maintenance schedule, yet he senses when it is about to begin or end, and when he feels it coming he effectively shuts (you) down. During maintanence, P's brain goes into "stand by" mode (Isolation), and the screensaver appears. Renewal starts when the "mouse" is moved. Then P once again has access to his desktop. The difference between P's desktop, and yours and mine is: Our files and folders contain a continuity of data, while his computer has undergone a form of "system restore"; therefore his files and folders are empty.

My P intensly wooed me for two weeks when we met (Creation). Then he suddenly flipped out, said we had nothing together, and disappeared for two days (Destruction/Isolation). He came back (Renewal), picked up where he left off (Creation), and then went headlong into love madness (Beauty), which lasted for approximately two months. Since then, he has been "rapid cycling" like crazy. Like you, I "saw" some Red Flags, especially the subtle control; yet they were sooooo subtle, and I was so blinded by being placed on a pedestal by P, that I ignored them.

The devastation we experience is a projection and transference of P's internal process. However, because we are NOT fragmented, and are able to feel love, we are not only subjected to P's internal chaos, but to our own emotions surrounding rejection and abandonment as well.

Did your P enter into Renewal with you, or did he stop at Isolation?

I am VERY grateful for this forum. Yesterday was one of the "bad" days... I cried straight through. If it wasn't for my friends and this forum, I may have lost it all together. I think I am suffering from Post Traumatic Stress, and having a walking nervous breakdown.

I swear, when I read the posts in this forum, it seems as though we are all sharing the same P!!!

>I swear, when i read the posts on the forum, it seems we are all sharing the same P<

Same spirit, but I think you have the best looking P. :-)

I love your analogies. This circuitry one is almost as good as the first script.

I need to think about this, I'll get back.

Yes, he goes into RENEWAL every time he feels me pull away to far. He has always kept cool and distant from me. Aloof. Withholds. Example: he calls me, if I can't answer because I'm with a customer or at an appointment and I call him back. . .he NEVER answers. Sometimes for days. Sound familiar. But. . .if I get to far away and I have tried to disengage with him, he starts working me again. I don't think he will pursue me anymore. I think he is done with me. I think I heard it in his voice. If he's not, I will be amazed. He pretty much objectified me the last night we were together. I read that's what they do when they are through with their "target". (makes me sick to my stomach to think of it).

Thanks for sharing Senihele. You have a way of using words and examples that describe the process in a way that I can understand. I appreciate all the other information but I have had to drag my dictionary out to find out what some of the psycho terms were. and some weren't even in the dictionary :-)

Hope your'e having a better day of it.
finished

Truly, encountering P leads one to experience the "Dark Night of the Soul" (St. John of the Cross), for P is one of the "People of the Lie" (M. Scott Peck). P may be likened to Lucifer, the bright and shining angel who fell from grace. I am of the opinion that chaos (evil) permeated P's soul at birth, or perhaps during a traumatic injury to the brain during childhood (my P's step-father slammed his head into a table when he was 2 years old, cracking open the area above P's right eyebrow, near the frontal lobe; P still has the scar to this day).

Whatever the cause, evil walked in to fill P's soul, and evil runs the show. The majority of Ps are so far gone that they exist as pure evil. My P still has a glimmer of humnaity and light, and so in lucid moments, he wrestles with the evil he harbors inside. This is what makes my situation so heart-wrenching.

In addition to being a published author, and Intuitive Counselor with a background in psychology (the latter self-taught), I am a trained practical occultist, and my specialty is occult pathology. My P has a history of occult practice, and engages in Qabalistic/Enochian rituals, which are skewed according to his warped perceptions. Consequently, not only is he possessed by evil, but he also inadvertantly renews the connection with Darkness on an almost daily basis. (I say inadvertantly, because he desperately performs rituals (in an obessive-compulsive manner) of protection, and creates talismans to heal his condition. He desparately seeks to connect with Light.

Insofar as Truth is concerned, Hermetic Philosophy teaches that, according to the Principle of Polarity: "Everything is dual; all truths are but half-truths; every truth is half-false; there are two sides to everything."

Ten witnesses at an accident all see the truth of the situation, each according to their own perception. However, all these seeming paradoxes may be reconciled when black and white turns to a shade of gray, and we find a middle-ground. Then, when the proverbial pendulum stops swinging, we may be at peace.

I know that we cannot deal with the pure evil in P by ourselves. It requires Divine Intervention, a flood of Christ force to help the angels wrestle with the demons embattled in our souls. It is necessary to take in healing from whatever source we may receive it. It is necessary to PRAY for help. It is necessary to choose to LIVE over succumbing to EVIL, which is death. The internal process is terrifying, for if evil takes over, we face total annihilation. Yet, if we consciously choose to embrace the Christ Force as opposed to Lucifer and It's league of demons, the Christ Force will win the war.

I feel physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually ill as a result of this battle. I am praying for a breakthrough, which I know will come. Then I will be at peace. However, this will only happen when I no longer have contact with P. This is a small town. I work at home; even when I find the courage to tell P that I am done, and to go away, until Ihe finds another target, he will come to my home like a stray dog looking for succor. I can get a restraining order, yet where I live, they are rarely enforced by the local PD, which is comprised of a network of good old boys who are mainly six-toed locals.

Perhaps we may start a prayer ring of sorts, as there is strength in numbers, and PRAYER HEALS. This way we can help ourselves and each other to bring about Divine Intervention, and attain release and peace.

Hi Finished,
By "objectify" do you mean "devaluation"? Please explain in your own words what you mean, as may be experiencing the same thing from my P.

Hi Senihele-

I'll find one of my first posts and let you read it. When I started retelling the story it brought it all back, feelings and all. I will say, it was an experience i had never had with him before. i even wonder now, did i overact to what happened. it really wasn't WHAT he did but the spirit he did it in. . . does that make sense? we had sex but i don't know what he needed me there for if you know what i mean. i still feel very uneasy about what was going on that night. I wondered later if his hunting buddy was there. . .i remember consciously wondering if we were being watched. but maybe that was the drug. . .(i didn't know i had until I began peicing it together). Oh this is so sick. . .

i'm glad i'm
finished forever

Okay. . .I got my thoughts together. This is what boiled down to.

A booty call.

I drove 85 to 90 miles to get to him. Drug in my wine. Sex. I could have been a playboy magazine or a porno film. He got himself off.

Where he was, was isolated, dark and somewhere I had never been. He talked my through getting me there. I got lost coming out. I only remember bits and pieces of coming home. Woke up the next day like my spirit was out of my body. It took me over two weeks to feel 1/2 way normal. the fear, the shock the entire experience.

. . . .and no call to check on me for a full week.

Was he afraid if something "happened to me" if he would have called it tie him to me. Was I even supposed to make it home.

It reminded me of a snake hiding out, not wanting to show his face until he knew the coast was clear.

Object. Yes. . .I was an object. there were no loving words, no tender touch. nothing that goes along with intimacy.

Devalue. No! He does not have THAT power unless I give it to him, which I WILL NOT! BASTARD!

I think I feel some ANGER here.

Oh yes! Before we "went there" he said "where's your stuff?" i said, my purse is hanging on the back of the chair and my shoes are by the door. He ran out and got them and said "we'll put all you stuff in a pile right here"

What the hell was that about? Then did I tell you about the CLICKS I heard. I asked, "whats that"
"Nothing" he said softly as he pushed me down.

No. . .this is all to wierd and my stomach is churning within me as I write this.

I was in danger that night. How much, I'll never know.

It was like if she makes it home great, if not, no big deal. He as good a murdered me out there.

God- please help him. . .

and me.

finished

Thanks. I'll look forward to reading your post re. "objectifying" behavior.

"...It really wasn't WHAT he did but the spirit he did it in. . . does that make sense?...."

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. My P smiles slyly when in the process of inflicting pain... kinda like someone who laughs at a funeral, you know? It is VERY sick, and beyond comprehension, all of it.

My P is supposed to come over my house today, as we are once again "starting from the beginning" (Renewal). I am going to simply detach and observe.

I am in the process of turning my theory re. the P Core Pattern into an article, and then a book. One of my publishers has already expressed interest. I feel that the writing of all this will be very carthartic.

(((((((((to finished and ALL))))))))))))

Senihele-

This is my opinion and just my opinion.

I don't think you can be engaged with a P and detach and observe.

They are more powerful because they have no conscience. They will do anything without remorse.

This is just a therory on my deal the long and short of it is this. P#2 cannot have me. P#2 does not want anyone else to have me either. A verse in a song that was near and dear to his heart indicated "I'll take you out, but I'll keep lovin you".

Maybe he wouldn't do anything overt but this seemed (to me) a covert way to , well. . .do away with me.

If anyone thinks I'm overracting here, I welcome feedback. I realize I am thinking the worse, but all the clues point that direction. . .

Save yourself Senihele. . .he is DANGEREOUS. You are no match for him!
FINISHED

"Oh yes! Before we "went there" he said "where's your stuff?" i said, my purse is hanging on the back of the chair and my shoes are by the door. He ran out and got them and said "we'll put all you stuff in a pile right here"

What the hell was that about? Then did I tell you about the CLICKS I heard. I asked, "whats that"
"Nothing" he said softly as he pushed me down."




Finished, what are you saying here? Are you saying he put your stuff in the bedroom away from the rest of the house, so if someone came in, they would not know you were there?

What about the clicks? Like the clicks of a camera?

Betrayed

oh Betrayed -

It is a subject I haven't wanted to bring up. When I told my brother, he was so upset. He said, finished, you don't EVEN know what you might have opened yourself up to. I said what do you mean? He said, how do you know you weren't being watched. That there weren't videos or taking pictures.

The feeling I had when he said that was like a hot iron in my gut.

Here's why.

I had asked P as he was leading me in by phone if he was spending the night there. He said he was getting up early, 4:30 to go hunting with a buddy. He didn't give me the impression the buddy was there, that thought came to me the next day. As far as I knew, it was just us.

When things were just heating up in the bedroom, I heard this noise. At first it sounded like an ice maker making ice, you know. But he was drinking beer and I was drinking wine, neither were iced drinks. Then. . .a few minutes later, I heard it again. The third time, I raised up and said what was that??!! Actually, he said its the TV as he pushed me down.

After. . . .the event. . .we go into the living room. The back of his house is window open to the lake. Now remember, time is standing still for me, it seemed like I had been there for hours. There was a point in time just before I left, I felt I was slurring my words. If I had to evaluate how many oz of wine I would say no more than six, seven oz at the most, remembering the levels in the glass over a 31/2 hour time. That's not a lot. I wasn't gulping I was sipping. As we were sitting there talking I remember having a strange feeling we were being watched from that window. And then we started round two in the living room. I remember being pretty amazed that he could get up again after the first deal. And again it seemed like it was lasting for hours.

It was weird. . .really weird. So when my brother said that to me, and I had that searing hot feeling in my gut, my mind flashed back to all those impressions and feelings I had. Actually, it was the next day, I began to evaluate what happened and the sense of what I had been feeling. At the actual time, everything was very lovely in a surreal sort of a way.

So. . .

I began to wonder, Did he invite me out there, give me the drug so he and his buddy could have a little fun with me? Then when I maintained my faculaties (to a fairly good degree), he sent me home. I asked myself, did he have my clothes in one spot in case "something" happened and I didn't wake up. Most of these drugs knock you out. I surmised it probably hit me on the was home as I shared I was fighting to stay in my head and can only remember certain parts of the drive.

And then NO PHONE call. Until a full week later which I didn't answer. I took his call on the 15th, and no word from him since. I'm not sure if he tried to call me a couple of times from his store. I didn't answer and it could have been one of his employees.

I know this. . .whatever was going on that night. . .it was not good. Relating the events gives me a sick feeling everytime.

And his sexual behavior. How odd. Why, when you got the real deal in front of you. This was not a mutual thing, not at all. At some point I was completely left out of the deal.

Something I read on another web site about cocaine addicits, is they have a hard time ejaculating. I don't know. . .is anyone here familiar with that trait.

I've been grasping at sheds trying to make sense of it all. Which I know is not going to make sense because there is no sense to their reasoning.

Now you know all the story. Not pretty is it. . .

The counselor I saw last week said he probably curled up in his shorts when I said what I did. She said he knew he did wrong. Yeah, I know that. . . but sadly he dosen't care. Those are lousy apples.

Usually, by now I'm over the abuse and on with life. No more. I'm going to work on this abuse stuff. When I read that book betrayed, I couldn't believe all the abuse I have taken from him. I just didn't call it that, or know that's what it was because he never hit me not with his fists anyway. He has battered me emotionally. I have been a toy for him.

That's why I said in a previous post, he might as well stabbed me through the heart, put me in a garbage can and set it at the curb for the garbage truck. That's what his actions told me, in SO many words.

My "friend" you know the one who said relax and enjoy it, still dosn't get why I've been tramuatized. Can you believe that? What would it take for her to realize he did an evil thing. She maintains the ride home got to me. I got hysterical and got myself worked up. How's that for validation. . .

I'm toast now. . .relating this wears me out.
I'm open to comments. Do you think I'm missing it by a mile or am I in the ball park.
finished



.

Dear (((Finished))),
I am so sorry he did this to you. These people are monsters. You didn't deserve this. He is garbage.


"Usually, by now I'm over the abuse and on with life. No more. I'm going to work on this abuse stuff. When I read that book betrayed, I couldn't believe all the abuse I have taken from him. I just didn't call it that, or know that's what it was because he never hit me not with his fists anyway. He has battered me emotionally"

He has also battered your brain into a disassociated state. That is also part of the healing, to bring your self back together. I am so glad you got Patricia Evan's book. I must have read it at least 50 times if not more. It's my bible. When I first started reading it, it was like a giant lightbulb moment. Here were all the basic techniques he had used on me. The more I read it, I went hey, my mother uses those ones, hey theres some an old boyfriend used. P used all of them and more. It is my guide for navigating through the world, now. The more I read it, the more I observed other peoples interactions with me. I sit listen and observe couples using it. It's not only men who use these techniques on their wives. I see women using these techniques on other women, parents to their children.etc. etc.And sometimes I even find myself using some of them. For years I have read assertiveness training books, and none of them ever mentioned these situations. I took assertiveness training courses, and none of this mentioned.

I feel like one of the Stepford Wives who has woken up. Life is just not the same. I won't be battered anymore.

Another great book is called Captive Hearts, Captive Minds. It is amazing any of us broke out of the trance, when you realize how powerful these techniques are.



My "friend" you know the one who said relax and enjoy it, still dosn't get why I've been tramuatized. Can you believe that? What would it take for her to realize he did an evil thing. She maintains the ride home got to me. I got hysterical and got myself worked up. How's that for validation. . .

HOW DARE YOUR "FRIEND" say that to you. You don't deserve that from anyone, let alone your "friend". Any normal person would validate and comfort you. These people are not normal. Don't make excuses for her.

"I know this. . .whatever was going on that night. . .it was not good. Relating the events gives me a sick feeling everytime"

Pay attention to your body and your feelings, if your conscious mind does not remember everything, the rest of you does. A part of me knew what was going on the whole time. As I reflect back, I said things that were so aware, but done in a joking manner. Even my dreams were telling me something was horribly wrong. If you get that book The Gift of Fear, it tells you about how powerful our subconcious is and how it notices everything.

"Something I read on another web site about cocaine addicits, is they have a hard time ejaculating. I don't know. . .is anyone here familiar with that trait"

I am not familiar with drugs, but I mentioned on an earlier post that many abusers who are so into power and control will not even let that go, they have to be so in control.

"The counselor I saw last week said he probably curled up in his shorts when I said what I did. She said he knew he did wrong. Yeah, I know that. . . but sadly he doesn't care. "

I don't agree with the counsellor on that one. He probably got joy from hearing how upset you were just from the ride home. Never forget, they enjoy inflicting pain.


"And then NO PHONE call. Until a full week later which I didn't answer. I took his call on the 15th, and no word from him since. I'm not sure if he tried to call me a couple of times from his store. I didn't answer and it could have been one of his employees. "

I don't think he's finished with you. I don't mean to frighten you, just want to prepare you. He's not going set up a 3 year control and power trip to let it go that easy. Even though it appears as power and control, it is really about powerlessness and out of control. They are very dependent on their "victim". You hold the real power, not them. Many of them go off the deep end once their captive escapes. They will do and say anything to get you back under control. Just my experience and watching a number of friends go through it.

Betrayed.

(((((((((Betrayed)))))))))
Keep in mind that I have 30 + years of counseling experience, and detachment and observation are 2nd nature to me. Also, I was the Police Chief of a small town in the state where I live, so I know how to protect myself, if necessary. I am very much "on guard", and I can keep my fragile emotional state at bay when necessary. Maybe I'm pissed, and a little crazy too. The detective in me wants to get a bead on what this joker is all about. He came here yesterday, and will be back later today. I'll recap his behavior in another post when I have more time.

Save yourself Senihele. . .he is DANGEREOUS. You are no match for him!
FINISHED




(((((((((Betrayed)))))))))
Keep in mind that I have 30 + years of counseling experience, and detachment and observation are 2nd nature to me. Also, I was the Police Chief of a small town in the state where I live, so I know how to protect myself, if necessary. I am very much "on guard", and I can keep my fragile emotional state at bay when necessary. Maybe I'm pissed, and a little crazy too. The detective in me wants to get a bead on what this joker is all about. He came here yesterday, and will be back later today. I'll recap his behavior in another post when I have more time


Thanks for the hug. But I think I have been mistakenly identified again. It was Finished who wrote you the post, that you responded to. Oh well, at least if I keep getting the hugs I guess it doesn't matter. (smile) (((Senihele)))

Betrayed.

Betrayed-

Thank you for your kind post ((((betrayed))).

I found a post from Diane this morning. One she posted Oct 26. It was on NPD.

There is actually a book on that link and it describes this personality. I only got through three chapters, but it described the behavior almost to a T, what I experienced. The whole personality. Even the sexual stuff. Some narcissist actually prefer "themselves". I read with utter amazement. I was actually able to come to terms with it. It went off in my head like a rocket. . .he is wired TOTALLY different. Combine that with the info in that Verbally Abusive Relationship and Senehile's description of their mind and the computer and I got it. This is WHO they are. You could have put his picture in there. It was him!

I find some peace of mind in that. I have racked my brain for years over this. Asked every counselor, every tharapist.WHY, WHY.WHY.WHY????????? SOMEBODY EXPLAIN WHY? Why would a person spend all that time laying a foundation, building a (disguise) relationship to a second after it was sealed. . .destroy and islolate?????? WHY,WHY,WHY???

And then. . .I stumble in here. I would have never even known had I not found you all. What a blessing.

Thank you so much for your supporting words betrayed. What an encouragement you have been to me.

finished

((((((((((FINISHED)))))))))))
I realized that I replied to Betrayed after I posted. SIGH My apologizes. The infamous "Senior Moment" strikes again!

Does Velociraptor ring a bell? When I think of key P mental, reactionary components, my thoughts stray to the movie, Jurassic Park - especially Jurassic Park 2. The Velociraptors will eat you in a hot flash; yet if you have something they want, they will make a deal with you. Once the deal is made, you better get the hell out of there, because they will then proceed to eat you.

"The psychopath somehow has the ability to penetrate, with x-ray vision, to our cores, to see what it is, his victims are most essentially made of. He has the ability to view our ungerminated seeds. He then "recognizes" us and we start to "become". His next move is to tear the wings off the emerging butterfly, and leave it dessciated for all time."

you say it well sometime i felt that he was psychic

freedumb

Senihele-

Boy! Did that ever cause some bells to go off. I work with this P. More stories inside stories!

Appreciate that analogy. . .thanks always Senihele. You have a talent for that!

finished

P.S. I'm DETERMINELY LOOKING FOR A NEW JOB

Persistent. . .

I was going through and rereading some of the threads this evening and I ran across this one you posted to Senihele.

>During the BEAUTY stage he established a deep connection (on your end, anyway) and got you hooked on his false self. you had a steady supply of perceived affection and validation. who wouldn't get addicted to
that? everyone of us here has, without exception. then it was cut off in DESTRUCTION, and your mind and
heart were highly dependent on that supply. whether you comprehend the nature of the P or not (and obviously you do), that comprehension alone cannot erase the withdrawal symptoms. you still love the persona the P constructed for you in the BEAUTY phase... you are still hooked on the mask. but the mask has fragmented, as you say, and part of you is still looking for the mythical pot of glue (it's kind of like that pot of gold under the rainbow).

> we have all been through what you are going through. we all thought we could get back the friend or lover from the BEAUTY phase. just keep writing, reading, and exchanging experiences here. soon enough, the feelings will fade. <

I would have NEVER believed this six weeks ago. I have been in love with this person approximately seven years maybe eight. The correct phrase would be crazy about him (literally).

I've continued to keep coming here and reading the posts to keep myself grounded in what I've learned. HE IS A P or NPD at best
.
I saw P#2 at work today. I actually LOOKED at him in action and I SAW him different. I observed the behavior for the first time. It is setting in. And as the day drew on I sensed myself feeling different toward him. The reality that he is a "false self".

He had called earlier this week and I told him I thought I was going to die that night. His ONLY comment was this. It was unfortunate it happened, but I was safe now and it was in the past. and. . .that night the situation (after I left) was out of his hands. (Do you hear. . .it's not my fault in between the lines)?

Then. . .he called yesterday and wanted to know if we could "be" together.

Now remember, he has never asked about my ride home, apologized that he did not call for a full week later to check and see if I made it home safely (after being drugged). . .never asked about my well being if I was okay how it affected me. No . . .not ONE thing. Just the comforting words above. And now. . .would I like to "be" with him. . .

Thank you God for this forum. I know by now I would think it was me. . .that I was probably crazy and been imagining the worse about poor P.

And yes persistent. . .I do believe the feelings are slowly fading. . .:-) slooow but I think real sure :-)

The magic glue cannot put the cracked mask back together again.

finished

And NO I will not "be" with him. . .is he nuts? . . . .YES!!!

hi finished,

you said:

"I've continued to keep coming here and reading the posts to keep myself grounded in what I've learned. HE IS A P or NPD at best"

in my opinion, a P is nothing more an extreme NPD. The traits are exactly the same, except more intense. the way i see it, the P relative to what one might just call NPD:

1. is more of a pure slave to the false self (i.e., they are the "crack addict" version of the NPD in terms of their need for narcissistic supply)
2. has more problems distinguishing the true from false self (if he or she can at all)
3. is more pathological in the use of language to distort the truth and invalidate people's thoughts and emotions
4. is more remorseless
5. has no hope for recovery

Another thing.... typical NPDs are embellishers and liars as well, but I think they at least go to some effort to externally validate them and be consistent. Ps seem to say anything they think will suit the moment, no matter how crazy and unbelievable it is, and then contradict themselves the next day (or within the next hour, sometimes). typical NPDs seem to function a little more smoothly. i also imagine that lots of milder NPDs hook up with Ps for a time, since they would have a mutual narcissistic supply flowing. the really funny thing is, they would both know the other is lying like a carpet because narcissists can see through people like hot knives cut through butter. but in the end, the bigger shark will eat the smaller one.

goodnight,
persistent

Finished,
I am glad that you are staying grounded in reality. I wish I had known about this forum sooner, and had not wasted the last few years. I had a question, did your P ever admit to any of the things you've shared here?
One of the most frustrating aspects for me was that mine never admitted to anything, unless it was related but much smaller. I was so naive that I would always believe him, yet in my gut I knew differently.
-Leti

Leti-

Never!!!

Even in this last round, where he sent me home in the middle of the night, drugged and I got lost.

I told him I was so scared I couldn't remember his phone number to call and that I thought I was going to die.

What he said ( and this was just THIS week) that it was unfortunate, but I had made it home safely, it was in the past and when I left (his place) it was really out of his hands from that point.

Yeah!! That's all I got. It doesn't sould like I'm sorry to me. It sounds more like "it's not MY fault". It was not comforting and truthfully, I'm glad it wasn't. I would have been very confused if he was! LOL

I will not underestimate this P. I am observing how GOOD he is with words. He is very intelligent intellectually but emotionally, he is retarded.

Don't be hard on yourself. I had a near death experience! If that doesn't wake you up nothing will. The trauma of it propelled me to find answers to this nightmare existence I had been living. In many way, unbelieveable as it seems, this has been a gift. I've learned more than than I ever wanted to know. LOL.

I know we are going to make it. And we are going to take as many with us as we can! I feel an obligation now to share whenever I can and whatever I've learned. The hands and hearts that reached out to me saved my life. I owe a debt I can never repay. . .

Bless you Leti. . .thank you for staying in touch.
Finished

This has been a very rough night for me. Last night I started my group at DODV. The topic was on wife rape. I know i have said how i had p#1 quarintined in another part of my life. . .well. . .he came out last night. . . i thought i was doing fairly well. . .until this. . .it opened up an whole nother area that i have not been able to deal with. . .had put out of my mind. . .until last night. . .out it came. . it gets worse before it gets better right? as i reflect. . i've had more abusers than non abusers in my life. . .and i didn't even know it until now.. . .there is light at the end of the tunnel, isn't there? i feel so hollow and empty inside this am. , and so sad (not self pity either) just so, so sad. . . not at all like myself. i am amazed i'm still standing. what a shock. . .another one. . .will there ever be an end. . .the quarinitine boards have definately been pulled off. . .not a pretty picture. . .and i thought i was dead to that. . .i will survive. . .i must. ..
finished

I am sorry you are hurting finished. It does get better. I believe the only way through the pain is through the pain. For me, it was part of the process of becoming a SURVIVOR. I see the effects of the cycle of abuse everywhere I go these days. My eyes are wide open. It is even more horrendous when that abuse involves psychopathy. It is a soul shattering experience. I get better in baby steps. It helps to know I am not alone. Hang in there Finished.

Neverthesame

I am so sorry to hear the pain you are in finished. I hope it gets better as each new day begins. What a long tough road life can be at times.

Di

Thank you Persistent and Di. .

>I see the effects of the cycle of abuse everywhere I go these days. My eyes are wide open. It is even more horrendous when that abuse involves psychopathy. It is a soul shattering experience.<

Me too. I have a whole new awareness of those who have been traumatized like this. I'm outraged when I see it now. Before, it just didn't have that impact on me. . .

>I get better in baby steps. It helps to know I am not alone.<

Thank you for that. . .it does help to know I am not alone.

Today is better. . .
finished

>This has been a very rough night for me. Last night I started my group at DODV. The topic was on wife rape. I know i have said how i had p#1 quarintined in another part of my life. . .well. . .he came out last night. . . i thought i was doing fairly well. . .until this. . .it opened up an whole nother area that i have not been able to deal with. . .had put out of my mind. . .until last night. . .out it came. . it gets worse before it gets better right? as i reflect. . i've had more abusers than non abusers in my life. . .and i didn't even know it until now.. . .there is light at the end of the tunnel, isn't there? i feel so hollow and empty inside this am. , and so sad (not self pity either) just so, so sad. . . not at all like myself. i am amazed i'm still standing. what a shock. . .another one. . .will there ever be an end. . .the quarinitine boards have definately been pulled off. . .not a pretty picture. . .and i thought i was dead to that. . .i will survive. . .i must. ..
finished<

All this stuff you are going through is par for the course.Its okay to take a break you know. It can get pretty overwhelming. It does get better honest. Slowly, slowly, slowly, 2 steps forward, 1 step back. It is so rough to go through, but you will be so much stronger at the end of it all.At one point, for me, I even questioned who am I?, am I the person molded by all this abuse over the years,with personality traits caused from abuse. Where is Betrayed in all this. She is still here. She made it through, with a strong sense of survival and humor, honesty, and integrity. I like her and I like her even more now, than I ever did.

Betrayed.

(((betrayed)))

Thank you! I did have to take a break. And this weekend was rejuvenating!

So much stuff (garbage) buried.

I'm ready to be rid of it. Yes, it is the hardest thing I have ever been through but for the FIRST time in my life, I feel like I'm really getting somewhere. It's pretty amazing.

>>Where is Betrayed in all this. She is still here. She made it through, with a strong sense of survival and humor, honesty, and integrity. I like her and I like her even more now, than I ever did. <<

You know. . .I'm starting to feel the same way! Some days it's like WOW. . .I'm still standing!

Thank you again sister friend for holding my hand through this :-)
finished

(((Finished))) It takes "courage to heal". Which by the way is a good book on sexual abuse healing.

We are not holding on to the back of your bike anymore, and you are doing it yourself. Look at that girl go!!!!


Betrayed.

I can't help but add a brief comment. If your P is a P then he is but a mirror for what you want him to be (the bit you love anyway) He is not real, he does not exist - once I realised this with my P I could let the love and hate go.

The love because the person I thought he was never existed and will never exist, the hate because I now see from the patterns that he can never change - has has no concept of truth or guilt, never will have, never can have.

But neither can I forget, and neither can I ever go back - he is dangerous - as are all P's if they think their mind games can work all over again.

You will heal and hopefully we all will too in time.

Recovery

Hi Recovery,

You wrote,"He is not real, he does not exist"

This was one of the hardest things I had to deal with in my recovery. The fact that I loved an illusion, a wolf in sheep's clothing, was incomprehensible to me. As equally as incomprehensible was how I was so very fooled by his mask. Although intellectually I know how and why this happened, inside I am still bewildered.

I have let go of the love and hate. However, I will never, ever forget.

Neverthesame

>>This was one of the hardest things I had to deal with in my recovery. The fact that I loved an illusion, a wolf in sheep's clothing, was incomprehensible to me. As equally as incomprehensible was how I was so very fooled by his mask. Although intellectually I know how and why this happened, inside I am still bewildered.<<

This is also the hardest part for me.

Accepting this was only an illusion. That I have been pouring my love and emotional energy for so many years. . .into an illusion (and into someone who didn't have capacity to love back).

Oh God, give me the courage to accept the things I cannot change. . .the P.

Denying the truth. . .believing the lie.

Oh it helps to be here ( with my friends in this forum). . .

Thank you so much
finished

((((betrayed)))


>>(((Finished))) It takes "courage to heal". Which by the way is a good book on sexual abuse healing.

We are not holding on to the back of your bike anymore, and you are doing it yourself. Look at that girl go!!<

((((Thank you betrayed) )) I have you and so many others here to be thankful for. God bless you all for your encouragement and support. I could not have done it or continue to do it alone. I will always be grateful.

Love
finished :-)

I am in several groups right now and just got a list called the "Feeling List".

There are two sides. One is the comfortable feelings. What stands out to me is this. These were the feelings I had before I got connected with P. Almost all of them.

The other side is the uncomfortable feelings. I'm going to list the ones that came as a result of my P encounter (of the worst kind).

Afraid, Angry, Anxious, Apprehensive, Ashamed, Awkward, Confused, Defeated, Dejected, Dependent, Despairing, Desperate, Devasted, Disappointed, Distrustful, Embarrassed, Exasperated, Fearful, Foolish, Frantic, Frustrated, Furious, Guilty, Helpless, Horrified, Humilated, Hurt, Ignored, Inadequate, Incompetent, Indecisive, Inferior, Inhibited, Insecure, Irritated, Isolated, Jealous, Lonely, Melancholy, Miserable, Misunderstood, Muddled, Needy, Old, Outraged, Overwhelmed, Panicky, Pessimistic, Phony, Preoccupied, Pressured, Provoked, Regretful, Rejected, Remorseful, Resentful, Sad, Self-conscious, Shy, Sorry, Stupid, Terrified, Threatened, Tired, Trapped, Troubled, Unappreciated, Unattractive, Uncertain, Uncomfortable, Uneasy, Unfulfilled, Used, Useless, Uptight, Victimized, Violated, Vulnerable, Wearly, Wishy-washy, Worn-out, Worried.

That was about everything on the list!

I felt, have felt ALL the above every since P#2. Even P#1 doesn't evoke such feelings in me. I never saw that until just now. (but at one time he did. . .).

If anyone would like to see the "confortable feelings" (for old times sake LOL) let me know and I'll post them.

:-)
finished