Please continue....

kris, operalover

Thank you for explaining sin to me in a way I understand.
You are right. I felt very, very guilty for my sins, the p did not feel guilty for his. I begged his forgiveness and he gave it. Lie. He gave it, only so he could take it back.

My friend also said that my ex p is doing the devils work. That even his planning of the address that would be found when I began my search for him was evil. He said that is beyond cruel, it is pure evil. He said some people's minds get so consumed with evil that there is no turning back, not ever, and that it appears that my ex p is one of those. When you think like the devil, you have to act like the devil too. You are so right, their sin is part of the flow.

Yet, I have to ask this...where was my conscience when I did/said sinful things? Does that make my sins "better" because I later regreted them, apologized for them, felt SO bad for them? While the p does not? I knew better than to do or say bad things to hurt the p, yet I did not stop myself. I do know this though...a lot of my slowness to recover, pull out of this all, is from beating myself to death for what I did/said to hurt the p. Had I not, I would have "been over" him the day he left. Okay, maybe a week or so later. Is that the way he wanted it, me blaming myself? Or is that part of having a conscience and knowing I must blame myself somewhat? Probably both. I just know that had I not been guilty of any heartache I caused the p, I would handle this all so much better.

To operalover, yes, you made a good point I had not thought of. I am the stronger one than my sister. I did not drop out of our parents lives. I always was envious that she had the courage to do that and believed that she has had a much better life. After all, she is still married to only one husband, children excel in their goals. Me, divorced 3 times, two children dropped out of school, other one graduated. All my children have "issues." None bad, most all are emotional. They were exposed to my parents all their lives. My sisters children were not. As I said earlier, one is a doctor, and I think another also.

So, yes, strong. Very strong. But very sad for what could have been for me and my children had they not been brought up with the influence of my parents. Am I making any sense? Believe me, I have one child that my mom thinks is hers. She has practically raised this one. Only this year I had to remind her that I was the mother, not her. Very "strongly" too. No, I did not ever "give" my children to her to raise. She took this particular one. Not physically (until they were a teen, and went by choice), but mentally/emotionally. This kid had the best of everything money could buy. She taught all about material goods and value. It was a mess, a total mess. Another cruel gesture to me, to "take" my child in a way that I could not. But he's turned out good. Yes, my son that I brag of so much here. The one who wants me to come live with him. Just today I stopped by to see him for only a minute and he invited me in for a while. I could not step in, had to go pay bills. He looked a little dissapointed.

So, it was a rough 23 years, mom "taking" him from me, but in the end, he loves me. Why? Because he always knew who his real mother was, it was me! I had to wait all these years to find that out.

Oooh! This post made me feel good inside! One of my greatest accomplishments was what I thought for 23 years belonged to my mother and it belonged to me all along!

Thank you both so much, really. I cannot express enough to all here who post what your words mean to me. It is so wonderful to find folks who truly understand where I am, where I've been and where I want to go.

Laura

Laura, I think that it is absolutely central that you don't cause these people "heartache", you cause them inconvenience and a momentary embarrassment (just until they rationalise themselves out of the truth that caused you to get on their case). For the rest, any two people say regrettable things to each other when they are irritated or angry. And normally they get worn out arguing after a shortish while. But these people regard each apology as a victory- you pled guilty! I've apolgised sincerely for thousands of things that I should not have (and I bitterly regret doing so now). Instead of apologising I should have packed a bag and hit the road. I yearn for the hurricane of rage from my dear ex wife and her horrible family. Not doing that before my two older kids were born was the biggest act of cowardice of my life. My dear ex brother in law had some extraordinary habits. And if for example he wished to respond to a call of nature, and the approriate device was in use, he was liable to pump bilges into the bath or the handbasin, noisily and with no particular concentration on his aim. Thus, whenever he came to my house, which in the early days was frequently, I would take the precaution of removing our tooth brushes and any other apparatus such as razor etc., and put them away in the bedroom. Now I continued to do this over all the years, and I told his parents why. It annoyed him, and them, no doubt about it, but as far as I was concerned, get caught doing that particular trick once and you're done for life, in my house anyway. On one occasion his parents came to stay for a few days. When they left, and I was preparing for bed- no toothbrushes. They had mistakenly taken my toothbrush and my wife's toothbrush with them. Now they didn't have a tooth between them, but they did nevertheless lug toothbrushes around with them. I recall that theirs had a substantial rubber prong on the end of the handle which used to give me the willies looking at on the side of the sink. So my wife called them at home, and oh yes, so sorry, mistakenly took the brushes, which was by all means impossible to do by mistake. Silly story, tiny thing- add it to a couple of hundred other things and you have a full blown family full of loonies. And you know, I'm still puzzled by it. Just a few years ago now, dear ex brother in law once again graces my home with his presence for a few days, together with his wife, who was perfectly nice. They're on a touring holiday you see, and much as he detests me, he doesn't have to fork out for a hotel. One evening, apropos of nothing that I recall, he ups and announces that my dear ex wife- his sister- had the amusing propensity of relieving herself in the bathtub while bathing (good gosh, now I think of it, he didn't specify the bathing part). And did she still do this he asks. It was plain at a glance that this indeed was in her habit menu, as she went bright red and sheepish looking. Now all this is not simply to dish the dirt on my dear ex vipers in law (although that is rather fun). I believe that stuff like that is indeed indicative of people who are serious screwballs. And there were dozens of strangenesses. Sorry, I got off my original point, which was "Apologise? My donkey!"

Laura,

"...where was my conscience when I did/said sinful things? Does that make my sins "better" because I later regreted them, apologized for them..."

Your conscinece was right where it was supposed to be...paying attention. Does it make your sins better when you regret and apologize for them? Yes.

Also, Laura, you wrote something some time ago that was very profoundly true. I challenge any woman to live with a psychopath for years and not turn into a harridan. I do not believe it can be done. Imagine a child whose parent trips her every time she walks by, and then laughs hysterically, gives her dishes of "ice cream" that turn out to be poop, kills her pets, tells all her friends disgusting, humiliating lies about her, until she has no friends, and sexually abuses her...do you think this child might feel like screaming at the parent when she's been duped, had, raped, again? Oh, she may not because she's a child. But she will feel like it. Now, take a gorwn woman whose husband treats her just this shabbily for years and years...that woman is going to scream at him.

I screamed at my husband. I managed to raise 2 children without ever screaming at them, so I am not a screamer, by nature, but oh, let me tell you, I screamed at that man.

Have you ever said one tenth the hurtful things to anyone else that you said to him? The source of the problem is not always the person who is most obviously acting out.

You have nothing to be sorry for.

For I promise you, you did not hurt his feelings at all. You hurt your own. You were behaving exactly according to his plan.

kris

BonnyR,

Wise words. I'm glad you "got off the original point", I laughed so hard at your story I almost cried! I actually Lol!

Yes, I screamed and yelled and said terrible things to the p. One time, maybe more than once, I said, "its a good thing you have your looks because you have nothing else going for you at all." I also told him that when his looks were gone i.e. getting old, what would he do? He had only his good looks to get women to con. I meant it when I said it, but it had to have hurt him.

Maybe that is the "projection" part of a psychopath? He angered me and hurt me so that I screamed all kinds of below the belt words at him, which made me feel like crap about myself. In turn I was angry at me for behaving in such a manner so unbecoming of a wife who claims to "love" her husband. Then he would lie, con, cheat, steal, did I say lie? again and I would scream the same evil words again. It was a vicious, useless, cycle.

He "projected" evil, I projected it back. Then he looked so hurt, dazed, saddened by my vile words describing him. In reality I know that a person should not "attack" their spouse as a person, but only "attack" those actions which cause pain. Problem was my p's actions were who he was. I could not get so enraged at an "action" once in a while, because all his actions were psychopath related, they were him! Therefore, the personal below the belt ranting and raving out of my mouth.

As for actually apologizing for much of it, that was rare on my part. I did aplogize for that which I felt most guilty about saying/doing. I believe I "apologized" by moving on to the next moment, the next day or week. By pretending that all h--- did not break loose prior. By believing that this too would pass and that the p would wake up one day a changed man, and I, a changed woman.

Over the course of the marriage, my anger went through stages. First one being "why did you do this to me?!"; Second one being, "how can you keep doing this stuff to me?!"; Third one being, "please, please forgive me for what I've done to you." This was vocalized.

While we were separated on/off in early 2001, we were communicating regularly by phone. His lies were escalating to mind-boggling proportion, I was an emotional wreck. At one point, in response to many explanations he had for a tremendous amount of "recent" lying, I asked him "out of all the women in the bar that night, why did you pick me? Why did you come up to me? I had a home, a life, I was happy. Why did you pick me to do these things to?!!!"

His exact answer?

"I didn't pick you Babe, I fell in love with you."

Which reminds me of a reply in another post:

"Please define your definition of love." That statement, in the above case, would apply to both me AND the p!

Thanks BonnyR,

Laura

kris,

"Have you ever said one tenth the hurtful things to anyone else that you said to him? The source of the problem is not always the person who is most obviously acting out."

Yes, I have. To my childrens father. Bottom line? I fall for abusive men. Then I react poorly to the abuse. Then I, or them, end the relationship and I wonder why I did not behave better.

"For I promise you, you did not hurt his feelings at all. You hurt your own. You were behaving exactly according to his plan."

TOO TRUE! Yes, an abuser is not in it for the good stuff. They are not called abusers because THEY expect to be abused back. They are called abusers so that they may have control over their victims in every sense. To scream out "you will not abuse me anymore", in any way, by actions or words, only angers them more. The glory for the career abuser is to see the effect of the abuse i.e. the victims anger. Then they may pat theirself on the back for a job well done.

Laura

operalover,

Yes, God allows for mistakes. But a mistake is supposed to be made and learned from. That is why it is called a mistake. P's never make "mistakes", according to them, each bad thing was for darn good reason. They have a justification for everything they say and do. In my case, he invented people to blame. Literally invented people! I guess the p's do some things that even they know they cannot blame on the significant other? They are so good at placing blame, and even smarter at knowing who to place blame on. Either way, you rarely, if ever, hear a p take responsiblity for their evil ways. It was always, will always be "the other guy" who did it.

Heck, in my case the "multiple personality disorder" possible diagnosis! It seems, in retrospect, that my ex p had totally run out of people to blame i.e me, bosses, family, society, invented people and now had to establish one or more personalites within his own mind so that he could actually, for once, accept blame on himself for his own p traits. Only, it would not really be him, but "one of his other personalities that lived in his head." Or maybe the uncle he was reincarnated from? Maybe he could blame him for lying, theft, cheating and conning?

sorry, rambling....what a fragmented mind these p's have. A horribly chopped up, scary, scary mind.

They sure go to a lot of trouble trying to place blame. They don't have a clue....to have no one to have to blame, just act and speak properly and obey the expectations of society (follow social norm) and the laws of the land (don't be a criminal). If they would only spend as much time being good as they do conjuring up people to blame for being bad, they would probably have a whole lot of free time on their hands! Yes, for thinking they are so very, very smart, they have not a clue what a waste of their life they are making.

Thanks, Laura

"Problem was my p's actions were who he was. I could not get so enraged at an "action" once in a while, because all his actions were psychopath related, they were him!"

Exactly. This is what fuels our our frustrated rage. The p pulls the exact same lies, cons and abuses over and over and over. We would have to be dumber than doors not to recognize that the p's "actions" are not the problem. The problem is these people themselves. My verbal "attacks" would always begin with attempts to get the p to see the patterns of his behavior, the repititous quality of the horrible things he did, i.e., attempt to get him to change by first recognizing the chronic nature of his problems. Of course, the p would turn the tables on me, accuse me of being abusive, bringing up the past, being mean. And he would lose the issue, and garble the conversation, and it would become about me, my faults. And he would employ a dozen other tactics to accuse, frustrate, and demonize me. And then yes, I would become his invention, the mean, carping thing he was portraying me as. Because, deep inside, I knew that the awful thing was him, and he was accusing ME of being it. And then, when I became it, he had won.

Laura and kris,

This is the reason I finally realized the futility of ever having a relationship of any kind with the P. The circular converstion going nowhere, except to the place of destruction and damage to me. Being the P's target, I had no other role.

Cherie