Please continue....

kris, operalover

Thank you for explaining sin to me in a way I understand.
You are right. I felt very, very guilty for my sins, the p did not feel guilty for his. I begged his forgiveness and he gave it. Lie. He gave it, only so he could take it back.

My friend also said that my ex p is doing the devils work. That even his planning of the address that would be found when I began my search for him was evil. He said that is beyond cruel, it is pure evil. He said some people's minds get so consumed with evil that there is no turning back, not ever, and that it appears that my ex p is one of those. When you think like the devil, you have to act like the devil too. You are so right, their sin is part of the flow.

Yet, I have to ask this...where was my conscience when I did/said sinful things? Does that make my sins "better" because I later regreted them, apologized for them, felt SO bad for them? While the p does not? I knew better than to do or say bad things to hurt the p, yet I did not stop myself. I do know this though...a lot of my slowness to recover, pull out of this all, is from beating myself to death for what I did/said to hurt the p. Had I not, I would have "been over" him the day he left. Okay, maybe a week or so later. Is that the way he wanted it, me blaming myself? Or is that part of having a conscience and knowing I must blame myself somewhat? Probably both. I just know that had I not been guilty of any heartache I caused the p, I would handle this all so much better.

To operalover, yes, you made a good point I had not thought of. I am the stronger one than my sister. I did not drop out of our parents lives. I always was envious that she had the courage to do that and believed that she has had a much better life. After all, she is still married to only one husband, children excel in their goals. Me, divorced 3 times, two children dropped out of school, other one graduated. All my children have "issues." None bad, most all are emotional. They were exposed to my parents all their lives. My sisters children were not. As I said earlier, one is a doctor, and I think another also.

So, yes, strong. Very strong. But very sad for what could have been for me and my children had they not been brought up with the influence of my parents. Am I making any sense? Believe me, I have one child that my mom thinks is hers. She has practically raised this one. Only this year I had to remind her that I was the mother, not her. Very "strongly" too. No, I did not ever "give" my children to her to raise. She took this particular one. Not physically (until they were a teen, and went by choice), but mentally/emotionally. This kid had the best of everything money could buy. She taught all about material goods and value. It was a mess, a total mess. Another cruel gesture to me, to "take" my child in a way that I could not. But he's turned out good. Yes, my son that I brag of so much here. The one who wants me to come live with him. Just today I stopped by to see him for only a minute and he invited me in for a while. I could not step in, had to go pay bills. He looked a little dissapointed.

So, it was a rough 23 years, mom "taking" him from me, but in the end, he loves me. Why? Because he always knew who his real mother was, it was me! I had to wait all these years to find that out.

Oooh! This post made me feel good inside! One of my greatest accomplishments was what I thought for 23 years belonged to my mother and it belonged to me all along!

Thank you both so much, really. I cannot express enough to all here who post what your words mean to me. It is so wonderful to find folks who truly understand where I am, where I've been and where I want to go.

Laura

Laura, I think that it is absolutely central that you don't cause these people "heartache", you cause them inconvenience and a momentary embarrassment (just until they rationalise themselves out of the truth that caused you to get on their case). For the rest, any two people say regrettable things to each other when they are irritated or angry. And normally they get worn out arguing after a shortish while. But these people regard each apology as a victory- you pled guilty! I've apolgised sincerely for thousands of things that I should not have (and I bitterly regret doing so now). Instead of apologising I should have packed a bag and hit the road. I yearn for the hurricane of rage from my dear ex wife and her horrible family. Not doing that before my two older kids were born was the biggest act of cowardice of my life. My dear ex brother in law had some extraordinary habits. And if for example he wished to respond to a call of nature, and the approriate device was in use, he was liable to pump bilges into the bath or the handbasin, noisily and with no particular concentration on his aim. Thus, whenever he came to my house, which in the early days was frequently, I would take the precaution of removing our tooth brushes and any other apparatus such as razor etc., and put them away in the bedroom. Now I continued to do this over all the years, and I told his parents why. It annoyed him, and them, no doubt about it, but as far as I was concerned, get caught doing that particular trick once and you're done for life, in my house anyway. On one occasion his parents came to stay for a few days. When they left, and I was preparing for bed- no toothbrushes. They had mistakenly taken my toothbrush and my wife's toothbrush with them. Now they didn't have a tooth between them, but they did nevertheless lug toothbrushes around with them. I recall that theirs had a substantial rubber prong on the end of the handle which used to give me the willies looking at on the side of the sink. So my wife called them at home, and oh yes, so sorry, mistakenly took the brushes, which was by all means impossible to do by mistake. Silly story, tiny thing- add it to a couple of hundred other things and you have a full blown family full of loonies. And you know, I'm still puzzled by it. Just a few years ago now, dear ex brother in law once again graces my home with his presence for a few days, together with his wife, who was perfectly nice. They're on a touring holiday you see, and much as he detests me, he doesn't have to fork out for a hotel. One evening, apropos of nothing that I recall, he ups and announces that my dear ex wife- his sister- had the amusing propensity of relieving herself in the bathtub while bathing (good gosh, now I think of it, he didn't specify the bathing part). And did she still do this he asks. It was plain at a glance that this indeed was in her habit menu, as she went bright red and sheepish looking. Now all this is not simply to dish the dirt on my dear ex vipers in law (although that is rather fun). I believe that stuff like that is indeed indicative of people who are serious screwballs. And there were dozens of strangenesses. Sorry, I got off my original point, which was "Apologise? My donkey!"

Laura,

"...where was my conscience when I did/said sinful things? Does that make my sins "better" because I later regreted them, apologized for them..."

Your conscinece was right where it was supposed to be...paying attention. Does it make your sins better when you regret and apologize for them? Yes.

Also, Laura, you wrote something some time ago that was very profoundly true. I challenge any woman to live with a psychopath for years and not turn into a harridan. I do not believe it can be done. Imagine a child whose parent trips her every time she walks by, and then laughs hysterically, gives her dishes of "ice cream" that turn out to be poop, kills her pets, tells all her friends disgusting, humiliating lies about her, until she has no friends, and sexually abuses her...do you think this child might feel like screaming at the parent when she's been duped, had, raped, again? Oh, she may not because she's a child. But she will feel like it. Now, take a gorwn woman whose husband treats her just this shabbily for years and years...that woman is going to scream at him.

I screamed at my husband. I managed to raise 2 children without ever screaming at them, so I am not a screamer, by nature, but oh, let me tell you, I screamed at that man.

Have you ever said one tenth the hurtful things to anyone else that you said to him? The source of the problem is not always the person who is most obviously acting out.

You have nothing to be sorry for.

For I promise you, you did not hurt his feelings at all. You hurt your own. You were behaving exactly according to his plan.

kris

BonnyR,

Wise words. I'm glad you "got off the original point", I laughed so hard at your story I almost cried! I actually Lol!

Yes, I screamed and yelled and said terrible things to the p. One time, maybe more than once, I said, "its a good thing you have your looks because you have nothing else going for you at all." I also told him that when his looks were gone i.e. getting old, what would he do? He had only his good looks to get women to con. I meant it when I said it, but it had to have hurt him.

Maybe that is the "projection" part of a psychopath? He angered me and hurt me so that I screamed all kinds of below the belt words at him, which made me feel like crap about myself. In turn I was angry at me for behaving in such a manner so unbecoming of a wife who claims to "love" her husband. Then he would lie, con, cheat, steal, did I say lie? again and I would scream the same evil words again. It was a vicious, useless, cycle.

He "projected" evil, I projected it back. Then he looked so hurt, dazed, saddened by my vile words describing him. In reality I know that a person should not "attack" their spouse as a person, but only "attack" those actions which cause pain. Problem was my p's actions were who he was. I could not get so enraged at an "action" once in a while, because all his actions were psychopath related, they were him! Therefore, the personal below the belt ranting and raving out of my mouth.

As for actually apologizing for much of it, that was rare on my part. I did aplogize for that which I felt most guilty about saying/doing. I believe I "apologized" by moving on to the next moment, the next day or week. By pretending that all h--- did not break loose prior. By believing that this too would pass and that the p would wake up one day a changed man, and I, a changed woman.

Over the course of the marriage, my anger went through stages. First one being "why did you do this to me?!"; Second one being, "how can you keep doing this stuff to me?!"; Third one being, "please, please forgive me for what I've done to you." This was vocalized.

While we were separated on/off in early 2001, we were communicating regularly by phone. His lies were escalating to mind-boggling proportion, I was an emotional wreck. At one point, in response to many explanations he had for a tremendous amount of "recent" lying, I asked him "out of all the women in the bar that night, why did you pick me? Why did you come up to me? I had a home, a life, I was happy. Why did you pick me to do these things to?!!!"

His exact answer?

"I didn't pick you Babe, I fell in love with you."

Which reminds me of a reply in another post:

"Please define your definition of love." That statement, in the above case, would apply to both me AND the p!

Thanks BonnyR,

Laura

kris,

"Have you ever said one tenth the hurtful things to anyone else that you said to him? The source of the problem is not always the person who is most obviously acting out."

Yes, I have. To my childrens father. Bottom line? I fall for abusive men. Then I react poorly to the abuse. Then I, or them, end the relationship and I wonder why I did not behave better.

"For I promise you, you did not hurt his feelings at all. You hurt your own. You were behaving exactly according to his plan."

TOO TRUE! Yes, an abuser is not in it for the good stuff. They are not called abusers because THEY expect to be abused back. They are called abusers so that they may have control over their victims in every sense. To scream out "you will not abuse me anymore", in any way, by actions or words, only angers them more. The glory for the career abuser is to see the effect of the abuse i.e. the victims anger. Then they may pat theirself on the back for a job well done.

Laura

operalover,

Yes, God allows for mistakes. But a mistake is supposed to be made and learned from. That is why it is called a mistake. P's never make "mistakes", according to them, each bad thing was for darn good reason. They have a justification for everything they say and do. In my case, he invented people to blame. Literally invented people! I guess the p's do some things that even they know they cannot blame on the significant other? They are so good at placing blame, and even smarter at knowing who to place blame on. Either way, you rarely, if ever, hear a p take responsiblity for their evil ways. It was always, will always be "the other guy" who did it.

Heck, in my case the "multiple personality disorder" possible diagnosis! It seems, in retrospect, that my ex p had totally run out of people to blame i.e me, bosses, family, society, invented people and now had to establish one or more personalites within his own mind so that he could actually, for once, accept blame on himself for his own p traits. Only, it would not really be him, but "one of his other personalities that lived in his head." Or maybe the uncle he was reincarnated from? Maybe he could blame him for lying, theft, cheating and conning?

sorry, rambling....what a fragmented mind these p's have. A horribly chopped up, scary, scary mind.

They sure go to a lot of trouble trying to place blame. They don't have a clue....to have no one to have to blame, just act and speak properly and obey the expectations of society (follow social norm) and the laws of the land (don't be a criminal). If they would only spend as much time being good as they do conjuring up people to blame for being bad, they would probably have a whole lot of free time on their hands! Yes, for thinking they are so very, very smart, they have not a clue what a waste of their life they are making.

Thanks, Laura

"Problem was my p's actions were who he was. I could not get so enraged at an "action" once in a while, because all his actions were psychopath related, they were him!"

Exactly. This is what fuels our our frustrated rage. The p pulls the exact same lies, cons and abuses over and over and over. We would have to be dumber than doors not to recognize that the p's "actions" are not the problem. The problem is these people themselves. My verbal "attacks" would always begin with attempts to get the p to see the patterns of his behavior, the repititous quality of the horrible things he did, i.e., attempt to get him to change by first recognizing the chronic nature of his problems. Of course, the p would turn the tables on me, accuse me of being abusive, bringing up the past, being mean. And he would lose the issue, and garble the conversation, and it would become about me, my faults. And he would employ a dozen other tactics to accuse, frustrate, and demonize me. And then yes, I would become his invention, the mean, carping thing he was portraying me as. Because, deep inside, I knew that the awful thing was him, and he was accusing ME of being it. And then, when I became it, he had won.

Laura and kris,

This is the reason I finally realized the futility of ever having a relationship of any kind with the P. The circular converstion going nowhere, except to the place of destruction and damage to me. Being the P's target, I had no other role.

Cherie

Cherie,

I wonder, since you ended it, has the outcome been worth it?
I am in awe that you ended it, I wish I had done so myself, had many opportunities and did not. I guess I just knew that all that has happened would happen, it would end up just like it has. That was something I could not cope with. So he ended it and I had to cope with it anyway. My mistake.

As I said earlier, I told him a few weeks before he left that he reminded me of my mother. I had not seen it in the slightest before. I do not believe my mother is a p. She is controlling. How I related the two, I can only think the he loves me, loves me not, loves me thing. As she has done all my life. He just stared at me. 2 weeks later left me. I guess I figured him out. Which is along the lines of what kris has said a little earlier.

Funny though, my mom always liked him a lot. She treated him very, very well. Of course, his outward facade was that of a Saint. Which made me look bad, which made Mom no doubt, pleased. She even blamed me somewhat for him leaving. If only I hadn't done/said this or that.

Well, I am happy that you were able to leave your p. You are much stronger than I and that strength will get you through the aftermath I am certain.

Laura

BonnyR and all,
Since I have somewhat of an analytical and introspective nature, and beause of all the therapy I received years ago in recovering from having a Psychopathic father, I normally look at relationship issues in my life, realize my part in them, and apologize for my behavior. On the other hand, I am assertive and not afraid to speak my mind, albeit with respect. It has not been my nature to tolerate continuous abuse, although I do understand that in normal relationships people say and do regretable things at times. I believe that before I met my Psychopath I was a good communicator, and relatively emotionally healthy, but vulnerable due to extraordinary life circumstances in my life at the time.

This is how I started out in my relationship with my Psychopath. After our early times together, he seemed to have issues with me and he would become very angry and offended. He readily admitted that he was hot tempered and often laughed about it. When he would explain his feelings, he was clear and articulate. His words seem to make sense. I would sincerely apologize, and as part of making amends, would think about what behaviors I needed to change in myself. Very slowly, subtly, his issues became more and more serious and charged with emotion. Some of them were the same issue, different circumstances. I started to really feel like I was not trying hard enough to make necessary changes. It seemed like I was looking at myself with a microscope. His rages became more commonplace. This is hard to explain. It was soooo subtle. Normally anyone raging at me(much different than anger being expressed)would make me wary, uncomfortable, and normally I would not tolerate that behavior. But this was different. Somehow, somewhere along the line I began to feel really bad about me. I felt responsible for his rages. I started questioning more and more about myself. I started apologizing for things that were not my fault at all, but by that time I was so confused and so out of touch, I believed he was right. He was one of the most articulate men I have ever met. His words were smooth, intelligent, reasonable. Afterwards, his words were full of compassion and acceptance and "love". I was brainwashed, big time.

I have found myself again and am no longer living with confusion in a brainwashed state. It took a long time to come back and the price was high to my physical and emotional well being. I will never be the same as I was, but older, wiser, a lot more wary and cynical. I still apologize when I am wrong and make amends. I still look at myself. But since my trust was so deeply wounded. I am still unsure of myself and too wary. I am starting, slowly, to change that.

neverthesame said, "I was brainwashed, big time."

I spoke with a coworker tonight regarding the same. She asked if I had received any "help" i.e. therapy for that? Is there therapists that specialize in this?

Anyway, I remember the p telling me that when he was in the Army, they taught him what to do if captured by the enemy. How to avoid being brainwashed. I would think that they also had to teach him what brainwashing consisted of to be able to teach him how to avoid it. Lucky me, I was brainwashed by an expert.

I know what you mean about looking at yourself, apologizing when needed, deeply wounded trust.

I still apologize when I should, but only then. Sometimes I don't trust my decision to apologize or not. I wonder if I really did or said something truly wrong, or if I was just standing up for myself? Yes, still brainwashed.

Sometimes it helps for me to say to myself, "This is not the p. This person is not a p." Then I ask myself if an apology is warranted. I force my mind to decipher reality from false perception. When I apologize I do it differantly than I did with the p. Instead of saying, "I didn't mean to be such a B, its just that you...." That was a waste of my breath.

Now I say, "I feel bad about....and it (offends me, hurts me, angers me), and I would like to discuss this." They listen, I listen. THEN, if warranted, I apologize. With the p, I was apologizing BEFORE it was even determined that I was at fault.

Laura

BonnyR wrote:

"Instead of apologising I should have packed a bag and hit the road. I yearn for the hurricane of rage from my dear ex wife and her horrible family. Not doing that before my two older kids were born was the biggest act of cowardice of my life."

I really get where you're coming from with this. I sure could have saved myself a lot of mess, too.

Cherie

Yes Cherie,

As you wrote on the other thread, constant rewarding of rotten behaviour was a permanent feature of my son's growing up. At age ten his reading skills were quite poor, so we all agreed that there would be no TV at all during the week when school was on. And the effect was immediate, most noticeable in a reduction of stress. Then I would travel for work for a couple of weeks, and out the window with the rules. Money for everything. A very poor year's performance at school followed by an invitation to visit a relative in an exciting country, far away. I wasn't against it, but felt it had to be done following concessions for next years school performance at least. It had to be discussed. I get called away and its "leaving, on a jet plane" for him. I came home to a fait accompli. (That was a neat one that- we were frankly well off, and the cost was not of the slightest concern to me- just the fact that he had loafed at school, and now got a dream holiday. And I only found out six years later that we had not even paid for the ticket- the relative had, and presumably had been advised that the undersigned would not agree to pay).

Anything, everything funded with no requirement at all for a demonstration of effort, appreciation or (of course) thanks of any kind. All done with my considerable efforts to stop the rubbish. And I said to the woman, that if this train went on, I feared that it would end in jail. And cool as a clam she says maybe that's the best place for him. Her son! Who she is giving all this stuff to- up to this day I might add. She doesn't care at all. And thus my efforts to wise her up over six years were of course wasted, because they were all predicated on a notion that as a mother she had to care as much as I did, but she didn't understand. She did understand, and for her own reasons apparently seeks to destroy him. She's done a cracker of a job.

Well you see Operalover, Between having a foreboding that rotten behaviour will land the guy in jail, and the event actually occurring, there is a fairly unpleasant process called committing a crime. And ordinarily, one might expect such a prospect to be a trifle upsetting to a Mother. One cannot, I think, say humph, best place for him, without betraying that this would ease your mind in as much as it gets him out of your face. That is not my case.

Well, when he was fourteen and we walked together along a river bank, I said that if I was he I would bring our little tent and camp with one or two pals. Like you do, or anyway, like we all did. And he said, perfectly seriously, what if an animal comes? I mean, we don't have grizzlies around here. I guess that that fine spirit has protected him from much that might otherwise have come his way. But, I fear that it will not continue to do so. Needs must when the devil drives, and he does indeed appear to be driving here. Of course, "turning to crime" is a matter of getting caught and prosecuted. I was quite sure a couple of years ago that he was stealing at his work in a sort of junk shop. Someone was, and as he explained his "suspicions" of the identity of the culprit, he sadly caught my eye. A sort of truth passed. But he went on the attack, and tried to bring the union down on the owner for not paying him enough, and got thrown out. I like to think that God still had a handle somewhere on his heart for him to commit that financial suicide. It stopped him at that place, anyway. And then there was the counterfeiting story. Three words, or four, and the thing is clear like crystal. They are so annoying those idiots who don't realise that every trick to cheat has been tried for thousands of years, and wiser people can see their game instantly. Anyway, he's fired from there now. Ordinarily such a guy would pump iron for six months, and go to the Legion. He won't. What he will, I have no notion.

BonnyR,

You said so much on this post. Especially about the employment situations where one would think an arrest might be forthcoming, but only another job termination.

In the case also of my ex p. At a major pop company, he did not turn in required paperwork, was verbally warned. Still did not turn in paperwork. He was stuffing it in his tool box. Finally suspended without pay. Ultimately, he abandoned that job. Literally.

At another position, the p was a school bus mechanic. He also drove a bus when short staffed on drivers. Again, ultimately fired (his claim), for leaving a young boy asleep on the back of the bus. Fired, as opposed to sued by the parents. He even claimed to have driven home without realizing the young boy was asleep on the bus! He was called at home and fired.

Then there was the position he had from June 1998 to June 2001. Hauling fuel. He would be late, not go in, be sick all the time, and eventually, take the tanker truck to payday loan companies and write hot checks and also to convenience stores to buy lottery tickets i.e. gamble. He also took it to the Dog Track. So, here is this big tanker truck, big company, NOT delivering fuel, and no one says anything?

Why? I know why. Because a psychopath is the most charming, smooth talking, naive acting, innocent looking person an employer would want to employ. What I am trying to say is the p causes trouble of some type, illegal or otherwise, at one job. They think, "just a kid," "nice guy, messed up, hate to fire him, have no choice," "will give this person a second chance, will talk to them about this," etc. The problem here is the prior employers do not speak with the present employer who does not speak to the next employer. They all thought it was a "one time" thing. They had not a clue that it is a career of the p to mess up at jobs until they have to quit or do get fired. After termination, by choice or not, they move on, charmingly, convincingly, pleasantly to the next position. Then it starts all over again.

I used to wonder how my ex p could have 10 jobs in 8 years, yet not over 3 weeks between jobs. Somebody would always hire him, regardless of what crime or non-crime he had committed at the previous job. I finally figured out how. Because they did not know he was a psychopath, they felt sorry for him, they determined him to be human and after all, humans make mistakes! I am not certain on this, but I think that a lot of p's gravitate to professions where a background check is not done, where previous employers are not called. In the case of my ex p, he was mostly a truck driver and there are a shortage of those all over the U.S. If you can produce a valid Class A CDL with a clean Motor Vehicle Record, and are breathing, your hired! What crimes will show up on a MVR? None, unless traffic related, and then the p would be smart enough to not apply for truck driving positions!

He even told me that he was kicked out of high school for throwing another student into a locker and the locker caved in. He said his father was given the option to pay for the locker damage and the p be expelled, or the p would be charged with destruction of school property. The p and father took expulsion as opposed to jail. So see? In the face of crime, still got by with it. Given a choice.

The p always has a choice when it comes to crime and wrongdoing. They have the choice to avoid punishment for it. It seems the very people who should be inflicting the punishment are the same one's giving the p the choice.

We see the whole picture, because we are living with them, witnessing it firsthand. The employer sees it only once and does not see a major problem, just a major inconvenience.

Oh, the travesty of it all! That is why they are psychopaths. They know how to ACT, how to PLAY people. They know the "game" and they intend to win. I think they expect to get fired, never jailed. I also think that their inconsistant work histories prove that they are employable, regardless of anything done at a previous job.

Loved your post. Agree with operalover. You are a good man, a good father. It has to be hard to watch this all and just shake your head and wait for the outcome, if there ever is one.

Laura

I had a long talk with my elderly mother this morning. Specifically, we talked about my psychopathic father and his family. I found out this morning that he cheated on her throughout the entire 49 years they were married. My father was a brilliant, sadistic, violent, cruel man, without conscience. He cared about no one but himself. His father, whom he detested, was the same way. Today I also found out that his mother (my grandmother) was quite possibly a narcissist. My mother describes her as cold and unfeeling, and always boasting about herself and her accomplishments. I remember her as a young child, and through my "child sense" somehow knew she did not love me or want me around. I grew up with virtually no relationship with her, unlike my other grandma who I adored. My father's sister attempted suicide several times. In retrospect, I am not surprised.

I am sickened by the psychopathy in my family.

(((neverthesame)))

It's so hard, the road we've had to walk. And have to walk. The ugly fact of it is always there.

Dear neverthesame,

Such a harsh reality you are having to face. I'm so sorry about the tremendous hurt you are having. And yet I understand. ((((neverthesame)))) Know that you are not alone. My father's sister committed suicide when I was in my thirties. I had been somewhat close to her during my childhoold and adolescence. Her daughter, my cousin committed suicide when I was still a teeneager. What a legacy some of us have been given. The good I see in it is our ability to still carry on with our sanity intact and our resilience.

Thank you for sharing about this. Your mother telling you these things after so long.

Wishing you peace and respite.

Love,
Cherie

I had a brief relationship with someone who I now know is a sociopath (thanks to this forum), but the bigger impact was realizing that this relationship seemed all too familiar, I experienced this exactly before, and came to the realization that my father, misdiagnosed as bipolar, was really a psychopath and my mother, his slave.
My relationship with this P gave me the direct experience of what it was *exactly* that my parents were to each other. I've been crying for both, neither had a clue what hit them and there are no answers. My mother was anniihilated, her soul taken away from her. She needed her children as a buffer. I didn't have children as I knew she would need me throughout the rest of her life to protect her, but of course, I couldn't. She was owned by my father, who resented attention she gave to any other living creature on the face of the earth besides him.
My father didn't have a soul, is this the essence of a psychopath's dilemma? That he/she is an alien creature, aware of it and can only rob from another's life to get what he/she can never have...to be able to feel love and other emotions? I and my siblings were subjected to much emotional/psychological abuse (physical earlier on, but my mom made my father stop that...he did, but only because he would lose his victims if he didn't). He said he "owned" us, but he knew he didn't, couldn't. He owned my mom, he possessed her fully, yet simultaneously loathed her because he could posses her.
And now, to truly understand the reality and face it. To realize that I still had this time bomb within me, waiting to be exploited. My father didn't own me, so I thought, but maybe he did.
My boundaries went out the window with this P, a handsome, extremely intelligent, multi-talented man who knew exactly how to penetrate my soul. I went into a trance state when I saw him, I knew this and couldn't help myself. But thank God, he quickly dropped his mask and I found my anger, which propelled me out of what I know now to be a life-threatening situation.
My blessing is that I recognize my history, which will save me in the future. My siblings, well, I see history repeating itself. I will pass on this information, talk to them but reliving this pain is horrible, and they may not be able to do it.
Are there any resources where you can find therapists who have specific experience dealing with this? The candid sharing of experiences here is tremendously healing, I feel so much more hope.

I fell for it,

"My father didn't have a soul, is this the essence of a psychopath's dilemma? That he/she is an alien creature, aware of it and can only rob from another's life to get what he/she can never have...to be able to feel love and other emotions?"

I think this is an apt description. Whether the psychopath doesn't have a soul, or is cut off from it, on all levels of consciousness, is a question. I believe, cut off.

I am not aware of resources for finding therapists who work with victims of psychopaths. I think this is just so new, victims becoming aware, and attempting healing, of their own volition, that there has been no response to this need, as of yet. I have heard of individual therapists, across the country, who do work with victims. The only information I still have a link to is in regarding a forum at psychopathic_style@yahoogroups.com. This, I believe, was started by a therapist named John McCormick, who works with victims of psychopaths. Perhaps he can guide you to someone in your area.

It is vitally important to find someone who has some depth of understanding. A therapist who doesn't is worse than none. Alot of the standard "wisdom" about the human psyche lends itself to further victimization of a psychopath's victim. Most therapists are woefully ignorant when it comes to psychopathy. Psychopathy turns all therapeutic "wisdom" inside out. A therapist ignorant of the dynamic that has formed the victim will view the victim of the source of all the problems because she is unaware that such people as the psychopath exist who can actually do the things the victim is attempting to describe.

kris

>My boundaries went out the window with this P. Handsome, extremely intelligent,multi-talented man who knew exactly how to penetrate my soul. I went into a trance state when I saw him. I knew it, but I couldn't help myself<

I remember telling some friends. I am myself around everybody in my life. . .but this person. My mind would go on a "hold" mode. I was anything but myself. I found myself screening what I said instead of being spontaneous. I remember my heart would begin beating wildly when he showed up, I'd get really nervous. Totally uncharactaristic for me. He was someone I admired, respected and looked up to. I thought, I got it bad for this guy. Yep. . .I sure didi!
It has been a comfort finding so many similarities in the postings. It has been such a comfort hearing from those who have been there and that it can get better, if willing to take the steps. I'm also am looking for help in working through this issue. I have an appointment Thursday with a Battered Womans center. I pray the best for you.
Sincerely,
Finished

kris, I'm attending an informal dinner for spouses/family members/friends of people with BPD/psychopathy, hopefully, will be able to get some refererrals. I'm going with a friend whose ex-hubby has BPD. I share your concern about lack of empathy with a therapist who doesn't really understand what this is about. Yes, this could really be a disaster with the wrong therapist. I'll post any viable resources.

finished, Yep, this guy got to me, like no one else ever has. I guess this is what being hooked on heroin feels like, always looking for your next fix and it's never enough. Reading through these posts and seeing the patterns helps. I don't ever want this to happen again.
My best to you in your healing process!

Fell, You must live in a progressive area. BPD is a hot topic right now, and resources are readily available, but psychopathy is just emerging as something people outside acadmia are taking a look at. I look forward to hearing what you find out.

It's heart-sickening how ignorant most therapists are when it comes to psychopathy. Excuse me. Antisocial Personality Disorder. Let's be politically correct, here.

The last therapist I saw with my psychopath husband did not see ASPD at all in him. He dropped out of the "therapy" after he had thoroughly conned her. This therapist knew he had beaten me, threatened my life, slept with my friends, had affairs with teenagers, peeped, exposed, lied, stolen, abused his positions, turned my community against me; he had admitted to all of this. She also knew he had been accused by some children of molesting them, which he had not denied. He had told her if he did it, he didn't remember. She also knew he probably had molested his own children. She said to me, "You think he has ASPD. I don't see that."

I said, "Why not?"

She said, "Where is the antisocial behavior? What crimes has he committed?"

I guess she meant he had no criminal record. Therefore he didn't have ASPD. Most people, including most therapists have a cardboard insightless image of a psychopath. They wouldn't know a psychopath if one hit them over the head with a two by four.

They don't think a psychopath is charming, intelligent, attractive, personable, nice. In fact, a successful psychopath is all these things. And that is why a successful one has no criminal record. Nobody ever pressed charges against my husband. The next door neighbors had a talk with him after he window peeped the wife in the shower, and rang her doorbell and exposed himself to her. When he did it, again, they had another talk.

A successful psychopath can talk himself out of just about anything. ASPD? No way. No psychopath worth his salt would ever get that label.

Said therapist lectured me, repeatedly, to let Psychopath have his job, to not ruin that for him, to not turn his family against him. She was clearly agonized that I had turned his children against him. In her view, I was taking everything away from him. I did not do any of that. There was a leak into his job community about his office affair. I was not responsible for the leak. I never spoke to his family about the problems, at all, ever (she got the idea I would turn them all against him from Psychopath; my sin was apparently inviting them to my daughter's baby shower). I did not turn his youngest daughter against him. She put him out of her life after he beat me, for the hundredth time, and held me captive with a knife for many hours, and I called her, afterwards, out of need. Okay, I did that. But I did not mean to turn her against him; I tried to talk her into being chummy with him, again, afterwards (I was sick).

When we reconciled, briefly, the therapist lectured me, endlessly, that I had better darn well be having sex with him. She was worried that I wouldn't play fair with poor Psychopath. Me being such a mean, spiteful person.

And people wonder how we who were so victimized could have stayed so long. Here was a credentialed therapist who was not in love with the man, hadn't had his children, hadn't been his wife for decades, had never suffered any abuse, but knew about it, and blamed it all on me. The psychopath was that good. If he could convince her it was all me, how much more easily could he convince me?

And she was not the first therapist to blame it all on me. I believe she was the fourth. Which is all of them, except for the first and the last.

The therapy situation is appalling. No one should be permitted to work with a psychopath's victim who is not very specially trained. Better yet, all those who do should have experience with psychopaths.

A few years, I met a young woman through a circumstance involving a psychopath. The psychopath was serving a prison sentence for raping her younger sister, who had been 11, at the time, 6, when the molesting began.

As in so many of these circumstances, these girls' mother was also a psychopath. I was going through an intense awakening period regarding psychopathy, and the gripping awareness that my husband was a psychopath.

This young woman's mother had been convicted of embezzling funds from her company, but had escaped with probation "because she had children at home to care for". She had stolen an inheritance left to her daughters. The man who raped her daughter was the mother's boyfirend. She married him after his conviction. She spread rumors through the town that her daughter had seduced him, and her daughter was osctracized. She had to leave town. The town took to holding prayer vigils for the rapist.

I was talking with this young woman, the victim's older sister. I was describing my husband's horrible acts, and how he emerged from every situtaion smelling like a rose.

She said, "My mother could have been found with a bloody knife dripping over her dead grandmother, on the town square, and she would have walked away from it, wearing a medal."

People who haven't been harmed by a psychopath just have no idea what this is about. It's about evil. And through ignorance, many participate in that evil.

kris,
Yes, I'm curious to see if anyone there drew any further conclusions than BPD. Yep, it's still not politically correct to say some people are beyond help, I appreciate your irony!
I see where I have these huge holes in my personality, probably stemming from my mother's acceptance of my father's abuse. And I thought I never absorbed any of her lessons, because I was the one who fought for her? Hah! Doh! Surprise, surprise.
Thanks for the warning about therapists, your experience is appalling. Unless you're dead, will anyone take a woman's complaints seriously. Some things never change, even in 2002.
A new Zen koan: what is the sound of you biting your own butt?

I fell, I like that: what is the sound of you biting your own butt?

I know a Zen thought isn't supposed to have a response, but this is what came to my mind: It is the sound of a soundless primal scream.

Well Dianne,

These two seem to be close on the mark of my "little guy", now 25, criminal
record and all.

It is the oddest thing you know. I have a friend, a lot younger than I am.
His Father is my age. And this friend is the most professional sort-
knowledgeable, decent, hard working- the very best kind of man. And he
confided to me that his young brother, 25, is like my son. Stealing money,
getting into hellish accidents, not interested in anything, no sport, no
computers, no nothing. Stealing from employers that know his Dad, and who
for that reason took him on. And, recently ill, he had of course to get the
nurse pregnant. You know, just to put the point on it. The girl turned up at
my friend's Fathers house explaining, and demanding. Frankly, I wonder if
she isn't the same type as the boy, and set the stupid boy up. For my
friend's Father is commander of a highly specialised navy ship, and thus the
boy is from a regarded family. Of course, I asked laughingly how the
preparations for the nuptuals were coming on. My friend, the brother of this
guy said succinctly- I don't know, and frankly speaking i don't want to
know. And he is not a dismissive sort, or immune to other's problems.
Fortunately for him, he is only a brother. The Father for now apparently
pretends toughness. I mean, he would, wouldn't he? But the boy still lives
with him. And, in that far country, Navy Commander or not, there is not much
money to spare.

It all appears to come from nowhere, and is so, so saddening.

Rgds Ian

by all means post this if you feel it worth while

Hi rick. I couldn't reply to your post? We officially broke up on June 12th, 2003 (10 months ago) but I guess it really ended for me when I found out about infidilities in 1998 and 1999. I was just living in some stupid fantasy world, imagining these things weren't really happening but deep down inside I knew things were terribly wrong and was searching for many years for an answer.

You were right! within 24 hours I received a text message. He said, 'sorry about yesterday things were a little awkward, sorry it was abit unexptected, I was shocked, you can be my friend if you respect me and my relationship, if you are pleasant next time you can be introduced to her'.

He is such a creep I can't believe it. If our paths should cross again I will be ignoring him next time.



Just needed to share... I ran into my ex P today. I knew this day would eventually come. Yes, he was with his latest victim. It truly was a freak coincedence as he was some 330 kilometres from his home and I was some 100 kilometres away from my home on vacation. (1 mile = 1.6 km). The most wonderful part is I had literally stepped out of a beauty salon and felt and looked a million bucks if I may say so. I had my hair washed, cut, coloured, streaked and blow dryed and felt on top of the world. Come out and low and behold there he is. He just sort of appeared, I don't even know where he came from, I just looked up and he was there. We both got a shock to tell you the truth, a pure chance encounter. He actually gave me a hug and a kiss (trying to look good for the new girlfriend I suppose who probably has no clue that I am the ex of 8 years and was probably fed some pack of lies if she latered enquired of who I was). He looked terrified that I was going to be vocal about a few things but I wasn't. I just asked him was he well? and said I'll see you later then. I felt empowered by this experience, I feel truly grateful that he is no longer in my life and is now someone elses problem. I know this is mean and I have nothing against the new girl but deep down inside I was pleased to see that the girlfriend is NOT very attractive at all. I guess you always fear they will look like a model.

Anyway just needed to post.

NDWB...

Wow!!! I have gone through the scenario countless times as to how I would act should I happen to bump into my P. I'm sure it will happen eventually, when I least expect it. How wonderful that it occurred when you were feeling so good about yourself. And it sounds like you handled it brilliantly... particularly since it has only been 9 months since the two of you broke up. (I think I'm correct with that figure.) In any event, don't be surprised if this guy tries to contact you via telephone or e-mail. Have you thought about how you would handle that at this point?

Rick

I too agree that it is futile to try to have a real relationship with a P.

I have just come to the realization with the help of a therapist that my mother is one. In addition she sustained a head injury several years ago with injury to the frontal lobes, resulting in 'pseudopsychopathy', so this just caused intense added problems.

After the injury when I realized that my mother was telling my 7 year old daughter she was stupid, exposing herself to my daughter, telling my daughter that my daughter didn't love her, that I didn't love my daughter..etc..on and on and on, I tried to get my mother back to her neurologist and Dr. She was not so impaired that she was nonfunctional- in fact she was/is very functional, she was just an emotional monster- a lot less subtle but much the same as she always was, I realize now.

She would refuse to get in the car to go to appointments, would call and cancel the Dr. app'ts I had made for her. I had already started my daughter and myself in counselling. We lived with my mother since my daughter was a baby.

I asked my sister to help me with an intervention with my mother, but she refused. My mother -unknown to me at the time was telling my sister that I was persecuting her, and trying to put her 'away'. I did not know this-my sister never told me this- until about three years later. I also found out that my mother had been telling her friends and neighbors that I was doing this to her. No one came to me and told me or asked me about it. My mother is very very convincing and can evoke most people's pity very well.

I remember that she did this to the children in our family concerning our dad- actually turned us against him- by lying about him. Since he probably did not know what she was saying and my mother was pretty sure we would not ask him about what all she was saying about him, I imagine his life was a living hell.

I recognize now the strategies she is using on me were the same she used on him. She tells people lies about you, tells them she is afraid of you and your 'anger', somehow gets these people not to verify what all she is saying, by coming to you and clearing the air, and then watches while people start to avoid you, and stop talking to you. Then acts very innocent when you remark at how many people have stopped associating or talking to you.My mother used my fathers' drinking as a weapon against him- alot of people simply believed her lies because after all, he drank too much....I am an unwed mother and have been in recovery in AA for 17 years, and I believe my mother has used the 'undesirable person' strategy and her own squeaky clean image-and its just an image- to do her dirty work.

My sister finally told me all the garbage my mother had been telling her about the things I was supposedly doing to her; yet all the while I was consulting therapist after therapist and head injury resources to try to get all of us help. My sister knew this, yet never confronted my mother, or told me the scope of my mother's smear campaign-in our own family.My sister also didn't want my mother mad at her- the inheritance you know.

My sister told me in the last month, when I told her I just couldn't handle it anymore, that if she stood up for me to mom, that mom would get mad at her, and cut her out of the will. Therefore it was better for me to simply keep taking mom's abuse until she died- she now has cancer-Also if I angered mom, then I probably would get cut out of her will - but not to worry, my sister would make sure that I had a home and money to live on if that happened.

I am disabled with a physical chronic illness. I also had a breakdown three years after my mother's head injury when she became friends with a weird man younger than herself, who I didn't want around my daughter and I. When I told my mother this she simply told me that if I didn't like it I could arrange not to be there when he came over. She also told me that she would 'be sure to tell him 'I said he was weird.Apparently she did. I was harrassed, had weird phone calls and followed to my sister's home when I tried to get away from all this garbage. I could not prove it was him doing this- I did call the police- .I started being unable to sleep, and having panic attacks. My mother thought this was very amusing.I finally stressed out so I actually went to mental institution for a week and was given medication.My mother arranged this with a counsellor she had once seen.Nice of her to help wasn't it?

I would have left but I had nowhere to go.I had no money, and my mother told me she couldn't afford to help me move out. My sister had made it clear she did not want my daughter and with her-150 miles away.She also did not want my mother with her.

After this my mother suddenly 'found ' the money to help me and my daughter move out. Now that I was 'certifiably a 'nut' in her eyes, and she could tell her lies bolstered by the fact that I had had a breakdown, why she was nice as could be.


I am so angry at both her and my sister. There is no point and nothing to reach in my mother. She is sweet as can be most of the time and totally denies she says and does the things she has done and is doing. She has the pastor , and two elders of our church fooled. She eats breakfast with them every Sunday morning.I had left this church and taken my daughter out, and we didn't attend for almost a year. Then my mother had the pastor call my daughter. Apparently he seemed to feel it was perfectly fine to call a 12 year old and speak privately to her, by passing me as her parent. God knows what my mother had told him to make him feel this was warranted.

When I confronted the pastor, he just said he was concerned about my daughter's nonattendance.I found it very odd that he didn't have a woman to call a female child, or that he didn't speak to ME about my daughter's nonattendance, like an upfront porfessional person would. Strange that no one from the church called unless we attended other denominations. This happened twice and each time my daughter 'mysteriously' would stop wanting to go to the other churches.

If this had happened in an open atmosphere, I could have dealt with this better. But it was done in secrecy and behind my back. My daughter and I still did not attend my mothers' church until she became ill with cancer- then suddenly my daughter wanted to go back to this church.

She was now 14 and she told me that if I didn't take her she would just get her grandmother to take her. So I did.My daughter is very happy there. I am happy for her, but I am not happy there, yet I want to be there to watch over her. I am at the point where I hardly trust anyone; either because I have no idea what my mother has said to them- I can imagine she wouldn't let the chance go by to tell people that I am a 'mental case'- I am just exhausted now.

I almost just don't care anymore what she says or does. I have no allies except my counsellor. I do not want to confuse and divide my daughter further- she has had enough of that.

I have tried to have a life that reduces my mother's contact and influence as much as possible. I am somewhat dependant on my mother financially, and there is the problem.

I just wish that I had really recognized and admitted to myself what my mother was and is years ago, and moved to the other side of the country.I now realize what she did to my father, and to my brother- he killed himself on my parents wedding anniversary- two years after my father killed himself.All my mother had to say about that was..."what a waste". I never saw her cry for either my brother or my father. My brother was only 19.These both happened almost thirty years ago.I cannot even make myself think what she must have done to my brother and the manipulation and lies she told about my father.After therapy I remembered her exposing herself to us as kids, and seeing to for what it is: sexual abuse.

I have arranged for my child's guardian to be someone other than my sister, in the event of my death. I plan to keep hanging in there and speaking truth to my daughter as much as I can.As long as I can.

Thanks for this forum:

Hi Alexa,

Welcome to the forum - glad you found it. I read through your post - those are terrible experiences to have gone through. I know these problems must seem completely overwhelming to you right now and perhaps have seemed that way for a long time. Many of us who post here have had experiences with psychopathic personalities in varying degrees and it can leave one feeling helpless and drained. You must have a great deal of mental strength to have come this far.

It is especially difficult when these circumstances happen in families because we are all conditioned to think of family members as the people we would normally turn to for support in distressing circumstances.

I know what it's like to have things said about you behind your back that misrepresent who you are and create an image of you that's negative and misleading. It really is a form of psychological harassment and particularly bad because as you know it is difficult to address directly. I also can relate to the natural anger at being victimized like that and feeling like your rights are being trampled upon and at the same time others are ignoring it as if it isn't taking place. In my view, it's a feeling of being trapped because of not knowing how to alleviate the frustration and usual obsessive thoughts that occur in situations like that.

Please try to find every and all ways of making yourself feel better both emotionally and physically. I have found that even simple things like trying to eat healthy, getting some exercise (as difficult as it is to do that when someone is already feeling drained), reading motivational quotes and other positive books, listening to music or something else that you enjoy and that will help divert your mind and most of all trying to surround yourself with people who are supportive really go a long way in helping one cope. It's good that you have a counsellor - that makes a big difference to help sort through the issues.

I think it's also a good sign that you said you almost don't care what your mother says or does anymore because in my view, that shows that her actions will perhaps be less likely to hurt you if you can adopt that attitude. I know it must be difficult for your daughter as well and it's heartening to see how you try to protect her.

I encourage you to look up information on the internet about coping strategies, dealing with stress, etc. I have found that sometimes even the smallest changes can make a big difference in helping one feel better and more hopeful.

You take care,

Sylvie

my in-law is a psychpath and terroizes and threatens all of us. They are getting divorced. What should I expect from the psychopath in law.

Also this is my first time here ana how do I post a new thread? Thanks and I'm glad I found this place. It's almost a relief to know I'm not so along and there are alot of people who have to deal with people like this. I was amazed.

Alexa, I'm new to the forum too as of this a.m. When I read your post your mom sounds just like my mom and my daughter in law - to a T. I was astounded. I don't know what to think. We've lived in our situation for 13 years now and it's been horrendous.

I'm amazed that 1 person can hold so much power over so many people. And appauled by it too. I don't know what to do - my in law controls the kids and everybody. I'm ready to move several states away to get away from her but I am really concerned about my son. If I leave then he has no support at all. I want him to leave her but he doesn't seem to be able to.

She also tells the most absurd lies and most people believe her. She is proficient in getting people to believe her - I'm always amazed that people are so gullible.

She tells people terrible things about my son, about me, about the kids, she turns everybody against each other. I personally don't understand why they are allowed to live - they are so destructive and horrible.

Good luck in your situation. I don't even know what to tell people in situations like ours. I'm thankful for this site I found tonight though. At least now I feel like I have a place to come to so I don't feel so alone and isolated anymore.