How do you know if someone is a paychopath? My 17yr. old son he is kind and loving to children and animals, but other things he does He will lie,when he wants something he wants it NOW and will lie, cheat, and steal to get it.He is like a conartist.He does drugs stays in trouble and will turn things around everything is always someone else fault.On the out side most people are shocked to find out he has been in trouble.How do you deal whith a child like this?

Starr,

Welcome to the forum. As painful as it may be, it is wonderful that your son has a mother that is willing to look at the complete picture and to ask questions. That is great and he is a lucky, loved young man.

How do you determine if someone is a Psychopath/N? Well, first do as much research as you possible can on the subject. We are all here for you.

Rick

Hi starr, welcome to the forum. I agree with Rick as far as an evaluation and reading Dr. Hare's book. The main criteria for being a Psychopath is the lack of conscience. Do you see your son having a conscience over things that happen?

Starr wrote: "How do you know if someone is a paychopath? My 17yr. old son he is kind and loving to children and animals, but other things he does He will lie,when he wants something he wants it NOW and will lie, cheat, and steal to get it.He is like a conartist.He does drugs stays in trouble and will turn things around everything is always someone else fault.On the out side most people are shocked to find out he has been in trouble.How do you deal whith a child like this?"

Depending on who you talk to, your son may or may not be old enough to diagnose. Some say 15 years old is the minimum age at which a reliable diagnosis can be made, some say 18 years old. I'd hesitate to diagnose someone on my own, I think for many reasons it calls for a professional who is not involved in the situation. One of the tools of a psychopath is presenting a convincing facade to the people they are trying to manipulate.

As to how to deal with a child like that, it may or may not be comforting to know that basically no one knows how to raise such children. Since your son is now 17 years old, I don't think there's a lot you can do now to affect his character and development. It may be more important to figure out a set of family rules to prevent him from taking advantage of the family.

If it's any comfort, according to a friend of mine who is a clinical psychologist who has national recognition, many psychopaths "burn out" in their middle twenties. It isn't that they develop a conscience, it's just that they get so tired of being in constant trouble that they start to change their behaviour to avoid it. They don't have any internalized understanding of ethics or fair play but they're not stupid. For example, if a given psychopath doesn't enjoy going to jail, s/he stops doing things that lead straight to jail.

So one thing that helps is refusing to enable or protect the psychopath. Never do anything to prevent the psychopath from experiencing the full consequences of their actions. It won't help the psychopath develop the "inner compass" or a true sense of empathy but it may just help train them to avoid doing things that get them in trouble.

Eithne

Thank you again for you straight forward post. My two youngest sons have also exhibited P behavior. Husband and father is P#1 in my life. They all show similiar characteristics. P#1 was an alcholic and I thought that was what the behavior was all about. The two younger sons also drink and drug and have been in trouble with the law. (Possession, DUI'S). But the lying, stealing, cheating, manipulating their way in and out of situations, I am beginning to wonder if they are P's rather that substance abusers. The behavior is sooooo similiar and the characteristics.

>>As to how to deal with a child like that, it may or may not be comforting to know that basically no one knows how to raise such children. Since your son is now 17 years old, I don't think there's a lot you can do now to affect his character and development. It may be more important to figure out a set of family rules to prevent him from taking advantage of the family.

If it's any comfort, according to a friend of mine who is a clinical psychologist who has national recognition, many psychopaths "burn out" in their middle twenties. It isn't that they develop a conscience, it's just that they get so tired of being in constant trouble that they start to change their behaviour to avoid it. They don't have any internalized understanding of ethics or fair play but they're not stupid. For example, if a given psychopath doesn't enjoy going to jail, s/he stops doing things that lead straight to jail.

So one thing that helps is refusing to enable or protect the psychopath. Never do anything to prevent the psychopath from experiencing the full consequences of their actions. It won't help the psychopath develop the "inner compass" or a true sense of empathy but it may just help train them to avoid doing things that get them in trouble. <<

That is a profoundly helpful peice of information. One I am going to think about intently. I am dealing with a particular situation with one son that I need to make a decesion on.

Thank you again Eithne for sharing in such straight forward and intelligent information.

I'm very appreciative.
Finished

Eithne,

What I have heard is that psychopath burn out in their forties. WOuld that be right? of course, they don't change, but they become more subtle. I believe that by that time they sometimes realize that they are not like others. So it that sense, they may try to dissimulate they abnomality.

Finished wrote: "My two youngest sons have also exhibited P behavior. Husband and father is P#1 in my life. They all show similiar characteristics. P#1 was an alcholic and I thought that was what the behavior was all about. The two younger sons also drink and drug and have been in trouble with the law. (Possession, DUI'S). But the lying, stealing, cheating, manipulating their way in and out of situations, I am beginning to wonder if they are P's rather that substance abusers. The behavior is sooooo similiar and the characteristics."

Hmmmmm. As I said before, I would be very hesitant to try diagnosing someone as psychopathic or narcissistic on my own, simply because a good diagnose needs someone with some distance from the situation. Something to think about is that psychopathy is a very rare condition and there is not known to be a genetic link. Doesn't mean there may not be one, just that it hasn't been discovered yet.


This may be a difference that makes no difference for you in your life right now. So far as I am aware, the same basic principles that work for dealing with family members who are substance abusers are what is recommended for dealing with family members who are psychopaths.

I think the reason they work is because they focus on the one person you can control: yourself. They set up a framework that gives you inner strength and makes your boundaries clear. It finally gets down to the fact that you can't change anyone else so you have to become someone that can't be harmed by a loved one's bad behaviour.

And really, it all comes down to stuff that most of our mothers or grandmothers told us: never lie, not even for someone we love; don't help the people we love do bad things; nothing in life is free, don't expect to get something for nothing; an honest man can't be cheated; etc.

Hopefull wrote: "What I have heard is that psychopath burn out in their forties. WOuld that be right? of course, they don't change, but they become more subtle. I believe that by that time they sometimes realize that they are not like others. So it that sense, they may try to dissimulate they abnomality."

I think both my friend and you are probably right. My friend was talking about violent behaviour and crime. Stuff that puts people in jail for non-trivial lengths of time.

I think you're talking about the ability to con people, maintain longer relationships, etc.

My sense of Stepson is that he was aware he was different from others from a fairly early age. He simply assumes that his way is an advantage.

Eithne

>>I think the reason they work is because they focus on the one person you can control: yourself. They set up a framework that gives you inner strength and makes your boundaries clear. It finally gets down to the fact that you can't change anyone else so you have to become someone that can't be harmed by a loved one's bad behaviour.<<

I have been treating my relationship (for lack of better word) with P#2 as an addiction. In that I have been in a twelve step group almost everyday. And. . .yes. . .it has taken the focus off the "other" and put it on me. I believe this is the first time I have REALLY been in enough pain to take that first step in admitting I'm powerless over people, places and things. Especially people. In that I feel freer than I have in years and more willing to look at my own "character defects". I'm now focusing on myself the parts I've played and why. In my pain I'm willing to be honest with myself and willing to listen to others. . .accountabality.

>>This may be a difference that makes no difference for you in your life right now. So far as I am aware, the same basic principles that work for dealing with family members who are substance abusers are what is recommended for dealing with family members who are psychopaths.<<

Thank you for that. . .somehow it helps me feel more grounded. Like I am on the right path here. . .

Thank you Eithne. Very helpful.
finished

Eithne,

More I think of it, you may be right on violent not violent Ps. I remembered that the P I knew had history of delinquency, I guess burned out in the twenties and reinvented himself then and became a very well disguised sociopath and that phase seems to fade in the 40s.

Finished,

IT is a very wise understanding of yourself to treat the P#2 as an addiction. I admired that. I am sure you will get somehwere with that.

Oh thank you Hopeful,

I just posted to Betterway that last night I picked up the book I've been meaning to get for awhile. . .Betrayal Bonds. . .by Patrick Carnes. I recommend it Hopeful. I have just started and it already explains how we becomed addicted (used that word)to our betrayer. I am so eager to learn more. Little by little, we are gaining understanding. For me it has been like "when I'm ready" another part of the answer comes to me. I am very grateful these days. . .

Especially for the forum and my forum friends. . .bless you all. . .have a great P free day. :-)
finished

Finished,

I went to buy that book last night. I was disturbed by the truth of it all. As I said I have never been to therapy or anything similar. But it sounds as if I should be in one. I don't have money where can i find one?

Hopeful,

I had a clinical psychologist that cost me $90.00 per hour. When I had that last experience with P#2 I was so desperate I went to her twice. God bless her, she validated my experience and told me I had great instincts. Something I needed to hear as I wondered about my own sanity about it all. It was sooooo bizarre.

I have been unable to work ever since then and my insurance does not cover therapy. DVIS (Domestice Violence Intervention Sevices)offer a clinical psycholgists services based on what you can afford. When I first went they did an evaluation and then I joined the group. All the things I'm learning are how P's operate elthough they don't call them P's. We have had a group on betrayal bonds. The leader also recommended the book. Right now it is free to me. I also got in touch with the womens center (YWCA) and they have different womens groups. . .same thing. . .offered on a sliding scale on what you can afford based on income etc. Then I have been attending Alanon and Open AA meetings and that is free. (they pass a basket and usually people put in a dollar). Because of what happened I also contacted the rape center and got in a six week group with them. I was just thinking about this as I was posting. The P experience is an isolating experience built around isolation and "secrets". I believe the interaction and being with people has been part of the healing process for me. I've learned I am not alone. And then. . .I can't under estimate the support,validation, information and being able to post on this forum. Hopeful, when I stumbled in here (totally by "accident"). . .I finally had some understanding of what I had been dealing with.

It is as you said in another post. It is like the peeling back of an onion. Little by little, layer by layer, here a little, there a little and the peices of how and why we could have been vulnerable to such exploitation starts to become more clear.

Today, I feel I have a better understanding of "myself"! As I focus on me and my own issues. . .I am better able to even understand P and that behavior.

In many ways it all boils down to basic human needs not being met in childhood. I never realized that it would have such an effect. I'm more in touch with my own brokeness if you know what I mean. I see there are many areas in my own life that need healed.

Oh ((Hopeful)))I urge you to pursue all avenues of help that you can. Follow your "gut" feeling. If you wind up somewhere and you feel it is wierd or uncomfortable, pursue somewhere else. We will find the answers we are looking for but sometimes we just have to dig a little (and be willing to ask for help and support). We all need others, but the "right" others. :-)

Have a great day (((Hopeful)))
finished

Thanks Finished,
I don't feel I am desperate, as I think I have been through the worst. But I understand why I was so obessesed which not only me, it was actually the result of a dynamic. But to the eye of many, I may have been insane. But now I understand a lot more of trauma, and I understand what set me in that condition. I should have run from the one, there was since then, a lot of clues that I was going to hurt myself and I think that one has to asses the problem as any other day to day problem, we have to brainstorm and do the the list as they suggest in the book. I never believed in those thing before, but now, I want to brake free of those relationship, and I want to move on, but I have to do so correctly. Have a nic eday.

I'm a bit confused, not sure if my brother is a psychopath. He's been diagnosed as bi-polar & paranoid/schizophrenic, but that was many months ago. His therapist has also told him that he has no "empathy" and my brother has said time and time again that he doesn't have a conscience. He cannot hold a job (collects disability) and every "friend" he's ever had has turned into an enemy. According to my brother, he is always the victim. It's never his fault for anything that has happened to him. He drove into a parked car and to this day swears it was the parked cars fault!! He's been in and out of mental hospitals, been baker acted more than once or twice, has (he says) attempted suicide a few times and has been arrested, but has never done more than a night in jail. My parents always bailed him out, because they believed HIS story, always the victim. He has gotten revenge on former friends and admitted to burning down a house, throwing a "bomb" into a girls car, damaging a former employers property and has reported a friend to Social Security that someone was working a second job "off the books", someone who is handicapped and collecting SS. This person has asked my brother if he had anything to do with this, he toldhim that they would be the last people he'd want to have to deal with. I have just learned about these acts the other day, my mom told me about them. Who knows what else he has done. He's always saying that he's not stupid and plans things so he never gets caught.
Recently, me and my husband moved to the next state and my mother and brother followed. The first weekend here, my brother got me involved with an argument between him and my mom and somehow WE ended up in an argument. He threatened to burn down the house my husband and i were in the process of buying. Well, flashbacks of him threatening to burn our house over 30 years ago when we were both kids came to my mind and I cancelled the closing on the house!! Things just escalated from that night on, with him threatening to take away everything we had, saying he knew where we both worked and that we would never be safe and would always have to look over our shoulders for him. He sleeps during the day, and goes out at night. I couldn't see us starting a new life with him threatening like that, so we up and left the state!! Just ran!! In the meantime, my mom went ahead with buying a house and within two weeks of moving in, he started to threaten her life, as well as talk constantly about me and my husband and how he wants to kill us. Every day....he threatened every day!! He's punched holes in the wall, threatened to burn down her house, threatened to cut the phone line so she couldn't call for help. Was always asking for money, thought she "owed" him...wanted her to buy a pickup truck...it goes on and on. He would wake up mad she said...always looking for a fight. She tried to avoid him as much as she could, she'd go into her bedroom when he got up, but many times he would knock on her door and very sweetly say he wanted to tell her something, and as he talked he'd work himself into such a state that his face got red, his eyes would bulge and a vein would stick out from his forehead. He is just a very angry person. He was always talking about the past and is a very very angry person. You can see it in his face that he is just not right! My mom feared for her life and the police told her in order to have him arrested, she needs a tape of him threatening her, so as scared as she was to make the tape, she knew she had to. You see, getting a restraining order or just telling him to leave the house would not do any good, in fact it would escalate his anger. He just would not leave, physically would not leave, even said he wasn't go to leave that house. Having the police escort him out for one night, only to have him return the next day and do God knows what was not the answer either. My mom is 68 years old and doesn't drive. Well, as it turned out, the last day she was in the house with him, she was sitting with her back to him and he said he could just kill her right now...she was expecting a knife in the back or a thump on the head. After she felt he had left the room she got up and saw he was in the other room holding a knife. She went to her bedroom, packed and called a cab. Thank God he let her do that!! We (me and my mom) turned in a tape that clearly shows what he has been saying to her, and had him arrested. He is being held in jail WITHOUT bond!! My mom has put the house up for sale and we are leaving this state to join my husband in a couple of days! This has been a nightmare and surely not the way i wanted my brother life to go, but if was either him or us. He has told many people that he wants to kill us, we later found this out after contacting some of his friends back in our old state. In fact, a friend that has known our family since 1980, has said that he's been talking about "killing" for a long time now. This came as a shock to me. I had no idea..i've never been close to my brother, have never had any patience with him, but i also never thought he was so evil!! He has also said he feels the safest in a mental hospital, says he doesn't have to look over his shoulder there. I hope this is where he ends up, but he isn't stupid, knows how to work the system. He can be very convincing, appear very normal. In fact his "line" in this new town was that he is starting his own business and has started going to church (which he did, isn't that ironic). The couple of friends that he made here have already gotten fed up with him talking all the time about me and his mom and how he wants to kill us. I hope this hasn't bored anyone, but any comments or thoughts would greatly be appreciated. There are many little incidents i haven't gone into, but does he sound like a psychopath to any of you?

Hi kashmir21, welcome to the forum. You mentioned that your brother was bi-polar & paranoid/schizophrenic, does he take any kind of medication?

Di

Hi Diane,
I've been reading this board for the past 24 hours or so, and i've learned alot, but still am not sure what constitutes a psychopath.
Yes, my brother is on medication, although i'm not sure what kind. He's started in therapy about 4 years ago and has been on medication since then. He's been acting just fine, with the exception of getting himself in some trouble, but nothing like the past couple of months. My mom would never had even THOUGHT about this move if he was anything like this! Since the move, he said he stopped taking the medication, told his therapist he's taking it, but told my mom that he wasn't. She found the full bottle in the garbage. Says the medication makes him groggy. He likes the adrenaline rush he gets from being mad. Then the last couple weeks before my mom left the house, he seemed to be taking it again, but she wasn't sure if he was or not... obviously if he was it hasn't made a difference. He said he's even told his therapist he's going to do a "mercy killing"....this is what he told my mom he said. I can't believe a therapist would let him leave his office after having said that.

Hi kashmir21, the lack of empathy is a good thing to look for. Your brother may also not be telling you the truth about if he is taking his medication. Unfortunately the only way to deal with him if he is not on medication is to keep your distance, from my opinion.

Have you formed any other opinons from reading more the last few days?

Di

Is there in your state an involuntary hospitalization statute. If he is dangerous and threatening the family, a judge can order him hospitalized. This sound so bizarre that it sounds psychiatric rather than psychopathic, though I am no expert. Check on this since his behavior sounds unmanagable and DANGEROUS.

Algaringo

There's your answer. No medication. His behavior has now gone off the charts. He seems on the verge of psychosis. Has he actually hit someone in the house or actually burned down anything or are these stories he tells.

I think whether or not he is a psychopath, he certainly seems to have serious psychiatric problems that need immediate attention. Is your mom safe with him in the house? She may be too stunned to know what to do.

Irrespective it may be time to have him involuntarily hospitalized. They will at least get him back on meds. The problem with meds is that some do have side effects and it takes a long time to adjust the medication so the individual is comfortable. Some people with bipolar disorder do not like the calmness.

Algaringo

He says he's burned down a former friends house and my mom for a fact that it did burn....this was in the late 80's. This friend suspected it was my brother, but could never prove it. He also claims to have thrown a bomb in a girls car (he was arrested last year for explaining how to make a bomb to his therapist..he wanted to bomb a mosque, so his therapist reported it. The FBI searched his apartment and found nothing, the charges were dropped in the end. Very recently he reported a current friend to Social Security...apparenty this friend had a second job off the books and collected disability from SS. He ended up being fired from the second job...and asked my brother if he had anything to do with it. My brother denied it, but told my mom that he did report him. Revenge is what he wants. He brags that he has done these things and never gets caught...says he plans them well!! Who knows....but we didn't stick around to find out!!
He hasn't hit anyone in the house, just the walls, which resulted in holes. My mom has left the house, we all left the state actually. We ended up having him arrested. He is in jail right now, with no bond. She taped some of their coversations and he was recorded on tape that he was "going to shove my fist so far down your f***ing throat"...this is what he said to my 68 year old mother. He was also recorded saying how he was going to kill me, my husband and then her...how he was going to stab the bodies so badly they wouldn't be able to be identified.
Hopefully he will be evaluated in jail and they will see that he needs help. He knows he is sick, in fact that is his free ticket out of trouble, or so he thinks! He has said this over and over again to a few people he has been hanging with the past couple of months. He has a letter from the attorney that got him off the bomb threat last year, saying he has severe mental problems and to call him if needed. This attorney even told my brother that this is NOT his meal ticket, this is only if he needs it for some self defense matter, or something like that.
In any case, thank you so much for your input. Please reply with any other opinions or questions. I have my computer back now, so i will be checking here daily.

Can you read my post called "Is my daughter a P?" No one has replied and I am confused about what has happened in my family. Would appreciate your imput.

Questions about psychopaths:

1) Why do they have trouble holding on to jobs. Do they have problems with focusing on tasks? It would seem there are a number of occupations they should do well at. Like sales. Why can't they do it.

2) Why this revolving door relationship pattern. Why do they leave and come back?

3) Why are their emotions chaotic yet facade very mellow and self possessed.

4) Why do they hate us their mark. I don't get the hostility towards someone who usually helps them with money or whatever. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to be nice and milk us ever more? Why are they such sadists?

Maybe you can shed soem light.

Hi

I think the answer is that there is no answer - they do whatever they need to inorder to get thier kicks - control and omination - the pwere of lies and building their own reality. Yet they all have an anchor - usually at a distance so they can crawl back when they have been found out. But they can't stay - they recharge on the support from the anchor then run when they spot the next victim/scam etc.....

Thats my view .. any comments...

Best of luck

recovery

1) they can't hold a job because they are superficial, they can't go deep and develop. they 'll have great idea but that is about it and they can't have any good relationship with anyone, one day or the another they will enervate their collegue, and final who wants to work with them. the truth is that there is many, more than many that holds jobs, and manage to hide their true colors for too long.