My son is now 22 years old, and will be released from prison in 2005. He was taken from our home by several police officers with guns drawn when he was seventeen, after four years of hell and gremlin-like behavior. This son was loving, good, well-behaved and my favorite up until he hit thirteen-years-old, divested himself of all friends practically overnight, ran away, robbed us blind and was totally immune to any attempts at love, pleadings threats, reasoning. In other words, he turned out like the majority of my family, whom I had left back in California many years ago. When a child morphs into a primary psychopath, it is just as if the child died. My little guy is gone, and he is never, ever coming back. I know my family history well it is rife with fratricide, patricide, myriad double-dealings and virtually everyone had their hand in some criminal enterprise, no matter how educated. All attractive and possessed of a deadly charm. My major in college is Psych, with an emphasis in forensic, but although it is fascinating stuff, particulary the research with glucose uptake into the frontal lobes and brain scans, as well as implicit association tests, the more one reads and researches, the less hope there is.

Hi Cordelia,
I agree with you when you say the more you research the less hope there is. My son is 27 and has been diagnosed with having a severe personality disorder, more than likely that disorder being a psychopath. His bad behaviour started around 4 years old and has gotten progressively worse. To make the situation even worse the Doctor my son saw felt that he was also a schizophrenic (spelling) I feel at a total loss, I always hoped that someone, someday would be able to diagnose what was wrong with Marc, give him a prescription that would help him behave in a more "normal" fashion. To be told that nothing I do or anyone else does will help him has been worse than anyone can imagine. I'm sure it is worse than a death, a death is, most of the time, closure. This will never go away and I don't know how to accept that diagnosis.

Marc has never seemed to have the capacity to bond with people, even as a little boy he didn't like being hugged or kissed, there were always temper tandrums, hostility, and severe aggressiveness to other children. He has been in jail at least 12-15 times since he was 13 years old. He has stolen from both his sisters and now neither one of them want anything to do with him. They absolutely refuse to have anything at all to do with him.

He just caused between vandalism and theft approximately 6 thousand dollars loss to me. Because he is a family member insurance doesn't cover anything.Nothing that I am aware of happened to set him off except that he had shaved and left his beard yukkies all over the bathroom sink and I asked him to clean it up.

Marc has now disappeared into the streets of Vancouver as he has done for the last 8-10 years. He will only call when it gets cold and he wants food and a home. I want the strength to be able to say no, I can't take your behavior anymore - stay away. If there is no hope, shouldn't families just write these people off. And if yes, how does a parent come to terms with doing that?

Larins, you have my deepest sympathy. You are right, had our child died, we could cry and look at photos and let grief take it's natural course. You know what I day-dreamed once? Like a short story of sorts, that starts at the end of the story and works backwards. A mother is visiting her son's grave at dusk, and talking to him, remembering when he was a little guy and the things they used to do. But as the story unfolds, you read the boy growing up and becoming more and more a monster. Toward the very end of the story the reader realizes that the mother who visits the son's grave several times a week is not at the cemetery, she is at an unmarked grave. She was forced to kill him herself. This went through my mind during the time when my son was robbing, oh, I don't know how many homes per day, stealing guns and selling them to gangs. My 10-year-old son wouldn't let him in the house one day when we were shopping, and he fired shots at the house in a rage.

I'm so sorry about your situation. When my son gets out, I know nothing will change, he will get one more chance because I'm his mother and you must be able to tell yourself that you've left no stone unturned. But after that it is Restraining Order. Larins, I dread having to see him homeless, scruffy and on the streets. It sounds like your son has multiple diagnosies. That can only make it more frustrating. Sigh. You know what you have to do. Life presents people with wrenching choices sometimes, that's a fact. Your/my only other option is to go down with the ship.

Thank you for your sympathy, I think only another person who has a child who has been diagnosed with this mental illness or lack of conscience can understand how truly terrible it is. I am so glad I found this forum. I don't know anyone else who has had a p in their life. People that have known my son all our lives are so fed up with Marc and so tired of me taking him in because as you say how can you look at your own child, tired, cold and hungry - living on the streets. When he is homeless and the temperature goes way down I can barely cope with the thought of him out there. His psychiatrist asked me how many times I had to hit a dead end before I would give up. I sincerely hope that I can say no this time when he calls.

You have to think of your younger son before you take your older son back in. What if he hurts your younger son? What if he tries to influence him to do robberies, and believe me, he will. Marc tried desperately to drag his younger sister down with him. When she got to the point where she could no longer tolerate his behavior he turned on her like a viper and has done his utmost to destroy her. I believe if he could do her extreme harm he would. She has two children, he hates her little boy, and he has threatened to kill him. We live in fear that Marc will slip deeper and deeper into this hole he lives in and do harm to my grandson. Marc was my only son and I believe Marc perceives my grandson as a threat to him.

Have you accepted that your son is a p - because although I know it is the truth in my head, my heart keeps looking for a solution, a fix. I don't know how to cut all ties. I dream constantly about Marc as a young baby and a young boy. The dreams are very real and based on things that I had forgotten happened. Maybe it is my brain's way of healing, I have never dreamt like this until the last six weeks.

I sleep with a hammer in my bed table - what a thing for a mother to do!

Larins & Cordelia,

I'm sure I speak for all of the members on the forum when I say that we sympathize with you both. It must be an otherworldly nightmare to have a child that is a P. While we all have been involved with P's in one way or another and are dealing with our own hell, we only have a glimpse of the pain and anguish that you must feel.

After I figured out that I was involved with a P I struggled for some time trying to decide whether or not to discuss the situation with his mother. It was the most gut wrenching position that I have ever been in. How could I tell a mother that I believed that her son was a psychopath? Did she know all along and, if she did, choose not to tell me? Honestly,
I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep and had trouble concentrating. Reading the posts on this forum, surfing the internet for information and talking with my friends was the only thing that kept me going.
Eventually I did speak with my P's mother for several hours on the telephone. We met the following week and spent much of one day together. Long story short: she had known that something was terribly wrong with her son but couldn't put her finger on it. He had never been involved in petty crime and was never a trouble maker (as you have noted that your sons are) but he was constantly lying, never had long term relationships and expressed little, if any, emotions when it came to sympathy, empathy, love, passion, compassion, etc...
Sad but true, his mother told me that she never had a real hug from her son. It was difficult to finally spell it out to her. I tried my best to break it to her gently... providing all of the information and letting her come to her own conclusions. She became very defensive at first. However, I saw the look on her face when it finally dawned on her exactly what she was dealing with.
I guess I am writing this post because I still feel a degree of guilt for having been the one to break the news to his mother. But, then again, I was the first one in my P's life
(that was close to his family at least) to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and have a complete picture.
I have lost touch with my P's mother. This was her choice.
She pops into my thoughts often....very often. I try to send her loving, healing and supportive energy as I know she feels drained, constrained and manipulated when she is around her P son. In truth she is a beautiful, lovely, healing, spiritual force in her own right. I am sure that both of you are the same way. It's a shame that your sons can't truly benefit from that in a healthy way.
Please know that my prayers and loving thoughts are with you as well.

Rick

HI Rick, thanks for the kind words. It is a nightmare, although I'm told by both his psychiatrist and my family doctor that nothing I did caused this, I am overwhelmed with guilt. Did I not teach him right from wrong? Did I not give him enough love? The questions are endless, the dreams are relentless.

I have to concentrate on remembering that I have two beautiful daughters who show no signs of having anything at all wrong with them. One of them has children and she is a loving devoted mother so at least I only gave birth to one p.

As far as your feeling guilty for telling her, I guarantee she wouldn't believe it. After all, to believe THAT of your child, means you have given up all hope. There is no pill, no drug they can give someone that will give them a conscience. I was told that Marc could have therapy 24-7 and it would not make a dent. If someone other than a Doctor told me that about my son I would never ever have believed it. I wanted desperately to believe that someday someone would give him medication that would "just cure him". I did not want to believe that I could love someone as much as I loved him and that he felt absolutely nothing in return. I did not want to believe that my son was incapable of loving anyone besides himself. What is life if you don't love!

I have given up on my son. I am sure the next time he calls I will have the strength to say no more. His sisters and I are going to get together in July and formally say goodbye to him. I intend to put away all pictures and or memories of him. I will not let him tear me apart again. That I am sure of.

Larins,


"After all, to believe THAT of your child, means you have given up all hope."

Yes, actually his mother did say that....she would not give up hope. Still, my observations, comments & insights combined with the many years of her raising her son...situations that suddenly came together and made sense, etc.... all came together for her. We spoke on many occassions for several weeks, thereafter, and she even seemed to start to get comfortable with the terminology.


At one point months later I did receive a threatening call from my P. I knew from the content of our conversation that his mother had finally discussed the situation with him. Of course P's are masters of manipulation. I have no idea where she is now, what she is doing or what her frame of mind is.

Anyhow, I can't blame myself for having been the victim to whom it all finally all made sense. Each and every one of us on this forum is in the same boat. But yes, my heart does go out to the mothers and families that find themselves in your situation....having to cut ties for your own well being.

I will tell you, though, that a neighbor of mine recently confided in me that she had a daughter that was a P. Of course twenty years ago the treatment modalities were different than they are today....so the daughter had been institutionalized for a time, was extremely violent, aggressive, abusive and had even broken her mothers nose twice! When the daughter would visit the parents would sleep with their door locked. Flash forward.... the daughter is now approaching 40 with a family of her own. She has completely come around and appears to be making headway. They have wonderful conversations and are now, finally, becoming close. But like you Larins, my friend had to cut her daughter free when she was younger.

Thank you for responding to my post. Just knowing there are other people out there whose minds are filled with the same
thoughts, experiences and images is in a strange way comforting. Safety in numbers I guess.

Much love to you in this trying time.

Rick

rick wrote >>I'm sure I speak for all of the members on the forum when I say that we sympathize with you both. It must be an otherworldly nightmare to have a child that is a P. While we all have been involved with P's in one way or another and are dealing with our own hell, we only have a glimpse of the pain and anguish that you must feel.<<

Larins and Cordelia -
I totally agree with rickb1. I have been reading your posts for awhile and thinking about how hard it must be for you both. I am glad you are reaching out for answers.

The P. told me during the first few months I knew him that he has no contact with family as they don't like the lifestyle he has. That should have been a big "red flag" to me. What was I thinking? I was more caught up in the lovely world P. was building around me. The P. was kind of a rebellious bad boy (and he is not a kid, much older than your child) and was like a free spirit - didn't have a care in the world. Another "red flag".

Please continue to post. All of our experiences rather a friend, spouse or a parent of P. can be helpful to us all.

Love & support to you,
betterway

Larins, I do know what I have. I've grown up with a lot of family members like him, and that is not surprising, since unlike the socio-path, a psychopath is a genetic malady. The advice you received concerning treatment is right-on, treatment for the primary psychopath not only doesn't help, it makes them worse, (see Dr. Marnie Rice's studies). When he gets released, I will give him the one chance, with the FULL knowledge that it won't do any good, for myself, not for him. Then it is Restraining Order time. I read an old poem once and memorized it.
Evil for good, relentless to bestow
is all the gratitude the unworthy know.
Mercy to such ones, should be with
caution shown
In saving a villian's life, you risk
your own
Truer words were never spoken, eh?

Hi Cordelia, welcome to the forum, you have a very sad story. I looked up your Dr. Marnie Rice and found some of her presentations.

Dr. Rice's presentations