Hi sylvie

Thanks for that. I have not seen it for a long time and it is so helpful for me at the moment. I am not a solitary person naturally but perhaps we need spells of it sometimes to build ourselves up as our true selves and not what others expect us to be. You sound very strong.

Mati,

You're welcome. I didn't used to be solitary at all either, quite the contrary. I think you're right though, that we need those pockets of time and space to ourselves.

I was surprised that you think I sound strong. I guess it depends on the context. My confidence and nerves are shot when it comes to business and I struggle with it daily. Having said that, I tell myself I must be fairly strong since I am still standing after dealing with Ps on three fronts. I'm not imagining it or overreacting either - wish I was - I know they are Ps for sure. Once you have met one, they're easy to spot but not always easy to avoid.

Regards

Sylvie

Hi sylvie

When you say they are easy to spot, are you depending on intuition or are there certain signs youi look for? I really hope to avoid getting involved with one again or worse, watch as my children get involved with one.

One thing that stands out with my husband is his eyes, which are very shifty and have that flatness which I have heard is common. One interesting thing is that he took up water colour painting and his work had a certain quality about it not easy to describe. It was sort of bleak and flat.

Hi Mati,

It's been a while and I try and put it out of my memory but what do I look for as a p identification factor

1) as you said the "eyes"

2) the grandiose stories of exploits without any proof

3) lying for self gain and to build up self importance

4) running down of all other people - rarely or never praising anyone else

5) lack of any real person there - difficult to describe but since they don't have any real deep emotions they cannot hold a conversation about deep feelings - just a shallow person which is what I mean by the expression "lack of any real person there"


Has anyone else got any other outward signs to add to the list. I am sure that I have missed some

Mark

Hi Mati,

I think more outward signs and probably some intuition. I should be more careful about saying that they are easy to spot because I don't think every one of them displays all the same traits. I agree with the shifty eyes even though I believe I've encountered a couple who don't seem to do that. The most common traits seem to be:

- pathological lying, seem to enjoy deceiving and gain sense of superiority from it
- lack of conscience
- lack of empathy and shallow affect (don't seem to show much emotion when you would expect it like when their missing wife is found murdered!)
- sexual promiscuity
- lack of nervousness/fear, poor impulse control (I noticed this a lot in the ones I've encountered which is why they seem to engage in fraud and other lawbreaking easily)
- seem to put others down a lot, sneering
- superficially charming, highly manipulative
- long history of antisocial behaviour and behavioural problems (delinquency, fights etc. )often starting in childhood

I noticed my ex sometimes used to look angry and antisocial in pictures even at times when he didn't seem to be beforehand. I thought it was interesting that you said your husband took up watercolor painting because that's not a sensibility I would normally expect in a P. My ex was VERY affectionate and it didn't seem feigned to me or others. Odd.

Regards

Sylvie

Hi Mark

"4) running down of all other people - rarely or never praising anyone else"

Yes, I have never heard this one but it is true concerning my p. Also included are groups of people especially Christians as far as my husband is concerned. Any mention of a criticism of him from someone second-hand brings about the most venemous hatred, which is immediate rather than my own reaction which I assume is normal but I have not asked others about this. The first thing I do is to immediately think 'is it true?'

I would also add the use of charm and flattery until it is clear that the person targeted is not being influenced, then it is the blank out. That is something you have to observe though rather then something to spot early on.


I hope that I can rely on my intuition in future but because I did not heed it in the past I do not have confidence in myself that I will listen in future. I do however take pains to take notice of that nagging feeling that I have so often ignored to my great regret in my matters.

Hi sylvie

Interesting about the photos. Mine did not ever look angry on photos. He seemed to be much more in control of himself to do that and even manipulated his image there and put on a sort of apologetic, anxious look with a sort of nervous smile or more often a blank look that I never saw anywhere else. Whatever it was it was so false (now looking back)Because he wanted to be the victim, he seemed to me to want to record on photographs that he was the 'henpecked husband'. I have sen this same expression in photos of Harold Shipman, and someone else who I thought was a p. I am amazed thinking back now at how contriolled he was in his image to gave to others but at the same time very impulsive in reacting to unexpected things, when the aggression would break out. It showed I think the falseness and acting of his usual presentation, and the effort of that, when the unexpected arose, revealed the tension he was operating under. Does that sound strage or usual? Sometimes I think I am becing paranoid, although it has only been 6 months since I left (22 year marriage).

The impulsiveness concerned other things as well though not just in reactions. It also concerned decisions.

Yers my p acted affectionately but it was without feeling.

Hi Mati

You said "It showed I think the falseness and acting of his usual presentation, and the effort of that, when the unexpected arose, revealed the tension he was operating under. Does that sound strage or usual?"

Usual. I noticed that too very early on - the viciousness of a sudden verbal attack stunned me because it was such a contradication from the charming person he made himself out to be at other times, in fact, just a few minutes before the outburst. It bothered me enough that I decided I wanted out of the relationship (6 months at that time) but what I wasn't prepared for was the hysteria and sob stories that I encountered when I tried to break things off. P was VERY needy. Problem is a lot of women don't know the signs of a sociopath and accordingly are ill-equipped to deal with it since they just don't realize what they are up against.

Like Shipman? Any comparison to him is chilling even if it just demeanor. It's really manipulative that your ex portrayed himself that way. The guy I went out with told people I was controlling and mistreated him (bunch of hooey) - I guess they all sing from the same songsheet. My response was that I must not have treated him badly enough since he was still calling.

I'm glad that you are out of the situation and I hope you don't spend too much time chastizing yourself which is easy to do especially since it's so recent. I wish there were overt physical attributes (horns and a tail perhaps) to warn us off but too bad it doesn't work that way. The P I went out with was affectionate with feeling - that played a big part in keeping me off balance.

Regards

Sylvie

Hi sylvie

Yes it is chilling to compare him to Shipman, but when the case was in the papers, there was a photograph of him with that expression and I remembered how much it was like an old photograph of my husband so I cut them both so that I could see only the heads and I could not believe the similarity when I held them together. The other time was when the Soham, England murders were in the papers, did you read about it? Ian Huntley he is called and that same expression again. It's like 'I'm carrying all of the burdens of the world on my shoulders'. Yet at the same time my p was totally irresposible about everything.

Yes I have had plenty of hysteria and sob stories. And lately there have been plenty of tears and 'I miss you's' I am still in contact due to my two young adult sons still being there, having the wool pulled over there eyes totally and won't have a word said against their father who, and I will bet on it, will be talking about suicide to keep them controlled and confused. He relays to them our conversations, twisted of course to make me to be the bad one.

They cannot understand me breaking contact with their father and I fear that they will break contact with me if I do and then they will have no contact at all with any family and I want to be there to support them when the light goes on if it ever does (does anyone know the likelihood of this?)

I am coping but when I am in contact I notice I start doubting whether he is p because he is putting the charm on since I found out the amount of debt he had got into secretly, and since I obtained the bank statements he had tried to conceal from me, just in time before the joint account was closed. He had been spending all of my disability benefits and the rest of the joint money. He is afraid of who I will tell I think, mainly his family who he has no or little contact with. I have not told them yet what has been happening since I fled my home to go to a womans' refuge.

Yes a pity they do not have horns and tail.

Thanks for that remark about it not being so bad for him. I will use that one.

I think MarkG describes (above) Narcissistic-Psychopath traits, whilst Sylvie25 describes Antisocial-Psychopath traits.

I think the key to avoiding getting suckered in to another abusive relationship, is in understanding where your weaknesses are, and doing something to change that/those predeliction(s) that rendered you vulnerable to abuse in the first place.

For me, I'm attracted to selfish people, as I find attention threatening. Ps and most abusive types only pay enough attention to you to extract whatever it is they are after, usually some form of narcissistic supply or resources; monetary or otherwise, the rest of the time they are thoroughly selfish.

My P thinks the emotionally & psychologically healthy person's need for attention is "high maintenance", so when he dates people who eventually stop being self-less, and assert their healthy need for a normal level of attention, he devalues them and idealises self-less me again.

My solution is to get used to attention, and to require a normal level of attention from prospective partners, in other words, be less self-less.

I am now also very wary of being idealised by anyone... if anyone builds me up, its inevitable that when I don't live up to their projection of me, they will feel cheated and devalue me. So now I am very skeptical of charm and flattery.

Also I now listen out for the names that people address me by. If anyone calls me by a name which is different to that which I wish to be called, I now deliberate whether they are relating to me or are projecting a different identity onto me. That applies to contractions of my name & to "terms of endearment". Eg. doll, babe, angel, etc (ask yourself, are you being treated like a doll, babe or an angel, and what that implies).

The last thing I have realised is to ask someone what they want out of the prospective relationship early on.

I asked after 5 years with my P and was told: "respect and pleasant company". Which makes sense why it took so long to unravel, I am respectful and pleasant company, but I also displayed emotional distress and anger directly; I complain and cry if I am upset, and show direct anger /am not affraid to lose my temper with people if they are abusive towards me, which caused P to devalue me (since he's scared of losing his temper and of his own emotions).

It took me another 12 months to realise that respect and pleasant company (i.e. attention) were narcisstic supplies, and his devaluation of me was his attempt to control these quality and pureness of these supplies, in other words the manifestation of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Stepford Wives is good analagy as to how P was treating me.

I would be interested to hear of lessons others have learnt about themselves through their interactions with Ps.
KT

**I have edited this post, Di