Many of us have posted concerning the cycles that we experience in dealing/having dealt with a P in our lives.
Confusion, depression, guilt, adulation, clarity. I sometimes find myself cycling in another direction...revenge. I think about creating
a situation or setting something up in my P's life to get back in some way. Mostly it involves hitting at a place that will really have some impact (if that is even possible) but always, always in a manner that could not be connected directly to me. I'm curious if anyone else finds themselves fantasizing in this way as well and if they would care to share what the payback might involve. Of course, in dealing with a P a setback really isn't that at all...for too long at least. A true P would just pick himself/herself up and move on to the next situation. In that way they truly are like the characters in the Terminator movies.

>>A true P would just pick himself/herself up and move on to the next situation. In that way they truly are like the characters in the Terminator movies<<

You know Rick. . .there were many times I thought after that last time with P that if I had died on the way home I could have seen his reaction. Not sadness or grief but more like "oh well. . . too bad". . .and his life would have gone on as normal. I don't know if you have followed my story but I barely made it home that night with my life. I was actually fighting to stay in my head. I still believe I was drugged and many of the people who have counseled me believe that as well. How he put me out on the road and let me find my way out of the woods on a back,lonely road only can be ascribed to P personality. He didn't even call for over a week to see if I made it home okay. I thought for sure I would die that night. I believe it is a miracle that I didn't. I was a hysterical basket case and the following morning it was like I was fighting to get back in my head.

I say all that to say this. . .I don't think he cared one whit. I think life would have gone on as normal for him. . .like "no big deal". . .he would probably have rationalized it was my fault.

Terminator style. . .yes! I couldn't have said it better!

Thanks Rick.
finished

Finished & Rick:

i want to say i have felt exactly where u r today Rick...many many times. I have even planned out situations that (with alot of work) would seriously get P in trouble. Although i was instrumental in his loss of work because of the sneaky ways in which he was contacting, staying close to me, he didtn't know).......i have done nothing else. every now and then, still, i get the HUGE urge and the spinning/planning happens again.

i am NOT in a spin currently. i see revenge as a waste of my time AND the potential outcome towards ME may be diasterious. so in this mind set right now, i would caution u to use your head and not your emotions---for the betterment/safety of YOU>.....

i likely will spin that way again...but i am finding it happening less and less.

let me say this though....if MORE antics keep happening to me I WILL DO SOMETHING..to make it known that i am still being harassed and i will not keep taking 'comebacks' when i have said 'go away' and he still persists.

so what am i saying?......be very very careful about these 'get back' spin cycles.

there are 'safe' ways to do little things but i am truly afraid to mention it here.....

be careful..be smart..stay safe.


Finished:

when i hear what happened to you AGAIN...(i have read it before)..it makes me crazy!!!.....you are so lucky...and what happened is just too much. but now we know better.

you take care too please.

Rick:

its weird that i just read your posting as i was fininshing a phonecall with my mother. although i love her dearly, what happened again tonite during conservation pertains some indirectly to your question.

i have been tellingmom that i no longer want contact with my abusive brother in any manner. he has come back to live with her (he is 52!) because he is having a nervous breakdown(?)... well last year it was something else and on and on..suffice to say he's been a big loser all his life and has done alot to me and my family over the years.

about a year ago we had a huge fight and i began to see he had alot of the traits we speak of in this forum. but did u know that i really never 'got it' until i was well into dealing with ex P and fraud business P?...i mean..i have known my brother obviously for a long time, although we do not live in close proximity. i am 800 miles from my extended family. so i talk alot to mom as she has been widowed etc. and i just plain love and care for her. BUT...u see...she catered to these type of men and their acting out all her life. my father, although not a P was abusive in his own way and always my brother.

to make a very,very long ugly story short, i decided to finally let go of said brother. i let go of a few other people after the P duo was understood by me. i decided it was house cleaningtime for once and all.

here's my point. tonite, i was angry at mom again for something my brother was smoozing her about and i got real upset...she started to cry etc..etc..i got madder because SHE ONCE AGAIN defended him! even though she knows what he is like...all he has done...she is still protecting him!

she was crying and telling me how mean i was and i should learn to 'forgive and forget'. she is very sweet and tenderhearted and has been hurt so many times all her life. she preached on about God etc., the peaceful life when one has forgiveness and lets go of the past.

do u see what i am getting at?

i was blamed for reacting to brother's wrong doing and she was, in a nutshell, telling me to let go of the past and take him back. (i did all this to the point of nausea so often before and got royally screwed over too many times being too NICE)

by the end of the conversation, i felt bad she was crying, as i know she wants her kids to all love one another etc.. but what she was really asking me to do was 'reward' his behavior. WRONGO>

i was raised with this thinking!..of course...the Christian forgive..forgive till you are left with nothing inside...but arent we peaceful now?

i am of course being sarcastic. it is to point out that 'look at how we are molded into mindsets that are illogical and keep us victims' even though we FEEL this is the correct thing to do and way to love.

i have changed my belief system about "love" and what is truly means to me. it has taken a long time to get there.

i cannot forgive and let go of my brother's many wrong violent/abusive doings.

i can only forgive the situation and let it go, now wiser.

he will never change. he doesn't feel he is ever wrong, no compromise.

i have to change. i did.

sorry mom...but because u are elderly i will now keep more to myself so i dont hurt u, and i cant change your beliefs and have no right to. i was trying to 'rescue you also'.

can't do this if no one is listening/willing.

so yes...i learned to be a rescuer, a giver to the nth degree. i still am, but now i am way discerning to "whom".

something has come to mind since i experienced the phonecall from om tonite and commenting on Rick's post.

i was very angry when i was talking to my mother regarding 'brother'. its for sure NOT the first time i have felt this. to be honest, i felt enraged. i felt unheard, unvalidated, my needs unmet totally...just as it was typically growing up years ago.

i was watching my behavior somewhere in the midst of my great anger. i saw myself feeling hopeless again, childlike acting out. screaming inside me was "u are not even hearing anything i am saying ...AGAIN!!!...hello.....
I HAVE FEELINGS TOO!.

i felt myself spinning with overwhelming emotion, the past, the present, the likely negative future of this part of myself and my family's relationship. all these years and not alot has changed, except me!

i felt abandoned, useless...etc....

i felt (for that emoting time) like just giving up, why bother, they never listen, i have no voice there...i never did.

THEN..and this is my point in this posting, i felt briefly "enititled" to be difficult and angrier because i flet i was doing the "rigth thing" and no one cared. i went into big self righteousness listing all the wonderful things i do as a daughter that others wouldnt and how much i have tried to be a good sister etc. the thoughts spun faster and more angry and more like i was "entitled" to HAVE and SPOUT my feelings.

then i wondered as i caught my insanity spiraling, "is this what 'made to be-P's feel like, but worse in their beginnings"? are these the emotions and patterns some 'made P's' experience over and over until their brain/heart/emotions give up and shut down from abuse and abandonment.

i sat later as i calmed myself and began to try to put myself in this mode more so so 'see' if i could experience more of what a beginning P would rationalize as "entitlement" to his feelings and subsequent later behavior. could it work this way? and mine wass temoroary , but i felt horrible injustice like i always did as a kid. i though, have not become even close to the "P checklist", thankgod. if anything i am just TOO outspoken about what i feel and care about.

if this is how they begin, it is no wonder. yes why couldnt one just shut down after much abuse and give up only to serve slef without hope or care for anyone ever again. where would the incentive be?

have others felt what i say here?

Finished,

Yes, I have read your postings and remember the trauma that you experienced. Your P has to be one of the more callous that I have read about...just short of a serial killer in my opinion. It's amazing that you made it through.

I do agree with you....P's only react to misfortune and things not going their way in the short term. Since they have no emotional memory such experiences do not stay with them....good or bad.

Rick

I've had the revenge fantasy many a time, but when my head clears I realize it would probably connect back to me. I also realize the fantasies are just more of a waste of my positive energy and that he is "winning" when I'm focusing on him. So I try to focus on doing something productive instead.

The sweetest revenge is "no contact". It's the only way to neutralize their power.

>>P's only react to misfortune and things not going their way in the short term. Since they have no emotional memory such experiences do not stay with them....good or bad.<<

That is a VERY good point to remember. Many times I would bring up an old unresolved issue only to be accused of "holding on to the past". Not being able to get over it. It was like all the pain I suffered was an insignificant issue and my feelings trite. "Get over it" was a favorite saying and you can't live in the past. But so many past unresolved issues made any reconcilation virtually impossible.

Very good point!

Thank you especially for that "emotional memory" insight. I never had thought of it that way before. Now that you say that, I can see how true it is.

Hope all is going well for you Rick,
finished

>when i hear what happened to you AGAIN...(i have read it before)..it makes me crazy!!!.....you are so lucky...and what happened is just too much. but now we know better.

you take care too please.<<

Dusty!

How sweet you are. Thank you for your validation and support. I agree. . .we are wiser now. I've been so grateful for the forum. I have and continue to learn SOOOOO much. I feel I've made some wonderful friends here. You all mean so much to me.

I so appreciated your comments and concern. Thank you so much.

(((hugs)))
finished


>

Hi Dusty,

>>to make a very,very long ugly story short, i decided to finally let go of said brother. i let go of a few other people after the P duo was understood by me. i decided it was house cleaning time for once and all.

here's my point. tonite, i was angry at mom again for something my brother was smoozing her about and i got real upset...she started to cry etc..etc..i got madder because SHE ONCE AGAIN defended him! even though she knows what he is like...all he has done...she is still protecting him!

she was crying and telling me how mean i was and i should learn to 'forgive and forget'. she is very sweet and tenderhearted and has been hurt so many times all her life. she preached on about God etc., the peaceful life when one has forgiveness and lets go of the past.

do u see what i am getting at?

i was blamed for reacting to brother's wrong doing and she was, in a nutshell, telling me to let go of the past and take him back. (i did all this to the point of nausea so often before and got royally screwed over too many times being too NICE) <<

I would just like to comment on this.

It sounds like your mom and brother are in a very codependant relationship. If your mom is elderly, she probably has never learned about "tough love" and sounds like she is confused about Christian forgiveness (which does not mean lay down a be a doormat).

The reality is that you cannot change your mom (or brother). Obviously brother is a user and abuser (from what you said) and mom has a history of being abused and has been brainwashed that she is supposed to "forgive and forget" EVERYTHING!! And Dusty, she has been brainwashed if that is her core belief.

Speaking from my own experience, I also was carefully trained to do just what your mom is doing. I was also taught it was my "Christian' duty to stay with a man who abused me in every way (P#1). It took this last episode with P#2 to break through the denial and REALLY begin to look for some answers.

Finding this forum was answer #1. Betrayed encouraged me to go to DVIS and get help, I went to the rape center. . .I've posted all the places I've gone for help. As I go, I learn. The most important thing I learned was I don't HAVE to accept this behavior (from anyone) AND I DID NOTHING TO PROVOKE IT. But in many ways I was like your mom. I had been "taught" to believe something else. I was told I was responsible for making others happy. That was my job. I was not ever supposed to say no either. I have to REALLY WORK to change those old thought patterns. They are so ingrained I have to make a conscience effort to do so.

The Verbally Abusive Relationship addresses this soooo well. If you haven't read it, it may help understand where your mom is coming from. It won't help her, but it will help you.

You dont have to have contact with bro unless you want to. I can totally understand how you feel. I know your heart aches to see your mom being used by him. I believe as you keep reading and posting, you will begin to know exactly what you need to do in regards to bro.

So glad you are here and we have each other to bounce this stuff of of.

love
finished

Dusty!!!

>>have others felt what i say here? <<

Uhh. . . . .yeah!

LOL

(keep venting)
xxxooo
finished

:

All of us, including your mom, has their breaking point. No matter what, when it comes to being taken advantage of and abused we all hit that wall and say "no more." For some of us that has been accompanied by the revelation that we have been in a relationship with a psychopath...but it is no different from dealing with addictive personalities and abusers.
It takes a strong personality to say "no." And, in my opinion at least, it speaks to a high level of self esteem
and self worth.

Rick

Yes, the emotional memory hit home for me during the last of only two telephone calls that I had with my P since the breakup and the light-bulb moment. My P said to me "you know
you're a great guy and I had a good time...so just get on with your life." That was when it hit me.... absolutely no emotional memory whatsoever. Now I'm not one to sit in a corner thinking "we did this and we did that" etc.... But a relationship leaves an imprint on your senses, your soul and your being. I guess that's what we refer to as emotion. It is something indescribable that speaks to the totality of the experience...the essence. This is why the memory of a P is like a ghost for me. It truly is haunting.

Rick

Finished:

I thank u for reading and replying and supporting regarding this mom/brother session i had. do u know that that night and all the next day i felt so 'bad' about my anger towards mom and her situation she has chosen????(i love her so deeply). i spun so badly, questioning whether i was indeed 'wrong' as she had 'accused me' of being mean and cold-hearted that conversation and the direction i have chosen with "brother". then tonite i wrote and sent a short note saying i would stop interferring with her choices. i really mean this.it is tearing me up and for what?...i cant stop her or him. i also said i loved her and sent her a small cheque to treat herself as she has so very little to live on.

AND THEN...yip...i started to cycle about ex P and felt so bad for all the mean things i have said to him regarding what he did to me and to keep him away etc. it got to the point where i had to call my close friend who has supported me through all this P nitemere to get a 'reality check'. do u know i spun so badly with past messages i had been taught as a child etc. that for a very very short time i ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT EMAILING P AND SAYING I WAS SORRY FOR SAYING MEAN THINGS.?????

YIP.

this is why my close friend tells me i am not totally "done" yet. he says that those 'little vulnerabilites" could wind up get me in a dangerous place again, even if short time before i woke up again. i think friend is correct...although i have diagreed many times saying i was strong enough to never be caught off guard again. the mind is a funny place to be in sometimes. we dont always
know' for sure exactly how we will react when the 'time' comes...especially to something that was once so so important to me.

LOOK AT HOW OUR PAST CONDITIONING CLINGS TO US....NO MATTER WHAT THE INTELLECT SAYS AND KNOWS...THE EMOTION AND HEART WILL HAVE THEIR WAY.

pretty scary...and all becuase i was trying to help my mother.

i am fine now.

i want to say also that TO ALL OF U that write in to this forum, i am in awe of your strength, resilence, postive faith and intelligence in your own unique ways in which u communicate your thoughts and feelings. its not always easy to get a point across on a 2-D medium like a computer, yet look at the success we are having on this forum.

bravo.!!

i highly recommend reading this book. it goes inside the head of an abuser to see 'why' men NEED power and what kind of man can or cannot be helped. it explained alot more to me regarding abuse, whether it be P or close to a P...same garbage.

DITCH THAT JERK by Pamela Jayne M.A.

(just copy and paste the 'link' here and u can read the table of contents, and some pages from the book. i think u will all like it.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897932838/ref=lib_rd_ss_TBCV/102-9786021-3543312?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=16#reader-link

**edited to make link clickable, Di

Hi finished,

>>Many times I would bring up an old unresolved issue only to be accused of "holding on to the past". Not being able to get over it. It was like all the pain I suffered was an insignificant issue and my feelings trite. "Get over it" was a favorite saying and you can't live in the past. But so many past unresolved issues made any reconcilation virtually impossible. >>

I so identify with what you said. The P. also use to tell me to "grow up". Projection, uhhh?

Have a great day!
betterway

dusty,
I really like what you posted - very thought provoking.
I printed if off so I can think about it. You expressed some things I often have felt. I read your post when you first posted and have been thinking about it alot. I understand the cycle of feeling entitled to all of our anger after experiencing so much pain. It was pretty scary when I first started learning about P's. I could see some P. behaviors about me. But I also know that I am not a P after more studying. My spirit was broken, my heart stomped on, and I was at my very bottom. I was very hurt and angry, etc. I took one of the P tests found on the internet and completed it 2 ways. One time with how I was before meeting P. and 2nd time how I felt right after getting out of P. situation. It was an eye opener to see how the P. had brought out the worst of me. I think some of the P. traits had rubbed off on me during the whole P. experience. I am lucky to have gotten out. My counselor and I work on the fact that I tend to generalize too much and because of all the pain I have experienced I cycle through times where I see the world negatively. Then I find this forum, a great counselor, and sometimes perfect strangers acting in a caring, considerate way and I am reminded that not all people are bad. And when I think about how I am kind and considerate and have true feelings then I think well if I'm not pure evil then there has got to be other good people.

I think after the major betrayal of knowing a P. we are entitled to alot of the pain and anger we feel. I guess the real issue is how long we stay stuck. I feel so lucky to have found all of you on this forum to help get me unstuck. You guys are truly the "special" people I know.

betterway

>>AND THEN...yip...i started to cycle about ex P and felt so bad for all the mean things i have said to him regarding what he did to me and to keep him away etc. it got to the point where i had to call my close friend who has supported me through all this P nitemere to get a 'reality check'. do u know i spun so badly with past messages i had been taught as a child etc. that for a very very short time i ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT EMAILING P AND SAYING I WAS SORRY FOR SAYING MEAN THINGS.?????

Hi Dusty!

I know I've told you that a member here, Betrayed, encouraged me to go the DVIS. That was a major hard thing for me to do but I did and contine to go.

One of the things that they teach us is this and learning this is helping me deal with the feelings of guilt. They teach us if there was never any good times with the abuser it would be easy to leave. Unfortunately, they (abuser or P's) mix in the "love" and "caring" and since they are not alway evil, it leaves us insecure, unbalanced and unsure. I am beginning to understand . . . no matter what I do or did, it would NOT HAVE CHANGED ANYTHING!!!!!!! An abuser is an abuser (or P) because THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE.

Now I got to tell you the truth. That is JUST NOW beginning to become a reality. For the first time (in my life) I am not picking myself to peices for not being "enough". I'm starting to believe I'm just fine the way I am. No matter how I twist myself into knots to live up to P's expectations or ideal (idealization)of me, I just can't do it. Nor if I did. . .would it make any difference.

I hear so many women (self included) that say "if I would have only done this or only done that"....

Our facilitator emphasizes that it has nothing to do with US. They abuse because of THEMSELVES. It is NOT OUR FAULT. EVER! She also brings out that living with abuse, we are constantly in a state of fight or flight mode. The body is constantly on edge and on eggshells. We are already trying to do everything right but no matter what, it cannot be done. They will find a way to do their stuff. No person in the world could do it right all the time even in the best relationships. Also, interestingly enough, all the assertive communication skills or just regular communication skills DO NOT WORK WITH ABUSERS (or P's). They are not normal or healthy and cannot be dealt with in a normal way. Whatever we say is twisted and distorted by them.

Their advice. . .get out as quickly as you can. They rarely, if ever change. Now that's with abusers. Amplify that times 1000 with a P.

>>LOOK AT HOW OUR PAST CONDITIONING CLINGS TO US....NO MATTER WHAT THE INTELLECT SAYS AND KNOWS...THE EMOTION AND HEART WILL HAVE THEIR WAY.<<

It will take time to unlearn stuff Dusty. As the head learns the heart will fall in line. Just be patient and keep working at it every day! We are making progress here. Sometimes in quantum leaps and sometimes with baby steps. However big or small it is all progress. Let time take time. It will happen.

((Hugs to you Dusty))
finished

Post deleted by dusty

Check this out:

The Dirty Dozen-Characteristics of a Psychopath

1. The ‘Jekyll/Hyde’ Psychopath comes on strong, sweeps us off our feet.
Appearing to be our 'soulmate', he falsely mirrors our values, interests, goals,
philosophies, tastes and habits. He mimics our ambition, integrity, honesty and
sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. This control freak wants us dependent on..................



http://www.geocities.com/andifekete/psycho.html

hi there. am quite new to the forum. when my p leaves on sunday for the uk i am having a 'gone' party with some friends. all of whom i have told about p. they are all outraged. and to my surprise not at all shocked. he behaves in such a secretive manner that some felt being a p explained his behaviour. i am going to talk about revenge and how to handle it. i don't like to think of it as revenge but an attempt to put an end to his activities. if someone is forewarned then they can make an intelligent decision. exposing him in certain circles there's nothing i can do about how others want to handle p.

i personally believe it's my responsibilty to speak out. of course i want to do it as discreetly as possible.

there has been enough hurt from p's it's time to fight back!

well, i'm strong at the moment i just hope not foolish!

i did expose p to a top tv person in london. i wanted to warn him. he's made arrangments to meet p for lunch next week. i wish i could be a fly on the wall. i am anxious over whether this man will take p's side and tell him i contacted him with the information. i go from feeling scared to so what i know the truth!

will let you know what if anything happens.

star

Hi Star, tread lightly. Your safety should be your top agenda. It could be dangerous messing around with speaking of the P if he should find out. They have no limit to what he could do. I would suggest coming here for support and it sounds like you are very lucky to have such a supportive group of friends.

Di

Star, please be very careful!

You may think that you can get the better of a P, but I tell you, compared to the manipulations of a P. you (generic) are a babe in the woods.

You may think that you know what you are doing, but you are toying with one hell of a mean devil when you toy with a psychopath.

If he finds out that you have unmasked him, all hell will break loose and you WILL be the loser.

Please be CAREFUL.

Nan

I rather second that.

One of my mental/range reactive training scenarios involves being on desert patrol and coming across a drug plane being loaded. The reaction plan at that point is to put rounds into the aircraft, trucks, burros/horses, disabling all their transportation, and getting the heck out of there. But the plan does not call for shooting the people. They would surely to the same to me, if I'm lucky, but I don't do it to them. Why not?

Because I operate within the rules of law, I am not them, I am lawful. Their doing me harm, however, is "permitted" since they operate outside the rules of law. Now, of course, if they come after me shooting, [hopefully they would not and would be more lost in the confusion and loss of transportation capability], in a police scenario, I'm probably in the clear to return fire.

One must consider in situations of how much the other person will respond, what limits them from responding further, and what license/limits one has to respond to their actions. There is a great bit of difference, legal difference, between finding one's self in a situation.......and placing one's self in a situation.

I believe the phrase is being careful about which ant hills one stirrs up or don't dig up more snakes than one can kill.
-----------------------------
("It's just mind games; we played them for centuries."--Darla
"Yes, but you were blood sucking, cold hearted, inhuman demons. They're lawyers."--Cordeila
"She's right. Compared to them, we were babes in the woods."--Angel, (wtte), Angel)

thank you di. most of all thank you for opening this site up to come to. i will go carefully. i have too much at stake to be foolish. but, what upsets me most is letting him con all the really nice people i've met with him over the past two years. just wouldn't feel right not doing anything. i do have a wonderful circle of friends. they are very sensible and will discuss this whole thing with me.

first i'm going to clear his stuff out and take some deep breaths. my sons and i have been invited down to the jersey shore for july 4th w/end. once i've had some sea air, have begun healing the damage caused between my sons over all this i will have a better idea of how to deal with my own conscience.

i will need to ask how to tell p he's not coming back. so far he thinks i'm joining him. i found it easier to play along because of his mean vindictive personality. have already seen and tasted how he responds.

time will tell.

thank you nan. i really appreciate your response. i will be very careful. plan on talking it all out with friends first. what bothers me more than anything is how he uses people to get what he wants. if i'm honest i'm sure it's really all about clearing my own conscience. you see i feel horrid because i played along with him. i went on all the trips, first class, just nodded when he lied. some of the folks 'we' conned are so nice and were very generous. i say 'we' because i never walked away from all this. perhaps i'm allowing my guilt to get the better of me. just don't understand why i succumbed so willingly. this whole thing almost cost me my relationship with my children.

so, really what i need to think about is my whole part in this and making amends to others and my own guilt. i believed him when he said he was a journalist. why wouldn't i? he was invited to events and treated like a big shot! by some very well known tv people. who was i to suspect he's a con man?

my friends have been wonderful, never doubted me, never needed proof, just took my word and are supporting me. they tell me not to feel stupid because he took them all in and many others.

i feel as if i'm the criminal here. he uses people in positions of power to give him a life which he doesn't have to pay for.

star

thank you snowleopard for responding to nan. i always read your posts past and present.

the thing with the situation i'm in, is i feel so terrible! i like so many believed p and trusted p. and to discover that all this time he's a liar, an imposter, a con man,a parasite an altogether ruthless person. has thrown my heart and mind into utter chaos!

in many ways i feel that my outing him is more about my own feelings of remorse and guilt. how can i go on in all good conscience knowing who and what he is without saying something? i too benefitted from his conning. i can claim innocense but does that make it right?

but, i understand being careful. and i will not do anything until i've talked it out with my friends.

star

Hi Star

I can understand the feelings of guilt that you are going through. I spent a lot of my counsellor's time and my money going through this very thing. She helped me to sort out quite a lot of issues on this. Firstly, to get rid of my own guilt - by seeing that I was not the one who harmed those people; that I do not and never would have approved of his conduct if I'd understood what was going on, and that the only thing I was guilty of was being terribly naive; which she says is not a bad thing to be.

She also helped me to sort out what I could constructively do to prevent further harm/undo the harm he had done, and what I could do nothing about and had to put behind me.

Don't do anything in a hurry; talk it through with friends you trust, and concentrate on putting your own life back together. Then you will be able to rationally sort out in your mind what you can and should do about the people he's conned. And - as everyone else has said to you - be careful. These people are dangerous.

All the best

Hi SnowLeopard,

I think the issue of revenge is something we all think about. Certainly, I have thought about it. Once you become aware of the damage the P has done, you want to return the 'favour'.

It's an acknowledged truth that you should never go to 'war' without having a fall-back position. Like when playing chess, you must be several moves ahead. You have to know what you want to do and you also have to know what the opponent will do if you do XYZ. You must be protected to win the 'game'.

It did not take me long to realise that in this type of 'game', the P is a master player. I am but a novice. I could never protect myself against his next move for I do not have the kind of mind needed to play against a P master. The only way I could 'win' is by refusing to play.

So, I don't play! I feel pity and compassion for his past and future victims. The only safe and constructive thing I can do is to help raise awareness of the socially adept psychopath.

About wanting revenge, I am reminded of the old story of the elephant and the mouse. Walking across a bridge, the mouse says to the elephant, " My, what a lot of noise the two of us make."

Nan

Hi ... this is Sara from Sydney Australia ... I've just discovered this site ... I recognise many of the traits mentioned in the psychopath in my life ... fortunately it is not a partner and just a neighbour in my unit block ... however, the effect of his behaviour over the past year has placed enormous strain on my life physically, mentally, emotionally, and spritually ... no surprise huh? ... I've orderd Dr Hare's book and am reading everything I can to understand my 'enemy' ... I'm also hoping to find on this site information about what happens when you challenge these sick people? ... I am fighting this guy every step of the way and he just doesn't give up ... it's getting down to the wire now though as I've reported him to various authorities and he has deadlines to meet (which of course he manages to extend and tries to produce fraudulent documents etc) ... of course others think I am the trouble maker & he is a reasonable guy - ha ha - I'm wondering how he is going to react ... will he eventually give up and find an easier target? - it's been one year now - ... or, will his behaviour escalate? ... will he snap and come after me physically? ... up to now, he only breaks the law when he is certain of not being caught ... the hardest part of all this has been to stop myself taking revenge in an unlawful way ... I believe in karma so despite my friends offers to 'deal with him' ... I cannot ... I must fight him through the law and not be tempted to indulge in the same behaviours as him eg cross to the other side and become a pscyhopath in training myself! ... meanwhile, I've had the BEST revenge fantasies but after reading the thread of these emails ... I realise it is energy spent that could be put to better use ... does anyone know how a pyschopath reacts when challenged?

Hi Sara

It does not matter if it is a spouse, a family member or a neighbour or friend as the damage they inflict is the same.

I believe that they love a challenge, especially if they are not paying, e.g. if they get legal aid etc.

They love pitting their wits against the system so see how far they can go, how many people they can con, who they can manipulate into propagating their stories etc.

This is my experience with my ex who was on legal aid and came to the court with lies, lies and more lies. He only stopped when he got me penniless and on legal aid too and got me to move away - the 2 things he said he would get to happen when we split up.

So be careful - it might be a long and costly battle which might not go your way! I think you need to decide if it is worth it as even if you won this round I feel sure he would try something new. But why should they get off with it - I wish they did not but the system is not yet in place to recognise and deal with them.

On the other hand, maybe your experience will be different and there will be hope for truth and justice etc! I hope you let us know what happens as it would be nice to think the sytem will work for you,

Best of luck

Recovery

My story is listed under the heading of Best Friend Psychopath...Thanks to you all for your replies there, and here as well...Nan, you are helping many others, thanks.

Yes I've thought about revenge, in my case "revenge" would be contacting Homicide about the two murders my P confessed to me, in a distant city, and dates/years unknown to me. The thing is, she is so delusional, I have no idea if the stories are true or not. My intuition tells me the stories are most likely true, given what I now know. Either way, it's bad, if she actually did kill two people in the park, separate events, it's bad. If she didn't commit the crimes & made the stories up, that's bad too.

Anonymous Crime-Stopper officer had no knowledge of such crimes in that city, & he is an officer there of long standing & a resident all his life. My fear is that if I call Homicide & ask if such murders are still unsolved, (real events) then I will have to spill the beans & tell all, her name, how I came by the knowledge, all of it.

Then she will come after me, because she will know who ratted her out. As far as I can tell by her stories, no clues were left behind, as she is martial-arts trained & dispatched the two with a single blow to each, so unless she would confess to the police, proof would be hard to come by--my word against hers, and she is known to be mentally ill. (Previous suicide attempt with involuntary comittment, restrained due to violence toward officers, etc...so she is known.) And violent.

The crimes are probably cold cases by now anyway.

The other side of the coin is "What would be the proper action to take, with the greatest good for the society as the foremost consideration?" I mean, for the greatest good of society, should not a serial killer be confined? What if some other poor bloke in the park blinks wrong & she does it again, if it is even real?

The whole thing is nearly driving me crazy....torn between many emotions. Glad to be free on one hand, feeling sadness for her terrible illness & impairment, grieving over loss of a friend, (getting better there) not hating her but seeing the destruction she has brought about for me and others whom I now know about, and feeling guilt because of the confessions of crimes, terrible crimes, and also great fear of what she would or could do if she comes after me. SHE confessed the crimes, so why do I feel guilty? The answer is shared knowledge...it's like handling a huge white-hot rock--what the hell do you do with it?

Counselor has no answer for this dilemma, and it is truly a dilemma. Your comments as persons who have been there, done that, are welcome. I can't be the only person who has knowledge of a Ps illegal acts.....What do you do with information that could get you killed? I have prayed about this mightily, & the answers to prayers come from deep within...and my answer has not come clearly as yet.

Blessings to each of you, Love and Light....Healer.

Hi Healer,

I think many of us here understand your dilemma. It's like being caught between a rock and hard place. Personally, I don't have an answer that I think will help you. It's a difficult judgement call.

I have a comment though om something that does not sound altogether probable.

You write:

"...no clues were left behind, as she is martial-arts trained & dispatched the two with a single blow to each..."

While it IS possible to kill someone that way, you have to be more than highly skilled in any Martial Art to be able to do that. You have to be:

Capable of directing ALL your energy at your target

Which require that you are -
VERY focused
VERY concentrated
VERY determined
VERY skilled

You have to be skilled at using your breath, your body and your mind in unison. In other words, you have to focus on and maintain your One Point.

Does that sound like something that that woman could do? She sounds too scattered to harness that much power within herself.

I have practiced Martial Arts for more than a decade. I practiced every day! I am clear that if necessary I could defend myself very well, but could I kill someone with a SINGLE blow.....? I think it would take more than that unless the target was sleeping or otherwise comatose.

As well, most people do not practice Martial Arts for a longer period of time in order to learn to kill or to defend themselves - they practice for spiritual reasons. Martial Arts are not for correcting others but for correcting yourself.

What kind of Martial Art did she do. And how long did she practice? Do you know?

Nice to hear from you again,

Nan

Hi Sara,

Welcome to this forum.

You write:

"I realise it is energy spent that could be put to better use ..."

You said it! I know that that does not always negate the thoughts of and the desire for revenge. I seem to get these feelings in cycles.

"... does anyone know how a pyschopath reacts when challenged? "

The one I knew, got very angry and threatned me. Or he would haranque me for hours, while doing the hard, cold eye bit. It was pretty scary.

I have not seen him for more than two years and my sense of him is that if I saw him today, he would behave as if everything was honkey dorey.

However, you live very close to the P in question and I would be VERY careful. P's are notorious for being able to manipulate the system and they know how to appear as though they are the victim of other people's mean, thoughtless and aggravating behaviour.

Will he give up and find an easier target? Not as long as he can get a rise out of you. Anything you do to stop him, will let him know that you are still 'playing' catch and he will keep throwing the ball back into your court.

Please be careful Sara. P's are nasty devils. It's almost impossible for a nonP to stoop to their level.

If you can....leave the playing field. Concentrate on your own life and the good things that are in it.

Regards,

Nan

Hi Healer

I often think of what I would do in your position as it is certainly difficult. I think you have a well developed social conscience which won't let you forget this, but also you know how dangerous a P can be and so your own saety must be paramount.

But i think Nan is right, it could all be a fantasy, as it does sound a bit improbable. But on the other hand they are capable of anything.

I would take comfort from the chance that it is a con and avoid this person at all cost. If in the future you think you do know something concrete then it would be time to reevaluate your choices - always keeping your safety in mind.

I hope it all goes well for you.

Recovery

Hi Nan & Recovery ... firstly Nan ... thank you very very very much for your comments ... I will consider them carefully ... they help me understand why four people before me have sold their homes because of this one individual ... also your comments help me understand how this 'P' has managed to manipulate authorities (even lawyers) and turn my neighbours against me when all the time it is HIM who is trying to rip us ALL off! ... even when I show them documentation to prove his fraud/lies/deceit ... they STILL choose to believe him or at the very least, excuse his behaviour ... simply amazing! ... I've been holding on to the belief that eventually the truth will come out however, when that happens, the people involved feel so embarassed and offended etc that they just sell up and leave ... this, in my mind, serves only to make the 'P' stronger ... I was shocked to see your recommendation that I leave the playing field if I can ... I have contemplated this many times ... this would mean losing a substantial sum of money ... close to $100,000 and my beautiful house that took so long to find ... I was hoping that if I hang in there and thwart his attempts to get what he wants (which is common property for his exclusive use and pyschological control of the block of units - which he actually had before I moved in and is now unable to get legally) ... he would eventually move out ... now I wonder about that ... I guess I could always lease my home and rent elsewhere until he is gone ... might just be worth it after reading your comments ... that way, I can still stop him ripping off the other owners but from a distance ... without having to be subjected to the day-to-day game playing ... Recovery, regarding your comments ... thank you very very much also ... I am gaining a clearer picture of what these disturbed people are about ... that helps me greatly! ... I was wondering if this 'P' would continue to lie when eventually in court ... it looks like he would ... I know justice is not always served (and how frustrating is that!) ... I am taking this matter much more seriously now I have the benefit of your comments and the other discussion on the site ... even a friend of mine who is a pyschotherapist could not help as much as you guys have ... I guess you have to actually go a few rounds with these sickos before you can really appreciate the evil involved ... I think it's interesting that he has been able to manipulate everyone around him except myself and my partner ... he could not get away with that from day 1 ... somehow, we were tuned into the vibe around him and his wife ... I wonder what makes so many people susceptible? ... I've decided to hold on to my quest for a few more weeks as I am waiting for a decision from the Office of Fair Trading and the local city council and also should be able to gain some video evidence which will enable me to get an AVO (Apprehended Violence Order) on him ... then, I think I will seriously consider putting my bat and ball down and leaving the field ... at least I can feel good about myself that I was not tempted to break the law (which I recognise is what he would have liked - reminds of that movie 'Pacific Heights' with Michael Keaton and Melanie Griffith) and did not get caught up in a childish game of retailiation ... once again, thanks so much for brining a new awareness about this battle I am choosing to be engaged in and insights about the 'enemy'.

Hi Nan, and all -- Yes, my P is capable of focusing enormous energies into a single blow. She has practiced a number of martial arts daily or nearly daily, including Brazilian street fighting, whatever that is. When she was visiting me she worked out with heavy equipment & speedbag, & I was amazed, the blinding speed, the incredible force. She is a large person, big-boned, wrists measure 11.5 in. at narrow point of wrist, and has large hands, of course. She is a master woodcarver & has enormous hand strength. I have no doubt that the potential is there to do the acts described. And intuition is very strong, that she told me the truth on that issue.

The best thing I can do for myself is to let it go, release it. At least that's the way I feel about it today, lol. It's a problem that's too big to handle at the moment, and I really do want to go on living. I'm not happy about the prospect of calling police, and I'm not happy with the prospect of just letting it go either, it's a no-win situation, so maybe taking the path of self-preservation is the way to go, may God forgive me.

I will post further messages if anything changes, and will check the site for your updates as well. THANK YOU for all the insights, they and you, are invaluable. Blessings, love & light to each of you...Healer.

Addendum to last post: The reason she learned martial arts stems from childhood sexual abuse...she wanted to be able to kill any abuser in the future, & began martial arts training in L.A. as a teen. She is is her 60s now & has continued to work & study different forms of martial arts since the beginning of it. Breath, yes. Focus, yes, intense, unbelievable. I hope this gives you a picture....thanks again.

Good thought Healer ... self-preservation ... I'm going to hold on to that ... thanks.

Hi Sara

If you choose to continue the fight, I would suggest that you keep yourself very focused on the main issues, and those issues which are actually illegal. P's are good at creating a 'haze' of irrelevant things that keep you boxing at shadows rather than putting your energies into those areas of the fight which you may be able to win. Go the whole hog on the legal route where you can and as for any other minor irritations - try to ignore them.

Good luck

Hi Healer

I csn bond so well with what you are feeling. I'm now at the point where I have to make the decision to go to the police with what I know. My P is a paedophile, and the chance of him having fresh victims is so high as to be pretty much a certainty. At the time I found out, no-one was prepared to testify and there would have been no case; also I was in no shape to figure out what to do. At the time, the only thing I could think of, since he lived in a fairly small community, was to set a couple of people in his social circle to watch him, and if he became too friendly with any child, to warn the parents. I think this may have eventually driven him out of the country. However I will shortly be visiting the UK where he now lives and I have to face the fact that I should go to the police there and give them full details of what I know, and also see if I can get an ex-victim of his who also lives there to back me up. There is probably not enough evidence to put him away, but at least if they record my testimony they will take any future complaints seriously. Not looking forward to it.

Re: focused punches: I agree with you. I have been kicked by a horse and smacked by a psychopath. I would prefer the horse.

I think you don't have to make any decisions straight away. Let yourself heal, and as your mind becomes clearer on the subject, you will find it easier to know what to do.

All the best

Ali ... oh my goodness ... now I think about it, you are sooooo right! ... I'm finding 'P's are so 'classic' in their behaviour ... I greatly appreciate your comments ... many many thanks ... I have learned much in the past 12 months in dealing with this 'P' ... and the learning continues ... I'm so glad I found this site ... good luck everyone & thanks for sharing such valuable information with me ... I'm amazed I have actually found people who are going through or have already gone through a situation with a 'P' ... it's difficult for others to understand ... they all say to me "But he CANNOT do that!" ... and I say ... "I KNOW!!! but he does & he is getting away with it!" ... when they ask me how ... all I can say is ... "Because people give him the benefit of the doubt as they just cannot imagine or comprehend that anyone would actually act or be like what we accuse him of" ... I'm going to keep reading & when I'm stumped, I'll ask questions to learn more in what has become my life's quest ... I'm not sure I could sleep at night if I simply allowed this 'P' to manipulate me and rip me off as he does with others ... not without giving it my best shot anyway ... of course I will heed all warnings I've been given here ... I like to think that there must be some blessings to come out of this horrible situation.

Quick Questions - to anyone who knows

1 Do you think it is worth trying to warn people around you about the 'P'? It seems as though people don't want to know or become involved in what they think is a dispute between two parties (when in fact it is much wider than that & actually affects them financially). I'm not sure if it does more harm than good to warn them as I ususally come off looking like a trouble maker & it seems people have to experience the 'P's evil first hand themselves, but then of course, they run away (sometimes because they feel stupid for being tricked & even worse when they realise they were warned) which makes it even more difficult for me to prove things etc. So, do I warn people, produce evidence etc or not bother?

2 Is it wise to send the 'P' the evidence you have on them in an attempt to discourage them to keep going down the same path or keep it to yourself & only produce it when you have to & when they have lied & you can prove them wrong in front of witnesses? (I think I know the answer but need confirmation.)

3 How do you guys know so much about how to handle these people? I've been searching everywhere for info ... there is plenty out there on the profile of a 'P' but not how to deal with their unbelievable behaviour. Is it just from experience?

4 I have refused to engage in conversation with the 'P' in my life without a witness for a year now. Is this a good strategy? I don't want to hear the lies, threats, and attempts at manipulation. I've asked him (in writing) to put any communications to me in writing - which of course he rarely does as this can be used as evidence.

5 What is the best way to act when I have to sit down in face to face meetings with him? I have to do this a few times a year. On Monday I am attending a hearing with him & I've asked for a 'Shuttle Mediation Hearing' which means he and I will be in different rooms & the Mediator goes between the two rooms. The reason I've given is that his behaviour offends, intimidates, and humiliates me - which is the truth. However, I cannot always do this & sometimes my partner and I have to face him & his wife in a meeting - which he drags out for 3 hours each time - bamboozling everybody there with his verbal BS. I've tried arguing & outsmarting him ... of course, this doesn't work. I've tried ignoring him & not making eye contact & addressing the Chairperson at the meetings only. However, when I ask the Chairperson a question, the 'P' answers & the
Chairperson shuts up. Of course this is domination in trying to take over the meeting. He argues constantly with the Chairperson - assuming he knows the law better than all the rest of us. It's difficult to sit there & hear the lies without flagging them as lies. Do I just call out "That's false" when I hear the outrageous lies or do I simply take notes & when it's my turn to talk, attempt to correct the version of the truth that the 'P' has twisted etc? Any advice on this would help.

6 When the 'P' knows he cannot get out of something, he tries the tactic of being seen to agree to something, he of course has no intention of carrying out what's been agreed to & simply does nothing or blocks attempts by others to do what has been agreed to. How do I explain to the authorities that I am not being uncooperative, I simply do not have faith in the 'P's intentions to honour what he has agreed to - based on past behaviour which I can prove? Is this possible at all or do I simply have to wait until the deadline has passed & then pick up the issue again & pursue it through the proper channels? I know the 'P' gets off on causing the delay & putting me to the time, trouble, & frustration of relentlessly pursuing the matter but if it get's done in the end (which is what has happened in the past) I've learned to be satisfied with that. Is there a way to name & call what they are doing at the time?

7 When I am forced to cross paths with him at my home, is it best to totally ignore him or to look him in the eye or to smirk at him or what?

8 Does anyone have any other tips at all relating to dealing with these monsters? I found Ali's tip re focussing on the main issues absolutely invaluable. I need more info though - please help if you can.

Healer,

You write that your intuition tells you that the woman is speaking the truth. I would trust my intuition then.

I was playing the devil's advocate because I know something about Martial Arts and because I know how P's love to brag about different high-stakes exploits and about having got the better of tom, dick and harry. P's like to 'impress' other with their power - mental or otherwise.

I believe that you have done what you can. You have contacted someone who should know and have been told that no such crime has occurred.

What do you expect would happen if you called the police?

I have never been in such a situation but I suppose that you'll be asked for evidence. As far as I can see, you do not much in the way of real evidence except her words that she has committed a crime. The police will want to know your name, her name and so on. The police will check if the woman has previously committed or been charged with any crimes.

If you are convinced that this woman has committed a crime, then going to the police will ease your conscience, but it will also bring more havoc into your life. You may or you may not be prepared for that. In any case, no matter what you do, the crimes cannot be ondone and there is a good chance that the woman will retaliate in some way. She will know that it was you who went to the police with her confession to you.

Why do think she told you? Do you have any idea why?

I don't quite know how it's done, but I believe that it's possible for you to hire an investigator, who can check if the woman has a clean police record. An investigator may also be able to check out other facts that you may have about the woman's story. This way, you are doing something towards finding out what actually occurred while keeping OUT of the storm. Should an investigator find something that supports the woman's story, he/she may be able to help you decide what the next step should be.

It seems as though it is imparative for you to do something to ease your conscience and hiring an investigator to get at the facts may be one sensible way to do that without endangering yourself.

Take care,

Nan

Sara,

I am sorry if I shocked you by saying that: " if you can....leave the playing field."

Re: your questions.

1. While the few people I have told about the P, believe that I had a difficult relationship experience with a man, they do NOT understand the ramifications of having known a P. The terrible upside down world that a P creates is incomprensible to anyone who has not experienced it. So it is difficult at best to warn other people of dangers that they are unable to percieve as real. You are correct in everything you say about other people's responses. It makes you feel very lonely. You can warn, and you may find one or two people who will know what you are talking about, but do not expect to be taken seriously.

2. I would keep all evidence to myself. It is very difficult to discourage a P - they think they are invincible, that they are masters in a world filled with fools. If you show the P, he will be prepared to defend himself (and he will).

3. Yes. Experience! There's no substitute for experience. You have only to read a few posts here on different subjects to know that dealing with a P is a life shattering experience.

4. Personally, I think it's a good strategy to have witnesses to each and every conversation. At the very least, you'll know that YOU have not lost your mind. The P really said or did XYZ.

I don't have a good answer to 5 and 6. Although I recognise some of the behaviour: dominating, lying, bullying, intimidating, taking over, controlling the conversation, interupting the conversation with long haranques about inconsequentials, etc. etc.,I do not have experience with court cases, only the individual nehaviour.

7. I would NOT seek him out and I would try VERY hard to avoid him, even if it meant going miles out of my way. But if I met him, I would not ignore him. I would be polite, but nothing more. Nod hello, and keep walking. Do not engage in conversation of any kind. If forced to, listen, but say nothing. Try to stay cool, calm and collected. Try not to show fear.

8. I agree 100% with Ali about keeping a clear focus on the real issues. P's are great at 'smokes and mirrors' that confuse and disturb and take away the focus from the real issues at hand. If nothing else works, they do the 'poor little me' bit, playing the victim to the hilt, thereby gaining a great deal of compassion that (in other people's eyes) will excuse and even explain their asocial behaviour.

Sara, believe in yourself. Do not allow the P to twist your mind into noodle soup. You sound strong and very capable. Stay that way!

Nan

Thanks to each of you. You're right, I have no evidence, & the police need something to go on, for starters, that would be her name. I'm not going there. I have no idea why she told me, but it certainly was not doing me any favor. I have given it to a Higher Power. She is married, lives with her husband whom she says is alcoholic...If ever there was a dysfunctional home, that home would be it. For me to go out on a very shaky limb in the interests of society seems futile. I need to heal myself before I can tackle the society at large, lol.

Blessing to you all! Healer

Hi Sara

One thing I forgot to mention. If you are going to fight this man, you have to make sure that your own life is squeaky clean. If there is anything that could be in any way twisted or construed to be illegal, and he finds out about it, he will take you to the cleaners with it.So make sure everything you do is a long way on the right side of the law!

The other tactic they use is to make you appear illogical and hysterical - and oh boy, do they know which buttons to push to achieve that effect. So your best defense is to be cool, calm, collected, well prepared and as far as possible unemotional. If you do warn anyone about him, stick to provable facts. If they don't want to know, then leave the subject. You will have tried; you can't do more than this.

I agree with Nan that you should on no account send him any evidence. It will just give him more ammunition and is unlikely to frighten him into backing down.

As to how to react when you meet him: it's very difficult! Agree with Nan that you should just say hello and walk on if you bump into him. At meetings, I think the tactic you suggested of taking notes and bringing up the points when he's finished would be best. Avoid emotional arguments and heated exchanges. Just stick to clear, logical facts.

Have you documented everything that's happened? Try to keep a journal in writing so that you always have your facts straight.

Hope it works out for you. Keep us posted as to what happens!

Hi Nan

I love your idea of a private investigator. If I can afford it, I will do just that when I get to UK. At least I will then know if he is still active and whether or not to be concerned.

Hi Ali,

Thanks. My pea brain works some of the time.

Talk to you later<s>.

Nan

Hi Healer

Think you are making the right decision for your own peace of mind. Once you have got yourself on track why don't you help with our drive to raise awareness? For all of us, the most difficult thing is geting the system etc to hear what we have to say - the P usually has been there before us and set the scene for us not to be believed. But we can at least try and help each other and others by trying to have the these Ps recognised for what they are and what they do to so many people.

you can also help heal other victims of Ps -as we all try to do here. So there are millions of ways in which you can still help.

Keep strong

Recovery

Quick Questions - to anyone who knows

Hi Sara I have put my comments below - brief and brutal but that is how i see things when dealing with Ps. Hope you don't mind the directness.

1 Do you think it is worth trying to warn people around you about the 'P'? It seems as though people don't want to know or become involved in what they think is a dispute between two parties (when in fact it is much wider than that & actually affects them financially). I'm not sure if it does more harm than good to warn them as I ususally come off looking like a trouble maker & it seems people have to experience the 'P's evil first hand themselves, but then of course, they run away (sometimes because they feel stupid for being tricked & even worse when they realise they were warned) which makes it even more difficult for me to prove things etc. So, do I warn people, produce evidence etc or not bother?

HI I agree with Nan or was it Ali?, in that they want to play the game and usually will win because they have planned for the day someone will try to unmask them.

2 Is it wise to send the 'P' the evidence you have on them in an attempt to discourage them to keep going down the same path or keep it to yourself & only produce it when you have to & when they have lied & you can prove them wrong in front of witnesses? (I think I know the answer but need confirmation.)

NEVER - I made that mistake with my ex. It is just ammunition for them to turn against you and they will use anything.

3 How do you guys know so much about how to handle these people? I've been searching everywhere for info ... there is plenty out there on the profile of a 'P' but not how to deal with their unbelievable behaviour. Is it just from experience?

Absolutely - I remember when i had no clue about what was wrong but I knew something was. Then the mask came off and I saw what he really was. AS the truth cam up i felt as if the ground had been turned into shifting sand and I was lurching around looking for an anchor. Then I found the word Psychopath and after that everything fell into place and since then his actions have not deviated from the pattern. SO it is down to experience.

4 I have refused to engage in conversation with the 'P' in my life without a witness for a year now. Is this a good strategy? I don't want to hear the lies, threats, and attempts at manipulation. I've asked him (in writing) to put any communications to me in writing - which of course he rarely does as this can be used as evidence.

There is no point in communicating direct - it will be used against you. Acknowledge the P if you have to but that should be all.

5 What is the best way to act when I have to sit down in face to face meetings with him? I have to do this a few times a year. On Monday I am attending a hearing with him & I've asked for a 'Shuttle Mediation Hearing' which means he and I will be in different rooms & the Mediator goes between the two rooms. The reason I've given is that his behaviour offends, intimidates, and humiliates me - which is the truth. However, I cannot always do this & sometimes my partner and I have to face him & his wife in a meeting - which he drags out for 3 hours each time - bamboozling everybody there with his verbal BS. I've tried arguing & outsmarting him ... of course, this doesn't work. I've tried ignoring him & not making eye contact & addressing the Chairperson at the meetings only. However, when I ask the Chairperson a question, the 'P' answers & the
Chairperson shuts up. Of course this is domination in trying to take over the meeting. He argues constantly with the Chairperson - assuming he knows the law better than all the rest of us. It's difficult to sit there & hear the lies without flagging them as lies. Do I just call out "That's false" when I hear the outrageous lies or do I simply take notes & when it's my turn to talk, attempt to correct the version of the truth that the 'P' has twisted etc? Any advice on this would help.

When I was told to mediate with my ex I explained to the mediator what he was. That I could trust NOTHING he said. She said that mediation is impossible in this situation as it can only work if there is a modicum of trust. So I think you are wasting your time in mediation - Its all part of the attention seeking game but will not get you anywhere as i assume the mediator is not a P spotter.

6 When the 'P' knows he cannot get out of something, he tries the tactic of being seen to agree to something, he of course has no intention of carrying out what's been agreed to & simply does nothing or blocks attempts by others to do what has been agreed to. How do I explain to the authorities that I am not being uncooperative, I simply do not have faith in the 'P's intentions to honour what he has agreed to - based on past behaviour which I can prove? Is this possible at all or do I simply have to wait until the deadline has passed & then pick up the issue again & pursue it through the proper channels? I know the 'P' gets off on causing the delay & putting me to the time, trouble, & frustration of relentlessly pursuing the matter but if it get's done in the end (which is what has happened in the past) I've learned to be satisfied with that. Is there a way to name & call what they are doing at the time?

No Well I did not find one - this is what my ex did - everytime I proved he had lied he through up a wider smokescreen about something even easier to prove a lie - but as I was not given the opportunity it worked fro him.

7 When I am forced to cross paths with him at my home, is it best to totally ignore him or to look him in the eye or to smirk at him or what? Acknowledge if you must - but no more

8 Does anyone have any other tips at all relating to dealing with these monsters? I found Ali's tip re focussing on the main issues absolutely invaluable. I need more info though - please help if you can.

I would say that as long as he is getting attention - good or bad he will continue, its the power, the fun, the buzz for them. I had to walk away at a great financial cost - but it was the only way to protect my daughter and keep my health. I think I would advise you to think about doing that too.

Best of luck

Recovery

Nan, Ali & Recovery

(Apologies for such a long message - just had to get it all out.)

Thank you all so much for your advice, answering my questions, and sharing your experiences with me.

Yesterday I attended a Mediation Hearing at the Office of Fair Trading. My partner & I instigated this against the 'P' and his wife. I had already told the mediator that I believe we are dealing with someone who fits the profile of a 'P' and she told me that she has dealt with 'P's before, even the ones who are in prison.

Anyway, as a tactical move, we requested a "shuttle" mediation which means we are in a separate room from the 'P' and the mediator goes back and forth between us. This way, he has no 'audience' as such and has to comment on our facts presented to him and present his own facts. The only way we agreed to meet with him face to face was if the meeting could be held at the property, or, if our Strata Manager could be present - both of which would minimise his opportunity to lie. Of course, he objected to both these scenarios so that's when we said "OK, but without an independent witness there, or without having it at the property, we insist on a shuttle mediation due to the past intimidation, harassment etc."

The first hour was spent on formalities, eg the mediator explaining to us the legalities of the process and then going to their room to do the same, answering any questions etc.

The second hour was spent with the mediator taking notes on our (my partner & I) issues.

The third hour was spent with the mediator relaying our issues are and what we want the outcome to be - which was basically having the law complied with to the 'P' and his wife. (All of this was documented anyway but they like to you express it verbally.)

We were very eager to hear what the 'P' could come up with to explain his many breeches of the law (Strata, Council AND Civil law). We couldn't figure out how he would try to get out of it. All we could predict was that he would deny everything (all of which we can prove - and he knows that). We were prepared for his denials as all we had to do was disagree and then the mediation process fails as we cannot reach an agreement which then allows us to take him to Adjudication which is based solely on written submissions and he has no opportunity to present his case in person to anyone - exactly what we want - he is very good with facts in writing - and we have proof to counter the lies we know he will put forward.

After the third hour with the 'P', the mediator came back to us saying "The attempt at mediation is over, they have left."

We couldn't have wished for a better outcome as now, it will be recorded that he abandoned the mediation process before anything was actually discussed which will not look good to the Adjudicator and also, we are free to take our complaints against him to Adjudication. We will finally be able to submit 12 months worth of hard evidence against him. I cannot see how he can get out of this.

We expect the behaviour at the property to get worse now however we have video surveillance set up and would actually welcome catching them doing something destructive to our property as it will greatly help our case against them.

I know he will now be plotting new stuff to come up with.

By the time the Adjudication hearing is set, we should have an order from the Council asking him to undo the unauthorised changes he has made to the property and the minutes of our next Strata meeting which should show his attempts to take common property have failed, and, hopefully we will enough video evidence on them to take out an AVO which means they have to go to court to have it served on them - they have no choice. This will not sit well with them as they take pride in their "nice guy" image to others. I have made the choice to antagonise them as I am willing to wear the costs - I have

This stuff must sound quite boring to you guys whose 'P's were into the personal/emotional betrayals but the arrogance and audacity of this guy is quite amazing. For example, when he moved into his unit, he removed a common wall, changed the direction of his staircase, put private locks on a common door and started using this door as a back entrance to his unit. He effectively stole our common storeroom and is using it as part of this unit! All this was done without notification or permission.

He and his wife also parked their cars directly in front of our garage so we could not use it. When we spoke to them about it, they said "We want your garage, we'll arrange to buy it from you."

They also want to take over the whole back yard, the common laundry, the side yard and the driveway. They actually had done this when we moved in. We are astounded how they bullied the other residents into accepting this.

We have had many small wins in blocking their attempts to establish psychological and physical barriers between the back of the property and the front of the property. He has shown us his grand plans for the property which basically spend all our money on greatly increase the value of his unit. He will probably then sell up and leave us with all the other repairs to pay for.

Our problem has always been that the other owners have not lived at the property and could not grasp what the 'P' was about as he seems so reasonable and only wants harmony at the property and cannot understand why we want to continually cause trouble(ugggh!).

Anyway, there is only one other owner now as people kept selling and we borrowed heavily to buy the unit next door so we have more voting rights etc. The 'P' has the most voting rights as his unit is two storey. His classic line used to be "I have 45% voting rights in this property so if I don't want it to happen, it won't!" We have 40% now. So while he can outvote on us on most things (the other owner lives overseas and doesn't want to know) he can never get his hands on common property without our consent. He has even forged the other (previous) owners' signatures on a document - we managed to get written statements from them that they did not sign the document.

My partner and I have been careful not to get sucked into reacting to the minor irritations (eg dog faeces on our front porch and front door mat, being sworn at and insulted when we try and do our washing etc).

Although, I lost it the other night, I went out for a short while and came home to find the driveway blocked with 4 large garbage bins - it was garbage night and guess who thinks he is in charge of the property and thus things like putting out the bins and always beats everyone else to putting them out so they just leave it to him - I made a split second decision to drive right through them as it was raining outside - they were pushed aside and one fell over and the garbage spilled out. I left it like that when I left the property the next morning and when I returned, the mess had been cleaned up etc - it would have to have been by the 'P'. Sometimes it's very hard not become emotional about it.

Recovery:

Brief and brutal is fine with me - I've toughened up so much from my experiences with the 'P'.

I agree in not communicating directly, I can see it drives them nuts not being able to even try to con us as we refuse to listen - when my partner has been cornered by the 'P' in our laundry (the 'P' was ripping out our electricity cord from the power point while our washing machine was mid-cycle) - the 'P' said "You may not want to talk to me but you HAVE to listen to what I have to say". My partner said "No I don't" and stuck his fingers in his ears - ha ha.

On other occasions the 'P' has followed my partner around the property saying "You have to listen to me" and my partner either puts industrial ear muffs on his head or enters our unit or garage and slams the door on the 'P's face.

Once the 'P' knocked on our garage door, my partner opened it, saw it was the 'P' and went to close the door and the 'P' actually held the door open by force so my partner took out his mobile phone and called the police - we have a police report on them that is quite long and have called the police to the property a few times - the 'P' hates that and got so upset he actually put a threat in writing to us to damage our appliances if we didn't agree to his terms of using the laundry etc - that will help our case immensely!

I guess the police knocking on the 'P's door (even though they deny everything of course) doesn't look good to the neighbours and ruins their "nice guy" image a bit even though we of course are just trying to cause trouble. I now understand the part about the attention seeking, whether good or bad, thanks. I'm not ready to walk away and bear a great financial cost at this stage.

The 'P' has been cunning but not all that clever really as he keeps taking people for fools and now that the authorities are involved, it is more difficult to get away with things - especially as I am continually calling and writing to warn them - the authorities have to place my documents on their files and as what I've predicted comes true, they pay my warnings more attention. The authorities don't like game playing. Your comments help a lot!

Ali:

We are trying to remain "squeaky clean". It's not difficult as we don't have anything to hide. Yes I ram raided the garbage bins but the fact is 'someone' placed them in the driveway thus blocking access and everyone knows who is the self appointed King of the garbage bins at our property and he would have to implicate himself.

My partner and I want what is best for ALL residents and even though the other owners doesn't get it yet, we are fighting for his rights also, and of our tenants. We don't care if everyone hates us, we must stand up for our rights and not let this 'P' rip us all off.

I try to meditate before the meetings where I have to face them and think loving thoughts and trust in the universe. I also try not to make eye contact with them at any time. I try to act as if they don't exist. The reason for this is that we don't want to be dragged into futile arguments with them. Your comments help a lot!

Nan:

Thanks for explaining the 'poor me' tune they play and the 'smokes and mirrors'. I can't help thinking others are stupid to fall for it though. Your comments help a lot! At times I did allow them to do my head in a bit however awareness is golden and know I finally know what I'm dealing with, it changes everything. It's definitely a game. Sometimes it brings out good things in me but sometimes it brings out ugly hatred etc. It's definitely a learning, growing, and even healing experience for me.

One day I hope to be able to look back and even say a quiet thank you to the 'P' for being the catalyst for this interesting time in my life. I don't remember how I used to spend my time before all this but when this fight is over I'm going to try - I’ll never take for granted little things like washing and drying my clothes without harassment, stepping out my front door without being armed with tape recorder, camera, pen/notebook and making sure I've remembered to set the surveillance camera as well as being able to say hi to my neighbours without knowing someone has been continually trying to poison their minds against me. Although I no longer care about other's opinion of me like I used to.

One of the most difficult things for me was when I first came to the property, I discovered the 'P' had taken out the clothes line as it was in the back yard and he didn't want anyone else to have a reason to go to the back yard as he considers it 'his'. I felt so sorry for the tenant who had to try to dry their clothes on chairs at the front of their unit so I fought really hard to get a clothes line put in the side yard. When it was eventually done - guess who opposed it?

The 'P' must have told the tenants he arranged it as I heard one the tenants saying to the 'P'. Thank you so much for getting us the clothes line, it means so much to us to have somewhere to dry our clothes etc and was the 'P's best friend from then on. Then the same tenant told me off for causing trouble with the parking - when I asked for a chance to explain the whole situation they said "I don't want know - don't involved me" but of course they had listened to the 'P's lies and believed them. I'm learning not to care about that and focus on the outcome I want.

Interesting to note though that when we bought the unit next door, guess who lived there and guess which tenant doesn't live at the property anymore? - ha ha - great payback for their unwillingness to even listen to our side of the story.

Sometimes it is so obvious who the universe is looking after - long term - that keeps me honest too.

I've found that the people whom are so willing and ready to take the side of the 'P' usually share some of the same values as the 'P' and are probably not people I would want in my life anyway.

I'm looking forward to the day when I can look forward to the end of the day and weekends as at the moment I sometimes dread them - why? - because I have to go home - sad.

Hi Sara

So glad you managed to score a victory! Really hope things move for you now.

Your story is not at all boring; just another insight into the weird world of psychopaths.

What is his wife like? Another psychopath or just greedy and acquisitive? I read somewhere that two psychopaths will not usually team up so I find it interesting.

Don't judge those who side with him too harshly. Who knows what lies he has told them, how plausible he has been, and what emotional levers he has pulled to get them to see things his way. When I was with P I sided with him on all kinds of issues - only to realise many years later that the people I sided with him against were undoubtedly right and fully justified. As Nan says, its all 'smoke and mirrors' - you see illusions as reality.

Good luck

Hi Ali

Thanks for your posting. I guess scoring minor victories against this 'P' is what keeps me going. I have to remember to focus on all I've achieved (with my partner - we give each other strength when one of us feels like giving up) rather than what we still have to fight for.

The 'P's wife is quite dumb. When I first found out we are dealing with a 'P', I couldn't work out why he would choose a stupid partner. Then I realised that she would not challenge his warped view of the world and would be easy for him to manipulate. She is actually a liability to him. In meetings she says the most inane things and does not help his case. She often becomes emotional and resorts to childish retaliation antics at the property which shows us where her state of mind is at any given time.

She also has provided us with much of the information for the Police report. At one stage she was standing on her balcony hurling abuse at my partner and screaming for the 'P' to come and stop my partner from doing what he was doing (ie cleaning up the yard from the 'P's building rubble and rubbish which was approved at a meeting. The 'P' just ignored her and didn't appear.

I have thought about what you wrote about not judging those who side with the 'P'. I believe you are right and will take this on board. It was not my intention to offend anyone who has believed and trusted a 'P' before (although I doubt it was while people were warning you about them and there was obviously two sides of the story and it involved their money, home, etc.)

I guess it's different from our perspective as the 'P' revealed his mask to us quite early so we have never really been taken in by him. I am naturally a suspicious person anyway and don't let people get close to me until they have proven they are worthy, especially when they lie to me in the first few times I meet them and start flattering me. My partner is different and expects the best of everyone until they prove otherwise however through this experience, he has learnt to hold back just a little bit.

I have read a few articles on the way con artists work though and the level of trust they are able to elicit from their victims is amazing. I will remind myself (through gritted teeth) we are all on our own journey and what they learn from their own experience of dealing with this 'P' will serve them in their lives later.

It does blow my mind though when there is hard evidence available from many different sources and enough people who can back our stories up, yet the people he has fooled are not even interested in checking this out! I guess they have their own stuff invested in not having the 'P's true self revealed???

I appreciate your good wishes and think about the advice I have been given in this forum often. Just this morning I was tempted to respond to something the 'P' did last night - caught him on the video putting dog faeces into our garden - and thought "no, don't play, ignore the minor irritations and focus on the big issues". It felt good reserving that mental and physical energy. Thanks everyone!

PS: Are you guys in the US?

Hi Sara,

Congratulations! I read your account of the recent Mediation Meeting. Good for you!

You write:

"I have read a few articles on the way con artists work though and the level of trust they are able to elicit from their victims is amazing. "

No doubt of that. You have to remember though, that a P is no ordinary seller of snake oil. A P is not your average garden variety con artist - easy to see through. When you have an intimate relationship with a P, you are conned on a very profound level that almost defies description.

It's not one giant con, but a whole host of very minor cons - cons so small that you don't see them. The biggest con of all it that at first a P will love and care for you in a way that no one has before. He is kind, gentle, supportive and very loving and without a doubt, the nicest man you have ever met. It's hard to resist being loved that way and you fall in love with him. He responds by being even more loving and the goose is cooked to perfection.

By the time you realise that a few things are not as you thought, it's incredibly hard to believe and when you ask the P for clarification you get a story - a VERY plausible story that explains the disrepreancy. By now, you have invested a lot of time, love and thought in the relationship and you feel almost like a traitor to think ill of this loving, caring man, who loves you like you have never been loved before.

By the time you realise that it is a CON, you are so emotionally invested, even if at this point, it's mostly negatively, that you vacilate back and forth wanting to believe the unbelievable.

Can you imagine how hard it must be to come to grips with the notion that you have been cruelly conned? That you have been used and abused by someone your trusted? That you were NEVER loved for yourself.

I can assure you that many of us here walk around with invisble but very real scarlet letters - FOOL - on our foreheads, and the worst part is we have put it there ourselves.

The emotional damage of having had a relationship with a P continues long after he is gone. There is anger, which we turn against ourselves. There is fear, which we turn against other men. There is intense sadness that we will never learn to love again.

Behind the support, advice and commisseration many distraught posters can find here, are women (and men) with shattered lives.

I am not in the States: I live in Northen Europe.

Nan

Hi Sara

Sounds like you have some very sensible and awre people batting for you - which is brilliant. I am glad you are getting some progress, but stil take care.

His partner sounds rather neurotic - but this could be a function of life with a P. I met my ex's ex ( if you see what I mean) and thought her a bit neurotic, silly etc. I went to see her after we split up and I was discovering the truth and found her to be intelligent, caring etc. I also found that I sounded more like she did that she did now! I know that sounds odd but I could hear myself sounding as she did when he first left her. So never underestimate the damage they do to the victims!

I hope your success continues.

Take care

Recovery

Hi Nan

I appreciate you explaning what it is like to be 'bitten' by a 'P' via an intimate relationship. I can relate your experience to the many people (past owners) who have finally seen part of the mask come off and then, instead of staying and putting the 'P' in his place, choose to retreat. Even if they feel a quarter of what you (and others) have felt, I totally understand their behaviour now (I used to think they were gutless, weak, and stupid).

It also explains why those who are invested in some way would rather believe the 'P' so they can remain 'right' - if you know what I mean as the prospect of discovering they have been used, manipulated, etc is, of course, pretty devastating and makes them question their own judgement etc.

My neighbours (an elderly French couple) who used to be friends with my partner and I have been completely taken in by the 'P' only recently. They now describe him as their "very good friend" despite the fact that he used to be quite rude to them in the past when they were just renting however since their son (who lives in the United Kingdom) bought the unit, the 'P' did a 360 degree turn around with them and they lapped it up.

These old people now are attacking us also. However, they are not as cunning or clever as the 'P' and we have caught them interferring with our private property on video a number of times. The 'P' is careful when he touches our private property and usually limits his destruction to common property that directly services our private property (a technicality he can and does get away with).

This morning I was late to work as someone put a screwdriver in our garage door lock and had to have it repaired. This reeks of the elederly couple's behaviour rather than the 'P'. They would not understand that the garage door is classed as common property even though it is for my private garage and as such, the repair is paid for by all the owners (including their son). I'm sure the 'P' would have this sussed although he has done stupid things like turn away tradespeople who have come to fix things at the property four times which in turn, makes it more expensive for all of us - anyway, regardless of who did this damage, it was directly or indirectly related to the 'P'.

The words from this forum helped me last night and this morning when retaliation and revenge were strongly on my mind. I kept saying to myself "Don't play, don't play" and it worked! Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks.

Anyway, regarding the mediation, it was just another small win and we have some big wins to come which makes the minor irritations easier to bear. It will be very interesting to
see how the 'P' reacts when the big wins for us come. I can't see him retreating, not sure what he'll do. We will be careful but we will continue to live our lives as we should be able to. We have so much evidence on the 'P' now that if anything more serious happened, all roads lead directly to him. I realise he will probably do a great job of redirecting these roads so I'll just do the best I can and trust the universe (& you guys).

Sara

Hi Recovery

Thanks for your good wishes. In this game I've found that while we do have small wins, the good feeling from them don't last that long as the 'P' is always in the background conjouring up more 'stuff' which comes to light piece by piece.

Regarding your comments about the 'P's wife being neurotic and silly, I completely agree. I wonder about their relationship though. Perhaps his evil is focused outside their relationship?

Anyway, at this stage I am still in the game but just not hitting as many balls back and when I do, I make sure it's a home run. I watch with interest as so many people around me create enormous karmic debts for themselves and one day I believe payment will be called for. Even though I may not be around to witness it, the thought comforts me.

Many thanks for your posting and your concern. Sometimes when it all gets too much, I come to this site and read through the postings - it helps.
Sara

Hi Sara

Please, please be careful. The whole situation sounds terribly dangerous. Remember there are no 'brakes' on a P's behaviour, and no thought of long-term consequences.

Re his wife: who knows what he has done to her to turn her into a gutless moron. Mine used drugs (put in my drink without my knowledge), heavy emotional blackmail, very cruel lies and extreme violence to turn me into a half-wit in just one night. Never mind the subsequent years of manipulation, mind control, appeals to sympathy, brief periods where he was the most charming and lovable person on earth interspersed with weeks of monstrous behaviour which always followed them.

Another thought: if you actually have proof of forged documents, have you reported it to the fraud unit of the police? Never mind the civil charges re what he has done to your property, this is a criminal offence and could put him straight where he belongs.

Regards

Hi Ali

I am horrified to hear of what your ex did to you. Congratulations to you for surviving it, you must have an exceptionally strong spirit.
I actually don't perceive the situation as terribly dangerous. It seems like a game to me. I believe this 'P' has become even more cocky than they usually are as when he first moved in 2 years ago and started knocking out walls and changing the structure of his unit (including stealing common property) without being challenged (well, he was once but he managed to fob that off with another false document - all of which I have written proof but haven't used yet) plus getting away with bullying all the other residents out of the laundry, back yard, and side yard (all common areas) he just kept going and took over the driveway, changed his garage into a bedroom for his children and then had plans to divide up the property further with him taking the majority of common property to increase the value of unit and got away with it all.

When we first moved in 18 months ago he said to us "I'm so glad you are here, the previous owner would not agree to anything I wanted to do to common property and I am feeling frustrated as I've been waiting 9 months to get approval to carry out my plans."

Almost immediately after we met him we knew something wasn't right and when he refused to stop parking his car in front of our garage, we got into an argument (our first and last as we haven't spoken to him or her since except in meetings) he actually said "I am NOT parking in the street, I have every right to park in the driveway because I have a 2 bedroom unit." (Totally irrational and incorrect reasoning of course.) Guess where he is parking now? Yep, in the street however I know he only conceded to this as he is hatching other plans and he believes this is short term.

In the one argument my partner had with the ‘P’, my partner said “Look, I can be a ….. (really bad swear word) about this if you want, it’s up to you” and the ‘P’ said “So can I”. Then that night I called the ‘P’ and basically said “If you don’t obey the law and stop obstructing our rights, we will go the full hog on you and report you to everyone (Council, Tenancy Tribunal, Police etc). I then backed this up with a letter of our conversation and asked that any future communication with us be put in writing etc and hand delivered it to them. We then hired a Solicitor and spent $2,000 to be told all we can do is follow the various legal channels to prosecute him – which is what we are doing – see my plan at the end of this long posting (sorry).

Also, he only stopped parking in front of our garage after 6 weeks when the Strata Manager told him (after arguing with him for ages about it) that he CANNOT do this and will be fined if he continues (that's the only threat that works with him). Of course he played all sorts of games to delay the meeting for 6 weeks so he could continue breaching the law.

With the common laundry, he was using it as laundry for himself as well as storeroom for all his stuff. We asked him to make room for our stuff and he did - he left a tiny space nowhere near the taps so we could not hook up our machine. We pursued this through the Strata Manager and he was forced to make room near the taps but not near enough so we could hook up the machine (all the while telling everyone we complained to that he had done as we asked and why are we still causing trouble etc).
My partner's Father (who is quite handy) then rigged up a complicated figuration where we could in fact connect to the pipes so he was foiled. And that's how it's been ever since. He tries and even gets away with denying us our rights but over time, we generally find a way to foil him however we do suffer consequences of course. At one stage I used to hide inside our unit all weekend and was afraid to go around the back to the laundry but my partner finally made me see that I was doing exactly what the 'P' wanted - staying out of the side yard, back yard, and laundry. The wife used to swear at me and they both harassed us continually. This is a breech of Strata law as residents have to allow other residents peaceful enjoyment of common property.

He has sometimes made threats that he has not carried out like “if you don’t do as i say, i will disconnect the power to your garage and your washing machine” and has not ended up doing it (not sure why) & this only serves to make him look foolish in our eyes but i know he wouldn’t care about that.

So, while he is arrogant enough to argue with the authorities on what he thinks he has a right to do, he does eventually back down when he has to and continues plotting to try and achieve what he wants - often resorting to bending or breaking the law.

I do have proof of his forged documents and I will be reporting it to the Police in time. I am strategically planning my plan of attack. I am hitting with things one by one in a steady stream. I have been waiting to do this for a year and have been quietly gathering knowledge and evidence. I understand there is an element of risk here.

My plan is:

1 I reported him to the council - they gave him a deadline to prove he has permission from the other owners etc. He tried to get the Strata Manager to give him an 'open ended' letter from her and cut and paste what he wanted into it - she refused and gave me all the documentation - she is allowed to do that. His deadline runs out with the council on 1st August (he applied for two delays on stupid grounds and got them of course!) then he will be ordered to change his bedroom back to a garage or face penalties. He will of course apply for repeated extensions of time and make all sorts of excuses etc but eventually, unless he pulls a rabbit out of a hat - & we will be watching ever so closely for that as it will be a fake rabbit - he will have to comply with council legislation.

2 I finally learned that we could take him to the Tenancy Tribunal ourselves as owners instead of having to have all the other owners on side (which we have never been able to do because of his "Mr Nice Guy" routine. So that was the Mediation hearing we have just had. I lodged the application months ago but he managed to delay proceedings.

3 The next step is Adjudication where hopefully orders will be made that he stop breaching many, many, many strata laws. He did unbelievable things like remove common lighting on common property and install his own (himself and not by a licensed tradesperson) and have the switches inside his unit so the lighting would only benefit him and his family - the rest of us can trip over and break a leg - he doesn't care - I am most worried about other people hurting themselves and suing us as the Owners' Corporation plus so much more that other people just shake their heads at.

4 As soon as I have enough video evidence, we will take out an Apprehended Violence Order. We saw the Chamber Magistrate and he drafted us a letter to give to the 'P' asking him to leave us alone but of course, it did no good. When we have proof, the 'P' will look silly making a 'counter-claim’ against us as he has no proof and how could he? We don't do anything wrong! Of course he can make things up but where's the proof? I know some people on this forum have had false statements made against them etc. I will be prepared for that. We have a long Police Report with plenty of history and evidence on it.

5 Then after the next Annual General Meeting we have scheduled in September, I should have more written proof that we will never agree to any of the 'P's plans - he needs our votes to pass things relating to common property. I remember when we first met him he said "I need your vote." That may be the only true thing he has said to us.

6 And finally, the last thing we will do is hit him with the fraud issue and the civil issue (we have this on 2 counts) and may have even more stuff by the time we are finished with the other 5 actions above. The only hiccup may be that the 2 people who were involved (the signatures he ‘manufactured’ gave us their statements but they generally want to stop being involved with him and his antics and if they are required to give evidence in a court etc, they may be reluctant (one is moving interstate anyway). They sold their units because of him.

What do you think? Am I being naive in thinking there won't be any serious repercussions from my plan? There's so much history that has been documented in the motions of meetings and the Strata Plan file as well as my own stuff I've gathered so I am able to prove every single accusation I make against him. If anything significant happened to us or our property, it would be so easy to prove he had motive.

The outcome I am hoping for is that he eventually moves out! Do you think he might given the fight we are giving him every step of the way?

Sara

Hiya Sara,

From your letters there's no doubt that you are doing all the right things. You have a plan, you are being patient and you have the law on your side.

"What do you think? Am I being naive in thinking there won't be any serious repercussions from my plan?"

In one word: YES!

I will quote from Hare's 'Without Conscience'.

Page 58.
" Psychopaths are unlikely to spend much time weighing the pros and cons of a course of action or considering the the possible consequences. "I did it because I felt like it," is a common response."

Page 88.

" Although a student of New Age philosophies might shudder at the desecration of sacred principles, much of the psychopath's behaviour and motivation makes sense if we think of him or her as a person completely rooted in the present and unable to resist a good opportunity."

Page 92.

" The violence of psychopath, however, lacks normal emotional 'coloring' and is likely to precipitated by everyday events." and

" The violence of the psychopath frequently occurred during the commission of a crimeor during a drinking bout, OR was motivated by REVENGE or RETRIBUTION."

(italics mine)

You write:

"There's so much history that has been documented in the motions of meetings and the Strata Plan file as well as my own stuff I've gathered so I am able to prove every single accusation I make against him."

As you have already discovered for yourselves, P's are not deterred by "trifles" like legal documents, proof or evidence.

"If anything significant happened to us or our property, it would be so easy to prove he had motive. "

Don't count on it! He has motive, we know that, but he is a clever bloke, who apparently knows how to stay within a hair-breath of the law. Should he decide to do you and your partner harm (or worse), he may well have conned someone else into doing it.

As well, even though he has money at stake in the apt.complex, he may well decide to leave rub and stub just to save his skin. He will not, like a normal person, be deterred by thoughts of losing thousands of dollars that mostly belongs to a morgage company. Bad debts....this won't be the first one. It's all one piece to him if he thinks that his freedom is at stake. He'll leave! He'll go somewhere else and try his luck in another place.

You may think that he'll be deterred by thoughts of having the police or other authorities after him......but you'll be wrong.

"The outcome I am hoping for is that he eventually moves out! Do you think he might given the fight we are giving him every step of the way? "

You have to keep in the forefront of your mind that you are NOT dealing with a normal individual. You cannot accurately predict his respones to stimuli of any kind. Where you, given X, would do Y, simply because it's the sensible thing to do, a P will respond in ways that are highly unpredicable.

So, I side with Ali and Recovery in saying:

PLEASE BE CAREFUL SARA.

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that you can predict what this man will or will not do. You are NOT a P and you will not, no matter what you think, be able to accurately predict what he will do next. You know that you are not invinsible, a P believes that he is. For you and your partner this is VERY serious - to the psychopath it's a game.

Take care,

Nan

Hi Sara

I agree with Nan - P's are unpredictable. Would he do you an injury? Depends whether he got the opportunity and happened to feel like it at the time. They are not governed by ordinary rules. And if there is any way at all of making you the villain of the story he will do so, as you already know.

Will he just push off in the end? He might. I must have 'sucker' written all over my forehead, because after getting out of my ex's clutches, I later went into business with three friends. One of them was charming, intelligent, good at his job, and we all trusted him and made him the manager. He cleaned us out totally money wise, and I'm fairly sure he was also a P. (will refer to him as P2 and my ex as P1 for the rest of this post or it will get confusing.) It took us a longish fight and a lot of nastiness, but eventually we did manage to get him off our backs, although lost nearly all of the money. He turned pretty nasty and it was horrible. But yes, we did get rid P2 eventually. Lots of lawyers etc etc.

Somebody also managed to get P1 to skip the country; I never found out who or how they did it, but he took off in a more or less overnight flit one jump ahead of someone or something. You can imagine how happy I was to have him living six thousand miles away - oh, what a wonderful moment in my life!

Your plan is good and stands a chance of succeeding. But be prepared for any kind of bad or even terrifying behaviour; anything could happen.

Do take care

Hi Ali ... WOW! ... thanks ... Sara

Hi Nan ... I guess it's part of our journey that these people come into our lives ... I can already see postiive things that have come out of dealing with the 'P' in my life ... sadly, there are many negatives too ... thanks so much ... Sara.

Hello Sara,

Yes it's a journey. On a higher consciousness level, you can say that every experience, no matter how negative, carry the the seeds of love within it because it is an opportunity to learn.

How we learn, where we are on our journey, is an individual thing. What we learn today, we can teach tomorrow.

Travel well, Sara,

Nan

Thanks Nan.

I did some heavy duty thinking over the weekend and talked about it all with my partner and I have decided to face the evil before me with my eyes wide open and am willing to suffer the consequences whatever they may be.

I feel compelled to do this. I will heed all warnings given to me here and gather all the good wishes as part of my strength.

I am totally focussed on my goals and will not stop until they are achieved.

The thought I am sending to my 'P' is "BRING IT ON - I AM READY TO FACE ANY CHALLENGE YOU PUT BEFORE ME".

The way I see it, he is at a disadvantage because he is mentally ill. I will not show him cruelty or be mean spirited no matter what he does but I will not back down - ever!.

At the same time, I actually forgive him for all that he does because he does not know better. I even send him and his family love.

In the end, this experience will make me a better person. I will simply follow my quest to live in peace and not have my rights infringed upon.

I am fully engaged in the game/battle/life lesson more than ever.

Thank you all for making me think more deeply about this, consider the consequences, and as a result strengthen my resolve.

Sara

Good luck to you Sara,

It certainly is terrible when you have to endure what you have been through but it seems that you are on the right path. Stay safe and keep good records of everything that happens. A clear logical case will go a long way to uncovering all the twisted lieing that the p has been doing

best wishes

Mark

Thank you Mark ... your comments give me strength & hope.

Dusty,

I'm new to this board. I've thought for a while that there must be something like this on the internet but didn't find this one until recently. I almost couldn't look at any posts the first time around because I felt it would bring back too many memories - some old, some very recent - and drain me further.

I read this post of yours and my jaw dropped because of the similarities in my experience regarding a relative (and her husband!) who demonstrate clear signs of being Ps and in turn the effect it had on my relationship with my mum.

Also, I was curious about the part of your post that reads "until i was well into dealing with ex P and fraud business P?" Are you saying that you encountered Ps in other areas of your life (business and personal) because if so, that is remarkably close to my experience. At least I think it is remarkable but perhaps many people have experienced dealings with multiple Ps. In a way I am relieved that I am not the only one because I thought I had stepped into a nightmare that couldn't possibly be real except for the very real daily reminders there are of these soul destroying encounters. However, I do feel a little sheepish for my relief at the same time because obviously I wouldn't wish those experiences on anyone else except perhaps the Ps themselves (with little guilt I might add!). I hope you see my post and respond. I will check back again from time to time. I'm wary about visiting this site too much because I can't decide yet whether it will be cathartic or make me regress. Perhaps it remains to be seen until after I visit and post some more. I'm inclined to think it will help to communicate with people who have had similar experiences.

Hi Sylvie,

Welcome to the forum.

You write:

"I'm wary about visiting this site too much because I can't decide yet whether it will be cathartic or make me regress."

I have found that writing things down and sharing with people who knows exactly what you are going through is very helpful. Whereas sharing these experieneces with friends who cannot relate to, or understand what you are talking about can make you feel very alone and sometimes much sadder. It's as though the experiences with a P becomes magnified when you cannot share it in a meaningful way.

Friends can understand that you have had an unpleasant relationship experience with a man (or woman), but they don't understand why it has left you feeling like a shell of your former self. They don't understand how the P has manipulated you to the point where you are like a very frightned Alice in upside-down Wonderland. To your friends it sounds like a wild story from a person with an overwroght mind, and of course, that's exactly what it is. Being in any type of relationship with a P will make you feel as though your mind has stopped functioning.

Unfortunately, this can continue long after the P relationship is finished because we don't understand what has happened to us. It wasn't till I found this forum that I started to understand what the P had done and how it affected, and had continued to affect me. Reading about other people's experiences and sharing my own has made a world of difference to me. It was such a relief to know how, what, where and why, that I could feel myself getting better by the day.

It's also true that you can regress. There are days where the P experience seem as if welded to your consciousness and you cannot let it go no matter what you do. Now however, those days are farther aand farther apart.

You are correct that, of course, no one would wish a P experience on any one else. The issue of revenge comes up when the anger at having been used and manipulated into a simpering fool takes over. Make no mistake about it, most of us here feel utterly foolish for having been thus deceived. Feeling foolish can make you do stupid things. It can also make you feel sad and depressed.

So we help and support each other as best we can. It makes a huge difference to communicate with other people with similar experiences. Many people come here, post for a while, realise that they feel better for knowing what really happened and happily, we hope, they are on their way. Some of us continue to answer posts in the hope that we can help others as we ourselves were helped when we found this forum.

Take care,

Nan

Hi Nan,

Thanks for your post - I do believe you're right. Even if the process of reliving these experiences is somewhat painful, I think on balance it could only be helpful to share experiences with others who can relate, who can nod knowingly. In fact it has already been an eye opener to learn that there are others who have encountered several Ps because prior to my learning that, it was difficult to believe that it had happened to me, let alone to others. It seemed like such a weird and unsettling aberration. Surreal. I had thought I was home free when I broke up with the first P (in fact I felt I could fly!) only to realize days later that my new boss exhibited some of the same traits as my ex. It felt like my ex had re-incarnated as my boss, different race, different height, different voice, same deviant ways. Demon love child of Machiavelli and Caligula was now sitting behind a desk in the executive suite. I own the boss experience though, I chose to stay for career-related reasons but came to realize eventually that he was the women hating/harassing/ subordinating P that I suspected from the outset. Of course the embezzlement and other lawbreaking goes with the territory.

I'm sure that anyone who has dealt with these seemingly soul-less individuals knows that conserving ones mental energy becomes a priority which is why I tend to debate the merits of just about anything I do anymore, including posting here.

I have to say that those of you who have recovered from your experiences but still post here to help others are incredibly generous. Since I am still dealing with a sociopathic couple (relatives this time) in my personal life and also the after effects of working with a white collar criminal ( I detest the drama of it all), I feel that when I am finally out of these situations, the last thing I would be able to do would be to have any such involvement with others, even to help. Hopefully I will feel differently somewhere down the line.

At some point during the next couple of weeks, I must take the time to read more posts and also to pose some questions to the board.

Actually just calling them some choice names in cyberspace makes me feel a little better already, Aaaaaaaah! And maybe I still have a sense of humor so that's good to know too.

Appreciate your post and wonderfully apt analogies.

Sylvie.

Hi Sylvie,

Thank you for your post which, in spite of the suspect matter made me laugh when I read that: "Demon love child of Machiavelli and Caligula was now sitting behind a desk in the executive suite." It is wonderfully apt and a lovely turn of phrase. It is very rare that a post in this forum makes me laugh.

Apropos of language, I have just finished re-reading Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice where Elizabeth answers the insupportable Mr. Collins by, “ uniting truth and civility in a few short sentences.”

Truth and civility are but two of the many things that a P is incapable of. I am sorry that you are having such a hard time of it. Please take your time in framing a question that you may want to ask. If you find that it serves you, then just write about your feelings, there's no need to ask questions.

You write:

"....the last thing I would be able to do would be to have any such involvement with others, even to help."

Yes, I know! What guides me is remembering how abjectly insane I felt, even long after I ended the P relationship. I did not know what WAS the matter with me, but I could feel myself slipping into depression without understanding why. I only knew that I felt terribly short tempered, I had no patience with my own folly, let alone anyone else's idiocies. Normally extremely patient with my lovely dog, I was shouting at her and would push her away when she came over for a cuddle. I was out to lunch, which we all know ain't free.

Finding this place, and more importantly the people in it, helped me acknowledge what I had begun to suspect; the man was a psychopath. The more I read, the more AHA experiences I got, and the more I realised that my current state of mind had been artificially induced. Now I could begin to undo the damage. In the course of two or three days, I must have posted six or seven times, and each time, my post was lovingly answered within a very short time. I could barely wait for the response so anxious was I for support and acknowledgement.

It did not take me long to realise that my navel gazing HAD to stop and that by helping others I could help myself. So, in part, it's not a totally selfless act - I am not Mother Theresa (and incidentally, nowhere near as old nor as dead), so take heart!

Be well, Sylvie.

Nan

Hi Nan

That is so true that through helping others we can move on and help ourselves through it. It moves us on from feeling helpless and useless and stupid.

Another thing that has been helping me recently has been in accpeting that I did not have to get involved with the p. I made that decision myself and ignored my intuition (and my mother). Instead of thinking that I was a victim (vulnerable due to my childhood abuse)I was still responsible for myself at the time and having the victim mentality was the major reason I did not boot him out of my life early on. I see now that we choose to keep this mentality rather than move on and be responsible for ourselves no matter what our childhood was like.

I think that it is this feeling of getting in control of our lives that makes the difference in moving on.

Thank you, Mati,

Yes...taking control of our lives makes a big difference. When we decide to take back our lives, we begin to see that we deserve to be loved and cherished for who we are. That we are worthy of respect and esteem from other people. And best of all, we begin to love and respect ourselves, without which there can no loving and respecting others.

You write:

"I see now that we choose to keep this [victim] mentality rather than move on and be responsible for ourselves no matter what our childhood was like." (My insert).

Good for you! Childhood abuse is something that can leave lasting scars on your psyche, and I applaud you for being willing to look at it and deal with it. It's a hard row to hoe. It takes courage and determination to heal and love the child within - to look at her and see her pain and suffering. One thing that really helped me was Alice Miller's words about why fearing what has already happened. I then realised that my unwillingness or inability to care for the child within, was governed by a nameless fear of what I would find. I had already experienced it, so why did I fear it.

But we must all listen to our hearts and move at a pace that our minds can sustain without being damaged.

I believe that on a very profound spiritual level we are responsible for everything that happens to us. BUT....and that's a BIG but, it's not always helpful to be told that we are ultimately respondsible for our own suffering. Take the woman who is battling advanced cancer. Tell her that she bought it on herself by being fearful, angry, hateful or for not loving herself enough, and you have a woman who is going to be in a great deal more pain for having been told that the cancer is her fault.

Suffering is suffering no matter how it is bought about, and 'telling it like it is' is not, I think, always the better part of valour. Kindness and compassion are grossly underrated qualities.

You are right! We must start with ourselves.

Regards,

Nan

PS: From tomorrow, I will be off-line for about a week.

Hi there Nan,

Thanks for your support and concern. I find that I have to hang on to my sense of humor so that I maintain some semblance of my previously fairly upbeat self. Yes, I can see how helping others is probably comforting and some day when I hopefully get through all of this and have had some time to rest and regroup, I think I could see doing that.

My first experience with a P was a long term boyfriend. I'm not going to get into this one too much right now because I've been out of the situation for a while and for the most part I feel that I am over it, even though I know he has a hand in some of what I'm experiencing on another front now. I guess that's why it is said that the destruction from knowing a P can continue for a long time. The good news is that rather than getting married like he was pressuring me to do, I broke up with him. I guess his telling me that he would like to crush my head under the wheels of his car finally drove the point home that he wasn't marriage material and more importantly would NEVER change! When I pictured walking up the aisle to him, instead of any feelings of joy and anticipation I felt only a deep dread. I kept thinking I would feel like a lamb going to the slaughter and that's exactly what I would have been. This wasn't just cold feet, but something much more profound. Something primal. Thanks goodness for the survival instinct that we all have (but sometimes gets drowned out) and also for the stubborness I've always been accused of. Thank you God profusely for making me stubborn. The P thought he had me in the bag, but he learned otherwise. Sometimes even our more negative qualities can serve us well.

While skimming other posts, I noticed people mentioned red roses. Yes, my ex definitely ruined red roses for me. In fact, even while we were dating I started to see them and the incessant stream of stuffed animals (probably too old for those!) as the props of an unctuous charmer. Ick! I'm still okay with chocolates though (as in I eat them at every opportunity), the mini triumph of an unconquerable sweeth tooth over negative associations.

I often think that if I have a daughter, she's going to have a shotgun wielding mum rather than dad - I'll have to be careful about being overprotective.

I'm going to take a nap now. Nothing like talking about Ps to sap your energy but then I also had a big meal so that might have something to do with it.

Bye for now,

Sylvie

Hi Sylvie,

I can relate to many of your feelings both physical and psychological.

I have a migraine coming on, and must go to bed. It's rare, but it happens that the migraine medicine doesn't do the trick.

I am thinking of you and I will write later in the week. I am supposed to go away tomorrow for a few days, but we'll see if the migraine succumbs to sleep.

Take care,

Nan

Nan,

I'll look out for your post then.

Hope you feel better.

Sylvie

Hi Nan

You said:

"One thing that really helped me was Alice Miller's words about why fearing what has already happened. I then realised that my unwillingness or inability to care for the child within, was governed by a nameless fear of what I would find. I had already experienced it, so why did I fear it."

Yes so true and most of our problems are caused by fear I think. One of the reasons I stayed with p was that I was afraid that I could not cope alone due to my ME. Little did I realise that living with him would make that 1.000 times worse. I was also afraid of what people would say about me leaving the marriage so soon. So I ignored my inner voice which also later made me fear to grow old and helpless and stay with p.

I don't know too much about the inner child thing as I have had little counselling nor have I read much self help stuff. I think that I gained a sense of my self worth through my Christian beliefs and reading the Bible. But I know what you mean in saying you were afraid of what you would find if you looked at the inner child. I had shut mine away and any reminder of it brought back turmoil. Thanks for that, I will think about it. I know that I reached a sense of wholeness when I sympathised with the little me inside and accepted her.

Yes so true about listening to our hearts.

No I do not think that we are entirely responsible for our own suffering though more than we admit. Cancer can be caused by environmental assault, out of our control, but how we deal with the cancer is up to us and the mental suffering of it is affected by our attitude. I have always had problems with self pity so to move beyond that was a great step forward for me.

At the moment I am in a small flat totally isolated and have a relapse of ME. No-one is visiting so to prevent becoming demoralised by this, I am thinking that I am in a prison and it is quite reasonable for a prison cell, and that I have no family. When I wake up in a morning I think Wow! no bars on the windows!

"Kindness and compassion are grossly underrated qualities." Agree totally. A pity we often have to suffer before we gain these qualities ourselves.

sylvie

you are so funny! Glad you are here.

Hi Mati,

Thanks - glad to be here among people who can relate.

I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but I tend to stay indoors a lot and have become very reclusive. I think I am cocooning in a way. However, I find when I go out even briefly to the store or something it helps clear my mind and give me some perspective. Reading your post and others it really is saddening to realize all the destruction these creeps cause but the mere fact that we are posting on this board shows that they didn't entirely prevail.

Are you familiar with the Desiderata? I don't know if it has already been posted but I think it might appeal to some.

Take care

Sylvie

DESIDERATA

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love,
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment,
it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Hi sylvie

Thanks for that. I have not seen it for a long time and it is so helpful for me at the moment. I am not a solitary person naturally but perhaps we need spells of it sometimes to build ourselves up as our true selves and not what others expect us to be. You sound very strong.

Mati,

You're welcome. I didn't used to be solitary at all either, quite the contrary. I think you're right though, that we need those pockets of time and space to ourselves.

I was surprised that you think I sound strong. I guess it depends on the context. My confidence and nerves are shot when it comes to business and I struggle with it daily. Having said that, I tell myself I must be fairly strong since I am still standing after dealing with Ps on three fronts. I'm not imagining it or overreacting either - wish I was - I know they are Ps for sure. Once you have met one, they're easy to spot but not always easy to avoid.

Regards

Sylvie

Hi sylvie

When you say they are easy to spot, are you depending on intuition or are there certain signs youi look for? I really hope to avoid getting involved with one again or worse, watch as my children get involved with one.

One thing that stands out with my husband is his eyes, which are very shifty and have that flatness which I have heard is common. One interesting thing is that he took up water colour painting and his work had a certain quality about it not easy to describe. It was sort of bleak and flat.

Hi Mati,

It's been a while and I try and put it out of my memory but what do I look for as a p identification factor

1) as you said the "eyes"

2) the grandiose stories of exploits without any proof

3) lying for self gain and to build up self importance

4) running down of all other people - rarely or never praising anyone else

5) lack of any real person there - difficult to describe but since they don't have any real deep emotions they cannot hold a conversation about deep feelings - just a shallow person which is what I mean by the expression "lack of any real person there"


Has anyone else got any other outward signs to add to the list. I am sure that I have missed some

Mark

Hi Mati,

I think more outward signs and probably some intuition. I should be more careful about saying that they are easy to spot because I don't think every one of them displays all the same traits. I agree with the shifty eyes even though I believe I've encountered a couple who don't seem to do that. The most common traits seem to be:

- pathological lying, seem to enjoy deceiving and gain sense of superiority from it
- lack of conscience
- lack of empathy and shallow affect (don't seem to show much emotion when you would expect it like when their missing wife is found murdered!)
- sexual promiscuity
- lack of nervousness/fear, poor impulse control (I noticed this a lot in the ones I've encountered which is why they seem to engage in fraud and other lawbreaking easily)
- seem to put others down a lot, sneering
- superficially charming, highly manipulative
- long history of antisocial behaviour and behavioural problems (delinquency, fights etc. )often starting in childhood

I noticed my ex sometimes used to look angry and antisocial in pictures even at times when he didn't seem to be beforehand. I thought it was interesting that you said your husband took up watercolor painting because that's not a sensibility I would normally expect in a P. My ex was VERY affectionate and it didn't seem feigned to me or others. Odd.

Regards

Sylvie

Hi Mark

"4) running down of all other people - rarely or never praising anyone else"

Yes, I have never heard this one but it is true concerning my p. Also included are groups of people especially Christians as far as my husband is concerned. Any mention of a criticism of him from someone second-hand brings about the most venemous hatred, which is immediate rather than my own reaction which I assume is normal but I have not asked others about this. The first thing I do is to immediately think 'is it true?'

I would also add the use of charm and flattery until it is clear that the person targeted is not being influenced, then it is the blank out. That is something you have to observe though rather then something to spot early on.


I hope that I can rely on my intuition in future but because I did not heed it in the past I do not have confidence in myself that I will listen in future. I do however take pains to take notice of that nagging feeling that I have so often ignored to my great regret in my matters.

Hi sylvie

Interesting about the photos. Mine did not ever look angry on photos. He seemed to be much more in control of himself to do that and even manipulated his image there and put on a sort of apologetic, anxious look with a sort of nervous smile or more often a blank look that I never saw anywhere else. Whatever it was it was so false (now looking back)Because he wanted to be the victim, he seemed to me to want to record on photographs that he was the 'henpecked husband'. I have sen this same expression in photos of Harold Shipman, and someone else who I thought was a p. I am amazed thinking back now at how contriolled he was in his image to gave to others but at the same time very impulsive in reacting to unexpected things, when the aggression would break out. It showed I think the falseness and acting of his usual presentation, and the effort of that, when the unexpected arose, revealed the tension he was operating under. Does that sound strage or usual? Sometimes I think I am becing paranoid, although it has only been 6 months since I left (22 year marriage).

The impulsiveness concerned other things as well though not just in reactions. It also concerned decisions.

Yers my p acted affectionately but it was without feeling.

Hi Mati

You said "It showed I think the falseness and acting of his usual presentation, and the effort of that, when the unexpected arose, revealed the tension he was operating under. Does that sound strage or usual?"

Usual. I noticed that too very early on - the viciousness of a sudden verbal attack stunned me because it was such a contradication from the charming person he made himself out to be at other times, in fact, just a few minutes before the outburst. It bothered me enough that I decided I wanted out of the relationship (6 months at that time) but what I wasn't prepared for was the hysteria and sob stories that I encountered when I tried to break things off. P was VERY needy. Problem is a lot of women don't know the signs of a sociopath and accordingly are ill-equipped to deal with it since they just don't realize what they are up against.

Like Shipman? Any comparison to him is chilling even if it just demeanor. It's really manipulative that your ex portrayed himself that way. The guy I went out with told people I was controlling and mistreated him (bunch of hooey) - I guess they all sing from the same songsheet. My response was that I must not have treated him badly enough since he was still calling.

I'm glad that you are out of the situation and I hope you don't spend too much time chastizing yourself which is easy to do especially since it's so recent. I wish there were overt physical attributes (horns and a tail perhaps) to warn us off but too bad it doesn't work that way. The P I went out with was affectionate with feeling - that played a big part in keeping me off balance.

Regards

Sylvie

Hi sylvie

Yes it is chilling to compare him to Shipman, but when the case was in the papers, there was a photograph of him with that expression and I remembered how much it was like an old photograph of my husband so I cut them both so that I could see only the heads and I could not believe the similarity when I held them together. The other time was when the Soham, England murders were in the papers, did you read about it? Ian Huntley he is called and that same expression again. It's like 'I'm carrying all of the burdens of the world on my shoulders'. Yet at the same time my p was totally irresposible about everything.

Yes I have had plenty of hysteria and sob stories. And lately there have been plenty of tears and 'I miss you's' I am still in contact due to my two young adult sons still being there, having the wool pulled over there eyes totally and won't have a word said against their father who, and I will bet on it, will be talking about suicide to keep them controlled and confused. He relays to them our conversations, twisted of course to make me to be the bad one.

They cannot understand me breaking contact with their father and I fear that they will break contact with me if I do and then they will have no contact at all with any family and I want to be there to support them when the light goes on if it ever does (does anyone know the likelihood of this?)

I am coping but when I am in contact I notice I start doubting whether he is p because he is putting the charm on since I found out the amount of debt he had got into secretly, and since I obtained the bank statements he had tried to conceal from me, just in time before the joint account was closed. He had been spending all of my disability benefits and the rest of the joint money. He is afraid of who I will tell I think, mainly his family who he has no or little contact with. I have not told them yet what has been happening since I fled my home to go to a womans' refuge.

Yes a pity they do not have horns and tail.

Thanks for that remark about it not being so bad for him. I will use that one.

I think MarkG describes (above) Narcissistic-Psychopath traits, whilst Sylvie25 describes Antisocial-Psychopath traits.

I think the key to avoiding getting suckered in to another abusive relationship, is in understanding where your weaknesses are, and doing something to change that/those predeliction(s) that rendered you vulnerable to abuse in the first place.

For me, I'm attracted to selfish people, as I find attention threatening. Ps and most abusive types only pay enough attention to you to extract whatever it is they are after, usually some form of narcissistic supply or resources; monetary or otherwise, the rest of the time they are thoroughly selfish.

My P thinks the emotionally & psychologically healthy person's need for attention is "high maintenance", so when he dates people who eventually stop being self-less, and assert their healthy need for a normal level of attention, he devalues them and idealises self-less me again.

My solution is to get used to attention, and to require a normal level of attention from prospective partners, in other words, be less self-less.

I am now also very wary of being idealised by anyone... if anyone builds me up, its inevitable that when I don't live up to their projection of me, they will feel cheated and devalue me. So now I am very skeptical of charm and flattery.

Also I now listen out for the names that people address me by. If anyone calls me by a name which is different to that which I wish to be called, I now deliberate whether they are relating to me or are projecting a different identity onto me. That applies to contractions of my name & to "terms of endearment". Eg. doll, babe, angel, etc (ask yourself, are you being treated like a doll, babe or an angel, and what that implies).

The last thing I have realised is to ask someone what they want out of the prospective relationship early on.

I asked after 5 years with my P and was told: "respect and pleasant company". Which makes sense why it took so long to unravel, I am respectful and pleasant company, but I also displayed emotional distress and anger directly; I complain and cry if I am upset, and show direct anger /am not affraid to lose my temper with people if they are abusive towards me, which caused P to devalue me (since he's scared of losing his temper and of his own emotions).

It took me another 12 months to realise that respect and pleasant company (i.e. attention) were narcisstic supplies, and his devaluation of me was his attempt to control these quality and pureness of these supplies, in other words the manifestation of a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Stepford Wives is good analagy as to how P was treating me.

I would be interested to hear of lessons others have learnt about themselves through their interactions with Ps.
KT

**I have edited this post, Di

Hi, just a few comments that I hope I express about one of the few reasons I ever edit a post. I try to move posts to the appropriate thread whenever I have time to keep them on topic. It is nothing personal on my part and is only my effort to categorize by topic for readers and posters.

I don't encourage posts that link to either psychopaths or narcisstic sites. If you find it on your own that is none of my business. I have had a victim forum for many years. That is one of the few policy about posts that I think is better left out.

Feel free to email me if you would like further information about why I have this view.

Also, we have a very large group that only reads, if we could move this conversation back to revenge that would be helpful to our readers. I have set up another thread called Discussion (part 3) for general information. You all share such great information that I am sure your input is helping more people than you can imagine. You can see by the views that many readers look for the General Discussion and read that area in great numbers.

Thanks for being here and I am always availabe by email if anyone has any questions/complaints/comments.

Di

Hi Mati,

The name Ian Huntley sounds vaguely familiar - there seem to be too many of these cases.

It's sad if your ex is manipulating your sons like that - both in terms of what he may do as well as the way he represents you to them. It's really difficult when there are children involved (even adult children), since I think most of them have a difficult time accepting that their parents even have flaws let alone something as profound as being a P. In my (layperson's) view, any attemps to get them to see their father that way would only get their backs up and breed resentment. We all tend to see people through different lenses depending on our individual dealings with them and sometimes it is difficult to see the nuances (or even overt behaviours) in other familial relationships especially if we are in denial about them.

Driving wedges between people seem to be the speciality of Ps and it is easy to inadvertantly play right into their hands in trying to defend oneself and to get other family members to understand and empathize with one's position.

I'm glad that you're coping because it must be a wrenching position to be in. Do you have any access to professional counselling and would your sons be receptive to attending with you? Sometimes it's easier for people to accept things if they hear it from a third party and I think counselling can help work through the issues and may give you some insights into whether your sons would ever be likely to recognize and accept your ex for what he is.

One thing I've learned recently, is that it's okay, in fact advisable, to ask others for help/support in whatever form -it's part of surviving. I tend to be private by nature and always wanted to be self reliant in as many ways as possible. I've come to realize after extended involvement with Ps (and the destruction that has wrought in my professional and personal life), that it would be detrimental for me to continue thinking that way. That is the main reason I sought something like this board. I hope you are asking for and getting the support you need.

Take care,

Sylvie

Di,

Apologies. I meant to just post in the revenge thread long enough to tell Mati to check for my response in the new thread but totally forgot about that in the process. Duh!

It's good idea to keep the thread on topic - I'll have to remember next time.

Rgds,

Sylvie

Hi, no problem, I have been "lax" in my "housekeeping" here. I think that revenge involving children can be a major issue with a break up.

Hi sylvie

I made a mistake in giving my name and have removed it from my post. Would you mind removing it from yours too? Thanks. Just to be on the safe side as p found his way once before on this site once he knew I suspected him of being a p. I will reply to you later.

Mati,

No problem - I've edited my post.


Di,

It's just good that you even have this site let alone maintain it.


Rgds to both,

Sylvie

Hi again,

I have to write this down now because it has increasingly been driving me nuts this past week and sapping my energy in the process. I had mentioned before that I have encountered Ps on three fronts - it nauseates me to even think about it and perhaps because of what these situations might imply about me.

This is the situation I've been referring to:

The problem is with a relative and her husband. I have long known that her husband is extremely antisocial but I was much slower to accept that the relative herself has had behavioural problems for a long time. Looking back though, there were signs all along the way but I guess I was too distracted and possibly in denial to realize that she has a personality disorder but there's no denying it anymore.

This couple has been psychologically harassing me by spreading malicious rumors all over the community that I belong to, also to our relatives and friends of mine, including lies about my relationship with the P (he's a great guy, I mistreated him!). I found out inadvertantly that this relative went to Ps house behind my back and tried to recruit him and his family into an illegal investment scheme. These schemes (which seem to attract the dregs of society)depend on recruiting as many people as possible and P has a big extended family and know many people in the community. I believe that their supporting the P is in part related to that and also part of their campaign of character assassination.

There have also been incidents of vandalism/minor property damage by this relative - I didn't realize it was her initially, but eventually it became clear that it was.

Given that she has tried to interfere with and undermine every area of my life, I suspected that she would try to interfere with my professional life as well. It turns out I was right since a recent conversation (argument) with her revealed that she might have contacted a former employer.

While some people have come to the conclusion that it is jealousy, there are always those who glom onto gossip/slander and do their part to spread it around.

This has all been going on for longer than I care to admit and there are many reason why I haven't dealt with it yet. I didn't used to like getting dragged into the gutter but I've come to the conclusion that the only way to deal with Ps is on their terms. Also, if I get the police involved it could have negative implications for other relatives who are completely innocent (both very young and old) and that really bothers me. Having said that, if I ignore this situation any longer it would be at my own peril. I don't intend to continue to live a victimized life and I've no doubt that it will continue in different forms unless I make an attempt to stop it. There has to be a response. I have come to a decision as to what to do but I am curious how others would handle it.

I am actually feisty by nature but I think since I'm fairly soft spoken and come across like I don't want to be dragged into it that they have assumed that it will go on indefinitely. It won't. When the gloves come off they'll know it.

The other situation I referred to involves white collar criminal activity by people I worked with. I don't want to get into the details of that one right now because I'm not sure where it is heading. I do know that it has left my career in ruins with all the attendant stresses that brings.

The only good thing that comes out of dealings with Ps is that I think it gives me a much better appreciation of the good and normal people I know. Someone mentioned something about "getting suckered into these abusive relationships". I only accept that assertion up to a point. Obviously in a romantic relationship and sometimes in business dealings there probably is an element of getting suckered in. However when the motivation is to destroy someone because of jealousy, I don't think the "suckered in" part applies. Also, I think it's important to be able to talk about jealousy openly without being coy about it and hopefully without people simplistically concluding that it is an attempt at self flattery. There are some who are competitive in positive ways, by setting goals and going after them. Others seek to undermine and destroy to assuage their insecurities and to gain advantage.

I'll have to continue with this at some later time.

Regards

Sylvie

Sylvie,

I'm in a rush, but I feel that I must repsond to this. You write:

"I had mentioned before that I have encountered Ps on three fronts - it nauseates me to even think about it and perhaps because of what these situations might imply about me. "

Please realise that, like you, most of us here are educated, intelligent and accomplished people. We have all of us, in various ways, been victimized by a P or a P-like person. Certainly, I would have thought that I was immune to the snake-like charm and childish manipulations of a P. But I fell for it, hook, line and sinker. Four years of it too!

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that because it happened to you, your life or your being is forfeit. When you come up for air, you will know that none of it, NONE OF IT, was or is your fault.

Even though I am very aware how easy it is to think that if only....I also know that Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda died a long time ago, and that they are of use at all.

So, hold on to your sense of self. Look to the future and PLEASE stop harrassing yourself.

We are all in the same boat!

Nan

Hi Nan,

Appreciate your post. Your analogy about coming up for air resonates with me. That's exactly what it feels like, trying to keep one's head above water.

On the one hand I feel that anyone can encounter and be victimized by a P, that's what they do. So I don't think I spend a lot of time on the coulda, woulda, shoulda part in terms of what different choices I could have made since I know that's pointless and unconstructive. I've got some fairly critical, self righteous relatives who talk about personal failures, "I can't help it if my personality is like that (as in weak) etc. While I silently tell them to shove off, I've probably internalized some of it and shouldn't. I've noticed on other posts that it's a common experience for relatives to react that way.

The part that I am still unclear about is that there seem to be different schools of thought (both on this board and beyond) about why some people get victimized. Some people feel that it is because of weaknesses in one's personality that Ps are drawn to certain people and others seem to fall more on the side that (like you said) it's not through any fault of my own. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. I suppose also it is possible to have weaknesses in one's personality but still not be at fault as such. Maybe, that's the healthiest way to look at it. I just want to figure out if I and others need to develop a more scaly exterior going forward and nip these things in the bud before they spin out of control.

You're right that I should look to the future and to some extent I do, I know I try. But one P situation is ongoing and therefore distracting (I know that's partly the intent) and the effects of the other continue. I don't care less about the P that I dated, that one is history. I dodged a bullet on that one.

I saw your other post and will respond to it later today or tomorrow. You are very perceptive.

Sylvie

Hi sylvie

Yes you are right and I have been playing into p's hands by trying to get my sons to empathise with me, and they will not even see it as grossly unfair that even though their father walked into the home I had set up on my own, at the start of the marriage and did not contribute anything to it, yet even though it was he who said he wanted the marriage to end (and for us to continue to live in the same house, I pressume so that he could torture me all the more)I had to be the one to leave being in a severely distraught state, and no wanting the boys witness terrible arguments with p doing hysterics. He said he was looking for somewhere but guess what he failed. Also the boys had been alienated from me so much by then that they chose to live with him, and have the fridge filled with beer and allowed to do what they wanted of course.

I have read some things in the internet on parental alienation, and the prognosis is not good apparently. The only chance is if the children are away from the alienating parent.

I wonder whether it is worth putting myself through agony trying to save the relationships with them when they abuse me so much now and are so hard and cold towards me. I do not think they will agree to counselling, but thanks for your advice and yes I think I could do with help. I am getting support from my dughter who was to a previous marriage and she was alienated from me but we have been reconciled (so it does happen sometimes, but she is not his child and he only had 5 years with her) since she realised what was going on. She tells me that one of the things p did when she was 14 was he hid from me, a few letters from her school that said she was truanting. p told her that he would not tell me (and he was not her parent so had no right to make this decision) because he said I would be very angry and he had by then made out that he was protecting her from me, even though she was 10 when I met him and she and me had a good relationship. So he let her continue to put herself in danger by doing nothing abiout her truanting and also did not care about her education. Just so that he would be in a good light and me in a bad one.

But thanks sylvie, I will try to get more support.

Hi sylvie

Just reading through the problems you are having makes me think that it is not worth fighting what you are up against and I think I would leave the area. From what I have been finding out about p's, they are too dangerous to come up against. I see now that had I got out of the way when I first left home, and had no contact, then the relationship with my sons would not have been as bad as it is now because p has used the contact I have had with him and the boys to further destroy the relationship with them despite me working hard to improve it.

For the immediate future, I think I would get the police involved though if it was me and the negative implications for others are the responsibility of the purpetrators not you. Bullying just gets worse if you do nothing IMO. But I realise it is a hard decision that only you can make knowing the repercussions.

Hi Sylvie,

On the question of whether we are at fault for getting hooked unto a P, there are, just as you mention, different schools of thought.

As far as I am concerned, we are who we are by virtue of nature and nurture. Our eyes are blue or brown, our skin is light or dark, we are tall or short and no one is going to say anything other than that is nature, i.e., genetics. By virtue of nature AND nurture some of us are soft spoken and gentle, others loud and temperamental and so on. Some of us are very nurturing with other people while some of us are more predisposed to minding our own business.

I do not think that it need be a negative personaility trait that attacts a P. For example, strong, very capable and nurturing women can be just the thing to attact a needy P. Being strong, capable and nurturing is not a negative characteristic. Being a well-to-do business woman can also be an attractive trait for a P who is out to get a little economic freedom on such a woman's tails.

As you know yourself, a P can be a chameleon, who knows just how to appeal to whatever characterics we have. A P is very good at reading other people and honing on on the one aspect where a person is in need of support, love and care.

We all need support, love and care, and some of us manage to get the right amount of erach from work and family, but most of us are lacking in those departments. It need not be something that bother us or make our lives difficult in any way, it may simply be that we know that a little more of those things would fall on a dry spot and when it is offered to us by a seemingly caring, intelligent, attractive ,supportive and accomplished person, why would we say, 'No thanks!'. It's almost too good to be true and such nice men don't grow on trees.


You write:

"I just want to figure out if I and others need to develop a more scaly exterior going forward and nip these things in the bud before they spin out of control. "

Yes, I think we would wise to figure out what in our make-up that attracted a P in the first place. Perhaps, we need to be tougher in certain areas. The strong and capable need to realise that they cannot save the world and those of us who are aware that we are (were) lacking love and support, can learn to be more realistic about where such can be found without compromising the Self.

If everyone was like H.H. Dalai Lama, there would be no need for such an enlightened being to exist - he would be superflourous.

As far as I understand the Dalai Lama, his message is that we must practice compassion - and what better place to start than with our Selves.

Take care,

Nan

Rick1 started this thread to discuss ideas/etc. of revenge against Psychopaths. Please let's return to the topic as I think it must be an idea that runs through the mind of any victim = how to get revenge and if it is worth it or dangerous.

In reply to:

---

rick b1

07/29/03 03:10 PM

Many of us have posted concerning the cycles that we experience in dealing/having dealt with a P in our lives.
Confusion, depression, guilt, adulation, clarity. I sometimes find myself cycling in another direction...revenge. I think about creating
a situation or setting something up in my P's life to get back in some way. Mostly it involves hitting at a place that will really have some impact (if that is even possible) but always, always in a manner that could not be connected directly to me. I'm curious if anyone else finds themselves fantasizing in this way as well and if they would care to share what the payback might involve. Of course, in dealing with a P a setback really isn't that at all...for too long at least. A true P would just pick himself/herself up and move on to the next situation. In that way they truly are like the characters in the Terminator movies.

---

Thanks,

Di

Maybe a thread of ideas of why people think Psychopaths get attracted to victims would be in order?

Hi Mati and Nan,

I haven't had much of a chance to respond to your posts before this. Nothing like dealing with P situations to keep one busy. I am going to respond on the General Discussion thread since I don't think it's about revenge per se, but more just about addressing the situation.

Regards,
Sylvie

Hi Mati

Just came accross one of your earlier posts and thought how uncannily your description of your P in photos reminded me of my ex. He too would look apologetic (the unassuming victim) or nervous even shifty on occasions. But just as the mask slipped and my time was up i caught the real him on video - and it scared me as he was sober and venemous. It was a redflag I tried to ignore at the time.

I hope you do have the strength to keep fighting for your sons, with God's help you will get through. I don't know why some have to suffer so much - but there must be a plan for us all.

Best of luck

Recovery

recovery

Thank you for that. I find a real need to have it frequently confirmed to me that p IS a p at the moment when I am forced into communication due to my sons and my refusal to give up on them. A few have advised me to walk away and leave them to it, they not being children now, and after they have treat me so badly but I tried and I cannot do it. I cannot cope with the grief and besides, although p is more powerful than me, he is not more powerful than my God.

I have been able to be calm and reasonable with them recently. One of my boys says that he does not know who to believe so he has decided not to believe either of us. I said that it is a pity because he will likely miss the truth and if I was a dishonest person then I would have had his father sectioned by putting on a scene and calling the agency instead of having to leave my home (he has been on the mental health team as he acts out psychosis to stay sick) I also was able to catch him in a lie to my son as p has talked about us getting back together but told our sons there was no way he would go back to me. I had a breakthrough as I think my son believed me this time and is mad his father lied.

I hope that I am doing the right thing. I know that if the boys stop alienating me so much then p will spring into more action and the boys will suffer by being torn more. A bit of hope is that my son says that he wants to live with just his brother and with neither of his parents. Hopefully any comeback from p will reinforce this decision. He will probably put on the suicide act to keep them with hinm though.

Interesting to hear about the photo's. Some other ones have a sort of hangdog expression too. Mine kept up some of the mask for a long time, and I did not see the venemon until he knew I knew. I have managed to cool that now though and he has replaced the mask somewhat as he thinks that he has managed to convince me he is not p. At least he thinks he is letting me think this.

I will not go on forever though. I just want my boys to get fed up with him then I can break contact with p hopefully when I have got onto a better standing with them.

love
Mati