Daath,

You wrote:

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Yes, I've read that one. But, like WhiteKnight said farther below, Hare had a very narrow field of study... And it's hard to say what a particular psychopath might have become if his life had been different, don't you agree? So this is an assumption to be careful with, one of the reasons I cannot consummately agree with Mr. Hare.
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I think that until we have more information from those like Hare we have to weigh their research pretty heavily. If you know of other solid research that supports an opposing point of view, I would really like to see it.

You also wrote:

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I think one of the most fundamentally tragic facts about psychopathy is that a Psychopath is often very well aware that he lacks... something, at least intellectually aware. He doesn't know what it is, and he doesn't usually think about it, but in those rare moments of introspection he may notice that something is amiss. Even the most self-absorbed character sooner or later realizes that all his relationships fail spectacularly...
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Are you kidding me here? Is this a supposition or are you basing this on anything concrete? It really sounds more like the type of wishful thinking I would fall into repeatedly while trying to make sense of all of the senseless abuse I was undergoing at the hands of one of these "introspective" beasts.

I never, ever saw any evidence of this in all the years I was raised by a P, nor all the years (over a decade) I was involved with one. I even had many discussions with my ex-P about this very subject - his many failed relationships - to see if he could ever see any connection with his behaviors. What I was left with after many long heart-to-hearts is yes he is aware that there is something about his behaviors that somehow contribute to the failure of the relationships - he just doesn't care what they are.

To him (and I strongly suspect this is typical of all P's - the literature supports it), he identifies himself as the perfect Mr. Nice Guy, living the perfect life. And all the manipulativeness, the sadistic abuse, the conning of myself and others, all the self-destructive pathological lying, all the behaviors that define him, he is entitled to because he wants what he wants and no one and no thing should get in his way of it. Period. Ultimately, he believed if a relationship failed it was because those f*ing b*tches were to blame because they took from him something he wanted - them selves.

Relationship has no meaning to a P. They are incapable of grasping what that is. It bewilders them and they don't spend time dwelling on it. And this is from direct statements from my ex-P, from direct observation, and from years of gently and repeatedly prying at the question with him by me.

There really is nothing there.

The day you see a P being remorseful for anything he has done, or attempting to change his behavior to support someone else, you will know you are NOT truly dealing with a P.

Diane1969

Hi Diane

The "avoidant" issue you mentioned could be related to RAD -Reactive Attachment Disorder which breaks down into many categories such as avoidant or oppositional etc. From what I have researched RAD and psychopathy are one and the same. Check out the checklists!
If you want more info on RAD just let me know and I'll pass over all my stuff.

Regards
Jan

Jan,

Yes, please. I would love it if you would point me to that information as well.

btw, I haven't shared everything about my ex-P, but there are reasons why I believe he is a P and not just suffering from reactive attachment issues. After the holidays, I may go into that.

Diane1969

Hi Diane

As soon asthe holiday is over I will collate my info and post it in some kind of sequence so I don't bog you down with too much in one go.

Regards
Jan

Hi Diane, Jan has been responsible for bringing this interesting topic to the forum and our resident RAD expert but there is also some info here at the forum:

Family Section

JAM,

Ok, I'm finally (tardily) getting around to the rest of my response.

"suffer emotional pain" "Deep wish to be loved and cared for" and "genuinely saddened" are all directly contradictory to the essence of psychopathy - flattened emotional response, an inability to empathise and no conscience.

I guess the inherent difficulty with these discussions is that I suspect many posters here don't really know whether the people we have encountered are CLINICAL psychopaths or where exactly they fall on the scale but we use the term psychopath or P for convenience.

As long as one believes in the validity of Hare's scale (and based on your posts it seems that you do), surely it then follows that it is possible for psychopathic personalities lower down on the scale to exhibit qualities that a clinical psychopath would not be capable of. If there weren't at least some differences between the characteristics that these individuals exhibit then we probably wouldn't need a scale in the first place. I acknowledge though, that you seem to differentiate in places.

I for one, really don't think its advisable to lump all these P personalities together and presume them to not be able to emote at all etc. because I think that doesn't necessarily represent our individual experiences. Certainly there are commonalities (lack of empathy, ruthlessness, pathological lying etc. iin their behaviours) IMO, the risk in marginalizing them is that women (or men) in these relationships often tend to look for positives to grab on to and if they believe that these signs indicate that the individuals they've encountered must not be psychopathic they may not realize the damage that they can still do. As long as someone is a pathological liar, ruthless, etc. they need not be a full-blown P to be able to wreak havoc and just because they show flashes of emotion, suffering, etc. does not make them keepers.

if you think a P is emoting, its because that's what he wants you to think. A mimickry of emotional affect does not mean that there is anything going on under the surface. The purpose of the smile on the face of the tiger or crocodile tears is to gull you into a state where you can be... consumed.

I'm confident enough in what I witnessed that I believe if I lined up 50 people they would see what I did, that it was genuine. However, in the whole context of the relationship, it didn't matter. All it showed was that some of these psychopathic personalities who are perhaps lower down on the scale are conflicted but cannot overcome their undesirable, antisocial characteristics.

That is why I feel that Maartens may well have a point. While Hare may be a leading researcher of psychopathy, I for one prefer to look at a range of opinions when it comes to a topic as broad and complex as psychopathy. Having said that I don't consider myself as well read on the subject as other posters - most of my knowledge of them is anecdotal.

Sylvie

I think my P loved all the things I was doing for her. I think she loved me like she loves her brand new car. Looking back at it all, I was more like a trophy to her.

Love is a measure of the presence of the person you love resonating within you. That takes empathy.

What psychopaths feel is lust, just as a hungry man lusts after a nice juicy steak he is about to devour - the juicier the steak, the more he lusts for it.

That is in no way comparable to love that makes you willing to sacrifice for another, to work towards your loved one's happiness as well as your own, or to work to build something together that is foundational.

Psychopaths can not love. They are empty inside - bathtubs with no stopper in them.

They are mimics.

Diane1969

Hey all... I just wanted to add that I was in denial for a long time and I thought for sure I was different and somehow special. I thought that because I was the only one of his victims that he doted on and spent time and money on, that he must have loved me. WRONG!!! I was just the last victim before he went overboard with his credit card fraud and forgery...he got so wrapped up in the idea of stealing other peoples money and spending it onme that he couldnt stop himself. He bought his personality...like I said in my other blog, he was a body snatcher and didnt have a personality of his own so he created one and being the "Doting Loving Spoiling Minister" was who he chose to pretend to be. All his family kept saying well you must be doing something right he is sprung girl...Nobody had seen his personality flaw manifest itself in such a way. Just goes to show you what type of "Religion" it was...a knockoff. The church was found to be a cult and the only members were family members willing to do wrong with him. He never loved me and I think if anything he loathed me, I was Picture perfect and he always said he felt sorry for me. He is in prison now and I am so glad because if I told you the scale of damage he has done to me and everybody he stole from youd want to hunt him down yourself and kick his ass.
Please dont kid yourself sweetheart...it was never love only lust at best form. Take time to heal mend and reach victory, it all can be done I believe you just have to put your trust in God and not so much people. Good Luck and God Bless you all

Psychopath's are incapable of loving. At least I think mine was. No way he ever loved me and could destroy my life and walk away like he did nothing wrong. He's mad at me for some sick reason only known to a psychopath.