Writer1

you have my sympathy for the duplicity that your P appears to display.

I am not going trying to justify duplicity in any shape or form. However I think through observation and experience I can explain it.

I have experimented with duplicity (having simultaneous relationships) as a strategy for mitigating abandonment pain.

When I was young I had an affair with a married man for a couple of years. He was in love with me and I was quite dependent but never in love with him. Despite all this I realised that such affairs don't go anywhere, and started a relationship with somone else. My married lover was beside himself, and the affair ended, although we remain very close friends to this day.

The next time I found myself involved with another magnetic yet unavailable individual, I was wary that that relationship would be difficult for me to leave, and I simmultaneously initiated a relatationship with my P.

P never knew about the affair I was having, but my lover was aware of my relationship with P (since we were having a truly clandestine affair, he could hardly argue about me having a formal relationship agenda as he had) and despite the taxing physical demands of conducting two brand new relationships at the same time, all went well whilst both these situations remained "stable".

My theory is that because I had two relationships on the go, it stopped me from becoming too wrapped up with either of them (which appears to be the cause of the death of all my romances), and as a result both fell very passionately in love with me.

The lover left his girlfriend of 12 years, and subsequently asked me to marry him on a couple of occasions. Once for a fleeting second, I made a decision to leave P for this guy, but before I could disengage myself from P, the lover backtracked, he still appeared to be justifying a relationship with his long term girlfriend and wouldn't let her go. And I revised my decision to disengage P.

My lover eventually broke off our relationship as he cited that my intimate aloofness and bed-hopping ability were very "male" characteristics, unstomachable in his mind and therefore he just couldn't accept them. The pain of this abandonment was indeed cushioned in the arms of my blissfully in love and entirely emotionally oblivious P (NB since he is so untuned to what is going on in me, he totally missed the huge emotional distress I was under at the time).

Within a couple of months my lover MARRIED his girlfriend behind my back!!! We have also remained close friends and he still solicits me, in all seriousness, to marry him.

In the interim I settled down into monogamy with P and soon brought up the issue of us moving in together. The relationship between me and P limped along for another couple of years, but we continued to fight about the degree of intimacy between the two of us. I want intimacy and he doesn't want any.

The bottom line to all of this is, it appears that I make a better girlfriend / partner when I have my affections split than when I have my affections focused on one individual.

I'm as abhored as the next person at the thought of someone I truly love sharing me with anyone else, and at the point that I am in a monogamous relationship and messing it up because I'm too wrapped up in that person, having affairs doesn't even cross my mind.

I suspect though if I wasn't rendered such a mental mess by intimacy, and I could get away with it, duplicity might be the only way I'm able to remain stable enough to be a viable & desirable partner.

So it does make sense in some cases, to have an affair in order to keep yourself balanced and so keep the person you love in your life, if you really love them and can't bear to lose them. The only reason against simultaneous relationships is morality, which has nothing to do with love.

As I said, I'm not trying to morally justify it. But there are rational explanations to apparent duplicity, and they don't necesarily constitute the other person not loving you. That is why some cultures around the world don't bat an eyelid at affairs. The French have a very different attitude to it for example.

I hope this sheds some light on things for you Writer1. Personally I don't think it changes anything, whether he loves you or not, he cheated on you and you don't appear to find that behaviour acceptable in that that was not the type of relationship you had both committed to. Its up to you if you put up with it thereafter, whether he loved you or not is surely no longer relevant?

Kind regards

K.T.

I don't believe that a man that is consistently a two timer is necessarily a psycopath. There are plenty of cultures in which two timing is virtually institutionalized. This seems to me a different type of difficulty since the man may indeed love or care for more than one woman, just be unwilling to be faithful. The capacity to care or more precisely have feelings of regard for an individual, is something a psychopath lacks completely.

Don Juanism or being a Casanova may be some other disorder other than psychopathy. Of course, it is abusive if you are being deceived, therefore most women may choose to end such a relationship.

My psychopath simply did not care for my well being at any time that I knew him. Only his. He only pretended to love me. I don't think he felt anything other than feelings towards himself. He confirmed towards the end of the relationship that he had few feeligns for others.

However how they feel internally is so foreign to us that it is impossible not to slip and imbue behavior that looks like love with the label love, but it is not.

Algaringo

Algarino

I agree with all you have said - a P has no concept of love - only of self and this is totally separate from the run of the mill adulterer.

Best wishes

Recovery

I agree that "run of the mill" adultery is not a prerequisite for being a psychopath. However, when a person systematically cheats on several people at once - insists on monogamy with all of his targets and lies to each of them - it seems like a good indicator that the person might be a psychopath.

I believe the "run of the mill" adulterer would have enough guilt/excitement trying to keep one affair under wraps. The emotional toll on a "normal" adulterer would make it difficult to sustain multiple relationships. I believe the P doesn't have such emotional constraints and can therefore use his energy more efficiently and keep many women going at the same time. And while the "normal" adulterer usually wants to keep the affair quiet, the P will often play the women off of each other.

This may fall under the category of NPD - but with my P there wasn't any remorse. When I confronted him about his "secret world", he actually showed me evidence of the many women he was seeing and said I shouldn't be upset - I should just compete harder. It was all a game for him. I don't believe he had real feelings for any of us (other than jealousy when somebody "cheated" on him).

Hi Lynnie

I agree and sympathise with you and your experience - I think you are right in the P classification. By run of the mill I mean the ones who have affairs for the sake of it, for fun, think they love more tahn one etc but have a conscience too. Still not nice for the partner but it is way off being as cruel as the scanario we have both experienced with the Ps.

Recovery

Lynnie,

Yes, I would like to hear from other members if their P's insisted on monogamy. Mine did.....and seemed to be overly
concerned as to how I was connected with other people. "How
do you know that person? How did you meet?" were frequent questions. My P couldn't fathom my dating other people, much less an open relationship....Ha! I guess those rules didn't apply to my P!

Rick

I wish I could really understand what is going on in the P mind. We can all conjecture, but we never really know. And this is what allows us to project whatever we need to see.

My P made contact again (after a couple months of silence). He "is healing now and wants to apologize". I did not respond, but sit here questioning his motivation. Is he bored and needs fresh blood? Is there a part of him that feels remorse for the awful things he said and did? Is he trying to re-adjust the mask for some reason? Or is he testing the waters to see if he can still control me?

I don't believe that he is healing, but I do think he needs to apologize. And then I wonder if I AM dealing with a person with no conscience, or just an extremely messed up jerk.

I always felt there were two distinct personalities - good P and bad P - good P was always worried about self, but had the ability to say and do the socially appropriate thing. He was fun, exciting, and often seemed "loving". Bad P was a textbook P. He lied, cheated, was aggressive, said cruel things, rationalized his P behavior and admitted that he never felt remorse. I guess good P was the mask and bad P was the demon behind the mask.

But why does he need to contact me? And (more importantly) why do I waste time wondering about his motivation?

wow, so many amazing insights you people have and much food for thought.
i just recently started to key in to the fact that my boyfriend (ex if i remain steadfast!) might fit into the catagory of P, or at least some form of anti social behaviour disorder. after being with him for 4 years, the last 3 in steadily increasing confusion, i have realized that the more information i gathered about him the more confused i became. is information not geared to make you more knowledgable and enlightened? with the p, this a qualified no. it's so very hard to "figure out" this complex person. he displays classic symptoms of a passive/aggressive, a narcissist, a p, and a river in egypt!! however, with every classic symptom of whatever disorder he's been tagged with, there is a "but he appears to have an opposite trait to that". i think the key word with a P, is the word "appears".
the first 6 months of our relationship he was attentive, talkative, charming, seemingly conscious, sensitive, compassionate and considerate. slowly he replaced those traits with opposite ones. inattentive, withdrawn and silent, in denial, insensitive, discompassionate and inconsiderate. not always, but the scales weighed heavily to the negative. he feigned forgetfullness and innocence and not paying attention, when i know that all along he must be paying very rapt and sharp attention to my signals because he was capable of being very present in the beginning. he acted like an innocent victim of my frustrated moods...never taking any accountability for his part in conflict between us. the problems were always MY problems that were destructive to the relationship. he was always the victim, never a player.
he wanted the relationship on HIS terms. he wanted all the priveledges of a "marriage" and none of the duties or responsibilities. he wanted to be a single married man. he invalidated my feelings as "my issues" and my screwed up perceptions. he refused to deal with me, by total withdrawal, and then when i got frustrated for feeling like a ghost and being completely ignored, he could point his finger at me and call me angry and crazy. he always came up smelling like a rose. oh, but the other side of it was the aggression. his m.o. was withdraw or attack. if i pushed his buttons, by exposing a truth about him, he would fly into a rage and hit me or do something humiliating like pour a drink over my head, or throw me out the door in the middle of winter barefoot! it was either a complete lack of response or an outrageous over response. wanting control while being priveledged, on his part, to be out of control. i wasn't allowed the same safety net. in the end, the owness was on me to "come from a place of love, not anger" as he put it. anger? who was wailing on who? he felt that if i "took a tone" with him, then that was equal in hurting him as slapping me across the face, or by total withdrawal....like i didn't even exist.
this person can see the faults in others no problem, but can never see anything he does as wrong or needing to be accounted for. he has exacted such a toll....financially, emotionally, physically and mentally. looking at pictures of us in the beginning and recently...i look much older and weary after my time with him! and i have always tried to figure him out, and tried to figure out what is wrong with me that i attracted him to me! what is the hook? why did i stay and remain so attached in love with him? why did i give all my power and energy to a man that is at once hyper controlling and yet removed?
i look back on the beautiful memories (yes there are a few!) and i feel like it was all such an illusion. the illusion of a caring, gentle, insightful, wonder of a human being. is it smoke and mirrors with the P? it was like he had a spell on me. the many times we "broke up" he would lure me back in and then slide sideways again. always the same pattern. he was on his best behaviour for a very short time and then back to all the old crap. for some reason, even with all his obvious flaws that we all (myself, our friends, and family) see, he has the ability to have us all forgive him and give him yet another chance. he has some magnetic power it seems. there is something....about....him. he garners compassion and we all want him back in our lives. the odd one who doesn't fall for his game (my one son for example) he notes and harbours a passive resentment for. but his resentments are always justified in his mind...it's always the other person who is "off".
i suppose he represented a challenge for me. i never really "had him" and was always on the hunt for his adoration and intimacy. he did display adoration and intimacy many times, don't get me wrong, but they were always at his convenience and when they weren't really "needed" by me at the time he was giving it out. as soon as i "needed" his expression of love and intimacy and tenderness, he refused it. this was such a challenge, and kept me in the hunt. at least i was never bored, oh god forbid. lol.
i am still in danger of being lured back in by him, but i know it's a dead end street and i've bashed my head against his walls for so long, i know it's never going to change. i thought i was "special" enough to propel him into really loving me fully and being someone who i guess he is not capable of being. it's hard for me to admit...i am not that special!
so does the P really love you? well, i've asked that one so many times. they appear to, and then their actions and energetics totally bely that and then you say, "well he loves me to the best of his ability, or he loves me as much as he's capable of, or he loves me in his own way..." they have danced the dance of intimacy but it is illusionary. the thing is, i think they actually believe they DO love you, and that your needs are too great and out of proportion. they are not conscious of themselves in any way. they are very intelligent also. well mine is, and i've been hooked into the belief of "how can he be so intelligent and yet so unconscious of his behaviours"? it's ultimate duplicity and duality. light and shadow, but the shadow is enormous. the light can be too, that is the confusion. like i said before though, look at the balance of the scales. these people get you doubting yourself, and they are killers of your intuition.
if you get unhooked from a P, spend time in healing. you are vulnerable and have really been knocked off your centre. we are susceptible to them i think, and now you must really pay attention to any and all flags. exit at the yellow one....do not pass go!

It is VERY important to remember when dealing with a P that they are cyclical in everything that they do. They throw out some appealing crumb (remorse, concern, interest), seduce us by turning on the charm and pushing all of the correct buttons/saying all of the right things. And then when they know that they "have us" throw us out again and again and again. Don't fall for their smokescreen. IT IS ALL A GAME TO THEM.

And, for some reason, if you do find yourself sitting down to talk to your P don't let him/her get away with anything. If the P wants to appologize as him why he feels that way. What it means to him. How it made him feel to do the things he did to you. Keep pressuring him and asking him questions. He'll deflect you each and every time. Still, though, my advice to you would be to let sleeping P's be !!!!!!

Rick

Scarlet.

Well put.
" they have danced the dance of intimacy but it is illusionary."
Absolutely. The thing is, regardless of how intelligent
they may be the P has absolutely no idea that he/she is
engaging in this.
"....it's ultimate duplicity and duality. light and shadow, but the shadow is enormous. the light can be too, that is the confusion. like i said before though, look at the balance of the scales. these people get you doubting yourself, and they are killers of your intuition. "
I am an extremely intuitive person and I not only scare myself...but others as well. The funny thing was that around my P my intuition was put on hold. I couldn't get a sense of what was going on and that gave me the feeling that something was clearly "not right." I couldn't put my finger on it. I even talked about it, many times, to my therapist and to my friends. So, perhaps this is another red flag for us all.

Rick