i ask anyone who wants to share.

do any of you believe that your particular P at any time truly loved you...even for a brief time?

perhaps i am way out, but i do believe mine actually did.(in his own way) i believe he was caught up in the 'chemical rush' of having 'fallen in love' as i was. i do however also believe his original intent was to quietly try to sexually seduce me, the happily married woman. i do not think he ever thought he could or would fall in love.

Dusty.

As you surely know, the Psychopath loves himself/herself and only themselves. They try as much as they can getting
you in their claws, so they can manipulate you to think that he/she loves you over all in the world.
The word "LOVE" means only me and no one else for them.
They use it because they want your acknowledgement.
I don`t believe in love from a Psychopath.

Regards Lisleby.

Dusty,

the Ps must have some motivation in seeking out our company, not all of them seek out relationships because they want to torment people (although I acknowledge that some appear to).

It is my experience that some of them lack a requirement for intimacy (in its entirety), although have a requirement to be close to someone attractive so that they can bask in the reflection off the arm-candy. I do believe that they fall in love with the prospect that the latest conquest will potentially fill the gapping hole that is their missing self-esteem. Of course nobody can fill this gap, and they eventually resent the conquest for falling short of their potential to fill the hole in their self-esteem, and further for having attempted intimacy with them, hence the blame / criticism stage is inititated. Those Ps who have abandonment issues stay, and these relationships escalate into the nightmares that are some of those stories we read in the "My Story" threads, those who don't have abandonment phobia, check out without saying goodbye, and more often than not, with your car / life savings / best friend, etc.

I think that those of us left with the scars that are the aftermath, find it very difficult to fully realise that they had no requirement for intimacy in the first instance, and it is our requirement for intimacy that hounded them into behaving the way they did, and further keeps us hanging on for that shred of acknowledgement, that will make us feel better.

When you accept that they had no requirement for intimacy, and really, really, really, think about it, you realise its like comparing oranges and lemons... they are not the same thing, and there's no point hoping that a lemon will ever taste like an orange ~ it won't.

Do I believe that my P truly loved me at some point? He has been besotted with me for the last 6 years, and despite however much I have antagonised him, trying to work out what it is between us that doesn't work and further inquringing why he responds to these intrustions by being insistently positively heinious towards me, he still doesn't tell me to take a long walk off a short pier, anymore than I am capable of doing likewise. Why because he knows that in continuing to harrang him, I care, and I know that whilst he continues to get annoyed at me that he cares.

Conclusion: of course this guy is in love with me.

Does it change anything? No, I need emotional intimacy in my close relationships, and I will be pig miserable without it. So time to move on from this emotional retard, and settle down with someone who doesn't think that intimacy is optional. (End of story.)

These are just my thoughts on my situation, and I realise that others will have very different experiences.

Kind regards

K.T.

KT:

<<<<<<
Conclusion: of course this guy is in love with me.

Does it change anything? No, I need emotional intimacy in my close relationships, and I will be pig miserable without it. So time to move on from this emotional retard, and settle down with someone...>>>>


wow!


yikes........i like the way u write.

yip.

u understand.

i need to think and re re read this post of yours. lots to get through.

thanku.

and..please ...if u desire...write more........

Dusty,

glad that I might be helping in however small a way.

My viewpoint comes from reading this book:

The Abusive Personality: Violence and Control in Intimate Relationships By Donald G. Dutton

And from the very kind advice from a similarly afflicted individual who has no intimacy requirement ~ he isn't a P though, he's autistic. Evidently some people, P or otherwise, do not have a requirement for intimacy.

Rick maybe touched on this, in that he indicated that his P's mother describe that her son never wanted to indulge in cuddles.

Actually, my mother sayes the same about me, that as she understands me I do not seek out intimacy, have always been "hands off" even as a tiny baby. I believe this is an autistic trait in me, I am not a P ~ Heaven forbid!!!!

I do recognise that I did not have a requirement for intimacy as a child. As a teenager this developed into a curiosity about intimacy that lead to a degree of loneliness that prompted me to experiment with intimacy in romantic relationships, and I never looked back.

So I discovered intimacy at the age of 16 and do seek it out in intimate relationships, but only when I am comfortable with the individual and ready too.

However to this day I am overwhelmed with ardent admirers, and so I tend to select those who do not overwhelm me with emotional or physical intimacy demands. From time to time in my life, I feel so threatened by ardent admirers, that I will trade committment for protection of someone who likes me but is under-whelming me with demands for physical and emotional intimacy. Because ardent admirers usually give up pursuing you if they believe you are committed to someone else.

If follows that someone who does not have a requirement for intimacy is likely to not be emotionally or physically intimately demanding.

Obviously some Ps, for whatever reason, still do not have a requirement for intimacy, and they might therefore fit into this category of not so ardent admirers not placing physical or emotional intimate demands on you before you are ready. e.g. they can appear as honourable and sensitive gentlemen.

This is one of the qualities that I find very attractive, and I suspect that many Ps have this quality. For me that is a real eye opener major red flag to what out for when initiating new relationships.

I just worked this out today.

I hope this helps in some way Dusty.

I'm happy to elaborate how I derived at my viewpoint. So please do ask questions if you have any.

Kind regards

K.T.

I am so glad someone asked this question because it has been bugging me since I threw my P out of my life. He was with me for seven years. MY heart tells me that on the hundreds of business trips he took in that time that he would call me each day and send emails and cards professing undying love. At night he would hold me so tight and he wanted me sexually every day-more than once a day was what he wanted. My heart tells me that he must have loved me because he asked me to marry him and pushed for a Xmas wedding. But I also used my head and got some facts. My head tells me that he couldn't possibly have loved me as others love because in the week he asked me to marry him, he also asked someone else(confirmed by them). As he was pushing me for a wedding date, he was assisting another of his girlfriends to move to Melbourne - our home town (confirmed by business registration papers). While I spent my 2 week summer break painting the bathroom that our children used (he lived in my home)he went to Brisbane- a city far north- and was making out with girlfriend X (confirmed by his kids and him). In 2000 when he first lived with me, he did about 6 trips to the USA. He would ring me every day and tell me how much he loved me- my heart says he must have loved me. But again my head says look at the facts- on each trip- he had another woman waiting for him (confirmed by her and cross referenced to both our diaries). I even think that he played up on her and on me whilst in the US. So, I don't believe any of us were loved. On a simple level, it looks a bit like a game played with a dog. Sometimes I watch my dog and if I put my head on one side, so does she. Then I turn my head the other way and so does she. She does it because she gets positive reinforcement. ) The P says he loves you because you say you love him and he quickly notes that the I loves you are rewarded with sex or gifts or attention.(I use the dog image because one of the other members recently wrote that P years are like dog years- every year with a P is worth seven normal years) In our hearts we want to know that we were loved because other wise we just wasted our time and were completely conned and that truth is hard to face. I read recently the best piece about facing truth from a woman called Gilberta Najamy who lived with a P who said- the truth is a snare. You cannot have it without being caught. You cannot have the truth in such a way that you catch it but only in such a way that it catches you.

Writer1,

Your story echoes so many of our own. My P insisted on, and professed to, a monogamous relationship. I found out later
that it was anything but that. Yes, I think you are correct..... dealing with a P is much like a game played with your dog. It's all about positive reinforcement.

Rick

>>On a simple level, it looks a bit like a game played with a dog. Sometimes I watch my dog and if I put my head on one side, so does she. Then I turn my head the other way and so does she. She does it because she gets positive reinforcement. )(I use the dog image because one of the other members recently wrote that P years are like dog years- every year with a P is worth seven normal years)<<

writer,
I really like the dog anology. After living in the P. world I have decided that now my best friend is a 7 yr old long haired dog. I know my dog loves me unconditionally (and deserves my love 100%). The P. could have never done that. To hook me P. acted as if his friendship was unconditional. He forgave me for everything, acted as if there wasn't a thing I could do to make him mad. However he did tell me that I would know it if I ever made him mad. He said never let anybody know your true feelings that they will only be used against you. I guess he was warning me about him. He also told me that everybody deserves to be treated okay by him until they do him wrong. Haaa! The truth is he chooses up front who will be in his dellusional wonderful world and who will be made fun of and devalued from the minute he meets you. You can almost bet the ones that are in the wonderful world will cross over to devaluation as soon as they catch on or as soon as they are no good to him. I told him I tried to make it work and he said it would have worked under his
terms. When I look back I see that he has revealed part of his real P. self to me all along, I was just too blinded to see it. Then when it all started to come together it was D&D time.

>>In our hearts we want to know that we were loved because other wise we just wasted our time and were completely conned and that truth is hard to face. I read recently the best piece about facing truth from a woman called Gilberta Najamy who lived with a P who said- the truth is a snare. You cannot have it without being caught. You cannot have the truth in such a way that you catch it but only in such a way that it catches you.<<

I totally agree. The truth is so very hard to accept. I tried hard to make the truth of the P. not what it was once I figured it out, if that makes since. The betrayal was too hard to bare for so long. I work hard today to not allow the memories of betrayal to take over.

betterway

dusty. . .this is something I totally relate to.

>>i believe he was caught up in the 'chemical rush' of having 'fallen in love' as i was. i do however also believe his original intent was to quietly try to sexually seduce me, the happily married woman. i do not think he ever thought he could or would fall in love. <<

Unfortunately. . ."I" was the one who fell in love. . .passionately and profoundly. Still love P#2. . .but do recognize that it will and can never work. He remaims a P.

finished

Finished:

yes. i so agree.

gotta keep working on me, changing my unproductive thought, my blocks, my spins, get out of the past as fast i can to avoid swirling with the downward spiral.

Writer1

you have my sympathy for the duplicity that your P appears to display.

I am not going trying to justify duplicity in any shape or form. However I think through observation and experience I can explain it.

I have experimented with duplicity (having simultaneous relationships) as a strategy for mitigating abandonment pain.

When I was young I had an affair with a married man for a couple of years. He was in love with me and I was quite dependent but never in love with him. Despite all this I realised that such affairs don't go anywhere, and started a relationship with somone else. My married lover was beside himself, and the affair ended, although we remain very close friends to this day.

The next time I found myself involved with another magnetic yet unavailable individual, I was wary that that relationship would be difficult for me to leave, and I simmultaneously initiated a relatationship with my P.

P never knew about the affair I was having, but my lover was aware of my relationship with P (since we were having a truly clandestine affair, he could hardly argue about me having a formal relationship agenda as he had) and despite the taxing physical demands of conducting two brand new relationships at the same time, all went well whilst both these situations remained "stable".

My theory is that because I had two relationships on the go, it stopped me from becoming too wrapped up with either of them (which appears to be the cause of the death of all my romances), and as a result both fell very passionately in love with me.

The lover left his girlfriend of 12 years, and subsequently asked me to marry him on a couple of occasions. Once for a fleeting second, I made a decision to leave P for this guy, but before I could disengage myself from P, the lover backtracked, he still appeared to be justifying a relationship with his long term girlfriend and wouldn't let her go. And I revised my decision to disengage P.

My lover eventually broke off our relationship as he cited that my intimate aloofness and bed-hopping ability were very "male" characteristics, unstomachable in his mind and therefore he just couldn't accept them. The pain of this abandonment was indeed cushioned in the arms of my blissfully in love and entirely emotionally oblivious P (NB since he is so untuned to what is going on in me, he totally missed the huge emotional distress I was under at the time).

Within a couple of months my lover MARRIED his girlfriend behind my back!!! We have also remained close friends and he still solicits me, in all seriousness, to marry him.

In the interim I settled down into monogamy with P and soon brought up the issue of us moving in together. The relationship between me and P limped along for another couple of years, but we continued to fight about the degree of intimacy between the two of us. I want intimacy and he doesn't want any.

The bottom line to all of this is, it appears that I make a better girlfriend / partner when I have my affections split than when I have my affections focused on one individual.

I'm as abhored as the next person at the thought of someone I truly love sharing me with anyone else, and at the point that I am in a monogamous relationship and messing it up because I'm too wrapped up in that person, having affairs doesn't even cross my mind.

I suspect though if I wasn't rendered such a mental mess by intimacy, and I could get away with it, duplicity might be the only way I'm able to remain stable enough to be a viable & desirable partner.

So it does make sense in some cases, to have an affair in order to keep yourself balanced and so keep the person you love in your life, if you really love them and can't bear to lose them. The only reason against simultaneous relationships is morality, which has nothing to do with love.

As I said, I'm not trying to morally justify it. But there are rational explanations to apparent duplicity, and they don't necesarily constitute the other person not loving you. That is why some cultures around the world don't bat an eyelid at affairs. The French have a very different attitude to it for example.

I hope this sheds some light on things for you Writer1. Personally I don't think it changes anything, whether he loves you or not, he cheated on you and you don't appear to find that behaviour acceptable in that that was not the type of relationship you had both committed to. Its up to you if you put up with it thereafter, whether he loved you or not is surely no longer relevant?

Kind regards

K.T.

I don't believe that a man that is consistently a two timer is necessarily a psycopath. There are plenty of cultures in which two timing is virtually institutionalized. This seems to me a different type of difficulty since the man may indeed love or care for more than one woman, just be unwilling to be faithful. The capacity to care or more precisely have feelings of regard for an individual, is something a psychopath lacks completely.

Don Juanism or being a Casanova may be some other disorder other than psychopathy. Of course, it is abusive if you are being deceived, therefore most women may choose to end such a relationship.

My psychopath simply did not care for my well being at any time that I knew him. Only his. He only pretended to love me. I don't think he felt anything other than feelings towards himself. He confirmed towards the end of the relationship that he had few feeligns for others.

However how they feel internally is so foreign to us that it is impossible not to slip and imbue behavior that looks like love with the label love, but it is not.

Algaringo

Algarino

I agree with all you have said - a P has no concept of love - only of self and this is totally separate from the run of the mill adulterer.

Best wishes

Recovery

I agree that "run of the mill" adultery is not a prerequisite for being a psychopath. However, when a person systematically cheats on several people at once - insists on monogamy with all of his targets and lies to each of them - it seems like a good indicator that the person might be a psychopath.

I believe the "run of the mill" adulterer would have enough guilt/excitement trying to keep one affair under wraps. The emotional toll on a "normal" adulterer would make it difficult to sustain multiple relationships. I believe the P doesn't have such emotional constraints and can therefore use his energy more efficiently and keep many women going at the same time. And while the "normal" adulterer usually wants to keep the affair quiet, the P will often play the women off of each other.

This may fall under the category of NPD - but with my P there wasn't any remorse. When I confronted him about his "secret world", he actually showed me evidence of the many women he was seeing and said I shouldn't be upset - I should just compete harder. It was all a game for him. I don't believe he had real feelings for any of us (other than jealousy when somebody "cheated" on him).

Hi Lynnie

I agree and sympathise with you and your experience - I think you are right in the P classification. By run of the mill I mean the ones who have affairs for the sake of it, for fun, think they love more tahn one etc but have a conscience too. Still not nice for the partner but it is way off being as cruel as the scanario we have both experienced with the Ps.

Recovery

Lynnie,

Yes, I would like to hear from other members if their P's insisted on monogamy. Mine did.....and seemed to be overly
concerned as to how I was connected with other people. "How
do you know that person? How did you meet?" were frequent questions. My P couldn't fathom my dating other people, much less an open relationship....Ha! I guess those rules didn't apply to my P!

Rick

I wish I could really understand what is going on in the P mind. We can all conjecture, but we never really know. And this is what allows us to project whatever we need to see.

My P made contact again (after a couple months of silence). He "is healing now and wants to apologize". I did not respond, but sit here questioning his motivation. Is he bored and needs fresh blood? Is there a part of him that feels remorse for the awful things he said and did? Is he trying to re-adjust the mask for some reason? Or is he testing the waters to see if he can still control me?

I don't believe that he is healing, but I do think he needs to apologize. And then I wonder if I AM dealing with a person with no conscience, or just an extremely messed up jerk.

I always felt there were two distinct personalities - good P and bad P - good P was always worried about self, but had the ability to say and do the socially appropriate thing. He was fun, exciting, and often seemed "loving". Bad P was a textbook P. He lied, cheated, was aggressive, said cruel things, rationalized his P behavior and admitted that he never felt remorse. I guess good P was the mask and bad P was the demon behind the mask.

But why does he need to contact me? And (more importantly) why do I waste time wondering about his motivation?

wow, so many amazing insights you people have and much food for thought.
i just recently started to key in to the fact that my boyfriend (ex if i remain steadfast!) might fit into the catagory of P, or at least some form of anti social behaviour disorder. after being with him for 4 years, the last 3 in steadily increasing confusion, i have realized that the more information i gathered about him the more confused i became. is information not geared to make you more knowledgable and enlightened? with the p, this a qualified no. it's so very hard to "figure out" this complex person. he displays classic symptoms of a passive/aggressive, a narcissist, a p, and a river in egypt!! however, with every classic symptom of whatever disorder he's been tagged with, there is a "but he appears to have an opposite trait to that". i think the key word with a P, is the word "appears".
the first 6 months of our relationship he was attentive, talkative, charming, seemingly conscious, sensitive, compassionate and considerate. slowly he replaced those traits with opposite ones. inattentive, withdrawn and silent, in denial, insensitive, discompassionate and inconsiderate. not always, but the scales weighed heavily to the negative. he feigned forgetfullness and innocence and not paying attention, when i know that all along he must be paying very rapt and sharp attention to my signals because he was capable of being very present in the beginning. he acted like an innocent victim of my frustrated moods...never taking any accountability for his part in conflict between us. the problems were always MY problems that were destructive to the relationship. he was always the victim, never a player.
he wanted the relationship on HIS terms. he wanted all the priveledges of a "marriage" and none of the duties or responsibilities. he wanted to be a single married man. he invalidated my feelings as "my issues" and my screwed up perceptions. he refused to deal with me, by total withdrawal, and then when i got frustrated for feeling like a ghost and being completely ignored, he could point his finger at me and call me angry and crazy. he always came up smelling like a rose. oh, but the other side of it was the aggression. his m.o. was withdraw or attack. if i pushed his buttons, by exposing a truth about him, he would fly into a rage and hit me or do something humiliating like pour a drink over my head, or throw me out the door in the middle of winter barefoot! it was either a complete lack of response or an outrageous over response. wanting control while being priveledged, on his part, to be out of control. i wasn't allowed the same safety net. in the end, the owness was on me to "come from a place of love, not anger" as he put it. anger? who was wailing on who? he felt that if i "took a tone" with him, then that was equal in hurting him as slapping me across the face, or by total withdrawal....like i didn't even exist.
this person can see the faults in others no problem, but can never see anything he does as wrong or needing to be accounted for. he has exacted such a toll....financially, emotionally, physically and mentally. looking at pictures of us in the beginning and recently...i look much older and weary after my time with him! and i have always tried to figure him out, and tried to figure out what is wrong with me that i attracted him to me! what is the hook? why did i stay and remain so attached in love with him? why did i give all my power and energy to a man that is at once hyper controlling and yet removed?
i look back on the beautiful memories (yes there are a few!) and i feel like it was all such an illusion. the illusion of a caring, gentle, insightful, wonder of a human being. is it smoke and mirrors with the P? it was like he had a spell on me. the many times we "broke up" he would lure me back in and then slide sideways again. always the same pattern. he was on his best behaviour for a very short time and then back to all the old crap. for some reason, even with all his obvious flaws that we all (myself, our friends, and family) see, he has the ability to have us all forgive him and give him yet another chance. he has some magnetic power it seems. there is something....about....him. he garners compassion and we all want him back in our lives. the odd one who doesn't fall for his game (my one son for example) he notes and harbours a passive resentment for. but his resentments are always justified in his mind...it's always the other person who is "off".
i suppose he represented a challenge for me. i never really "had him" and was always on the hunt for his adoration and intimacy. he did display adoration and intimacy many times, don't get me wrong, but they were always at his convenience and when they weren't really "needed" by me at the time he was giving it out. as soon as i "needed" his expression of love and intimacy and tenderness, he refused it. this was such a challenge, and kept me in the hunt. at least i was never bored, oh god forbid. lol.
i am still in danger of being lured back in by him, but i know it's a dead end street and i've bashed my head against his walls for so long, i know it's never going to change. i thought i was "special" enough to propel him into really loving me fully and being someone who i guess he is not capable of being. it's hard for me to admit...i am not that special!
so does the P really love you? well, i've asked that one so many times. they appear to, and then their actions and energetics totally bely that and then you say, "well he loves me to the best of his ability, or he loves me as much as he's capable of, or he loves me in his own way..." they have danced the dance of intimacy but it is illusionary. the thing is, i think they actually believe they DO love you, and that your needs are too great and out of proportion. they are not conscious of themselves in any way. they are very intelligent also. well mine is, and i've been hooked into the belief of "how can he be so intelligent and yet so unconscious of his behaviours"? it's ultimate duplicity and duality. light and shadow, but the shadow is enormous. the light can be too, that is the confusion. like i said before though, look at the balance of the scales. these people get you doubting yourself, and they are killers of your intuition.
if you get unhooked from a P, spend time in healing. you are vulnerable and have really been knocked off your centre. we are susceptible to them i think, and now you must really pay attention to any and all flags. exit at the yellow one....do not pass go!

It is VERY important to remember when dealing with a P that they are cyclical in everything that they do. They throw out some appealing crumb (remorse, concern, interest), seduce us by turning on the charm and pushing all of the correct buttons/saying all of the right things. And then when they know that they "have us" throw us out again and again and again. Don't fall for their smokescreen. IT IS ALL A GAME TO THEM.

And, for some reason, if you do find yourself sitting down to talk to your P don't let him/her get away with anything. If the P wants to appologize as him why he feels that way. What it means to him. How it made him feel to do the things he did to you. Keep pressuring him and asking him questions. He'll deflect you each and every time. Still, though, my advice to you would be to let sleeping P's be !!!!!!

Rick

Scarlet.

Well put.
" they have danced the dance of intimacy but it is illusionary."
Absolutely. The thing is, regardless of how intelligent
they may be the P has absolutely no idea that he/she is
engaging in this.
"....it's ultimate duplicity and duality. light and shadow, but the shadow is enormous. the light can be too, that is the confusion. like i said before though, look at the balance of the scales. these people get you doubting yourself, and they are killers of your intuition. "
I am an extremely intuitive person and I not only scare myself...but others as well. The funny thing was that around my P my intuition was put on hold. I couldn't get a sense of what was going on and that gave me the feeling that something was clearly "not right." I couldn't put my finger on it. I even talked about it, many times, to my therapist and to my friends. So, perhaps this is another red flag for us all.

Rick

Thanks, Rick. Your advice is exactly right. Everything I've read - here and elsewhere - indicates that the "no contact" approach is the only reasonable one. I think all my research on the subject is making me curious and that's the strongest pull right now. I don't have any interest in any sort of relationship with him. But I would so love to be a fly on his wall - or to be able to intercept his thoughts for a few days...

>> Unfortunately. . ."I" was the one who fell in love. . .passionately and profoundly. Still love P#2. . .but do recognize that it will and can never work. He remaims a P.<<

This got me thinking about the flip side of the coin. We'll never know if the P truly loved us, but it sure seems like we loved them as intensely as we've ever loved.

It seems that most of us are mesmerized by our P's, at least in the beginning. The connection seems to be so strong that we'll rationalize and forgive the P's most horrible behavior.

Has anyone had this "madly" in love feeling toward a normal, healthy person? Should that be the ultimate red flag? My relationships with mere mortals have never been as intense as the illusionary one I had with P.

Can you expect fireworks in a normal relationship, or are they a sign that you are about to be burned?

Lynnie,

I have certainly had fireworks in other relationships. So yes, that does exist. I'm convinced it's just hormones run amuck! For me it was slightly different with the P in that I never felt like this person could hold me close enough or get close enough to me! Now who wouldn't be intoxicated by that! I honestly felt as if the P was trying to feed off of my energy. Imagine my shock when I read that P's are like "emotional vampires....feeding off of their victims." Chilling! I think that is why we feel so drained when we are around them.
Of course this closeness that I mention only happened during the adulation phase. Shortly thereafter I may as well have been living on a glacier somewhere! Then again, as we have all experienced in one form or another, when I would begin to pull away small crumbs of affection would be thrown my way.

Rick

Rick:

I feel u r so fortunate that from what I remember, u only spent 4 months with your P...I do hope i am correct here...?

If this is the case, considering that so many of us spent years with our P's, u ,too, must feel fortunate that it was a very short relationship.

Do u feel u r heading toward healing?

KT mentioned that you seem to have only "superficially" experienced your P's devastation.

with this in mind, does a shorter time appear to be just as devastating as others who have suffered in depth for years with P-ism?

Dusty,

Yes, I only spent 4 actual months in a relationship with my P. However, my P got to know me online, via e-mails, for several months before we actually met in person. I now know that my P was gathering a lot of valuable information about my personality within this time period.
To answer your question, I do feel extremely fortunate that the relationship only lasted 4 months. However, I don't think that anyone can truly quantify the amount of devastation that one feels or experiences...whether it lasts 4 weeks, 4 months or 4 years..... particularly when we are dealing with "feelings." We all seem to share so many parallels... the length of time doesn't seem relevant. (I am not trying to put you down in any way, by the way... it's just how I feel.) So, no, I don't feel I experienced my P in a superficial way. And yes, I have found the experience to be both traumatic and devastating. Honestly, although I am getting on with my life (though not dating) I am still haunted.... and I do mean that literally..... haunted by this experience. I will say though, that I do feel for those that have had to suffer for years and years prior to discovering that they were dealing with a person with a severe personality disorder.

Rick

Rick:

I understand and I very much agree with most all u say here.

what an unbelievable nightmere we have all had to endure because we CARED about another human being.

i am in severe anger mode right now. all this suffering to what end?

we need ever so much to hold onto positive people and good things.

Lynnie: You asked: "Has anyone had this "madly" in love feeling toward a normal, healthy person? Should that be the ultimate red flag? My relationships with mere mortals have never been as intense as the illusionary one I had with P. "

There is definitely something different in the way I loved my P. You are so right in saying that we forgive them the most horrendous behaviour and continue to love them. I have never been as mentally stimulated as during my relationship with P, or felt such an intense need to be loved and to care for anyone.

On the other hand, I have loved a normal person perhaps even more, but in an entirely different way. I loved him because of what he was - kind, caring, fun and entirely honest. If he had behaved in a P-like manner, I would have stopped loving him, because what I felt for him was based on reality, not an illusion. There were fireworks - but not that blind, intense devotion which I felt for the P. Maybe this is where the red flag should come in - when we catch ourselves loving someone in spite of what they are, not because of what they are?

Rick,

My experience with P was short, a year or two. More an ambiguous friendship. Devastating. Haunting me daily. I am feeling better everyday, after a year of no contact, but it is still hauting me.

>>let sleeping P's be !!!!!!<<

There are times where I am restless and start having magical thinking. I have seen the P. from a distance 4 times in 2 weeks. Why now after 3 months of absolute NO CONTACT? It has been a test for me. I start thinking why can't we be friends and maybe I am strong enough now. I know I can't ever make contact with him, and that is sad, but the truth. To have contact with him will mess with my recovery. So it is so true - the only thing I can do is- let sleeping P's be, as rick says.

Finished, where are you, how are you doing?

betterway

hopeful,
I was just thinking recently that it is amazing how after so long it does continue to haunt us. If I'm not rehashing memories and situations in my mind while awake then I have dreams about different situations with the P. It hasn't helped that I have seen him several times recently. Not initiated in anyway by either of us just chance sightings. It has been about a year for me from when I started the path of breaking free. It took me about 9 months to get the "no contact" rule really working. And finally P. allowed me to break free when he quit calling. I also towards the end was doing some of the things suggested for breaking free from the P. on one of the other websites. One of them was to act bored when speaking to P. and to not offer up any personal information. Speak to P. as if you were talking to an aquantience (sp?). Of course this all went against what I really wanted to do, but I had to do it, the P. gave me no choice.

I am also feeling better the longer I go without contact. Somedays I hardly think about the P and his crazy world.

Take Care,
betterway

Dear me! The system failed to register me, and I felt that I could not reply to clear this one up!

Dusty really it might have seemed that I felt that Ric's expreience was superficial. That is not my impression of Ric. I feel that he is an extremely perceptive guy, who might therefore be more perceptive to P abuse than I am. I applauded him for working out his P so quickly. I wish I had worked out mine in a similar timescale.

Of course we all go thorough different degrees of perception, as do our Ps go through different stages of reaction. Maybe Ric's P was on a shorter cycle to my P? Maybe Ric is much more assertive than I am about how someone should appropriately treat him?


Rick is the way forward, if I can work out in the same time scale as Rick that the next guy I'm dating is a P, then that is great for me. I really did not mean to imply that Rick had experienced his P superfically.

I don't believe that Rick would feel as he does if it was only a superficial interaction... he would be too busy cosying up to his new hon. if that was the case. Right Rick?

Kind regards

K.T.

On the tangent of cosying up to the next hon:

When I finally broke up with P, I jumped into a new relationship. I did this because there happened to be a nice guy that was interested in me, and I did this to break the cycle with P. I knew that if I didn't have someone to play with I would be much more likely to go back to P when he turned on the charm. I was honest with new guy about P, and often suggested to new guy that he "run screaming" away from me!

I realized too late that jumping into a relationship was not fair to new guy, and not fair to me, either. I needed time to heal and re-group before I could be worth anything in a new relationship.

The new relationship is seven months old and quite pleasant. Two months ago I found this site, and other data on the internet, which helped me to identify P's disorder. Before my research in July, I just thought P was a messed up pup and I was a loser for not getting out when I first saw the red flags - I would never have guessed I was dealing with a card-carrying psychopath.

So now that I seem to have a nice guy quite smitten with me (no doubt because I'm a bit emotionally unavailable to him!), I'm wondering what to do. In the last couple months I've realized that my experience with P was so traumatizing that I don't quite trust my instincts. I look for red flags everywhere. Does my new relationship have a chance? I've started to relax a bit, but I'm over-analyzing everything at the moment and fear I'll sabotage a good relationship.

KT,

Totally, I understood your point and did take offense to it
in the least. Thanks for your concern though.

Rick

Thanks Rick... glad we cleared that up!

Lynnie,

what you say makes perfect sense. I don't believe in moving on to the next relationship before you're over the last one. With my P, it was so difficult. How can you tell someone that you broke up with you ex because he was so mad at you that he made your life unbearable, and so you had to make a decision between living a nightmare, or parting with the person you care about most in the world?

The new beau would immediately ask you "Why is he mad at you?" To which you have to honestly answer, "I havn't the faintest idea." Whereupon he will normally presume you've done something to upset him or you're particularly needy & demanding, and therefore think you're not a good person to be pursuing a relationship with. And even if by some expremely slim chance he accepts your explanations (and even I don't accept those answers, its just that those are really the only answers that I have) he eventually comes to thinking, "So what happens when he calms down?"

This is why I asked the question. What do you tell your new guy?

I'm just so glad I've got Rick's scripted response... I'm learning it off by heart... it might come in handy this weekend... I'm in Windsor, the town that has the highest ratio of affluent well-off unattached males to females in the whole of the UK!!! On Monday we are going to the Ascot races!

But what I'm really excited about is that I have an interview tomorrow for my dream job!!!

The same week that I got back with P in March, I watched my grandfather pass away in front my eyes and got made redundant from Worldcom!...

Its about time my luck changed!

Kind regards

K.T.

>> Unfortunately. . ."I" was the one who fell in love. . .passionately and profoundly. Still love P#2. . .but do recognize that it will and can never work. He remaims a P.<<

Reality is finally setting in. . .I am starting to "get it".
Regardless of everything my brain knows to be true there has been a part of me that has been still hoping and praying that P#2 really cared about me. I am facing it now almost a year later (october 1st will be one year since "it" happened) P#2 used me. Everything I believed was in my head. . .he never told me different. . .he was very clever. He "acted" like loved me. . .but he only said the words once and that was when he was mad.

I have felt very pensive these past few weeks. Reality is just that. . .reality. . .I'm just now beginning to be able to accept that.

This is without a doubt the most difficult thing I have ever been through. Closure comes slowly and some days are better than others.

I still feel shock and find it difficult to grasp that I was led to believe a lie. . .

one day at a time. . .
finished

Hi Betterway,

These past couple of weeks have been hard on me.

I received a phone call about ten days ago and it triggered off all that "stuff".

It came about 7am from the AT&T operator. She told me it was ?????? kind of call (she had a name for it) and I asked her what that was. she told me it was a hearing impaired call. The person wanted to know if I sold----, I said yes. They asked price etc, I told them. They had a few more question and asked if I would e mail them. I said I would be happy to and they gave their e mail address. www.comexmyway.com. Then they said thanks and hung up. The operator told me that you do not have to be hearing impaired to use this service.

I sat there feeling shocked and violated. What a sneaky way to get an obscene phone call in. . .then every man I know went under suspicion. Then of course. . .I wondered. . .did P#2 do it.

It was a set back for me for more than a few days.

I had felt pretty empowered up till then but it brought back all that old stuff. . .you know what I mean? It amazed ne how something like this brought up all those old feelings. I've tried to put it behind me now but it's been a struggle. Right after it happened, I found myself unable to get out of bed a few days. Then that tracelike state started taking over. I had to FORCE myself out of bed and out of the house. I actually felt like I was paralyzed, like I was afraid to move.

This P encounter has changed me so much. I'm stronger now Betterway and I will not quit. I'll keep getting up and with Gods grace, I will make it. WE will make it! Everyone here has been affected by a P experience of some kind. We are here and we will stick together and WE WILL make it! And we will be stronger, better and much, much wiser. :-)

Thanks for looking for me. . .I so appreciate that.

With love,
finished

Hey (((finished))),

Glad to hear from you!!

>>I had felt pretty empowered up till then but it brought back all that old stuff. . .you know what I mean? It amazed ne how something like this brought up all those old feelings. I've tried to put it behind me now but it's been a struggle.<<

Of course I know what you mean, finished. About a month ago the P. did something indirectly that only I can know the meaning behind it and I haven't even talked to him in 100 days. Because of the nature of our business there are things he can do that I will be aware of. I can't be specific here. But I can tell you that it did bring back some old stuff. I am finding now that the longer I have no contact that I come out of these episodes quicker than before. Whats funny about the whole thing is that he has made a mistake on something that I use to take care of for him and it is costing him additional money that he doesn't need to spend. But, hey, he is not my responsibility and I DO NOT have to have any loyalty to him. RIGHT!! Gosh, I use to be so honest and loyal to him - YUCK.

I can honestly say that I don't want the P. to call today and that is a total miracle in itself.

finished, the thought that he may call or I may run into him does scare me. I remember those trance like states, the deep depression, the lack of motivation to do anything, lack of concentration and I don't want to go back there.

When I was looking for a new job I had an interview with someone I used to work with (we both no longer work around P). This guy told me that he hasn't changed that he is the person I knew back then (as if this was a good thing) and he even bragged about the way he runs his business(which is similar to P's ideas). He hadn't a clue, he thought by talking about P. in a positive light that I would go work for him. All I could think, is yeah - but I have changed. I couldn't work for this guy because of him having any past or present association with P. I couldn't risk the P. having a way to get at me.

Take care of yourself we will all definetly make it through this together.

betterway

Thanks for your response Betterway. . .it really helps to know I am not alone. . .OR paranoid! That someone else realizes that there REALLY ARE people that deliberately prey on others vulnerable hearts and emotions. For their own gain. . .as if they get some perverse pleasure in watching their target in pain. Today even still. . .I had to say. . .get out of bed. . .brush your teeth. . .eat. . .call so and so. . .it is not as though I'm operating from a natual rhythm but having to tell myself what to do next. It's like I'm feeling the trauma all over again. . .but this time I know there is an end to this part because there was an end last time. I'm accepting it is just something I'm going through right now.
(does that make sense)?

Thank you again (betterway). You sound VERY good!!!

Have a SUPER DELUXE day! (p free of course) :-)
finished

It's funny how P's just keep coming back. I always thought the movies where the villain keeps coming back from near death were very unrealistic until I had my first P encounter.

I have done everything "right" for the past few months in terms of no contact. And there was a nice, peaceful silence for two months. Now it's starting up again. He has sent 3 emails in the past two weeks (allegedly wanting to make amends). I had blocked his email address months ago, so he created a new one. When I blocked the new address last week, he decided to show up at a place where he knew I would be. He hasn't shown up there in months, so I can only assume he was doing it to "punish" me. I completely ignored him, even though I wanted to confront him and embarass him for continuing to harass me.

The next day I was angry that he still has the nerve to continue harassing me. And I was upset with myself for not standing up to him. But then two people who love me said I did the right thing - that confronting him would have made him believe that I still cared. If he knew that he could make me angry, he'd show up whenever he felt like getting a reaction out of me.

So I laughed with my friends and felt a little better. Then last night I had the most disturbing dream. I kept running and running to get away from him, but he kept chasing and chasing. I woke up exhausted and mentally beaten up. So now he can get to me in my dreams, too. I think I need a P lobotomy.

>>It's funny how P's just keep coming back. I always thought the movies where the villain keeps coming back from near death were very unrealistic until I had my first P encounter. >>

I am learning P's NEVER let go. . .it is me that will have to free myself. They have a jillion ways to lure us back. Even in our dreams. I dream about P#2 probably at least 4 or 5 times a week. All kinds of different stuff. It is always disturbing. . .

I am coming up on the aniversary of the "-------" whatever it was. . .I get trance like. . .even now. Maybe this is the dark before the light the storm before the calm. Sure hope so.

Thank you so much for sharing Lynnie. . .
finished

It sounds to me like you have made tremendous progress in your situation. To be able to pull off what you did when you ran into him was miraculous. My hat goes off to you.

sjs

I hope I don't see the P. around town because then I start to feel guilty. The last 2 times I saw him we were close enough to wave, not to speak. I didn't do anything except turn my head and just kept on driving. It is not my general nature to ignore someone I know. However in the P. situation I see no other choice. If I open up the door of communication with P. I will be in for a wild ride. Like Rick has said "better to let sleeping P's be".

betterway

It is so true about the guilt. I feel terrible there is a person in this world who I can not allow myself to connect with. I've lived my whole life trying not to create enemies. But he lives his life by wreaking havoc with whomever he pleases. Family, friends, strangers are all fair game.

I had another dream last night. I was talking with a friend who also knows P. We were both trying to remember his name, but couldn't. And in the dream I couldn't even remember what he looked like. Maybe there is some progress after all.

I had a most amusing development yesterday that I'd like to share.

I think I've mentioned that my P was stalking and harassing his ex while pursuing me (and others). He was not allowing her to date anyone even though they were separated and she had no interest in getting back together with P. He would threaten and bully any guy that tried to date her.

Yesterday, I saw her hand-in-hand with a huge guy. She found someone who makes P look scrawny! She finally found her way out. I smiled and realized that P may be starting up contact with me as a way to make her jealous - since he can't bully the new boyfriend. I think I figured out his game

Good for her! Maybe we all need a brawny hunk to keep the P's away? And glad you can laugh about it! Definitely a good sign of healing.

I wouldn't be surprised, at all, if your P tried to contact you again as a result. They always need someone to victimize. Why not try the last person on the list? And P's can be very intimidated by other people (whether they are bigger in stature, position, etc...)
I had only one experience when I had to confront my P directly. This was after I knew that he was, in fact, a P. I won't recount the whole story...but I will say that I went in with backup (a friend whom can look rather intimidating
accompanied me) and my P totally backed down. I could see
it made him VERY uncomfortable that someone else was there on my behalf.

Rick

The contact started about 3 weeks ago, and I couldn't understand why he had been quiet for two months just to start up again. His recent messages that he wanted to make amends didn't make sense, but made me feel guilty that I wasn't big enough to forgive him. But when I saw the new hulky boyfriend it all made sense. The past couple of "quiet" months P was probably focused on trying to keep the new relationship (with his ex and her new guy) from going anywhere. When that didn't work he started up with me - either to make her jealous or for some other psychopathic motivation.

At the risk of boring everyone with the latest development, P has decided to join my pool league. He showed up last night and jumped on a team. He picked a team that just happened to play my team. So we both avoided eye contact, he played his match, and he left shortly after he was done.

I was okay - I wish he hadn't decided to do this, but he didn't threaten me or any of my friends (as he has done in the past). I don't know how long it will work to ignore him - I suspect at some point he'll want to "talk", but I know it's all part of his game plan to hurt me more. And if he does anything threatening I can get him thrown out.

I was feeling pretty good that I handled the situation gracefully and I had my friends around to keep things under control. Then this morning, which happens to be my deceased mother's birthday, everything started crashing in my brain. The last time I went to the cemetary was with P last winter. It was snowing and dark and it was one of my last interactions with P. He scraped all the ice and snow off my mother's stone and seemed as emotional as I was (even though he had never met her). He told me he promised her he would take care of me.

Today I am caught up in that moment where he seemed loving and sweet. And I think he wasn't all bad, and why can't I be cordial to him when I see him. I forget all the bad stuff - like the fact that 3 days after he made the promise to my mother, he dumped me for the umpteenth time (probably to see one of his other targets).

Why does the brain work this way? Just when you think you're doing okay, you start spinning out of control...

That's a great strategy, for dealing with all men. Just install a bigger one than the last one and they keep all other men at bay.

It breaks down when P is a brainy, brawny hunk. Mine's 6'2" and 240lbs of honed flesh. Nobody scares him. He can scare just about everybody physically & mentally.

Don't say I didn't warn you!

K.T.

KT,

I know you are probably being just witty...but I didn't get the impression that Lynnie "installed" a bodyguard with her
P's most recent target. She was just musing when she suggested that this was a cure-all of sorts. However, I think that based on her observation (that her P started to show interest in her, again, when there was an obstacle of sorts) it does demonstrate what many of us have read over and over again.....how the P's move on to the next target.
If there isn't one in place within their usual cycling time period, they will (perhaps) go back to the most recent victim or easy mark (family member/relative?).
For me the psyche of a P is similar to observing a mouse trying to navigate a very complicated maze for the first time. The mouse moves rapidly, but unknowingly, through the confusing puzzle. Perhaps there are temptations scattered along the way...small pieces of something tasty (the victims) that the mouse can devour. But while this mouse is finishing one piece...it can smell the next one. Just a thought.
Rick

Lynnie,

It seems that when they are being 'nice', they do such a good job of it that they worm their way so deep into our hearts that it is almost impossible to believe the 'bad' P really exists. And our brains are made in such a way that we tend to forget how bad the pain really is, when things are unbearable. (Like a mother forgets how bad labour pains are once she has her baby in her arms). And that is just why P's can fool you into going back to them time and time again; why we keep coming back for more and getting hurt all over again. Unfortunately the 'good' P is no more than an illusion; he is not a real person and you can never, ever gain his love because he has none. We have to believe that and be strong in staying away from them; it is our only hope. It's going to be hard for you if he is trying to come back into your life, but stay strong. You are worth much more than he can give you.

I've just finished rereading all the posts in this thread and it's been very helpful. I feel like I'm participating in a group therapy session!

I am now "forced" to have weekly interactions with P. He hasn't (yet) given up on showing up at league, and I can't bear to quit. Last night he had his charming, fun P mask on, and I ignored him and didn't make eye contact. He's ignoring me for the time being, so it's working out but is quite uncomfortable.

I am no longer a nervous mess when he shows up, but I do have a lot of unresolved anger and am experiencing that bizarre guilt about ignoring him. It has been coming out in the form of bad dreams and obsessing about the whole thing the next day.

When will these negative feelings go away? How do I get to the next step in the grieving process?

My friends think his showing up and ignoring me is the calm before the storm - that he won't go away until he explodes again. I just can't bear to think that I'm going to have to deal with this indefinitely. And I feel so badly for all of you who have to deal with so much worse.

Sincerely,

Lynne

Lynnie,

I can't remember if your P has his sites set on a new target or not. If not, once he finds one he will move on eventually. P's discard people like we would swat a mosquito. If he feels he is still getting a rise out of you...or is waiting for you to break, somehow.... it may just be his way of exhibiting dominance and control. Don't buy into it. If you enjoy your league continue going. What kind of a league is it if you don't mind my asking? If this league involves sport where you would be competing directly against your P...that would be a tough situation for anyone, even if they were dealing with a recent ex-partner.. P or not.
I have to drive in my P's neighborhood from time to time for work related business...so I know that sense of dread. I couldn't imagine having to square off with my P once a week in the same room. I sometimes wonder if this sense of foreboding and devastation ever goes away completely. Like anything, with time I imagine it gets better. Are there any forum readers that have been "P-free" for 5, 10, 15, 20 years? We would love your feedback. Please weigh in.

Rick

>>> I can't remember if your P has his sites set on a new target or not. If not, once he finds one he will move on eventually. P's discard people like we would swat a mosquito. <<<

I know he is upset that his ex-wife is seeing a very brawny guy that P can't intimidate. I think I had a couple months of "no contact" because he was focused on the ex-wife and her new relationship. And I'm pretty sure he's always on the lookout for new targets. I noticed him being charming with a new girl on the league last night - I don't think he was all that interested in her, but her eyes lit up with the attention. It's amazing the way he can work a crowd.

Thanks for the suggested read - The Devil in the White City - I've just started and it's uncanny how the author caught the P personality. I see my P in just about every page.

>>> If he feels he is still getting a rise out of you...or is waiting for you to break, somehow.... it may just be his way of exhibiting dominance and control. Don't buy into it. If you enjoy your league continue going. <<<

I'm glad you didn't advise me to quit, because I really enjoy it and don't want to be intimidated by him. I guess I should use the time to desensitize myself to seeing him and practice self-control. As long as he doesn't get a rise out of me, I win and (hopefully) he will tire of his latest game and find a new one somewhere else.

I had a very interesting physiological reaction when I saw him last night - instead of that "punch in the gut" feeling I started yawning uncontrollably. I wasn't tired - I think I was subconsciously taking your advice to act bored!

>>> What kind of a league is it if you don't mind my asking? If this league involves sport where you would be competing directly against your P...that would be a tough situation for anyone, even if they were dealing with a recent ex-partner.. P or not. <<<

It's a pool league, and it's possible (but not too likely) that I would have to play against him. The last couple weeks we have played on tables next to each other which was very strange. Last night he lost pretty badly, so I'm hoping his ego won't allow him to be seen as weak in my eyes and he'll quit the league.

>>> I have to drive in my P's neighborhood from time to time for work related business...so I know that sense of dread. I couldn't imagine having to square off with my P once a week in the same room. I sometimes wonder if this sense of foreboding and devastation ever goes away completely. Like anything, with time I imagine it gets better. <<<

I'm wondering if weekly "non"-interactions with him will help me get through this whole thing, or if it will set me back. It feels like a setback at the time, and during the next day or two, but it may help to make my resolve stronger over time. Time will tell.

>>> Are there any forum readers that have been "P-free" for 5, 10, 15, 20 years? We would love your feedback. <<<

When I first discovered this site, I read tons of posts. I noticed that most people seem to go through a similar healing progression and eventually stop posting. As they stop posting, newly enlightened P targets begin posting their stories. I'd be surprised if there are a lot of people reading who have been P free for years. Hopefully, they are all living joyful P-free lives and aren't still trying to process all this pain by participating here

Rick

I just want to note here that you keep coming back to the point that they all move on to torture someone else.

Why are you so exactly sure that they move on? If I could depend on that, I believe my life would be a picnic... but mine does not see able to move past me however long I ignore him (20 months?).

Kind regards

K.T.

Lynnie,

Yes, I remember the situation now. I should have re-read some earlier postings.

I am so glad you are reading The Devil in the White City. One of my best friends recommended it to me. Oddly, he was reading it when I was in the middle of dealing with my P. Needless to say he told me I must read this book. I would be interested in hearing more feedback from you as you read it.

Rick

K.T.

Every single P is unto himself/herself. No two are alike completely. From my own experience, and from what I have read cover and over again, most P's do move on to new victims once they no longer get a source of narcissistic supply from the most recent. So, on some level your P may think you are capable of this.....or you are a member of his "core group." Most often this core group includes at least one member of the P's family...or others that "provide"
for the P in some way, shape or form. Several researchers
have touched on this...but I don't think anyone has gone into great depth.
So, for whatever reason....your P keeps popping up. Maybe
he gets some sort of satisfaction thinking that you are always "on edge" ?

Rick

Lynnie,

I am curious if you have read further in Devil in the White City and any thought/comments you might have. Other than that, I hope that all is well with you.

Rick

I agree Ali. The saddest part is that the P, because they lack the ability to empathize so they don't really care about the victim and frankly can't seem to see the victim's pain, pick on precisely the vulnerable person that will find their game devastating. I think it's interesting that some of my personal friends who are tough and cynical see through my ex husband easily.

I have after years begun to heal. Although the funny part is that I realize that I am vulnerable to the "nice" facade still. So it seems good that I believe my P has disappeared for good. I kind of know it in my bones. He has had a relapse on cocaine, said he was going into a 28 day program. That was a week ago and he hasn't called to let us (his 19 year old daughter and myself) how he is doing.

I haven't told my daughter he relapsed, and I won't if he shows up, but if doesn't I will have to let her know.

The reason I think he is gone is that he undertook and kept up sending us a montly amount that was quite generous even though there is no court order. I think once he has relapsed he may not be able to continue to do well financially. Rather than continue with the pressure to produce I think he's going to leave. I don't know why I am almost sure this is the case. It is eerie to think that he will vanish without a trace. But I just feel so sure. I don't know why, it's virtually psychic.

Algaringo

Hi, Rick -

I've read about half of "The Devil in the White City". It's really quite good - and chilling. Larson turns a phrase in such a way that a few words evoke a memory of my P's behavior. Very creepy, but good for me since P looks like he's enjoying keeping tabs on me once a week.

The first couple weeks that P showed up he looked a bit freaked out, but lately he seems to be getting the mask back into place. He's turning on the charm with a bunch of my acquaintances. He's careful not to talk to any of my real friends because they know the story. He gave me a big, fake smile the other night - our first eye contact. I looked away and continued ignoring. It's very difficult because I feel like a jerk for being so antisocial toward him, but I don't want to end up like one of Holmes' many victims!

I hope you are doing better in the journey than I am at the moment...Lynne

Lynnie,

"Larson turns a phrase in such a way that a few words evoke a memory of my P's behavior. Very creepy..."
Yes, that is exactly what I experienced when I was reading the book. There were emotions, feelings, suspicions, hints & clues that I felt...but were not able to consciously recognize nor put into words. It really jogged my memory to a degree that I actually went into a bit of a tailspin/relapse....as if I were living through it again. And on a certain level you can draw the analogy that, although H.H. Holmes was a serial killer and left a trail of bodies.... most of the P's that we forum members have encountered (hopefully) are leaving a similar trail of fractured lives.

Rick

>>> It really jogged my memory to a degree that I actually went into a bit of a tailspin/relapse....as if I were living through it again. <<<

That's exactly how I feel when reading the book. I have remembered details that I had suppressed for quite some time. I'm not sure if this is good or bad in terms of healing, but it's interesting how the journey back to normalcy is not a straight line - it seems very circular at times. And it doesn't help that P is in my face on a weekly basis - I look like the one with problems because I can't even allow myself to make eye contact with him.

"I have remembered details that I had suppressed for quite some time. I'm not sure if this is good or bad in terms of healing, but it's interesting how the journey back to normalcy is not a straight line - it seems very circular at times. "

That is exactly how I felt reading the book. I remembered events and subtle details that I had supressed or hadn't even noticed at the time. That is precisely why I found the book so scary. When you read a textbook or research article the information can be enlightening, confirming & comforting in a way. But, as I have stated before, this book addresses the many viewpoints and personalities that are involved in relationship with a P. It is quite well-rounded in that respect.
Ultimately, for me, I think it will help in my healing. I think the tailspin was worth it in a way...in this instance. Oddly, the recently released movie Matchstick Men had a similar effect on me. I think it is because it portrays a group of people that are con men.... people that are not presenting themselves in a truthful manner. There is a hidden agenda. And with P's it is very much the same deal.
I feel truly sorry for you that you have to face your P on a weekly basis. I don't think I would be able to handle it.... knowing what I know. I have recognized other aquaintances as having very P-like personalities and traits....and it doesn't bother me to interact with them. BUT....I was not intimately involved with any of these people.

Rick

Matchstick Men is on my list of movies I want to see - I seem to be drawn to those types of movies lately. One of the last movies I saw with P was Catch Me If You Can (which is based on a con artist who posed as an airline pilot, doctor, etc). At the end of the movie, P laughed and said he probably shouldn't have taken me to that particular movie.

I was reading Devil in the White City today, and I had a couple more memories of things P told me during our relationship that I had somehow managed to discount at the time.

One incident was that he was arguing with his (then) wife in the car, and she jumped out and started walking home since they were still in their neighborhood. He decided to scare her by backing up really fast. At the last minute, he swerved and ended up rolling the car to avoid hitting her. He ended up getting fired because a neighbor that P worked with reported it to their boss.

In the second incident, P blurted out that he was responsible for a man's death. It turned out that someone P had worked with (and I suspect bullied) had committed suicide.

The strange thing is that I completely dismissed these stories at the time. Why didn't I "run screaming" when P was giving me so many clues as to his character?

Lynnie...

Yes, Catch Me If You Can was another one that I found disturbing. However, it was presented in such a lighthearted way that it didn't haunt me. There is one scene, in particular, that stands out in my memory. The main character is due to marry a wealthy southern girl. At their engagement party he has to leave suddenly because the FBI is hot on his trail. He, basically, has to "come clean" to his finacee and leaves her standing, alone, in the bedroom. The look on her face clearly indicates that she understands what has happened.... she has been "taken." This is her "lightbulb" moment. As conscious victims of P's.... we've all been there.

Rick

The other interesting thing about Catch Me If You Can is that it glorifies (instead of villifies) the main character (for the most part). He's very likable, and I found myself hoping he'd be okay - and silently cheering for him each time he narrowly escaped being caught in one of his cons.

I guess the movie got that part right - we'll forgive a P anything as long as they don't physically hurt anyone. And I think P's know that and use it to their advantage to manipulate their targets.

Lynnie,

I agree, entirely, with your last posting. You are correct about the movie glorifying the main character. And, yes, most people do tend to forgive P's and they do use this to their advantage.
A friend of mine asked me, today, why it is that we keep pining over someone that we consciously know is not right for us.... whether they are P's or not. I think it is because when someone, anyone, pushes the right buttons, says the right things, etc.... there is something deep (on a cellular level) that strikes a chord in our emotions, our spirit, our soul. We can't get away from it. I guess this is all part of being a healthy, well rounded person. But damn, it can be so frustrating.

Rick

>>> A friend of mine asked me, today, why it is that we keep pining over someone that we consciously know is not right for us.... <<<

This is an interesting point. It's weird that some people are relatively easy to get over (strangely, I had very little difficulty moving on from my ex-husband).

P had me wrapped up in his drama and the illusion of true love he created. I spent so much time and energy trying to understand his abnormal behaviour - and trying to support him. I think I was hooked (and pining) because I had invested so much emotionally and had so many unanswered questions.

After the relationship ended, I was reeling from it all. Thank goodness I stumbled around the internet and "diagnosed" his personality disorder and discovered this forum. I still have a lot of healing to do, but at least I'm no longer obsessed by all the questions that had been running through my head.

Lynnie,

"wrapped up in his drama and the illusion of true love he created"

I think you hit it right on the head. Yes, we get wrapped up in the illusion. And even though we now know the truth we can't help but think about the situation....searching for more clues, warning signs & indications. It's human nature.

Another element is the "car crash" theory...or so I call it.
We can't help but look. P's are fascinating in a pathetic way.

Rick

Rick,

I laughed out loud at your "car crash" theory - so true!

I sometimes fantasize about how it would be to be friends with P - just so I could observe his behaviour knowing what I know now. Other times I think it would be fun to confront him with a description of APD - to see if he knows or not (I suspect he does).

But I soon come to my senses and realize I'm not up for the regular (figurative) beatings. I don't want to be part of the car wreck!

Lynne

>>> I feel truly sorry for you that you have to face your P on a weekly basis. I don't think I would be able to handle it.... knowing what I know. <<<

An interesting thing is happening, Rick. I'm beginning to think that running into P on a weekly basis is actually helping in my healing process. I'm becoming desensitized to his presence. I'm also resolving some things that are brought up by running into him - things that I would suppress if I didn't see him regularly. Also, I've stopped looking over my shoulder all the time - I'm no longer afraid of running into him.

I still have not even said hello to him. And instead of diverting my eyes when I see him looking at me, I was able to look right through him yesterday. He was bragging to a friend about how great his life is, and I knew it was all part of the act - that he was still hiding behind his mask. I didn't feel like I was missing something - instead I felt happy that he's not in my life making me crazy.

Perhaps these weekly interactions are a blessing instead of a curse...Lynne

Lynnie,

I can imagine that the exposure would actually work to your advantage after a while.... depending on the situation at least. I'm happy that you are in a better place and feeling more comfortable with the weekly contact. One question, though, if it is even pertinent at this time. Has your frame of mind changed to the point that you think you could open yourself up to the possibility of being involved with another person?

For me, no contact is still the best at this time. I have found that the longer I am away from my P the healthier I feel about myself, etc... The memories, remembrances and
pain is fading. I rarely obsess about the situation any more. Sometimes I go off on a mini-tailspin, but it doesn't last for long.

Rick

>>> I can imagine that the exposure would actually work to your advantage after a while.... depending on the situation at least. I'm happy that you are in a better place and feeling more comfortable with the weekly contact. <<<

Several weeks ago when P started showing up, I didn't imagine that I might become desensitized to his presence. I just prepared myself for the worst each week. I think it helps that he hasn't been aggressive toward me or my friends. He's making his presence known and doing his "life of the party" act for anyone who will listen, but it just reinforces that I made the right decision to get out of that relationship and maintain a "no contact" policy.

>>> One question, though, if it is even pertinent at this time. Has your frame of mind changed to the point that you think you could open yourself up to the possibility of being involved with another person? <<<

I have been involved with someone since the relationship with P ended. The new guy ("Q") was a friend I hung out with when P was going through the many dumping phases of his cycles. Q happened to ask me out when I experienced the "last straw" with P. Q has been very understanding, supportive, and attentive and has almost literally saved my life - certainly my sanity. Q is a wonderful person, but I still find myself holding back. I'm not sure I will ever let myself love so irrationally again. Also, I'm still having a little trouble trusting my instincts after denying them during my relationship with P. So while I am involved in a good relationship, there is still a part of me that is being overly cautious.

>>> For me, no contact is still the best at this time. I have found that the longer I am away from my P the healthier I feel about myself, etc... The memories, remembrances and
pain is fading. I rarely obsess about the situation any more. Sometimes I go off on a mini-tailspin, but it doesn't last for long. <<<

I'm glad you are feeling better. It definitely helps when the recovery time from the tailspin gets shorter and the time between tailspins get longer. You can tell that you're making progress in the right direction.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I just read a very insightful article, "Love and Stockholm Syndrome: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser".

It describes why victims stay in abusive relationships. It also had good advice for friends and relatives of victims.

Love and Stockhold Syndrome

**edited to make link clickable, Di

Lynnie, Excellent article. Thank you for posting it. For those of us that are trying the "no contact" rule it is alway helpful to be reminded of how we felt while we were in the thick of it. Yes, this article brings back a lot of feelings, situations and memories. I have a friend that has recently seperated from a P. I recognized the situation more than 8 months ago but my friend did not want to see it..... as the article clearly spells out. Now my friend is in that emotionally charged state... crying at the drop of a hat, the deep pit of emptiness in the stomach, confusion, wanting to be with the other person but knowing it is not the right thing to do, etc..... All that I could say to him was that it will get better the more he is away from his ex. And to all of the people out there that are reading this....trust me, it does get better. I recently hit a milestone and I felt like the spell from my P was lifted and I feel great. There are many days that my P doesn't even cross my mind and I don't obsess about him any more. Believe me, the longer you go without having contact with your P the better !!!! Rick

I do beleive that within his "capacity" to love and within his concept of "love" he loves me. however there is no feeling of being "in love".
I know ...sick thinking huh?

I've just read one of your posts - dated quite a while ago - and I wondered whether you were still using this forum? I simply couldn't believe how similar your experiences are to mine. Almost every sentence you wrote could have been written or uttered by me. I've only recently come across this site and I'm still trying to get my head around navagating it successfully. However, fate kind of led me to yours and here I am responding. Have you been able to stay away from your ex? Does your life resemble, once again, the life you had before you became involved with him? I apologise if this is bad timing or if it brings back painful memories ... it's just that I could relate so well to what you expressed and it compelled me to contact you.

Hi Clarity,

Welcome!

Since most P's have the same MO, I think that you'll find that many of the posts here resemble each other even though they are written by very different people.

When I started reading posts, just a few months ago, I thought, " I could've written that AND that." It was so uncanny to be among other people who had experienced the same horrific relationship. It was such a relief to realise that I'm not the only one who was led down the garden path by a P and I felt that I could look at the experience in a more objective manner.

I don't know about others here, but my life will never be as it was. I'm sadder but also wiser now. Still, the experience continue to reverberate through my mind. Right now the all-pervading thought is why did he do it? I know that the answer must be, 'because he could', but somehow it doesn't satisfy.

I think we can all in various ways relate to each others stories. I for one have found this forum and the people here, very helpful. I am glad you found us.

Regards,

Nan

Nan,
Thanks for replying so quickly.
I feel I'm in the wrong thread here - although I'd love to jump right into this topic. However, I'd first like to tell you all a little about what's been going on and how I feel right now. I attached a document to my initial email but I'm not sure whether you were able to view it. I've just spent the entire evening on this brilliant site and now I understand how to move around ...! Consequently, I'll introduce myself in one of the new forum threads. Hope you find me there...

Hi Clarity,

Thanks, yes, I found your post in New Forum members.

Please rest assurred that every one of your feelings and experiences with this man can be corroborated bu almost anyone here.

Please believe me when I tell you that you are NOT crazy. You are a sane, intelligent woman caught in the sticky web of a nasty 'spider' whose behaviour has slowly ground you down to the point where you question your sanity and your intelligence.

It's a journey I recognize. I too, started doubted what I knew was the truth. I too started thinking that I'd completely lost my mind, not to mention my intelligence.

P's are SO good at making you feel that you are the insane, unreasonable and crazy one in the relationship, when the fact of the matter is that it's the P who answers(not that he's agree to that) to all these labels.

There is nothing you can do to change to this man. NOTHING! No matter what he says - no matter what promises he makes, please believe that he has no intention of keeping his word or abiding by the promises he makes. All he wants is to take you for another long emotional ride to hell in a handbasket.

Does this man sound like a P? Yes he does, but only you will know for certain. The point is that no matter what he really is and P is a very good guess on your part, he does not have your best at heart. He never will! The only person that he cares about is himself.

You write that from the time you met him and till now, you have lost all sense of yourself as a capable woman who can make strong independent decisions. As long as you stay with him, you will continue to feel this way. He is NOT going to allow the strong, independent woman to come back. Such a woman doesn't serve his agenda, whereas a simpering fool does. I too was such a simpering fool. I hardly recognised myself and I surely didn't think that I would ever sink so low, but I did! It's a horrible state of mind and I feel for you.

I got out and I am GLAD. Now my life is, once again, starting to make sense and I can see the sun and smell the roses. Not every day, but almost every day.

If I understand you correctly, you have no children of your own. Is that correct?

Please consider getting out of the relationship. Move FAR away. Have NO contact with the P. I know it's hard and I know it's fraught with practical and financial difficulty but once you're out the fog will lift. I promise you!

You once had all your ducks in a row and you can do it again. Think of it as a business challenge. Write out what you need to do A then B and then C and then do it.

You sound like woman who knows how to get things done. It may seem to you that you have forgotten, but your letter tells me that you know how.

First though, you have to make it clear to yourself that you're in a relationship with a manipulator par excellence. You will NOT win no matter what you do - no matter what you say to him. The only way to win is to get out and to stay out.

Most of all, please believe that hidden just behind the simpering fool is a strong, capable and intelligent woman -YOU!

Hugs,

Nan

Dear Nan,

Thank you so much for your response!! Your strength really shone through… You sound like an incredibly strong and wise woman and you have been able to remind me of the qualities I once possessed -- and still do, as you so rightly state. It is just a matter of rediscovering these strengths and utilizing them once again. I found your words so comforting and reassuring. Everything you had to say made perfect sense and I realise that should I stay in this relationship, under any false illusions that things may change, I'll be in for one hell of an emotional ride! However, you are right in assuming that my situation is fraught with practical and financial restraints. Due to this, I'm unable to move out as quickly as I would like to, or as quickly as I should, making everything so much more unbearable. He realizes that, for the time being, I am 'trapped' and I realise that this brings him immense pleasure and serves his purposes to no end.


Having said as much, I am far more aware of what I have got myself into and my eyes are now open as to the kind of person I am dealing with. Armed with such information, it does help to protect oneself slightly more (keep in mind that an enormous amount of emotional damage has already been done, so ones normal survival skills are much reduced…)


I, too, understand that there is nothing within my power to change the way he is. It does become difficult though when you remember the better times that were had and the glimpses of normal behavior that occurred. A part of me really wants to believe that there is a decent, loving person inside there, capable of leading a normal life but I guess I'm not going to be the one to discover whether this is the case or not.


The children I mentioned are from his previous relationships -- I do not have any of my own. (Yet!!) Not for lack of trying or making plans to do so. The timing was never 'right', according to him. This was something 'we'd do in the future…' Like so many other promises and plans that were made, nothing ever came to fruition. In fact, any structural undertaking around the house (of any size) was always abandoned, incomplete. I used to joke about this -- I now understand that it's a common trait. As is the fascination with weapons. He has a favorite knife that is always used, regardless of the task; to eat with, make sculptures, open beer bottles, fiddle with absentmindedly… Going back to the subject of children though, I know I should (and do) count my blessings that I do not have to worry about having the ever-lasting bond we would have had created with 'little ones…'


I performed the Hare test and scored wonderfully well. I wasn't surprised at this stage. I expected the result. What I didn't expect was to diagnose my brother at the same time. My brother's traits are so much more obvious (and violent) yet I was completely oblivious (or unwilling to admit) to the seriousness of his illness. It makes so much sense now. My being in this current relationship makes more sense to me. It's as though growing up with a psychopath in my life as an adoring older brother has given me a foundation upon which I would always lay my future relationships. This additional explanation does not exonerate P for his 'crimes' in any way, I have still been cruelly conned by this man, but I believe it may have been made easier for him because, for reasons I want to investigate further, I perhaps naturally gravitate towards people of this nature. My P actually warned me of having a relationship with him at the beginning. I waved it off; told him I was a grown-up and could look after myself. Besides, I wasn't thinking about having a full-blown relationship with him at that stage. He changed all of that with his very focused and intense wooing. But I did see the signs, the red flags and I ignored them. Hence my little theory…


You appear to have made real progress with your situation. Your letter smacks of a person in control of her life. A question though … doesn't it hold you back in any way, to perpetually hear stories regarding a subject that you suffered so greatly from? I am keenly sensitive to this whilst reading stories from the forum and thinking of contacting some of the authors.


Nan, I really want to thank you again for taking the time to write to me in such a personal manner. You've given me a sense of pride again and made me believe in myself again. I am working very hard at all of this, but to have someone give you that extra nudge makes the world of difference. Particularly when they know exactly what you're talking about!


A big hug straight back at you.

Clarity

Dear Clarity,

Thank you for the lovely words about my strengths – they fell on a dry spot. However, please remember that communication like this doesn’t occur in a vacuum. I responded to a part of your communication and my response was based on what you wrote.

To answer your question: “….doesn't it hold you back in any way, to perpetually hear stories regarding a subject that you suffered so greatly from?”

No, not at all! Please don’t worry. I’m not through with this subject and I discover many useful and interesting facts, emotions and ways of dealing with it all, simply by reading other people’s posts and by writing a reply. Writing is very cathartic for me and I think that’s true for many people here.

“I am keenly sensitive to this whilst reading stories from the forum and thinking of contacting some of the authors.”

I sincerely doubt that you have to worry about contacting any of the posters in this forum. I have received nothing but kind and thoughtful replies to my inquiries. As well, we all use an alias for protection.

“…I realise that should I stay in this relationship, under any false illusions that things may change, I'll be in for one hell of an emotional ride! “

Please be aware that false illusions or no, you’ll be in a for a ride. “They” say that knowledge is power and of course, it’s important, but in dealing with a P, knowledge doesn’t get you very far. A P will simply change his tactics to suit the new situation or he’ll up the ante.

“He realizes that, for the time being, I am 'trapped' and I realise that this brings him immense pleasure and serves his purposes to no end.”

Exactly!

”Having said as much, I am far more aware of what I have got myself into and my eyes are now open as to the kind of person I am dealing with. Armed with such information, it does help to protect oneself slightly more (keep in mind that an enormous amount of emotional damage has already been done, so ones normal survival skills are much reduced…) “

Yes, your survival skills will likely be somewhat impaired. Ali’s advice to consider the help of a psychologist or psychiatrist is right on target. From the book, ‘Charmer and Tyrant’ by Alv Dahl and Aud Dalsegg,.comes this advice, which I’m quoting from memory. The authors suggest that whatever you do, it’s important to hold your cards close to your body. Don’t tell him that you know what he is. Don’t tell him what your plans are. Please don’t tell him anything.

They also suggest ways of minimizing the inevitable fights and temper tantrums. If he starts a complaint about XYZ, instead of defending yourself about why, you simply say, “ Yes, you’re right! The dinner was late/the kitchen is a mess/the children are noisy/your shirt isn’t ironed,” as a response to whatever he says is wrong. By agreeing with him, you take a bit of the wind out of his sails. As well, you avoid being on the defensive, which is what he wants. When you’re defensive and submissive he can play his games of attack and dominance.

Please do not make the mistake of telling him that you plan to move out. He’ll stop you for he needs you. He needs you to be his mirror. He needs you for totally selfish reasons that have NOTHING to do with love. His needing you is NOT based on love or affection or trust or any of the usual reasons why a partner will feel deep sadness and sorrow at the prospect of losing a friend and mate. This man found you. You’re his property. He used you. He conned you. He took your money. He took your pride and your innocence. If he is violent, (and most P’s are) he may beat you up, hurt you physically or even take your life. Telling him what you plan to do will make him up the ante in ways that you cannot foresee.

”A part of me really wants to believe that there is a decent, loving person inside there, capable of leading a normal life…”

Of course, you want to believe that. It’s human nature. To believe otherwise, we have to accept that we loved someone who didn’t love us back. Waking up to the awareness that we were used, abused and manipulated instead of loved, honoured and cherished, is SO difficult and heartbreaking that many of us here still have trouble believing it, hence the name of the thread.

Every day, the P I knew enters my mind in some way or other and I’m forced to deal with the fact that in this case out of sight doesn’t mean out of mind. I can go through the same incident over and over, looking at it from every conceivable angle until I’m blue in the face. I don’t want to think about the things he did. I don’t miss him, not even a little, but I suspect that he will continue to be a ghostly factor for a while – or at least till I have made peace with myself – till I’ve accepted what I know is true, namely that he didn’t care about me, that it was an illusion.

“…but I guess I'm not going to be the one to discover whether this is the case or not.“

The women who came before you - the women who will come after you, and believe me, he will quickly find another woman, no one will ever discover such a thing for truly this man is NOT a decent, loving person, capable of leading a normal life. If you allow yourself to think this, you will be doing yourself a huge disfavour.

”I performed the Hare test and scored wonderfully well.”

I am glad that Ali told you about this. One of the reasons why this forum is such a good place is that you’ll get the benefit of many different people’s point of view. The Hare test is a great tool. However, I am a little confused. You scored yourself, or you scored your partner? Or both?

“It makes so much sense now…..for reasons I want to investigate further, I perhaps naturally gravitate towards people of this nature.”

There is some evidence that support the fact that the victims of psychopaths “naturally gravitate towards people of this nature.” Often, the victims are people who are naturally kind and supportive toward people who have had a hard time of it. People with an idealistic worldview or people with high ethical and moral values often have a hard time believing that other people can behave in ways that are so totally foreign – it simply isn’t part of their worldview. There are many and varied explanations for why we fall for the charms of a psychopath.

“My P actually warned me of having a relationship with him at the beginning.”

Oh yes! The P I knew did the very same thing. I was told in very clear terms that he was this and that, though of course, he never said that he is a psychopath, he simply pointed out the different facets of his personality. I should have believed him, but like you, I waved it off.

“But I did see the signs, the red flags and I ignored them.”

Welcome to the club!

We will all do our best to answer any inquiries that you may have and reply to your posts as honestly as we know how. You’re among friends!

So, take heart and write when you can.

Nan

Dear Nan,

First of all, let me clarify one little point. Again, I use some sarcasm in my tone, which is where the confusion arose in my last post.


”I performed the Hare test and scored wonderfully well.”


NOT ME! (LOL) I did the test on P's behalf, like all of you!! I'm sorry I placed a double meaning there. That wasn't my intention and my flippancy was obviously highly inappropriate...


I want to insert a reply to Ali here as well, and then I can continue and write to the 2 of you
at the same time.


Ali,


Thanks for your speedy response and sorry it's taken me this long to reply and thank you. Your words, like Nan's, were of enormous comfort and having my feelings validated is helping to
keep all of this under some kind of control. It also helps me to stay faithful to my beliefs (i.e., I'm
not the crazy one here!) and I think that with continued communication and support from those on the forum, it'll be that much easier to make the break.


Yes, I am rather concerned about my state of mind and due to this I have arranged to seek
counseling. This should start next week. I do have my doubts about this though -- I do not want to wallow in issues arising from my past. I want to focus on what is taking place at this moment in time, and from past experiences, albeit very limited, analysts seem to want to take you back in order to deal with the present. Having said this, there is a connection I have made with my childhood and adolescence, which revolves around my brother (also a P), so perhaps in this case it would behoove me to 'dig around a little.'


Yesterday I received a call from my P (he is currently away on a project), asking for my assistance in certain matters. I happened to be in the middle of my daily research on P's. Has this helped me? Yes, and no, but a small 'no.' I still felt a mixture of alarm and confusion. This, from merely hearing his voice! My confusion stemmed from an eagerness to hand out the required information -- am I still wanting to please this man?! Next came the plea for sympathy and compassion and the feigned act of concern. "I'm really lonely out here ... how are you doing?" , etc., etc. Incredible!! His audacity is astounding but I know it's far more complicated than this but it just never ceases to amaze me.…


I simply cast to one side, any thoughts of him being 'lonely' and perhaps sad. We know this isn't the case. Yes, they are able to miss the company of others as normal people do, but it derives from having nobody to adore them, to serve their purposes, to demean, to humiliate ... to ultimately control. From feeling 'lonely' I know that he'll need to remedy this ASAP, which will probably manifest itself in seeking solace in the first kind, nurturing, unassuming female who happens to fall in his path. Thankfully, he will not be there long enough to build a relationship -- but I remind myself that this is exactly how we started out:-


A short period together, away on a project ... him feeling sad and lonely (experiencing problems back home relating to a separation) and then, when back home, the onslaught of wonderfully, romantic emails leading to meeting up again and the nightmare starting. If only I knew then what I know now. If only I could be there to warn his next 'target.' But these future women will not listen anyway. It would impossible for them to imagine this enigmatic, charismatic, insanely charming, intelligent, handsome, kind, funny ... yes, funny and 'caring' person to be the abuser I'd be trying to describe.


Besides, a part of me feels it is not my responsibility to interfere. Nor do I have the strength to remain in his life in this way.


Very little time goes by without me thinking about him or the situation; about things that have happened, things that have been said... I find this sooo draining. I seem to be utterly consumed by it. I go to sleep far too late and every rising thought is to do with him. Not the best way in which to start one's day. I know this road to recovery is going to be a very long and painful one. I just want it to be over now. I want to be happy and lively again -- all the time. I do go through periods of feeling fine and they become more frequent. I try not to spent too much time alone and I'm seeing my friends again and being sociable but the negative thoughts seem to be constantly lurking like a brooding cloud overhead. I also have to deal with his return, which is not far away. I have a feeling that he'll be back on so-called 'good behavior' because he'll notice a big difference in me. There'll be more energy that he will pick up on, more energy that he'll need to feed on.


Your advice re. "minimizing the inevitable fights and temper tantrums," is very good advise and something that I had naturally begun to do. It will serve me very well during this next period.


I keep wanting to thank you! And so I shall - THANK YOU!!


Oh, I know what I wanted to ask -- do either of you have new relationships yet? Has this helped to heal some of the wounds? Just wondering what the future holds for people who have had their image of love battered to such a degree....


I'm sure there is hope. In fact, I like to believe that what may come will surpass our most wishful dreams!


Clarity.
more & more with each passing day.

Hi Clarity

Glad you will be in counselling soon. I hope you get a counsellor who will take you seriously re the P issue, and will work with you on the issues that bother you. If this doesn't happen once you have had time to build up a rapport with him/her, change him or her for another one. And hang onto the fact that as you say, you are NOT the crazy one! Hope you keep us up to date with how it goes.

Have you had time to do much reading yet? I've found a place where you can download Hervey Cleckley's 'Mask of Sanity' from the internet (its apparently out of print and hard to get, so they have permission to make it available in this form) Hervey Cleckley's 'Mask of Sanity' Its in PDF form so if you don't already have Acrobat reader you may need to download it from the Acrobat website. We've just started going through sections of it in our support group (yes guys, the support group is finally happening - just had our second meeting, and its actually great to be able to discuss this excellent book with other victims and a qualified counsellor). Very much recommend it.

When does P get back? Hope not too soon, as the more you can read and come to terms with before seeing him again, the better it will be for you.

You asked about post-P relationships - this is something I still have a problem with, and in fact is how I came to find this forum. But no doubt I will get my head around it in time, and it sounds like other ex-victims have managed to find loving partners and have good relationships.

All the best

**edited to make link clickable, scroll to right hand side to see the book, Di

Hi Ali, hello Clarity

just time to have a quick dip - and got the link you posted so thanks for that - now I can read the book at my leisure.

I am facing up to another row with my ex-solicitors - i.e. still fighting the aftermath after 5 years! I wonder if there will ever be away to get the "system" to listen and protect people form the male and female Ps in this world. How can we help to start something - without putting our children back in risk from their P parent?


Hope all your lives keep getting better

Recovery

Hi Recovery

Sorry you're having legal problems again. What is actually happening with all this now? Where do you stand legally, and is it still a problem for you to go home?

I agree that we need to somehow team up and start raising awareness as well as probably doing some lobbying re P's and the law.

I hope you manage to get it sorted out.

All the best

Hi Ali

Well nothing new is happening - its all aftermath. This one was about my solicitors. I was trying to have the law society look at the case and take action agasinst the solicitor as her lack of action/belief etc played a massive part in my ex escaping from his actions.
They went through everything - not - took them 2 years - and said she acted professionally - despite giving out our adddress twice to my ex, and refusing to get the court to look at his psychiatric record,and what he had done etc etc . I could go on in detail. But it boils down to the fact that each and every government department, external organisation, legal firm etc has a complaints system - but they are all self govering and mainly run by their fellow professionals and so are highly ineffective at policing themselves. So no matter what procedures and policies exist the P slips through because the professional is taken in by them and when the masks slips then self preservation kicks in - not protect the children - well that has been my experience.
And - though the pleasure of losing everything cost me £12-15000 in legal fees befor I got legal aid. The solicitor is still trying to get me to pay another £3000 for work she said was done but which was not billed until 6 months later - by then I was penniless, jobless on legal aid etc and living down here. But technically I am supposed to penalise my daughter more to find money to pay them for helping this all to happen! It makes my blood boil. I am still working out what to do next. I have never been in debt before and I don't want to be now. Yet I am certainly sooooooo unwilling to be forced into paying money I can't afford for a service I did not get.

It also meant that legally he has still full rights over our daughter. At any time - if the mood suits - he could start up again.

My family would like us to move back in the hope he would leave us alone. But he wanted us out of the way so he could play his games on others, I can't take the risk of going back unless some of the truth has been made public - but too many people have been used by him to cover up his actions and are too worried for their own position to tell the truth - good old catch 22. Need to go back to expose the truth - can't go back until the truth is out. The key thing being my daughter's safety - both now and the future.

But I still would like to think I could do something to help future victims get a better deal.

Sorry for the spiel - you did ask!!

Hope its better with you.

Recovery

Hi Recovery

I do hope you can get it sorted out. It seems criminal to have to pay so much money to someone who failed to protect your child. And it must make it very hard for you to get on with life with all of this still hanging over you.

There must be SOMETHING we can do about the legal status of P's and children, if we put our minds to it. In fact, the United Nations Declaration of Rights includes clauses about children's rights to protection, so one could take this kind of thing very high indeed. This is not the right forum for discussing the usefulness of the United Nations in general, but the fact is that governments have signed these rights declarations and are legally bound to abide by them.

I feel that its important that people like you speak out, because without public awareness, nothing will ever be done about it.

Maybe we should start another website purely to gather these kind of stories and ultimately use them to lobby governments etc into revising children's rights in this respect? What do you think?

Hope things sort themselves out for you. Just keep plugging away at it and take it higher up the ladder every time! Hopefully you will finally irritate someone enough to get something done.

Things are pretty good for me at the moment; P has not made any more attempts at contact and I'm feeling much more at peace.

Hang in there and stay strong! All the best.

Hi Ali,

Re: Children's rights and their protection according to the UN.

I think you're on to something.

I wonder what preceedents, if any, there are from the United States Supreme Court.

Does anyone know?

Seems to me that if you can quote legal preceedent to a lawyer you are much better off.

If it sounds reasonable to use preecedent, I'll try to check what's up on the other side of the pond.

Nan

Nan and Ali

I agreee that there should be something - locally by country or via UN or via the EU etc, and I am sure they will all have the policy and procedure. But where it goes wrong is the lack of recognition of what a P is and how they can damage adults let alone children, their own being no exception.
I have no proof - he used his contacts to see to that - so according to the system in which ever institution I can do nothing as I have not got proof.

The destructive nature of the P and the serial nature of their methods is well documented - as on this site - yet their manipulative and lying nature is ignored and they are given every opportunity to weave their stories and play with the system - at what cost to the taxpayer let alone the current victim I dread to think.

Me ex shows the classic P pattern and keeps repeating it with a new limited cast featuring the current victims - I'm sure most P's do the same. Insted of branding both spouses as vindictive etc in a divorce case or similar maybe the assumption should be that if the case is bitter and turning into a feud then maybe it is because of the classic P and their victim struggle. Its a change in mindset of how "feuding couples" are interpreted that is needed. Then the eyes of the system might be open to having a real look at what has caused this. If the dispute is really just 2 people out to hurt each other then they could be helped thru mediation - something that is impossible with a P.

Maybe we need a website purely for lobbying - especially as I am sure a lot of fathers on the father 4 families (or waht ever ) are Ps stil trying to control the system. Others probably have a P for an exwife and are like us in being victims - but we need a voice to say it is unsafe to give (some) fathers /mothers automatic parental rights - .....

Nan - you seem well positioned to head a lobby group - could you? I know my problem is lack of time. But what I have got I would like to put to good use.

Anyway just some thoughts. Thanks for your comments.

Recovery

Hi Nan and Recovery

Like you, Recovery, my problem is time. I have another crisis which is outside the scope of this forum, so I won't go into details. Hopefully if/when that is sorted out, I would like to put a lot of time and effort into the things we have discussed. I agree with you that Nan seems like the right kind of person for this - how do you feel, Nan?

My own feeling is that we should start by setting some objectives; once that's done I can create a prototype website on one of the 'freebie' hosts and perhaps any of us who are interested can work on building it up into something?

My own objectives (at the moment) would be:
1. Lobby for more protection for children affected by psychopaths
2. Raise public awareness of the psychopath problem
3. Lobby for more money to be spent on psychopath research, in the hope that one day this may not be incurable - or at least methods of preventing them from being a menace to society can be improved

What do you all think? Di, I guess you know more about P's than any of us - does all of this sound like a good idea to you?

Hi Ali, whatever gives all of you the power to take back you lives is a great idea. I have started a section for you all to discuss your ideas.

Di

Hi Dianne and Ali,

Re: Children's Rights and legal precedent.

I've found some great sites. Using Goggle I wrote, "Children's Rights" and found this.

Childen's Rights - click here

It's called the Legal Information Institute (LII).

All the items below are clickable.

Will you work your click magic on those, Dianne.

Federal Statutes

· 25 U.S.C., ch. 21 - Indian Child Welfare Act
· 42 U.S.C. § 1983 - Civil Rights of Children
· 42 U.S.C., ch. 67 - Child Abuse Prevention and

Adoption Reform Act

· 42 U.S.C., ch. 7 - Social Security Act
· 42 U.S.C., ch. 6 - The Children's Bureau

Federal Judicial Decisions

· U.S. Supreme Court:
o Recent Decisions Involving Children
o Historic Decisions Involving Children
· U.S. Circuit Courts of Appeals: Recent Decisions Involving Children

I haven't read any of it yet. But I will (smile).

Nan

Hi Nan

That's a great site - have bookmarked it and started looking at some articles.

Since Recovery's problems began in the UK, I followed your example and searched for "children's rights" UK and came up with this one: <a target=blank href=http://www.crights.org.uk/>www.crights.org.uk</a>

Recovery, there is apparently a Children's Rights commissioner in England, also in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland, whose job it is to independently investigate cases where normal channels have failed to produce results. Have you tried this route?<br>

Nan, I'm going to discuss this more in the new forum that Di has opened for us.

All the best

Hi Dusty,
This is an old post and I sure did not read it all as it is long. My answer is absolutely yes but it is not love as love is in its true form. It is the best the P can do and it is destructive and hurtful no matter how hard they try and a force to flee from.

Here's an excerpt from an article I came across "The Hidden Suffering of the Psychopath"
by Willem H.J. Martens, M.D., Ph.D.:

Psychopaths can suffer emotional pain for a variety of reasons. Like anyone else, psychopaths have a deep wish to be loved and cared for. This desire remains frequently unfulfilled, however, as it is obviously not easy for another person to get close to someone with such repellent personality characteristics. Psychopaths are at least periodically aware of the effects of their behavior on others and can be genuinely saddened by their inability to control it. The lives of most psychopaths are devoid of a stable social network or warm, close bonds.

I found it interesting because (as I mentioned before) that's what I observed with P-ex. He did seem to be tormented at times after we had arguments. I recall he used to say he hated it when I was upset with him and it definitely seemed genuine. I think that's perhaps why many women find it confusing and feel that perhaps there's a chance of turning things around. That kind of thing gives them false hope. I did feel sorry for him at those times. Seems like a cursed way to be, endlessly struggling with demons that you can't overcome. Not sorry enough that I stayed though...

Sylvie

P.S. On on the one hand I was reticent to post that but hopefully people will see that even though they can emote to some extent, they are still Ps. Also, the article is considered controversial as it would be.

Dear Sylvia,

The problem is not what the P feels, it is how he thinks. He thinks he is entitled to be taken care of, to be catered to, to have the right to control and manipulate you and lie to you. P's can even be embarassed by their behavior, but it is never enough for them to change because their attitudes are so very concretely set in this center-of-the-universe entitlement, AND they are so very good at scape-goating others to lessen their feelings of discomfort, AND they are very good at enlisting the aid of others to support their entitlements.

Everyone under their sphere of influence is seen by them as their "property" and they believe they have the right to do with their property as they see fit. That is why they are often surprised when they are forced by laws to pay for wrongs they have committed. Why should they have to pay for something they have done to something that "belongs" to them?

Diane1969

In reply to:

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"Psychopaths can suffer emotional pain for a variety of reasons. Like anyone else, psychopaths have a deep wish to be loved and cared for."

" Psychopaths are at least periodically aware of the effects of their behavior on others and can be genuinely saddened by their inability to control it."

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I came across this quote a while ago and came to the conclusion that Willem H.J. Martens, M.D., Ph. doesnt have a clue what he is talking about. Either he's been conned by psychopaths, who have convinced him of their 'emotional pain' in the way they always try to, or the individuals he is describing might have some 'psychopathic tendencies'or traits but would not qualify for diagnosis as psychopaths under PCL-R.

"suffer emotional pain" "Deep wish to be loved and cared for" and "genuinely saddened" are all directly contradictory to the essence of psychopathy - flattened emotional response, an inability to empathise and no conscience.

Psychopaths just don't care. Rather than being 'genuinely saddened' a genuine psychopath will always lay the blame for any effect their behaviour may have had on others at somebody elses feet. Often the victims!

if you think a P is emoting, its because that's what he wants you to think. A mimickry of emotional affect does not mean that there is anything going on under the surface. The purpose of the smile on the face of the tiger or crocodile tears is to gull you into a state where you can be... consumed.

I do think Martens has got it completely wrong. His description is totally contradictory to descriptions in the books by CLeckley, Hare and Martha Stout that I have read and many other articles on the web.

Restating Martens:

"Psychopaths suffer no emotional pain themselves but enjoy witnessing it in others, especially when they have caused it. The ability to evoke emotional affect in others as part of controlling others behaviour is what gratifies the psychopath. Psychopaths are often curious about emotions in others that they do not feel themselves."

" Psychopaths have no desire to be loved, but often create and exploit the bond of love in order to get another person to care for them - because they are lazy . Why go to the effort of looking after yourself whn you can get somebody else to do it?"

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Three decades of these studies, by Hare and others, has confirmed that psychopaths' brains work differently from ours, especially when processing emotion and language. Hare once illustrated this for Nicole Kidman, who had invited him to Hollywood to help her prepare for a role as a psychopath in Malice. How, she wondered, could she show the audience there was something fundamentally wrong with her character?

"I said, 'Here's a scene that you can use,' " Hare says. " 'You're walking down a street and there's an accident. A car has hit a child in the crosswalk. A crowd of people gather round. You walk up, the child's lying on the ground and there's blood running all over the place. You get a little blood on your shoes and you look down and say, "Oh [censored]." You look over at the child, kind of interested, but you're not repelled or horrified. You're just interested. Then you look at the mother, and you're really fascinated by the mother, who's emoting, crying out, doing all these different things. After a few minutes you turn away and go back to your house. You go into the bathroom and practice mimicking the facial expressions of the mother.' " He then pauses and says, "That's the psychopath: somebody who doesn't understand what's going on emotionally, but understands that something important has happened."

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Source

I agree, JAM that Martens guy is way off base. I have also run across him and never bothered to post his "theory" since I am a strong believer in Dr. Hare and that guy makes no sense to me.

There is also someone, I forget their name, who suggests the concept of a "Partial Psychopath" that I have run across over the years and never bothered to post it. This is only my opinion but I think you are either a Psychopath as defined by Hare et.al or you aren't. Kind of a black and white issue, not any room for gray.

Well, I've been fascinated by psychopathy for a long time, mainly because it runs in our family and because of a pretty hurtful relationship I've been in for two years. I think I'm mostly over with it, but, you know, "know thine enemy". So I'll give my two cents, and hope you can get something useful out of it.

One thing anyone shouldn't forget, when dabbling in psychology as an amateur, is, that it isn't a science in the normal sense of the word. Scientific methodology applies to psychologic study, but experiments and tests are not in every or even in most cases repeatable or fully accurate. There are no set laws like in physics. Nothing psychology has determined so far is more than an observation of tendencies, and oftentimes is highly dependent on the reports of the afflicted themselves. Psychologists and psychiatrists still cannot truly "heal" anyone, they can only treat people for symptoms, and that's what makes it so hard to say that anything is truly "black" or "white" as far as this kind of problem is concerned.

Hare studied mostly criminal white males between 25 and 40, if I remember correctly, sentenced to between 6 months and life and usually reoffenders. They also were tendencially suffering from antisocial personality disorder most of the time (yes, there IS really some discussion whether "psychopathy" is synonymous with ASPD or is something quite diffent, I personally believe the latter to be true). So this doesn't really say much about the emotional setup of non-criminal psychopaths either younger or older and not afflicted by ASPD. Psychopathy is a bit like HIV - running wild among humanity, but only barely understood even by experts.

Sylvie seems to believe a psychopath may feel a desire to be loved (if I'm wrong, sorry, for the misunderstanding). That's in itself a valid opinion, but it depends mostly on what you assume his understanding of "love" to be. Psychopathy is considered to be defined by a vast inability of the psychopath to comprehend the normal scope of human emotion. While a psychopath may BELIEVE he wants to be loved, it may also be that his understanding of "love" merely consists of "people who deem me important to them and want me around." It may be that this understanding says "people who find my character intensely likeable". That is, in it's roots, a description of love. Yet, anyone who has ever FELT love understands the existing difference in sheer depth that he cannot properly put into words. That's what is lost on a psychopath.

DOES a psychopath want to be "loved"? Humans are fundamentally social creatures, so yes, as far has he understands human emotion, he likely craves interaction to a certain degree. He may desire this pleasant feeling of "closeness" other people tell him about. He may feel a need for conversation. He may even feel "disappointment" and "loneliness" if deprived of what he, because of the fundamental egotism saturating his perspective, considers his right (and the instinctual reaction to this failure to live up to his expectations is usually indignated anger). But he cannot feel true emotional closeness to the people he "loves", neither does he understand the reason for their feelings. He does not "love" them as persons, like true love should be, but rather for something about them that he enjoys. And this is why any psychopath eventually fails, as going through the motions does not equal true responding.

So, what is MY personal opinion to this? I say it's wrong to say a psychopath doesn't care about anything. One must never forget that psychopaths are still human, and people differ wildly enough even without any kind of mental illness afflicting them. To feel any need to interact with humans he must have a motivation, a "care" that drives him on to try again and again. So a typical psychopath may be out for the pleasure and tranquility being loved is supposed to give. Another may crave the gratification of being successful. Or maybe to escape the boredom that plagues him, since to him not much is worth reaching. He may even feel a genuine intellectual need to understand himself and what he is. Or maybe something entirely different. How can we know? He likely doesn't even know himself most of the time. But he DOES care, it's just about all the wrong things.


Gee, now THAT'S some rant, huh? I hope you enjoyed the read, I put that together from a variety of internet sources and books I've read, as well as personal experience. I'd enjoy any criticism you care to give.

Oh, Daath,

I have to disagree with this statement you made: "...neither does he understand the reason for their feelings..."

They understand perfectly, that is why they are so good at manipulations. They just don't have the capacity or desire to walk in your shoes - no empathy and no remorse. They like to play these games where they pretend they just don't understand. It is all abusive twisting. They understand perfectly. They like who they are and they like their lives.

And as far as drive? The only drive that I have seen in my ex for the last 11 years in association with me that has remained consistent through all that time is the desire to control and consume me.

There is a hunger here, but it has nothing to do with the normal needs to be loved and nurtured. It is all about power and control. And the only real deep emotion that I have ever seen in him is rage when I slip that control. That emotion you can take to the bank.

Diane1969

In reply to:

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I say it's wrong to say a psychopath doesn't care about anything.

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So do I. I had certain specifics in mind when I made the statement "Psychopaths just dont care" but as the readers of this board are not mindreaders, thats not very helpful!

Total lack of care about anything equates to catatonia, but many psychopaths are like the Energizer Bunny on crack! Theres a lot of stuff they really do care about, but unfortunately for us its all (ultimately) totally selfish.

One of the things I had in mind is 'caring' as in concern for the physical and emotional wellbeing of others. Another is the lack of care many psychopaths show for the possible implications of their own actions. Many indulge in stupid, anti-social stuff that repeatedly gets them into trouble with the law - and just dont seem to care. They get caught easily. Hence the high proportion of recidivist anti-social psychopaths in the prison system.

In reply to:

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Gee, now THAT'S some rant, huh? I hope you enjoyed the read,

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Yes I certainly did. There are a number of other points I'd addresss but unfortunately I dont have time! Christmas is a cummin in !

One for the road...

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He may even feel a genuine intellectual need to understand himself and what he is.

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I dont think so. From what I know about one particular psychopath and what Ive read about others. I'd say exactly the opposite. Psychopaths dont seem to introspect much at all. They have a strong if delusional 'self image' but they dont question it. The blame is always on the other side.

Their mental focus is always turned out onto the world, looking for the angles, the next con, the advantageous position in any situation - always short term advantage, rarely turned in on the self. I think thats why they seem to make the same mistakes over and over. The past really is the past - its over and done with. Not something to be held on to, mulled over, analysed and learnt from. The psychopaths time horizon seems peculiarly limited.

Diane1969, JAM, Di and Daath,

I've seen your comments and will respond in the next few days (bit rushed right now). I think I need to clarify the intent behind my post but I don't want to respond in an off-the-cuff way. The "Do you believe your P actually loved you at some point" thread may not have been the best place for it since I don't really give a flip whether or not he did. He's history. It just seemed to be the thread that relates to emotions/feelings.

Sylvie

In reply to:

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This is only my opinion but I think you are either a Psychopath as defined by Hare et.al or you aren't. Kind of a black and white issue, not any room for gray."

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..and there we part company, slightly. Im not so definite about it.

I see 'psychopath' as a small arbitrary band at one end of a spectrum which has the non-existent pure empath ( I dont believe in saints - nobody is perfect!) at one end and the equally non-existent pure psychopath at the other.(Total emotional deficit would I think result in catatonia. A pure empath might similarly be frozen into inactivity by the thought that anything they do might upset somebody) 'Psychopath' is an artificial psychological construct, which overlaps but is not synonymous with ASPD.

If you give a large enough random selection of people the Hare PCL-R test you would end up with a continuous set of scores from very low, (maybe even zero if you happen to include somebody like Mother Teresa of Calcutta!) to very high. There are, I think, a small number of people in the world (either currently in prison or now dead) who have scored 40. My guess is that if you graphed the results you'd end up with a bell curve skewed towards the low end of the 0 to 40 range.

There would be no obvious discontinuity in the graph line which would indicate where a 'psychopath' 'non-psychopath' break lies. It seems to be a culturally based arbitrary cuttoff point.

In North America that cuttoff is a score of 30. In the UK prison system it is 25. I've no idea what this means, but obviously from experience in HM Prisons, prisoners with a score between 25 and 30 are thought to be problematic enough to earn the label 'psychopath' whereas in the US such personalities are not.

Does this suggest maybe that the US society as a whole is more 'psychopathic' than UK society? I've seen that suggested but have no idea if its true or not. Certainly there does seem to be a societal element to the incidence of psychopathy. Japan ( and other South East Asian societies) historically had a much lower incidence, though as with obesity, the incidence is now increasing as Japanese society is becomes more Westernised.

If psychopathy was a 'black and white' thing there would be no need to define it using a points scoring system . The symptoms really would be black and white, either / or.

Psychopathy is, in certain respects the mirror of Downs syndrome. Psychopathy being emotional deficit with normal(ish!) intellect and Downs syndrome being the opposite - intellectual deficit with (potentially at least) normal emotional responses - Downs syndrome people can empathise and have the capacity for love. Downs sufferers, unlike psychopaths, also have a number of physical deficits to cope with which makes them easy to identify. (Pity psychopathy isnt the same - it would make life a lot easier for everybody if the Pinnochio effect was real. Imagine a Ps nose growing longer every time he told a lie!)

The two differ in that Downs syndrome really is a 'black and white issue'. There are no such things as 'partial Downs syndrome' or 'Downs tendencies' - you either have it or you don't as the syndrome results from the accidental production of an extra copy of chromosome 21 during meiosis (sexual cell division). You either have this extra copy or you don't -no half measure is physically possible.

In reply to:

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They understand perfectly, that is why they are so good at manipulations. They just don't have the capacity or desire to walk in your shoes - no empathy and no remorse. They like to play these games where they pretend they just don't understand. It is all abusive twisting. They understand perfectly. They like who they are and they like their lives.

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You see, this is where I'm not exactly sure, even though I agree with your opinion that his motivations are always ultimately selfish.

Someone here said he doubted a psychopath could truly "read" emotions, and I personally agree. If you ask me, a psychopath has no real idea of what's going on inside the people he watches and "plays around with," or why they react like they do. I'd say the approach is more like to physics, or math. "If I do this and this, this will happen. If I do that instead, people will do something different".
I have recently read in an article that psychopaths seem to lack a fundamental understanding of human interaction that is inborn to most people - that they do not comprehend by heart, but rather learn by rote. That made me reevaluate some of my opinions. So, what I wonder about is: Does a psychopath know WHY you act the way you do? This may be, but only in the way that someone explained it to him, or because he read a book that vocalized this emotional reaction, but in no case because of true understanding. So he might think "She is angry because I said that and because it is hurtful to her," but he likely does not have any idea why it is hurtful at any rate. That's what I meant with saying that he doesn't understand the reason. It's like learning by doing, in that he noticed a certain kind of action creates a reaction on your side, like using a chemical formula, but without truly getting WHY it does this thing, except in the most loose terms.

I hope this time I managed to express myself correctly. That's is pretty hard.

In reply to:

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One of the things I had in mind is 'caring' as in concern for the physical and emotional wellbeing of others. Another is the lack of care many psychopaths show for the possible implications of their own actions. Many indulge in stupid, anti-social stuff that repeatedly gets them into trouble with the law - and just dont seem to care.

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Yes, I understand what you mean. I totally agree as well. As far as I can tell a psychopath does not care whether you love him or hate him, as long as you accept him as your superior. I think the only matter we disagree about is what a psychopath himself would consider this desire to be.

And as far as the lack of concern for consequences goes... This depends. It's like the Hare dilemma: By studying only criminals you, of course, get a lot of people who do not care about being imprisoned, AND you only get those that managed to get themselves caught. But, if you ask me, I'd say that most psychopaths DO value their freedom, just only in the way that it gives them more ability to do whatever strikes their fancy at the moment. You ARE rather restricted in a 8 m² prison cell after all, and most fight viciously to get out of it again as soon as possible. That's where I'd say the human differences kick in.

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I dont think so. From what I know about one particular psychopath and what Ive read about others. I'd say exactly the opposite. Psychopaths dont seem to introspect much at all. They have a strong if delusional 'self image' but they dont question it. The blame is always on the other side.

Their mental focus is always turned out onto the world, looking for the angles, the next con, the advantageous position in any situation - always short term advantage, rarely turned in on the self. I think thats why they seem to make the same mistakes over and over. The past really is the past - its over and done with. Not something to be held on to, mulled over, analysed and learnt from. The psychopaths time horizon seems peculiarly limited.

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You know, this is rather interesting... Have you ever noticed how psychopaths seem to be unable to diffentiate time spans? The two I knew seemed to have a marked difficulty to say whether something happened two years or two months ago, as if living in a perpetual "now". They could not have given a general outline of their life to this point even if they had wanted to, but they had no difficulty in remembering facts. I think this might be because emotionally intense memories are remembered best, and psychopaths do not have many of these.

As to the other thing... We cannot say much about those psychopaths which do NOT repeat silly mistakes, can we? As they say, "knowledge is power", and most psychopaths seem to enjoy hoarding large troves of trivia, all the better to play their chosen roles. A psychopath might certainly not care about self-knowledge because he wants to change (since he doesn't), but he COULD care for sake of curiosity and out of ennui, and of course the better to justify his "wolf amongst sheep" superiority before himself.

In reply to:

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If psychopathy was a 'black and white' thing there would be no need to define it using a points scoring system . The symptoms really would be black and white, either / or.

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You know, this is something I'm really bothered about. PCL-R mostly defines psychopathy by a fixed set of symptoms, not the way a psychopath relates to himself and his environment. That's of course a very practical approach, since psychologists cannot read thoughts as it is, but it IS really quite spongy... and the reason for the diffuse intermingling of ASPD and psychopathy. Both illnesses often result in the same thing, but using social unfitness as a criterium reeks like more of a moral judgement and less of an accurate medical definition.

Personally I believe psychopathy to be an "either / or" thing, but to be so diverse in its expressions and intensities that it cannot be defined simply by how a psychopath interacts with other people and society at large. That's certainly a clue, but theres definitely more to it.

In reply to:

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As to the other thing... We cannot say much about those psychopaths which do NOT repeat silly mistakes, can we? As they say, "knowledge is power", and most psychopaths seem to enjoy hoarding large troves of trivia, all the better to play their chosen roles.

---

Theres always a danger of oversimplifying and ignoring other factors when discussing psychopathy, which I know I'm sometimes guilty of...

Psychopathy does play itself out to quite different ends in different circumstances.

An intelligent psychopath bought up in privileged circumstances, well supported and educated may well end up.....as the CEO of Enron.

A stupid psychopath bought up in a violent criminal familly environment is most likely to end up as a stupid violent criminal - and a recidivist in the correctional system.

(I believe intelligence is a function of both genetics and environment. Genetics defines the potential and environment how much of that potential is realised.)

In reply to:

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Personally I believe psychopathy to be an "either / or" thing, but to be so diverse in its expressions and intensities

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Like you've either got a cold or you havent got a cold, but it could be a really stinking bad cold or a mild 'just a sniffle' cold?

Yup...know what you mean. I feel mildly psychopathic occasionally, especially when queueing at the supermarket.
;-)

Well, this is a really good discussion!

About time and the way they remember things... first of all, no one can get completely inside another person's mind to see how it works. But you can get some clues by looking at what is consistent over time and in diverse situations... and that can tell you a lot about core beliefs and attitudes.

And one thing that always struck me is how facile they are and how changeable. On an item by item basis it "seems" like they are either living in a very slippery internal world, or are clueless, or have difficulty with memories or with placing things in time. But when you look at the overall pattern that is consistent what you find with a psychopath is that no matter what they say it is designed to get them what they want. They want you to be confused, therefore they act in a way that is confusing to you. They want you to feel responsible, therefore their memories, actions, behavioral patterns support that. They selectively forget, selectively remember, and never ever will you see them take responsibility for hurting you or manipulating you or stealing your trust.

And thinking that they ever take your feeling into consideration in such a way as to even acknowledge you have rights is dangerous to you around a P because they will use that to manipulate you. The only time you will think a P cares about you or how you feel or think, it is part of the con. And really well socialized P's are very good at this.

With a P there is a lot of personal pain for you, but never ever any long lasting resolution to that pain. You can't make any kind of alliance that will also get your needs met. And your own inner pain that doesn't ever seem to have a way to resolve no matter how hard you try is the best indicator you possess that you are dealing with a P.

Trying to grasp this stuff and continuing to think about these things is good, but only if you are not currently involved with a P. If you do this while you still have the P in your life, your own caring humanity, your own empathy, remorse, and heart are the weapons the P will use to manipulate you and keep you in a place where he can and does do this. And the longer you are involved with a P and the more you try to understand, the deeper will be your pain, the less energy you will have, the less you will have inner resources to get away from his manipulative control.

And if your understanding comes to the place where everything the P does makes sense you will find that their dynamic is hate based, that they don't care, that they will do whatever they can get away with without facing consequences, that they are selfish, self-centered, totally self-referencing, remorseless, callous, and glutinous. The best you can do is to embrace your own humanity and pity them for their inability or unwillingness to ever feel real connection and love, and let go of any hope that they can ever change. They won't. They really do like who they are and the benefits they derive from their parasitic lifestyle.

P's have always been with us, and they will most likely always be with us. The P is where we get our definition of evil from. It is best to just recognize when you aren't getting and can't get your needs met and walk away from it. Always take care of yourself and spend your love and energy and humanity on people who can and do respond in kind. The P won't. And whether that is because they can't or because they choose not to, it really amounts to the same thing. P's are destructive to the spirits, emotions, and psyches of everyone they engage with. That is the reality that is important - not what makes them tick.

How's that for an opinion?

Diane1966

In reply to:

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Like you've either got a cold or you havent got a cold, but it could be a really stinking bad cold or a mild 'just a sniffle' cold?

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That's not quite it, but pretty much like it, yes. I think the way I meant it would better be explained by saying it's like autism, you know, a "spectrum disorder". One distinctive affliction, but with many degrees of severity and a range of possible symptoms.

In reply to:

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About time and the way they remember things... first of all, no one can get completely inside another person's mind to see how it works.

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Yes, that's true. It's only a weird thing I observed and considered noteworthy.

In reply to:

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Always take care of yourself and spend your love and energy and humanity on people who can and do respond in kind. The P won't. And whether that is because they can't or because they choose not to, it really amounts to the same thing. P's are destructive to the spirits, emotions, and psyches of everyone they engage with. That is the reality that is important - not what makes them tick.

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Sorry, but I strongly have to disagree with that. While I cannot say you are wrong with the first part of your post - hell knows I've had enough of that myself, I sure understand what you're talking about - I still think there is a strong need to comprehend what makes them "tick" if we are ever to change the fact that psychopaths DO exist, or at least to stop any damage before it can be done.
Whether they cannot or just do not want to is a CRUCIAL question, in fact. It defines how they think, how they plan, how they can be uncovered, stopped, and - if at all possible - treated. Although it may sound melodramatic (and I'm sure it does *g*) extensive knowledge on the workings of the psychopathic mind is the only thing that makes us able to recognise something that looks like us and acts like us but is completely unlike us, in a multitude of important ways. We should never make the mistake of believing that it is "simple as that", because it plainly isn't.

In reply to:

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How's that for an opinion?

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It certainly IS an opinion to respect, even though I cannot agree with all you said.

Daath,

It depends on if you are a researcher or a victim whether my point is valid.

Of course, for a researcher this might be a crucial question.

But as a victim of a P it doesn't matter if the P can't or won't be a human being capable of interacting with me in a way that is non-destructive. The point that he IS destructive is what is important and the realization that if I want to have an abuse free life, in an environment I can trust, in an environment of mutual caring, in an environment of integrity, I have to walk away from that question.

Do you see the destinction?

Diane

Yes, I understand.

In reply to:

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In reply to:

Like you've either got a cold or you havent got a cold, but it could be a really stinking bad cold or a mild 'just a sniffle' cold?


That's not quite it, but pretty much like it, yes. I think the way I meant it would better be explained by saying it's like autism, you know, a "spectrum disorder". One distinctive affliction, but with many degrees of severity and a range of possible symptoms.

---

Fine I understand that. So you dont see psychopathy grading seamlessly into 'normal' . You definitely see a break between the two, a discontinuity? And how is this recognised?

Is there a sudden measurable jump in emotional response between the psychopath and normal person for instance?

In reply to:

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So you dont see psychopathy grading seamlessly into 'normal' . You definitely see a break between the two, a discontinuity? And how is this recognised?

Is there a sudden measurable jump in emotional response between the psychopath and normal person for instance?

---

I cannot say I have any idea how you could objectively quantify emotional response, I personally believe that's by nature impossible. But I'd say there IS a set of specifications most, if not all, psychopaths would meet.
There is a variety of definitions of psychopathy in scientific circles, but if I had to categorize all commonalities I have found, I'd start with this:

"Psychopathy, as it is, is defined by a distinctive lack of outwardly aimed emotional attachment on an interpersonal level, without any measurable collective retardation of cognitive functions and social skills."

That's of course not at all comprehensive, I certainly missed a lot especially in the neurological department, and it does not explain at all how psychopathy comes to exist. But it's the bedrock of the disorder in my opinion, and if we can agree on this much, that's something to work from. I think it's quite accurate actually, since it translates into most, if not all, symptoms a psychopath may exhibit: Lack of remorse and empathy, completely egocentric worldview, failure to learn from punishment, outright disregard of other persons rights, yet a high understanding of right and wrong as it concerns the treatment of his person, manipulativeness, possessiveness, intense focus on corporal pleasures.
In other words, every emotion, care and pleasure a normal human might project on other people a psychopath projects solely on himself. He is fully functional in social and intellectual interaction yet feeling dissociated, is slightly megalomaniac, and probably awash in a cacophony of feelings he cannot control or categorize, all relating to him, his perception of himself and the way he relates to everything in his immediate vicinity.

Of course, this could all be completely wrong, but I don't think it is.

Well, no matter what the cause this is the bedrock of reactive attachment disorder as well. That first outwardly aimed emotional attachment is the mother... fail at that and there is no other.

But this still does not show cause. It still goes back to nurture vs. nature. And maybe there are multiple causes for this. Part genetic, all genetic, part nurture, all nurture.... round it goes. Who knows?

I do know this much. Many people with neglectful or abusive mothers still learn to attach and do not end up psychopathic. Many people who were abused as children can and do feel empathy and compassion for others.

All I know for certain is I never ever want to be involved with one again.

Diane1969

Daath,

________________________
"Psychopathy, as it is, is defined by a distinctive lack of outwardly aimed emotional attachment on an interpersonal level, without any measurable collective retardation of cognitive functions and social skills."
________________________

Well, you can go back to object relations theory. This is explained as the failure to internalize the mother during early cognitive development. It has been a long time since I read any of this but I think Karen Horney was about the most lucid in this theory. And then there is attachment theory.

Of course none of this explains the physiology behind this deficit, but as far as I know that hasn't been adequately researched yet.

It is a tough question.

Personally, I'd like to see a comprehensive genetic analysis run on diagnosed Psychopaths to see if there are multiple variables that contribute to this and if the number of those variables present contributes to the severety of the disorder.

Here is a very interesting article you may want to read. I'm about half way through it.

http://human-nature.com/nibbs/01/psychopathy.html

Here's an interesting quote from the article:

"Psychopathy is not associated with low birth weight, obstetric complications, poor parenting, poverty, early psychological trauma or adverse experiences, and indeed Robert Hare remarks ‘I can find no convincing evidence that psychopathy is the direct result of early social or environmental factors’ (Hare, 1993, p. 170)."

Diane1969

In reply to:

---

Fine I understand that. So you dont see psychopathy grading seamlessly into 'normal' . You definitely see a break between the two, a discontinuity? And how is this recognised?

Is there a sudden measurable jump in emotional response between the psychopath and normal person for instance?

---

hi JAM,

I see what you're driving at. many, natural phenonena sum into "bell curves"
whether the underlying distributions are gaussian, or not. but many do not,
and there is no rule that everything must do so.

as a counter-example, many complex, dynamical systems like the brain settle
into well defined, easily recognized states, e.g. "P", or "not P".

the famous example is the "on/off" switch to your stereo. no matter what
inputs from you, your toddler, teen, guest, in-law, or out-law, the stereo
flips discontinuously (well, almost) fron "ON" to "OFF". if there's a
volume control, it can also be quiet or loud, but it's still "ON" or "OFF".

another example is the global weather. the Sahara flips discontinuously
between savannah and desert; the earth between "inter-glacial" and "ice-age".

the brain famously recruits every neuron it can lay its hands on for the
task at hand, "cascading" discontinously from one state to another.

so I don't see any a priori reason to assume a continuous bell-curve of
"P"-ness.

from a mathematical modelling stand-point, Hare's scale only applies to
criminals who are already behind bars. properly understood, it might really be
an estimate of how likely an incarcerated P is to commit another crime.

it probably measures a particular facet of psychopathy, or psychopathy
confounded with another variable -- it's not necessarily applicable to
the general population.

so I think we need another test for the general population, which might
come out gaussian, or might not.

does this topic need its own thread?

-WK

Hi Diane1969,

The problem is not what the P feels, it is how he thinks.

I think the two are inextricably linked - what the P feels (or doesn’t) is very much part of the equation. I don’t know if there’s been any official determination as to whether feelings drive thoughts or the other way around - seems like a chicken-egg discussion.

He thinks he is entitled to be taken care of, to be catered to, to have the right to control and manipulate you and lie to you. P's can even be embarassed by their behavior, but it is never enough for them to change because their attitudes are so very concretely set in this center-of-the-universe entitlement, AND they are so very good at scape-goating others to lessen their feelings of discomfort, AND they are very good at enlisting the aid of others to support their entitlements.

Everyone under their sphere of influence is seen by them as their "property" and they believe they have the right to do with their property as they see fit.

Agreed.

That is why they are often surprised when they are forced by laws to pay for wrongs they have committed. Why should they have to pay for something they have done to something that "belongs" to them?

I don’t know that they are surprised, more resentful it seems because certainly they don’t think the law should apply to them.

Sylvie

Hi Daath,

I am finally getting around to responding. I find that Christmas and discussions about Psychopathy don’t mix too well.

Sylvie seems to believe a psychopath may feel a desire to be loved (if I'm wrong, sorry, for the misunderstanding). That's in itself a valid opinion, but it depends mostly on what you assume his understanding of "love" to be.

It’s not quite the point I was making even though I could see why you would have thought that given the thread I posted it in. Think my choice was a little misleading. I do think that psychopathic personalities are not averse to trying to make some sort of human connection. I hesitate to call it “love” because of the lack of empathy that usually defines them.

I definitely believe that psychopathy at least in part derives from attachment/lack of nurture issues in their childhood and that drives their interpersonal interactions. It would be difficult for me to dismiss that as a factor because I’ve seen it in the four Ps I’ve encountered and it is very pronounced. All of them seem to have experienced (or perceived) a level of rejection by their mother’s and I believe that a lot of their rage, resentment and interpersonal difficulties stem from that. At the same time I’ve observed there also seems to be a need to make a connection of sorts with certain individuals, however, their own antisocial tendencies preclude them from being able to do so. That in turn I feel fuels more rage and alienation. In fact the people they perceive as rejecting or betraying them are targeted for the worst possible treatment because I think that really rubs salt in their wounds. One P used to always refer to women in the most derogatory terms. It was all too obvious where that came from. The interesting thing is he didn’t make those sweeping generalizations about men even though he had been mistreated by his father as well.

Humans are fundamentally social creatures, so yes, as far has he understands human emotion, he likely craves interaction to a certain degree.

I think that’s actually a pretty good depiction of the way I see Ps in this context.

I hope you continue to post. I think you bring a lot to the discussion.

Sylvie

Hi JAM,

I came across this quote a while ago and came to the conclusion that Willem H.J. Martens, M.D., Ph. doesnt have a clue what he is talking about.

I read the article again because I wanted to try and ascertain whether he was talking about clinical psychopaths or just people with some P traits. It still isn’t obvious to me which. What’s interesting, is that I can read the same article as you and Di and come away with a very different conclusion.

I do in fact think (up to a point) that Martens knows what he’s talking about because certainly it resonates with my experience with Ps. Having said that, the extent to which he emphasizes their feelings makes them sound downright sappy and that I can’t relate to. When it comes to suffering, I think Ps visit exponentially more suffering, actually devastation, on their victims and so I can only stomach a little talk about any suffering they may experience.

Actually I have a lot more to say to back up my position but I think I’m posted out for today. I always find P topics easier to deal with in bite-size pieces because they're so negative.

Sylvie

Sylvie,

My ex-P on my birthday this past year slipped a note into my card. It was in reference to a conversation we had been having about attachment. This is what he wrote, "Sometimes avoidance is the ultimate in attachment." Just exactly what he meant by that I am of course unsure of. But taken in context it very likely refers to the total enmeshment that these people get into with their owned "objects." The avoidance I know he was refering to was because I stated that he was lazy around emotional issues in relationships and he responded with, "Not lazy, avoidant."

Diane1969

In reply to:

---

Here's an interesting quote from the article:

"Psychopathy is not associated with low birth weight, obstetric complications, poor parenting, poverty, early psychological trauma or adverse experiences, and indeed Robert Hare remarks ‘I can find no convincing evidence that psychopathy is the direct result of early social or environmental factors’ (Hare, 1993, p. 170)."

---

Yes, I've read that one. But, like WhiteKnight said farther below, Hare had a very narrow field of study... And it's hard to say what a particular psychopath might have become if his life had been different, don't you agree? So this is an assumption to be careful with, one of the reasons I cannot consummately agree with Mr. Hare.

In reply to:

---

the famous example is the "on/off" switch to your stereo. no matter what
inputs from you, your toddler, teen, guest, in-law, or out-law, the stereo
flips discontinuously (well, almost) fron "ON" to "OFF". if there's a
volume control, it can also be quiet or loud, but it's still "ON" or "OFF".

[...]

from a mathematical modelling stand-point, Hare's scale only applies to
criminals who are already behind bars. properly understood, it might really be
an estimate of how likely an incarcerated P is to commit another crime.

it probably measures a particular facet of psychopathy, or psychopathy
confounded with another variable -- it's not necessarily applicable to
the general population.

---

That's exactly what I was trying to get at, you summarised that very nicely. Thank you very much.

In reply to:

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I don’t know that they are surprised, more resentful it seems because certainly they don’t think the law should apply to them.

---

I think it's more because they didn't REALLY think they could ever get caught. I liken that to juvenile drug abusers who just refuse to believe it could be them who end up with a needle in their arm, somewhere on a railway station toilet. It obviously happens to someone all the time, but never to them, now does it? *sigh*

In reply to:

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At the same time I’ve observed there also seems to be a need to make a connection of sorts with certain individuals, however, their own antisocial tendencies preclude them from being able to do so. That in turn I feel fuels more rage and alienation.

---

Yes, that's cognate with my experiences with mental illness in general. Most mentally ill persons understand at one or more points in their life that something is going on with them, and they are horrified by the fact that they can't do anything about it - and this usually just makes them spin all the more faster into the gap. Ever met a manic depressive?

I think one of the most fundamentally tragic facts about psychopathy is that a Psychopath is often very well aware that he lacks... something, at least intellectually aware. He doesn't know what it is, and he doesn't usually think about it, but in those rare moments of introspection he may notice that something is amiss. Even the most self-absorbed character sooner or later realizes that all his relationships fail spectacularly, after all. Of course this doesn't mean he decides to act on it, or is even more capable of helping himself on his own that the average psychotic. But it certainly makes them ever more angry and unstable. A true "Teufelskreis," a malicious circle that fuels itself.

In reply to:

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I hope you continue to post. I think you bring a lot to the discussion.

---

Thank you. I will.

Daath,

You wrote:

------------------------
Yes, I've read that one. But, like WhiteKnight said farther below, Hare had a very narrow field of study... And it's hard to say what a particular psychopath might have become if his life had been different, don't you agree? So this is an assumption to be careful with, one of the reasons I cannot consummately agree with Mr. Hare.
------------------------

I think that until we have more information from those like Hare we have to weigh their research pretty heavily. If you know of other solid research that supports an opposing point of view, I would really like to see it.

You also wrote:

------------------------
I think one of the most fundamentally tragic facts about psychopathy is that a Psychopath is often very well aware that he lacks... something, at least intellectually aware. He doesn't know what it is, and he doesn't usually think about it, but in those rare moments of introspection he may notice that something is amiss. Even the most self-absorbed character sooner or later realizes that all his relationships fail spectacularly...
------------------------

Are you kidding me here? Is this a supposition or are you basing this on anything concrete? It really sounds more like the type of wishful thinking I would fall into repeatedly while trying to make sense of all of the senseless abuse I was undergoing at the hands of one of these "introspective" beasts.

I never, ever saw any evidence of this in all the years I was raised by a P, nor all the years (over a decade) I was involved with one. I even had many discussions with my ex-P about this very subject - his many failed relationships - to see if he could ever see any connection with his behaviors. What I was left with after many long heart-to-hearts is yes he is aware that there is something about his behaviors that somehow contribute to the failure of the relationships - he just doesn't care what they are.

To him (and I strongly suspect this is typical of all P's - the literature supports it), he identifies himself as the perfect Mr. Nice Guy, living the perfect life. And all the manipulativeness, the sadistic abuse, the conning of myself and others, all the self-destructive pathological lying, all the behaviors that define him, he is entitled to because he wants what he wants and no one and no thing should get in his way of it. Period. Ultimately, he believed if a relationship failed it was because those f*ing b*tches were to blame because they took from him something he wanted - them selves.

Relationship has no meaning to a P. They are incapable of grasping what that is. It bewilders them and they don't spend time dwelling on it. And this is from direct statements from my ex-P, from direct observation, and from years of gently and repeatedly prying at the question with him by me.

There really is nothing there.

The day you see a P being remorseful for anything he has done, or attempting to change his behavior to support someone else, you will know you are NOT truly dealing with a P.

Diane1969

Hi Diane

The "avoidant" issue you mentioned could be related to RAD -Reactive Attachment Disorder which breaks down into many categories such as avoidant or oppositional etc. From what I have researched RAD and psychopathy are one and the same. Check out the checklists!
If you want more info on RAD just let me know and I'll pass over all my stuff.

Regards
Jan

Jan,

Yes, please. I would love it if you would point me to that information as well.

btw, I haven't shared everything about my ex-P, but there are reasons why I believe he is a P and not just suffering from reactive attachment issues. After the holidays, I may go into that.

Diane1969

Hi Diane

As soon asthe holiday is over I will collate my info and post it in some kind of sequence so I don't bog you down with too much in one go.

Regards
Jan

Hi Diane, Jan has been responsible for bringing this interesting topic to the forum and our resident RAD expert but there is also some info here at the forum:

Family Section

JAM,

Ok, I'm finally (tardily) getting around to the rest of my response.

"suffer emotional pain" "Deep wish to be loved and cared for" and "genuinely saddened" are all directly contradictory to the essence of psychopathy - flattened emotional response, an inability to empathise and no conscience.

I guess the inherent difficulty with these discussions is that I suspect many posters here don't really know whether the people we have encountered are CLINICAL psychopaths or where exactly they fall on the scale but we use the term psychopath or P for convenience.

As long as one believes in the validity of Hare's scale (and based on your posts it seems that you do), surely it then follows that it is possible for psychopathic personalities lower down on the scale to exhibit qualities that a clinical psychopath would not be capable of. If there weren't at least some differences between the characteristics that these individuals exhibit then we probably wouldn't need a scale in the first place. I acknowledge though, that you seem to differentiate in places.

I for one, really don't think its advisable to lump all these P personalities together and presume them to not be able to emote at all etc. because I think that doesn't necessarily represent our individual experiences. Certainly there are commonalities (lack of empathy, ruthlessness, pathological lying etc. iin their behaviours) IMO, the risk in marginalizing them is that women (or men) in these relationships often tend to look for positives to grab on to and if they believe that these signs indicate that the individuals they've encountered must not be psychopathic they may not realize the damage that they can still do. As long as someone is a pathological liar, ruthless, etc. they need not be a full-blown P to be able to wreak havoc and just because they show flashes of emotion, suffering, etc. does not make them keepers.

if you think a P is emoting, its because that's what he wants you to think. A mimickry of emotional affect does not mean that there is anything going on under the surface. The purpose of the smile on the face of the tiger or crocodile tears is to gull you into a state where you can be... consumed.

I'm confident enough in what I witnessed that I believe if I lined up 50 people they would see what I did, that it was genuine. However, in the whole context of the relationship, it didn't matter. All it showed was that some of these psychopathic personalities who are perhaps lower down on the scale are conflicted but cannot overcome their undesirable, antisocial characteristics.

That is why I feel that Maartens may well have a point. While Hare may be a leading researcher of psychopathy, I for one prefer to look at a range of opinions when it comes to a topic as broad and complex as psychopathy. Having said that I don't consider myself as well read on the subject as other posters - most of my knowledge of them is anecdotal.

Sylvie

I think my P loved all the things I was doing for her. I think she loved me like she loves her brand new car. Looking back at it all, I was more like a trophy to her.

Love is a measure of the presence of the person you love resonating within you. That takes empathy.

What psychopaths feel is lust, just as a hungry man lusts after a nice juicy steak he is about to devour - the juicier the steak, the more he lusts for it.

That is in no way comparable to love that makes you willing to sacrifice for another, to work towards your loved one's happiness as well as your own, or to work to build something together that is foundational.

Psychopaths can not love. They are empty inside - bathtubs with no stopper in them.

They are mimics.

Diane1969

Hey all... I just wanted to add that I was in denial for a long time and I thought for sure I was different and somehow special. I thought that because I was the only one of his victims that he doted on and spent time and money on, that he must have loved me. WRONG!!! I was just the last victim before he went overboard with his credit card fraud and forgery...he got so wrapped up in the idea of stealing other peoples money and spending it onme that he couldnt stop himself. He bought his personality...like I said in my other blog, he was a body snatcher and didnt have a personality of his own so he created one and being the "Doting Loving Spoiling Minister" was who he chose to pretend to be. All his family kept saying well you must be doing something right he is sprung girl...Nobody had seen his personality flaw manifest itself in such a way. Just goes to show you what type of "Religion" it was...a knockoff. The church was found to be a cult and the only members were family members willing to do wrong with him. He never loved me and I think if anything he loathed me, I was Picture perfect and he always said he felt sorry for me. He is in prison now and I am so glad because if I told you the scale of damage he has done to me and everybody he stole from youd want to hunt him down yourself and kick his ass.
Please dont kid yourself sweetheart...it was never love only lust at best form. Take time to heal mend and reach victory, it all can be done I believe you just have to put your trust in God and not so much people. Good Luck and God Bless you all

Psychopath's are incapable of loving. At least I think mine was. No way he ever loved me and could destroy my life and walk away like he did nothing wrong. He's mad at me for some sick reason only known to a psychopath.

I have asked whether my ex-husband felt any feelings of warmth, concern, friendship, love a million times. I think that because we are not psychop-0aths it is hard to imagine how you could share so much with another person yet remain unaffected by their hurt and distress knowing that you are the cause of it. Most people cannot comprehend the minset of someone who cares nothing for the welfare of those close to them. I still feel a need to credit my ex with qualities and feelings that if I am brutally honest with myself I know he didn't have. I seem to need to humanise him as to accept he was a monster fills me with a cold, dark fear that is hard to deal with as we had a child together.

Hello Harvey

I have to say the answer to the title of your post is 'no'. A psychopath is not able to feel the emotions of a normal person, that is what makes them a psychopath. I know this isn't what you want to hear and that's understandable because you have to question yourself and the sham the marriage was. All the time you spent in that relationship you now have to think of as a stage act by this man if he is a psychopath. All those things you thought were real and good now have to be questioned. If things felt good for you at the time then they were good because it made you happy. Maybe right feeling-wrong reasons but you can't go back and change anything. The only thing you can do is change how you feel about the past.
I think we are able to project emotions onto the blank canvas psychopath to keep ourselves sane. I wonder why after all this time your ex is still dominating your thoughts and giving you so much self doubt?

Isn't it time for yourself now? This has to be left in the past and maybe you can tell us more about your relationship and the problems you have had over the years. If you get it all down in writing it may take on a completely different appearance. It's like doing those 'pros and cons' lists to decide which is the best decision.

I hope we can help you as you are the important person in this situation. We can just listen or we can cheer you on when you are ready to become yourself again. We have some wonderful members who tell us how they have achieved success and I'm hoping one person in particular will read your posts and talk to you. She amazes me (I'm sure she knows who I'm referring to)with her strength and determination and she confirms it is possible to recover your life. Even her sense of humour shines through and she is like a tonic.

My best regards
Jan

My psycopathic husband used to make me feel that he was the only one who recognised that I was intelligent and attractive. He told me others thought me stupid and all I needed was him and he did this very weird thing that is hard to explain. When he came home or I met him somewhere he would sniff round my face and head and say, "What is that smell? What have you been doing?" I would feel panicky and scared and forced into protesting innocence. I always felt like a child who had been caught doing something I shouldn't have

Hi Harvey,

My first instinct when I read your post is that is part of the isolation process to get you in a corner with out any support system. The sniffing around the face I have no idea, maybe once he got you isolated he would be accusing you so that you would not think of looking into what he was doing or contacting these friends. When a Psychopath opens their mouth they are lying, who knows if he ever told such things to other people. Do you have any proof beyond what he is claiming?

Di

One word: NO

Neither of the Psychopath's in my life ever loved me. No chance! Impossible. And those two "people" were my own daughter, and her father.

Hi everyone, I am just new here and I am so glad there is a forum like this. I had been married for almost 20 yrs to a Psychopath who abused me mentally and emotionally, i just had the courage to get out of the relationship when I met this wonderful, kind hearted, too good to be true person, little did I know, that he is another kind of Psychopath. When I discovered his lies and his true self unraveled. I discovered he was engaged and they eventually broke up. I forgave him, thinking its just a guy thing and I gave him credit for saving me from my ex-Psychopath. He knows how much I love him and he says he loves me too, but I always feel i'm just in a one way relationship. I told him to just to be honest with his feelings and let me go, but he won't let go although he got plenty of other relationships on the side. I was warned by his ex-fiancee, but I thought it was just "a woman scorned" thing, i refused to believe and held on to his words...but talk is cheap, so they say, his actions contradicts what he is saying, for the longest time, i was looking for an answer, at first I asked him, but i cannot get anything from him, so i began looking at the internet for an explanation to his behavior and LO! and behold, a charismatic psychopath fits him to a T. I do not think he got a criminal tendencies, but the pain and hurt he inflicts is as damaging. I think the worst kind of enemy is the one you trusted the most, who betrays you, then stab you in the back. They are like vampires who suck, not your blood, but your soul.

He's not the typical Psychopath, he's highly educated, he's financially well off, he's a loving son to his dad, he's charming, soft spoken, handsome, he's generous, he always pay for our dates, but he's the BIGGEST LIAR, i've ever known. He's always like the knight in shining armor to damsels in distress, that's how he gets you.

Now i have an answer to my questions, now I know what kind of monster I am dealing with. Now I know that he will not let me go, I had to do it myself.

Hello Naïve

Welcome to our forum. 20 years with an abuser must have left some deep scars.

Do I understand correctly that you were still with your husband but didn’t leave him until the new guy came along? Do you think you would have remained in that relationship if you hadn’t met him?

I apologise if I’m bombarding you with questions but it’s just to get an idea of your background and find out a bit more about you and how you deal with situations.
I can see it would be easier to leave one relationship if you have a route out of it and someone to lean on and often judgement can be clouded. It must have seemed like the solution to a problem and no reason to analyse the motives?

You say this new guy isn’t the typical psychopath so I wonder what sort of person you consider is a psychopath? Many are well educated (often running large corporations) financially well off, soft spoken and extremely charming. The generosity is often lure to get a victim so it’s difficult to comment on that in your case, as you say they are emotional vampires so if he is wealthy that is a different scenario.

What is not typical is that he is a loving father to his son, a true psychopath has no empathy or conscience and shallow effect. He either does love his son and therefore not a psychopath or he is an extremely convincing one and he pretends to love his son because he is a manipulating liar trying to show himself as someone he wants you to see.
I presume it was you who ended the relationship?

Well done that you were so quick to decide this man was not the person you thought he was. Maybe all those years with your husband taught you never to be a victim of someone else’s behaviour again.

It’s not possible for any of us to say who is and who isn’t a psychopath, that can only be done by a well trained professional. All we can do is research information and decide for ourselves whether we think a person is or not.

As for Tiger Woods, I haven’t a clue whether he is or not. I don’t know him or anything about him. To be honest, I don’t care what he is as he is nothing to do with me and never will be so I wouldn’t waste a minute of my time investigating his personality. Even if I did make the effort to do that I would never be able to judge anyway.
I wonder why you are interested? Do you know him?

Regards
Jan

Thanks Jan for your reply. To answer your first questtion, if I hadn't met the new guy, i would have remained or killed myself. The new guy is my doctor (no, he's not a shrink)at that time and I thought it was safe to confide in him, i told him everything, even my innermost secrets. Our conversations started off casually, until it became more flirtatious. He knows all the right words to say, his encouragements helped me find my strength and self-esteem, which by the way was destroyed by my husband. I really thought he was heaven sent. Well my husband found out about him and threatened to destroy his reputation, unless i signed off all our properties to him. Here i am worried it might destroy his career signed off all my claims to our property and just left with a chump change in my bank. Good thing I have good education and was able to get a new job to start all over again, new guy offered financial support, but i turned it down, I thought all along he was there for me (but I was wrong, I was just one of his puppets at that time)

His ex-fiancee sent me this..." you aren't the only love of his life that he can not wait to spend his honeymoon with (?). I have a list, I have proof, I have seen it all... all you woman think he's such a nice, sweet guy...so quite, so special, so thoughtful..I KNOW what he truly is and it's not my place to warn you guys anymore...He's LOVED THEM ALL, he misses them soo much, they are all his angles, and they are so special to him...My ex - well, it's funny how you all women - how you all have LOVED him so much, can't get him out of their mind and soul, how they will wait for him, how loving him hurts them so much,etc - keeps rearing your irritating presence back into a past I put behind. Not just you - another girlfriend has also contacted me too...You don't know the real Him,...I could provide you a list of names and I think it would turn your stomach when you recognize some of them. Funny I think, but pitiful and sad for those that still pine over him..."

She too was blindsided when she learned about me, both of us didn't know about the rest until she hacked into his computer and saw everyone on his list.

BTW, he does not have a son. When he talks to his father, he sound like a loving son. However, his parents divorced when he was 13 and sometimes i think he got an ax to grind with divorced women, you see most of the women he's involved with were either divorced, in the process of divorce or separated. He also has a penchant for expensive rugs. What I also noticed in his place was that, it was so messy, dis-organized, except the area where his stacked up rugs were. Also, he's a Muslim, but the only thing he does for his religion is fasting during ramadan and not eating pork. Before, I felt that maybe he thinks all us women involved with him are infidels and must be punished, or he's trying to get back at his mom, he speaks of his mom's husband with disdain.

With all the articles and posting I read, i really thinks he's a psychopath...it's the only logical explanation to his behavior, it gives me comfort to know that I am not alone. I have really not ended the relationship yet, I tried before but he won't let go, i promised to be there for him for always and I really thought that he and I have a special bond. I was thinking maybe giving him unconditional love might make him realize that there is someone who really love and cares for him and eventually will grow up, but you know what this is exactly what happened with my husband, i thought that he will eventually change, but it just gotten worst and it took me 20 yrs to realize that he's not gonna change. I think by staying with Psychopath#2 i will just be feeding on his ego. I was hoping there is a way to rehabilitate him, but according to Dr. Hare " Unfortunately, psychopaths already are aware of their own motivations, see little wrong with them, and do not believe they need to change. However, if they think that "rehabilitation" can serve their own selfish, pragmatic ends, then they are quite capable of playing the game, portraying themselves as a "saved" or "redeemed" sinner." so, there goes my answer.

As for Tiger Woods, I don't know him personally, it just that the persona he projected was also the same as Psychopath#2. You see him as wholesome,too good to be true, but there's lots of skeletons in his closet. Up to now, I cannot reconcile the Psychopath#2 i knew before and the Psychopath#2 that I know now. It's just ironic, Psychopath#2 being a doctor, he swore, first, to do no harm...but he's inflicting pain to many women. I once asked him, how can you cure a broken heart?...what a waste of talent!

I have initiated my "no contact" with him yesterday, and I am hoping this forum will give me reinforcements to hold my ground and be eventually be free from him. Everytime I think of him, i am telling myself that he is a psychopath, that i need to let go for my own sake. Thanks again Jan.

NO THEY ARE UNABLE TO LOVE

Hi Naive

I must apologise for misreading what you wrote about your ex being a good son to his father, not as I replied about him being a good father to his son. Although the same answer fits both scenarios. If he is a good, caring son then he isn't a psychopath but if he's acting (is there an inheritance involved?) then maybe he is.

It's not at all unusual ex partners trying to warn the latest victim but it could be for many reasons, the most altruistic being they genuinely care that someone else might get as hurt as they did and want to send a warning or it could be anger and bitterness that they have been hurt and just want to share it out.

You say that you think this mad has an axe to grind with divorced women, if he is a psychopath then they usually behave like a misogynist so it might be difficult to decide the reason he behaves like he does.

We will certainly support you while you are working hard to break all contact with this person, regardless of whether he is a psychopath or not, it's so difficult anyway. If he is there is no way he is going to change so please don't waste your valuable time on him. If a relationship is so bad it's pointless trying to make something from it. A good relationship gets better and bad one deteriorates.

It might help you to think of him as a stepping stone out of your old relationship and now he has served his purpose you have taken more steps ahead and left him behind. He had his use at the time but you are not going to turn around and go back to step on him one more time or that will lead you back to where you left in the first place.

No contact is the way forward.

Best of luck and don't feel that you can't share the lows you are going to feel in the short term, or the temptations to go back to him if he promises he will change. He sounds narcissistic so maybe he won't do that.

Regards
Jan

Jan,

You could be right with the inheritance part, his dad owns a considerable amount of properties and also, it's his dad who handles his business here, since Psychopath is living in overseas right now. I guess you are right with the warning from the ex, but what do you read from what she said about him? all his lies and deception and his disregard for our hurt feelings. He got the following characteristics:
superficial charm
self-centered & self-important
need for stimulation & prone to boredom
deceptive behavior & lying
conning & manipulative
little remorse or guilt
shallow emotional response
callous with a lack of empathy
living off others or predatory attitude
promiscuous sexual behavior
lack of realistic long term goals
irresponsible behavior
blaming others for their actions
short term relationships
What i noticed about him was his extreme calmness, his passive emotions, I thought this was because he's a doctor that he trained himself to be not emotional, he's also a military officer..do you think his training has something to do with how he can control his emotions? if he is not a psychopath, what if he might just need a lot of understanding. It also came to my mind to just think of him as a stepping stone out of my old relationship, but if he's not a psychopath, what will it make me, a user?

I really appreciate your help in talking this out. Thanks.