Dear Nan,

Thank you so much for your response!! Your strength really shone through… You sound like an incredibly strong and wise woman and you have been able to remind me of the qualities I once possessed -- and still do, as you so rightly state. It is just a matter of rediscovering these strengths and utilizing them once again. I found your words so comforting and reassuring. Everything you had to say made perfect sense and I realise that should I stay in this relationship, under any false illusions that things may change, I'll be in for one hell of an emotional ride! However, you are right in assuming that my situation is fraught with practical and financial restraints. Due to this, I'm unable to move out as quickly as I would like to, or as quickly as I should, making everything so much more unbearable. He realizes that, for the time being, I am 'trapped' and I realise that this brings him immense pleasure and serves his purposes to no end.


Having said as much, I am far more aware of what I have got myself into and my eyes are now open as to the kind of person I am dealing with. Armed with such information, it does help to protect oneself slightly more (keep in mind that an enormous amount of emotional damage has already been done, so ones normal survival skills are much reduced…)


I, too, understand that there is nothing within my power to change the way he is. It does become difficult though when you remember the better times that were had and the glimpses of normal behavior that occurred. A part of me really wants to believe that there is a decent, loving person inside there, capable of leading a normal life but I guess I'm not going to be the one to discover whether this is the case or not.


The children I mentioned are from his previous relationships -- I do not have any of my own. (Yet!!) Not for lack of trying or making plans to do so. The timing was never 'right', according to him. This was something 'we'd do in the future…' Like so many other promises and plans that were made, nothing ever came to fruition. In fact, any structural undertaking around the house (of any size) was always abandoned, incomplete. I used to joke about this -- I now understand that it's a common trait. As is the fascination with weapons. He has a favorite knife that is always used, regardless of the task; to eat with, make sculptures, open beer bottles, fiddle with absentmindedly… Going back to the subject of children though, I know I should (and do) count my blessings that I do not have to worry about having the ever-lasting bond we would have had created with 'little ones…'


I performed the Hare test and scored wonderfully well. I wasn't surprised at this stage. I expected the result. What I didn't expect was to diagnose my brother at the same time. My brother's traits are so much more obvious (and violent) yet I was completely oblivious (or unwilling to admit) to the seriousness of his illness. It makes so much sense now. My being in this current relationship makes more sense to me. It's as though growing up with a psychopath in my life as an adoring older brother has given me a foundation upon which I would always lay my future relationships. This additional explanation does not exonerate P for his 'crimes' in any way, I have still been cruelly conned by this man, but I believe it may have been made easier for him because, for reasons I want to investigate further, I perhaps naturally gravitate towards people of this nature. My P actually warned me of having a relationship with him at the beginning. I waved it off; told him I was a grown-up and could look after myself. Besides, I wasn't thinking about having a full-blown relationship with him at that stage. He changed all of that with his very focused and intense wooing. But I did see the signs, the red flags and I ignored them. Hence my little theory…


You appear to have made real progress with your situation. Your letter smacks of a person in control of her life. A question though … doesn't it hold you back in any way, to perpetually hear stories regarding a subject that you suffered so greatly from? I am keenly sensitive to this whilst reading stories from the forum and thinking of contacting some of the authors.


Nan, I really want to thank you again for taking the time to write to me in such a personal manner. You've given me a sense of pride again and made me believe in myself again. I am working very hard at all of this, but to have someone give you that extra nudge makes the world of difference. Particularly when they know exactly what you're talking about!


A big hug straight back at you.

Clarity

Dear Clarity,

Thank you for the lovely words about my strengths – they fell on a dry spot. However, please remember that communication like this doesn’t occur in a vacuum. I responded to a part of your communication and my response was based on what you wrote.

To answer your question: “….doesn't it hold you back in any way, to perpetually hear stories regarding a subject that you suffered so greatly from?”

No, not at all! Please don’t worry. I’m not through with this subject and I discover many useful and interesting facts, emotions and ways of dealing with it all, simply by reading other people’s posts and by writing a reply. Writing is very cathartic for me and I think that’s true for many people here.

“I am keenly sensitive to this whilst reading stories from the forum and thinking of contacting some of the authors.”

I sincerely doubt that you have to worry about contacting any of the posters in this forum. I have received nothing but kind and thoughtful replies to my inquiries. As well, we all use an alias for protection.

“…I realise that should I stay in this relationship, under any false illusions that things may change, I'll be in for one hell of an emotional ride! “

Please be aware that false illusions or no, you’ll be in a for a ride. “They” say that knowledge is power and of course, it’s important, but in dealing with a P, knowledge doesn’t get you very far. A P will simply change his tactics to suit the new situation or he’ll up the ante.

“He realizes that, for the time being, I am 'trapped' and I realise that this brings him immense pleasure and serves his purposes to no end.”

Exactly!

”Having said as much, I am far more aware of what I have got myself into and my eyes are now open as to the kind of person I am dealing with. Armed with such information, it does help to protect oneself slightly more (keep in mind that an enormous amount of emotional damage has already been done, so ones normal survival skills are much reduced…) “

Yes, your survival skills will likely be somewhat impaired. Ali’s advice to consider the help of a psychologist or psychiatrist is right on target. From the book, ‘Charmer and Tyrant’ by Alv Dahl and Aud Dalsegg,.comes this advice, which I’m quoting from memory. The authors suggest that whatever you do, it’s important to hold your cards close to your body. Don’t tell him that you know what he is. Don’t tell him what your plans are. Please don’t tell him anything.

They also suggest ways of minimizing the inevitable fights and temper tantrums. If he starts a complaint about XYZ, instead of defending yourself about why, you simply say, “ Yes, you’re right! The dinner was late/the kitchen is a mess/the children are noisy/your shirt isn’t ironed,” as a response to whatever he says is wrong. By agreeing with him, you take a bit of the wind out of his sails. As well, you avoid being on the defensive, which is what he wants. When you’re defensive and submissive he can play his games of attack and dominance.

Please do not make the mistake of telling him that you plan to move out. He’ll stop you for he needs you. He needs you to be his mirror. He needs you for totally selfish reasons that have NOTHING to do with love. His needing you is NOT based on love or affection or trust or any of the usual reasons why a partner will feel deep sadness and sorrow at the prospect of losing a friend and mate. This man found you. You’re his property. He used you. He conned you. He took your money. He took your pride and your innocence. If he is violent, (and most P’s are) he may beat you up, hurt you physically or even take your life. Telling him what you plan to do will make him up the ante in ways that you cannot foresee.

”A part of me really wants to believe that there is a decent, loving person inside there, capable of leading a normal life…”

Of course, you want to believe that. It’s human nature. To believe otherwise, we have to accept that we loved someone who didn’t love us back. Waking up to the awareness that we were used, abused and manipulated instead of loved, honoured and cherished, is SO difficult and heartbreaking that many of us here still have trouble believing it, hence the name of the thread.

Every day, the P I knew enters my mind in some way or other and I’m forced to deal with the fact that in this case out of sight doesn’t mean out of mind. I can go through the same incident over and over, looking at it from every conceivable angle until I’m blue in the face. I don’t want to think about the things he did. I don’t miss him, not even a little, but I suspect that he will continue to be a ghostly factor for a while – or at least till I have made peace with myself – till I’ve accepted what I know is true, namely that he didn’t care about me, that it was an illusion.

“…but I guess I'm not going to be the one to discover whether this is the case or not.“

The women who came before you - the women who will come after you, and believe me, he will quickly find another woman, no one will ever discover such a thing for truly this man is NOT a decent, loving person, capable of leading a normal life. If you allow yourself to think this, you will be doing yourself a huge disfavour.

”I performed the Hare test and scored wonderfully well.”

I am glad that Ali told you about this. One of the reasons why this forum is such a good place is that you’ll get the benefit of many different people’s point of view. The Hare test is a great tool. However, I am a little confused. You scored yourself, or you scored your partner? Or both?

“It makes so much sense now…..for reasons I want to investigate further, I perhaps naturally gravitate towards people of this nature.”

There is some evidence that support the fact that the victims of psychopaths “naturally gravitate towards people of this nature.” Often, the victims are people who are naturally kind and supportive toward people who have had a hard time of it. People with an idealistic worldview or people with high ethical and moral values often have a hard time believing that other people can behave in ways that are so totally foreign – it simply isn’t part of their worldview. There are many and varied explanations for why we fall for the charms of a psychopath.

“My P actually warned me of having a relationship with him at the beginning.”

Oh yes! The P I knew did the very same thing. I was told in very clear terms that he was this and that, though of course, he never said that he is a psychopath, he simply pointed out the different facets of his personality. I should have believed him, but like you, I waved it off.

“But I did see the signs, the red flags and I ignored them.”

Welcome to the club!

We will all do our best to answer any inquiries that you may have and reply to your posts as honestly as we know how. You’re among friends!

So, take heart and write when you can.

Nan

Dear Nan,

First of all, let me clarify one little point. Again, I use some sarcasm in my tone, which is where the confusion arose in my last post.


”I performed the Hare test and scored wonderfully well.”


NOT ME! (LOL) I did the test on P's behalf, like all of you!! I'm sorry I placed a double meaning there. That wasn't my intention and my flippancy was obviously highly inappropriate...


I want to insert a reply to Ali here as well, and then I can continue and write to the 2 of you
at the same time.


Ali,


Thanks for your speedy response and sorry it's taken me this long to reply and thank you. Your words, like Nan's, were of enormous comfort and having my feelings validated is helping to
keep all of this under some kind of control. It also helps me to stay faithful to my beliefs (i.e., I'm
not the crazy one here!) and I think that with continued communication and support from those on the forum, it'll be that much easier to make the break.


Yes, I am rather concerned about my state of mind and due to this I have arranged to seek
counseling. This should start next week. I do have my doubts about this though -- I do not want to wallow in issues arising from my past. I want to focus on what is taking place at this moment in time, and from past experiences, albeit very limited, analysts seem to want to take you back in order to deal with the present. Having said this, there is a connection I have made with my childhood and adolescence, which revolves around my brother (also a P), so perhaps in this case it would behoove me to 'dig around a little.'


Yesterday I received a call from my P (he is currently away on a project), asking for my assistance in certain matters. I happened to be in the middle of my daily research on P's. Has this helped me? Yes, and no, but a small 'no.' I still felt a mixture of alarm and confusion. This, from merely hearing his voice! My confusion stemmed from an eagerness to hand out the required information -- am I still wanting to please this man?! Next came the plea for sympathy and compassion and the feigned act of concern. "I'm really lonely out here ... how are you doing?" , etc., etc. Incredible!! His audacity is astounding but I know it's far more complicated than this but it just never ceases to amaze me.…


I simply cast to one side, any thoughts of him being 'lonely' and perhaps sad. We know this isn't the case. Yes, they are able to miss the company of others as normal people do, but it derives from having nobody to adore them, to serve their purposes, to demean, to humiliate ... to ultimately control. From feeling 'lonely' I know that he'll need to remedy this ASAP, which will probably manifest itself in seeking solace in the first kind, nurturing, unassuming female who happens to fall in his path. Thankfully, he will not be there long enough to build a relationship -- but I remind myself that this is exactly how we started out:-


A short period together, away on a project ... him feeling sad and lonely (experiencing problems back home relating to a separation) and then, when back home, the onslaught of wonderfully, romantic emails leading to meeting up again and the nightmare starting. If only I knew then what I know now. If only I could be there to warn his next 'target.' But these future women will not listen anyway. It would impossible for them to imagine this enigmatic, charismatic, insanely charming, intelligent, handsome, kind, funny ... yes, funny and 'caring' person to be the abuser I'd be trying to describe.


Besides, a part of me feels it is not my responsibility to interfere. Nor do I have the strength to remain in his life in this way.


Very little time goes by without me thinking about him or the situation; about things that have happened, things that have been said... I find this sooo draining. I seem to be utterly consumed by it. I go to sleep far too late and every rising thought is to do with him. Not the best way in which to start one's day. I know this road to recovery is going to be a very long and painful one. I just want it to be over now. I want to be happy and lively again -- all the time. I do go through periods of feeling fine and they become more frequent. I try not to spent too much time alone and I'm seeing my friends again and being sociable but the negative thoughts seem to be constantly lurking like a brooding cloud overhead. I also have to deal with his return, which is not far away. I have a feeling that he'll be back on so-called 'good behavior' because he'll notice a big difference in me. There'll be more energy that he will pick up on, more energy that he'll need to feed on.


Your advice re. "minimizing the inevitable fights and temper tantrums," is very good advise and something that I had naturally begun to do. It will serve me very well during this next period.


I keep wanting to thank you! And so I shall - THANK YOU!!


Oh, I know what I wanted to ask -- do either of you have new relationships yet? Has this helped to heal some of the wounds? Just wondering what the future holds for people who have had their image of love battered to such a degree....


I'm sure there is hope. In fact, I like to believe that what may come will surpass our most wishful dreams!


Clarity.
more & more with each passing day.

Hi Clarity

Glad you will be in counselling soon. I hope you get a counsellor who will take you seriously re the P issue, and will work with you on the issues that bother you. If this doesn't happen once you have had time to build up a rapport with him/her, change him or her for another one. And hang onto the fact that as you say, you are NOT the crazy one! Hope you keep us up to date with how it goes.

Have you had time to do much reading yet? I've found a place where you can download Hervey Cleckley's 'Mask of Sanity' from the internet (its apparently out of print and hard to get, so they have permission to make it available in this form) Hervey Cleckley's 'Mask of Sanity' Its in PDF form so if you don't already have Acrobat reader you may need to download it from the Acrobat website. We've just started going through sections of it in our support group (yes guys, the support group is finally happening - just had our second meeting, and its actually great to be able to discuss this excellent book with other victims and a qualified counsellor). Very much recommend it.

When does P get back? Hope not too soon, as the more you can read and come to terms with before seeing him again, the better it will be for you.

You asked about post-P relationships - this is something I still have a problem with, and in fact is how I came to find this forum. But no doubt I will get my head around it in time, and it sounds like other ex-victims have managed to find loving partners and have good relationships.

All the best

**edited to make link clickable, scroll to right hand side to see the book, Di

Hi Ali, hello Clarity

just time to have a quick dip - and got the link you posted so thanks for that - now I can read the book at my leisure.

I am facing up to another row with my ex-solicitors - i.e. still fighting the aftermath after 5 years! I wonder if there will ever be away to get the "system" to listen and protect people form the male and female Ps in this world. How can we help to start something - without putting our children back in risk from their P parent?


Hope all your lives keep getting better

Recovery

Hi Recovery

Sorry you're having legal problems again. What is actually happening with all this now? Where do you stand legally, and is it still a problem for you to go home?

I agree that we need to somehow team up and start raising awareness as well as probably doing some lobbying re P's and the law.

I hope you manage to get it sorted out.

All the best

Hi Ali

Well nothing new is happening - its all aftermath. This one was about my solicitors. I was trying to have the law society look at the case and take action agasinst the solicitor as her lack of action/belief etc played a massive part in my ex escaping from his actions.
They went through everything - not - took them 2 years - and said she acted professionally - despite giving out our adddress twice to my ex, and refusing to get the court to look at his psychiatric record,and what he had done etc etc . I could go on in detail. But it boils down to the fact that each and every government department, external organisation, legal firm etc has a complaints system - but they are all self govering and mainly run by their fellow professionals and so are highly ineffective at policing themselves. So no matter what procedures and policies exist the P slips through because the professional is taken in by them and when the masks slips then self preservation kicks in - not protect the children - well that has been my experience.
And - though the pleasure of losing everything cost me £12-15000 in legal fees befor I got legal aid. The solicitor is still trying to get me to pay another £3000 for work she said was done but which was not billed until 6 months later - by then I was penniless, jobless on legal aid etc and living down here. But technically I am supposed to penalise my daughter more to find money to pay them for helping this all to happen! It makes my blood boil. I am still working out what to do next. I have never been in debt before and I don't want to be now. Yet I am certainly sooooooo unwilling to be forced into paying money I can't afford for a service I did not get.

It also meant that legally he has still full rights over our daughter. At any time - if the mood suits - he could start up again.

My family would like us to move back in the hope he would leave us alone. But he wanted us out of the way so he could play his games on others, I can't take the risk of going back unless some of the truth has been made public - but too many people have been used by him to cover up his actions and are too worried for their own position to tell the truth - good old catch 22. Need to go back to expose the truth - can't go back until the truth is out. The key thing being my daughter's safety - both now and the future.

But I still would like to think I could do something to help future victims get a better deal.

Sorry for the spiel - you did ask!!

Hope its better with you.

Recovery

Hi Recovery

I do hope you can get it sorted out. It seems criminal to have to pay so much money to someone who failed to protect your child. And it must make it very hard for you to get on with life with all of this still hanging over you.

There must be SOMETHING we can do about the legal status of P's and children, if we put our minds to it. In fact, the United Nations Declaration of Rights includes clauses about children's rights to protection, so one could take this kind of thing very high indeed. This is not the right forum for discussing the usefulness of the United Nations in general, but the fact is that governments have signed these rights declarations and are legally bound to abide by them.

I feel that its important that people like you speak out, because without public awareness, nothing will ever be done about it.

Maybe we should start another website purely to gather these kind of stories and ultimately use them to lobby governments etc into revising children's rights in this respect? What do you think?

Hope things sort themselves out for you. Just keep plugging away at it and take it higher up the ladder every time! Hopefully you will finally irritate someone enough to get something done.

Things are pretty good for me at the moment; P has not made any more attempts at contact and I'm feeling much more at peace.

Hang in there and stay strong! All the best.

Hi Ali,

Re: Children's rights and their protection according to the UN.

I think you're on to something.

I wonder what preceedents, if any, there are from the United States Supreme Court.

Does anyone know?

Seems to me that if you can quote legal preceedent to a lawyer you are much better off.

If it sounds reasonable to use preecedent, I'll try to check what's up on the other side of the pond.

Nan

Nan and Ali

I agreee that there should be something - locally by country or via UN or via the EU etc, and I am sure they will all have the policy and procedure. But where it goes wrong is the lack of recognition of what a P is and how they can damage adults let alone children, their own being no exception.
I have no proof - he used his contacts to see to that - so according to the system in which ever institution I can do nothing as I have not got proof.

The destructive nature of the P and the serial nature of their methods is well documented - as on this site - yet their manipulative and lying nature is ignored and they are given every opportunity to weave their stories and play with the system - at what cost to the taxpayer let alone the current victim I dread to think.

Me ex shows the classic P pattern and keeps repeating it with a new limited cast featuring the current victims - I'm sure most P's do the same. Insted of branding both spouses as vindictive etc in a divorce case or similar maybe the assumption should be that if the case is bitter and turning into a feud then maybe it is because of the classic P and their victim struggle. Its a change in mindset of how "feuding couples" are interpreted that is needed. Then the eyes of the system might be open to having a real look at what has caused this. If the dispute is really just 2 people out to hurt each other then they could be helped thru mediation - something that is impossible with a P.

Maybe we need a website purely for lobbying - especially as I am sure a lot of fathers on the father 4 families (or waht ever ) are Ps stil trying to control the system. Others probably have a P for an exwife and are like us in being victims - but we need a voice to say it is unsafe to give (some) fathers /mothers automatic parental rights - .....

Nan - you seem well positioned to head a lobby group - could you? I know my problem is lack of time. But what I have got I would like to put to good use.

Anyway just some thoughts. Thanks for your comments.

Recovery