I am sure there are a lot of members out there reading our posts, relating to our stories, perhaps drawing some parallels
with their own experiences. We would really appreciate hearing from you as it helps with our own healing as well.

Rick

Hello everyone

I have been reading the posts on this forum with great interest since I met one of your members on another forum and her story sounded so much like mine. This was only very recently, and it is the first time that I have thought that my husband could be a p. I thought that he had some kind of psychosis but now I understand the distinction.

I know that no-one here can diagnose him, but I would be interested to hear what others think of the possibility of p, and also I would be grateful for advice for the future apart from the NO CONTACT advice I have seen, which I intend to comply with.

I was swept off my feet by a man (I will call him p for now)who seemed perfect and who actually wanted to father my two children from a previous marriage. However soon into the marriage I hit problems when I found out that he was severely in debt but had omitted to tell me apart from mentioning his car (not expensive)was on credit. The reality was way above this. He only told me because he ended up unemployed soon after the marriage (and has remained so mostly). I was shocked that he could have deceived me by this ommission particularly as I had been married to a compulsive gambler previous (and he knew this) and I had been left to starve frequently. You would think that he would have realised I needed honesty more than most and financial stabilty and security.

The thing which hurt me though was the lack of real understanding or concern about what this knowledge would do to me. I lost respect and trust in him yet he did not even seem to be really sorry. Rather sorry that he had been found out. Whenever it was mentioned later he was always defensive saying, it was in the past why did I have to bring it up and he had said sorry what more did I want?

The amount was colossal for a young man who had been still living with his kind generous parents at 26. He lacked all sense of ecomomising, and resented my attempts to reform him (!) I had an inner feeling of something not right and felt that he was trying to change my sense of reality. I can remember a frequent saying of his 'Just you and me' and his belief that no-one was to be trusted. My family and friends soon disappeared from my world, seemingly going a bit strange with me. I have found out from my daughter that he would say things to her to sabotage our relationship. She soon started to cause a lot of trouble and was very angry with me whereas before we had a good relationship (she was 10 when we married) I lost contact with her after she went into care at 15 (she says because of p) and she did not want to see me. She said recently that p had kicked her and broken her leg.

Recently after over 20 years of a very unhappy marriage where he has totally disregarded all of my feelings, and where there has been constant issues and arguments over money and sex, he had very callously told me that he wants to end the marriage. But not a clear message like this. He seemed to be saying that he found it hard living with someone (anyone) and wants to live alone but for us to stay married and friends but this did not match with his behaviour which seemed to say that he wanted out of all obligations to me, and he had certainly started to treat me differently, with a great lack of respect. But he is never straight in what he means, it is always shrouded in this nice guy image (which most people are taken in by) Glib charm explains it perfectly.

Finding this forum has opened my eyes to so many things which puzzled me in the past and I am on to him now, which he knows and his treatment of me is deteriorating all of the time. He is verbally abusive and has been throwing things. He now thinks that we can stay in the same house and live separate (a strange turn around even considering the lack of opportunity for separate houses at present) This is not what he was saying in the first place. It is all a confused message from him which has been traumatising and confusing me but I am making sense of it all now and know that he is doing it to hurt me.

He seemed willing to find somewhere to live and this is what I want now but it will leave him too nearby and convenient especially as son no 1 will still be here (21) I would rather get right out of it but there are problems with housing and my health which is very poor. In fact living alone will be a major challenge for me.

I am going to a refuge soon for advice but I understand that not a lot is not known about p's.

What would others advise. Should I stay and ask him to leave or get out? I have opened my own bank account now and am trying to save some money. I have found that all of our money has been disapprearing since I left the finances to him a year ago since I have been more ill. I am still discovering the extent of what has been going on and the extent of all the lies he has told me. His insistance of separate finances has backfired on him when I came up with a scheme in which he keeps his disabilty payment to himself but stops him having access to the family finances.It is so fair that he is having trouble objecting due to the involvment of the boys who seem happy with the new arragement which will give me the opportunity to save. This house will have to be sold probably but I wont have enough to buy again and it will put me above benefit levels, so I will lose most of it.

And what do I say to my two boys at home who think that it is mainly my fault? How do I tell them if he is a p? The 21 year old is a sensitive lad and has an unhealthy relationship with his father. He spend hours trying to 'talk sense' into his father and actually father him instead of getting on with his own life.

P has got both the boys to lose respect for me and has actually projected himself onto me and they think that I have mental problems whereas I have just been stressed out of my mind. He has really set me up and has been giving the boys loads of money, making me worry about where they have been getting it from (the 21 year old is deeply in debt himself now) and making me confused about where it was going, hiding bank statements, using a seperate account etc and making it seem that I am paranoid and controlling.

I would really appreciate comments. Oh just as an aside, I think it more than coincidental that the decision to separate has come at the same time that he as discovered the stock market.

Hello again

I would really appreciate hearing from someone. I am feeling very traumatised by what I am discovering and have no one to talk to. Thanks.

Hi Benda,
Welcome to the forum. I stopped by just for a moment. Keep coming back you will find so much help available here. Don't give up on us. There will be someone here eventually. I don't come on here as much anymore but this place saved my life. I was so lost and only the people here knew what I was going through. Again, welcome, and hope to see you here again.
betterway

Brenda,

Welcome to the forum. You are asking all the right questions and doing all the right things. I'm sure that I can speak for all the forum members in saying that we feel your frustration, disappointment, disbelief, dejection, and hurt. It's a difficult place to be in. Believe me though....even though you will feel like you are on an emotional roller coaster....it will get better. The more you read, the more people that you talk to.... the better understanding that you will have about dealing with your P. You will be amazed at how many repressed/supressed stories and situations will come back to you. If you can see a therapist or counselor that has experience in dealing with personality disorders all the better.
As far as all the individual catastrophe's that you have experienced are concerned both financially and personally .... it is a hard place to be. You should take comfort in the fact that you did not experience any physical injuries and that your life has not been threatened.
If you have not read Dr. Hare's book ... Without Conscience ... pick it up. It is one of the best sources of information that I have read. So, read, read, read, talk, talk, talk. I have encountered many other people that have experienced the P personality....people that I would never have imagined and these exchanges have been invaluable in my process.
It is going to take some time for you to feel "normal" and trusting again. From my own, limited, experience with a P...
I can only say that no contact has been the way back to recovery for me.

Rick

Hi Brenda

Just read your posts. It certainly sounds like your man is likely to be a P, especially since he has managed to persuade other people that it is you who have the mental problems. This seems to crop up in so many people's posts - and every time I read one of them, including yours, I am struck by the fact that the person writing the post comes across as totally sane and logical ie not a mental problem in sight, except for those caused by the stress of living with a P.

You are in a very difficult situation, since as you say it will be hard to manage financially etc with living alone. However, it sounds like in the long term your P is much more of a financial burden than an asset. If you can persuade him to go and leave you with the house, so much the better - though he may prove very difficult to dislodge. My own decision when I left mine was to just go and leave him with absolutely everything, for the sake of my sanity. My daughter and I have had some rough times financially but I have never regretted that decision. However, I was in good health and still had something left of a career, so the cases may not be the same.

You mention the possibility of losing benefits if you sell the house. It may be a good idea to visit your nearest Citizen's Advice centre (or the equivalent wherever you live) to try to get some idea of the best options open to you. If you took in a lodger or something, would you be able to keep the house? Just a suggestion.

It is so sad that he has put your children against you. However, in time, they will no doubt come to realise where the true problem lies. For now, all you can do is keep loving them, and try not to let the P provoke you into any illogical or heavily emotional behaviour that will reinforce his claims that you are the one with the problem. (Easier said than done, but it is something to aim for!)

I really hope things work out for you.

Thank you so much for responding. I had a bad night last night so really needed some imput. Each step I take in understanding the last 22 years and having more lights switched on is both liberating yet at the same time, horrific and traumatising.

Hi betterway

Yes, I have found this site, and the older one on psychopathy to have been life saving. I particularly found an article on manipulation and control so revealing.

Hi rick

Yes I can see that things will be much better as time goes on and especially when I am apart from p. The last few days have really destroyed all of my trust in him since I have found out to what extent he has been lying to me and I will never believe anything he says from now and I want to be away from him. Yes I am getting repressed situations etc back and understanding the conflict I was always in between what p would have me believe ie his version of the 'truth' and what others and common sense seemed to be saying. Because of wanting to make the marriage work, for the childrens sake and because of the commitment I made before God, I often had to stop thinking and give my husband the benefit of the doubt and try to see things his way. His way was certainly convincing but not quite enough. I can now see that others saw through him. But he had me thinking that he was always misunderstood and therefore a victim. It is so wonderful to have this conflict ended and to see him as he is. I am looking for a counsellor but things like that are not easy to find in the deprived northeast of England. The new centre I have heard about will be a difficult journey due to my health but I am determined to get there when they open again next week. I have ordered Dr Hare's book from my bookshop so am looking forward to reading that. The thing that i was wondering about was, is it more about the criminal p's? I want something that my son's can read and where they will recognise their father.

Yes I can see that it takes time to trust ones own judgement again. What helps me here is that I have changed so much and have grown increasingly aware of what my husband has been doing manipulating me as I have been wising up. I put this down to the work that God has been doing in me in healing me from a life of abuse and setting me free. I know that I will not be vulnerable again in the future and besides I will trust Him to bring a future partner to me if that is what he wants for me rather than me be alone. I did not ask Him to choose in the past and made three bad choices.

Hi Ali

Thanks for your comment. I was even thinking last night, was I a p? I know it is just stress. The difficulty living alone is not so much the financial but because I have nearly total allergy syndrome and react very badly to all chemicals so that I cannot even use unscented (they are scented to me) household products so that I could do my own housework or travel outside etc. I am hoping to get advice about the house this next week. It will have to go according to DSS rulings whoever leaves, but it would be better for me to have time to find somewhere suitable.

Thanks a lot for that advice to not become emotional so that the boys are reinforced in what my husband is telling them ie that it is me who has the mental problem. I have been making more effort to talk to them to break that division my husband has developed between them and me. I can see the sense in leaving things to pan out but is it best to tell them what I am learning yet or is it best to wait until I am away from my husband and more out of danger as he is becoming more and more aggressive towards me?

Thanks for being there. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Hi Brenda

Re your kids: My advice (dunno if its good) is to be very sure in your own mind of all the facts before you think of breaking it to them. Research as much as you can, and know exactly why you believe your husband to be a P. There is no hurry; rather be sure and do things in your own time. What age are they? I do think also that it would be better to make the break first, and get your life going on an even keel. They will then be able to see the sane 'you' - away from the P's unbalancing influence. Things may get worse with them for a bit, as the P will try to make them adopt his point of view, but this will pass. Just love them, and be you, and you will find that they will eventually relate to this.

I'm so glad that you have got closer to God thru all this. Me too; without Him I would still not be able to cope, even now.

Re the allergies: I believe that allergies and stress are closely related, and if you can get yourself into a less stressful situation you may find that all of that improves. I really hope so.

Brenda,

Yes, Dr. Hare's book is focused on the criminal psychopath. The body of his work was conducted in prisons, so it makes sense. However, within the individual stories patterns of personality traits and conduct emerge that reflect the various experiences that we all share as victims. And he does write about noncriminal psychopaths as well. I recommended the book because it is extremely informative, accurate, well organized and easy to read.
It is a sad truth, but psychopaths will try to turn others against you... particularly when they know you are onto their game. All you can do is be the best person that you can be... truthful, consistent, loving, a woman of integrity... and set a good example for your children.
A few questions if you don't mind? How does your husband respond to criticism? Most psychopaths cannot tolerate it.
When posing questions to him, have you ever asked him how he "feels" about something? Try this, rather than asking him yes or no questions. Even if you get into an argument with him....press him to explain/express his feelings about the situation. He will, most likely, find this very confusing
unless he is very cunning and has learned certain buzzwords to deflect you. Most psychopaths cannot accurately describe the mid-range emotions and feelings that we take for granted....love, sympathy, empathy, etc...
If you do have to encounter your husband on a daily basis approach the situation consciously. Try, as hard as you possibly can, to remain calm and not let your emotions show in your face or your voice....even if he tries to argue with you or upset you somehow. Again, he will find this very confusing and frustrating.
Rick

Hi Ali

Thanks for that, it has really helped me. I thought that I ought to let the boys know soon because of my mothers instinct to protect but you are right. Yes I must take more time to be absolutely sure it is not some other personality disorder and it would be best to wait till I am on my own. That is soooo helpful and has taken a lot of pressure off me. I have noticed that the boys are showing even less respct for me at the moment and I will have a rough ride with them but the truth always wins in the end, right? They are 21 and 17 by the way. Yes I know that the allergies will improve once the stress goes down. I read somewhere that the best way to make someone smaller in your life is to put more into it and I have decided today to try to get more Christian contact locally. I can't go to church because of my health but I could make more contact with Christians I knew from the past and have lost touch with..

Hi rick

My husband is HIGHLY intolerant to criticism, even when warranted. At the slightest hint of it he becomes extremely defensive and aggressive. I will try asking him about his feelings. Thanks for that tip. I have already disovered that he becomes subdued and confused if I show no emotion. I am finding that hard at the moment but will try to do it more. These are very useful tips on how to cope with him until I am on my own. The thing that has caused me the most upset is the callous way he cast off the 22 year marriage as though it was like changing ones clothes. The things he said were so hurtful I can hardly believe he said them, like he said he knew early on that he had married the wrong one and that he has been living a sham. I know that it was not like this but he is doing as much as he can to hurt me as he dismisses me from his life. He even said that he was really really sorry about not telling me about the debt when we first got married and sounded like he really meant it for the first time but I think that he only put it on to hurt me more by putting something right that he had never done before and therefore making me want to try again with the marriage. Sorry if that sounds confusing but is this common to be so calculatingly cruel? The cruelty does make it easier to show no emotion as I have no love left for him now. (but I know that I must forgive him) Is forgiveness something that you have seen as a necessity?

Brenda,

Psychopaths will say anything to get a rise (a reaction) out of their victim....particularly when they feel that the victim is pulling away or has lost interest in them. Nothing is oustside the realm of fair game for them. This is why it is important not to buy into what they are saying....whether it is hurtful, remorse, whatever. You know how he operates now.
As healthy human beings we are intuitive to other peoples emotions and subtleties. Psychopaths cannot due this...in my experience at least. So, if you can remain strong when you are in your husband's presence, talking on the phone with him, etc.... and try not to show any emotions you will have the advantage. If he says something hurtful or engaging... merely say "I'll have to think about that", "that's interesting" or something along those lines. You can also employ the "feeling" strategy that I mentioned in my last posting when he brings up unpleasant topics and subjects...
always focusing the conversation back to why he "feels" that way, etc....
Certainly I have the benefit of distance. I haven't seen my P in over one year. So, I know some of my advice may sound simplistic and I only hope that I could follow it should I happen to encounter my P accidentally. However, I can still understand your feelings of betrayal, the confusion and frustration.
In terms of forgiveness I think this comes with time and a better understanding of what is going on with your husband. It's hard to forgive a condition that you aren't 100% sure about. Still, though, we all know that it is possible to love another person.....but it doesn't mean that we are able to be around them and share our lives with them. After all, that love comes from us....and if it isn't reflected back to us in a natural, healthy and nurturing manner it's best if we leave it be.
One last thing that you may have read here before. It is quite helpful to journal everything that you experience and feel. Going back you will be amazed at the feelings and situations that your mind files away and covers up.
All of us are sending out tremendous amounts of positive energy and love to you. You are a good person and this is not your fault. We all want to believe the very best and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And yes, as you stated, the truth ultimately wins out.

Rick

Hi Brenda

Its great that you are taking so many positive steps to move forward. So long as you are doing this, life will continue to get better.

I do agree with Rick that keeping a journal is a great idea. It is somehow much easier to write out all the hurt than it is to think it through or even discuss it with anybody. It really is a good way to understand your own feelings and to put them in perspective.

Your boys are at a difficult age anyway - boys seem to go through the hyper-critical, self-centred stage round about then, whereas girls usually do it earlier. It is also an age where they can unconsciously mimic the P's behaviour and treatment of you. My daughter went through a time of doing this; funnily enough, we discussed it just the other day. She says I pointed out to her that she was behaving towards me just like P did, and it gave her a huge fright at the time as she really didn't want to be like him. So yes, you will have a rough ride for a while, but take heart. My daughter and I now have the most fantastic relationship; she is the best friend I have and is now so good to me. Yes, truth does win through in the end.

I know things are hard for you right now, but they will get better. In the meantime, the AA/Al-Anon concept of 'Just for Today' is a good way of getting through - don't know if you have encountered this, but it is possible to do/bear things 'Just for Today' whereas if you try to look at days/weeks/months of problems, it is too much to cope with. (See http://www.sygnetswans.com/alanon.html)

Hi Rick

Thanks for that advice of keeping a jounal. I can see that it would be helpful, as being on a roller coaster can be very disorientating. I am so very grateful to you all for the help and support you have given. It has really made a difference and I am much more centred now and more detached from what is happening. I am also developing an interest in the condition of psychopathy and hope to help others in the future who are coping with it.

Hi Ali

Yes I see the sense in taking one day at a time and just remebered that it was the way I had to learn to cope with other crises in the past. It is the way that we must live as disciples also, totally leaving the future to God, and putting the past behind us. In fact it is the best way for anyone to live. If we live in the past or the future we miss what is good in today. I certainly prefer having the knowledge that I have now gained than the confusion of the past. I think that once we can get over accepting that things are not how we wanted them to be and accept reality instead then we can live our lives.

Thanks guys. Any books I should think of getting after Dr Hare's?

Glad you're feeling more in control Brenda. I hope it continues to get better. Keep in touch - you are in my prayers.

And to everyone else: all the best for 2004 - I hope all of us will continue to develop a P-free life for ourselves and grow stronger. Thanks to everyone on this forum, and especially Di, for helping me to reach a better understanding and move forward. KT - haven't heard from you in a while. What's happening in your life? Recovery - did you manage to go home for Christmas? What's happening with you? Rick, Lynnie - and everyone else - you've all been so great in coming up with new ideas and insights - hope you all keep in touch in 2004.

Thanks everyone.

Brenda,



I am happy that you are getting a lot out of the forum. It provided me with a tremendous sense of support,understanding and validation at a time when I needed it.

It's great that you are keeping a journal. Also consider marking your calendar indicating when you are cycling, spiraling, at your low points. This "roller coaster" seems to be another aspect of the fallout that many of us have in common.


One other book that I read, recently, left me absolutely speechless. The Devil in the White City, by Erik Larson deals with a rather gruesome subject matter....a serial killer stalking Chicago in 1893, juxtaposing his antics with the building of the World's Fair during the same period of time. While most of us are fortunate enough that our psychopaths are not serial killers (that we know of at least) I found that this novel offers tremendous insight into the minds of both the psychopath and the victim. It is scary, but enlightening. You may want to wait a few months before you read this one.

One movie that you may want to rent is Sliding Doors. It is also a good example of how manipulative certain people can be.... lying, cheating, crafty.



Rick

Hi to everyone, esp Ali and hello to Brenda - I have not quite caught up with your story. We are just back form Christmas in Scotland and it was great to see the family. We had no contact with the ex and so we could relax. Family etc keep asking when we are coming back - they think that as he has not been near us for 3 years he won't get up to his games again. Though I and a few others think different and I am still angry that we sort of live in exile as the system does not recognise the danger in Ps. I still pray this will change in time and with all our help. I hope you are all well and finding peace. I am going to catch up with the postings now.

Happy new year tae een 'n a' (one and all)

Recovery

ps a positive note from my daughter, She was practicing her underwater summersault and I swam up to ask if it was succesfful - " as successful as HP trying to tell the truth" was her response. HP (heartless plop) is what she started to call her father before we left Scotland. I feel better that she has him sussed and she is confident in handling what he is about and why we are here, not bad for an 8 year old. I know she will master the swimming as much as I know the P won't stop lying.

biee

Hi Recovery

Glad you managed to be with your family. And glad your daughter has the P sussed. Kids are not stupid! I'm sure she will be fine; she may have been unlucky in her father, but she has a Mum who puts her welfare first, and that is more than many kids have. I guess its hard for your family to understand exactly how devious and dangerous a P can be, but I think you are right in making sure that he cannot under any circumstances have access to your daughter.

All the best for the New Year

Well, I have been reading the posts for a month now and I really relate to so much, but my situation is a bit different, it was my son in law. He was what every mother wants for their daughter, handsome, sweet, loving....and then after 3 and 1/2 years of marriage-gone. We were devastated, my daughter and I, she did not see it coming and just 2 weeks before he left he told me nothing could ever break them up they were so connected. I am still in shock, he left without looking back. About a week after he moved out he wanted me to let him come here to get the rest of his stuff, they were living with us to save money for a house, they did live on their own for 3 years. I told him that was betweeen him and my daughter, so I did't allow him to come over, but I did try to make him understand what was going on, the hurt he caused and all of the things my daughter did to support him and love him. It did't matter, he met someone else, it was over. He did want to keep in touch with me since we had such a 'great relationship', again I said no, when he left my daughter, he left us all and to keep in touch with him would be a betrayal for my daughter. Please don't think I didn't want to, boy did I and I still do. I ran into him a month after he moved out at the Dr office and he tried to give me a hug, I again said didn't want a hug, but I really did, I wanted to hug him enough to make him want to come back! Impossible, I know. He has been so cold and callous since he left, like my daughter never mattered!
My real problem is-I feel like there is something crazy wrong with me, why do I care, my daughter has meet another man, is dating and seems happy, but I miss the son in law I had, the one who always told me how lucky he was to have a wife like my daughter, and a family like ours, and yes a mother in law who was wonderful and fun and pretty, he had no worries how my daughter would age if she looked anything like me. Please don't judge me too harshly, I was abused as a child and althouth married to a wonderful man for 28 years, the compliments were nice. I had wieghed more than 200 lbs and had gotten down to a size 9, so it was nice. Now I hold all the other young men my daughters date to his standard, and it was way too high and perfect for any one to reach. He listedned to me and fed me back what I wanted to hear.
Will my daughter really move on? Can I? When I read your posts you all seem so understanding, how do you reconcile it in your head that this person was a liar? Was he always a liar?

Welcome to the forum. I so understand what you are saying. Although our situation is different, how we are affected by the P is the same. The P. I knew was such a charmer telling me what I needed to hear. He made life fun. He entered my life with a bang and left with a bang. Wow, what happened is all I can say now. The memories of the fun we had is what made it so hurtful to say goodbye. I thought nobody could ever take his place and you know what they can't, and thank goodness they can't. I had to go. He was a P. and a P is a P is a P. He will not ever change. He even told me that. The pain of staying was more than the pain of leaving (I see that now). There is another side to the P. that they try to hide so much and only those that get sucked in and are his true targets come to know that awful & evil side. The P revealed his evil side a little at a time over several years in such a sneaky way, that it confused me and kept me stuck for a long time. In the end he revealed to me very clearly how evil he was. However, if I confronted him, he told me "he had no idea - what I was talking about". He set me up to look like an emotional basket case, and I played the role well (for awhile)until I found this website. Recently I was with a friend at the mall and the P. came around the corner. I took off the opposite direction and my friend stayed to chat. My friend told me that most people stick around to at least say hi to someone they know. I know for me I must not engage in conversation with that P. He is dangerous. Talking to the P. gets my head spinning then I start to question myself. As long as I stay free of him, I know I am not crazy. I know that he is a P. I don't want to ever forget he is a P. because I would then get sucked back in. Yes it would be the normal thing to do to speak to someone you know but dealing with a P is not a normal thing. The P. is very shallow he knows how to play all of those around him to benefit him. Don't be too hard on yourself. Keep learning all you can and eventually you will see him for what he is. "No Contact" is what has saved me. I today, can honestly say it does get better. But I didn't believe it when I first started the no contact rule. All those around a P. are affected. Keep coming back! Learn all you can. The fact that you are here shows how much love you have for your daughter. One other thing, I think the P. I know charms everyone and must be loved by everyone. It is part of the game. He has to have an audience.

betterway

Hi Rick

Thanks for the links, they are great. Good tip to mark the journnal as to whether one is spiraling etc. It has been a great help to have the journal. The roller coaster thing is typical of trauma is it not? Thank goodness the ride is getting less bumpy. I got Dr Hare's book and read it. At first I thought oh no these examples are way too extreme compared with my husband but still I recognised all the traits but not as pronounced. But there again I thought that maybe it is because I am close to him that I don't see it as bad. What did strike me though was he said about the use of language in p's as I have always been puzzled about my husbands use of language. For one thing he did not see the necessity of abiding by any rules spoken or unspoken and insisted that he would use words in whatever way he wished to use them and also be contradictary if he wanted (which he is) and he also pronounced things in a strange way like d-warf. He just insisted on the right to make up his own rules (in fact for eveything)

Things have changed a bit in that the p wants us to continue living in the same house for the time being, and live however he wants, coming and going as he pleases without saying anything and leaving me on my own a lot and I am wondering whether I can manage to live like this for now as the alternative arrangemnt of us selling the house and me being left to find somewhere else (seems impossible to find anywhere decent)and then having to live off and see all of the capital disappear before I can get back into the benefit system as I am too sick to work and do not have enough to buy another home.

My health is very low at the moment with discovering about psycopathy and p unmasking and I do not feel in a fit state to move at present. I am thinking of perhaps staying put until something turns up and I suppose the possibility will be regarding how the p is going to treat me now that I am on to him. On the other side though, he is out most of the time and if I keep my mouth shut maybe he will leave me alone as he is (possibly ) looking for his next victim.

It is awful having to see him all of the time with the knowledge that he has abandoned me and abruptly ended our marriage but finding out about p means that I have no hope or desire to stay with him anyway if he cannot change (and he has never shown any desire to do so) I do feel quite strong now and have a strong faith to sustain me and I have also got a good financial arrangement going where he has not got access to the family funds as before. it means that he gets a very large amount to himself but that is better than before and means I can scrape some together for the future. Has anyone else been forced to stay with a p for a while before they could sort out separation?

Hi please help me. You will get a lot of help and support here. The more you learn about p's the less you will miss them.

Brenda,

I'm glad that you were able to read Dr. Hare's book. As I mentioned in a recent posting, pick it up again six or eight months down the road....you will find even more information when your head is in a different place. I'm also happy that you found the links useful. Yes, the roller coaster of emotions is typical of any traumatic event. However, these emotional waves seem to roll on for months to come and hit you when you least expect them to. And considering that you are living with your husband still, you have to confront the situation on a regular basis I assume. Hopefully, he will find a new target and move out, move on.

Rick

Hello PHM....

Welcome to the forum. I'm very happy that you have found the postings so helpful. I felt the same when I first realized that I was dealing with a P.
Yes, your story offers a slightly new angle on the P situation. While you are/were directly in contact with the P in your life, you have the benefit of a modicum of distance as he was your son-in-law. Still, P's spin their web of attraction around anyone that will offer them narcissistic supply. It is incredibly seductive when we meet someone that appears to be so ideal. However, when we realize that they merely mirrored back our own feelings and desires it can be quite disheartening. I can totally understand your emotions though....wanting to continue to be around this person. It can be intoxicating in a way.
If your son-in-law is truly a P, I would seriously consider the no contact rule. I'm curious though....you have said that this man just left after 3 1/2 years of marriage. What traits, other than being charming and callous, did he demonstrate to make you come to the conclusion that he may be a P? After all, there are a lot of men out there that simply find a new love interest and move on.

Rick

Thank you for your response, betterway, thank you for the encouragement.
To rickb1, I got to thinking he was a P because at first, I just could not understand all the 'perfection' and then all the coldness, I happened to be in a classroom where the subject was P's and the similarities were amazing. First, since I only saw the beautiful side I didn't realize what was going on 'behind closed doors'. He blamed my daughter for everything, she got fat (gained 5lbs) on the pill, she was a virgin on the wedding night and this was really a turn on for him, but he was awful in bed, and he controled it all. He would always wait until she was so tired, so I told her to start it earlier, if she did, he wasn't interested.

She was 6 years younger than him, so we were watching him closely, she was 17 when they met, he 23. He was so open and talked to us so much we were comfortable, after asking our permission, which we thought was sweet, then he proposed and the planning started. He was always wonderful and would call just to talk to me someimes.
Then as suddenly as it started my daughter was stuck, she thought that was how marriage and sex was supposed to be, how would she know? She isn't a complainer,so she didn't tell me anything until after he left. I am not sure this makes any sense, I was sick yesterday and the meds have not all left so I feel like I am rambling.

He said that he had fallen out of love after 6months! yet stayed and NEVER said anything to anyone. Not his family or ours. Yet my other daughter never liked him, I thought it was that her big sister was leaving, but she said something about him wasn't right. Others that we were around said he never made eye contact with them, or never spoke to them.

My biggest problem is that I feel so guilty, would my daugther have stayed, did she marry him only because she thought I wanted her to? Before she walked down the aisle I told her that If she wasn't sure, we would just have a party, she didn't have to get married. I don't know, being a mom and watching your child go through that is awful.

See, now my daughter is dating again, but she wont talk about her P so I still only see the good side, not now, no contact is the best, but I only remember the way he was with me, your stories show me that the few things she has said are enough and I 'fill in the blanks' myself. I see we were blessed that she had no children, she wanted to wait, and so did he (said that anyway) and the woman he left with has a child, a toddler. My daughter said that the times she would hurt the most she would pray for the little girl, since what kind of a mother did she have, that would live with a married man after knowing him 3 weeks! Thank you for 'listening'

PHM....

The most fascinating aspect of dealing with P's are what their victim's will overlook or dismiss. We are aware when someone displays positive and negative attributes. However, we don't conciously recognize when something isn't "right" or something is missing. As I have stated before, it's like a good murder mystery or thriller. There is always one piece of the puzzle that makes the entire movie/book make sense. We just don't see it at the beginning!
It's interesting that your P wouldn't maintain eye contact with people... and that your other daughter felt that "something wasn't right." Many of us have felt the same way...though we couldn't pinpoint it at the time. After all,
we all want to trust and believe the best in everyone.
I can understand why you feel guilty. Many of us have felt the same way. Trust me though, you could not have seen this coming. P's are extremely cunning and, even though you have been through this, it is entirely possible that it could happen again. So, keep your eyes open and question, question, question.
Talking about this to as many people as possible, at this point, will be quite cathartic. And although you daughter is quite young, you can still discuss those emotiona and characteristics that she would be wise to look out for in the future.

Rick

rickb1, what else is strange is that no one told us what they had seen, they saw and never really grasped it until the end. My daughter is young and smart-she received a bill that the P should be reponsible for and she said it was not worth contacting him, she knew he wants to control things so she stays away. She is smarter than me, I thought she was acting strange when he left, she would not cry and beg him to come back, I think he wanted that, she said to me 'why, so I can lose my self respect and wonder when it will happen again?'

I am already feeling better about things, I didn't realize how much this could help. You are so compassionate. My daughter met our P at church, married, and was involved in ministry, now she doesn't go to church and is afraid of marriage. She plans to live with her boyfriend now, this worries me a little, but she is in God's hands and He never lets go.

Thank you, betterway, I was rereading your reply and started to think of things that did bother me- one he was very paranoid, thinking people may break in at any time, he slept with a loaded gun near the bed and would 'startle' easily at night, I always was afraid he may shoot my daughter, by accident. He was in the military, but chose to do things to get kicked out when he had an injury, because he was no longer the favored one.

I must have been his dream come true, I am always accepting and maternal, took in foster kids for years and just 'adopt' people,and I fell for him hard, he reminded me of a little boy that was stretched big. Boyish yet had a sexuality about him, but that was all pretend. I felt as though my beloved son ran away from home. I felt angry that my daughter was hurt so much and I was hurt so much. Telling this to you has really helped me, there were periods of time today when I didn't think about my loss. It is freeing. Wow

Hi Brenda

It must be very painful for you to stay in the same house with P, but I think this often happens - it is not easy to rearrange your life at a moment's notice and just walk out, especially for someone like yourself with health problems. The knowledge that you've gained should help you to some extent to keep an emotional distance, but this is not always easy. And you may find that if the P realises he can no longer touch you emotionally, he will try all the harder to humiliate and hurt you. I hope not, but be prepared for it if it happens. I think you should use the time to plan your exit, so that if it becomes intolerable, you can leave gracefully. Look at all your options. If you don't want to sell the house and lose your capital, could you rent it out, and use the money to rent yourself something smaller? Or if the house subdivides nicely, could you rent out your bit and leave the P where he is? Are there any ways that you could work from home to supplement your income? What are your skills and talents? Can any of them be used to make money? There are places on the internet where you can find work to do at home, but beware - most of them are scams and want you to put money into things - though there are a few genuine ones. Look for home employment agencies rather than home get-rich-quick schemes. And start getting your things slowly sorted out so that moving will not be too dramatic if/when it happens. If you have a definite plan for moving on, I think it will make it easier to put up with the trauma of having to live in the same house as the P. Good luck.

To Please-help-me: Welcome to the forum. I'm glad its helped you.

Hi Brenda and everybody,
I just wanted to suggest another book that really helped me. It is called "Stalking the Soul" by Marie-France Hirigoyen. It is also another one of those books like Rick1 says you should read it once and then again later when you are more into recovery. I had PTSD really bad when I first read it and I had to put it down and not read it for awhile. However,I left it on my nightstand so I would see it daily and remember what I was dealing with. It helped me to get through the early stages of No Contact.
betterway

The P. was so jealous of everybody. He could not be happy for others good fortune. He thought everybody was out to do better than him. If anybody spoke of anything good in their lifes he would say they are just bragging and he hates people like that. Yet the P. was always saying how if everybody would just support each other then things would run much smoother. To be on the P's good side a person had to bow down to him. You have to live and act on his terms only. Treat him as if he was a king. And of course I was treated like a queen in the begginning and I treated him like a king. I had him on such a pedastool. Yuck. When I started to see through him and his games he had to shut me up and psycho terror began.

The P. was always going around bragging about how this person or that person was in love with him. He would also say some people just don't have sex appeal like he does.

By the way, just a note, the P. I knew was an office P. We were business partners. I just have to say beware of all P's no matter what your relationship is with them. They can do terrible damage no matter how you know them. I almost lost my spirit and my love for my career because of that P. and I am now better and finding peacefulness again, and I must say it it because of absolutely "NO CONTACT". It took me along time to get there and many tries at it and I have finally succeeded for a long enough time to feel some of the benefits of "No Contact".

What is so ironic is that the P. had me under such a spell that I wouldn't talk bad about him to anybody. And if I did I was under so much fear that he would find out and punish me emotionally. I had so much loyalty to this P. One time I told the P. I don't speak bad about him (because he was so paranoid that others were) and he said yeah but one day you will. At the time I was puzzled about what that meant, now I know. Sometimes when I share on here about the P. experience I feel a little bit of guilt. He is a very intelligent P. and I now believe he knows exactly what he is doing and he loves every minute of it. He lives for the excitement and drama that he creates around himself. He didn't care what kind of attention he got from me, only that he got it. My pain meant nothing to him. I have trained my mind to see him as nobody, that he is nothing to me. I had to retrain my thinking about him to be able to let go.

It is a wonderful thing when we have moments and sometimes days where the P. doesn't even enter our minds. What a blessing!! It is also a wonderful thing to look back now and not have the memories send me into a PTSD episode.

Thanks for letting me ramble. It is very healing to just write it all out.

betterway

Dear betterway

And it is also healing for me to hear about others experinces with the p. I never said anything about my p to others. It was though I was too precoccupied in trying to work out the chaos of my life and trying to understand and help p, to think of myself and how being married to him was affecting me. I can't believe that I never researched personality disorders either, but I was researching neurosis and psychosis as he had me fooled and the medical profession that he was mentally ill (though he did receive a schizoid personality disorder diagnosis to add to his depression/anxiety disorder)Neither are correct. I spent a great deal of time fighting for disability benefits for him while he just stood by 'helpless' to sort that out for himself. Now he has shaken that off and has suddently lost his symptoms.

Mine wanted intense attention from me and got it by making me either angry or go into help mode to get him to see that he was being unreasonable about something. I have spent 22 years tring to reason with a p!!

I will certainly be looking for p's from now on (hopefully not obsessively!)and see that any contact with them will be harmful.

I too had to live on p's terms to avoid conflict yet he often said he resented that everything was done how I wanted it. I was a very good money manager when I met him yet had to live in financial chaos with him. And listen to him bad mouth every single person we knew (yes jealous of everyone)and all types of people and if I get fed up with hearing it he said 'But I thought you wanted me to be honest' I never twigged on that one at the time. 'I' wanted him to be honest!! Like, he wanted to be dishonest!!and it was a new thing for him to be honest! Which was the truth! How blind I have been. Yes my p is highly intelligent but has been putting an act on that he cannot understand things in order to control me and the boys.

Thanks for the name of the book. I will try to get it.

Hi Ali

Thanks for all of your advice. Yes I am planning my furure. Because of the benefit laws in the UK it is very complicated and advice is not easy to come by.I could not leave and rent the house out or stay and do it because of its size and my condition (I would have to ban all perfumed personal hygiene pruducts!) It is a requirement that it is sold so that benefits can be stopped. But I have just thought of a posible way out, by getting p to leave and me borrowing his share of the house to give him. It will leave me very poor (and I will have to choose between heating the house and eating sometimes) but I will have peace. I would certainly like to be able to earn working at home. But the DSS laws would cut off my benefit and I would not be able to earn enough to compensate or have enough to live.

I really feel as though things are moving forward for me now and I have lost that helpless powerlessness I was feeling until recently where I could not stop crying.

I am also past the stage where I doubt whether I have got it right or not about about p. I KNOW beyond doubt that he is a p. I still get pangs when I think of 22 wasted years and ruined health but I believe God's word when he says 'I will restore the years the locusts have eaten'. And he is some BIG locust!

Love you all.
Brenda

yesterday I wrote: >>It is also a wonderful thing to look back now and not have the memories send me into a PTSD episode.<<

Just one comment about that. At the time it didn't bother me to write that stuff. However, I had bad dreams about the P. experience last night, which hasn't happened for quite some time. That reminds me that the P. experience was very traumatic and even after many months of no contact it can effect me. I still believe sharing is very healing and as I get better and better I will be able to share more and it is healing even if it set me back in my dreams.

Hope everybody has a great P-free day!

betterway

Hi, Brenda, I am new to all of this but you asked if forgivness was nessesary, and I wanted to say something about that. Unforgiveness is like an acid- it will eat away at the container that holds it, so yes forgiveness is important, but remembering is different. Only God is capable of forgiving and forgetting, we remember, which is good since that is how we are able to learn and grow. Forgiveness is for YOU, not him. I will be praying for you, you are in such a difficult situation and yet are able to reach out. I understand your worries about your sons. It is really hard to be a parent, when do we talk, when do we keep quiet. Only you will know when the time is right for you and them, no one else will know.

My daughter talked alittle about the way an argument would escalate into her yelling and crying, just to get some reaction from her P, I can see that if your children saw you acting this way they could misinterpret into thinking you had the problem, You are so smart to avoid that behavior even though it is really hard. In your area, do you have something like a Safe Nest? They may have free counselors, also the church you were attending may do free counseling for you, just so you know how to handle your P in a calm manner. Also, it will feel empowering to have people 'on your side', so to speak. God bless you.

Betterway,

Oddly, the same thing happened to me recently. I have been relatively PTSD free for some time now. However, two nights ago I had a rather disturbing dream involving my P and his brother. Fortunately, the feeling didn't last for too long.

Rick

I think the holidays are good at bringing out memories. I imagine bad dreams and spirals are probably at a peak during this time. I tried to circumvent this by taking a nice, relaxing vacation away from home to avoid the holiday blues. And I did very well until I got back home.

When I got back, I had a weird emotional event (probably hormonally enhanced). My current beau, who is kind, sweet, generous, smart, etc. said a few things that I misconstrued as mind games. When I got upset and talked to him later about it, he explained his intent and it all made sense. But at the time, I had gotten extremely upset when I thought he was toying with me.

I have never been very tolerant of dishonesty, white lies, mind games, or even practical jokes. However, I had been overly accepting of all this when I was with P. Now I cannot tolerate it AT ALL!

Is this normal? Has anyone else experienced this? I know I need to "lighten up", but my defenses are so strong that I can't take joking, teasing, bluffing, etc. like I once could. Any thoughts appreciated...

Lynnie

PHM,

I liked your thoughts on forgiveness (and remembering). However, I have had a hard time forgiving the lies, betrayals, threats, and mean things he said and did. But I guess I need to figure out how to remember those things and also let them go completely so I am no longer affected by this poison.

Lynnie

Lynnie, it took me a long time also, about a year, so understand yourself and give yourself the time YOU need. The betrayal was so intense for me, that I still hope that the woman our P left with is a P also! So it is easy to fall back.

People have seen our P recently and said he looks awful, lost hair, and gained wieght (he was always working out before) and it is funny because he is always with the child of this other woman, I think she needed a babysitter and played on him and his 'perfection' complex. He told us that she had been praying for a perfect husband and God sent him (but he was someone elses husband) He told me that he felt god sent her, I agreed and said it was a test and he failed! Anyway, we are free of his presence if not the aftermath of the betrayal. Give yourself time.
Please help me

Hello please help me

Yes I agree with you about forgiveness and that really deep full forgiveness can only occur through God's work in us. I think that forgiveness is like an onion in that it is in layers. Sometimes we manage to get to a stage where a few layers have been peeled off and we can put it out of our mind a lot of the time and get back to functioning but if some other crisis or ill health pops up then the old layers that are still there let themselves be known. A lot of the ability to forgive comes I think in recognising our own faults or sins and it again is only through God that we can really see ourselves as He sees us. Then when we know that He forgives US even though we do not deserve it, we can go on to forgive others.


Yes my husband has been acting like the sane one and I have been stressed out of my mind with his mind games and lies. Now that I am much more in control and calm, he has gone into overdrive in being kind and understanding towards the boys and still making me out to be the bad one.

I have actually talked to the 20 year old son and told him what I think. He is listening but coming up with doubts such as his father seemingly love for animals. It's funny that he acts kind to animals but not to me! The boys cannot see this though. I do feel that my son is listening and I have been told by him that the p is contradicting all sorts of things I have said and my son does not know who to believe and that he is being torn in the middle to take sides.

I have told him that I will not be upset with him if he chooses to believe his father as I know that the truth will come out in the end so not to feel pressurised from my side.

I said that I will leave him to make his own mind up and that I have every confidence that he will come to see the truth and that he should not feel that he has to make any decisions at the moment but just observe. I said to him 'Does it make your father happy when we two are getting on better?' and he said 'No' which made him think. The other son is being totally taken in by his father at present and is being bombed with attwention and flattery from him.

I have also had to admit to my husband that I am researchimg personality disorder and he knows that I think he is a p. I said to him that it must have been terrible for him that his psychiatrist have never listened too him because all of the things he has always said about himself are actually true, like his lack of emotional life, depression (it is in some) from early age which is not the same as normal depression. He was quite grateful to me for showing him some understanding but straight away started to blame his mother. As I did not confirm it with him he soon lost his gratitude! It is always someone elses fault with him.

No I do not have any source of help part from God and I am practically housebound.

I agree that the holiday season is the reason that dreams have been experienced. Things like this always come back at times of stress.

Do you think that I am in danger because p knows I am on to him in a big way? Do ther p's recognise that they have it? Do nay get helped?

PHM.....

Even though there is a list of P characteristics, it doesn't apply to all P's so stringently. Every P is slightly different... as we all are. My P was very kind to animals and did not exhibit any cruel behavior to them....that I witnessed at least. My personal feeling is that he gravitated towards animals because they don't require any reasoning and provide a tremendous source of attention.... if he's late to feed the dog, the dog isn't going to ask for an excuse !
In terms of your husband knowing that you are "onto him." Again, each P is going to react differently. However, he is exhibiting many of the classic traits. He is trying to hold onto his core group of narcissistic supply (his sons) by telling them whatever he needs to keep their alliance....or spoiling them. My P did exactly the same thing with his family. However, once his family really understood what was going on with him...and his neatly arranged world started falling apart...he threatened me as I was the person that turned them against him (see....they ALWAYS have to blame someone else and can never accept responsibility for their actions.)
Now that you "know" the balance of power has shifted. He may think that he's in control....but you will always question all of his actions. P's don't like that one bit !

Rick

Funny, my daughter's husband also liked animals, cats actually, and he told her that after he left he really missed the cat (not her, just the cat).

I have seen my husband cry over the death of a rabbit yet he exhibited no sorrow at all when his mother died. He has admitted to murderous feelings towards those who are cruel to animals. Was this just a show for our children? I don't know.

Things have got much worse. The night beofre last he was drinking and started an argument and I fell into the trap but stayed totally calm. He says that I am the p and he has actually told people in the past and all of those who stopped contacting me, had been told by him including e-mail contacts. I checked sent (he doesn't know about this function) and found it was lies. He is unbelievably nasty now but next morning its as though he said nothing.

I will have to go to bed if he has started to drink. He is now sitting up with the boys till 2 or 3 am, chatting to them being so nice to them, totally disregarding my need to get to sleep then they all stay in bed till lunch time. The youngest boy is rebelling against me now and contradicts everything I say.

He is so funny now when I just say to him 'Fine, think whatever you like, I don't care what you think'. He really hates this as I have spent 22 years wearing myself out trying to talk to him getting him to 'see sense' or change his mind about something, most of it just put on by him for the attention I think. He would say something provokative and then I would spend hours talkking to him as I am a 'fixer'. This past year I stopped doing it totally and he changed towards me.

I have been in touch with the DSS and the mortgage laenders and I think that I may be able to manage to buy him out. He will still live nearby but it will be preferable.

My daughter once said that the most emotion she ever saw from her P was when their cat died, and we still didn't see it until we looked back.

I found this song that the words hit me like WOW, I have to share it with you all.

I Survived You
by Clay Aiken (this is not an ad... just amazing)

I see the picture clearer now
And the fog has lifted
The wool you tried to pull over my eyes was clever
Yeah, you're gifted
But you forgot to dot some i's and cross some t's along the way
I'm better now dispite you baby
I'm strong these days
Stronger

I survived the crash
survived the burn
survived the worst, yeah, but I've learned
survived the lies
survived the blues
Almost killed me but I survived the truth
I survived you

I can look in the mirror now
Its been a slow awakening
Haunted by a heart full of you
couldn't help mistaking
that you could ever care for anyone but yourself
that you would have a conscience baby
Good luck I wish you well

This heart's been torn in two
cut and burised
with too many bitter endings
and I'll be damned if I have thoughts of you
rain on my new beginning.

The chorus does repeat at one point, but you get the message. I sure did.

please help me
(it did)

PHM....

Great song. Wow...does that sum it all up! Thanks for sharing that with all of us.

Rick

This song felt good, like we are not alone

Funny about the person saying the only time the P showed any emotion was when his cat died. I swear the only thing my ex-boyfriend P really cares about his cat. I have never seen anything like it before, the way a grown man fusses over his cat. I often thought to myself, if only he could treat me like he treats the cat.

Hi Brenda

So glad you may have figured out a way to keep the house. I pray it works out for you.

I guess it was only to be expected that the P would get worse. As you say, best to keep out of his way when he's been drinking. There is absolutely no point in holding any kind of discussion with a drunk P - not sure there is any point in holding a discussion with a sober one, either! I really hope your situation can change soon. Meantime, just hang onto your belief in yourself, and your belief in God.

Thanks Ali

Just keeping my head down. Found out that p has been reading my posts on this site. Oops! Did'nt see any point in not using my name as he would guess from what I say that it is us.

Have realised that I have PTSD. Anyone know how long it lasts generally?

Can't wait to be on my own.

The worst part of it, or one of the worst parts is that when a normal relationship breaks up, you still have your fond memories of the good times. When the P relationship breaks up all you have left if a pack of lies. The hard part is pulling down all the memories and the realization that it was all false and the person that you cared for wasn't real.

The fond memories have to be pulled down though. Once it is all pulled down, then you can move on.

To me the relationship was like a drug - great but it will kill you in th end. The only thing is to break free - hard but an essential thing to do. As a friend of mine told me "You deserve better than this"

Mark,

Welcome to the forum. Fill us in on your story...if you are able to do so.

Rick

Thanks Rick,

It's been over 16 years since I got free but it is something that you never forget. I have had some good relationships since then. It does open your eyes to other people and occasionally you meet people who may well be P's but you can spot the warning signs and I generally steer well clear of them - it doesn't happen very often. I wonder what percentage of the population are like that.

In response to:
'a friend said you deserve better than this'.

A good friend of mine said:
'you deserve so much better than this because you are so much better than him and you would never in your wildest dreams treat people in the way that he treats people'. She also said to keep on going as the real one could only be a day away who knows? Her words helped me tremendously. It's 7 months today in fact since I broke up with my P and I can finally begin to say that I'm feeling happy and normal again for the first time in 8 years!!

Where to start...? Firstly, it's very difficult for me to label the person I have spent the last 3 and a half years with a psychopath. Even more hard to accept is the fact that I still hold very deep feelings for him. It is less than 24 hours ago that I realized, with horror, that my partner reflected practically every single characteristic associated with APD and NPD. Does this mean he is a psychopath?


Although it has come as a dreadfully painful surprise, I have always had the feeling that something was terribly wrong, that the relationship was unhealthy, and more importantly -- that his behavior was not normal. I had always viewed myself as a confident, strong and independent woman capable of leading 'normal', loving, healthy relationships (as I had done before...) but this current episode has shattered my foundation and has left me a shadow of my former self. I used to have a fantastic, well-paying career which I thrived on for almost 15 years; working 12 hour days, sometimes 7 day weeks and traveling a lot. I loved my job, I loved the way in which I was able to interact with others and truly participate in life. All of that has gone now and with it, my independence. I spend my days trying to regain my confidence, dwelling on and yearning for the person I used to be, questioning how everything has gone so wrong. I have become dependent on my partner for money, a home and, to a certain extent, companionship. I barely recognize myself and it is this person that he has grown to view with contempt and treat with hatred, disrespect and cruelty.


Reading some of the posts and having done some of my own research, I feel stronger in the knowledge that I am not completely to blame for what has gone wrong in this relationship. It is so comforting to hear other testimonies that mirror what I have been through and what I am currently enduring. It gives me hope to realize that there is life after an experience such as this and that there is a support network out there, for those that choose to reach out.


During some of my more painful periods I resorted to writing (to myself!) in order to release some of the clutter in my head. I have attached excerpts of this with the hope that some of you can confirm (or not...) that what I am going through is borne out of having a P in my life. I would also love to learn more about how to cope with this new found knowledge and how to deal with the consequences ... how one gets one's life back on track...


To offer a little more background: I have been with my partner for almost 4 years. It was an exciting, sexy, incredibly intense first year, not necessarily without its ups and downs (a term that has become a common thread in our relationship - a yo-yo love affair...) I moved in with him (at his request) a year and a half ago. He has 2 wonderful children - from 2 different women. Both relationships lasted less than 2 years. His relationships previous to these also lasted less than 2 years. He is kind (or used to be kind), v. intelligent and brilliant at what he does. He used to think I was brilliant at what I do. I now do relatively little.


N.B. He owns two houses next door to one another. Since the relationship has deteriorated to such an extent, i.e. the long periods of silence, I now reside in one of them, the newer one (studio style - where the 2 of used to unwind) while he remains in the 'family house'. This is where the children also stay during the weekends... I now find it impossible to be a part of their weekend lives, although I want to and I miss them terribly, but the boundaries have very much been set and I am simply no longer included.


I now no longer recognize the person I loved (love?) so deeply. It is as if he takes pleasure in seeing how much pain and suffering he can inflict me and, at times, on others. He delivers his blows in various ways; snide comments, contradictions, violent outburst during which false accusations are made and insane judgments are passed, withdrawing completely for days, often weeks on end, without so much as a hint of an explanation. And then there is the added cruelty, during these periods, when he will laugh and be merry and be oh so kind to everyone other than me. Simply, I am punished for crimes I know nothing about and therefore I am with little ground on which to defend myself. When I read this back I still have doubts as to whether I am being foolish ... my comments seem somewhat ridiculous, lacking in substance but I hope with the little I have explained (both here and in my 'diary') you will be able to help me understand more and lessen the desperation I feel. If I were to sit here and attempt to document all the unjust acts that have been committed -- you wouldn't have the time to read it.... I probably would not be able to recall all of them, so skilled I have become in burying them in the back of my mind.


I have to start trying to help myself and protect my... self.


Thank you for this outlet.
(and apologies for the length of the following...!)


Many things have gone wrong and I do not understand why. It is crucial for me to understand so I can begin to correct the situation. But I don’t know where to start. I have no inclination to assign blame to any particular party. It would be too easy. There is a list in my head that I live with day to day. If so and so had not have done such and such to me…. If such person had accepted their responsibility… etc. I do believe in some of these assertions but I also believe that I only have myself to blame. I have reacted in a certain way to certain events and these reactions have not made the most appealing examples of my character. From here a pattern was formed, from which a cycle evolved. It is one that I am honestly trying to break; First, I must understand completely the inner workings of this pattern. It involves admitting to some ugly facts and having to undo decades of believing one thing when another was true. It will unbalance me, it will unsettle me, it will, in effect, throw me back to a stage I believed I had left far behind me. I only hope that I can recuperate these years in not too long a period. I can only trust that I have the courage to persevere with what I have to do. If I have reached the point, where I'm able to question my situation, then perhaps there's a chance I can strive a little further and engage in the work necessary to change what needs to be changed, and prosper from these changes. To live a more content life, in peace and in happiness,


He came and apologized. He's trying. This helps remind me of my love. To me, this is hope.


Hope … until it happens again. It's Thursday, less than a week after the above was written and once again I find myself sitting, contemplating why I have to endure this.

Why should two people constantly have to attack each other? (Me constantly in defense…) They shouldn't be together. We shouldn't be together. At times like this I hate him. It was only a few hours earlier that I stated this fact at the top of my voice. Screeching for all and sundry to hear. Violently throwing small items of furniture around the room. This evening I was tempted to throw the remains of my drink in his face. I came so close. He would have had to retaliate. Perhaps I wanted him to. Perhaps I am trying to force the issue. Trying to make him attack in some physical way leaving me with no other alternative than to leave (him). I shouldn’t need to resort to such means. It is bad enough as it is. To have to defend myself in ways that would seem ridiculous to any other sane person should be enough cause to end this and move on. Find happiness or at least peace elsewhere. I keep forgetting what he's really like or what he can be like. He has not addressed any of the issues that create such huge barriers between us, preventing us from developing as a couple. I can't see this relationship going anywhere. I can only feel pain. I know I have lost the sympathy and support of my friends. This leaves me feeling alienated, alone and confused. It's been a hellish year and a half.


Since the very first day I moved in I've been living in a daze. A cloudy, misty fog-like state keeping me trapped in my own profound misery. I feel completely incapable of doing anything about it. He told me last night that I was a person with no responsibilities. This, of course, was not meant as a compliment. He doesn’t see the difficulties I have had to contend with. I see his. I see them clearly and I feel his pain, I offer my compassion, my support, my strength and my sympathy where I feel it will be of use. None of this I receive in return. I contend with character assassination, betrayals, false accusations and judgements. To be confronted with this on such a regular basis simply causes one forget the person they truly are. To remain in a situation like this simply confirms that I am neither the person I used to be nor the person I consider myself to be. Either way, it's a shocking revelation.


Yesterday night we slept apart, as we shall tonight.


Yesterday's events were triggered by his reckless and common use of xenophobic language against the Brits. I could have remained calm, but I'd heard it too many times before. I had to defend the country of my birth and upbringing. To make matters worse, it was directed at a friend, using personal information I had innocently offered up in previous conversations. I felt outraged by both his indiscretion and lack of respect for me and that related to me. This was not the first time. Is it a French trait that I should be less alarmed by? Do I take these things too seriously? I think not. I've not had to listen to such before, why should I have to contend with such obnoxious speech from someone purporting to be my partner? It doesn't feel right. It’s yet another red flag. It shouldn't be like this and it hasn't been like this before. I should follow my instincts but fear is getting in the way. I admit to that. What happens next? We sleep, in different houses. Awake in the morning. Perhaps he apologizes and perhaps I accept. Or we say little about the incident and time passes by, with it our unresolved issues, swept under the carpet. We move on. A few hours or days later something else will crop up. I'll try to keep matters calm, he'll do his best to offend and provoke until he achieves his desired effect. Misery. And thus the cycle starts again…


It's now 2004. Sunday, January 18, to be precise and we find ourselves back in exactly the same position. Which is no real surprise. I am dealing with the same mental and emotional abuse with the same amount of unabashed cruelty attached. The only difference this time is that I am determined to put a stop to all of this. I am fixed in my decision to leave. His behavior has forced me to take this stance. To some extent, this is the outcome that he desires. For me, it's the only way to remain sane. I feel my personality changing, I feel my mind becoming more and more dull as I am drained by the effort required to keep the relationship going. It is so wrong - a very simple statement but a true one. I felt crushed to hear the words "your love doesn't make me happy ". I couldn't respond, in fact, I found it hard to breathe. Whether he truly meant what he said is beside the point. The words were used to inflict pain and he achieved the desired result. The irony of this incident is that the words so easily could have been uttered by myself - in all honesty - but I could never intentionally hurt him in that way. I am therefore left with a very clear picture of whom I am dealing with, which makes it easy to know what to do next. I know how painful the departure will be. I can't lie and say I have no feelings for him any longer. I do. But I care more for myself. I'm scared of how my life is turning out. I'm scared of not having a real chance of being in a decent, loving relationship - one in which children can be produced. I'm scared of losing my identity to a person who couldn’t care less.


I feel numbed by the whole experience. I feel incredulous that I have been involved with someone so selfish and deceitful for so many years. I feel foolish and humiliated and damaged.


A few days have passed and little has changed. At times he appears to act with remorse but soon returns to behaving with little compassion, as if nothing had taken place. A few nights ago he spoke my name in the middle of the night, as if to wake me from sleep. He then caressed my back and kissed my neck and hand as I feigned sleep. Before leaving in the morning he planted a kiss on my lips that was so tender I wanted to cry. He has mentioned nothing about any of this. It's impossible to comprehend such behavior. It confuses me but it doesn't deter me from doing what I know I must do.


It's hard to express clearly how I feel. There are so many emotions travelling through me. I feel it best to try and ignore most of them, as there is no channel to use to release them. Talking through this with him would help navigate a less painful road to separate from each other but that is simply not going to take place. I'm therefore left with spaghetti like junction of feelings to contend with alone.


Mon Jan. 26th.
Yesterday, when I thought about adding to this makeshift journal, I had done so feeling much more positive about the situation. I was (and still am) determined to forge ahead with my new plans but it was with a touch of excitement at what the future could hold that led to wanting to write more optimistic words. Today I feel desperation and such sadness. All to be expected - I held no illusions as to how painful this will be but at times I feel completely at the mercy of my pain. It leaves me feeling so powerless that I ache from within. I want to scream I want to exhale all the pain I feel but I can't. It all seems out of my control, which leaves me feeling utter desperation. If my feelings for him were less strong, I feel sure that my handle on this situation would be more firm. However, I still hold images of how I imagined the relationship to work. I still hold memories of the happier times that were had, of the promises that were made and I can still feel the tie of the bond that was created. To casually discard all of this with little explanation or feelings of remorse or sadness crushes me. It devalues my opinion of my own worth. It makes me question the last four years. It simply rocks my foundation and shatters my belief in love.


Now, a few weeks later with little change in the situation, I find that he has already initiated moves to contact his past loves. Knowing him as I do, this doesn't surprise me but it does pain and sadden me. It only adds to the level of inadequacy that I already feel.
It's an insult to everything that was ever shared between us. To describe it as insensitive is falling far short of the reality. I imagined he would behave in this way. I have visualized him someone else, soon after my departure. I understand that this is how someone of his nature has to behave in order to cope with the denial of his feelings. To move swiftly into another relationship without addressing any of the issues that arose in the previous, simply allows him to continue life without taking responsibility for any of his actions. A life devoid of guilt, compassion ... an easy life for some, for now … until it all catches up. Having a degree of comprehension does not make this any easier. I feel the jealousy, the sadness and the inevitable anger that rises from all of this. I constantly have to remind myself that the break is for the best. That a life without him will be a happier life for me, in the long run, and that the period between now and this new stage will be a difficult one and one that cannot be circumvented.


Today is March 1st. Either today or tomorrow he leaves for a fortnight. When I discovered this at the weekend, I did so without such deep levels of anxiety. I knew about the job and therefore was expecting his departure, What I didn't expect was the manner in which I discovered. He didn’t tell me about it. In fact, I feel quite sure that his intent was to let me know minutes before taking off for the airport. I finally confronted him about his imminent departure, not with aggression, merely asking whether it was true that he was leaving for the job. He smiled and concurred. When I asked when he would have told me, he responded that he "didn't know… eventually… why? What difference does it make? It doesn't change anything." Another perfect example of discounting other people's feelings. I simply do not matter… do not exist in his world… need not be part of his thoughts. The anxiety is beginning to rear its head. That too familiar feeling of not knowing what to think, what to do or where to turn. It's so stupid and weak and useless to think of how I think I'll miss him. It'll be no worse than how's it been for practically the last 2 months but there is a difference in knowing he isn't 'just next door'. My thoughts lead me to images of him feeling liberated from me in Miami, making new acquaintances and perhaps embarking on romantic liaisons. He won't feel as though any moral crime is being committed or that an adulterous act is being performed. He will rationalize and justify anything he so desires to do; I am left alone to deal with the painful ramifications. This last sentence smacks of self-pity, which is not my intention. I write to be true to myself and to release the pain that I feel so crudely.


Right now I want to curl up and go to sleep. I want to close my mind to all of this. I want to stop the thoughts, the questions, and the self-accusations. It's a step backwards to feel so bad again. Not that I thought everything would be fine so soon, but today I gained some ground with making meetings and contacting certain people. I felt somewhat confident and positive about the future, and then my thoughts turn to this situation -- which is too easy to do when one actually lives in the situation -- and then everything goes to pieces… I fall to pieces and the fog sets in. I do believe all will become good again. Not necessarily between J and I, purely in terms of being happy and feeling competent and being a strong participant in life, in my own life. All of this I feel can and will be achieved but equally I know it will be difficult t to shake the effect of these last few years from my system.


He left this morning and as I expected, I am feeling a little out of sorts, to say the least. It has made a significant difference knowing that he is not next door and, weirdly so, it has not made me feel more comfortable. I already miss him. I'm already thinking about what he might be doing now, how the flight was, what the hotel is like. I will miss the usual "I've arrived" call just as I missed taking him to the airport and the flurry of kisses that would normally seal our temporary parting. Everything has changed so much and it's incredibly difficult to adapt to this (prolonged) unfamiliar state of being. The longer it continues the more permanent the damage and the more real this situation becomes. The abnormality of it is that I am still living in this house. As he once said, not too long ago, "you're never happy, you have nothing to be happy about … and you won't be while you're living here"


I feel sick to my stomach remembering these incidents - naturally I try not to dwell on them. However, my mind is ablaze with all manner of thoughts, particularly today, and in order to prevent myself from missing him in a way one misses a loving partner I invariably find myself battling with the reality of the situation.

Hi Clarity - welcome to the forum.

Like Nan, I can relate to so much of what you are saying. There is so much similarity between all of our experiences.

You said: "I realized, with horror, that my partner reflected practically every single characteristic associated with APD and NPD. Does this mean he is a psychopath? ". As I understand it, a psychopath is a subset of people with APD, so that all psychopaths are APD, but not all APD's are psychopaths. Did you come across Dr Hare's checklist in your reading, which is specifically for psychopaths and is different to the criteria I've seen for APD? If not, its on lots of different places on the web; one of them is at the very end of the article at http://cass.eahosting.com/cass/psychopath.htm Although apparently not good practice for us lay people to try to diagnose a P from this test, I gather that the scoring is 2 for every yes answer, 1 for a maybe or not sure, and 0 for a no answer. This gives a score out of 40; not sure what the cut-off for a P is exactly but I think around 30. This should at least give you a pretty fair idea of whether he is or isn't.


You also said: "I had always viewed myself as a confident, strong and independent woman capable of leading 'normal', loving, healthy relationships (as I had done before...) but this current episode has shattered my foundation and has left me a shadow of my former self." I can relate to that so much! I always saw myself as strong, independent and capable before the P - and turned into useless blob of nothing while with him! My first advice to you would be to see your doctor as there's a strong chance you're suffering from clinical depression - as I was - and until you deal with that it is very difficult to get enough motivation to move out and make a life for yourself again.

I still have 'blobbish' times, but counselling and more especially this forum have done wonders, and most of the time I am again pretty much what I used to be, and most of the time life is pretty good. I still get flashbacks and PTSD, but less so as time goes on.

I hope you find the forum as helpful as I did. Yes, life can and will be good again - but I agree with Nan - no contact is the only answer.

All the best

**edited to make link clicable, Di

Hi,
Wow, I thought I was the only one coping with a relationship with a P. Not until 3 days ago did i discover that this site was available. I am in the very beginning stages of trying to get rid of my P of 3 years. He won't let me go and I need help! Please, anyone that can help please do. Thanks

Hi KaSny22, welcome to the forum. I hope you have the time to fill in more details so that members can advise/thoughts you better.

Di

Hi KasNy

I'm glad you found the forum. It sure does make a difference to know that you are not the only one!

When you say your P will not let you go - what tactics is he using to stop you? Violence? Emotional blackmail? Financial control? They never do let go easily - but as Di says, if you have time, give us more info.

You've taken the first huge step, which is to recognize what you are dealing with and realise that you NEED to get him out of your life. The rest will follow on from there.

All the best

Hi KaSny,

Welcome to the forum.

We'll all help you as much as we can.

The best way for you to help yourself is to educate yourself as much as you can about psychopaths. Have you read Robert Hare's book, Without Conscience?

It's daunting to discover that you are in a relationship with a P. However, there are a few things you can do now that you know what he is.

1. Don't tell him that you know he's a P
2. If you can, try to get your money situation under your own control. Squirrel away as much money as you can without being detected. Ready cash is good to have. Keep it in a safe place. The P will go through your wallet or personal things so keep ready cash away from the home. Perhaps at work if you can find or have a safe place to leave it.
3. Open a new bank account in a another bank but in your name only.
4. Tell someone you trust; a family member or a friend
5. If you have already done that but been met with disbelief (as sometimes happen), then stay calm. What's important is that you know.
6. Stay calm. It's very important that you try to stay calm. The calmer you are the better you can handle this very difficult situation.

Having said all that, the best thing to do is simply to get out. Staying in the relationship will not improve you chances of leaving. It's hard to leave, we all know that, and the P will do his best to make you stay. He will NOT listen to reason. He will NOT help you no matter what he says or no matter what he promises.

Can you give us a better idea of what you're up against?
Please remember, we have all been there and we all understand. No matter how 'crazy' the story sounds please remember that you are NOT crazy.

Take care,

Nan

Welcome to the Forum KaSny22,

This forum has been an unbelievable source of help, support and encouragement to a great many of us. We all have our "stories" but there does seem to be a common thread. You have already received some very sound advice from some of the other members. At this time I can only add that it would be wise for you to keep a journal of everything that you are going through, experiencing and dealing with. Not only is it cathartic.... but in rereading your entries in the coming months and years you will remember details that fade in time. It is often these small nuances that help make the full picture come into complete focus.
So for now, try as hard as you can not to buy into the games and confrontations. Instead.... remain calm and question, question, question. P's eventually run out of lies and back themselves into a corner.
Dealing with a P may seem to be the end of the world. Trust me though.... it can get much, much better.
Fill us in on your story and I am sure you will receive some relevant advice and feedback. In return, this will help us all in the processing of our own experiences.

Rick

Hi, I'm new here. I can't believe how extremely difficult this is to write. I don't know what to say, how much to say, how little.

I've never met the P in my life. He lives thousands of miles away. We "met" online 2 years ago, in a support chatroom. I'd rather not identify what type of support, I just wanted to make it clear it wasn't a dating-type chatroom. I found him fascinating, I became obsessed with him. After a year I wrote him a letter professing my love for him (despite the fact that I'm married to a man I love). The P was delighted. Gleeful. *Even though* he didn't feel the same way. That should have been a clue.

Actually, I'd had clues before. He told me of his unspeakably abusive, harsh childhood, and perhaps that explained his inability to feel empathy, and his casual violence. And I wanted to help him. *I* could give him the unconditional love he'd never had. Right? Suurre.

Not long after my admission of love (a few months perhaps), the P raised the stakes. The stories of things he'd done in the past became more gruesome and disturbing. I began to fear for myself, a mutual online friend, and mostly for the P's ex, a woman I've never met and only have the P's word for even exists. If I am to believe the P, since his ex left him several years ago for another man, he has systematically stalked and covertly attacked her (vandalizing car, hacking accounts, etc.).

And yet...even hearing all this...I kept talking to him. I attempted no contact last winter, kept it up for 2 months. Then during a bad period in my life, I called him. I *missed* him.

Now I'm trying again. It's now been just over a week of no contact. I'm reading posts here like crazy. I see *so* much of me here (and so much of him, of course). "Selective amnesia" jumped out at me: sometimes I have to *make* myself remember how *bad* he is. Which is insane. The obsession, the minimization...

I know this isn't a really active site anymore, but I'll be dropping by a lot. Hope to hear from anyone.

Hi km56, welcome to the forum. Unfortunately we get a ton of readers according to the stats but it takes people a long time to come forward.

I am sure that others will come forward to help support you.

Hi Km56

Glad you found the forum.

One thing you said really struck a chord with me:

" *I* could give him the unconditional love he'd never had. Right?"

Oh yes! That's EXACTLY how I got sucked into the whirlpool!

Hope you find lots of answers here.

All the best

Hi KM56,

Welcome to the forum.

I almost threw up on the keyboard when I read that you met the P in a non-dating support forum. That’s where I met the P I knew and your initial description of him sounds so much like him that for one minute there I thought it must be the same man. I am 57 and I gather from your alias that you must be 56, so the age fits too. Be thankful that you never met him. I did! Since I met him in a support forum, I was (obviously) looking for and needed support and he caught onto this and shamelessly used it to his advantage.

I know it’s difficult to write about. You have never met him and yet you have experienced emotional abuse that makes you fearful and frightened, not just for yourself but for other on-line friends. The MO of this man is so close to the MO of the P I knew that it’s like a bad déjà vu.

One of the things that made me fall in love with the P, even though I had never met him, was his high intelligence and uncanny ability to use words. He is a real wordsmith and knows how to use words to get the maximum effect. I too fell in love with a man I had never met. We wrote daily emails to each other and before I met him, he was the kindest, most supportive and most thoughtful man I had ever encountered. Or so I thought!

This man had a violent past. What he has told me and what is actually the truth is very difficult to say. I met him several times. I flew thousands of miles to meet him and I wish I had not. Yet, even without having met him he had done damage that I am still fighting to repair. I have not had any email contact with him since Christmas and I have not seen him for two years. He’s a spook, a ghostly presence in my life and I will never write to him again.

I confess that I am concerned that the man you encountered is the same man that I met. There are some differences but that could be purely semantics from a clever mind.

Please do not write him anymore. Whether he is the same or another man, he is a dangerous acquaintance and he will continue to make you feel that you are Alice on a bad trip in Wonderland where nothing makes sense.

I will write to Dianne and give her a few markers about the P I knew. Dianne has my permission to pass these few tell-tale signs on to you. Dianne can do this without revealing our real names and email addresses. I am not certain if there is anything we can do if it is the same man, but at least you’ll know that you are not the only victim.

Please take care,

Nan

km56!

Welcome to the forum! You will find a lot of support and understanding here.

The internet has become quite a useful tool for P's on many levels. They are able to keep a tremendous amount of anonymity, revealing only what they choose to... or create,
while finding out as much about us, their "victims", as possible. And because they are free of having to impersonate feelings, intonation, facial expressions and body language they are cloaked in a cape of our own expectations and assumptions.

I know only too well about this because I met my P online as well. We chatted and e-mailed for four months. Now I know that all along he was gathering as much information about me as possible..... and he played me like a fiddle! I was totally sucked in. It's taken me a long time to give myself a break. As I have stated over and over again on here.... if we knew their "secret" when we first came across our P's we wouldn't have fallen for their schemes. And trust me, once you train yourself to remain "present" and start looking for what is missing rather than being sidetracked by the picture that is presented.... other borderline personality disorder individuals and P's that you meet will fall away rather quickly. They don't like it when people are onto them!

Rick

Ali, thank you for your welcome. I don't know about you, but did ever feel more like a "mother" than a "lover"? Like, I would have to reparent this person before he could accept love as an adult? And looking back, how ridiculous it was to even think I could take on that responsibility, P or no.

Nan, I don't blame you for your response. When I first found this forum I saw so many similarities to my P I wondered if some of his other victims, particularly his ex-GF, were already here. I hope you don't mind, but I just took a look at some of your old posts, and from the details I read, I really don't think your P and mine are the same person. In the "How to Spot a Psychopath" thread you say you're Danish and that when you visited him you were 5000 miles from home? That would put my P in the wrong geographical area to be your P. Also the 56 in my nick doesn't refer to my age or my date of birth.

My P was highly intelligent too, but all self-educated. He definitely wasn't a wordsmith. He was a self-made man, and I was impressed by all he'd overcome. There was a shy, vulnerableness to him that was a complete lie.

Nan, my heart goes out to you for your experience. I know that I'm lucky things did not go further.
Nan said:
"He’s a spook, a ghostly presence in my life and I will never write to him again."
Yes...that's how I feel.

I have no problem with you writing to Dianne, but I just wanted to reassure you quickly that I don't feel we are dealing with the same man. If we are, yes, I would like to know. Again, thanks for writing.

Rick, absolutely, I was *so* open with him. And later, words and ideas that I'd said would come back at me, parrotted out of his mouth as if they were his original thoughts.

Rick b1 said:
"It's taken me a long time to give myself a break."
Yup. And it's gonna take me awhile too. I still feel *guilty* about "abandoning him (which I know is crazy), and I'm still kicking myself about "how could I be so stupid,", and "where the hell did my own moral code go?", etc...

rick b1 said:
"They don't like it when people are onto them!"
Oh yeah! You should see the email he sent me last winter when I tried to break things off with him the first time. It's chilling.

K

Just to clarify.... I met my P online and we chatted & sent email's back and forth for 4 months. We finally met in person and started spending time together casually for 3 months. At that point I was asked if it I could have an "exclusive" relationship.... and I should have paid attention to that wording. Ha! It was not "mutually exclusive"... just "exclusive." P's are soooooooo tricky! Well, the relationship (or was it merely an experience?) lasted for another 4 months... a total of 11 months from initial contact to "light bulb moment!" And, come to think of it, the recovery took just about the same amount of time before I started feeling like myself again!

Rick

Hi K,

It's true that the different P's discussed sound very alike, almost as if they were the same person.

It's also true that I am Danish and yes, of course you are welcome to read any thread here, including mine. When I met the P on-line I lived in the States, so the 5000 miles away from home puts him in a country very close to DK, where I live now.

You write:

"I have no problem with you writing to Dianne, but I just wanted to reassure you quickly that I don't feel we are dealing with the same man. If we are, yes, I would like to know. "

The fact that you met him in a non-dating support forum really made me sit up and take notice and my first thought were that if it was the same man, I would do what I could to stop him. I know that he has meet, at least, one other woman on-line. I was terribly vulneable, when I met him, and to think that he had found another vulneable victim made me very angry and also very concerned for you since in your post it sounded as though you were still having some contact with him.

You have read some of my other posts and you are the best judge of whether this man is the same as the man I met. You write that the man you met is not a wordsmith. The P I knew IS a writer par exellence and I got so caught up in his clever words that I couldn't see the forest for the trees.

I have in fact left a letter with Dianne describing this man a little more. She will send it to you if you ask her for it.

You mention to Ali that you felt more like a mother than a lover. Yes, the P I knew even tried to call me mother. I was stupefied! He was a big baby with a violent mind.

You write:

"I am still kicking myself about "how could I be so stupid,"..."

Yes! A sad welcome to the club. With hindsight we are all wise.

So long as you do not have contact with him, you will slowly get better. I am sorry if I scared you. The thought that it could be the same man made my fear rise to the surface and all I could think was to do what I could to protect you against further damage from this clever man. It also brought many memories back, and I am certain that my fear was palable in my response to you.

I now have more good days than bad days, but the bad days are BAD.

Take care K,

Nan

Rick wrote:
"Ha! It was not "mutually exclusive"... just "exclusive." P's are soooooooo tricky!"
Oh yes! I watched a show on A&E last night about a man on trial for murdering his wife. He'd given 3 different versions of what happened the night of her death. On cross-examination, DA tried to pin him down to one version. The guy actually said, "For any question there are several different answers." I don't know if that man was a P, but that's pretty much how a P's mind works.

"And, come to think of it, the recovery took just about the same amount of time before I started feeling like myself again!"
It does an awful number on you. I'm glad you got out of it.

Nan wrote:
"also very concerned for you since in your post it sounded as though you were still having some contact with him."
No contact for 10 days now. Yay me! And he hasn't tried to contact me, which is odd (but good). I think the fact that, unlike last time, I didn't actually say goodbye, has made the difference. He's definitely got Narcissistic tendencies, and it was always *me* coming to him in our relationship. Now I've disappeared, and it would be beneath him to seek me out. Which is fine with me. Hope it stays that way. The last time, I explained to him why I had to end things, and he sent me a terrifying email. Silence is better.

I emailed Diane today asking her to forward your email to me, so we can determine if this is the same guy and put our minds at rest. From reading your posts, the only detail that really jumped out at me was that your P sometimes referred to himself in the third person. Mine did too.

And please, don't worry, you didn't scare me. I'm touched that you were concerned for me. This is a very caring community and I feel so lucky to have found it.

K

Hi K,

I got a message from Dianne that she had not received the list I wrote for you. I have now written and sent her another list. If you find anything there that rings your bell, please write me via Dianne and we can exchange more concrete details.

That bit about speaking of himself in the third person really was odd. I have never comes across another person who did that...well, maybe the English Queen does. This man spoke of himself by using the name of a powerful animal.


I am glad to hear that you have had no contact the last ten days. When I finally said goodbye, the P did not write me back. But it took a long time to get to that point. He loved to argue using a very advanced " begging the question" type of logic and when that did not work, he would whine and do the 'poor me' bit, trying, often successfully, to make me feel guilty.

The last time I saw him, he got angry over a trifle and said that he would kill me. He is a violent man.

Have you thought of seeing a therapist, just to get a handle on what's happening in your mind right now? It can be extremely helpful.

As far as the man. Should he write: Ignore his letters.
Stay clear of any contact. It's your best bet to heal your mind and get on with your life.

Take care,

Nan