I'm going through Dr. Hare's list of characteristics. The first thing listed is SUPERFICIAL CHARM. Accent on the superficial, which covers every fake nice trait that these subhuman parasites portray. In so many descriptions in stands out in my mind that the victims describe this amazing charm that the P possessed. Well, to tell you the truth, the P I was married to was as "shallow as a golden" book as a friend of mine described him back in the early days when I first was seeing him. I was going to write "date":, but the P and I never dated. I had a baby and was in college and working when I first knew him. I didn't have much money for a babysitter, so at first I didn't notice how stingy and cheap he was because I was ok with staying in. I was not what one would call "high maintenance" although much later, after I had his children with him and became very ill he did use that term to describe me. Anyway I digress. Back to the subject of this great "charm" that I never saw as real in the P. What I saw was a bad actor. Very bad. Overacting is the way I would best describe him. I was not drawn to him because of this characterisic. Initially I felt kind of sorry for him and over time I became embarrassed by it and repelled. I was always surprised when people would respond and be taken in by it. Especially women. One of his favorite tricks was to buy secretaries of business asscociates little gifts. Liqueurs, candy, popcorn, even toys. They were sooo grateful and would then do favors for him, give him inside information. Wasn't he just the sweetest guy. Gag!!! It was aggressive friendliness, putting way too much focus on targeted person. I think I really grew to despise this in him and in others when I see it. Because its a demanding, overbearing "charm". And people always seem like they feel that they have to respond. I have always been wary of the "wine and dine" kind of guy. Because once again it has a demanding quality and acts for something in return. Like "hey, I did this really nice thing and now you owe me" quality. And what a good listener he is to people who he is working on to enlist their admiration of him. And then there's the "slow gaze" thing where he would look at the woman suggestively and that stupid fake grin. Ok. Enough. That's my take on the charm thing. Mine really wasn't good at it, in my opinion. It was way too transparant and hokey. I sure did see a lot of clueless, needy women respond to it, though. I think the word GLIB is used in this description too. I looked it up in the dictionary. It says: slippery (I agree); spoken in a manner to smooth and easy to be convincing (oh yes, now that's the truth!) And to think that I felt sorry for him because he was so unsophisticated and goofy. It sure works on a lot of people, unfortunately. Helps to feed his grandiosity. That's another characteristic for future discussion and venting.

Cherie

Cherie, I think your p's persona sounds quite effective. Women LOVE goofy charm. The impression of a man who can't match his socks in the morning, and missess the sleeve of his jacket with his arm, puts women at ease, and kicks that maternal instinct right into gear. Just look at the way women love David Letterman. He has plied goofy into an art form. (I am NOT suggesting Letterman is a psychopath.) Women are literally melted by clumsy gestures. My p seduced me with the words, "My girlfriend doesn't like me, anymore, but that's okay because I like you, now, anyway." Even though it was 2 a.m. and this near stranger was sitting on my bed, I was turned into a third grader being told by a boy that he liked her. Goofy is disarming. Women do not feel wary of goofy men. They assume they need taking care of, and that they wouldn't be able to get a girlfriend, on their own, so what luck, she will be glad to be the girlfriend, and she just knows he will grateful and devoted. This is the way we have seen it work in movies. The girl is in the library. The boy nerd is trying to peer at her through the stacks, but clumsily knocks down all the books between them, and is left standing face to face with HER, all idiocy hanging out, and no place to hide. Come ON, Cherie, the girl is charmed SILLY! She feels she has won the lottery! Her very own nerd! Her very own inept Romeo! Unfortunately, in the movies, the guy is always really what he appears to be, a bona fide nerd, an inept Romeo, and the girl always really has won the lottery. It is no wonder we are so easily deceived. We have been condtioned to believe in one of the most effective masks of the male psychopath.

kris, you are right on the money with your intrepretation of this P's particular brand of "charm". I can barely stand to call it that because of my personal disgust towards him. And because I know what a shark he really is But yes, woman think he is just a cute, cuddly teddy bear (said with the high pitched voice used in talking to babies, kittens, and puppies). It does shock me that anyone can even like him. But that is from where I'm standing now. You have put this in perspective beautifully and given me such a reality check. I find his demeanor so unattractive that its hard for me to grasp that he could be found appealing. But then, I know the reality behind that goofy persona. Sheesh! Mr. Nerd Rides Again (how I now imagine him exploiting women)! lol. You made me laugh, kris. Thanks for that....I sure needed it.

Charm.... definition from my old Oxford dictionary:
"n. [L. carmen, song verse, charm], 1. originally. a chanted word, phrase, or verse assumed to have magic power tohelp or hurt; incantation. 2. any object assumed to have such power. as an amulet or talisman; hence, 3. a trinket worn on a bracelet, necklace, warch chain, etc. 4. Any action or gesture assumed to have magical power, 5. the ability to FASCINATE or ALLURE, or PLEASE GREATLY. SYN.see ATTRACT.

charmed life, a life seemingly protected from harm as though by magic: Macbeth V, viii.

charmer, n. 1. a delightful or fascinating person: usually said of a woman. 2. an enchanter: as a snake charmer.

Superficial adj. 1. of or being on the surface. 2. concerned with and understanding only the easily apparent and obvious; not profound; shallow, implying lack of depth of character, intellect, meaning 3. apparant, but not real; external: as a superficial resemblence."

Cherie, If the p is worth his salt, he's got them fighting over the privilege of washing his skanky drawers and sweeping up his toe nail clippings, as we speak.

All,

The goofy charm and the noisome personal habits do seem a recurring feature of the I guess unsuccessful variety, which by the way I find a very useful label of convenience.

Of all the emotions which my dear son has aroused in me, bewilderment is the prevalent one. I've seen that guy go seven weeks at a labouring job and not change or wash his working clothing once. And I sometimes used to pick him up after work on a Saturday, and he would go straight off into town for a night out, dressed like that. Without someone to practically hose him down and physically hold out fresh clothing, he will wear his clothing until it is foul. It's so strange.

Now it is a fact that his Mother, and all her family, had a marked inattention to personal hygiene.This was a middle class, well off, professional family. One of the worst aspects after I got married was that my wife smelled bad, and,not infrequently, extremely bad. It was embarrassing for me then, and it is now as I write this. I feel like I am doing a hatchet job on the beautiful young lady that she was then - but it is a fact, and one which stressed me very very much. According to her, her odour was due to her own lack of an acute sense of smell. It took me two years (because even with a wife a young man doesn't want to bring up the subject) to convince her that the cause was a lack of daily bathing. This was pointed out to her in the course of a big row, which started when she came in from work and almost knocked me over with the pong. It can happen accidentally to any woman I guess- I remember in school when an unfortunate girl sitting next to me had a cloud of gas around her which was of the non ignorable sort. I also remember that not one single member of the class made the slightest hint, and the teacher made a point of going over her work at her desk extremely carefully. But you can't go around like that every day. You just can't. Anyway, I cured the matter as far as the general public's attention was concerned, but the true significance and extended implications of personal hygiene never really lodged in her head. Sad. All her late teenage years, and university years were skewed because of that simple fact.

There is something demeaning to yourself to have to tell an adult to please wash his hands before he sits down to dinner. But what can you do? Your wife has prepared a delicious meal, to which he has been invited, and the first thing everybody has to see is his grubby nail bitten hand reaching into the bread basket. So I gently say, go wash your hands son. A hard resisting look- "I wash my hands in the morning" he says. What do you do? Have a quarrel before you've even started the meal, with a man of (then) twenty two? It is so puzzling.

There is a young man in the USA presently languishing on remand in some well known jail. I have no idea how serious his case truly is, or if it has been blown out of proportion - that is for the court to decide. But apparently his father is a figure of some very high standing in another country, and the newspapers may be expected therefore to take a special interest. The young man's picture was in the newspaper yesterday. It isn't that he is rather like my son in appearance- although he is and by all means- it is the look... that's the look I have seen so many times on my boy's face. Hard and defiant - over nothing. Over washing his hands before dinner.

The thread is on superficial charm, and personal hygiene came in as an accompanying trait. My boy has always exercised a charisma over me- that's a fact. We used to split our sides laughing sometimes. My daughter told me years ago that he "had charisma". Some time later when she was going on about how stupid he was, I asked her. If he's so dumb, where's that charisma you talked of? She said that the dumbness was a part of the charisma- girls wanted to mother him. Well his wife told me that too. And she also said, when they split up, that now that she wouldn't be dressing him any more, he would be lost. And indeed, just over the last few days he does seem to have become mixed up in something rather serious, although I understand from my daughter that he is out from under due to lack of evidence.

I pointed out to my daughter that someone who is going out from a work place under a cloud is very often the target of a set up. She said, no Dad. You can tell it was him by the way he talks about it. Well, I know what she means, and I guess a sister has a special licence to form her own convictions. Just about then her Mum called for her - now barbecuing herself and her food somewhere west of the Shenandoah river- probably it was the song that reminded her to call. Daughter drily tells her that the guy "has been caught stealing- of course". "That's outrageous that you say "of course" shouts Mummy. Daughter could of course have replied that what was outrageous was that when I tried to shake her Mum's complacency a couple of years ago by telling her that I feared that the train would end in jail, her mum had replied coolly "Maybe jail's the best place for him!" Now in the absence of a committed crime, with merely the fear that one might be, that was outrageous.

Sorry to be so long.

Kris,

Your comment above, about sweeping up the toenails, has a certain bitter eloquence about it that bangs the nail exactly on the head. I think it is called the ring of truth. Anyway, it is very funny, and very appropriate.

Regards

kris, somehow this is true. There is still an element that will taken in by the supeficial goofball. But he has escalated in his resentment and hatred (especially toward women) as he has aged. His mask is getting thin and holey and the cruelty shows through more and more as does his true ineptness. His islands of behavior that flatter and attract are getting fewer and farther between. I just see him as an aging psychopath.

Whoever might be fighting over this "prize" to have the honor of dealing with his "skanky skivvies" and rotten toenails has my best wishes.

Cherie

Bonny R, Sorry about the filth and stench that affronted you concerning the two P's you describe!

It sure does look like your son has no trouble attracting the women who fall for his "dumb charisma".

Cherie

BonnyR, Now that you have expanded on the personal hygiene of your ex p and your p
son, I am wondering if this is a p characteristic. Certainly, there can be other causes of
this problem. You see it in depressed people, too. And in neglected children.

My p husband did not neglect his hygiene all the time, but there was one period of months
when he didn't bathe, and other periods when he did not bathe often. During the period
when he didn't bathe, he smelled horribly. This was years ago when I sympathized with
him, all the time, and translated all his negative behvior into terms which idealized him.
He didn't have a job, and I labeled him as depressed because he couldn't take of his family.
Which I now know is absurdity. I wonder if this is actually a sliding into a depraved
condition which mirrors the inner condition.

There were some unhygenic traits that p exhibited consistently through my 30 years with
him. He never brushed his teeth. It took me years to realize that he didn't because it was
so inconceivable to me. He did use mouthwash so it wasn't always obvious. But through
the years, I watched his beautiful teeth turn green. It horrified me, when after mentioning
it, he told me didn't brush his teeth, and never had. Sure enough, once when visiting his
brother, the 2 were btagging about never having cavities, and never brushing their teeth.
Later, I asked p if he had really never brushed his teeth, as a child, and he said he had not,
no one in his family did. That makes it sound like a case of neglect, but I still can't imagine
not doing it as an adult.

The p always, always cultivated a condition of filth to the point of depravity, in the
environment around him. He did it with purpose and dedication, and in my years with
him, I was worn to a nub just even trying to keep up with this one thing (and then add all
the other things). When I moved in with him in 1972, he had lived in his cottage a few
months. It was full of mice and cockroaches. The first time I moved the 2 plywood sofas
which sat about a foot off the floor, I discovered them packed entirely underneath with
plates covered in half-eaten food, and assorted gabage. The back porch was filled with
garbage bags ripped apart by mice...he had never gone to the dump, in the maybe 6
months he had lived there. He started "projects" by the dozens, beans sprouting, wine
fermenting, never tended anything, and as the bacteria grew, rotted the containers turned
black, I was not allowed to touch anything. then I was never permitted to throw out the
containers, so when we moved, weeks of my time would be devoted to just soaking and
scrubbing the muck out of jars.

He did this all our lives, actually collected rotted garbage and hid it from me, in weedy
areas. We always lived out in the country.

I know he had some kind of need for rot and disintegration. And here is the most
disgusting thing of all; he cultivated infections on his body. Mostly his toes. He tore off
his toe nails too short, then of course, infections set in the exposed nail beds. He
constantly picked at these infections, then smelled his fingers. (He also smelled his fingers
for another reason, but then he would blame it on the toes, too.) If he had wound
somewhere else, he picked that, too.

I know I am making this person sound soooo attractive, and how, in god's name, did he
attract women? But his appearance has been, most of the time, so opposite of the person
I am describing that, when you learn these things, you almost cannot believe it yourself.

Cherie, The good thing about having stayed until we "got it" is that we know the true value of "the prize".

Yeah Kris,

My boy also has a small cottage out in the sticks. And what you describe is exactly what I expect to see when I next have the privilege of visiting. I was there two days after he moved in. He lives on out of date food from his convenience store (free you see)- or he did rather- and the bun wrappers and pizza plates were already in evidence. The local cockroaches will be flocking by for house parties.

He was brought up enjoying his daily shower and his fresh clothing. And his mother ain't depressed at all. As a matter of fact she scorns such conditions. I know that because she assured me (and my daughter) that I myself was a manic depressive- after I left of course- I mean, I didn't know what it meant at all and as far as I was concerned she could blather away. Cheeky sow would be my response now that I do know.

Regards

I love yall...Everybody that has something to say, has done so much to really help me come to terms with this embarassing episode in my life.

I want to describe my Psychopath: very handsome, Obsessive about his image, neat to a fault, organized...He wouls ak me for any old phone books I had and then he would spend hours cutting out names of buisnesses with an exacto knife, he made lists upon list of everything, kept binders of his phone book scraps, never slept that much, took a drug called ambitriptolene...he said he could never turn his mind off, lied about stupid stuff, refused to share anything about his past, he would be furious if I asked too many questions, but then he would pet me and say "dont worry sweetheart, I will be here to protect you", He looked like a minister but he didnt know where scripture was in the Bible at all.
He was doing credit card fraud and I found him out, he would leave town for days at a time to do "buisness". Shower me with affection and gifts becaus ehe felt sorry for me. Stalk me, watch me sleep, insist on having sex up to ten times a day. Addicted to porn...the list goes on, but what I am trying to say is that they do sooooooooo many wierd things its hard to remember them all.
If anybody has an answer to the list thing...what thats all about please speak up. When I say lists I mean everything on index cards EVERYTHING