Hello everyone:

Please help me. I've come to believe that my ex-husband is psychopathic. He horribly abused me emotionally and physically. He sadisticly abused me for hours on two specific occasions. We are now divorced with joint custody of my little boy. He agreed to me getting primary custody because I had witnesses of black eyes (co-workers). His family thinks he's a great father and wonderful guy. I did not let them see my black eyes. They now think I'm a liar about the abuse. I decided to settle when he gave me most of the rights to my son because I was afraid he'd somehow fool the judge and he'd end up with more rights. He fools everyone and his abuse was towards me and not our son at that point. If he hadn't left me with a black and blue face on the one occasion that my co-workers saw--there would be no one that would believe that he could be that way.

I recently read about compensated or social psychopaths and that's him precisely. He's very intelligent and holds a prestigious job. He thinks up excuses for his abuses. He has no remorse for what he did to me. He has no empathy. He acts like he cares about people--but I don't think he does. He seems like this great guy. Women, especially, find him very attentive and charming. He listens to them and seems like he caring. He is not big and brawny. He's not what the general public assumes an abuser to look or act like. He was heavily into pornography and I'm sure, still is. I thought of him as a definate narcissist and possible sociopath. I never looked into psychopathy until just recently and it hit the nail on the head...

Recently, I witnessed abusive behavior from him towards my son while my son was in the hospital. I was disgusted. I called him on it and told him that I wanted to follow the divorce papers as far as visitation. He didn't like losing control of when he saw our son and decided to take me to court to try to get joint custody. You'd think this would be an open and shut case--but it's not. He comes up with excuses for everything--"it was a game," "or it was just a joke..." "or she's just over-emotional," etc. People just can't believe that this nice guy is that way and they believe his excuses.

My son, who is 5, recently told me about the mean way he's talked to and punished (never with brusises or scars, though) by my ex-husband and his fiance. My son does not want to go to their house. My attorney told me to take my son to a psychotherapist to give my son "a voice" at the custody hearing since what my son told me would be "hearsay." My son told the psychotherapist about several incidents. The therapist told me that it was definately abusive behavior but that she wanted to call my ex in to her office to talk with him. She said she'd get him comfortable to see if he would "stick his foot in his mouth."

He went into her office last week and she, just today, completely did an about face and told me that she thought maybe it would be best for me and my ex to go into her office to sit down to discuss my son together and come to some "compromises for my son's sake." He now has fooled the psychotherapist. Completely snowed her into believing his act.

I don't know how to combat him and protect my son. He will damage him; I now know that. Now, I'm viewed as the one out to hurt his reputation as a good father by "crying abuse." I don't know what to do. Please help me with some ideas...

Sincerely, Caroline

Hi Caroline

I read your post and some of it reminded me so closely of what happened to me. Alhough with my P his family knew there was something - he only used them when he had to. Does your ex have all the traits of a P - or is it just the abuse?

Whatever the reason I know the hell of having the 'experts' be conned and manipulated by the P. It happened to me and of course the more I tried to prove I was telling the truth the less I was believed. I just had to take my daughter and leave. But he could have pursued residency - luckily I gambled on the fact that he was to taken up with his next victim to want this. But he still fooled the court and he still has rights he could try to exercise.

There is no esay answer - and it is hell waiting while your child is with him. Is he likely to get tired of the access? Will he stop tormenting you if he has someone else in his life? Can you see the psychiatrist on her own ad find out what line he used - you can't respond until you know what he has said. Personally I have no faith in experts or the system - but if you can find someone who knows what you are describing and can help then you might get somewhere.

I wish we could all unite to make the systems in our countries realise what these Ps are like and how much damage they do - time after time.

My prayers are with you. Plese keep in touch with the site as I am sure others may have a more positive story and advice - Writer1 came up with ideas for me if you look back thru the posts.

Good luck

Recovery

Hi Caroline, welcome to the forum. There is nothing sadder than to have children in the middle with Psychopaths. As adults we have a choice to leave, but not the same for children. I am sure others will come around and offer their support and insights to you.

Have you had a chance to read Dr. Hare's book?

Di

Thanks for writing back Recovery and Di:

Recovery: Where do I look to find the advice Writer1 gave you?

My ex does show the signs that Dr. Hare lists but I'm just now discovering this and have not read his book yet...

He seemed so charming at first. He listened, gave compliments and was there all the time. That all ended when I was "hooked."
... He puts himself at the center of the world and acts like he has all this self-esteem and confidence--but it's not real
...He needs constant stimulation and has nervous habits of touching his face and his nose all the time
... He's such a liar that he's even confused things I've said with things he's said and can't keep it straight (I'm hoping that will mess him up on the stand). He tells me things we both know are lies with a straight face like he actually believes himself! (??)
...He's very manipulative--getting everyone to gladly do what he wants before they even realize it
...He showed what I believed to be remorse after the first two abuse incidents. After that, he didn't care and blamed me. He said that "he lost some sort of innocence" in himself after he beat me up. How's that for putting himself first??
...He has lived with several women and friends moving in with them--never the other way around... I had an inheritance from my dad and when he filed for divorce I had about $27 in the bank
...He is definately promiscuous. I know he'll never be faithful to one woman--no way
...He's very impulsive and irresponsible.
He's just about everything on that list to the "nth" degree--those are just some examples.

I ordered the book "The Emptied Soul" which is supposed to be about "compensated" psychopaths. He has a prestigious occupation and it sounds like him. I guess even I don't picture him as a criminal--but beating and brutalizing someone isn't exactly non-criminal behavior.

I'm just sick about this whole thing...

How am I supposed to go up to a judge and say this man is a psychopath? They'll think I've completely lost it.

I don't know if he'll get tired of the access. He's so concerned with how he "looks" to the outside world and to his family that I doubt it. He has a fiance now who's about 10 years younger than him so maybe if they'll have a baby...but I still doubt he'd give up control of me. I don't think the psychotherapist will tell me what he told her because of confidentiality. I told her straight out--"Please don't let him trick you. Please..."--but he did. I didn't want to get desperate on the phone with her when she started doing her turn around, but I really am. It's like you said Recovery--the more you try to explain the abuse, the less you're believed. It's horrible. How can I tell a judge that now a psychotherapist has it wrong? They all think it's me. We probably won't even call her as a witness now. The sad thing is that even though my son went in and told her in his own words some of what happened and how he felt it didn't make a difference. My ex got to her somehow.

Thanks for letting me talk about this here--at least things are starting to make sense when nothing about him made sense before...

Love to everyone, Caroline

Hi Caroline, in order to view old posts, click on a persons name and you can select to view all of their posts. I hope that helps.

Caroline click here

Caroline,

Your story is a fine example of the twisted and sordid web that the psychopath weaves. No one including family members, friends, business associates, neighbors, intimate partners and casual aquaintances have any clue as to exactly what they are truly dealing with. Once the mask of the psychopath is uncovered, however, their tangled story of lies, deception, con games, manipulation and abuse is only too clear to the enlightened. It is a frightening position to be in. I know, too well, that the only people that can truly relate to this experience are those that have been there themselves. There is no horror film nor book that can
truly do justice to this nightmare. It shakes the very foundation that our souls are built on.

If I have learned anything in the last nine months it is that we can't set the situation right. Your P will, most likely, keep on living his life in this way for a very long time to come. As far as the therapist is concerned...it is well documented that P's con them like everyone else. Most therapists refuse to deal with them...knowing that there is little that can be accomplished. As far as the "new woman" is concerned, in the event that you have any exchange with her in the future perhaps you would consider telling her something like this...."there may come a time when things don't make sense and are confusing. If you ever need someone to confide in know that my door is always open." I would leave it at that.
In the meantime, do your very best to ignore your P. If you do encounter him try not to show any emotions. Act bored no matter what buttons he tries to push. And if you do need to react you can always say to him "well, that's interesting...why do you feel that way? How does that make you feel?" You will see him scramble as he tries to avoid the question and change the subject. Eventually he will get bored and move on.

Rick

I have been reading your posts and see how well versed some of you are on this personality disorder. I read the book "Without Conscience". I learned a lot more than I wanted to. It almost made me feel sick to have to see the reality of my son's personality and life in those pages.

I had a message on my machine from my son tonight. I could hear it in his voice. He wants or needs something. It is the only time he calls me. I felt sick inside knowing I can't fool myself any more pretending it is because he cares. He only wants. Does anyone feel fear from just a voice? We are 100 miles away but I know how slick he can be pushing at my buttons. Any responses?
sjs

SJS,

Yes, I think one of the most traumatic experiences that we, as victims, can encounter is contact with the P's in our life
once we are fully aware of the situation. It is numbing, surreal,
unbelievable and...yes... scary.
Like you, I almost became sick when I finally understood the depth of this disorder. As I have written in other postings.... a deep, gutteral moan came out of my body when the realization hit me. I could not stop it. It was more intense than a cry or a scream. .... as if every cell of my being was in mourning. I did not know I was capable of such a sound.
I know the fear you are refering to from just hearing a voice. I also experienced this just by seeing my P's car.
I know it will be difficult for you not to give in to your son's wants. However, I have read enough to realize that once a P understands that "the bank is no longer open for business" he usually moves on to the next target. Just make sure to keep that "closed for business" sign hanging on your front door for years to come. It's a tough thing to do....but necessary nonetheless. That is my advice anyway.

Rick

Hi Caroline,
Welcome to the group. I know it is so over whelming to discover the reality and harm these P's can cause to us and those we love. I am glad you found the group. It has helped me so much to keep reading what others have to say. Some of these people are so knowledgeable and really have studied this disorder. It is amazing how these P's can fool so many for so long. The P in my life is my son. It is so hard to admit that. It hurts a lot. He has two little girls and I hope stays away from them. He has nothing good or authentic to offer. On one hand I am so angry and rageful and on the other really sorry and sad for my son because he is so lacking in things most people can experience. No empathy or concidence is a horrible thing to live with. I learned a lot from Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience. I would recommend it highly. Keep logging on and know your not alone. You have that wonderful son to take care of.
sjs

This is my 3d start but the email keeps vanishing. Caroline it will get better you just need the strength and help to keep going.

You can search on the thread Hi to recovery and find posts by writer1 then click on that name to get all her posts. Let me know if that does not work.

Take care

Recovery

SJS

regarding being overcome by fear on the phone.

Yes...

P and I went no contact, for about 6 months, then he got in contact. We talked, very cordially, for the most part of this first converstation, but I was almost nauseaus with anxiety by the end of it and ended the call (I can natter to my P forever normally).

I was just getting over flu (not a particularly major flu, but flu all the same), I had been working from home with it for a week, but felt ready to attend a customer on-site meeting. After this meeting I was making my way home, and I was on the escalators in Liverpool Street Station in London, and I realised that I felt exactly how I felt when I was with P for the last few months. Its like living under a cloud of dread, misery & the weight of feeling that I was the "baddie" in my own life & the despair that went with that. That was dread that he was going to berate / abuse me in some way, misery because I was so unhappy, it is like a dark cloud had descended over your psche, this feeling that I was the one who was blighting the relationship and blighting my own life (blame transferal made me responsible for his disaproval & aggresion of/towards me) and despair that however hard I tried there was nothing I could do to change any of this.

It was a physiological flashback... like I was being weighed down by a crushing weight.

When this caught up with me, I was so glad that I was not "with" him any more, I felt that I made the right decision.

I went home, feeling dreadful. I went to the doctors the next day, and she diagnosed pleurisy.

I've had a similar but yet foreboding sense twice in the last 2 months before I went no contact with P, during & after converstations with P. Foreboding because having been round the cycle once already, I know how I will respond (leave him) and how he will respond (abandonment rage, then stalking).

At the moment I know he's taken over by resentment, and that it will take him a couple of months at least to calm himself down again. Knowing I have an interlude from this nightmare, I'm as happy as a lamb in spring.

So in answer to your question, yes, talking to them on the phone can trigger PSTD and it does set you back 6 paces.

All I can suggest is that you don't "horibilize" over it too much, since there's nothing you can do about it, and if you go round thinking the worst it will ruin your life.

When he's not hurting people, enjoy it. It doesn't last for long.

Kind regards

K.T.

Hi Recovery

You said in one of your recent posts: "I wish we could all unite to make the systems in our countries realise what these Ps are like and how much damage they do - time after time. "

Well, why not? Lobby groups start with 2 or 3 like-minded people and it IS possible to "change the world" - especially in democratic countries.

It makes me sick to think of any child subjected to the kind of mind games that P's indulge in, not to mention the danger of physical and sexual abuse. I feel VERY strongly about this.

It's probably outside the scope of this forum to set up a lobby group, but if anyone is interested in putting ideas together, I am putting a temporary email address into my profile and we can try to get something started. Let's go for it! It may take a lot of work and a lot of time, but if in the future we can save any child from being placed in the custody of a P, it will be worth it.

Hello,
I've been very busy and only get to read a post here and there. So I haven't been able to follow everything. I happened to read Rick's post and I agree that acting bored does work. I was not strong enough to tell the P. to have "NO CONACT" with me. But I was after many months and lots of posting here to act bored with the P. Eventually he did just quit calling me. The very last time we talked I acted bored and as if I had nothing to say. I guess really I didn't have anything to say - I had told him everything I thought in the past and more than I should have. It really was time for me to be quiet and truly completely let go, well, that is as much as we can let go of this traumatic stuff we went through. Letting go has been a long process, it took me two years to get to the point I am at today, 4 months of no contact, except for saying one word "hi" when unfortunately coming face to face with him in a grocery store. I was able to say "hi" and keep on going.

>> I know, too well, that the only people that can truly relate to this experience are those that have been there themselves. There is no horror film nor book that can
truly do justice to this nightmare. It shakes the very foundation that our souls are built on.<<

So true, Rick. Horror movies just can't get to the level of emotional and pyschological pain that a P. enflicts on us.

betterway

Betterway,

Nice to see you posting again. Fortunately, I've only had to imploy the "bored and not interested" philosophy once. It was rather successful and I got the sense that my P found it confusing. I haven't had any contact with my P in almost nine months. I do hope that, should the situation arise, I will be able to remember to act this way.

Yes, I do feel that no film nor book really does this experience justice. Certainly, Dr. Hare's book and others provide invaluable information, reinforcement and advice.
I did enter a post in the "famous psychopath's" thread concerning a book that I recenlty finished...The Devil in the White City by Eric Larson. I would recommend it highly.
Again, it is the history of the planning, construction and success of the Chicago World's Fair of 1893 juxtaposed with
the story of a well-known psychopath (serial killer actually) operating within the same time period and locale.
If anyone is not interested in the architectural history... the chapters basically jump between the two stories so it is possible to read only the portions concerning the psychopath known as H.H. Holmes. So far, this is the best example of
writing that I have come across that truly lays the foundation for all of the emotions and experiences that we
(as victims) have come across. It really made me re-live a lot of what I went through. The subtle nuances and references were astounding. Either this author is amazingly
adept at research, or he has had some experience in this area himself. I highly recommend it.

Rick

Ali

Hi, I have been thinking of what you said and how it might work - especially after the Norwegian example. But it could work and should work if we all focussed on the condition and not the person - become personal and the Ps have the chance to do what they do best - manipulate and distort etc. But that does not mean the system in all our countries should not have a much great er understanding of what goes on and so can modify the system to take account of this. But how to start, where , with what - it would need a lot of brave voices. I would like to hear any other ideas though - it would be nice to try and make a difference.

Recovery

From experience the first thing to do is to regain your calm. Go see your family doctor if you are so rattled that you need a mild tranquilizer to help you. What's happening to you happens to all the women who are abused. The man is calm and the woman is hysterical. Therapists and professionals who should know better immediately assume the woman is crazy and the P is the sane one who deserves their credibility.

If you do not have the emotional or financial resources to fight him, attempt to compromise with him so that you do not lose primary custody. Since their ego is so big, ego stroking and manipulation will calm them down. Remember he doesn't really want joint custody, he wants to bother you, look big, etc. Let him look big, feed his narcisstic supply. I don't recommend fighting these sob's because they will win. I am virtually sure that if you calm yourself as best you can and feed his ego, he will back off. He doesn't really want the kid.

If by visiting with the kid he cannot rattle you, he is eventually going to lose interest in the child. It happened to me, though it took a while. If he is verbally abusive with the child, perhaps although the child is young explain to him as best you can not to contradict Daddy.

If the child is being physically abused, I know what I would do. I would not allow him to be seen if it means moving out of state. But I cannot advise you to do that because of course it is illegal.

Hi Recovery

Been meaning to ask you - have you thought of putting in a report to the paedophile unit at Scotland Yard re your ex? Even though you may not have enough evidence for them to act on, they will keep your statement on file and should they received a further complaint against him, they will take it more seriously in the light of your statement. So it may not help a lot right now, but may do some good in the future. We did this when my ex moved to the UK; you can arrange to make your statement at a police station outside the UK if necessary.

Hope things are going OK with you.

Hi Ali

Hope all is well with you. Thanks for the advice - but there is a long story attached to P and the police. I went to the police who took me very seriously - they sent out a social worker and a WPC to interview my daughter in 1999. She started to tell them things I thought worrying but she was totally dismissed by them and made to feel guilty for not wanting to see him. Then I was totally slated in front of Rebecca for keeping her from him. I can't even begin to say how I felt - devastated - and shocked - how could they think this from what we had said.

Months later I found out why. My P had a relationship with his 'boss' and her husband was a social worker. He worked with the social worker who came to the house, he was working with her the morning of the visit. This couple wer his witnesses at this wedding in 2000. Now they have been dumped by him - they had served their purpose! I would like to get in touch with them - but am not sure they would tell the truth - it would have serious consequeces for him.

I have since spent 4 years trying to get to the truth of who he manipulated. But the police and the SW are protecting their staff and accepted the lies that were and still are easy to disprove. I have also a complaint in with the Law Society on the lack of help from my solicitor - who also preferred to beleive I was being vindictive rather than believe someone could be so manipulative - and this was an 'expert' in family law.

So the long and the short is that anytime I try a new approach these professionals get together and try to blacken me - this is why I am so anti the system - I was conned and had to admit it - why can't they. They would rather risk a child than their own position. Each took the easy path of beleiving the lies.

I am even more agitiated now as there is a strong lobby to give fathers automatic and much more access to their children - great when it is a normal father - but a licence to abuse shen dealing with a P.

Anyway, I have got that rant off my chest I had better get back to work!!

Have a nice day

REeecovery

What a truly terrible story. It makes me even more determined that we HAVE to do something about fighting the system.

Putting the lobby thing in perspective - there must be P mothers as well as fathers, so father's rights still make sense even in the context of P's. Although one doesn't hear much about female paedophiles - probably unlikely that there are that many - so that needs to be taken into account as well.

Your daughter is lucky that she has a strong mother who has taken extreme measures to protect her from abuse. There must be many children whose mothers are too devastated by the P experience to act as logically and determinedly as you have. I hate to think of the predicament of those children. Imagine that influence on their young and growing minds - never mind the sexual abuse side of it.

Does your daughter still remember any of this, or was she too young? Has it affected her badly?

I do hope that you will win in your fight. Stay strong and stick with it.

All the best

Hi Ali

Thanks for the comments. I don't think my story is that unusual - that is the scary part, combined with the ease in which a whole series of professionals can be fooled into believing the lies - and even helping to build on the false picture of reality to make their opinion unquestionnable ( that's another legal story).

My daughter was lucky - I think the abuse had been in initial stages and although she was affected by everything at the time, she has forgotten a lot of things. I have never discussed this subject with her as I was warned by the police that if I did and she later made a disclosure, it would not be accepted as I could have planted the idea.

But I thank God that she was not put thru the real agony of some abused kids. Just as important I am glad he cannot continue playing his mind games with her (or me).

I agree with your comments about the female P, maybe not a sexual abuser, but as I just said the emotional/physical abuse is just as damaging. I have registered with the fathers 4 families website - they are doing the lobbying - to see if they will take on board the fact that abusers are lurking behind the scenes to use their struggle for their own means.

Sorry it is rambled - but I better get back to work.

Recovery

Is this the same thing as Fathers 4 Justice? Just had a look at their website. I mostly agree with their cause - and if their objective is to have the family laws revised, and the court procedures and qualifications of court officers looked into and improved, then their objectives are pretty much parallel to ours. It strikes me that, with this brewing, now would be a good time to set up our own lobby group to push for revising family laws with respect to P's in general and child abusers in particular. Also that we would do well to try to get Fathers 4 Justice on our side, as well as to co-operate with their cause, in the hopes that a better all-round solution could be achieved.

I agree with them in so far as I believe that the starting point for negotiations of custody agreements should be 50/50 custody, but would like to see stringent checks made by more than one fully qualified person on any allegations of child abuse etc made against either of the parties. And laws that will fully protect the child against such a parent.

Hi Ali

Yes I just realised I hadgot the name wrong, sorry. it comes from rushing too much. I totally agree with what you are saying - it would be great to collabotate with them and have a loby group ourselves.

keep up the ideas.

Recovery