Hi!
First I'm just gonna say what a life turning change it was to me to came accross this help-site. Reading about other people's experiences, who had gone trough the same, just had this puring effect in the middle of my own psychological hell, going trough the experience of dealing with a psychopath as my husband, in my mind at the time. Thank you.
I suffer from PTSD due to those events in my life, and as I've been reading here I've come accross a couple of times a mentioning of PTSD. And I'd be really happy to hear about those experiences. How does PTSD work in situations like this? And another thing I'm curios about is that what kind of 'a mask of sanity and seduction' did these somehow faceless creature's create in your cases, I saw photos of him before me and he had completely different bodytalk and he looked like several other personality's in different photo's. And when i met him he took some 3 days to shape 'the man of my dreams'. And to my parent's he created another one ( the sweet money ).
My own experience with PTSD, was after he was gone I suffered a memory loss of the 3 years, later it shaped into a false memory in which all seemed much more ok. Just after he was gone i couldn't be in any contact in much of the house interior, music and bedsheets especially. Many 'flashbacks' where I would see all that he was in just about anybody and more severe attacks of loosing senses and so on..., the period that the whole issue started to take over my life ( at it's worst when I found this gruop, thanks for having this, really.), and I've been having nightmares every night for some 4 years, which is strange, because they starded somewhere there when I met him. Just nightmares every night, nightmares,...( damn )
I'd really like to hear about your experiences' on these subjects or any other things. J.

I too recall seeing different images in different photo's. In hindsight now there is one photo that I really detest and I remember detesting at the time (even though I didn't realise he was a P then). He actually looks mentally disturbed in the picture, which is bizarre because he is an incredibly handsome man.

I had a recurring dream in the beginning of our relationship in which I gave birth in a stable (like Jesus birth in a barn on a dirt floor etc)except I was all alone and he was nowhere to be seen or found. I remember feeling incredibily let down in the dream as he wasn't there, just like he was never there in 'real' life. My intuition was trying to tell me something but I couldn't see it. Infact my intuition was very clouded for many years when I was with him. It was only alot of work on 'self' that helped me out really in the end and the fact that I was praying to God, the Angels, whoever, whatever the Universe to show me away out of the ridiculous mess I found myself in. It was infact a dream that ultimately lead to my decision to end it with him once and for all (unfortunatly I do not wish to disclose the nature of that dream). I have been having some bizarre dreams since our break up 7 months ago, usually they are about him struggling through life. A friend of mine told me she had nightmares for 10 years after her P left. I would love to do more research into this. A mature friend of mine, an elderly lady once said to me if you were my daughter I would be concerned for you, he will end up killing you, or you will kill yourself. Thank fully I chose ME!!!!!!!!!!

It is strange, but during the time that my daughter was married to the P she had nightmares that he would cheat on her; she would tell him about the dream and he would reassure her that he would never....but he did. Also he was a 'perfect' son-in-law for me, always attentive and sweet, boy was I fooled, that has been the hardest part for me, knowing I was so fooled and that maybe my attitude about him in some way influenced my daughters decision to marry him. I know I need to let that go....she has told me I do not have that kind of power Haha.

My daughter seems to be on the mend or mended, she is young and is in a serious relationship with a normal guy, and I do think that after a P you are cautious, but can tell the difference. The P never disagreed with me about anything, now both of my daughters are dating young men who have opinions of their own , not just feeding me mine.

I do think that it is hard, but you can get past it, with outside help- this forum is one but you also need other people for the times you feel like the crazy one.
I actually was upset that my daughter couldn't hold on to the 'perfect man'. I was smart enough never to tell her that and to find a friend that I could trust and she was able to 'set me straight'.

Sometimes our minds are the hardest part of the whole experience, I am amazed at the resilience that the people who have the courage to write in this forum are able to show. With the kind words of others I know you will all make it through (that's my Mom pep talk).

Please help me
(I should change that now, because you all have

PHM,

"...boy was I fooled, that has been the hardest part for me, knowing I was so fooled..."

I think we have all been in this place...kicking ourselves for not seeing things so clearly in the first place, having been fooled. In Dr. Hare's book he writes that even if you have knowingly encountered a P it is entirely possible to be taken in by one again. He states that both he and his research assistants were "taken in" by certain individuals that they were researching...even though they were diagnosed psychopaths. Remember, these are people that have survived by a slight of hand, so to speak.
Recently I met someone that I found to be very attractive in a magnetic manner. After getting to know this person for a few months (going to the movies, out to dinner, a holiday party, talking at the gym, exchanging e-mail's) I realized that, while I'm not sure if he would be diagnosed as a P, he
certainly displays a borderline personality disorder. Now I can see that everyone, and I mean everyone, is attracted to this man. And I think that is what he does best....attracts.
Once you get to know him the experience is filled with subtle manipulations, half truths, changing stories, ever-changing plans. But still, he manages to throw out certain buzz words that reel you back in. The scary part for me was that I found my head spinning in much the same manner that it did when I was with my P.
It's a difficult situation because, as healthy people, we don't want to spend our lives being suspicious and cynical. We want to trust that there are people out there that find us attractive (in the grander sense of the word) on many levels. It makes us feel good and brings out the best in us. But we can watch out for the subtle signs.... do stories change, does the person express the full range of emotions, what pushes his/her buttons, is the conversation always directed back to him/her in some way, do they have a good sense of humor, can they be self deprecating....?
It's very easy to be taken in.

Rick

You know, I think it would be much harder for a p to fool someone when they were showing romantic interest rather than having a consultation with a psychiatrist/psychologist. That's in a pretty controlled situation and is on the lines of answering quesations and the p is there for a limited time and it is formal.

I take some comfort that a p will reveal themselves to those in the know pretty early on, when they are spinning the charm. I would do some tests anyway to find out how honest they are. I don't think that we need to be distrustful just cautious, and take it slowly.

I have learned to really respect my intuition which was telling me all of the time but I ignored it. One thing I felt very strongly was a fear of getting old with my p (before I knew he was a p) and dependent. That is not a normal thing to think about one's husband but I had that fear.

I have had a good couple of days when I have realised that before he dumped me, I should have not been tolerating the relationship as it was, all his way but I was not seeing how imbalanced it was. This has helped me break free a great deal and also the fact that the thing that I always hoped would happen ie that he would get sorted out and be the person I was hoping for would never happen because it was all an illusion.

Another intesting thing is that on photos I was always struck with the thought that he looked like a psycopath. How creepy is that.

Rick, thank you for your insights. Your really do seem to have spent a lot of time in research.

Brenda, what you said is just like my daughter, she also was the one that was left behind, and her first thought was she felt relieved, then she went through all of the normal emotions of grieving. If you don't mind, were you expecting him to leave? My daughter wasn't, she didn't see it coming. Could be because she was young and very naive ( which I think is part of why he wanted her ).

Brenda, you are so right - looking at the old photos was scary - take a look at the eyes - I wondered why I never saw it myself at the time.




Mark

You guys know the warning signs - little things that start to slot into place - one thing is nothing by itself but slowly the pattern starts to emerge - so here is my quandry

I am working with a guy at work - I don't know him that well but we are working for the same agency and share adjacent offices - we are both working away from home. He is from Illinois and has just got married to a wife from overseas - so they don't know each other very well. She seemed OK the first time I met her but slowly things are starting to seem strange - it's not really my business and I hope that i am wrong because I really don't want him to have to go through all the hurt that I suffered but unfortunately I don't think that it is my business. I am hoping that she is 21 going on 12 but I am starting to see a P personality emerge from the things that he says and the pattern of behaviour that he is having to put up with - of course it is not my business but it is hard to watch it start to happen. I had a very rough 5 years with my P and it is not easy to imagine it happening to someone else who is a real nice guy.

Just wanted to get this off my chest. I know that I can't say anything and anyway, I am not 100% sure - I just hope thatI am wrong

thanks for listening

Mark

Hi Mark, welcome to the forum. It must be hard to watch and see your work partner go through this.

Do you have any specific examples of what she does? Many say that they see the "dead" eyes in photos.

Hi please help me

The announcement that he first made was that he thought we would be better off living apart as we are no good together (that is to say that I became inceasingly wised up to him and had been questioning him more and less accepting of his mentally ill persona he had created) and that he wanted us to stay married, was not matched up with the reality I was experiencing ie that he was done with me and wanted out of the commitment ie he wanted to dump me (and because of the vastly increased lack of respect he was showing me

I forced him to admit it though he did not want to. And he still thinks that I should agree sweetly and go along with this idea that we just are not suited to each other and just live apart, all very amicable.

The extent of the complications with the benefits agency then caused him to suggest that we continue living togther, but separated. Of course this totally contradicts his first announcement but he doesn't see anything wrong here. He does not see why I do not want us to continue to live together.I said that it was impossible for it to be all friendly because first of all, after he announced he wanted to live apart I found out exactly how he had been cheating and lying to me and spending my money out of the joint bank account. He expects me to totally overlook all of that and still be friends with him.

So the announcement itself was out of the blue but if I had known now that he is a p I would have seen the signs that he was finished with me.

I reckon its the best thing that ever happened to me even though the callousness and nastiness has been painful, because it shook me into seeing him as he really is.

I don't know whether the final decision from him came because he has just got into the stock market after scrounging for years or because the boys are both grown up now and he has his narcissus supply or because I began to increasingly see through him.

Whatever reason, it is just so typical isn't it that it was he who did everything wrong yet he who walks out.

Hard to put a finger on it all but

When I first met her she offered me breakfast but we had to go out - she seemed offended that I didn't have time for breakfast.

she can't drive, she insists that her husband teach her even though he has said that he doesn't want to

she isn't working and stuck in a hotel - she hated that so they moved in with a family. She couldn't get on with the femail owner of the house - even though they were having troubles (which the husband told me about - he got on with the owner OK) she told me that it was great there and tried to get me to move in (first lie) when challenged on this lie later, she brushed it off quickly and casually

They had to move out, so the husband rented a town house. She was excited about and was very interested in showing me the 10 foot by 10 foot back yard even though I own a 20 acre place

Later she decided that she didn't like the place and wanted to move out - now they are scheduled to move in with a house sharing group but have to live in the town house for a month. The husband has moved his stuff in and out and back into the town house so far. When they were moving into the town house she said that a man in the street was staring at her. It is a reasoanble neighborhood as far as I can see - it was OK until the first landlady told her to be careful about certain areas and that seems to have started it off.

She gets lonely, so he goes home at lunch, has to go home in the evenings and then go back to work again to make his hours up - this means staying until 10:00pm. He looks exhausted and stressed out

She calls him many times at work every day even though he has to work and is the only breadwinner

We went out for lunch - I wanted American food (she is Indian), the husband wanted American food too. She seemed very sulky about it and ordered Fish and Chips and then said it wasn't cooked and wouldn't eat it. When we were finished, I left but I heard that they then had to go to another restaurant to eat because she was still hungry - having not eaten her fish and chips

Maybe she is just very immature but I am keeping my distance from now on. There are other things but again it is hard to put your finger on them all


Mark

Thank you Brenda for being willing to open up and tell me. Wow, I am so sorry that it happened to you, but you will really be better in the end.

My daughter's husband just packed up and left one day, sneaky way-my husband was home and the P said he was taking out the trash, but he was packing his stuff in garbage bags! My daughter was at work and so was I; at this time they were staying with us to save up money for a house. Anyway, when my husband went to the bathroom the P left. No note, no call, nothing. I came home and his car was gone, I asked my husband where P was and he said 'in his room I guess' I told him the car was gone. Thats how we found out he left, his stuff was gone. I was afraid my daughter may call home so we went to her work to drive her home and tell her what happened, and my husband got her bank account info and went straight home and transfered all of her money to our account, he was thinking straight, as only a Dad can. I took my daughter to her counselor, who had only met the P once. The counselor actually told my daugher that she needed to think about what SHE had done to push the P away! Crazy woman was fooled by him the one and only time she met him. Needless to say I insisted my daughter change counselors. The next one understood that the P was a coward to sneak out like that and explained that there was nothing my daughter could have done. It was a week before my daughter finally called him at work and he told her he had already slept with this other woman. My daughter decided then that it was totally over, she would not beg him to come back. She was pretty smart. She did cry to me a lot, but she knew if he came back he would just do it again.

I had lunch with my daughter today and was telling her about how many of the people had been married a long time and the abuse that happened, she said it had started for her too, telling her she was fat (110 lbs at 5'2") and ugly, (red hair, gray eyes and a smattering of freckles) most people say she is beautiful. He tore her down as a woman, but she has met a young man who is wonderful and thinks she is wonderful, smart and 'hot' so that helps her.

She is happy now and I feel sooo much better since I found this forum. I mean there is a HUGE difference in how I feel, all of you have been amazing in helping me, and I am sure others feel the same way. I thank God I found you all, or I don't know what I would have done.
Bless you all!
please help me ( past tense now)

PHM...

Bravo to both you and your husband for handling the situation with such level, clear thinking. Securing her finances and taking the lead in her changing counselors is admirable. She is lucky to have such loving, caring parents.

Rick

Hi! My mind has excepted the will to remember those 3 years. It's pretty painfull to receive detailed memories of those times, as normally many minds would respond to malicious memories with a defence of anger or ' I don't care' in meaning to defend itself with, kind of an insult ( or such ), my mind just can't find the way to defend from these memories, cause I don't know what kind of creature he is.
Like he wouldn't get insulted or hurt inside my mind with the usual defences, cause he doesn't have feelings..
I really don't enjoy being a mess and I just want my head to get it over with. I just don't get it that what are you really dealing with when you remember every body gesture, every comment and the athmosphere from a memory that now is haunting me. We met while both we were travelling and the first time when he met any members of my family was at the airport, both my granmother's were the to receive us. He knew who were coming and he is a very attractive looking person and while putting the bags in the luggige space of the car he drops his pants knowing that these two ladies, over 70 years, are seeing his ass, ignores my requist to pick them up, like he wouln't notice, then he says to me 'who cares?' keeps them down untill I myself pull them up. And with all the right moves. And now what I didn't get then I put together that, he had a thung about wearing underpants. He couldn't be without underpants, even under boxer -shorts he would wear them. So 12 hour flight would be just the right time to not to wear any pants.Nice planning, he IS a nut. Later he was clearly seducing other one of my granmothers, in order to gain her liking always remembering to make me look like a monster. What an earth should I feel?? Deceived ?? Yes! Angry? I don't know, he wouldn't respond in the image of my mind trying to defend itself. ( Guillotine, I think is the right answer here ). I'm numb and beaten and that's the respond of my mind.
I saw a documentary today, about Jesuse's life, where many experts said that it's a legend about Judas Iskariot, being capable mentally to deceive Jesus, I don't know. Actually if he had this certain personality disorder it's psychologically plausible. I'm not saying that Jesus wouln't have known it or anything to offend religion. As he did love the one's no-one else would. J.

It's hard but just be grateful that he has gone -how many more years would have been wasted in a relationship that was going nowhere.

I look back at the 5 years that I wasted and am glad that it wasn't more.

thedevilseye, I don't want to offend or open up a seperate discusion about Jesus, but know that at the start Jesus did know that Judas would betray him, it was part of the plan.

That said, betrayal still hurts us and it is so hard to understand how we could be so fooled. I think part of it is, as some one said on another thread, that we think people think and feel like us. We are normal, so we think others are also. I have a friend that was married for a long time, 15 or more years, and in one day she found out that her husband had sex with everyone of her friends, during their marriage. I remember trying to help her come to grips with this betrayal, and how she used that word over and over. It is especially hard for her since there is a child, this man and his new wife, the BEST friend, would come to church when the daughter performed, and sit with my friend. Her courage and class amazed me at the time. She has since helped me through the darkness I was left in...

There may be people you know who are in your place now or were at the same place before,like all of us. Find them, talk to them, they understand and care. When your dreams have been destroyed, you feel destroyed. But, whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger, right? Helping someone else will ultimatly help you.

Oh, Judas may not have fooled Jesus, but up until the kiss in the garden when the betrayal played out, the others all thought Judas was one of them. At the last supper none of the others knew who Jesus was talking about when he said one of them would betray him. Meaning- Judas probably was a P This was meant to encourage you, not preach.
PHM

I fell out...? Actually, I meant it a bit different way,
I've got a lot academics reasearces and such in my close family and in my friend circle's and I'm also headed that way. It was just a notion, the Biblical researchers, who were on that tv-documentary, often have bit poor understanding of psychology ( my stepmom, the historical reseacher, good enough to get a job in USA just after graduation, had in my conception a poor understanding of psychology. I come from a smaller country in Western EU. ). I often make theories about this and that, that are agreed by many academics. I just think it's psychologically plausible that Judas Iskariot could have been suffering from this personality disorder, I just don't wan't to hurt anybody's religious beliefs, such as it is, that many do get hurt merely just by scientific Bible study. In the documentary they agreed many times that it could only be a myth, that so, is plausible , as it could have been invented by Romans, ' deceiveived by his own diciple ' , to make him look ridiculed and lessen his ' message value ', I think that is also plausible.
Yesterday a friend of mine discovered that his best friend, who had given him a really bad time showed all the signs of a psychopath. He had quit his friendship with him a year ago, due this. That raised another question in my mind what are really clever psychopaths like ? The person in question is a professor. The thought of that really creeps me out. And if we got the person correct with the other friend of mine. This man had a marriage, that everybody who knew him only a bit, looked like the perfect marriage, 2 highly clever people married happily in harmony, and after some years they divorced and the wife goes to mental institution.
I've been doing lately so much reseach on psychopaths, that last night, another beutiful night suffering PTSD, I thought, Now, why don't I get some healtier hobbies and go tomorrow and by books on BPD and NPD...
Sunshine to you all beautifull people!

What is PTSD?

It is common for people to feel that no matter what they’ve faced or lived with, no matter how extreme, they should be able to carry on. But sometimes people face situations that are so traumatic that they may become unable to cope and function in their daily lives. Some people become so distressed by memories of the trauma – memories that won’t go away – that they begin to live their lives trying to avoid any reminders of what happened to them.

A person who feels this way months after a traumatic experience has passed may be suffering from Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD, a serious and common health condition. For these people, getting beyond the trauma and overcoming PTSD requires the help of a professional.

PTSD may develop following exposure to extreme trauma.

Extreme trauma is a terrifying event or ordeal that a person has experienced, witnessed or learned about, especially one that is life-threatening or causes physical harm. It can be a single event or repeated experience.

The experience causes that person to feel intense fear, horror or a sense of helplessness.

The stress caused by trauma can affect all aspects of a person’s life, including mental, emotional and physical well-being.

Research suggests that prolonged trauma may disrupt and alter brain chemistry. For some people, this may lead to the development of PTSD.

PTSD information site continues...

Posttraumatic Stress Disorder
American Psychiatric Association

Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)—once called shell shock—affects hundreds of thousands of people who have survived earthquakes, airplane crashes, terrorist bombings, inner-city violence, domestic abuse, rape, war, genocide, and other disasters, both natural and human made.

The Facts

Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) has been called shell shock or battle fatigue syndrome. It has often been misunderstood or misdiagnosed, even though the disorder has very specific symptoms.

Ten percent of the population has been affected at some point by clinically diagnosable PTSD. Still more show some symptoms of the disorder. Although it was once thought to be mostly a disorder of war veterans who had been involved in heavy combat, researchers now know that PTSD also affects both female and male civilians, and that it strikes more females than males.

In some cases the symptoms of PTSD disappear with time, whereas in others they persist for many years. PTSD often occurs with—or leads to—other psychiatric illnesses, such as depression.

Everyone who experiences trauma does not require treatment; some recover with the help of family, friends, or clergy. But many do need professional treatment to recover from the psychological damage that can result from experiencing, witnessing, or participating in an overwhelmingly traumatic event.

Symptoms

PTSD usually appears within 3 months of the trauma, but sometimes the disorder appears later. PTSD’s symptoms fall into three categories:

Intrusion
Avoidance
Hyperarousal

In people with PTSD, memories of the trauma reoccur unexpectedly, and episodes called "flashbacks" intrude into their current lives. This happens in sudden, vivid memories that are accompanied by painful emotions that take over the victim’s attention. This reexperience, or "flashback," of the trauma is a recollection. It may be so strong that individuals almost feel like they are actually experiencing the trauma again or seeing it unfold before their eyes and in nightmares.

Avoidance

Avoidance symptoms affect relationships with others: The person often avoids close emotional ties with family, colleagues, and friends. At first, the person feels numb, has diminished emotions, and can complete only routine, mechanical activities. Later, when reexperiencing the event, the individual may alternate between the flood of emotions caused by reexperiencing and the inability to feel or express emotions at all. The person with PTSD avoids situations or activities that are reminders of the original traumatic event because such exposure may cause symptoms to worsen.

The inability of people with PTSD to work out grief and anger over injury or loss during the traumatic event means the trauma can continue to affect their behavior without their being aware of it. Depression is a common product of this inability to resolve painful feelings. Some people also feel guilty because they survived a disaster while others—particularly friends or family—did not.

Hyperarousal

PTSD can cause those who have it to act as if they are constantly threatened by the trauma that caused their illness. They can become suddenly irritable or explosive, even when they are not provoked. They may have trouble concentrating or remembering current information, and, because of their terrifying nightmares, they may develop insomnia. This constant feeling that danger is near causes exaggerated startle reactions.

Finally, many people with PTSD also attempt to rid themselves of their painful re-experiences, loneliness, and panic attacks by abusing alcohol or other drugs as a "selfmedication" that helps them to blunt their pain and forget the trauma temporarily. A person with PTSD may show poor control over his or her impulses and may be at risk for suicide.

American Psychiatry Information continues...