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#3325 - 04/04/06 05:39 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: neverthesame]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Thanks neverthesame, I will be. I know, Ps are slippery characters but also sometimes too stupid for their own good. I don't believe they're full-blown Ps but that they both have STRONG antisocial traits. The male P has antagonized others in our community so I'm just going to leverage that by quietly filling in the blanks as to why I'm being harassed.

Regards,
Sylvie

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#3326 - 04/04/06 06:21 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: sylvie25]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
One more thing about Ps and they're spreading malicious rumors etc. False concerns are their trademark.

Example:

"Oh, TOO bad about John Doe. Did you hear he fell and hurt himself. Guess he must be have the alcohol problem again - wish he would get some help."

or

"Geeze, I feel SO bad about Jane Doe. Her husband's having ANOTHER affair."

Now, it's coming back to bite them on their behinds and I'm having a good chuckle about it.

The pillars of the community are suddenly starting to look like the underbelly of society that they are.

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#3327 - 04/04/06 08:17 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: sylvie25]
neverthesame Offline
member

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 53
sylvie25,

I agree with that....too stupid for their own good! Is your story posted here? I'm guessing your P's are a couple??

Neverthesame

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#3328 - 04/04/06 11:04 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: neverthesame]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
You got it neverthesame, they're a couple and unfortunately related through marriage and biologically too! So it's difficult to distance myself from them completely - there are always family ties REGRETTABLY!

My story is on here - I've posted a lot - stopped for a while then started again. I wish I could say that Ps or antisocial personalities are a rare breed but they're not, which is too bad. Still, I'm in a very good mood today because I'm thinking I might be at the tail end of this bad soap opera.

Sylvie

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#3329 - 04/04/06 12:32 PM Re: General Discussion - [Re: sylvie25]
neverthesame Offline
member

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 53
Couple P situations are terrible. You have two crazy people to watch out for. I will look for your story, I haven't posted mine yet, still a little paranoid. I guess the good thing is, I'm not related to mine. I still see them a lot more than I want.

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#3330 - 04/14/06 03:54 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: sylvie25]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Hello

I have been around for over two years now, but not posting for while but reading often.

I have had a major problem in that my ex did not sound anywhere as bad as others here and I was always in doubt about whether he was a p. In fact, I started to see him again.

He said that he loved me and missed me but was not sure whether he wanted us back together though he was saying that he knew he had to change and was accepting reponsibility for some things early on in the marriage. I left him and our adult sons after he ended the marriage but would not get out of the house using 'mental illness' and inability to find somewhere as an excuse. The situation was complicated because our sons wanted to live with him. This was for a few reasons. First because he was always the permissive parent and would never ever disagree with them or demand that they showed me respect. He did this in order to control them. I have severe chemical sensitivity which means that it is not easy to live with me as fragranced personal hygiene or cleaning prducts have to be banned from my home and my sons friends vetted and asked not to wear them when they call (I was left to do this) And I am sick with ME, which has interfered with my relationship with my sons. He did the rest of the sabotaging.

I just have not been able to get my head sorted out during the last two years though I gained by having no chaos and disrespect. It has still all remained confusing especially when my attempts to improve things with my sons has failed and they have become even more protective of him and estranged from me.I kept trying and did a few courses but always fell back down.

Fortunately I have seen a counsellor during this time and the main thing that she has done is work on my poor self esteem. It helped me to see just how badly he has treated me even though it has always been covered by sickly 'concern' and the way he has always been passive and 'helpless'.

Due to her getting to know my ex during this time, from what I have told her,she has made an astute observation which has unlocked the situation and has enabled me to break free of his hold on me.

Before he broke up the marriage, I was moving out of his control through contacts on the internet and I was building a writing Christian ministry. When he said he wanted to be free of the marriage, he also wanted us to stay together in the same house and was taken aback when I left. This is not what he wanted. But once I left, his sons did not want me back for the reasons I have stated. I cannot blame them to want the arguments to be ended. So he had to regain control by messing my head up again at the same time as having to do what his sons said to keep control. He has worked at furthering his demolishing of their relationship with me by acting 'stressed' after he has spoken to me and making himself to be the victim.

So now I am gaining control of my head at last and know that there is no chance of him changing. But I am back to square one and have to go through missing him again.

I see him as far more dangerous than the usual abuser as he is so clever at his victim image and absolving all responisibility. He has used me this last two years to increase his control of his sons who are his future.

The reason the cousellor saw through him is because he is doing the same thing with one of our sons who has started a university course and is now at the point of having to give it up due to his fathers difficult behaviour, all of course of which he cannot help, due to 'stress'.

I am in quite a stressed state myself knowing that it really is over and there is no change of the dream coming true that he will change. The dream is gone but I am left far wiser now although due to ill health i have not much chance of another relationship, and the relatiosnhip with my sons looks like it is just about finished and I am left alone in life, too sick to get out of bed a lot of the time. But I have been left with my faith in God and am thinking about joining a Christian community where I will be able to offer my wisdom if not my man power.

It has been a long lonely road but it now feels like there is hope. The turning point has been for me to regain self esteem and to know that I do deserve love. Until my self esteem improved, I kept slipping back into blaming myself, or totally blaming him, instead of seeing my own faults, but knowing that they were on a different scale than his and accepting responsibility for mine. Mine were down to an abusive childhood, and the damage has been healed to a great extent through counselling. His are because of his personality and were not caused through a damaging childhood so are unable to be healed.

I have to live with the grief of the loss of my sons and to see them waste their love and concern on their father. Mabe they or one of them rather (one of them looks unable to ever see the truth) will get it in the future, but my attempts to help the process backfires on me for now.

To a certain extent I am still in shock since I started to see the truth and still feel traumatised by it. It is a hard path to tread. I so easily slip back down that road of self pity as I am very sick and alone apart from my counsellor and it feels as though it is too much at times, and there are times that I am suicidal. It helps a great deal to know that others are going through this degree of pain. I have learnt that the pain is necessary and when I come through a bad spell I have moved on further.

God bless you all who are in pain. My thoughts and prayers are with you

Mati


Edited by Mati (04/14/06 09:15 PM)

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#3331 - 04/17/06 07:07 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: Mati]
stunnedhun23 Offline
member

Registered: 06/19/05
Posts: 96
Hey there Mati ~

So good of you to post again... how are you doing today? I am so sorry to hear of more P manipulations in your life and hope you continue to vent your frustrations... it's the only way to work through the pain. I can very much identify with the conflicting emotions you are experiencing... there really aren't words capable of describing the betrayal felt when you realize a P undermined everything you wanted, valued and worked for in your life. And that you cannot change a P, ever.

It must be so hard to watch your sons continue to be manipulated by their father... but just as you have, they too will see the whole ugly truth at some point. Don't write them off, just pray real hard that as you disengage from the P that they are able to see the way things really are. He is only manipulating them as a last ditch effort to get to you... and to further feed his own need to control. Don't give him that Mati!!! Draw a line firm that you just won't let him influence you to lose hope on your sons. With you no longer participating in his self induced drama, he has no reward... it just may stop or alter his behavior.

I can so much identify with being physically and emotionally destroyed by having held on to hope that the P could change. I am and have been quite ill myself for months now, and only very recently obtained no contact with my latest P. Some days it is hard to even get out of bed and face the day... let alone look forward with hope for happiness in the future. But there will be happiness in the future... and by removing the steady energy drain of dealing with your P daily, you will eventually feel an energy reserve accumulating deep inside you. You have made so many positive steps already... learning to stop blaming yourself is a HUGE step out of the darkness.

You didn't ask for, deserve or consciously permit any of this to happen to you. I believe having had an abusive childhood leaves us with an overabundance of empathy, and that people without a conscious are drawn to that like moths to the light. That analogy is very accurate because the P seeks the light which a person rich in empathy, caring and consideration possesses... those are terrific qualities to have. You are still that wonderful caring person Mati... and have much to offer in your heart and soul. He didn't take that from you at all, he only sowed a bunch of crap into your life in a desperate attempt to have and control those beautiful things. If you look deep, you know you are a good person... and deserve so much better than the past has revealed.

Try to remind yourself of that each and every day in even the smallest of ways. It's a big beautiful world out there... and you do bring good things to life. You just need to turn that warm considerate heart unto yourself... embrace all you are and all you will become. This pain, suffering and darkness is only temporary... and God willing as you rid yourself of the burden of it, your body will gain strength too and return to health. I know that is my daily prayer... and if I keep just putting one foot in front of the other every day, that new hope will appear when least expected. You just can't give up... there will be bad days and there will be good days... and maybe now there is sadness and a sense of loss, but have faith that a new path will unfold for you, and it will be much easier than the one you have already endured.

You have survived the real bad part Mati... its totally okay to mourn that, but never lose sight that you have moved from victim to survivor... celebrate that victory and make YOU the focus of your life for probably the very first time ever. You have a blank canvas in front of you... draw a new picture... one where you realize you are a good person and deserve to turn your caring soul unto yourself. Hang in there hun... try to nourish your spirit as best you can and know you are not walking through the pain alone.

Take good care Mati... we are all here for you... Sending you hugs and healing prayers...

Love & hugs,
SFH23




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#3332 - 04/17/06 09:16 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: Mati]
JustAMan Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 186
Mati,

Sorry to hear that you are still struggling so much and in such pain after two years. Being ill certainly does not help. When ill and alone the mind often turns in on itself which can make things worse. Its possible to slip into a viscious downward spiral

In reply to:

But I have been left with my faith in God and am thinking about joining a Christian community where I will be able to offer my wisdom if not my man power.




From what you have said I thuink this would be an excellent idea. It would inevitably refocus your mind outwards onto the community rather than allow it to become self absorbed with your own problems. Simply 'defocussing' and giving yourself 'time out' from your own problems can be a huge energy booster.

How much commitment is required by this community - its not like signing up for the rest of your life, like becoming a nun - A 'bride if Christ'? Or can you leave easilly if you feel you need to? Is it more like going on a long retreat?

In you present state I wouold say its probably not a great idea to sign up to anything that requires total commitment - look at your mental and emotional state now and compare it with how you felt two years ago. SOme big changes, I bet. You're going to see more changes over the next few years, and all for the better. In this state of flux, totally committing your future self to anything permanent is not such a great idea. As it is impossible to say exactly how things will develop for you in future , you should to an extent leave your options open. When you feel 'settled' enough for long term commitment, you'll know it.

In reply to:

He has used me this last two years to increase his control of his sons who are his future.



His sons? They're your sons too, Mati. I think you should start thinking of them as 'my sons' and just leave 'him' out of it.

hope it goes well for you whatever you decide. Dont be a stranger now!

JAM


ps
Pull away, don't look back, and give yourself time. It takes time and a deliberately created 'empty space' to move into to allow yourself to wind down. For somebody who is not used to living as a single it can be a bit frightening.

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#3333 - 04/17/06 10:37 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: Mati]
Deb Offline
member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 85
Hello Mati,

There is not much more I can add to what stunnedhun has already beautifully expressed. Without a doubt, I also believe that any illness you feel now is just a manifestation of all the P sickness you lived with for so long. I also believe that is is vitally important to concentrate on renewing the energy reserve that he drained from you ~~ this will go a long way towards making things right.

Towards that end, let me help close off another energy drain for you. The one regarding your sons.

I had two children with my P as well, a son and a daughter. When my P and I divorced, my children decided to live with me. At the time, my daughter was finishing her senior year in high school her younger brother was a junior. You might think that I don't know of your pain because my kids moved with me, but I can tell you that it only meant they they were even closer to me, thusly more usable as weapons against me. I know pain.

One example: I remember well one Christmas Eve when I came home after work. All the cars were in the driveway but only half of the Christmas lights were lit. I happily trotted onto the porch and into the house, calling "Houston, we have a problem!". No reply. All quiet. I looked all over, they just weren't home. They were spending Christmas Eve with their father ~~I was left with an emotional sucker punch, since nothing had been mentioned to me AT ALL beforehand.

How many times did that sort of thing happen? Lots. No forewarning, ever. There I would be, anticipating an evening with them, and suddenly they are getting ready to leave. Going to Dad's. Going to spend time with the man that I protected them from for 17 years. It was also just great to be sitting in the living room with them as they talked about what to get him for his birthday or Father's Day. My son spent a LOT of energy on gifts for his father, little or none on mine.

Add to that my sense of over-responsibility to 'help' them see what their father really was ~~ to 'help' them see that they were being used. It would have been less painful to just beat my head off a concrete wall, but still I tried. Wasn't I a bad mother if I didn't try?

Meanwhile, in many respects they treated me like their father did. By the time my son left for college, I was relieved to see him go. To love someone that much and be so uncomfortable in their presence ~~ I don't wish that feeling on anyone.

Once my son and I had a confrontation. I said something to him and he angrily said "You say that just like Dad does". I realized then that I would never 'win' in this situation. (Whatever that means) I was basically set up to have to accept any treatment given to me with no way to speak up for myself because it would just be twisted around on me ~~ I would sound like their Dad.

So I cried (ALWAYS privately). I backed off. I cried, I backed off some more. I essentially figured that I had lost the two relationships that were most important in my life.

But in backing off, I did something. I created a space. A space which gave me distance and perspective. Perhaps a quiet space that was previously filled with psychopathic noise and confusion. A space in which I could grow.

Looking at things now (4 years later) I can see so much. OF COURSE I SOUNDED LIKE THEIR DAD. Since a P imitates US, we end up sounding like THEM. There is no way that my son would know that the tone of voice I was using was originally mine and only copied by his father. My own words and voice used against me. Nice trick.

I did indeed protect my kids in many ways from their father. IN FACT, I did such a good job that it has taken a LONG time for them to see him for what he is. My son still can't see (I must have protected him even more), but my daughter sees a lot now.

Mati, think of this. Your sons have no problem being with their dad. They even protect him. Why? Because they look back on a past and can identify that they had love in their lives. It was there. They could FEEL that. The only thing that they DO NOT realize is that it ALL came from you. Only through the magic of smoke and mirrors has their father has made it look like it was from him.

Ok, so now everytime you try to state your case with them you are smacking right into a defensive wall. They have built a wall to defend the love that they felt all these years. The genuine love that came from you.

They are defending you without KNOWING it and you are fighting yourself without knowing it. Another neat trick set up by a P until it is seen for what it really is.

Take that negative and flip it over into a positive into your mind. The easier it is for them to be with him is a CREDIT TO YOU. Congratulate yourself for every moment that they go without seeing him for what he is ~~ because the ONLY reason they can't his horridness is because of the shining bright light that blinds them to that horridness.

THAT LIGHT IS YOU, MATI.

Your P is only using your sons to further drain you of your energy. If you can start giving yourself credit for how your sons feel about their dad, it will go a long way toward renewing your energy reserve. You expended yourself for them already, now it is your turn.

When I started to see that the concrete wall was ME, things began to change for me (and things changed between my kids and I as well). I sincerely hope that it does the same for you~~

Regards,
Deb









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#3334 - 04/17/06 11:50 AM Re: General Discussion - [Re: stunnedhun23]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Hi stunnedhun

Thanks so much for your reply. It really has been a life saver to post on here again. These last few days have been bad. Yes you are so right about the betrayal and so right about him manipulating the boys to further destroy me. I so needed to hear those words you said in not letting him destroy any hope I have in my sons. I have come very close to giving up on them. Thankyou for that. I do need to keep that. I think that one of them, 24 years old, may one day see his father as bad and not mad as he is intelligent, but the other one at 19 looks totally under his spell. His only hope is through his brother helping him. At least they are not alone and they are close.I have managed to put p off from seeing me for a good few weeks now and see that it is vital that I do not allow further contact. I will just use excuse after excuse and don't feel I have to explain anything to him any more. I have been playing into his hands in allowing meetings. It is oh so hard as he wants to 'help' me and fixed a water filter in for me, things that are a bit out of reach for me to pay for. Then he brings a bottle of wine over and we have a chat. It is so hard as I don't see anyone most of the time being housebound. But I know I must be strong as continuing to see him is only more pain and I have had enough pain now and refuse any more. At last I think I have found something inside that says no more. I thought that if he showed that he really had changed and really was sorry,(and was therefore not a p) then I would have him back. Now there is no way I would think of it whatever he says or does as I do not trust him, and his tears and his little boy lost act.

I am so sorry to hear that you are sick too so you will understand what it is like. I hope that you are going to be able to avoid any further contact so that you too can heal. I have found that being sick has made things a lot worse in many ways. I have been encouraged recently though that even for the housebound there is a community out there where we can belong and make a difference. For myself it is the Multiply Chemical Sensitive, and they need me as much as I need them and this has given me a bit of hope.

But you are so right in that we need to put those good qualities that attracted the p's to us, to our own benefit now, and something else I have learnt this week is, that our love and time are very precious and we should not waste them and should only give them where they will create.

Thankyou so much for your encouraging words that brought tears to my eyes. I do not feel alone now.

God bless
Mati

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