Page 2 of 24 < 1 2 3 4 ... 23 24 >
Topic Options
#3225 - 08/30/04 10:00 AM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: Nan]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Hi Mati,

You said (on the revenge thread) in response to my post:

"Just reading through the problems you are having makes me think that it is not worth fighting what you are up against and I think I would leave the area."

I think you have a good point - sometimes these issues become too intractable and one could easily end up spending a whole lifetime being bogged down by them. I would move if I could but that's out of the question right now. I find dealing with two P situations at the same time severely curtails one's options!

You also said:

"For the immediate future, I think I would get the police involved though if it was me and the negative implications for others are the responsibility of the purpetrators not you. Bullying just gets worse if you do nothing IMO."

I completely agree that bullying would likely only get worse without a response and a strong one at that. I posted on a different thread that I watched a documentary about school bullying and when 8-10 yr olds were asked why they picked on certain kids, they said that they knew that those particular kids would not retaliate or snitch on them, that they would just take it. So there's a telling lesson from the mouth of babes.

Agree absolutely that it isn't my responsibility but since this couple is very close to me relationally, it is wrenching that action I may take to protect myself (like involving the police, which I am seriously considering) could cause their kids distress. But I realize that when it comes to Ps there are never any easy choices, in fact they often seem like "devil or deep sea" ones - that's just the way it is.

Thanks for your advice - it's well received.

Sylvie

Top
#3226 - 08/30/04 10:45 AM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sylvie25]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Hi again Mati,

Just wanted to comment on your post (08/24/04 01:08 AM on the Revenge thread) about the situation with your husband and sons. Apologize it's taken me a while.

It seems like children sometimes have a block when it comes to seeing the damage that one parent can do to another and that is exacerbated when the individual is highly manipulative. Also, your sons are apparently still at an age when a more permissive and "generous" parent is favoured.

The example you gave of your husband hiding letters about your daugher's truancy just underscores how emotionally immature and incredible self serving Ps are. It's really maddening stuff and yet I'm glad that your daughter is free of his negative influence and now supportive of you. I think most people soften their views with age and experience and I very much hope your sons eventually come around to that way of thinking.

Take care of yourself,

Sylvie

Top
#3227 - 08/30/04 01:16 PM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sylvie25]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Thanks sylvie

yes you are right that the young will favour whoever is more permissive and at least I have my daughter who knows the truth now. I did not say psychopath to her but after I told her what had been happening (she left home a long time since) she said "He is a psychopath and dangerous." It has made a big difference to me to have someone confirming it like that, you know how you sometimes doubt it in the early days of finding out. If one day the boys will listen to her (they have no contact at present) they will hopefully believe her. p has made sure that they do not have contact.

I just have to cope with the heartbreak of losing them on top of losing the eldest son to suicide three years ago. I now hold p responsible for that. My daughter is also mentally ill with bipolar which is worse because of her childhood with p.

Pleased I was of some help to you.

love
Mati

Top
#3228 - 09/02/04 03:34 AM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sarah]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Dear Sarah,

You write:

“I have had therapy (in the mid 1990`s), and I agree with you, it did help me to realize that I`ve been very effected by my experience of early sexual abuse.”

I am glad, for a good therapist can make a world of difference to how we view ourselves and others. It is very important that we learn not to act or feel like victims, i.e., people who are at the mercy of other people’s whims, wishes and desires.

You write:

“I also think I need to go back into therapy, because I allowed this to man cross my bounderies again.”

Going into therapy again could be just what you need at this time because you are aware that you have allowed this man to cross your boundaries again. The effect this man has on you is very negative and for different reasons you seem unable to resist him. What is very important for you to understand is that without your cooperation, however reluctant, this man (P2) cannot come into your life again.

I personally know that a P can be very persuasive. I also know that a P will stop at almost nothing to get what he wants. However, one thing I have learned is that a P can get nothing, nothing, nothing, unless you give it to him. Once a P becomes aware that there is NOTHING to be had – aware that you are no longer a “sitting duck” waiting patiently for the next round of shot to hit you, he will stop coming around. Believe me!

Oh yes, a P can be very difficult to get rid of. It will take time before he realises that you have reached your absolute limits. He will keep trying. He will keep pushing for what he wants. What he wants is NOT you, but the power associated with you being available to him. It does not matter to him that your availability is on an extremely reluctant basis, so long as you ARE available.

The trick is to not be available in any way, shape or form. You have to say, “NO!” and mean it. If he shows up at you doorstep, be polite, but VERY firm. Do not let him inside. Under no pretext or any circumstance, do not let him in the house. Do not argue with him. Do not engage in any kind of explanation about why he cannot come inside. Just say NO!

You write that your family thinks he is ‘a good catch’. It is very unfortunate and very ill conceived, but commonplace thinking, to believe that a woman must have a man in her life to be worth anything at all. No woman needs a man like P1 or P2. No woman needs or wants to be abused by a man. I believe that it is far, far better to live alone than to accept a man, any man, who is abusive.

You have gone to hell and back and only a very strong woman can do that. Believe in yourself Sarah. Like you, I think that seeing and talking with your therapist again, could be helpful to you right now. I also think that writing down your story, as you have been doing, is an important journey in self-discovery. Not only is it very helpful to you, but it also helps other P victims.

Take care and be strong,

Nan





Top
#3229 - 09/04/04 11:06 AM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: Mati]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Hi Mati

How're you doing?

"I just have to cope with the heartbreak of losing them on top of losing the eldest son to suicide three years ago. I now hold p responsible for that. My daughter is also mentally ill with bipolar which is worse because of her childhood with p."

I'm sorry to hear about your son's passing and also your daughter's illness. That's a lot of distress to have cope with by any measure. You must have a lot of resilience to come through all of that.

As for your younger sons, I think most people eventually see Ps for what they are since the mask starts to slip, especially with those they have a lot of contact with. Hopefully they will see through the deception before long and tire of it.

You take care,
Sylvie

Top
#3230 - 09/04/04 02:45 PM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sylvie25]
Mati Offline
member

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 169
Hi sylvie

Thanks so much for asking after me. I am doing better at the moment since I snapped out of the low I was in where I felt like giving up on my sons but I cannot because they need me even though they do not know it. I am striving to make more contact with them as I feel the more they have with me the quicker they will suss their father out. As long as they see me as the baddy and I react with hurt, it will be a smokescreen for him.

I do not think that I am resiliant, and having been brought up by a schizophrenic mother and sexually abused by a family member I do not have any natural strength to draw upon. But I have a very strong experience of the love of Christ in my life so that is what holds me up.

How are you doing? Have you made any decisions regarding the bullying?

Top
#3231 - 09/04/04 02:57 PM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sylvie25]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Hi Nan,

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to your post (08/24/04 04:38 AM). I've been on the board a few times since but saw a message from a new poster or other one that I thought I should probably respond to first since they seemed upset.

You said:
"I do not think that it need be a negative personaility trait that attacts a P. For example, strong, very capable and nurturing women can be just the thing to attact a needy P. Being strong, capable and nurturing is not a negative characteristic."

I completely agree. A commonly held view seems to be that all women in these relationships must be weak and needy but in fact I've never believed that. I know that's not my personality and I think you had it right when you described the negative effect of being with a P as insidious, that's exactly what I found. That's important for women to realize so that maybe they can watch out for the signs and hopefully get out early. In fact the reason we clashed a lot is because I used to resist his attempts to control me and never really acquiesced. Funnily enough I think that's also why the relationship with him has not bothered me as much as the encounters I've had with other Ps. The difference is I stood up for myself and so accordingly I've not felt victimized to the same extent or had the loss of confidence/helplessness that often comes with that. That makes all the difference. I guess some P situations are just more intractable than others and require police involvement.

The reason I found it difficult to comprehend that I had encountered Ps on three fronts is because at an emotional, gut level, I think I still associate the word "psychopath" with serial killers etc. That's what the media conditions us to think. I guess that's what society at large still thinks which is why support/recourse for people who are victimized by "regular" Ps is relatively sparse.

Yes, compassion has to start with ourselves. I like that.

Regards,
Sylvie

Top
#3232 - 09/05/04 03:26 AM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sylvie25]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hi Sylvie,

Like you, I have been active on the board with new posters. You cannot be everywhere, so you try hard to make the best decision about who to answer first.

You write:

"In fact the reason we clashed a lot is because I used to resist his attempts to control me and never really acquiesced."

This made me smile with recognition. I too, resisted his attempts to control me, and although I had not thought about this as the reason for the clashes, you are so right about the cause. In fact, my adult son had a hard time believing that his capable, strong-willed mother kept company with such a domineering man.

You write:

"Funnily enough I think that's also why the relationship with him has not bothered me as much as the encounters I've had with other Ps. "

If I remember correctly, you got out of the relationship relatively quickly. In one way, you could say that you were "lucky" that his mask slipped at an early stage. You saw behaviour that was anathema to you and you had the foresight to realise that this behaviour was ingrown. The P I knew (I refuse to call him "my P") played his cards like a real pro. I was two years into the relationship before he showed his hand. By that time, I had difficulty believing what I saw and felt, so although I reacted to it, I did not ACT on it. I was certain that the incident must be my fault and I searched my mind for how to correct my behaviour. Obviously, the P supported this point of view.

For many years, I had managed my life on my own and, according to the P, I was too independent and unused to sharing decisions with another. He maintained that I acted selfishly and without regard for his feelings. Perhaps he had a point, so I tried hard to correct my "independent and selfish" decision making. Yeah right!!!

I have not to my knowledge had a real P boss. In such a situation, where the lines are drawn in the sand from the get go, you naturally keep negative opinions to yourself in order to maintain the status quo. You are hired to do a job and it is a totally different situation. You have to toe the line or you'll be fired. You must have been tearing out your hair on a daily basis. A psychopathic boss is in a real power position - he can do just what he wants and no one can (or will) gainsay him. I have read several accounts of the damage a psychopathic boss is capable of doing and this damage is not in the mickey mouse department. A P boss does not care if he takes the whole company down with him - he only cares about what he wants. As the boss, he plays one against the other. Boards of Directors as well as employees are fair game. It must have been terrible for you.

I have had two brief encounters with two different family members, whom I suspect are either N or Ps. Luckily, the second one was after I found out about the P I knew. I recognised the underhanded manipulation for what is was and immediately stopped ALL communication. As well, I wrote long and very detailed letters to the family members most closely associated with this person, outlining all my reasons. I have NO regrets! Had I not known about N's and P's, I am sure that I would have been drawn into a long and damaging family feud.

You write:

"The reason I found it difficult to comprehend that I had encountered Ps on three fronts is because at an emotional, gut level, I think I still associate the word "psychopath" with serial killers etc."

YES! That's exactly what I thought. I had visions of a chainsaw massacre type of person, and truthfully, I did not really believe that such people actually existed. I knew NOTHING about the socically adept psychopath. A person like Ted Bundy was to my mind an anomaly rarely encountered in daily life.

You write:

"That's what the media conditions us to think."

It's good copy. It sells newspapers and magazines.

You write:

"I guess that's what society at large still thinks which is why support/recourse for people who are victimized by "regular" Ps is relatively sparse. "

Yes, and also why it is so difficult to get friends and family to believe you when you try to explain why you have ditched the 'lovely man you were seeing', been fired by your 'wonderfully considerate' boss, or why you have PDQ decided to move to another state.

If I could, I would bring formal charges against the P, but that's a very dangerous game and one I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I would lose. P's are very charming and very clever and they are unbelievably vindictive. I am not about to lose what I have so painfully re-gained. The only thing I can do is to observe the NO CONTACT rule. It works for me!

The P has tried a few times, " I would like to visit you for few days when I am in town." Without blanching, I lie through my teeth. " I am so sorry, I have stay-over company." or "I have just landed a big account, I am too busy," Or, I will be out of town." Any excuse to stop him coming round. Luckily, he lives in another country, so chances that he would come round unannounced are almost equal to nil. I have often thought about what I would do if he did. The only thing I know, is that I would NOT let him in the door. It doesn't bear thinking about.

Take care, Sylvie,

Nan

PS: I have edited for spelling errors only. Contents is the same.









Edited by Nan (09/05/04 04:54 AM)

Top
#3233 - 09/05/04 03:37 PM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: Nan]
sylvie25 Offline
member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 325
Hi Nan,

Thanks. About the P I dated (I too prefer not to call him "my P"), we actually went out for several years. I tried to break things off after 6 months, but wasn't ready for the hysterics since I'd never encountered that kind of thing before, so we continued going out and it started to have the insidious, wearing effect that you described. I just feel incredibly lucky because I didn't marry him despite the pressures to do just that. That would have been a disaster. It didn't hurt that I met a WELL ADJUSTED, PROGRESSIVE guy (OK he was also very tall and hazel eyed) through work about a year after that. We couldn't date because of business conflicts and I think I was still very skittish. I may have let a gem slip away but at least it got my head to where I realized there are some keepers out there.

I'm with you when you say that a woman doesn't need a man to be worth something. Too bad so many women buy into that and sell themselves short in the process. Besides the worthwhile guys, in my view, like independent women.

About the P boss, it actually wasn't terrible when I worked with him. We worked together fairly well (I don't know if I want to admit to that!) perhaps because he tended to be off doing his own thing much of the time. It's towards the end when he started making requests of me that I couldn't comply with (legally/ ethically) that things got out of hand. It's since then that it's been terrible because my career has been run off the rails. I think he (and his corrupt cronies) may have overplayed their hands since there's practically zero tolerance for that of thing anymore with the slew of corporate scandals. The BOD were equally corrupt and beholden - they're interpretation of corporate governance was "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" and "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." Just trained seals.

I've had only very intermittent contact with the P relatives and that's just because we're sometimes at the same family events (I'm supposed to be at one right now, but declined), but they're systematic undermining of my reputation in our community and elsewhere and other harassing conduct has taken a toll for sure. I'd prefer to be able to do that, just cut ties, but that hasn't worked.

My back's against the wall in both these situations (partly because they're simultaneous) and that's why I feel that it's time to get the authorities involved and let them deal with it.

I barked at one P relative a couple of months ago when she was giving me attitude at a time when a mutual relative was very sick (little narcissistic?!). To my amazement, she switched to incredible politeness, even compliance, in a nanosecond. I think that clued me into the fact that she has not encountered that side of me enough and therefore a message needs to be sent that I'm not weak and passive or else I can expect the bullying to continue indefinitely. I can understand in your case if you've moved on, that you wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize that, it's not worth it.

It's a drag but nothing else has worked. I read a couple of excellent articles on psychological harassment recently and I've come to the conclusion that it would be to my detriment to allow it to continue unresponded to. You're absolutely right that they're vindictive, unfortunately that's a risk I'm going to have to take. Bum deal!

I'm curious, how did your relatives react to you sending them letters?

Bye for now,
Sylvie




Top
#3234 - 09/06/04 02:18 AM Re: General Discussion - Part Three [Re: sylvie25]
Nan Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 501
Hiya Sylvie,

I see that I got your story somewhat wrong. My apologies.

You write:

"I just feel incredibly lucky because I didn't marry him despite the pressures to do just that. "

I would not say that it was mere luck. You "knew" something and listened to your intuition. You made an intelligent decision. How old were you then?

You write:

"It didn't hurt that I met a WELL ADJUSTED, PROGRESSIVE guy (OK he was also very tall and hazel eyed)...."

(Chuckle)

"...We couldn't date because of business conflicts and I think I was still very skittish."

I am still skittish. I think many women continue to be skittish for a long time after the P. It's been more than two years since I have seen the P, but only a year since I broke all email contact and as recently as early January that I discovered that he is a P. I am not ready for even a tall and hazel eyed man <s>. I know that I am still fearful or at the least distrusting, the latter not the best starting point for a relationship. As well, I am not a spring chicken and a relationship is not alpha and omega to me.

You write:

"About the P boss, it actually wasn't terrible when I worked with him. We worked together fairly well (I don't know if I want to admit to that!)...."

Why not! Work is work, not a relationship. The work I do is so interesting that I lose all sense of time and place when I get into it. I am totally concentrated. I really love what I do. I have read that with a P boss, the work standard "can" be of very high quality because he/she demands the best. So if I did not have to work closely with such a person, I think I would forget all about the boss and simply concentrate on delivering the goods.

"It's towards the end when he started making requests of me that I couldn't comply with (legally/ ethically) that things got out of hand."

Ah....yes....that's when it's time to get off the train. I once questioned the P's ethics. He became irate and demanded that I retract my statement. I refused and the ensuring argument really scared me. Such venom! If I relate that incident to a P boss, I can easily see how it could cost me my job and perhaps my reputation.

You write:

"My back's against the wall in both these situations (partly because they're simultaneous) and that's why I feel that it's time to get the authorities involved and let them deal with it."

Are you refering to both the work and the family situation or just the latter?

You write that your P relative backed off when you 'barked' at her. As far as I am aware, it's very unlikely that a P would back off when challenged. Your relative may not be a P. She may be a Bully and they generally back off when challenged. Bullies bully because they perceive (rightly) that the other will take it. Bullies never bully people, who they perceive as strong and willing to stand up for themselves. I your relative is a Bully and NOT a P, you have hit on the right method and a show of strength will scare her. A show of strength will NOT scare a P, who will NEVER back off. Not even in the face of legal trouble.

You write that you are 'starting to feel out of control' and that you must take a stand. Please be careful, Sylvie. The fact that you know that you are starting to feel out of control should indicate to you that you may not be thinking totally straight. You have had enough and now you want it to stop come hell or high water. I can so well understand those feelings. However, it is imperative that you think clearly and that you are aware of the possible repercussions.

You have managed to turn the tide workwise, but please do not, as the saying goes, cut off your nose to spite your face. Be very careful.

You write:

"I'm curious, how did your relatives react to you sending them letters? "

All three reacted differently but positively. One wrote back saying that I had put my finger on something that she had long suspected but been unable to articulate. She later found the strength to break off with this relative as well.

The relative reacted by writing us both different letters that merely reinforced my belief that he saw himself as a victim of the cruellest circumstances. He was very clear that we had victimized him further. A P likes playing the victim, but he doesn't play dead, which is what this relative did.

Have you initiated a response to your meddling and accusatory relatives or are you just considering a response?

I cannot reiterate it enough: Be careful.

Nan



Top
Page 2 of 24 < 1 2 3 4 ... 23 24 >

Moderator:  Dianne E.