Hi Nan,

I am aware that I have your sympathy and know for sure that you have responded quickly (publicly and privately)- I haven't questioned any of that and in fact I believe I have expressed appreciation for it. Really I started posting here to gain some knowledge and encountering people who can relate helps.

I'm fairly perceptive too so it became apparent that you were suggesting that I had some reason(s) other than the technical e-mail issue to not respond to you. However, your underlying reasons for saying that seemed cryptic and the whole P thing came out of left field for me. Fact is I couldn't be bothered to come up with some story like that - I would just say I had reservations for whatever reason applied. To the extent my responses to anyone are not prompt, I think it should be obvious to anyone in a P situation why that might be. Also, I believe I've said that while I find it helpful to post here in some ways, there are other times when it can be draining. That's just the nature of these topics.

I couldn't agree more that personal truth is relative.

Regards,
Sylvie

Nan
(member)
10/14/04 02:33 AM

Hi Outsider,

You write:

"I miss him so much as a brother--it makes me sick that he is dead."

In your first post, you said something very wise about his life. You said: "It was his choice."

He fought a valiant battle to escape from drugs and alcohol. He managed, against almost impossible odds, to make a good life for himself. It seems that he would have permanently succeeded if not for your sister. He was, in many, many ways a strong man made of the right stuff and he was a survivor. In spite of his horrific behaviour when drunk and on drugs, he had within him the power to BE, in the best sense of the word. And he used this power to become someone capable of loving himself and therefore being loved by others.

You write:

"I want to walk away from it all and forget it, be strong, forget it. Be normal, trust people, get a life. "

I think this "brother" of yours is loving you from somewhere. I think he wants you to be strong, he wants you to be normal and to be safe and content. He showed you that it is possible - but that you have to want it. You have to want it more than anything else. You have to bring all your personal power to bear and you have to believe in yourself. He did! Didn't he?

"But something essential and vital gets cracked at the axis--the very base of your being and it appears it just cannot be fixed."

He is your rare example that it IS possible. That it CAN be fixed. He did not allow the odds to scare him into submission. He did not give up. Every time he fell, he picked himself up and started anew. Yesterday is gone - there is only today, the here and NOW.

It seems to me, that one way to give his life meaning, to honour his being and his will to become, could be for you to succeed where ultimately he failed.

Perhaps you could think of him as your guide towards the light. Perhaps you could think of him holding his hand over you, protecting you against the darkness within yourself. An essential part of him was filled with light and he used the power of this light to love himself. In learning to love himself, he knew that he could love others.

You are strong. Use your strength and to help you, allow the best of him to guide and love you.

It is your choice!

Nan

outsider
(member)
10/14/04 06:08 AM

Hi again Nan, You are a very insightful person... tell me, are you a professional who helps run this board like Dianne?
Funny you should say these things b/c I have been thinking them.
Only one thing bothers me--ultimately what took him out was low self esteem. That last conversation I had had w/ him on my cell phone before he gave up and picked up, I did not mention that in addition to saying he loved her and couldn't live without her, he said he "was a worthless piece of sh#t"

After 4 years of living by the word of God and putting up with her daily verbal abuse and working like a dog on the roof and getting umteen promotions and being groomed for lead sales guy for new contracts and spending all his spare time doing for others, in the final analysis-- he felt worthless.

But what you say about him is so true. And he most definately did defy the odds and he had a light in his big bright blue eyes and a huge smile you wouldn't believe. It's what everyone refers to in his online guestbook entrys (obit in the newspaper) and he was my spiritual guide for the last few years and I always listened closely so very very closely but did not act on his advice. We never spoke of nonsense: just the meaning of life. He was very big on gratitude. I talk to him. I look to him for strength. Last night I went into denial and imagined he put his toe tag on someone else and escaped from the hospital. He did not look anything like himself at the viewing. I laughed and cried at the same time b/c if anyone could pull it off, he could. After all those years in penetentaries when he was younger (and yes, he was front page news as an escape some 30 years ago--it embarrassed the hell out of him to mention it--they had his picture on the front page) any way--- if anyone could pull it off, it was him. He was not academically smart--never bothered. But he was a clever man more street smart than anyone and then when he found recovery, gifted by God, a natural teacher and shared it.
I need to find my way financially. My daughter and I have been trapped in poverty and I can't find my way out no matter how hard I try.

Anyway,
Wanted to mention about your previous post too, Dan would fly into "spells" venemous ranting and raving spells about his hatred of police.
This was years before he had any run-ins with the law.

thanks nan

Nan
(member)
10/14/04 06:35 AM

Hi Outsider,

I will get back to your post later in the day.

I just want to mention that I am NOT a psychologist or any kind of therapist.

I am a professional but it is in a totally different sphere.

Take care,

Nan

Nan
(member)
10/14/04 10:29 AM

Hi Outsider,

You write:

"I need to find my way financially. My daughter and I have been trapped in poverty and I can't find my way out no matter how hard I try. "

Poverty is a horrible state where you can appear to be running in place. Concommittant with the poverty there is often a sense that life is not ever going to change and that state of mind is in itself enough to create depression.

You write that you are depressed. Of course you are! You have gone through a lot in the last year or so, and there is not person anywhere who would not be adversely affected if it had happened to them.

If you can, try to be patient with yourself. Healing takes time! You write (in another post) that you have had therapy and that it has helped you. Will the State perhaps support you in getting scaling fee or maybe even free therapy? Have you checked out the possibilities?

You have also written that you are on Disability. I realise that this income is not going to be a 'walk in the park', but have you tried to find other Governmental ways that the State can up your income to a supportable level? Right now, it seems that it would be difficult for you to take on a job, simply because you are so depressed.

Once, a long time ago, I too fell into a crack in the floor and it took a lot of time and effort to get back up. While I cannot say that I know exactly what you are going through, I can say that I have been poor and depressed at the same time, so I have some idea of what you are going through.

I also know that it can get better with time. Today, I am fine and my life is good. I had to work at it, and I had to accept help from other people and more importantly, I had to be willing to use the help I was given. In the beginning, I could not stop 'singing' the old poor-me song about, "Yes, but.......????"

When I stopped 'singing' that stupid song, I started to see what you already know - That I had a choice.

Sometimes the choice was between a rock and a hard place, but slowly, as I learned to accept a measure of responsibility for what happened, the choices available to me became real choices.

Today, I can choose among several choices and only VERY rarely do I find myself between a rock and a hard place. But when I do, I remember that I have been there before and that the pendulum always swings back. I am alive!

You are too<smile>,

Nan

outsider
(member)
10/15/04 06:07 AM

Hey there Nan...again,
I am working on that Poor me. Been reminding myself of that one when I need to. It's easy to go there. It's easy to get on a rant and blame too. This has become one son-of-a-gun competitive society where the sharks take all.
I wish I were dumber and could be happy at a Union job doing some stupid task over and over again listening to my coworkers talking about spongebob and other idiot stuff.
I lost my way.

I had the brains to be an attorney or a writer or any number of things and it got all screwed up. My resume looks like Gulliver's Travel's--even I have no clue where I worked or when anymore. I have strung together a couple of part time jobs under the table so we can survive but we need to be able to LIVE.

Being a single parent w/o family certainly makes it tough. My best friend works in retail as a manager and makes $52 a year and even she is exhausted all the time with the crazy hours and has no kids. This is something I could walk into and get trained into . I have a new prayer I say about the dilemna. Because I have a BA in English Lit and b/c I was one of the last to successfully declare bankruptsy on student loans, I qualify for about nil on aid. Tried that route with ever fiber of my being for about 8 months everyday a few years back. Tried pushing papers in an office-- guess what? I managed to find a P boss!!!! He was cold and mean and incapable of any feeling or emotion and scarey. The FBI should hire us to root out these characters. So I pray and pray and work these p t jobs and think about who am I really. What could I do that would pay and not make me miserable and crazy with the stress of it and the redundancy of it.
I need that prayer answered.

Thanks Nan.

You know, the depression does make a job you don't like an impossible burden to take. Feel like a bird in a cage. I am quite the misfit. Would do well as a Bohemian on an island running a cafe. But I waant that challenging job. It is where the self esteem will come from.

Outsider

Nan
(member)
10/15/04 07:51 AM

Hi Outsider,

I surely know what you mean when you say that you wish yourself capable og being happy with a factory assembly job. Still, a Union job would be reasonably well paid.

I have worked at some truly crummy jobs to get myself through school. I was close to 40 when I started going to University for a BA and an MA. No, I did not go on a scholarship. I was divorced and had financial obligations so without working the idea of University was OUT! I had always wanted an academic education and close to 40, I decided that it was now or never. It was hard, but am I glad that I did it. Even afterwards I took some jobs that I would never put on my resume.

Only a very few people are able to work at something they truly enjoy. As far as I know there is no such thing as a stress less job. Like almost everyone, you will simply have to compromise somewhere. But it is possible to find or create a job that is close to something that suits your style and personality. Or work a crummy job part time, while finding ways to create a better job situation.

"What could I do that would pay and not make me miserable and crazy with the stress of it and the redundancy of it."

What are you good at?
What special talents do you have?
Try to compose a list of things that you know you can do or that you enjoy doing.

For example: Do you like animals? In many major cities walking dogs can be very profitable. You are out in the fresh air, you get exercise, and if you like dogs and can walk more than one at a time, you can make a pretty penny.

Can you teach others? Homework help: You have a BA in English Lit. You could teach high school students how to approach a story. How to write an outline, a short essay or a major paper.

Do you like doing research? You could help undergrad student compile research material. Or if you are really good at it, compile research material for grad students, writers or even major companies.

You can write! How about writing articles for women's magazines? Come up with a good topic and suggest writing an article about it. At first, you may have to do a few freebies, but if you are good at it, they WILL eventually pay.

Try to make a list and see where it takes you.

Nan

outsider
(member)
10/15/04 08:02 AM

kris,
I read this post with horror the other day. Then today I was reading the archives and laughing my a$$ off about an entry from "kris" about the garbage collector husband!? Is this one in the same? forgive me. I never heard of such INCREDIBLY INSANE BEHAVIOR whereas the violence I Could relate to. I know you did not intend to be funny in the archive, if indeed it was you, but you have a flair for the pen you know. I am sorry I can't be more helpful at this time--I am pretty raw.
Wish you well thanks for your input on my other post

Outsider

outsider
(member)
10/15/04 08:25 AM

hi nan,
Blabber mouth is back-- see how pathetically lonely I am these days.
Nan--I adore almost worship animals. Always have, the right dog at the right moment can chase every singel dark cloud away and for one who was indoctrinated into the Catholic Church-which is more like an ethnicity, I really have always found God mostly in nature. The engineering of one simple insect is so much more valuable and magnificent than the Taj Mahal... it is life!!!

Anyway, this city, though close to NYC and Phil--not close enough, is not lucrative enough for dog walking. Have done pet sitting but these days everyone and their grandmother is doing it.

I LOVE RESEARCH. A natural born sleuth. Wouldn'd know where to begin AND have also thought about writing articles---NAN, I am so stuck---I have no clue how to start or even pick a subject matter. I am frozen in place, and all my life my English professors asked me to follow through with writing--saying of course I had a long way to go but all saying I had talent.

I take care of a boy--minimally and it pays well for the # of hours I put in and is convenient for my daughter and myself. The saving grace to this job is I am so damned bored that it is a perfect set up to read: otherwise I never can sit still and read. But with this job, in between my fake conversation with him, "hey buddy, how you doing over there, want anything" he plays his nintendo and I read my book. He's a good enough little guy just not one that particulary took my breath away and made me want to learn catch or something.

The other job is hostessing at an Italian restaurant weekends which I love but can only do on tranquilizers. I love everything Italian, fall asleep to the music every single night--was born in Southern Germany but fantazise that Josh Groban (since he's 20's and I am 40's is my long lost brother visiting my restaurant---oh I always wished I had a brother). Anyway, the beauty of that culture---I am extremely visual--and as hostess no one bothers me and I am a big picture thinker so the job works well for me b/c I have to keep the front of the house organized. I had problems with it briefly being out of my mind w/ grief but am getting it back together now and am good at it... on the tranquillizers.

CAN I CHANGE MY NAME TO SELF CENTERED BLABBER MOUTH ;{
I am trying hard presently not to lecture my father again (briefly and humbly about a nix on a jury trial for my sis

Thanks Nan
oh Nan,
I have had more crappy jobs than you could shake a stick at--honestly. My friend said my picture should be next to "underachiever" in the dictionary.
If life were an 8 course dinner recipe, mine would be that metal square thing they fill with slop for the hogs.
If there was a way to mess it up, I did. But sheeze--what I crew that I "came up with"

Outsider

ktbilly
(member)
10/15/04 09:16 AM

Outsider,

has any doctor ever tried you on any of the stimulant medications? Its just the more you say about your self, your life, those around you and the amount that you are writing (which is just cool btw), makes me think you've got a degree of hyperactivity running through you, and this responds better to stimulants to suppressants.
Just a thought.

I am also very visual and I have a nice picture of you in my mind out front of house.

KT

Edited by ktbilly (10/15/04 10:18 AM)

sylvie25
(member)
10/15/04 04:26 PM

Outsider,
If some kind of writing job interests you, have you heard of elance.com? You can post a profile either under a courtesy (no-fee) listing or have an enhanced listing for $5 a month. There are other pricier options too. They have all sorts of jobs including editing, proofreading, speechwriting etc. - there's quite a range. It's basically a services marketplace to connect potential clients (that want to outsource projects) and service-providers. Great use of the internet. There's probably others like it too.

Take care,
Sylvie

Hi Outsider,

In fact, you are NOT a blabbermouth. However, I think you are right when you say that you are lonely. And I realise that you feel stuck.

I agree with whatever professor who has told you that you should write. You DO know how to write and you have a lovely self-irony that, while a product of pain, could also be a saving grace because it allows to see yourself from afar. You give me the feeling that you are able to see the ludicrous aspects of life, and I think it is fair to say that have had more than your share.

About talent: In my FIRST year in Uni. one of my professors (about my age) said that I talent. He offered to help me with my writing. Ecstatic, I agreed. I had visions of cosy talks about literature etc. etc.. Boy was I wrong! He was ruthless with me. He tore down my best writing. He made me write the same story again and again, over and over. I cried when I got home. He made me analyse the story, " Hills like white elephants", and I had NO clue how to do it. Every analysis was wrong, wrong, wrong and I was one very frustrated woman. It was pure hell! I have never forgotten that dang story <smile>.

But then, just as I was about to give up, he praised me. I knew that the praise was deserved for I worked VERY hard in spite of my tears and my frustrations. Praise was not an every day or even every week commodity - there was a great deal more stick than carrot. He helped me, twice a week, through a semester and then we had to stop.

A few years later, I realised what he had done for me. He had taken a novice adult student without so much as a clue and made me into the succesful grad student I became. One day, I ran into him on the street, and I could tell him how much I appreciated what he had done for me. He said, that he had only helped, I had DONE the work myself.

So what if you have messed up? That was yesterday....

Today is NOW.

There is a story in my native language (which is not English).

" 'Talent', the Lord said, 'is not free'".

You have already paid in gold coin, so don't waste your talent!

Nan

PS: We have a section called General Discussion, where we can discuss general information about Psychopaths. Since our last posts have gone off topic I will move our discussion over to the thread: General Discussion. I will wait an hour or so to give you a chance to see this PS which I have added after I wrote the post.

Nan

well hello all you nice people,
It only took me half a week an an e-mail or 2 to Dianne to find these posts. Oh Dianne, Nan, whoever, Sylvie, (I must re-read) I would love to be in the grips of one of those dang merciless writing professors. I HAVE had a taste of them. And oh with the life I have lead, there is lots of emotion to draw from that would eventually help to be an effective story teller.
You know you guys, my sister murdering her husband has turned my world upside down in another way entirely and unforesee. We all know about family mythology and the crazy roles we are assigned.... I was raised being told how kind and loving and generous and wonderful my sister was and how cold and all things opposite I was. I believed it but it always made me scratch my head too-- something wasn't right. Going back through the family history, it was all a lie perpetrated by the powerful Matriarch my Mother and in many many ways quite the opposite were true. She's had violent tendencies since she is a wee child and a meaness and a fight in her since the get-go. My dear old Gran, we lied to her and said my sis was driving a car and her husband was her passenger and he died in the accident they had (rather than tell her about the murder) and that the accident was not my sister's fault. Well, talking to my often times senile Gran who was VERY lucid yesterday, you would have though we had told her the truth. She went on a rant about how "I never thought it would happen in my family... and that poor man... and she used to pinch your legs and they'd be all full of marks all the time Sue and I used to get so mad and your parents never said a word. That girl has a meaness right here (she hits her heart with her fist) and says if she doesn't get it out something worse is going to happen. !?!?!?
There will be a healing for me.
I have gone through life feeling like a substandard creature and reinforced it with the "P" father of my child, and a string of loser boyfriends I tried to "save," am set up for couseling w/ group at a clinic but may change and go for a private counselor instead as this place always throws alot of addicts in the mix and I am tired of them.
Thanks you all.
Work IS THE CRITICAL FACTOR for me. LUCRATIVE work. Sorry the post was long but I was MIA from the board Will check out that web site for free lancing

Outsider

Feel like I killed the thread...someone mentioned me as hyperactive-- yes-- tried a stimulent med and found after 6 -10 hours a terrible mood swing. Hard for me to sort out lots of stimuli. Easier for me to ignore it and move on. Ruined the flow here of the thread. Very hyper. I believe sometimes this sort of personal damage is a result not unrelated to post traumatic stress syndrome. All my life there has been at least one character very close to me whom I never knew what would happen next. When I picked up the phone or walked in the room, would it be heaven or hell? A life time of this and I believe you can be permanently on alert for danger and "jumpy" like a prey animal. You don't see horses or gazelle lying around smelling the flowers and sunbathing but you see wolves and tigers doing it all the time. Life has made me into the prey side of the human species. Broken down into it's simplest terms, that is what we are talking about here. The P's don't come to eat us but they come to use us up in every other way and if we are lucky enough to figure it out and get away, we are always on alert for more of them.

Outsider,

There are enough different threads that often posters tend to congregate on one or two at a time so don't take it personally at all.

I'm sorry that you've had such bad experiences, especially involving family members (that's extremely rough) and I hope you find some solace here.

Regards,
Sylvie

Sylvie and Outsider,

No, please do not take it personally Outsider. Sylvie is right!

Also, please remember that there are only a few people replying to many post and that it takes time as well as energy and the day is only so long. There is work, friends and family that also demands attention.

We all try to do the best we can with the time we have <smile>.

Take care,

Nan

I'm hyper too, Outsider.

This forum can be too... a bit of fire-fighting goes on every once in a while when the board gets busy. All of a sudden you think, "Hmm... did nobody like my last post?" when they have gone off to fight a bigger fire somewhere else on the board. But its also an ADD characteristic ~ taking things personally, so I give myself a talking to and try to control the knee-jerk reaction. I not always successful though!

Hmm, you were permanantly switched on because you never felt safe. Interesting. I was permenantly switched on as a child too, but for me it came from neglect... subconsciously I was petrified I was going to be left behind so I could never relax.

The first time I was left without my sister at a friend's house (aged 4) I got into such a state I collapsed. I was fine as long as I was with my sister (she's a year and 2 weeks older than me, we look like twins and were brought up like twins).

My mum is ADD too and I think that is why I have identity issues now... my therapist can find no evidence of maternal mirroring. I learnt everything by copying my sister, so she always took the lead.

I think my Mum is BPD too. Do you think there's anything like this going on with your Mum? I mean do you think that some of the issues you have, have come down from your Mum... its one thing to have these things genetically, when they exist in your nurture environment too I don't think you stand a chance!

Still, bar all the P-abuse, I love life in the fast lane Outsider... I hope you do too.

Kind regards

KT

outsider
(member)
10/19/04 04:11 PM

Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

tell me your experiences: do they "spontaneousely" muster up a tear at an appropriate moment?
ARE THEY THAT GOOD that they can do that quietly without going into a histrionic monolog? How many are that refined and educated to not go over the top and do this subtley ?
Any one with experience with this "skill?" less is more--"refined cunning"-----is it real?

Nan
(member)
10/20/04 02:13 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

Dear Outsider,

We all, without exception, understand the strong need to find and recieve as much help and information as we can on the subject of the P in our lives.

It would be much easier for you if you could stay with the same thread rather than keep creating new threads. KT, used the fine analogy of liking replying to putting out fires. We try <smile>, but too many different 'fires' become confusing with the result that there is not enough water to go round.

Each and every one of your questions are important. For myself, I can say that it becomes difficult to keep track of the many different threads, who started the thread and what are the questions that I need to attend to. When I know that the thread, XYZ, is your thread, I can easily relate to the information you have relayed in other posts in THAT thread and I can compose a reply without having to go all over the board for information that will help me to help you. Please realise that we all want to help you if we can.

Try to stay with your original thread, My Sister in in Jail for Murder.

Warm thoughts,

Nan

Mati
(member)
10/20/04 02:29 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

Nan

I just saw this post above after starting a new thread myself. I wonder whether it will be able to be left as it is an entirely new subject?

**Hi Mati, I just combined your excellent post with an existing thread about NPD and P's.

Thanks,
Di

Nan
(member)
10/20/04 03:13 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime

Dear Mati,

"I just saw this post above after starting a new thread myself. I wonder whether it will be able to be left as it is an entirely new subject? "

Your new thread is a good subject! I haven't had time to read it all, but from the little I have read, it seems VERY appropriate. You are relating important information that both readers and posters can use.

I was NOT, NOT, NOT implying that Outsider's threads are unimportant or unworthy of being answered. What I have tried to say, is that we all really want to help her if can. Too many different questions from the same poster, questions spread over too many different threads makes it difficult, at least for me, to provide a caring and thoughtful reply. Right now, the board is humming with activity. Some of this activity is not related ONLY to new posters. All of us 'old timers' are former victims as well, and we too need and want support from each other. That support may not seem as acute, but it IS important. We all need and want to continue healing. If we do not, what hope is there that we can continue to help others?

Kind regards,

Nan

Mati
(member)
10/20/04 03:23 AM

Nan
(member)
10/20/04 03:48 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

Mati,

I wrote:

"I was NOT, NOT, NOT implying that Outsider's threads are unimportant or unworthy of being answered."

You replied:

"EH??? I did not suggest you said that????"

NO! I said that to ensure that no one, and expecially Outsider, would think that I thought so.

Nan

outsider
(member)
10/20/04 05:57 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

HOLY CANOLLI!!!!

YIKES!!!

okay,
darn, was hoping there were 8 responses to the question...rats..
actually I picked up this jumpin around habit from an old board a few years back and it confuses the hell out of me too
so I'll do as Nan suggested but since it's here now
until it gets deleted
CAN they cry on a dime for a moment without a long display?

recovery
(member)
10/20/04 06:01 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

hi outsider

You certainly do hop around - must keep you fit??
I think the answer is taht the P will do or pretend to do/feel/say whatever it takes to get what they want - period.

Catch you later

Recovery
Nan
(member)
10/20/04 06:12 AM

Re: Can Psychopaths cry on the spin of a dime?

Outsider,

"CAN they cry on a dime for a moment without a long display? "

Yes, the P I knew could do it. However, the things he cried about always seemed terribly inappropiate to me. As if he was faking the tears.

Nan