Hello Everyone,

I am ashamed to have to tell you that I have not been able to leave my P completely. I hate myself for having to come here and tell you this. But I have no where else to go. I realise that no one can help me anymore. My friends are frustrated with me and my therapist seems to be getting that way too. I try and try to leave him but after a few days the agony is too much too bare. Then I go back. I have been reading about co-dependancy and it seems to fit me a lot. But I don't know really. I don't know anything anymore.

Life just seems to be too much for me right now. I feel such depair so I try to change things as best as I can. I have sold my house because I just don't want it anymore. Right now I am looking for an apartment. I feel sick most of the time and I am either too tired or can't sleep at all.

I know he is doing this to me but I can't begin to describe the horrible feelings I have to deal with when I try to stay away.

This is my second time around with him and it is worse than the first. He says that the only reson he came back to me was because he was sick emotionally and couldn't say no. At the beginning of this time he was almost like the beginning of the first time. He gradually changed but I guess I expected that since I know all there is to know about a P. I kept telling myself that I wouldn't get so involved this time emotionally. What a fool I was. In the last 3 months he has all of a sudden decided that we see too much of each other. So I get mad and tell him that we should stop altogether and when I do that he will call and ask me to come over. I know he will so I found myself always threatening to leave. I know it was manipulation on my part but that was the only way to get him to stop these games about us "slowing down" a bit. How did he expect me to be with him for 7 months every weekend and then just "slow down" to every other weekend or less. Now he says that we can see each other every other weekend but no more sex cause he says it just messes me up. And in between I am not allowed to phone him. He wants me to prove to him that I am not after him cause we are "just friends". He says he doesn't want a relationship with anyone. So if I do it this way for him it will prove to him that I am not after him and he can relax with me and not be scared of me anymore. I don't know why he could be with me so much before and now all of a sudden he is scared and doesn't want me to sleep there or phone too much or come over as much. For the first 7 months he was inviting me over all the time but he says he did that to make me happy but he really didn't want to, he was just sick and it will take him a long time to feel better. He wants us to be good friends but not too much. How on earth am I suppose to just go over when he says? He said that I spend to much time with the "I feel" business when he just does things "the proper way". He told me to stop the therapy, that if I would just listen to him I would be fine. Now last night I called and I wasn't suppose to this week so he was very angry and told me he was waiting to see a therapist to find out what he should do with me. He wants to find out whether this is right or wrong to see me and to find out why I do things that he feels are wrong like phoning him too much and wanting to be with him too much. (once a week). Yet he told me other times that therapists are crazy. My therapist told me that if I stayed away he would contact me sooner or later. He said this is about power and control for him. I stayed away for 2 weeks last month and didn't call either or talk to him at work. He never called or talked to me either until I finally broke and went to his house unexpected. After the big lecture, I tried to leave several times but he convinced me to stay till the next day. He just didn't want me to go. Why, Why, does he act like he doesn't want to see me anymore but won't let me go home when I arrive? My therapist said "no contact" at all, not even a hi when I see him at work. I can't seem to do that. Does he want me or not? I try to do the things he asks and I always help him around the house. You know, at the beginning this time, he would hold me and kiss me and he even said that he thinks he stills loves me. Now there is no more hugging and kissing during intimacy. Just the sex act alone. He says he doesn't love me, he just wants friendship. I should be mature and be friendly at work because our goal is too stop seeing each other completely someday soon so he tells me. He said he doesn't want a girlfriend anymore and wants to live his life alone. When I say that I want to stop everything, he accuses me of breaking up with him. Well, you tell me how I can break up with him if we are just suppose to be friends like he says.

Anyway, he seems to be pushing me away slowly so I guess he doesn't want me now. My therapist says it is just a game and that if he didn't want me he would not see me at all. I don't know what to think. I don't know who to beleive anymore.

I have let so many people down. I am sick and ashamed and don't know what to do or where to turn. I just can't take the agony of not seeing him at all and I don't know how to do that without suffering so bad. The pain and longing is tremendous. Am I the only person who feels this? Am I so sick beyond help? I am so sorry for failing. Please forgive me.

Blondie

Blondie,

It took me over two years to leave my P. And that was even after I'd moved in and out after he'd convinced me to come back two or three times. I used to joke about the revolving door at the end of the driveway.

Reading about what you are going through, I can say I know EXACTLY what you mean when you are away from him. You know it's destroying you, but the hold they have on you keeps a tow rope on your heart. The manipulation and control is devastating, as well as the grief I felt in losing my own integrity.

The only thing I can compare the feelings to is like:
sliding down a bannister of razor blades. Once you started at the top, there was no stopping until you got to the bottom. Or, the other analogy that fit for me was having your skin peeled off while you were still alive. Like being on one of those old fashioned apple peelers. The P has you clamped in from head to toe and slowly turns the handle and you're virtually skinned alive. You feel raw and exposed and worst of all helpless.

There aren't many people who can relate to that feeling, friends, families or therapists. No one ever talks about it. And most people involved with a P generally blame one of the symptoms for the aftermath of the relationship. I think it's fairly rare for an individual to stand back adn really look at what 'it' was. It's so traumatic, once you realize what you've been living with, the illusion of the lie. He destroyed my reputation and lied about me to everyone I knew after I left. The shock that my character was annihilated has caused elinated any confidence in how I trust myself.

Going through this all I wanted was someone to acknowledge, I'd done nothing wrong except exercise bad judgement about becoming involved with him. I wanted someone that I knew, who cared about me,to tell me they were sorry this was happening to me and I could have used about a dozen more hugs everyday.

But I'm a capable, independent, intelligent, and successful woman(or I used to be - unfortunately that's mostly how I ended up with a P)People I knew weren't accustomed to seeing me as needing help or visibly hurting. Everyone knew what was going on and they behaved like 'since I stayed with him for so long - somehow I deserved it'. But I was a target not a victim. That is the distinction. I too thought it may be a co-dependency, but I find that notion applies in such a general sense to so many people. I see 'enablers' as better term that holds more responsibility.

An 'enabler' also can be the witness or by-stander of an event. What I'll always remember in my experience with my P is the silence of my friends.

I regret this isn't all that uplifting. However, I know when I was going through the worst, the isolation even when you are among people, was so suffocating. At least here there is at least a virtual representation that others can relate to your experience.

Chin up.

Cooper

PS I'm blonde too if that helps.

Blondie, you must be in a world of pain, I am truly sorry. I hope you know you can always come here and you will only receive support and the validation you may need for the next step of your journey.

Di

Blondie,

After reading Diane's gentle reminder I re-read my post and I want to offer my most sincere and tender-hearted apology. In my 'unsavvy-new-comer's-effort' to identify with the words you were sharing, I realize now I just got sucked into my own downward spiral in recalling the intensity of those feelings you described.

I too am so sorry for what you are having to bear. Please forgive me for seeming to be so insensitive. Diane is right, this is a place to come.... for sharing and support. I am grateful I found it just a short time ago.

Again I truly am sorry.

Cooper

Here's a big hug 10 X the normal squeeze!

Cooper, please share your story. Comparing notes is one of the best ways to come to terms and not feel so isolated.

I got the sense from your post that it was valdiating, you seem to have shared the same horrible betrayal.

Di

Blondie,

I just wrote a LONG reply to your post and it got lost somewhere in cyber-land. I guess the most important thing is to tell you that there is no need to feel ashamed here. Many people here have had the same experiences.

It is a terrible thing to go through, the later stages of the relationship and the breaking off phase. It takes a long time, but it does eventually get better.

You are light years ahead of where I was during my "2nd time around" with the P. It is wonderful that you have this knowledge so early. I didn't even start to realize what he was doing (and why) until about 4 years (and many more painful cycles) into the relationship, and accepting it is sometimes still hard. It does help to come here and also to other sites and to read about the same toxic P behaviors, but from other people's situations. When I can recognize that the primary problem lies in HIM, and not with me, it helps me realize that I am not crazy, just wounded and (slowly) healing. The secondary problem however, is mine: it is the choices I make in responding to him, and the boundaries I choose.

Our hearts are slower than our minds in accepting the truth of the situation. And for me, oh how my heart DIDN'T WANT to know!!! But eventually, the knowledge seeped into more levels, and over time, alot of time, it has gotten better, much better. It was hard for me to accept what he is, it was harder for me to accept that there was no hope for a relationship with him, and it was hardest to realize that there IS a life without him. Even though at first I didn't want to be without him, I now know that I do have a much better life without P. It has taken time.

I have some bad days where the pain and obsession comes back, almost full force. But overall, the good days are starting to outnumber the bad.

Please be gentle and patient with yourself in your recovery. It takes time.

((((((((((((((((((((Blondie))))))))))))))))))))

Take Care,
Leti

Leti,

You write: "I have some bad days where the pain and obsession comes back, almost full force."

I think its easy to be obsessed with a p. Their good side represents all we want in a soulmate, so we can choose to suffer the occasional horrific indignities. They are equally obsessed with us, but not in a loving way. Theirs is an obsession to merge, engulf and destroy their target as does a phagocyte engulf bacteria.

I believe that the ambivalence that is felt on leaving the p is denial that our loved one can be so malevolent. We want so much to give them the benefit of a doubt, give them time to see their wickedness and effect change. But to wait too long is to lose one's separateness, one's ability to function without the p. Our neediness for our idealized version of him overtakes all the badness.
Just my humble opinion. I read Codependent No More several years ago. Obviously it didn't give me the self realization to avoid a p.

survivor

blondie,

(((blondie)))

Try not to feel ashamed for going back and forth with the p. The actual name of this is "Psychopath in your life," not out of it.

"I have let so many people down. I am sick and ashamed and don't know what to do or where to turn. I just can't take the agony of not seeing him at all and I don't know how to do that without suffering so bad. The pain and longing is tremendous. Am I the only person who feels this? Am I so sick beyond help? I am so sorry for failing. Please forgive me."

You do not need to be forgiven for anything. You are a human being who loves. No need to ever ask forgiveness for that. You are not failing, you are vacillitating. In limbo. Your mind tells you one thing, your heart another. I do not think you are "sick beyond help," after all, you are asking for help on this post.

As for being codependant maybe, that is a valid reason for wanting to fix someone else, change them into what they may be capable of, instead of what they actually are. I would not have any idea if you are codependant or not, in time you will be able to make that determination on your own. I think, as another poster said on, I believe, the General Discussion thread, most all people have codependant traits.

Its that word Love that causes so much pain sometimes. People with addictions love, codependants love, at one time or another, the whole world "loves." And it can hurt pretty bad. I am sorry you feel your therapist is frustrated with you. Have you asked him/her if they are? You might try going to "Therapy and the Effects" thread. Maybe some insight for you there?

You are obviously in much emotional pain. Speaking for myself, I can give you no answers. I understand the pain loving a p can cause, with or without them. Yes, it is horrendous. A longing that holds a candle to no other longing ever.

The "come here", "go away", of loving is just deeply hurtful. Just please don't feel ashamed. You are a human being with feelings, emotions, doubts, misgivings, hurting inside because you love someone deeply. There is no shame in loving.

I know sometimes we feel we have let others down who have been there for us so many times, failed their expectations of what they suggested we do with our lives. If we did not do it, we felt we let them down. Not true. We simply chose to listen to their opinions, not follow them. We made a choice that was in our best interests at the time.

True friends will know that, and love you anyway. A lot of times, when asking another person what to do, what to think, what to feel, it might make one feel obligated to follow the advice. No, never. It only says, "I value your opinion, I need your take on this. As a friend, tell me what you think." So they do. That in no way obligates us to do it.

That is why they are friends. They will be there for us through the best of times, the worst of times, and never tell us we let them down for not living our life their way, just because we asked how we should live it.

In a situation where deep love is involved it is not unusual to want outside help. We all do it all the time. But wanting help and acting on it are two differant things. We can take everyone's opinion and at that point, form our own. A lot of times what we do is nothing close to what others told us to do.

Remember, that does not make you a failure or letting others down. It makes you a person who values other people's opinions enough to ask what they are, and values yourself enough to make the right choice for you.

I am sorry for your pain. I wish there was an easy fix, if there were, I would offer it. Please do not beat yourself up inside for loving someone.

My deepest, most sincere wish to you is that you find the strength to get through whatever may come, and remember that it is your life too, not just his, and you have a choice in how it plays out. You are of value and your thoughts and feelings count for something.

Best wishes, I hope you find answers and feel better, and get some sleep. Let us know how it is going. I care, we care.

Laura

Dianne,

Thankyou for your kind, kind words. I will always remember what you said and try not to hesitate to keep posting here.

Cooper,

You don't have to be sorry at all. I know what it is like to hear someone talk about certain feelings that open up memories of the same horror. I compare it to a plugged toilet that starts to overflow. The crap comes back at you.

The pain and longing I feel to me compares to a lion in a cage that wants out so bad and it just paces back and forth, back and forth, preoccupied, thinking how to get out, mouth open, heavy breathing, concentrating on one thing only, escape!

That is what I feel. The desperate need to escape this terrible agony. To see him just once more. So I pace this house knowing it would be a big mistake to go to him but knowing it will also remove the knife in my heart. For a short time......

Thankyou for your kindness and compassion.

Leti,

You hit the nail on the head. When I realised what he was, I couldn't believe it! That was suppose to be "only in the movies". But you are so right in saying "it was harder to accept that there was no hope for a relationship with him and it is hardest to accept that there IS a life without him". I thought about that all night and realised that I need to accept that there is no hope for a relationship with him. Why I thought there was a chance is beyond me. Maybe because he keeps telling me that when he feels better and I show him that I can change and be what he wants me to be then maybe we can be together. I already look like a pretzel now but it just doesn't seem to be good enough.

Thankyou for your thought-provoking words.

Laura,

Where do I start?.......First of all, I did want to "fix" or "help" him. Here was a man who seemed so out of place socially at work. Didn't seem to fit in. Was so quiet, hardly talked to anyone there for so many years......except me. Why me? I don't know. Possibly because I was outgoing, had so many friends at work and was very well liked. He used to talk about his live-in girlfriend and how she was so bad. a drunk, who never came home on the weekends. He gave her everything she ever wanted. This wonderful man used to pick her up off the driveway and take her in and tuck her into bed so she wasn't outside all night freezing to death...passed out. His step-daughter stole from him and smashed up his car but he still used to give her 20 bucks here and there if she needed money on the weekends. The ex just bought groceries and he paid all the bills. He knew my marriage was in trouble and he told me that I was being treated badly and he would never treat a woman like that! Nine years of this kind of conversation. Still most people at work thought there was something very wrong with him. Not me though. I KNEW I could help him!

Well, a year after I became single, there he was, on my side as he put it, willing to fix my car or anything else I needed. So at last, even though it took 45 years, blondie's soulmate, prince charming, knight on a white horse or whatever you want to call it, had arrived. All he needed was a little help from me....TO BECOME HUMAN! as I now realise. I was ready for the job! I could do this. After all, my husband needed help all the time. All I had to do was change this and that and he would be happy. So I did. I brought up a son who is developmentally handicapped who is now in a group home. The job of helping this man was nothing compared to my previous life. No problem! For 4 months. Then the bomb dropped. I became "TOO EMOTIONAL"! He wanted to "teach me how to think properly". He does everything proper you know." He was brought into this world to teach people".. "to help them". Boy, he sure taught me. How to cry uncontrollably, till my head ached. How to shake till I thought I was losing my mind. How to feel fear, real fear, how to do the craziest things that no normal living human being would do and while you are doing them you wonder why you are so crazy but that doesn't stop you! You humiliate, degrade and disrespect yourself all in the name of love. But wait, it doesn't stop there! A year later, you do it all over again because the love didn't die yet and you know you can still "help him". (excuse me, the anger is seeping through here). Boy, reading this over, I see a very sick woman.

Laura, I talked to my very dearest girlfriend last night and she told me that she loves me and although she sometimes feels dissapointed in my actions, it doesn't matter, she will always be there for me. She said when I tell her things and all she does is listen, she feels it is like therapy for me, to discuss it. Sometimes I give her the answers I am looking for just by my talking out loud to her. I do seem to figure things out this way occasionally all by myself. At those times she tells me how proud she is of me. She says I am doing better.

What I don't understand is this "come here, go away" syndrome. I do realise now that he can't seem to take people around him too much. He needs a lot of time alone. My girlfriend helped me to see this. She said that it takes so much energy for him to be nice to me and so he needs time out to re-energize himself, to come up with a new plan to cause chaos for me when I get too comfortable with things. She doesn't think he is done with me yet. She said he thrives on getting a reaction out of me. Without my emotions, he doesn't exist. What do you think about this? Is this pulling away and pulling me back sound familiar to you? Why doesn't he just tell me it is over. I told him to say that but got no response. Nothing. Please give me your opinion.

Sorry to bore you with the ugly details. I do want to thank you for you heartfelt reply. It meant so much to me. I thank God for people like all of you. I pray every night for a way out.

Blondie

blondie,

You could never bore me with details. It is the details of the relationship with the p that can make it a very big thing. I probably post more details here than anyone, and also think it must be boring to others. It is not. It is extremely helpful. A lot of your details today, here, are also mine.

"He used to talk about his live-in girlfriend and how she was so bad. a drunk, who never came home on the weekends. He gave her everything she ever wanted. This wonderful man used to pick her up off the driveway and take her in and tuck her into bed so she wasn't outside all night freezing to death...passed out."

One of my ex p's live-in's was a "drunk" also. I have written of her here recently. Do I know she was a drunk? No. Only what he told me. He met her in the same bar he met me in, her a customer, I was the waitress earning grocery money for my 3 children. I have told here that he got up one day and left her, cut off her phone service in his name, sick of all the crap and catching her with other men. His story. Over one year after he left me, I found out from a very dear friend that knew them both all those years ago, that she kicked him out. She wanted love, he wanted a free ride.

He told of how she was in bars all night, a bar fly. Yet, my friend told me she was a stripper for a living. The p never mentioned that part to me. No matter, he got by with the lie for over 9 years. Entirely through the marriage. He claimed to have taken such good care of her. I believe that. His idea of contribution in a relationship is to wine and dine, romance and seduce. While he expects his partner to pay the bill. Literally. I paid over $100,000 in an 8 year marriage to be loved by a psychopath. Now am still paying to be left by one. Oh, what price does one put on being loved by a p?

"He knew my marriage was in trouble and he told me that I was being treated badly and he would never treat a woman like that!"

I had been somewhat abandoned before the p, by a fiance' with a drinking problem. He left a note though and did not vanish to me. My youngest son was 4 when I began the relationship with him, 6 when he left one day. It hurt us both real, real bad. My son loved him so much, and he never ever saw him again. I did though and eventually the relationship dissolved totally.

The ex p knew this. He knew how much my son and I had suffered emotionally due to this. The very night the p and I got together, he told me, "I would never do that to you. That was a horrible thing to do. You did not deserve it."

He told the truth. He abandoned me 3 times, and never once LEFT A NOTE!!! So....what he meant was, "When I abandon you, and I will, I will not leave a note explaining why. That was a horrible thing for your ex fiance to do (leave a note). You did not deserve to know why he left you. What you deserved was to always, always wonder why."

So see? Sometimes the way a person talks, we think they mean something else than what they really mean. With a p, there is a continual lack of communication problem, even if the p never shuts up. What they mean is not what you are hearing. It is usually what you hope you are hearing. I know to read between the lines now. Not to take anyone's word for fact, sometimes its just words. It is their actions that back up their words.

A friend told me once that I didn't know him at all. I told him, yes I do, and I like you. You are a real nice person. He said, "How do you know that for sure?" I said, "Because we have talked so much and I have gotten to know you." He said, "Wrong Laura. You have gotten to know the ME I want you to know, through my words. You will NEVER know what I am thinking though." He told me this in response to me asking him how the p could tell me he loved me and couldn't wait to spend the weekend with me, then 6 hours later got out of bed and abandoned me.

"What I don't understand is this "come here, go away" syndrome."

1. I agree with your friend. Sounds like you have found someone who totally has your best interests at heart. Yes, it is very helpful to vent, to let it all out. It helps us see things in the light of the truth, which is what is impossible to do if we stuff it inside. We continue to see the lies the p wants us to see. A reality check with an outsider is always eye opening. The hard part is doing something about what we realize is the truth of it all.

2. To my p..."do you want a Divorce? If you do, why don't you just say so and quit acting like you hate me?" His reply, "I don't want a Divorce, Babe. I love you. I will always love you. I'd do anything to fix our marriage. I never wanted a Divorce. You were the one who wouldn't let me come home! Tell me what I can do to fix our marriage and I will do it." Me to the p, "Quit lying." Long pause. Swallow. "Yes, Babe. I can do that. I will do anything to save our marriage."

3. This was said mid-April, 2001. He left June 1, 2001.

4. He lied about not lying anymore. He wanted a Divorce, he did not want to pay for it. He had brought me to the dire straits of hell time and again. I was without a doubt, the walking dead. Emotionally, physically, mentally. When all that is coming out of my mouth is "life sucks, can't anything go right, why is this happening" and I couldn't eat, sleep, I had absolutely no purpose to life anymore. I could find no joy in the sun, the moon, a friend, my children, a kind word from a stranger. I looked at the whole world through his eyes. All things were on Earth to make my life hell.

Yes, he wanted to save the marriage long enough to destroy me more. So he lied about wanting to save it. And he threw in a "babe" here and there to make it look real to me. It was a con, the whole marriage was a con...of me.

You pray every night for a way out? That is good. God will answer your prayers, in His time. Some will be blatantly obvious, some not so obvious. I too prayed for an answer, help, a way out of the whole mess. What I needed was the answer as to why I wanted to stay in the mess.

I went to church and prayed for the p's return. God declined that one. God knows best. Instead of bringing him back, He is slowly, but surely, helping me understand what it is I WANT back, WHY I think I need it back, and WHY I allowed a man to love me in such a vile way at all.

As "Worried" said on an old post, "Please define your definition of love." I am going to do that if it takes me forever.

God, family , friends, coworkers, strangers, this forum are all helping me define "love." I am learning not what love "is", but what it is NOT.

We all move at a differant pace. We all come to realizations at differant times than other folks. We all learn in differant ways. God will help us learn in the way that is best for us. As He will do for you also, I am certain, if you ask. If you believe in God.

Some people can read instructions and understand them. Then they build something, or put something together. I do not fair well with instuctions in writing. I need to experience it, build or fix it by experience, or I will never understand. Some can be told what they need to do, and simply do it. I have to learn what to do. I am learning what to do, by God teaching me what NOT to do. I must love me more than I ever loved the p. Then there will be no room for abuse and psychopaths in my life.

I didn't deserve the abuse, no one does. In time, we all will know why we tolerated it, and we will be done with our search.

I do very much care about your situation. I feel for you, I know your pain, as I also know the pain of others here. We have all been there, walked it, felt it, lived it. I hope, for myself anyway, that God will lead me to why I felt that pain was a good thing.

((((blondie))))

Laura