Hello Everyone,

I am ashamed to have to tell you that I have not been able to leave my P completely. I hate myself for having to come here and tell you this. But I have no where else to go. I realise that no one can help me anymore. My friends are frustrated with me and my therapist seems to be getting that way too. I try and try to leave him but after a few days the agony is too much too bare. Then I go back. I have been reading about co-dependancy and it seems to fit me a lot. But I don't know really. I don't know anything anymore.

Life just seems to be too much for me right now. I feel such depair so I try to change things as best as I can. I have sold my house because I just don't want it anymore. Right now I am looking for an apartment. I feel sick most of the time and I am either too tired or can't sleep at all.

I know he is doing this to me but I can't begin to describe the horrible feelings I have to deal with when I try to stay away.

This is my second time around with him and it is worse than the first. He says that the only reson he came back to me was because he was sick emotionally and couldn't say no. At the beginning of this time he was almost like the beginning of the first time. He gradually changed but I guess I expected that since I know all there is to know about a P. I kept telling myself that I wouldn't get so involved this time emotionally. What a fool I was. In the last 3 months he has all of a sudden decided that we see too much of each other. So I get mad and tell him that we should stop altogether and when I do that he will call and ask me to come over. I know he will so I found myself always threatening to leave. I know it was manipulation on my part but that was the only way to get him to stop these games about us "slowing down" a bit. How did he expect me to be with him for 7 months every weekend and then just "slow down" to every other weekend or less. Now he says that we can see each other every other weekend but no more sex cause he says it just messes me up. And in between I am not allowed to phone him. He wants me to prove to him that I am not after him cause we are "just friends". He says he doesn't want a relationship with anyone. So if I do it this way for him it will prove to him that I am not after him and he can relax with me and not be scared of me anymore. I don't know why he could be with me so much before and now all of a sudden he is scared and doesn't want me to sleep there or phone too much or come over as much. For the first 7 months he was inviting me over all the time but he says he did that to make me happy but he really didn't want to, he was just sick and it will take him a long time to feel better. He wants us to be good friends but not too much. How on earth am I suppose to just go over when he says? He said that I spend to much time with the "I feel" business when he just does things "the proper way". He told me to stop the therapy, that if I would just listen to him I would be fine. Now last night I called and I wasn't suppose to this week so he was very angry and told me he was waiting to see a therapist to find out what he should do with me. He wants to find out whether this is right or wrong to see me and to find out why I do things that he feels are wrong like phoning him too much and wanting to be with him too much. (once a week). Yet he told me other times that therapists are crazy. My therapist told me that if I stayed away he would contact me sooner or later. He said this is about power and control for him. I stayed away for 2 weeks last month and didn't call either or talk to him at work. He never called or talked to me either until I finally broke and went to his house unexpected. After the big lecture, I tried to leave several times but he convinced me to stay till the next day. He just didn't want me to go. Why, Why, does he act like he doesn't want to see me anymore but won't let me go home when I arrive? My therapist said "no contact" at all, not even a hi when I see him at work. I can't seem to do that. Does he want me or not? I try to do the things he asks and I always help him around the house. You know, at the beginning this time, he would hold me and kiss me and he even said that he thinks he stills loves me. Now there is no more hugging and kissing during intimacy. Just the sex act alone. He says he doesn't love me, he just wants friendship. I should be mature and be friendly at work because our goal is too stop seeing each other completely someday soon so he tells me. He said he doesn't want a girlfriend anymore and wants to live his life alone. When I say that I want to stop everything, he accuses me of breaking up with him. Well, you tell me how I can break up with him if we are just suppose to be friends like he says.

Anyway, he seems to be pushing me away slowly so I guess he doesn't want me now. My therapist says it is just a game and that if he didn't want me he would not see me at all. I don't know what to think. I don't know who to beleive anymore.

I have let so many people down. I am sick and ashamed and don't know what to do or where to turn. I just can't take the agony of not seeing him at all and I don't know how to do that without suffering so bad. The pain and longing is tremendous. Am I the only person who feels this? Am I so sick beyond help? I am so sorry for failing. Please forgive me.

Blondie

Blondie,

It took me over two years to leave my P. And that was even after I'd moved in and out after he'd convinced me to come back two or three times. I used to joke about the revolving door at the end of the driveway.

Reading about what you are going through, I can say I know EXACTLY what you mean when you are away from him. You know it's destroying you, but the hold they have on you keeps a tow rope on your heart. The manipulation and control is devastating, as well as the grief I felt in losing my own integrity.

The only thing I can compare the feelings to is like:
sliding down a bannister of razor blades. Once you started at the top, there was no stopping until you got to the bottom. Or, the other analogy that fit for me was having your skin peeled off while you were still alive. Like being on one of those old fashioned apple peelers. The P has you clamped in from head to toe and slowly turns the handle and you're virtually skinned alive. You feel raw and exposed and worst of all helpless.

There aren't many people who can relate to that feeling, friends, families or therapists. No one ever talks about it. And most people involved with a P generally blame one of the symptoms for the aftermath of the relationship. I think it's fairly rare for an individual to stand back adn really look at what 'it' was. It's so traumatic, once you realize what you've been living with, the illusion of the lie. He destroyed my reputation and lied about me to everyone I knew after I left. The shock that my character was annihilated has caused elinated any confidence in how I trust myself.

Going through this all I wanted was someone to acknowledge, I'd done nothing wrong except exercise bad judgement about becoming involved with him. I wanted someone that I knew, who cared about me,to tell me they were sorry this was happening to me and I could have used about a dozen more hugs everyday.

But I'm a capable, independent, intelligent, and successful woman(or I used to be - unfortunately that's mostly how I ended up with a P)People I knew weren't accustomed to seeing me as needing help or visibly hurting. Everyone knew what was going on and they behaved like 'since I stayed with him for so long - somehow I deserved it'. But I was a target not a victim. That is the distinction. I too thought it may be a co-dependency, but I find that notion applies in such a general sense to so many people. I see 'enablers' as better term that holds more responsibility.

An 'enabler' also can be the witness or by-stander of an event. What I'll always remember in my experience with my P is the silence of my friends.

I regret this isn't all that uplifting. However, I know when I was going through the worst, the isolation even when you are among people, was so suffocating. At least here there is at least a virtual representation that others can relate to your experience.

Chin up.

Cooper

PS I'm blonde too if that helps.

Blondie, you must be in a world of pain, I am truly sorry. I hope you know you can always come here and you will only receive support and the validation you may need for the next step of your journey.

Di

Blondie,

After reading Diane's gentle reminder I re-read my post and I want to offer my most sincere and tender-hearted apology. In my 'unsavvy-new-comer's-effort' to identify with the words you were sharing, I realize now I just got sucked into my own downward spiral in recalling the intensity of those feelings you described.

I too am so sorry for what you are having to bear. Please forgive me for seeming to be so insensitive. Diane is right, this is a place to come.... for sharing and support. I am grateful I found it just a short time ago.

Again I truly am sorry.

Cooper

Here's a big hug 10 X the normal squeeze!

Cooper, please share your story. Comparing notes is one of the best ways to come to terms and not feel so isolated.

I got the sense from your post that it was valdiating, you seem to have shared the same horrible betrayal.

Di

Blondie,

I just wrote a LONG reply to your post and it got lost somewhere in cyber-land. I guess the most important thing is to tell you that there is no need to feel ashamed here. Many people here have had the same experiences.

It is a terrible thing to go through, the later stages of the relationship and the breaking off phase. It takes a long time, but it does eventually get better.

You are light years ahead of where I was during my "2nd time around" with the P. It is wonderful that you have this knowledge so early. I didn't even start to realize what he was doing (and why) until about 4 years (and many more painful cycles) into the relationship, and accepting it is sometimes still hard. It does help to come here and also to other sites and to read about the same toxic P behaviors, but from other people's situations. When I can recognize that the primary problem lies in HIM, and not with me, it helps me realize that I am not crazy, just wounded and (slowly) healing. The secondary problem however, is mine: it is the choices I make in responding to him, and the boundaries I choose.

Our hearts are slower than our minds in accepting the truth of the situation. And for me, oh how my heart DIDN'T WANT to know!!! But eventually, the knowledge seeped into more levels, and over time, alot of time, it has gotten better, much better. It was hard for me to accept what he is, it was harder for me to accept that there was no hope for a relationship with him, and it was hardest to realize that there IS a life without him. Even though at first I didn't want to be without him, I now know that I do have a much better life without P. It has taken time.

I have some bad days where the pain and obsession comes back, almost full force. But overall, the good days are starting to outnumber the bad.

Please be gentle and patient with yourself in your recovery. It takes time.

((((((((((((((((((((Blondie))))))))))))))))))))

Take Care,
Leti

Leti,

You write: "I have some bad days where the pain and obsession comes back, almost full force."

I think its easy to be obsessed with a p. Their good side represents all we want in a soulmate, so we can choose to suffer the occasional horrific indignities. They are equally obsessed with us, but not in a loving way. Theirs is an obsession to merge, engulf and destroy their target as does a phagocyte engulf bacteria.

I believe that the ambivalence that is felt on leaving the p is denial that our loved one can be so malevolent. We want so much to give them the benefit of a doubt, give them time to see their wickedness and effect change. But to wait too long is to lose one's separateness, one's ability to function without the p. Our neediness for our idealized version of him overtakes all the badness.
Just my humble opinion. I read Codependent No More several years ago. Obviously it didn't give me the self realization to avoid a p.

survivor

blondie,

(((blondie)))

Try not to feel ashamed for going back and forth with the p. The actual name of this is "Psychopath in your life," not out of it.

"I have let so many people down. I am sick and ashamed and don't know what to do or where to turn. I just can't take the agony of not seeing him at all and I don't know how to do that without suffering so bad. The pain and longing is tremendous. Am I the only person who feels this? Am I so sick beyond help? I am so sorry for failing. Please forgive me."

You do not need to be forgiven for anything. You are a human being who loves. No need to ever ask forgiveness for that. You are not failing, you are vacillitating. In limbo. Your mind tells you one thing, your heart another. I do not think you are "sick beyond help," after all, you are asking for help on this post.

As for being codependant maybe, that is a valid reason for wanting to fix someone else, change them into what they may be capable of, instead of what they actually are. I would not have any idea if you are codependant or not, in time you will be able to make that determination on your own. I think, as another poster said on, I believe, the General Discussion thread, most all people have codependant traits.

Its that word Love that causes so much pain sometimes. People with addictions love, codependants love, at one time or another, the whole world "loves." And it can hurt pretty bad. I am sorry you feel your therapist is frustrated with you. Have you asked him/her if they are? You might try going to "Therapy and the Effects" thread. Maybe some insight for you there?

You are obviously in much emotional pain. Speaking for myself, I can give you no answers. I understand the pain loving a p can cause, with or without them. Yes, it is horrendous. A longing that holds a candle to no other longing ever.

The "come here", "go away", of loving is just deeply hurtful. Just please don't feel ashamed. You are a human being with feelings, emotions, doubts, misgivings, hurting inside because you love someone deeply. There is no shame in loving.

I know sometimes we feel we have let others down who have been there for us so many times, failed their expectations of what they suggested we do with our lives. If we did not do it, we felt we let them down. Not true. We simply chose to listen to their opinions, not follow them. We made a choice that was in our best interests at the time.

True friends will know that, and love you anyway. A lot of times, when asking another person what to do, what to think, what to feel, it might make one feel obligated to follow the advice. No, never. It only says, "I value your opinion, I need your take on this. As a friend, tell me what you think." So they do. That in no way obligates us to do it.

That is why they are friends. They will be there for us through the best of times, the worst of times, and never tell us we let them down for not living our life their way, just because we asked how we should live it.

In a situation where deep love is involved it is not unusual to want outside help. We all do it all the time. But wanting help and acting on it are two differant things. We can take everyone's opinion and at that point, form our own. A lot of times what we do is nothing close to what others told us to do.

Remember, that does not make you a failure or letting others down. It makes you a person who values other people's opinions enough to ask what they are, and values yourself enough to make the right choice for you.

I am sorry for your pain. I wish there was an easy fix, if there were, I would offer it. Please do not beat yourself up inside for loving someone.

My deepest, most sincere wish to you is that you find the strength to get through whatever may come, and remember that it is your life too, not just his, and you have a choice in how it plays out. You are of value and your thoughts and feelings count for something.

Best wishes, I hope you find answers and feel better, and get some sleep. Let us know how it is going. I care, we care.

Laura

Dianne,

Thankyou for your kind, kind words. I will always remember what you said and try not to hesitate to keep posting here.

Cooper,

You don't have to be sorry at all. I know what it is like to hear someone talk about certain feelings that open up memories of the same horror. I compare it to a plugged toilet that starts to overflow. The crap comes back at you.

The pain and longing I feel to me compares to a lion in a cage that wants out so bad and it just paces back and forth, back and forth, preoccupied, thinking how to get out, mouth open, heavy breathing, concentrating on one thing only, escape!

That is what I feel. The desperate need to escape this terrible agony. To see him just once more. So I pace this house knowing it would be a big mistake to go to him but knowing it will also remove the knife in my heart. For a short time......

Thankyou for your kindness and compassion.

Leti,

You hit the nail on the head. When I realised what he was, I couldn't believe it! That was suppose to be "only in the movies". But you are so right in saying "it was harder to accept that there was no hope for a relationship with him and it is hardest to accept that there IS a life without him". I thought about that all night and realised that I need to accept that there is no hope for a relationship with him. Why I thought there was a chance is beyond me. Maybe because he keeps telling me that when he feels better and I show him that I can change and be what he wants me to be then maybe we can be together. I already look like a pretzel now but it just doesn't seem to be good enough.

Thankyou for your thought-provoking words.

Laura,

Where do I start?.......First of all, I did want to "fix" or "help" him. Here was a man who seemed so out of place socially at work. Didn't seem to fit in. Was so quiet, hardly talked to anyone there for so many years......except me. Why me? I don't know. Possibly because I was outgoing, had so many friends at work and was very well liked. He used to talk about his live-in girlfriend and how she was so bad. a drunk, who never came home on the weekends. He gave her everything she ever wanted. This wonderful man used to pick her up off the driveway and take her in and tuck her into bed so she wasn't outside all night freezing to death...passed out. His step-daughter stole from him and smashed up his car but he still used to give her 20 bucks here and there if she needed money on the weekends. The ex just bought groceries and he paid all the bills. He knew my marriage was in trouble and he told me that I was being treated badly and he would never treat a woman like that! Nine years of this kind of conversation. Still most people at work thought there was something very wrong with him. Not me though. I KNEW I could help him!

Well, a year after I became single, there he was, on my side as he put it, willing to fix my car or anything else I needed. So at last, even though it took 45 years, blondie's soulmate, prince charming, knight on a white horse or whatever you want to call it, had arrived. All he needed was a little help from me....TO BECOME HUMAN! as I now realise. I was ready for the job! I could do this. After all, my husband needed help all the time. All I had to do was change this and that and he would be happy. So I did. I brought up a son who is developmentally handicapped who is now in a group home. The job of helping this man was nothing compared to my previous life. No problem! For 4 months. Then the bomb dropped. I became "TOO EMOTIONAL"! He wanted to "teach me how to think properly". He does everything proper you know." He was brought into this world to teach people".. "to help them". Boy, he sure taught me. How to cry uncontrollably, till my head ached. How to shake till I thought I was losing my mind. How to feel fear, real fear, how to do the craziest things that no normal living human being would do and while you are doing them you wonder why you are so crazy but that doesn't stop you! You humiliate, degrade and disrespect yourself all in the name of love. But wait, it doesn't stop there! A year later, you do it all over again because the love didn't die yet and you know you can still "help him". (excuse me, the anger is seeping through here). Boy, reading this over, I see a very sick woman.

Laura, I talked to my very dearest girlfriend last night and she told me that she loves me and although she sometimes feels dissapointed in my actions, it doesn't matter, she will always be there for me. She said when I tell her things and all she does is listen, she feels it is like therapy for me, to discuss it. Sometimes I give her the answers I am looking for just by my talking out loud to her. I do seem to figure things out this way occasionally all by myself. At those times she tells me how proud she is of me. She says I am doing better.

What I don't understand is this "come here, go away" syndrome. I do realise now that he can't seem to take people around him too much. He needs a lot of time alone. My girlfriend helped me to see this. She said that it takes so much energy for him to be nice to me and so he needs time out to re-energize himself, to come up with a new plan to cause chaos for me when I get too comfortable with things. She doesn't think he is done with me yet. She said he thrives on getting a reaction out of me. Without my emotions, he doesn't exist. What do you think about this? Is this pulling away and pulling me back sound familiar to you? Why doesn't he just tell me it is over. I told him to say that but got no response. Nothing. Please give me your opinion.

Sorry to bore you with the ugly details. I do want to thank you for you heartfelt reply. It meant so much to me. I thank God for people like all of you. I pray every night for a way out.

Blondie

blondie,

You could never bore me with details. It is the details of the relationship with the p that can make it a very big thing. I probably post more details here than anyone, and also think it must be boring to others. It is not. It is extremely helpful. A lot of your details today, here, are also mine.

"He used to talk about his live-in girlfriend and how she was so bad. a drunk, who never came home on the weekends. He gave her everything she ever wanted. This wonderful man used to pick her up off the driveway and take her in and tuck her into bed so she wasn't outside all night freezing to death...passed out."

One of my ex p's live-in's was a "drunk" also. I have written of her here recently. Do I know she was a drunk? No. Only what he told me. He met her in the same bar he met me in, her a customer, I was the waitress earning grocery money for my 3 children. I have told here that he got up one day and left her, cut off her phone service in his name, sick of all the crap and catching her with other men. His story. Over one year after he left me, I found out from a very dear friend that knew them both all those years ago, that she kicked him out. She wanted love, he wanted a free ride.

He told of how she was in bars all night, a bar fly. Yet, my friend told me she was a stripper for a living. The p never mentioned that part to me. No matter, he got by with the lie for over 9 years. Entirely through the marriage. He claimed to have taken such good care of her. I believe that. His idea of contribution in a relationship is to wine and dine, romance and seduce. While he expects his partner to pay the bill. Literally. I paid over $100,000 in an 8 year marriage to be loved by a psychopath. Now am still paying to be left by one. Oh, what price does one put on being loved by a p?

"He knew my marriage was in trouble and he told me that I was being treated badly and he would never treat a woman like that!"

I had been somewhat abandoned before the p, by a fiance' with a drinking problem. He left a note though and did not vanish to me. My youngest son was 4 when I began the relationship with him, 6 when he left one day. It hurt us both real, real bad. My son loved him so much, and he never ever saw him again. I did though and eventually the relationship dissolved totally.

The ex p knew this. He knew how much my son and I had suffered emotionally due to this. The very night the p and I got together, he told me, "I would never do that to you. That was a horrible thing to do. You did not deserve it."

He told the truth. He abandoned me 3 times, and never once LEFT A NOTE!!! So....what he meant was, "When I abandon you, and I will, I will not leave a note explaining why. That was a horrible thing for your ex fiance to do (leave a note). You did not deserve to know why he left you. What you deserved was to always, always wonder why."

So see? Sometimes the way a person talks, we think they mean something else than what they really mean. With a p, there is a continual lack of communication problem, even if the p never shuts up. What they mean is not what you are hearing. It is usually what you hope you are hearing. I know to read between the lines now. Not to take anyone's word for fact, sometimes its just words. It is their actions that back up their words.

A friend told me once that I didn't know him at all. I told him, yes I do, and I like you. You are a real nice person. He said, "How do you know that for sure?" I said, "Because we have talked so much and I have gotten to know you." He said, "Wrong Laura. You have gotten to know the ME I want you to know, through my words. You will NEVER know what I am thinking though." He told me this in response to me asking him how the p could tell me he loved me and couldn't wait to spend the weekend with me, then 6 hours later got out of bed and abandoned me.

"What I don't understand is this "come here, go away" syndrome."

1. I agree with your friend. Sounds like you have found someone who totally has your best interests at heart. Yes, it is very helpful to vent, to let it all out. It helps us see things in the light of the truth, which is what is impossible to do if we stuff it inside. We continue to see the lies the p wants us to see. A reality check with an outsider is always eye opening. The hard part is doing something about what we realize is the truth of it all.

2. To my p..."do you want a Divorce? If you do, why don't you just say so and quit acting like you hate me?" His reply, "I don't want a Divorce, Babe. I love you. I will always love you. I'd do anything to fix our marriage. I never wanted a Divorce. You were the one who wouldn't let me come home! Tell me what I can do to fix our marriage and I will do it." Me to the p, "Quit lying." Long pause. Swallow. "Yes, Babe. I can do that. I will do anything to save our marriage."

3. This was said mid-April, 2001. He left June 1, 2001.

4. He lied about not lying anymore. He wanted a Divorce, he did not want to pay for it. He had brought me to the dire straits of hell time and again. I was without a doubt, the walking dead. Emotionally, physically, mentally. When all that is coming out of my mouth is "life sucks, can't anything go right, why is this happening" and I couldn't eat, sleep, I had absolutely no purpose to life anymore. I could find no joy in the sun, the moon, a friend, my children, a kind word from a stranger. I looked at the whole world through his eyes. All things were on Earth to make my life hell.

Yes, he wanted to save the marriage long enough to destroy me more. So he lied about wanting to save it. And he threw in a "babe" here and there to make it look real to me. It was a con, the whole marriage was a con...of me.

You pray every night for a way out? That is good. God will answer your prayers, in His time. Some will be blatantly obvious, some not so obvious. I too prayed for an answer, help, a way out of the whole mess. What I needed was the answer as to why I wanted to stay in the mess.

I went to church and prayed for the p's return. God declined that one. God knows best. Instead of bringing him back, He is slowly, but surely, helping me understand what it is I WANT back, WHY I think I need it back, and WHY I allowed a man to love me in such a vile way at all.

As "Worried" said on an old post, "Please define your definition of love." I am going to do that if it takes me forever.

God, family , friends, coworkers, strangers, this forum are all helping me define "love." I am learning not what love "is", but what it is NOT.

We all move at a differant pace. We all come to realizations at differant times than other folks. We all learn in differant ways. God will help us learn in the way that is best for us. As He will do for you also, I am certain, if you ask. If you believe in God.

Some people can read instructions and understand them. Then they build something, or put something together. I do not fair well with instuctions in writing. I need to experience it, build or fix it by experience, or I will never understand. Some can be told what they need to do, and simply do it. I have to learn what to do. I am learning what to do, by God teaching me what NOT to do. I must love me more than I ever loved the p. Then there will be no room for abuse and psychopaths in my life.

I didn't deserve the abuse, no one does. In time, we all will know why we tolerated it, and we will be done with our search.

I do very much care about your situation. I feel for you, I know your pain, as I also know the pain of others here. We have all been there, walked it, felt it, lived it. I hope, for myself anyway, that God will lead me to why I felt that pain was a good thing.

((((blondie))))

Laura

Laura,

I am so sorry for everything that you had to go through with this shell of a man. You were obviously in this hell a lot longer than I. I want you to know that I care about you and everyone in this kind of nightmare. I will pray for all of us.

It caught my eye when you said that he threw in a "babe" once in a while. Do they all talk like this? Mine calls me "baby" and yet tells me that we are just friends.

I had a bad experience today. I am on holidays and I was driving past my work and saw him outside on his break. He was sitting under the umbrella table with a female co-worker. Well, normally this would be nothing but he NEVER sits at that table. I have tried to get him to sit there with me and he says he doesn't like to sit there. Well, I am not there this week and there he was, sitting under the umbrella with her. Have you ever felt that horrible crushing feeling in your chest or that sinking feeling that washes over you instantly? That's what I felt, kind of a slimy feeling that he was trying to con her while I am away. I know that it shouldn't bother me but it made me sick. I know that we are suppose to be just friends even though we sleep together and he calls me "baby" and he accuses me of "breaking up" with him.

Anyway, I felt total devastation so I went to the donut shop at lunch where he sits in his car and eats all by himself daily. When I walked over to his car I acted normal. I couldn't bring myself to question him. I just felt relieved to see him. If I had asked him, he would know that it bothered me and that is what he wants. He did ask that I would give him the"weekend off" cause he has lots to do. I said yes.

The reason I was so alarmed and I definetily know why is because I don't trust him one bit. I know deep down that he is incapable of caring for me at all but my heart hasn't quite grasped that completely. I know he would grab the first available woman if he could. I hated myself for the horrible feelings I felt and the hurt when I saw him under that umbrella. I want to feel nothing, NOTHING AT ALL for this heartless, immoral
excuse for a man. I hope it comes soon. But working with him every day is my cross to bear.

Thankyou Laura
))))hugs(((((

Blondie

blondie,

I know that feeling you described. I could feel it while you were describing it. It's somewhere between your heart and your stomach, like being 4 years old and looking up in a crowd to find your mother has disappeared. It's a feeling of abandonment, a very old feeling. It's a feeling of danger. I felt it all the time with the p. That was one of my hooks. It's an awful feeling, like the worse homesickness you could imagine, like hearing your best friend has died.

If a man ever made me feel that way again, I would walk away and never look back. I consider it now a warning system, like pain if you touch a hot stove. There was always a threat with the p, that he could pick up my world and smash it any time he pleased. Don't rock the boat, don't ask for anything, don't move, or p will pull his scorched earth disappearing world trick. So, I spent years being as still as I could be, quieting everything I was, everything I loved, everything I could be, hoping not to rock the boat, hoping not to have my world smashed.

Once I was stuck in a gondola with 20 people high above the Austrian alps. The gondola just stopped. Everyone looked at everyone else. We held our breath. Suddenly, every small movement became life threatening. No one dared move.

That's the way my life was for years, stopped in a gondola high above the earth, afraid to move, going no where, just swinging terrifyingly in the wind. Never again.

I'm sorry you have to feel that way, even for a minute.

(This is just my opinion, based on my experiences).

blondie,

From the mouth of the p - "I'll never lie about loving you."
God, how many times did I hear that?!! I would tell him, liars do not pick and choose their lies. You are not a faucet. You cannot shut off your lying mouth. If you could, you would shut it off-period. You are lying about that too, loving me!

"No, I'm not Babe, honest. I have a problem with lying, yes, but never about that. I love you with all my heart."

Yes, hand me the dunce cap, I chose to believe a liar. That a pathalogical liar loved me. That he would not lie about that. But he lies about the color of his socks. He'd lie about having $1.00 when he actually had $2.00. He'd lie about big things, little things, dumb things, outragous things, anything and everything. I knew he was lying, his tales were too off the wall, too unbelievable. But when he said "I won't lie about loving you," all the sudden he became a truth teller to me!

For some reason I tolerated all the lies, deceit and the secret life for 8 years. Knowing something was going on. Yet, when it came to his "love", well, I flat refused to believe he would lie about THAT! He lied.

About other women? A favorite lie. And he is very, very good at it. Early in the marriage, he was a bus mechanic for 19 months. As women drive a bus also, I knew there was a high possiblity that he worked with lots of women. Many young, because usually stay at home mothers do that and can take their children on the bus with them. Also, I was so in love with him, so afraid that our 10 year age differance would put me in a race, so to speak, with young women. Plus, he was very handsome, outside only.

Anyway, I would ask him all the time...do you work with women? "No, Babe, I don't. Honest. I haven't seen one woman at work, ever." So I would say, "women drive a bus."
"Well, Babe, I imagine they do, but I do not see them. I am the mechanic. If women work there, they deal with my boss, not me."

About 1 1/2 years into the job, I again question him. He screams at me..."I am sick of you accusing me of having something to do with other women at work! I have told you a thousand times no other women work there and if they do, I do not see or know them!!!!"

About 2 months after that...

The p is at work at his part time job. A heavy truck mechanic. It is a Saturday, 8:30 a.m. My young son and I are asleep. The phone rings. I answer it, it wakes my son up. A woman says, "is (p) there?" I said "no, who is this?" She says, "Brenda. I work with (p) and my bus is broke down out here at the college. The boss had surgery and he told us that (p) would be on call for the weekend if we have trouble with the busses."

I said, "Well, Brenda, he isn't here right now, he has a part time job and he is at work. But I tell you what, this sounds pretty important, so I will take my son and go to his job and tell him." (I am so PO'd!!, but she told me that was very kind of me to do that) "By the way, and this will sound stupid, I know he will recognize the bus, bright yellow and all, but how will he find you? Will you be standing by it? How will he recognize you?"

She played right into this.

"Oh! He'll know me, why I talk to him everyday!"

Well, sure enough, I was delighted to go to his job and tell him she had called and needed help with a broken down bus at the college. I won't tell you how ugly it got, but he had that p look, one of a deer facing headlights, about to get hit. Only this time, he didn't give it because he was a psychopath. He gave it because he was the deer and I was the headlights! No I didn't hit him. Not too hard. (Lol, just kidding, I didn't hit him.)

17 months he got by with that lie. And I even got screamed at when he was still lying about what I KNEW to be true.

Like my mom would say, "Me thinks thou doest protest too much!" Meaning, those who protest the loudest are usually, most always, the guiltiest.

I regret not divorcing him then. I had not been abandoned yet at that time. This was not the only instance of finding out about other women. This was one of several.

He called me one day, in 2000 and said, "Laura, I just heard a song on the radio. Its really good, and it describes how I feel about you. I would have written it myself if it hadn't already been done. Its called 'The Best of Intentions', have you heard it?"

"No."

"Well, listen to the country station on your way to work. Maybe they will play it."

I did. I heard it. I was not phased in the least. It talks of some guy that screwed up everything, but with the best of intentions.

So....I tell him I heard it. That if that guy knew he was screwing everything up so bad, why didn't he just STOP? Then I told him I knew a song that reminded me of him.

He said, "Which one, Babe?"

I said, "The Wife is the Last One to Know."

He was silent. I was happy.

Best wishes to you. We'll talk again soon. Remember, you are of value. Don't let anyone treat you like you are not. I found that while I was busy loving the p, other men were wishing I didn't. Good men. So, hold your head up high, walk proud, and look around you. You may be surprised who is looking back. Just a suggestion.

Laura

blondie,

I forgot to tell you thanks for understanding the shell of a man I married. That truly descibes him too. An empty shell. Like a pie crust. Starts out empty, but if someone fills it up, it makes a delicious pie. So I filled his shell up with my good stuff, and he moved on.

Also, I know the pain of the other woman stuff. I did not see it with the p, only the last 2 weeks he was here did he ever allow it to be seen. But I felt it, I cried and hurt over it, because I knew he was lying about "that" too. All the signs were there, just not the actual figure of a woman. He had many other women. Not just one other, many others.

That is the part of the psychopath that is hard to understand, but we must try. You say he would grab the first available woman if he could? In reality, the first available woman can be any woman. The p does not look at us as women with feelings, hearts, emotions, love to give. They do not look at us as anything but someone to fill up the empty shell. We are a conquest, a victim, a breathing form of something that can fill a need.

The need can be conversation, adoration, sympathy, money, love, or just plain someone else to lie to. A psychopath cannot get enough attention, ever, so it takes several women to fill them up with attention. They are self absorbed and need constant validation that they are a worthwhile person.

In my case, no woman was special to him. Not even me. I was just his favorite victim. I know how bad it must have hurt, I have seen other men I loved with another women, much to my surprise. It does feel like you are being ripped from the inside out. It is a fear of losing someone you love to someone else, of being lied to about it, of a lot of things. It is, without a doubt, extremely painful inside. It can also be the fear of being left alone while the man found someone else. It just provokes all types of fear and hurt inside us.

In the case of a true psychopath, it is not the case. Yes, they may choose someone else. But only until that woman runs out of uses. We see it in a normal manner and think that if they leave us for another, their life will be good, they will stop lying, they will not be a psychopath anymore. That this woman will be "the one" who changed them, fixed them, helped them get well. We look at it as them having a normal life, an apple pie life full of wonderful things and us getting our heart ripped to shreds.

Not so. A psychopath does not change for anyone, including a woman. He is still a psychopath.

When I realized that my husband left me at age 33 and would not become a Priest (!), in other words, be "with" another woman, it tore me up. For a while. Then I didn't care about that anymore and I prayed for HER. I asked God to take care of her emotions, feelings, life and soul. That she is in deep, deep harms way and has not a clue. He will be no differant to her than me.

To hear a p tell it, all the women they "loved" were bad, crazy, ran around, etc. None of them were good women. That is another lie. The psychopath is the bad one. He hurt, used and lied to all the women he claimed were bad. All past relationship failures were "her" fault according to a p. No, a thousand times, no!

Any relationship the p has that failed was HIS fault because he is and always will be a p. No woman on earth can change that.

So yes, it is devastating to see what you saw. Hurts like heck. I wish I had actually "seen" mine do what he was doing behind my back the entire marriage. I would have left him, I just know it. Since I never saw, only suspected, I had a 50% chance that he wasn't lying about other women, 50% that he was. I went with "wasn't." Even with the proof that occasionally popped up. My mistake.

Again, best wishes to you. As I said before, I wish I had an easy fix for this. I wish the same for me. You will know what you need to do, in time. In the meantime, feel what you need to feel. Its okay. You love the guy.

Laura

Molly,

Your examples of that "feeling" are dead on. It reminded me of a time years ago when my son was 5 years old. We were camping at a park by the lake. I turned away for a minute and my son was gone. I looked around the campground and then checked the washrooms. He was nowhere. That same feeling hit me like a ton of bricks. Sheer panic. A wave of uncontrollable fear that washes over your whole body in an instant. It was that same kind of feeling that I got yesterday. Fortunatily there was a happy ending with my son. He was in another washroom further away. There will be no happy ending with my P.

Also, when you talk about not rocking the boat etc. that really hit a cord with me. I know that when I go up there, I never know whether I will be received with a sour or a sweet. What mood will it be? Happy to see me, ready to critisize me, complaining because he is tired and really doesn't want me there, wants to "teach me something", is sick and going to die within 2 years? Oh, the list goes on and on. But your right, I try so hard not to rock the boat, just let him ramble on, get it off his chest because I know that within a couple of hours, he will change again and be nice and I will be left standing there thinking..."this is satan in the flesh". BUT... he must know that and so the transformation begins, an angel appears, and blondie is sucked back in to the whirlpool of hell. So why rock the boat,I tell myself, maybe next time will be good from the start.......

Thanks to your post, I now realise why things are changing for him, why he is pushing me away. It is my big mouth. A few months ago, I had heard some things about him and (with me having that terrible fault of needing to know the truth), I questioned him, a lot. Man, was he mad, said he can't have a woman that doesn't believe in him and what he says. I called him a liar several times becauses he WAS lying and I knew it. We fought a lot over 3 months. That, I bet, is what brought the change. I guess you're not suppose to question them are you? Rock the boat? I must have sunk it!

Take care Molly and thanks
))))hugs to you((((

Blondie

Laura,

You have made me realise something that I never thought of before. Yes, he lies all the time. He even lies when he knows that I know the truth. So, if I knew that, then why did I think he was telling the truth when he said he cares about me, that I am special. Why did I see him as a truth-teller in that area. I don't know but now I realise that it was a lie also. It is hard for someone to believe that someone they love can look them straight in the eye and tell them how much they care and not feel a thing.

Also, when I see him talking to a woman, my first instinct is that he is after her but now that I have read your reply, I realise that it is not always about sex. The need could be money, love, sympathy, etc. Well, my p's biggest need is for sympathy. You know, he never and I mean never tells a happy story. Everyone has done him wrong, even the people at work that don't even talk to him have done him wrong. It's wrong if they don't speak to him because he said that it makes him look bad. It's wrong if they do speak because they talk badly to him. I will give you an example. ... He is very quiet and doesn't talk to many people as I said before. So some of the woman called him "shy". Well, you would think she shot him in the foot. He even went to management to complain that people were calling him names and that it is against the law. Just because they called him shy. When I tried to explain that it was not an insult, he then turned on me and said it was against the law. So I just shut up. You can't tell him anything. Once a woman passed him in the hall and said "smile, it can't be that bad." WELL,,,,, he turned around and she knew she had better keep going. He looked for her later but she had heard that he was livid and kept out of his way. All over that one silly statement. But I couldn't get him to see that it was nothing directed at him. Anyway, sympathy is a need for him like breathing is to us.

So I just wanted to let you know how much you are helping me. I have read your posts and my heart goes out to you. I pray for you and I hope that you can settle all this legal stuff soon because when you do, you can then concentrate on your emotional needs and once you do that then you can let go with the attitude that they are sick, sick people whom we can't understand and never will. And you will go on with your life and concentrate on "Laura" and what she needs and wants. That is something we all need to strive for. My therapist said to me, "when you let go emotionally, then you will move forward and become indifferent to him and what he does won't matter anymore.

Thankyou Laura
))))hugs and prayers((((

Blondie

blondie,

Hang in there, you are going to beat this hands down. You sound like you are learning so much here, on this forum. Information is a wonderful tool. If we only have our own version of something, then our vision will be tunnel vision. With the help of those here, who have lived it, you will have several tools to work with so that you may build a life that is accepting of nothing less than love, kindness and respect.

You will continue to figure things out, some will come slowly, some faster. It took a long time to get where you are and it will take a while to get where you want to be.
It is hard to accept the reality that they are a psychopath, when their very purpose is to have altered our perception of reality by loving them. We are asking our brain to do something that it has lost the power to do. Therein, the doubts, questions, non believing of it all.

We're trying to bake a delicious loaf of bread, and have all the ingredients to do it, but no oven!

Okay, here is your oven. Right here on this forum. So go ahead, start the recipe.

Take one p and fall in love.
Put in one ton of lies and deceit.
Sprinkle in some romance and seduction.
Add one tablespoon of reality.

Note: You may also add any of the following:

1 cup of pain
2 cups of sorry I hurt you
3 cups of not sure why I did it
4 cups of you are the only one
5 cups of I'll never leave you
6 cups of I'll always love you

or, add nothing at all.

Let rise.
And rise.
And rise.

Poke your finger in it.

Note: Be careful so it does not blow up in your face. A doughy face is a messy face!

Put the ball of dough in a buttered pan.

Note: It may slide all over, going every which way, but eventually it will land in the center where it needs to be.

Bake on 400 for however many years it takes to be done.

Yes, Blondie, this forum helps. It is truly a Godsend.
A teenager suffering depression, once said to me (no, not one of my children), "how can you possibly know how I feel? You are not me, you do not feel what I feel. How can you tell me you understand when you do not know the pain I am going through, when you are not me?!"

Unbeknownst to this teenager, many, many years ago, I had suffered a major depression. I was in the process of treatment for it. I understood her depression. I was there. But she was right. I could never feel HER pain. That belonged to her and her alone.

Thinking of you, thank you for your kind and sincere words regarding my situation. You described what I should try to do and what would be nice to happen. Maybe that book I want to write someday could be called, "Laura gets a life," like a Gidget kind of thing?

(((blondie)))

Laura

Laura/Cherie

Nobody can diagnose multiple personality just like that. Its a load of bull, although I suppose ass----s can also suffer stress when they really did put themselves on the spot, with no way to lie their way out.

Cherie, you just about made a classic description of my older boy. Simply put, he makes me want to throw up he's so transparent. I can't remember the last thing that was his fault. He always adds sugar to any bad situation, making it always worse. Whenever he is caught, his getout story always implicates someone else, and usually someone who he perceives as being a good bet to throw blame on- like they have a record, or they have an ethnic background which is perceived by jerks to be "all thieves".

Morals of a skunk, and getting skunkier fast.

Regards

Blondie,

It IS almost impossible to get away. Psychopaths bury their tentacles deep into every
recess of our psyches and our souls. They are psychological and spiritual cancers,
reaching invisibly into our innermost beings, spreading through every fiber and filament of
emotion and thought. They do this with focused malevolent intention. Their purpose is to
claim their victim utterly, to command her will. Their longing is for Godlike power, the
power to turn another person into a functionary of their own will.

Be gentle with yourself, and know that the battle you are waging is the toughest battle
anyone can wage. A psychopath is no piddling adversary. He knows how to claim you.
He knows how you work. He is like a virus. He encodes himself into your DNA and
takes over the operation of your cells. It is no coincidence that psychopath's victims
almost all speak of obsession and horrific pain when attempting to leave. You have been
programmed to "need" what the psychopath provides, even though it is bad for you. You
have been programmed to intense fear of what he may do to you, emotionally, and
programmed to dance like a woman whose feet are being shot at, in an the effort to
prevent more pain. You have been programmed to believe that if you dance to his tune
you have a chance to save yourself more pain. This is actually not true. It is an illusion.

The psychopath is the ultimate capitalist. He knows that by controlling supply he can
induce panic in his market (you) for goods.

I left my p husband 11 months ago. In the past few months, I have separated,
psychologically, to the extent that I see the p objectively rather than reacting within our
deeply entrenched dynamic. It makes me sick to see how he constantly attempts to
manipulate me into being upset and off-balance. Some exmaples:

He was my ride home after a trip, recently. He was not at the terminal when I got off the
bus, and I was worried, trying to get change and call him. When he came in, and I saw
him, he noted my worried face. I said, "Oh you're here!" Nothing wrong with that. A
perfectly normal response. I had been worried, a passing emotion. But p would never let
a normal emotion of mine pass without attempting to exploit it into something bigger and
nastier so that he could frame me as a bitch. He turned and walked quickly out the door,
with me hurrying to catch up. I had a heavy backpack and was exhausted, and he let the
door slam on me. I know why he did it. He thought since I was upset and tired, he could
make me react to this indignity, that I would register a protest, and then he could accuse
me of bitching him out from the moment he had arrived to do me this favor. I ignored it.
As I ran down the sidewalk after him, I thought, god, a year ago, he'd have me by the guts
right now, and we would fight all the way home, and by the time we got there, I would
feel like a horrible, disgusting, worthless bitch. Instead, I just thought, ahhhhhhh...what a
relief it is!!

The last time he came to my home to do paperwork, he came in the door calling for the
phone, then the phonebook, hurry, hurry, I've got to call into this radio station, some
a--hole just said something stupid. He was upset that businesses were not listed in the
white pages. I brought him several more phone books, and he was muttering and
unhappy, frantically searching for the number. I was sitting in the next room, and I called,
"You could call 411," and he let out this prolonged whine like I had just screwed
everything up by talking at the wrong time. The time before that, when he came by to do
paperwork, he kept insisting that I turn my attention to whatever he demanded, while I
was in the middle of something else. When I ignored him, and finished my task, he
slammed things around, sighed, and did all the body language things that say, "Here you
go, again. It is impossible to get along with you. You are such a bitch." I responded by
smiling and humming a tune.

That old saying that the beauty of banging your head against a wall is how good it feels
when you stop is absolutely true.

But, Blondie, it takes what it takes to get away. It took me 30 years. People who have
never been a psychopath's snare may look at you, and judge, but they do not know
anything about what they are judging. It is enough to be doing what you can, learning,
working on yourself in steps. You know your direction is out. You know you are going
to leave. (I know you are going to leave.) One thing I did during the 2 years that I knew
I was going to leave was practice. When I would be driving home, I would envision that I
was driving to MY home (sans psychopath), that I was going to drive into this or that
driveway, and I would picture what I was going to do when I got home (alone), check my
forum, read a book, eat popcorn, take a bath. I lived my life without HIM in my head,
rehearsing.

Readiness came as it came. My spiritual advisor is amazed by the easy transition I have
made from my life of 30 years to a man with whom I was obsessed. She says, "When you
were done, you were really done." And that is the truth. I tell her, it took 30 years, and it
took every last day of those 30 years. I could have left sooner, but I wouldn't have been
done. You will be done with him when you are done with him. And you will be stronger
for having won the battle.

Never feel ashamed to share anything with us. You have nothing to be ashamed of. We
have all been where you are now, and we all know how tough that place is. Our hearts are
there with you. ((blondie))

kris

Hi Laura and all,

I can attest to the lies and therefore makes it practically impossible to get away. Yes, the I loves yous then finding out where he was trying to pick up other women, and I would confront, he would manipulate and get me to feel guilty for not TRUSTING him.

Laura, I am thinking of your quote, "Me thinks that thou doest protest too much," bring backs memories for me too and
it does apply to the p. The only time I really seen him show some emotion when I caught him in a lie, he was trying to get out of with, "I am disappointed in you. I thought there was trust between us! Well, he broke that trust with his actions and your quote about "the wife being the last to know." You don't know how many times I wanted to pick up the phone and give her the facts that her husband is nothing but a serial cheater and that puts all the women in his life in emotional and physical danger. Beenthere

beenthere,

Ah, yes. Trust.

Why do we...

Trust the untrustworthy?
Believe the liar?
See the cheater as faithful?
Accept blame from the blameless?
Allow the perpetrator to claim they are the victim?
Love the unlovable?
Cry over evil going away?
Feel pain inside, caused by someone else?
Try to make real the unreal?
Mourn the loss of a psychopath?

Do we do any of this for others? Would it not take one lie, one act of unfaithfulness, one victimization of us to say "go away!" Would any other human being on earth get our forgiveness, our sympathy, our love, after even one such horrible display of evil? If they do, would they get another chance?

Probably not. Something about the psychopath provokes in us a deep need to forgive, forgive, forgive. We forgive the unthinkable, the unimagineable, the unforgiveable.

Until they are through with us. Then we cannot forgive, not ever. We cannot forget. We cannot forge onward. We now remember the lies, the deceit, the cons, the empty promises, the cheating, the pain inflicted upon our souls. We remember it all too well.

Why do we forgive WITH them, can't do it WITHOUT them? Because they are that good at wearing the Mask. The one that loves, cares, will always be there. The one that takes care of us when we are sick, holds us when we need held. The one who loved us so well. So well, it almost killed us i.e. Loved to Death. Now we know who started that expression, "I love you to death"...a psychopath.

The whole thing just bites. I know what you mean about wanting to call the wife and tell her. I wouldn't be able to not do it. I would call in a heartbeat. When I told him "the Wife is the Last to Know," I meant it literally. I always "knew", I just didn't know WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY...but I knew. Thats why I spent 8 years telling him to quit lying to me.

I am trying like heck to find out "why" I care that he is gone. As many friends have told me over these last 14 months, "What do you miss? The lies? The criminal activity? The serious financial problems? The stress? The crying? The worry of another abandonment? The deceit and manipulations? The job-hopping? What part of all that do you want back?"

All of it. I want my life back. I want my 8 years back. I want my ex husband to NOT be a psychopath. I want a chance to be more aware, not so naive, not a victim. I want to do it again, because now I know...that he IS a psychopath. I want to go back to the day we met and not meet him. I want it all back, so I can stop it from ever happening.

They just don't get it though. They have never loved a psychopath.

Laura

Laura,

Your line "I want him to not be a psychopath". Do you know how many times I have wished that too? The "if onlys" have ran through my head till they make me sick. I have prayed to God and asked him why this had to happen to me. What have I done that was so terrible to deserve this. Did I need to learn some kind of a lesson this bad?

You know Laura, I loved everything about him. His looks, his hands, his smell, his hair, right down to his feet. I felt so proud to be seen with him. I felt so proud that no one knew the "real" him except me. He only talked with me. He was so secretive with everyone else. I felt so priviliged. But......

This week has been terrible. He seems to have turned on me. Told me he is so sick emotionally, even went to a therapist. He said the therapist told him he has to be more assertive so he has been very nasty this week. Told me he has been trying to get rid of me for 3 years but I won't go away. Yet , he has been inviting me up just as much as me asking him if I can come up. He says he wants to stop our relationship for now until he feels better and then we can see each other again. He says no more sex, I said okay but I didn't plan on waiting till he feels better, that it was over for good. So 2 hours later he came to me at work and said we can see each other once in a while and for me to come up Fri. night. He said "but this is your last chance lady, you had better treat me right this time." So the rules are... to come up when he says, not to argue with him at all, sex only when he says, be friendly at work and not to call him very often.

Laura, I can't do this anymore. I am so sick emotionally and physically. It hurts soooo bad. I guess I don't have to tell any of you the kind of pain I am feeling tonight. Tomorrow I have to tell him goodbye for good, everything, relationship, friendship, everything. What makes me so sick inside the most is that it hurts real bad and I haven't even done it yet. And the fact that no matter what he has done to me so far, a part of me doesn't want to do this. That makes me so disgusted with myself. Am I crazy? To still want such a monster? Someone who looked me straight in the eye today and said "I want away from you!" And yet tomorrow will be another story. I'm sure. Or maybe not.

I don't sleep well anymore, I can't eat much of the time. My stomach hurts a lot lately, my head hurts, my back hurts, my heart hurts. I feel numb inside. I don't know how I treated him badly. By wanting to be with him? by wanting to talk with him? by wanting to help him? Yes, I have argued with him when I caught him in a lie, or when he tried to tell me that he was sick because of me or when he pulled me in and then pushed me away. Every flippin day the rules change. Now he is bound and bent that I chased after him and he never wanted me but was too sick to say no. Sometimes I would tell him that I won't call all weekend but then by Sunday, I would break down and call. He always acted like that was such a terrible thing to do, and he got so mad, so lately I did try to do everything the way he said, didn't argue, agreed with everything, didn't raise my voice, didn't ask for anything, stayed away all last weekend, but I slipped up and called and now all this.

I pray that I can do this Fri. night and end it without too much pain and without him trying to change my mind. God help me.

Blondie

blondie,

My ex had a "twin", a man who spoke with other women. I have told all about this "twin." From what I read here, your post, I have a twin too. You are thinking and feeling exactly as I am. The physical ailments even match. I too suffer daily headaches, stomach aches, can't eat. Of course, this is nothing new, except the headaches.

The desire to end it forever, eating you alive. I ended it forever, about 3 times or more. Then he ended it forever. Just when I was ready to start over.

It is very hard to believe they are actually a psychopath. It may always be hard to believe. I have said that I would assume my ex would have changed, become a truth teller, a debt payer, a law abider, now that he is gone to me.

I guess that is part of the blame we place on ourselves, the "if only I had done this or that...." They want us to blame ourselves. It is part of how they operate.

In a relationship with a non psychopath, a person will say, "Don't blame yourself. I did/said this or that and I will take responsibility for it..." Those are words that will never cross the lips of a psychopath. They do not know the meaning of blame on theirself or responsibility for their actions. To know that, would be to know someone needed to change their ways. A psychopath does not need to change, they love theirself just the way they are!

I know, speaking for myself, I hung on for dear life to him. No matter what the stakes, what the price I had to pay, I was not going to "let go." The harder I hung on, the more I suffered, the deeper in depression I sunk, the easier it was for him to slip away.

As I found out, when a psychopath is through with you, they are through with you. In their time frame, on their terms. They especially love being the one who ends it. In fact, they will have it no other way. Unless the victim beats them to the punch.

That is part of their magnetism. To have seduced our soul to the point that we cannot let go, no matter how bad it gets.

Well, this is Friday night, actually now Saturday morning. I wonder how you are, how it went. I would not want to be going through what you are, I have already been there, done that, and it is not pretty. The emotional pain is unreal. What are we afraid of? We are afraid of letting go of something that is evil and mean to us. Why? I do not know. Maybe because we first must let go of the good stuff? The good times, the love, the memories?

Pain holds onto us more than happiness. I do not know why that is. We may forget a truly happy moment in our lives, but we will always remember breaking a bone. I think its like touching a hot stove. We know how bad it burns our fingers, so learn not to do it again. Ever. But if we smell a flower, only remember the smell for a little while, we gravitate towards that flower again, because we equate something good with that flower. But...if that flower is a rose and has thorns, we know not to touch it on the stem, it will hurt.

I guess with a psychopath, we keep smelling the flower and forget about the thorns?

I wish you all the luck and strength you need to do what you feel is best for you. Okay, not best right now, it will hurt like heck, yes. But in the long run, best for you.

I wonder sometimes if I had to have more strength inwardly to live with him or to live without him? When I quit "smelling the flower," I will have the answer.

My thoughts are with you now and always.
Keep us posted.

Laura

(((Blondie))),
Reading your post brought those memories flooding back of the end times before I left the Psychopath of my deep love, confusion, bewilderment, numbness, desparation, shame, hopelessness/hope, fear, and all kinds of weird physical symptoms. Your words could have been my own. I felt like a puppet on a string.

I left him, Blondie. My body was "screaming" for me to leave, but my heart was broken. I am not going to tell you it was easy. The pain was excruciating and recovery long. It was worth it though. Your words remind me so much of how I felt. Blondie, you are not alone. So many of us here have been through those same feelings. I pray you find the strength to leave him and start the recovery process and a new life.

Praying for strength and peace for you Blondie,

Neverthesame

Blondie, I am so sorry for the hell you are suffering. And it is hell. Life with a psychopath is life in the down under. As Laura said, they have a talent for claiming your very soul. Then they subject it torture such as those who have not experienced it can not imagine.

It is hopeless to try to make sense of the things he says, or to twist yourself into a pretzel shape which he would find acceptable. He is purposely designing your task so that it is impossible to fulfill. One of the ways that psychopaths claim us is by hooking into our vulnerabilities, and absolutely everyone has some fear of not measuring up, of not being acceptable, not good enough, not able to "do it right". Who on earth has not found themselves wanting, at various times? It is a fact of human nature that we long most to please those we cannot please. He is also hooking into your fear of rejection (another universal human fear) by rejecting you over and over and over. He's a sick bast__d and I'd like to put my foot on his face.

Something I personally reacted to strongly in your post is the thing about him going to a therapist and her telling him he needed to be more assertive. Gag. They paint themselves as the victim. When my psychopath husband was torturing me beyond all human imagining, he had our entire community holding his hand and helping him with his "low self-esteem" due to his abuse from his wife.

They are vile beyond belief.

But I still loved this one while he was doing these horrible things to me, too. And I understand, and my heart goes out to you. The pain is just ghastly. I know it is.

I want you to know that when you get away from him, you will feel such an amazing sense of relief. It is like being let out of hell. No. It IS being let out of hell.

I will be thinking about you, today, you will be in my heart.

((blondie))

kris

p.s. Blondie, I had some more thoughts. How do they capture our souls? They take all of our control away, all of it, every last shred. Then, since they have all of our control, are the keepers of our selves, our autonomy, we are bound to them, sensing intuitvely that they have the thing we need for our surivival. We flounder and writhe, in their capture, unable to leave them alone, because, truly, when we ARE alone, we are missing to ourselves. We feel the reality that the self we so desperately need, in order to get comfortable, to even be able to sit still with ourselves, is in their possession. And we are driven back to them, again and again, because we cannot endure the emptiness and the craving for our essential part. We think that essential part is them. That is the illusion they have woven into us. It is not them. It is ourselves, which they have stolen, by stripping us of all that belongs to us, by God's design.

The agony that you are experiencing is a hallmark of the psychopath victim's experience. I know that agony is so intense that you would do almost anything to quell it even for a moment. I chose this path for years and years and years. The thing that finally got me past it was getting mad enough. My rage had to get bigger than the agony of being without the psychopath. I think I am trying to get you mad through these posts of mine, today. How dare this s.o.b. do this to you? He's a cockroach! Squash him!

As you go through the withdrawal, your self will come back to you, your precious, God-given, lovable wonderful self. You will feel human, again. That he has it is just an illuion. He is only able to make you unable to feel it, and long desperately for what you can feel only when you are with him. Really, your self is with you, now. The longer you stay away from him, the more you will feel your self.

Blessings, sweet Blondie.

kris

Kris, Laura, all of you,

I know you have been waiting for my post and I am so sorry to have to tell you that I FAILED miserably. I don't know why.

I saw a bad sign in me on Friday. The anxiousness, the excitement of going up there, seeing him again. I was weakening. So afraid to lose the last crumb of happiness that existed in my life...once in a while.

When i got there he warned me he was in a bad mood, that I was making him sick. I listened for a while and then suggested that I leave, that it was a bad time for me to come up.

Then the transformation slowly, slowly began, as I see it now anyway.

He said to come in for coffee before I go. Begged me. After coffee he suggested we go to sit in the park, (where we first met). We sat by the river and I got a gentle back rub without even asking for it. He of course told me about his illness and stress. He is trying to feel better, if only I treated him better. Back to his house and I said goodbye. With a pleading look in his eyes and the softest voice you have ever heard, he asked me to come in for a short while. More coffee and then the suggestion that we sit on the couch. A short while later and he wanted me to lay down with him. Hugs and kisses (which I never get anymore), calling me by his pet name for me, said "what am I going to do with you, you are such a devil and you're so hooked on me baby". HOOKED? try putty in his hands, mush. He was so gentle and tender. Upstairs we go, afterwards, he held me in his arms, kissed me goodnight (I NEVER get that EVER). In the morning more hugs, more coffee, telling me he enjoyed being with me. We can do that again every other weekend, as long as I prove to him that I will go with the flow, not argue, not display a temper, till he feels better and he is trying to. The idiot, idiot blondie replies "ok" wondering.... who is this man?

The one who screamed at me on Thursday that he "wants to get away" from me. You know I believed him when he said that. He looked so sure, so real, so sincere, like he hated me. There was no doubt in my mind that it was over for him. I was shocked, surprised, confused, HAPPY, on Fri. night

I look at myself and it makes me sick. Why do I only exist with him, I feel, I love, I am happy...for a while. It was like the beginning, the part I want so deperately back. The only part that wasn't real and yet I can't seem to accept that. I walk around like a zombie, numb, a robot... until I go up there, then it's like you couldn't peel me off the ceiling, I am so alive, my life has a purpose, my heart explodes, the withdrawal is gone, the pain dissapears.

I am so sorry to all of you, to ME. I MUST keep trying, I WILL get away. I just don't know when.

I can't thankyou you all enough. I live for your posts, your encouragement, your enlightening. Please bare with me as I try to get it right, to get my life back, to get away. It seems to be taking me soooo long. I need to find a way to hate him.

)))))hugs to all of you(((((

Blondie

Oh Blondie, Don't be sorry for us. You are the one who is suffering so deeply. One of the things that I found hardest during my years of pain was others' inability to remain supportive through it. In my case, it was different because no one knew he was a psychopath, not even me, thus all that was apparent was my chronic misery. If there is anything I can do to avenge my former situation, that I did not get the support I so richly deserved and desperately needed, it is to offer that to someone who is in that situation, now. You will have my support for as long as you need it.

The situation is the situation. He is a psychopath and he has the ability to make you feel the way you feel. Even once you know what is happening to you, the struggle to get free is overwhelming. They are worse than crack/cocaine, which though I have never used it, sounds like the most addicting thing imaginable, short of a psychopath.

A psychopath works on his victim in the exact same way as a dangerous drug. The first experience is euphoric. After that, you reach a point of needing the drug just to ward off hellish pain, even though the hellish pain is the side effect of the drug. It's a vicious circle. I see it as a miracle when anyone breaks free. Blondie, I know that miracle is going to happen for you. I know it. Let yourself know it, too. Immerse yourself in that absolute knowing. It is going to happen.

Until it does, don't ever worry about disappointing us. We are here for you.

Hugs, kris

Blondie,

You don't owe anyone here an apology. You are doing the best you can to live with and accept an impossible situation. That is about the best way to describe the relationships and life situations that a P creates for everyone close to him.

All those feelings that you are having right now, all that he is putting you through, (and yes, it is him who is creating it), all of those feelings and the withdrawal, misery, elation, self blame, all of it, many if not all the folks here here went through the same feelings too. I did. Please don't punish yourself for it. You are where you need to be at this moment in order to learn what you need to learn. Even though you are re-engaging, you are doing so with greater awareness of how he operates and of the dynamics that are in place. The addiction to the P is so difficult to deal with, but when the time is right for you you will handle it in YOUR own way, and in YOUR own time.

One question, and you don't have to answer it, the p seems to have a whole set of conditions for you to meet in order to improve the relationship. Other than being more assertive, does he have any conditions for himself? And if he does, are they based on what you've expressed as your own needs? Are your needs considered, asked about, discussed or respected at all in this? It sounds as if as long as you "behave yourself" he will bestow upon you some minimal involvement.

Take care, and no matter what path you take, this forum exists for YOUR support and validation. There is no need to apologize to anyone. You are loved here, but no one here is your parent, so you don't have to worry about disappointing anyone here. This forum is about people who are at different stages in the same journey.

((((((((((((((((blondie))))))))))))))))))))))

-Leti

Leti,

In respnose to your question which I don't mind answering at all is....
He has promised that he will invite me up instead of me asking him all the time. He will ask me too. He has promised that he will no longer carry on about how guilty he feels "the next morning" after me spending the night with him. He said he feels guilty because he worries that I am going to become attached to him again and he said that he doesn't want anyone. But he won't do that anymore. You know he never ever used to feel guilty about it until about 2 months ago. I don't believe he feels guilty at all. I think he is just trying to make me think he cares about me and that he has high morals which he will never convince me of that. He asked me if I was okay with seeing him once every two weeks, would I be alright and not go into a deep depression or try to commit suicide. I, of course told him that I would never do that over him or anybody. I told him that I had no problem with that at all.

Now the truth is that I have a big problem with that but there is no way I am going to let him know that. If I did, then, he would know that I am suffering in between and he would feel so good and powerful. I will not give him that. I keep thinking that maybe with so much space between visits, I can distance myself from him emotionally and brake the hold. That is what I am striving for. I do know that I am going to keep my word and not call or go up for two weeks. I need to test him to see if that suffices him and makes him keep his word with me. If not, then I will be one step closer to realising that he wants me off balance at all times like my therapist says. He is going to make me hate him at this rate eventually.

Do you think that it throws him off when I agree with him about this? Doesn't he want me to be needing him all the time and suffering?

I have so many questions running through my head.

To anyone out there, what did your P do when you decided for sure you wanted out? Did they let you go or become wonderful to try to get you back?

Leti, thankyou for saying that I am where I need to be right now. I believe that to be true. It seems to end in stages with a P, never a quick decision that it is over with a P. Everyone seems to go back and try something different until they have exausted all possibilities. At least that it the way I see it.

Thankyou for your kind words, Leti

You and Kris and Laura and everyone here seem to be such wise, compassionate woman. Every hope I have that someday this will end and I will once again feel happiness in my life has come from all of you.

Thankyou, God bless you all!

))))hugs(((((

Blondie

To Anyone,

I seem to be the only one who is still with their P. Everyone else has left theirs. At least on this site anyway. That is why I feel so embarassed about this whole situation. I feel all alone that way. Once you realise what they are and have learned about this horror, common sense would make you run as fast as you can. I don't seem to have any common sense. This makes me feel so stupid and low.

Blondie

blondie, It's so true that you are where you need to be right now. Leaving a psychopath is a process. For the victim, it's human bondage. It is an enormous life challenge to free oneself of a human bondage, which is, in every case, an evil power seeking to claim a human soul. Although I am sure you can't quite feel it right now, you are developing the strength to free yourself. When your strength is sufficiently developed, you will go free. I want to share a couple of paragraphs from my book:

"In the broader view of things, my relationship with Jack was continually forcing me to develop the capacity of discernment between reality and appearance, or between good and evil. I had to develop this in order to survive, to not fall prey to the chaos and confusion, and lose contact with reality, fall into spiritual darkness. I was not unifrormly successful. When you wrestle with the devil, you don't come away from it unscathed. In some ways, my soul is much darker than it was twenty-five years ago. But my ability to distinguish between good and evil is much keener. The very thing in me that allowed for Jack's manipulation was the thing that would grow strong enough to penetrate his mask, and expose his face to the light of day. Thus my strengths and weaknesses derive from the same source. As do everyone's.

My purpose in saying these things is to impart a little dignity to victims of abuse. We don't choose it, except in the higher wisdom of our spirit choosing what is needed for the development of our soul. We don't enjoy our suffering. Many times, I would have gratefully died to end the pain. But we are uniquely created and molded by our experiences in such a way that we are unable to free ourselves from our bondage until we have developed the specific spiritual strength that will enable us to go free. There is higher purpose and dignity in the lowest cesspool of human experience. Even in Jack's experience. I don't want to take that away from him. Nor do I want to give him too much, so I will leave it at that."

I am sure it throws him off every time one of his manipulations does not send you spinning off into hell. But try not to get into a power struggl with him. He will win. If you want to practice not reacting as he hopes, do it with the purpose of strengthening your self, growing your power and your immunity to manipulation.

After I left my husband, he pulled the most powerful manipulation he could with me. Had I not been absolutely finished with him, had there been one shred of hope left in my heart, it would have worked. He told me that he was in so much pain, he could not even get out of bed. He had gone to a church, he said, and thrown himself on the mercy of the pastor, was being counseled by this minister. In the counseling, he said, he had finally felt his heart, he had felt all the pain he had caused me and our children, and the pain was so great it nearly killed him off. After telling me this, he began to cry and tell me how sorry he was, over and over. He told me how pure my heart was, how wonderful I was, how blessed he had been to have me as his wife. He thanked me for all the years I had given him, blah de blah de blah. I am sure he expected to break down sobbing, and we would wind up agreeing to try it, again. It didn't happen. The next time I saw him, I asked if he was still feeling his heart. He looked at me pissed off, and said, no, that had stopped the next day. It galled him that he had humbled himself and not got the rabbit in his trap. He wanted to take it back.

God bless you, too.

kris

Blondie, Common sense is a useless commodity when trying to escape a psychopath. People know that smoking will kill them, too, but they still smoke.

You will be able to leave when you are strong enough to resist the pull towards him.

Right now, we have mostly ex victims on the forum. If you go back to crimenews and read the old posts, you will hear alot of people discussing the agony of being with a psychopath, including me. I was still with mine through summer 2001.

You are not alone.

Hi Laura,

I can relate to what you posted so very well and your verse really made me reflect and think about the stupid thing I did with the p---forgive! Why? Because I believed the Mask and felt I could heal the lost soul. Yes, it is almost impossible to get away and I think it is the emotional hold as well as the physical.
I logically know that the emotional hold is a mask as I posted another thread, "The Mask of the Psychopath."

I think I know why you care even after you know logically and your friends tell you all the rotten things he has done. I think it is because we want with all our heart, the MASK to be real, and it isn't. We are grieving an illusion and it is so difficult to work through.

I don't want to believe he is a psychopath, but the very least a narcissist, because he held the responsible job for years and is not dependent on anyone for support. I have read that there are psychopaths who do hold responsible positions. For my own sanity, I have to keep thinking of the rotten things, not the illusion that he created for me to get what he wanted.

I would call his wife, Laura, IF she would believe me and not acuse me of wanting him for myself or some other motive. Then, I think about if she told him and he would accuse me. Then, it is repercussion time with him spreading lies about me as me the scorned woman, making advances at him, damaging my credibility and even breaking up a relationship that I am trying to repair, which happened partly because of the p. I am not holding myself "blameless" as I should have known better, and me Pollyanna believed every lieing word in the beginning.

So, yes, in another way it is impossible to get away, psychologically and with my conscience in tact, as I truly believe the truth needs to be told about him and what to do about it? Beenthere

Kris,

Your replies to me are more helpful than you will ever imagine. You are so wise and insightful and seem to be reaching my subconscience of understanding.

Now I want to tell you what I think might be possible. Please give me your opinion on this.

When we broke up the first time because I was too emotional, we also were working together back then too as well as now. You probably remember my story. Well, I was finding things out about him afterward concerning the woman who he was involved with before me who also worked there too. She had quit by then but she had told some of our co-workers about her secret relationship with him which he denied. So I was questioning him and he was mad. Well, I find out it was all true and was so devastated and talked to some of my close friends at work about everything that happened during our relationship including the abuse and the lies and the deceit. I was so devastated to lose him and I needed some insight as to why a man who loved me so much and wanted to marry me and could just walk away in a heartbeat because I creid some times when he hurt me. So he went around telling people that I was crazy and a lot of lies about me. Well, because they knew me and I have a lot of friends there and he has none, he didn't get very far and they all beleived me. Plus he talks to no one so they think there was something wrong with him anyway, even before i came along.

What I am getting at is could it be possible that he came back to me to hook me again and do this all over again as some sort of revenge or payback because they sided with me and didn't beleive his stories? Something like "I will fix her good for being well liked and uncovering my mask for everyone to see. This time I will detroy her." Is revenge a good possibility with these P's.

While I am still here I just want you to know that today he told me that he got a blocked phone call on his phone yesterday and he was going to change his number. I knew he was trying to get a rise out of me. So I would think that I couldn't call him anymore so I told him that I thought that was good idea if it made him feel better. As soon as I said that he said he couldn't afford to do it. I am not letting him get any reaction from me at all. But I am sure there is more to come and I am prepared.

Anyway, thanks again Kris for your help. The process is continuing, I can feel it inside.

)))hugs(((

Blondie

Blondie, Yes, I think revenge is a likely motive for drawing you back in. I do not know how aware psychopaths are of their motives. As I became very aware of the operation of my psychopath husband, the realization of his cleverness, his ability to pull off lengthy manipulations involving days, weeks, many characters, plot twists and subplots, flawless acting, and horrifying deceit, all to get me good, then start on the next one...led me to believe that he had a profound self awareness, an awareness far beyond the normal human being. This is actually not true. I think the psychopath is a paradox when it comes to awareness. I think he CHANNELS an omniscient intelligence (an evil one), and that he is only hazily aware of motives for the things he does. I believe he is aware of the desire to wound and destroy, but that his behavior, moment by moment, is informed by Satan. And yet, I don't think the psychopath has any inkling of that, and is quite pleased with his cleverness, and thinks himself really something for being able to direct all players on his stage like puppets.

I can easily imagine your psychopath chewing on this festering rage over "what you did to him". When I was able to distance myself enough from what happened, in my last years with my husband, which were filled with a neverending stream of sadistic abuse from him, I traced the beginning of this end back to me shouting at him, "I want a divorce!" You would not believe the horrible things he did to me in our last 4 years. And I am certain it was all done because of those words I shouted at him in a moment of supreme frustration. After the first year of utter hell, I sort of did what you are doing, fell on my knees and promised to behave. After him torturing me beyond imagining for a solid year, his response was, "You have broken my heart. I don't know if I can forgive you." He didn't and he had only just begun to extract suffering from me for "what I had done to him".

I think your intutions are on target. I think he has drawn you back in to extract more suffering from you for "what you did to him".

That is great that you did not react to his manipulation about bocking calls on his phone. I think you are in a certain stage that is near the end. Once you begin to observe, like a scientist, all that is happening, you are close to out.

(((blondie)))

kris

Kris,

Thankyou so much for your reply. It seems that in this stage of the game, I am finding myself needing to be on this site every day. It's almost my survival kit and I seem to be getting this feeling inside that is what i would class as stubborness for lack of a better word. It's like this voice inside is saying "Don't let him play with you anymore, don't react, don't give him what he is striving to take from you, your pride." There was a time not so long ago when I would just do things like call or go up unexpected. I would tell myself that it doesn't matter if I looked "hooked" on him or if i am degading myself. I didn't care what I was doing to myself as long as I didn't have to suffer from the obsession. I wouldn't care how he treated me at all, even if I knew it was going to be bad, as long as I was with him. Sick eh?

Now something inside, and I can't explain it is saying that it does matter and I can't give in, I can't show him I care that much and it is saying "you sick bas---d", you will not know that you are affecting me because you will not win that part of me anymore".

The reason I think that this is revenge is because he keeps reminding me of all the humiliation he had to go through with people knowing what he did to me, and knowing about his sexual assault charge from years ago. Now he says it wasn't that kind of a charge at all but I know what he told me whether he denies telling me or not. He clearly denies any kind of abuse towards me and keeps saying his career is ruined. I hear this stuff constantly and also he wants me to tell everyone that he is a nice guy and never abused me or treated me badly. Then he can trust me again. Well, horsesh-t, as far as I am concerned. He did abuse me and treated me horrible and I said to him once "If you can't do the time, then don"t do the crime". Well, I am not going into work and trying to make him look like the nice guy because even if none of this had ever happened, it wouldn' change the fact of what people think of him and always have. They have come to that conclusion years ago before we got together just by being around him.

So however hard it is to try to look indiferent towards him and not react, I have this need in my gut to do it right now and that is just the way it is.

Blondie

Blondie, I still need to be on this site, almost every day, and I've been out close to a year. But I remember back to before I was out, and this site was water in the desert to me, a little trickle to a parched, cracked tongue.

I applaud the little voice inside you that feels "stubborn", that wants to refuse the sadistic s.o.b. his evil pleasure, at your expense. And believe me, I relate. I relate to everything you say. I think there is a progression, although I'm sure it varies among victims. I, too, went through periods when I knew I was debasing myself in order to soften the pain of my craving for the psychopath's love. The lowest point of degradation was in those last years. He was making me eat [censored] everyday for one crumb of his pseudo love. Most often, he didn't give me the crumb. He just forced to lick dung off his boots, then kicked me in the face.

For me, because I had been with him for decades, and had become utterly dependent, sick and unable to work, my inner landscape grew so bleak, I wanted to die. I prayed to die. But I do not believe in suicide, so since I didn't die, it was inevitable that a countering rage rose up inside me at what this horrible man was doing to me.

I started to write the story of my life with him. I think this is very helpful, as it weaves the pieces of your history into one whole cloth, and you can see it, altogether. Altogether, any story of a relationship with a psychopath, is a hideous thing to behold. If you do this, I guarantee he will become less attractive to you. Your story will tell you things you need to know, that have been hidden in the smoke and chaos created by the psychopath. When you speak from your heart, it tells you the truth. This truth stands in contrast to the vile stream of lies issuing from the psychopath's mouth.

Writing helps to bring into consciousness the things you know. But you are also doing that here, and that is good. The inner Blondie is becoming more aware and growing stronger, growing mad enough to not let him do it to you.

As you stand strong against the fierce winds he blows at you, keep trying to detach. You will probably feel at times that you haven't the strength to crawl across the floor, to get away from him, he will find words that hurt you so much, and hook you so completely. But, let me tell you, every time you do crawl away, and get away with your dignity intact, you will grow a piece of autonomy, a new strength of soul. Until finally, he can blow and blow, and he can't blow your house down.

I am so glad you have that need in your gut to not react to his manipulations. That need will lead you out.

kris

Blondie, I am cheering you on also, the progress you are making is great. Each step will lead you back to the real Blondie. You deserve the best life has to offer.

Di

Ok, I have been reading these posts for a little over a month now, and I have to start writing. Blondie - you definitely are not alone. I have been trying to stay away from a p for several years now and I still find myself believeing some of his stories. Until I started reading this forum I really didn't understand the whole psychopath phenomena... it certainly does make sense though now. I went to therapy after I threatened suicide and was Baker-Acted into a facility. I thought this guy was such a white night, but he ended up being the prince of darkness, just like EVERYONE has said in one way or another. This was a couple of years ago and my therapist kept telling me that the guy was a p, but I just kind of ignored him. Finally, after his moving in making me crazy, my kicking him out (or someone in my family kicking him out) went on for a year or two, I had to leave the area because my father was ill, well my father ended up dieing and I had to be away for months. Now during this time my p called me constantly whining that he needed me to come back and be with him, but I couldn't leave my mother - she was truly a basket case and I'm an only child, so I had to stay away. Well by the time I was getting ready to come back home this p kept calling wanting to know when I was going to marry him, well, I was pretty out of my mind with sadness over losing my Dad (he was my hero) and I just couldn't deal with the p and marriage so I told him I would have to talk to him about that later. So I finally come back home and the day after I get back a girl calls me and tells me she has married my p - a month a so before I came home! I was absolutely devastated! Then he was put in jail within the month for a year... I should have figured it out, but... "It is almost impossible to get away" so I went to visit him in jail. These guys are a real piece of work. He cried and carried on and told me how sorry he was and how he was going to have the marriage annulled so we could be together when he got out, well I guess I had a glimpse of sanity and for a while was totally over him. The year went on and I thought I was ok. Well he got out in March and called me and here I am again, wondering what went wrong. I started talking to him again - he never got out of the marriage, but swears he's trying to, but can't because he doesn't know where his wife is (oh yeah, she's old enough to be his daughter, in fact she is the same age as both of my daughters), but says he hasn't seen or heard from her since he was in jail. I'm so upset with myself that I can't stand it, but since I started reading these forums, I see that a)he HAS to be a p and b)I'm not the only one that these things have happened to. The biggest question here is, WHY after all of the heartache that he has put me through would I start talking to him again? Luckily he does not live in the area and I only see him for a couple of days every month or so - I saw him for the first time again on Memorial Day then again in June and lastly for 5 days at 4th of July. Unfortunately, every time I see him I fall a little more in love again - at least it was going that way until I found this site (which I think must have had some Divine intervention or something to keep me from going head over heals and wanting to follow him where ever he went)! Now I'm just massively CONFUSED and trying to keep myself from going crazy when he doesn't call every night and tells me some unbelieveable story. Any ideas, words of wisdom or general understanding would be SOOOO appreciated! Thanking you ALL in advance - Confused ps - see Blondie, it can always be worse...

Confused, What an appropriate name. A psychopath's victim is confused so often by his behavior that being confused becomes a chronic state of being. I have been editing the book I wrote about my 30-year marriage to one, and I have had to edit out several hundred "I was hurt and confused" phrases, can't be redundant, but since it was the truth of my experience, every 5 minutes, I've had to find alternative ways of saying it. I think that "hurt and confused" is so much a description of a psychopath's victim that it might possibly be an effective way of drawing a group of us together, by asking the question, "Are you chronically hurt and confused, in your relationship?"

I would add a third adjective, disempowered, but often victims do not recognize their disempowerment. They only recognize their pain and confusion. They are too confused to recognize that a big source of the pain and confusion is their disempowerment by the psychopath in their lives.

This man is disempowering you. He is disempowering you by not giving you the truth so that you can function within reality. He is disempowering you by telling you one thing, misleading your expectations, and doing another, i.e., telling you he wants to marry you, then marrying someone else, and telling you he still wants to marry you, but remaining married to someone else. He is disempowering you by hogging all the power, in the relationship, i.e., he's got you waiting for phone calls and visits, rather than the power to give and receive being set up in such a way that it flows continuously, in both directions.

The result of disempowerment is hurt and confusion. The abuser gets to play with and control his victim's emotions. The hurt results from him not playing fair. The confusion results from his baiting and switching, forever offering something nice, then yanking it away, and giving you a case of hives, in its place.

I am so glad you found us, Confused. There are lots more posts over at the Crimenews 2000 site, where this forum was located for a year or so. Those posts will soon be over here, but haven't been moved yet. You must read Dr. Hare's book, "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of The Psychopaths Among Us." It will clear up much of your confusion.

You will make it out. We are here to help.

kris

Dearest Confused,

Why, after all the heartache did I start talking to him again?

You have just asked the 64 million dollar question. I went back one year later,after being almost totally destroyed emotionally.

All I can tell you is what I have been taught by friends and therapists. An ADDICTION. We are addicted to them once we have been exposed to them through some kind of a "loving" relationship. They give us such a wonderful beginning and we try with every fibre of our body to get that back somehow. The beginning with a P is nothing like one could ever imagine. But once they take you down, you will go deeper than hell. And they WILL take you down. I guarantee it!

In a normal relationship, when two people break up, whether it be one or both that decide that, there is no game playing. It's done, it's over. But with a P, they shove you away, knowing full well, that at their beckon call they just have to push the right button (and they know that button without blinking an eye). Mind you, they won't do this till they have played with you long enough to get you hooked. Their instincts are phenominal. They know exactly when the hook is in full force, and so they can do whatever they want after that, knowing you are their emotional slave. Then let the games begin. They seem to know that their presence alone is electrifying to us.

Confused, it is all about POWER with them, and because they have the emotions of a robot, they don't give a rat's a-- how it affects us. We are just an object to be used and discarded. BUT, they don't discard us until we have either started to suspect something WEIRD, or kick up any kind of a stink that might unlock their dark side. I was told once to picture a chalkboard and how black it was because that is what they are inside, black.

You need to look deep inside yourself and decide if you are still at the point of walking away with a minimal amount of pain and if you are RUN LIKE HELL! Because if you don't, I can promise you that you
will experience the most horrendous kind of pain and heartache that no human being can imagine.

Remember, he married someone else. Is this the actions of someone who loves you and cries to be with you. Can you see him crying at the alter over you as he said " I do " to her? NO! This is the actions of a monster, a living, walking predator who sees something in you that will suit some kind of purpose for him for a while......

Try to think to yourself what love means to you. Would you do this to someone you loved? Would you do it to HIM?

Denial is one of the biggest enemies to us "victims" of a P. I have lived in denial for so long now, hoping he cared. After all, how can you look at someone right in the eye and swear that they mean so much to you.

A PSYCHOPATH, that's who, and they do it with the greatest ease imaginable. You know, a praying mantis, after mating will bite the head off the mate and kill it. After your Psychopath is done with you,
you will wish you were a praying mantis!

Think long and hard and read everything you can on this site and talk to everyone who will listen, friends, family, co-workers, therapist, anyone.

Talk to yourself too, ask yourself if this is the kind of life you would want. Love yourself, confused, love yourself. Give yourself the greatest gift possible. RUN...faster than the speed of light!

))))HUGS((((

Blondie

Blondie, I understand what you're saying and believe me there is part of me that wants to run like the wind, but it's as if my feet are cemented to the ground! It's just too bizarre, I don't know if I can put it into words... I just can't seem to let go. When I read you're post I felt so stupid, because I know I should not want to be with someone who so obviously doesn't care about me. Someone who would marry somebody else (that's so much younger than him - like almost 25 years!) and at the same time be calling me and telling me how much he loves me and then still married after promising to get out of it. It's just so stupid, but still the phone rings and I find myself, if not answering it right then, listening to the message and calling back. As far as talking to others, that's a big problem for me now. I pretty much wore the subject out when I was doing the whole suicidal thing, now no one in my family even knows I'm talking to him, let alone being with him when ever he comes into town. They would not take kindly to it if they thought I was even thinking about him. They think I'm "over" him... That's probably why I looked so hard until I found this site. Thank you all for listening and not rolling your eyes! I have been thinking long and hard and reading as much as I can and sometimes it just makes me more...confused... This whole situation is just so upsetting and confusing... I even understand the addiction probability, but I don't seem to be able to stop it. If I let it, it would consume my thoughts. That explains why I spend hours on the computer now reading posts here! Deep inside me I know that I have to walk away, but as I said before it's like I just can't move - at least not away... I guess I have answered your statement of how it would be better to walk away, I guess I am past that point... Believe me, I am ashamed to say it. I only wish I could figure out what it is about me that keeps HIM from not walking away. Any ideas? --confused

confused, can you name some specific reasons why you think this person is a Psychopath?

Thanks!
Di

Confused,

First of all, never feel stupid or ashamed about anything here. Please forgive me if I said anything to make you feel that way at all. I certainly never meant it that way. I too have felt the same way but the wonderful people here have helped me to erase that emotion in a hurry. Again, i am sorry.

I know the tug of war going on in your head and heart right now. You know why I know it? It is because I still live in it too. Thank god for the angels on this site. They showed me that this is a process, not something that is over quickly. It seems to go in stages and takes time, different lengths of time for different people.

What I am doing is starting with baby steps. My first one being to not react to anything he says and boy was I tested today.

I went back to work after being off sick for two days and as soon as he saw mw he told me he was worried sick about me. I said very calmly that if he was that sick, then he would of called to see how I am. He said he doesn't call anyone anymore. I said fine that I was glad he didn't call because I prefer him not to anyway but not to give me his crap about being so worried. Well he went on and on about thinking that I was losing it over him and he was sick with worry. I said calmly, "I can assure you that I will never lose it over you and that I am doing great, even better than I have in a long time" Dead Silence. Then in the afternoon, he told me that he was going to start taking break at a different time to make his afternoon go shorter. Well, that of course was supposed to scare me into thinking that he didn't want to have break with me anymore.So I said that sounded like a good idea. I said that it would make his day go faster and that I didn't blame him one bit for wanting to go at a different time. I told him that I would do that too if I were him. He got up and walked away leaving Blondie feeling a foot taller! This is one of my baby steps.

So Confused, you have to try to do what is best for you. It takes time, a lot of time and sometimes we slip but that is okay. We are not perfect and we are dealing with one, if not the most, difficult battle of our lives. I might slip and go back up there. I don't know. All I know is that for me, I am getting up in the morning and saying "today I will not react!" I don't even think about tomorrow or the next day. One day at a time for me, that's all I can handle right now. Tonight I am going through a bad withdrawal because of seeing him at work today but as hard as it was, I did not call. I paced, I read, I came on this site but I did not call. To be honest, I can hardly believe it myself. A month ago I would have no matter what.

Is there a therapist you could talk to, a clergyman you trust, a friend, a crisis centre, sometimes they have councilling, a councilling at a woman's shelter. I go to therapy through the mental health unit in my area.

Also read that book called Without Conscience by Dr, Robert Hare, or Bad Boys, Bad Men by Donald Black. I was lent a book by my cousin a few days ago. It is called The Other Side and Back by Sylvia Browne. She is a world famous Psychic. In that book she donates a whole chapter to sociopaths. The chapter is called The Dark Side -Protecting Ourselves From The Evil Around Us, great chapter! You can probably get these books at your local library or they will order them in for you.

Please try to remember that even though he doesn't want to walk away right now, he WILL when he has no more uses for you. When you start to see through the mask of his and start questioning him or arguing with him or not following "Orders". Obviously, you are a kind, sweet, caring, loving woman. Just the kind they seek to destroy. The perfect target. You are probably sensitive, forgiving, understanding, helpful, compassionate, which make you perfect for him. He knows you better than you know yourself. And if you throw in "sympathic towards him"---WOW, then he has struck gold. That is why he wants you so much. You have all the wonderful qualities a woman can offer a man and he will use them until he wears you down so much that you can't function anymore. That is when he will look for "fresh meat". His job is done, his power is reinforced and you are detroyed. That about wraps up the life of a psychopath. Almost makes you want to throw up thinking about that kind of evil walking the earth.

But for now, don't feel ashamed, don't feel embarrassed and definetily don't feel crazy. What you are going through has happened to each and every one of us here. Some have gotten out, some of us haven't yet. Just have faith, that we you will in your own time, at your own pace. You will get away, sooner or later. That I guartantee. When YOU are ready.

Keep reading and keep writing here. Beleive me, it is one of the best therapies you will find.

))))hugs to you from me((((

Blondie

Confused,

I am sorry to hear about the hellish torment you've been through and that continues to plague you. I'm glad you found this site too. I didn't find it until after I finally quit talking to my p. It's only been a year since I saw him last. I only stopped talking to him four months ago. I still think about him everyday, and at times when I catch myself feeling like my old happy self again, I almost think I'm still with him. The illusion they create with lies give you such hope that maybe an ounce of it might be true, you'd have a better relationship than most of the other people you know. That is very sad.

Their 'stare', the looks, the lies, all I fell for it all. I worry constantly I am one of those histronic women Dr. Hare mentions in his book. Today I read that you could tell by looking at your hands. Why do I have to think it's my fault. I did nothing but love him unconditionally without protecting myself as I'm sure you must have done with your p. He destroyed my entire world and I still continued to talk to him, in secret with some weird hope. I'm a smart women, as I'm sure you are. It is puzzling beyond anyone's imagination.

My p always liked the movie Michael with John Travolta. Remember when he mesmerized all the women in the movie. My p was like that. Maybe even by his believing he was like that made it so. But still how can women do that to each other. My p lied about me to everyone. He destroyed my personal and profesional reputation. I knew it, and I know it now. But if he walked in the room this minute my heart would skip a beat. Why? He loathes me and I know it. Why do I feel that way? Why have we all experienced this traumatic permanently life altering ordeal. Someone once said to me the p's do it because they think you deserve it. I believe that to a degree. That is how they can live without conscience. But they can feign one too. When it's convenient. When she has a big fat bank account and a 15 year old daughter. The are so many unsuspecting.

My p would ask someone to marry him in the first three weeks of meeting him. Most were wiser than me. I'm sure we all wish we could take it back.

What do we do from here? What do you think is the purpose in all this? What are we meant to learn?

Kris,

I've been away for a week and this post just resonates in my re-claimed soul.

I always felt like a commodity to my p. We used to joke about it even. He was cruel to the worst degree.

When are you publishing the book? I think I may have asked before, but I would encourage you too. Would you be willing to tell me if you talk about your experience to others.

I have become such an advocate and provocateur of the impact, prevalence and destructive annihilation of p's on their targets, that I've been asked to give talks and write articles. I'm a student too so most folks are unaware of my experience, but so many can relate to someone they know. Do you do the same beyond this site? You are so articulate and precise in your perception and insights?

I'd love to know how many registered users there are and how much of all the similarities fit all our p's.

Do you ask yourself what would it have taken for you to stop the relationship early on? I don't think I could have. He knew I loved him, more than I loved me. He was the one who would slither in the crack. I was just living in a vast denial of pathetic lies. It changes you after awhile, to something better and more refined in the long run. But you get pretty twisted in trying to get out of the grips of the coils.

It takes alot. I know others who didn't survive their p's. We are lucky to even be here. Many don't make it.

Thanks again for helping me. It hurts to know others have had to go through what we have, but it helps so much to read the words that validate and share the tragic burdens of the experience.

You bolster the best of us. Thanks Kris

Hi again confused. If you have your options set to receive email notification, the system will let you know, however you don't reply to the email but here at the forum.

What reading have you done on the subject of Pschopaths? Are there specific things that are making you suspect you are with a Psychopath?

Di

Cooper, You have so validated me, today, and I truly thank you for it.

I do not yet have an agent of publisher for my book. I am currently trying to whittle it down. Few agents want to take on an over-700-page book from an unpublished writer. It's getting shorter day by day.

I do not speak to groups. It is one of my goals, but I have a slew of illnesses, all the direct result of 30 years with a psychopath. One of these is Panic Disorder. I can barely even speak my name in a group of 3 or 4 people. That is getting better, but I am not to the point where I could speak before a group.

I am very interested in your experiences doing this. Perhaps we could exchange e-mail addresses through Dianne. I would LOVE to write articles. I have not had the time to put into finding the markets for them just yet. And if you have more requests than you can fulfill....:) This would help to generate interest in my book, which I am trying to get sold.

I would have had to be a different person, entirely, to have stopped my relationship early on. I was just 20 years old, had been severely abused as a child. The psychopath who, at first seemed to think I was a goddess, was God to me. I had never been treated like a princess, adored. I would have fallen on a sword for him. Yes, like you, I loved him more than I loved myself. And he knew that, and that was the sum of my value to him. He knew he could get alot of mileage out of that sort of emotional willingness to serve.

It definitely changes you. I have suspected all along that many, many victims do not survive. I would like to know more about your experiences, the victims you've met. But if you do survive, indeed, you become something better, more spiritually refined, more aware, stronger. It is the only way TO survive.

Thank YOU for helping me. This IS so painful, but also necessary, satisfying, important work we are all doing. We are building strength of the good kind that is capable of standing up to strength of the bad kind.

We must talk some more. kris

I need help!

He is testing me or trying to hurt me to the point where I am about to break. He told me not to call him or go up for two weeks. I have done this so far. It has been a week now. He said today, "What day is this?" I told him Friday. He asked me what kind of weather we are suppose to have this weekend. He said he had to pay his taxes tonight. Kept talking about Friday. He knows this is the night I usually go up. I didn't react at all. Hours later he started telling me how he is going to change his phone number and this time he said he was not going to give it out to nobody. I haven't called at all. I told him once again that he should call when he gets home and have it changed if that's what makes him comfortable. That's all I said, no other reaction.

When I went back inside to my job, I broke down, he wasn't there then of course. I felt hurt, and rejected. He made me promise not to call and so I haven't and I get this treatment all week. One painful conversation after another. I still don't react till he is out of sight. My co-worker who knows what is going on said that he is mad because I haven't called. She thinks he wants me to call so he can yell at me for calling and berate me. She said that I am showing him that I am in control and that pisses him off.

So I am dammed if I do and dammed if I don't. This is hurting me terribly. I didn't think this would happen when I was doing what he asked for by not calling. What is going on here? I feel like I am sinking lower and lower. Please help.

Blondie

Blondie, He's tightening your thumbscrews. And he will keep tightening and tightening until you cry. Don't cry, Blondie. Eventually, he will run out of things to take away from you. He still has next weekend. If he doesn't get a rise out of you with whatever he has left in his bag, he will take that away. Observe what he is doing. When it reaches the point that you can predict his next move before he makes it, you can see so clearly that his goal is your misery. That will make you ever more not want to give him his satisfaction. Why should you give someone what they want when what they want is your tears, your anguish, your desperation, your inability to be happy, to function, to focus?

If you have a girlfriend, maybe you should take yourselves out this weekend, and do some "boy" watching. Pretty yourself up, and go and at least see that you do have other options. You don't have to live like this.

As you wrest your power and control away from him, do things to give yourself an inkling of the power that is yours. Validate your attractiveness, your intelligence, all your qualities.

Start making a plan for what you are going to do on the day you are currently allowed to see him, in case he pulls that rug out from underneath you.

You can do this, Blondie. You are strong. I know it hurts. I know it does. But you are bigger than that hurt. I'll be thinking of you.

((Blondie))

kris

Well, I am one to talk. Sigh.

I've been involved in a minor drama with my psychopath husband.

I had a car problem, and called Wednesday evening, asking for his help. I had a long dream about him Thursday morning. It was very disturbing.

In the dream, he had invited a bunch of people over to my home for a party. I was living apart from him (as I am), and he had invited these people unbeknownst to me. He and they all showed up. I was okay with it, but a bit uncomfortable that my house wasn't clean. He came over to me, during the party, and took hold of my hands. He kind of swung me around, and held me by the waist, flirtatious stuff. In the dream, it dawned on me that he was choosing me, for his woman that night. I thought, well, I won't get involved, but this feels good. In the dream, the old feelings came back.

My dreams shift suddenly. In this one, the scene shifted, we were sitting outside, having a discussion. He had a hat pulled low so I could barely see his eyes (he does that). He was telling me that he had sex with teenage girls, there was nothing wrong with that, and he would not let me make him feel bad about it. He had his obstinate, disgusted-with-kris demeanor on, the "you will not control me" thing going on. And "I am right and you are wrong". I was, of course, arguing his points. But (gross) in the dream, I was feeling like the wrong one, like he always made me feel.

Then we were in a hotel room, lying on a bed, dressed, talking. An elderly couple came in. It was their room. We apologized for wandering into their room, the door was open kind of thing, started to clear out. J suddenly related what we were discussing, and asked the elderly woman her opinion. She said so sweetly, absolutely he was right, it was good for him (age 55) to have sex with teenaged girls, lovely, and he shouldn't let me make him feel bad. She looked at him with such approval it was like he was a charming little boy holding out a shiny apple.

Then we were walking outside, and I said, "I don't think her opinion is really representative", and J looked at me, disgustedly, and I thought, I'm wrong and he's right, but it feels wrong to me, and I guess I'm just wrong in my feelings, wrong to my core.

Then he came to fix my car last night. As he was leaving, he said, "I love you." I didn't respond, but it affected me.

Don't worry, anyone. I would never go back. But between my dream and that interaction, I have gone back, in my mind. I think the dream was an illustration of how it would be, how it was. Oh, he never admitted things like that (except when I caught him), but he was always trying to mess up my mind so much that I thought things he said and did that were clearly wrong were probably right, and the problem was me.

Maybe God sent the dream ahead of his words to me so that I would have this to chew on. It's an ongoing exercise, staying clear, staying strong.

kris

Kris,

Don't edit too much is all I can say. I have a huge file of all the things that still come to memory of things that did not make sense. That now knowing what I know and seeing things for what they were, I know why. I was such a fool. I remind myself how he made me feel and why i allowed it and why I stayed. It was such a contradiction, to how I see it now. I was walking around upright carrying on like I had this wonderful beautiful life, but he'd ripped me to shreds by in the first few weeks of being with him. It is even so painful to thind about the abyss of that life. It instantly puts a lump in my throat the size of Wyoming.

Have you tried to self publish at all? Yes I'd be interested in hearing more about it and I'd be glad to exchange emails through Diane. (I'll need to figure out how) My efforts thus far have been informal and small but people find it fascinating. I happen to be in a speaking club which is how it started and then through some research I was doing on a project other writing and sharing opportunities have come along. If someone doesn't start talking about this more and bringing it to the open in away that doesn't make it seems so scary, it will continue to go on and on. The brain research folks who analyze why p's do what they do, don't necessarily look at the impact of what they've done and to whom. Martin Luther said once something to the effect of "gradual change is not a good thing".

We all need to look afte ourr psychological safety as much as we do our physical safety.

Blondie,

Whatever it takes this time. Try as hard as you can not to call him. He will keep trying. He will leave you messages that are hurtful and are loving and everything in between. He will try and try and try. Then he will eventually stop. But as soon as you open up a crack of opportunity he'll be back. I haven't spoke to my p in 4 months. If I contacted him tomorrow. I know his patterns, I think he is remarried again (but he hasn't changed) Give him time and he'd be back trying to prey on my feelings. Drawing fresh blood with each new hurt. They don't care who calls who, or what is said it's the fact that you're hooked that drives them. They don't care what they do to you. Please whatever you do try as hard as you can. Do whatever it takes.....do just about anything. I know it is hard. Really hard and it will physically take all the strength you've got. But the sooner it stops entirely, the sooner you'll get better. I know that is not what I wanted to hear when I was going through it. Being with my p somehow used to be the only thing that brought me me comfort. I hoped maybe God would make him see the light and he'd be sorry. But I was fooling myself. I don't know if you feel this way. But if you can think of anything and I mean anything right this very minute that brings you comfort or even a little bit of joy. Go and do it right this minute. The only thing that will make him stop is if you stop. Please try. It is hard, but I have faith. If I did it, you can too. I believe you can. You are asking for help and we are pulling for you,. Do your best.....it will be ok. I'll remember you in my prayers.

C.

Please note that I can't facilitate any exchanges of emails. I am sure you can understand that it puts me in a difficult situation.

Di

We'll figure something out.

Thanks Diane.

Kris, thankyou for you quick reply.

How can I not cry Kris? This is the first time he is making me feel totally confused. But this is the first time that I have kept my word and not called. I always broke before. Oh God, I knew this would never work but I just wanted it to last a little longer.

Cooper, thankyou for your prayers. I somehow don't beleive that he will keep trying. You are right, I don't like hearing this and I had hoped that he could just stay the way he was 3 months or so ago. I don't ask for anything but a little time with him. I was hoping that eventually it would wear off for me and I could walk away without suffering. My P doesn't call me like the other P's on this site. I have to call him or maybe it is because he knows I will call first. My only joy in life is when I am with him. I feel peaceful, relaxed, at home. But he is killing what I feel and now I have this stubornness and won't call. I am trying so hard. Honest. I am scared to go to work on Monday. I don't know what to expect.

Tonight, I am going to the movies with my girlfriend. I don't want to but she insists that I should. Thankyou again for your support. I feel like this is coming to an end. Why does that hurt so bad.

Blondie

Blondie,

I know how much it hurts. I know the 'home' you refer to when you are with him. There isn't anything like it when it's right, but what it does to you isn't anything like home. It gets you so lost and far from home. I know you didn't want to hear it, but I know how that feels too. Not great. What do you think you'd be doing right now if you didn't have this hell to live through. What if you'd never met him? What would you be doing tonight to make yourself happy? What ever the good was in your relationship with him, YOU made it I am sure. YOU can do it again for yourself and with the right players next time. I know you can. Don't think he won't call you if you stop calling him. He will. Just be ready, change your number if you have to. It works.

What would totally make you laugh right now. Think about it and smile. You can do it. I know you can.

Blondie, Cry as much as you need to, but don't let Marquis de Sade see you crying.

I'm glad you're getting out for an evening.

He is the only joy in your life right now because he has captured your capacity for joy, hooked it into his magic universe in which he keeps souls in captivity and tortures them for pleasure.

What the current irrational circumstance can do for you is to stand as proof that there is nothing you could ever do, no line you could toe, no sacrifice you could make that would satsify him. That's not what his game is about. His game is about convincing you that you are his problem, you are making him sick, you are sick, sick, sick. The truth is the opposite. He is your problem, he is sick, he is making you sick, sick, sick. He needs someone else to be for him what he actually is, so that he doesn't have to be it. He needs a projection screen, a scapegaot, a vessel to hold his poison.

I promise you, Blondie, there is freedom, there is joy, there is sanity and peace of mind and the ability to feel love in your heart that doesn't cause you pain, beyond the psychopath.

I will not judge you. No one here will judge you. Whatever you do or don't do, don't feel ashamed or afraid to share. We are here for you.

((blondie))

kris

Kris, dreams are so powerful, the one you describe is so intensely full of meaning. It must keep you wondering what it all means. Some parts are obvious to you but as you ponder you must likely find different meanings and levels of understanding. Especially after seeing him.

One of the last nights I spent with my p. I dreamed we were in a place like a beautiful condo where we lived once. He was outside on the balcony and it was floor to ceiling windows. I was inside. I don't recall any other furniture in the room just the windows and the fact he was outside and I was in. Then a huge tidal wave came and all I could see was the wave crashing against the glass outside. The building was shaking like it was in an earthquake and as I struggle to get to the door I woke up.

It was a time when I hardly dreamed at all. I was caught in the back and forth of leaving for two years and all through that time I dreamed only 6 or 7 times. But they were so vivid I remember each one specifically and how strong the images were.

I actually dreamed about him again a few nights ago. I think I bump into him on the street. We are not together but I feel the tension in my body just like when I was with him. I feel that way too when I read the posts here. It all comes flooding back so easily.

How often do you see your p? How does it affect you?

Cooper, As you know, life with a psychopath is so action-packed (never a dull moment) that it was quite a feat to tell the story of 30 years with one in less than a set of encyclopedias. And my book is more than a story...the stories are used to tell the bigger story of how evil operates, how it looks and talks and does its work. I am attempting, with my editing, to say the things I say in fewer words.

I don't think self-publishing is for me. Self publish, self promote. Can't do that with panic disorder. It is a huge srike against me, already, that I have written under a pen name. In the current publishing climate, promotion is everything. Agents want the writer to submit a marketing plan, and tell how they are going to promote the book. Jeeez. Gimme a break. I write. I don't sell. I'm a damn good writer, and I have important insights to offer. I've bled buckets for those insights, and I wasn't studying marketing and practicing people skills, in the process. I was dying a soul death in a dark hole. If we are only going to publish people who could also emcee the Miss America pageant, we are going to become a poverty-stricken society.

Well, I would like to ask you one thing from your experiences...for now. I am interested in those victims of psychopaths who have not survived. I haven't met any yet because my life is very small, at this point. Have you met any, or been told stories of any...can you share anything of this?

kris

Kris, you life isn't small. Nobody's life is small in human dimension. And yes you are a very fine writer. There must be a solution.

As for your question. Because this is a public forum and because of my regard of how and who I know. I am comfortable in saying this. In the past six months when I fully faced the absolute certaintly that I was with a p. inadvertently, through other insights two situations/tragic stories have been brough to my attention where it clearly sounded like a p had something to do with lives lost. It's not a hunch the likeliehood in one instance is 99.9%. The p. has passed away since. And in the other case it was a close friend and her death was represented as something else, but the more I know. To me it had something to do with her husband p. It's more than a hunch. It's the checklists and observation of facts and things that dont' make sense.

So if in my small world of trying to get over my own p. these two tragic stories came to my knowledge and attention I am sure there are more. Other deaths that were attributed to something else, but ultimately caused by a p.

I almost died a few times because of situations I was in because of my own p. He didn't care, he wasn't sorry. He felt nothing for me expect the prospect of a large life insurance payout.

P.s are responsible for psychological injury. Yet they pay no penalty. They walk away totally free. Where I live you get fined $95 for throwing a McDonalds cup out the window of your car while you drive down the road. Yet a p. can visciously murder your soul and nothing happens to them.

Something is wrong with that. When people observe it happening to you, like you said to Blondie tonight, others judge you. They often side with the p. who makes it seem like you are the one who is sick when you're not. By standers have a responsibility too. We are our Brother's Keeper. And 'keep' is a pretty special word if you look it up in the dictionary. We are all responsible in doing something about a solution. Helping each other heal is one thing, education and awareness is another, we can't get rid of them all though. They are here among us. What is their purpose, evil has to exist? It does, if you believe in opposition in all things. Good and evil that is why they are here. To test the good? God disciplines those he loves. And we are to forgive. Not forget.

One day a few weeks ago I read something when I was reading about PTSD. It said "Sometimes the dragon wins, but not today." I think the saying had something to do with war, maybe Churchill said it. It doesn't matter, but I decided that day my p. dragon wasn't going to win anymore. I'm not bitter, and I am less broken everyday,and reinventing who I am/or was. I keep coming back to what do I do now. I have a couple of angels in my life that have supported me through it all, and have given me the opportunity and encouragement to do something about this. What is it? I'm still unsure. If you have any ideas let me know.

This is more than you asked, but I confess I'm a zealot when it comes to this topic.

K.

Well, it is now Saturday morning and I got through last night without screwing up. You know I go to bed with him on my mind, I wake up with him on my mind and I dream about him too. Is there no rest from this nightmare?

I wanted to just go up there this morning but I am fighting it. As this weekend goes on without a word from me, do you think that it is bothering him at all because I am not giving in? I hope so. I want him to suffer in some kind of way for what he has done to me. He says he doesn't call anyone anymore and it is so convincing, that is why I don't think he will. He keeps telling me that he doesn't want anyone, no relationships, period. I would be shocked if he called.

Somehow, I don't believe that he will change his number. Maybe, he just said that to make me want to call and find out. He knows that I can get his number from work if I really wanted to since we work together, so why bother saying that? He keeps telling me that no one will want me unless I try to control my temper and not get angry. He said that he wants me to prove to him that I can do that and then he wont be scared to have me up. Gee, I only get angry when he is mean or yells at me or says something hurtful. I am not someone who runs around with a chip on my shoulder. I never have this problem with anyone else. So I stay calm all week and he keeps saying things to make me feel rejected. It doesn't make sense to me. And you know if I tries to explain that to him he would say what he always says. "I don't mean anything by it, it's just the way I talk. How do you answer that?

You know for the last few months, he has been telling me to not come up as often. He says he needs to do some work around the house. Well, two weeks ago he told me not to come up cause he had a lot of yardwork to do. So I stayed home and on Monday I asked him how he made out with all the yardwork and he said that he didn't get any of it done. So I am thinking that maybe that was just an excuse to exercise some kind of power trip over me, like he just wanted to be in control or he knew it would be hard for me so he wanted me to suffer all weekend. He said that he can't handle having me up once a week but how in the heck did he handle it for the many months before when he was asking me to come up weekly?

I just need to try and understand all of this and also because sitting here writing to you guys and hearing what you have to say, reinforces my strength and control. It seems like the more I understand what he is doing, then it makes me mad and makes me feel more in control.

Kris, could you explain this sentence a little more to me. "He needs someone else to be for him what he actually is, so he doesn't have to be it."

Thankyou both, for helping me this weekend. I am looking forward to the day when the suffering ends and my life begins.

Blondie

Good Morning Blondie, it's a new day.

What are you doing today to keep busy, being preoccupied is so hard when you have a p consuming your brain. I still do it too, but it is subsiding. I wonder if he ever even thinks about me. But then I think who am I kidding. He never thought about me when we were together. LOL! They don't think about you, unless their source or adoration and love is shut off from somewhere else, then that's when they are like a target seeking missle desperately looking for a 'fix' anywhere they can get it Immediacy is their concern.

Coping with the feelings you have now is all you can do. Just be as good to yourself as you can. When I first tried to leave my p. I started running. Blindly to burn up the rage, sometimes up to 8 miles a day. After a few months I was in the best shape of my life. Physically I'd never been in any better condition. I was so focused on my anger, confusion and trying to figure things out. I hardly felt it was like exercise. If you are inclined to do that then try something else rigourous. I had to push myself for the first few days and then it turned into my 'fix'. I needed it to cope, but it was healthy and it helped.

God's not going to let you fall, make the best choices for you. It will all work out. Trust in that.

C.

These are direct quotes from Dr. Hare's book, "Without Conscience"

"Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate, and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations, and empty wallets. Completely lacking in conscience and feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."

"To a large extent, the personalities of psychopaths are "carved in stone." There is little likelihood that anything you do will produce fundamental changes in how they see themselves or others. They may promise to change and may even show short-term improvements in their behavior, but in most cases you will face years of disappointment if you believe that permanent changes for the better have occurred. Although some psychopaths do "mellow" a bit with age, and as a consequence become somewhat easier to live with, in most cases they remain what they have always been."

"The psychopath may succeed in shattering your self-confidence and may convince you and your friends that you are unworthy of his or her time or even that you are "losing it." The more you give in, the more you will be taken advantage of by the psychopath's insatiable appetite for power and control. Rather than make fruitless attempts to adapt to a hopeless situation, usually by giving in, accepting your lot in life, or losing your self identity, it may be better to recognize that your emotional and physical survival requires that you take charge of your life. This can be a tricky move - even a dangerous one - and it requires good professional advice, both clinical and legal."

I joined this forum in January of this year after many months of reading and not posting. As I have shared here before, there were two psychopaths in my life, my father, and a former boyfriend. The second psychopath nearly destroyed me, and I was left with a broken heart, PTSD, fear, confusion, lower self esteem, and very little ability to function.

I did not realize my boyfriend was a psychopath until he was diagnosed as such by my therapist. Many times after I left I wanted to go back to him. I felt such terrible grief and longing and many times I came close to calling him. I didn't because by then I knew it was hopeless, psychopaths never change.

I am concerned about the content of some of the posts I see on our forum lately. Please understand, I care about this forum and all of you. I am concerned about those of you who are still in relationship with a psychopath. I don't have any magic answers. I know it is a heart breaking proposition to leave. But to stay with the psychopath is a chose that means living in hell on earth. The damage is ongoing to our souls, minds and bodies.

Cooper, I just read your post about keeping busy and running. I found it very inspiring as a great way to cope with the pain of the aftermath of Psychopathic relationship.

Dear neverthesame,

Thank you very much for posting these quotes by Dr. Hare. They are a direct reality check on what a psychopath is really about.

You wrote:
"I did not realize my boyfriend was a psychopath until he was diagnosed as such by my therapist. Many times after I left I wanted to go back to him. I felt such terrible grief and longing and many times I came close to calling him. I didn't because by then I knew it was hopeless, psychopaths never change."

The last part of the last sentence "I knew it was hopeless, psychopaths never change".....learning this truth was what finally gave me the will to to get out, distance myself completely, and put "OPERATION NO CONTACT" into action. That is the truth, plain and true. I like what Blondie brought up about taking "baby steps". That's how I worked on the no contact promise to myself. And each step built on the next until the steps got bigger and wider and it became easier to do. And it has been so very worth it!
I feel so good that we are supporting and validating each other on our road to recovery from the effects of the psychopath.

Thanks neverthesame for your honest and throughtful words.

smiling,
Cherie

Blondie, The only thing that matters is that you did it. It does not matter how hard it was, or how weak you feel now. Every time you succeed, you strengthen yourself in ways that are invisible, at first. You want to go to him. Keep fighting it. Success is the only thing that matters, at this stage.

I am sure it bothers him that you do not call. But it is not because he has feelings for you. It is because he is not getting the surge of power he gets from knowing that he commands your soul, that he owns you. I do not think he will call you. Psychopaths have no feelings to control so their control, in emotional situations, is perfect.

Blondie, he is a liar and a manipulator. He says he wants you to control your temper, and the truth is, he wants you to lose it. He is doing everything in his power to ensure that you do. In the last 4 years, my psychopath husband, characterized our problem as me "starting arguments". He said he couldn't take the arguments, anymore. Then he tortured me by not speaking to me for weeks at a time. If I spoke to him, he manipulated it into "an arguments" which "I had started" within one minute. 2 years before I left, he did not speaks to me for months at a time. At one point, when I approached him, saying, "J, we have to talk," he screamed, "I can't take these arguemnts! I'm gonna kill myself! I can't take it anymore!" He had so manipulated the dynamic by then that me merely opening my mouth played to both of us that I was starting an arguemnt. But what about having your mate sitting in your home every night, not speaking to you, and you not allowed to speak to him? That's not abusive, oh no, not abusive at all. I was the bad one. Your psychopath is doing the same thing to you. He is provoking you to hurt and to anger. Then pointing an accusing finger at you when his ploy succeeds.

Everything he does with you is exercising a power trip over you. A continually disempowered person grows weaker, cries, like a baby who cannot fulfill its own needs. She cannot because the abuser is making sure she cannot.

"He needs someone else to be for him what he actually is, so he doesn't have to be it."

He is filled with hatred, rage, spiritual darkness. The light of his soul is put out. There is no one home inside of him. I think a psychopath experiences his reality, when he is alone, as intolerable. He needs someone to serve as the receptacle for all the rage and ugliness inside him. This is what close relationships are for. Sam Vaknin, in his book, "Malignant Narcissism", makes the statement, "You become me, and I become you." Narcisissism is at the root of psychopathy. The psychopath, in a close relationship, seeks a victim to be his scapegaot. He makes her into his invention, into himself, by applying torture to her soul, attempting to put out her light, like his light is put out. Simultaneously, he steals her virtues and claims them as his own. He learns to emulate her good qualities by studying her. Gradually, he makes himself into her, while destroying her so that she becomes the wasteland that is him.

Stay strong, Blondie.

Hugs, kris

Blondie, Here is a little snapshot illustration of "I become you and you become me."

When I met him, I had no affinity for alcohol or drugs. He smoked grass everyday, all day. In 1972, that wasn't necessarily considered a bad thing. 1984 was the year I fell apart, lost my health, and alot of other things. I used alcohol imtermittently to cope after that. I just didn't have the strength inside me anymore. Although I only ever drank a few times a week, and psychopath smoked weed everyday, he ridiculed my drinking and made me deeply, deeply ashamed of it: One of his favorite things was to take my bottle of wine, or beer, and run away with it, play keep away, hold it behind his back, up over his head, while berating me, as a drunk. Since I left him, my drinking is subsiding to a fairly normal level (getting there). Psychopath has begun to spend seven nights a week in a bar. Even when he came here the other day, he was full of beer, and announced upon his arrival that he was in a hurry to get back to the bar.

Well, isn't this special? I think he can't bear the black hole that is him. I couldn't either, and when he was making me into him, I needed alcohol to cope, too. Now, let him do his own drinking.

Blondie, I am concerned about any of our members when they are in a current relationship with a Psychopath. It is my uneducated guess that this is a potentially dangerous situation to be in. A person without a conscience is capable of anything, and by anything that includes great bodily harm or even murder.

Blondie,

Diane is right, my sister used to tell me how much they used to worry when I would go back to my p. It must have been awful for my family to watch me. They knew how much I loved him and yet things between us we so confusing. I was hypervigilant looking for any little inkling of proof that he might actually care about me so I could justify why I wanted to go back.

Towards the end, when I was still at home one night he was denying an affair he was having with a woman half his age. We weren't even arguing and HE called 911. I spoke with the officers and they said they had to come to the house. I offered them coffee and I joked with them when they arrived, definitely not their typical call I'm sure. (I should have called them so many times before, just for even the threats he'd made.)

After that I left for a week or so then I went back again (long story) I'd only been there for a few hours and I discovered he was still involved with her. (he'd never stopped seeing her of course) By that time he'd been doing all kinds of numbers on me and I was in a state of shock and disbelief that he was telling me one thing over the phone, "I love you and I never did anything". (he still swears it to this day I'm sure.) I was so hurt. What he had been telling everyone was that I had been having an affair or I was schizophrenic, manic depressive or something like that. (which I also later found out) All of which were untrue of course. Anyway that night I went back I called his girlfriend and she hung up. I was so angry I threw the phone in the fireplace. Well someone called the police. I think it was her (because he'd told her all the lies about me). Anyway the police arrived again that night. He had gone to the neighbor's supposedly to get the neighbor to talk to me, a big fat lie, he went to call her. The police arrived and told me I had to leave and that he didn't even want to talk to me. I couldn't believe it. Minutes before he had been begging me to get back together with him. Just before I left he came in the house and he wouldn't even look at me. He sat there pretending to be distraught looking into his hands. I have never felt so alone in all my life. So humiliated that 'WHAT' I'd been married to and given my whole life to, wouldn't even look at me in my own home, in front of other people.

I left without incident of course. (I have no criminal background or record, I'm more the girl-next-door cheerleader type) I Booked a flight for the next morning and stayed at a hotel. He didn't try to call me at all that night, he went to her I know.

In the morning while I checked in at the airport, it started again. He called me relentlessly wanting me to come back, telling me to come back and how much he loved me. He must have struck out with her and I was the bottom of the barrel, again. I got on the plane and left scarred from an event that I'll never forget. Plus I risked potentially having a criminal record because of him and he's the one who should be wearing stripes.

Diane is right Blondie, they are capable of anything. He didn't hurt me, or kill me physically, but what he did to my soul by doing what he did, telling lies about me, and not telling the truth or even acknowledging me, was something I could not bear ever again.

Once I got back to stay with my family, he trashed me to everyone we knew, even worse than he'd been doing for the five years we'd been married. I don't know exactly what was said, but the gist I knew. He was the hero I was the sick one. The shock rocked my world. My feelings of longing for him didn't die they almost seemed to grow stronger, because he'd ripped my entire network of support out from under me, by destroying my reputation. A few months before I'd left my job and then of course I left the community where I lived with him. His lies are now legend. Plus he called everyone we knew where we used to live a few thousand miles away, and you know how the grapevine works. My work life and personal life were seamless and I am very open and transparent. I could no longer trust anyone. Anyone who called me mostly wanted to get more info, and didn't care about me. He talked to my family pretending to care about me too, and they could see me sad, hurt and crying and some of them believed him. For my own sake, I stopped talking to anyone and found a beautiful spot on a beach to live for awhile. I felt alienated, isolated and broken hearted to the worst degree.

Blondie, this is another tip for you...If I would have left RIGHT THEN, and I would have put integrity as the priority and focus of my life I would have saved myself alot of pain, money and time. In the end it took all I had of all three to get away from him.

I didn't know he was a p then. I just felt like I'd lost everything. I'd had a six figure salary, lots of long time friends (or supposed friends), I lived in beautiful homes that I had created, etc. etc. etc. But just like it says in the Bible it was a house built on sand, not rock.

To look at it now, what I REALLY did was start to gain everything back. "Every baby step away from a p, is a baby step back to who you were."

The trouble with my situation was that no one was missing me or looking for me. I'd been very successful, and I'd never needed others for help and those I cared about always relied on me. I was very much alone for a long time. Not that I wasn't doing things and keeping busy, but I was alone in my heart and in my head. He was my only connection to my former life that I could count on to be the same. He'd turned everyone else against me. At times I thought God thought he was all I deserved. I worked hard, I've tried to do the right things. But what I wasn't doing was thinking I deserved better than a life with a p. I needed to miss ME before anyone else could. I'd got along well enough for years without looking for ME.

This awareness happened to me at a time when I had the resources and time to spend thinking about, understanding, and accepting it. It was a blessing for which I will be forever grateful. But Hell's Bell's Eunice it sure as heck hasn't been easy! It's still not 100% clear, but I can tell you this.....Along the way I went back, and back, and back, and back. I'd tell myself "just this one last time, until I can get over him". I'm a strong person and I know it. But I was kidding myself. The trouble was I wasn't getting over him at all.

I still felt the same about him and THAT was starting to drive me NUTS! How could I feel anything, after all he had done. (I have thousands of heartbreaking stories I could tell.) What was it that made me do it?

What I've figured out is I loved my life because of the way he, the p, made me feel. If I can have that life as an illusion with the devil's brother, the p, then why can't I have it in reality? There is no reason why I can't. So that's where I am finally, trying to recreate that life with the right components and the right purpose.

I guess I just told a bunch of my story. And to think this morning I was going to drop out of doing this. I'm taking a risk sharing this in a public forum, (for some reason people always know people I know.) But if this helps even one of you to manage a bit better to get through a day without a p. then I'll keep doing it.

I didn't have anyone who understood two years ago nor do I still. And I don't personally know anyone who talks about it. It would have helped me when I first started to try to leave, if I'd had some encouragement or a clearer frame of reference. So here's a bit of my truth for what its worth.

C.

Cooper, Please stick around. We all need each other. kris

Kris,

I am committed to doing whatever I can. Right now this is the only place on the planet I know that even does this. There are other forums, but they include personality disorders that don't apply here.

This is the first on line group I've participated in. Anonimity in my life is not my strong suit. I'm not important or famous, it's just my luck is always that someone I know will be here and know it's me.

You all must feel the same. There really aren't all that many of us posting and I wonder about those that aren't as regular now as they were a month ago. Where are they?

Also I wonder what happened to Opera Lover to get deleted? These are administrative concerns I know Diane can answer. But at the same time, p's can come here, my p's girlfriends can come here, my friends can come here....but really does it matter? No, if they know it's me in REAL life they know my heart and my intent has always been the same. I truly did lose ALL I had and was. Once that happens, fear or anxiety over anything else goes out the window, with the exception of being alone forever.

I've always been independent, and oftentimes prefer to do things alone. Yet to be without community or connectedness for the rest of my life would kill me as much as if I'd stayed with my p. I'm a social cat. Yet right now I have to be alone to write, to ponder, to think, to plan, and to be alone some more. I miss the days of my whirlwind social life with him, that I created. He still has it with someone else and I have to admit it pisses me off. In all my egalitarian espousing comments.....It bugs me. Nothing changes in a p's life. They keep going, and going, and going, just like an Energizer Bunny. I know he is the same and likely worse. But still everyone rallies around him to be sure he is having a good time. The 'everyone' I refer to I don't want to be around....but I resent having to start from scratch and he gets ratcheted up the line because of what happened. He is living in a prestigious neighborhood married to an unsuspecting (I'm sure) ad exec. He hasn't changed. His old antics are still there, she just has no clue about the abyss she stepped into. But based on what he has told her about me, she believes lies about me without even thinking or knowing my side.

Obviously I still have reason to heal and grow. That's why I need to be here. I've already lost everything once and I survived. I can keep going. I need to be here right now, but I also need to do more than this. My committment isn't wavering. I just want to be sure we are not taken advantage of and hurt more than we are now. We are exposed here, and in that I am sure must agree. Hopefully, Diane won't delete this because we do need to be careful. You know it too. You are still vulnerable and still see your p. I worry for you.

Since you've been here, what else has been discussed about this?

Sincerely,

C.

Cooper, As a forum, we've been through the gamut. We are as safe here as it is possible to be. I should be in bed, and I am going to talk some more tomorrow about safety, mostly the kind we are struggling to feel inside. kris

It's likely later where you are than where I am. And today I guess I needed to vent. Next week approaches the two year anniversary of when I first strategically left my p. I'm trying to measure I've far I've come or how far I haven't.

Sometimes late at night I just wonder 'til the cows come home. "How did this happen to ME?"

No one would have ever expected it? Was it like that for you? You can tell me tomorrow.

Good Night.

C.

PS I don't want to appear ungrateful if someone I know now is reading this. I live in one of the most beautiful places on earth with someone who cares about me more than words can often say. I want for nothing except direction from here......? I have a great and perfect life compared to most, I know. But I know the truth and it is an agitator in my new bionic soul.

Maybe tomorrow I'll figure out how to ausage it.

Hi Cooper,

This forum has been a godsend to me. And to many others. I think it is unique. It's a place to vent, and a source of support and validation, for victims of psychopaths. But I realized, in the early days, that something more was talking place: That, by sharing our experiences, we were, everyday, adding to what is understood about psychopathy. I truly believe that the victim experience is definitive. I think it has the potential to define psychopathy in greater nuance and detail than has ever been possible, or could ever be possible, through other means. Researchers have available to them institutionalized psychopaths, and they can study them through case history, and assessment, or interview, but psychopaths are liars and manipulators, so getting an accurate view is a spotty prospect. It is well known that psychopaths easily bamboozle many therapists, so their skills at hoodwinking professionals (or anyone) are impressive.

Those of us who have lived with them, intimately, and have come out of the experience, able to think and speak, have a wealth of insight that no one else is in a position to have achieved. We have learned about psychopaths, what they are, how they operate, how they deceive, manipulate and destroy their victims, by from a direct perspective. We are they clay, and they are the clay workers. It's a situation of: If the clay could speak, what would it say. Really, only the clay really knows the truth. I remember reading something (I believe in Hare) to the effect that the victims can't say what happened because they are too destroyed by their experience. Those of us who come to this forum are exceptions. I suspect we are exceptional. I suspect that most of the victims can't say what happened.

Another thing I see happening is that we are not only helping to define psychopathy, but I think we are beginning to develop a fledgling body of knowledge about surviving the psychopath experience. I think this knowledge will one day exist, be available, and that it will have started here, where survivors have shared their survival wisdom.

You feel vulnerable that people who know you will come here and recognize you. I think most people feel this way.

It's a little different for me. I kind of have nothing to hide. I suppose because my psychopath experience was my entire adult life, and closed off all my other life options by destroying my health, and ending relationships connected to my former life, I feel deep inside that I have been led to do this work, elucidate the psychopath experience, discuss principles of good and evil. I am committed. So I do not care if anyone recognizes me here. This is who I am. I do worry about sabotage, but I face the possibility of that everywhere, everyday, anyway (This statement may not be understood. It refers to a situation of evil which continues to impact my life.)

I think you are saying that you worry about inviting more evil into your life by confronting evil on a public forum. My experience has been that eiher I confront evil, face to face, or it sticks its pitchfork in my back, everyday, and I can try to ignore this, but it doesn't work very well. When people reach a certain level of spiritual consciousness, working consciously with forces of good and evil is inevitable. And I do believe that those who have the psychopath experience are being nudged to a new level of spiritual consciousness.

I do not know about the adminstration's decisions, except that their goal is to produce a very pure forum, in which psychopathy is discussed in a serious and responsible way, not confused. And that they want to provide a place of support and validation to victims of psychopaths, only psychopaths, not mere mean, insensitve cads.

We do all so much need community, and in very profound ways, our psychopath experience has isolated us. This is one of the trye blessings of this forum. We have a community of sorts here. Not that this should be anyone's only community, but for me, at least, it fills a deep need. I can fill lesser ones elsewhere.

Ah, don't worry about me seeing the psychopath. I have so separated, in my mind and heart and soul. There may always be blips of feeling, but he is in my past. I cannot go backwards, again. I have come too far.

We have discussed safety, here, and our psychopaths, possibly, finding us here. We have agreed not to name names or post pictures of them. Also, the administration works hard to spot and screen out possible psychopaths. If anyone comes who is making you uncomfortable, or who you suspect of being him, contact them, and let them know.

Kris

Kris,

My first question is were you as good at writing, summarizing, organizing and sharing information before you were with your p? Thanks so much for the concise summary wrapping up my posts from last night.

The metaphor of the clay was perfect. And I agree with you when you REALLY live with a p and have surrendered to a life with them, that is a different stype of study.

I've read so much about them since I wonder how a therapist can be fooled. In a relatively short time a p always reveals themselves especially if they are in an advanced and more mature state. They almost like to talk about themselves in their own 'code'. You follow their choice of words for signals. They have this 'code' when they are referrring to 'P' activity. Maybe you know what I mean.

Anyway thank you for taking the time for the comprehensive reply. I don't think I really feel vulnerable in being recognized. I'm just sensitive to it because my p became involved with women who pretended to be friends with me and continued a relationship with him. They were almost as destructive as he was. Lonliness and envy drive women to do things almost as bad as P-ism. Women's inhumanity to each other is disgraceful at times.

In the big picture, I cannot change my past, I can only embrace it, be honest about it and move forward passionately about the lessons I've learned. P victims today find it a fairly solitary place kind of like someone who has a rare disease but is doens't go to the doctor about it because they know there is no medicine or treatment for what they have. So you wait for time to pass. You recover or you don't. It's that simple. And most people don't understand when you talk about the symptoms, they just think you turn into a hypochondriac.

Thanks again for the reply it's a keeper (and you know how I feel about that word).

C.

kris, Cooper, everyone,


Sometimes I feel so exposed and vulnerable when I post, other times I find it to be an empowering experience. I feel that as a survivor of psychopathic abuse that I am definitely "different" and in a way isolated from general humanity because I have uncommon knowledge, injury, and yes...,a deep sense of spiritual connection and sensitivity.

kris, you wrote such an important post....so thought provoking. Safety and exposure are issues for me. I will think about what you have said. One of the things I have gained is a need to protect myself. Look what happened when I left myself open before. I have a growing awareness of the unleashed evil that exists in the world now. Its a present danger. We are not protected from psychopaths. Nobody hardly even knows or believes about the truth of their presence. Or cares. The only protection I have is Spiritual Protection. So I try to remember that and stay close to it.

Cherie

Cooper, I relate very strongly to your story and experience.

I came to this forum and read many months before I posted. For a long time I was too scared I would be found out by my Psychopath or his family. Sometimes I still get fearful, but I still post and this forum has helped me immensely. My life is changing for the better. We have been away from our Psychopaths the same amount of time. For the first year I did little to help myself. It was all I could do to get through the day.

I too still wonder, "How did this ever happen to me???" I am not the type to be easily deceived. I am relatively good with boundaries. I am still amazed at the cunning, convincing, and deceptive nature of the Psychopath. I thank God I am alive, healthy and relatively emotionally intact.

Cooper, I also want to let you know that I am a forum administrator/moderator along with Cherie and Dianne who owns this forum. Please know that all decisions we reach about forum matters are done with great thought, careful concern and sometimes much discussion. We all care very much about this forum. Sometimes our decisions may not seem fair, but we try our best make good decisions for the benefit of all. We do try to resolve forum issues that arise privately via email and not on the forum itself. Please feel free to email me or any of us with concerns about the forum. My forum email address is neverthesame@cox.net We welcome your comments.

I am very glad you have joined us. Welcome to the forum, Cooper.

Cooper, I meant to talk more about our inner sense of safety. The way I feel about it is that there is not much that can be done to me that hasn't already been done. Short of killing me, it's all been done. I wasn't safe, as a child, either, so in my 50 years of life, I have never been safe. I long to become safer, in certain ways, finacially, for example. But, out of necessity, I have learned to live with danger and insecury, not flawlessly, but more tolerably than not. I think our only real safety is inner, is in residing, to the greatest extent that we can muster, in and out of truth, inner core. Another way of saying this is that (this is my belief and experience, anyway) God is our only true refuge. Our only real safety is spiritual. When we center ourselves in the true and the good, we draw on the only source more powerful than evil. I have to work at this centering. I work with a spiritual advisor, and I pray. There are times when I am living in fear, but those times, I know that powers of darkness are blocking the light. Oftentimes, those powers of darkness come to me from outside; sometimes they come from inside. But no matter where they come from, my only true safety comes from God.

I can tell you've come a long way since you left your psychopath. You have alot of strength built up within you.

You wonder how this could have happened to you. I think it can happen to anyone. Psychopaths are so very good at what they do. But maybe the experience comes to those who are seeking, in their soul, to grow in understanding of the forces of good and evil which shape human life.

I don't wonder how this happened to me. I seem to have born for this experience. I was shaped, by my birth to a personality-disordered mother, to deny my self, and serve the whims of a cruel, manipulative and lying master. I was learning before I ever met the psychopath about good and evil, deeply pondering, as a child. He took me in easily because he appeared as exactly my childish concept of "good", which was the opposite of my mother. And he kept me hooked easily because, in spite of my fledgling conscious understandings, I had been trained to doubt my perceptions of reality, of right and wrong, and to accept the responsibility for the wrong of others. This was on a subconscious level. My path was to bring these things into consciousness. This is exactly the modus operendi of evil, to reverse truth, to deceive through clever manipulation and false appearance. I believe my life's purpose has been to learn to recognize truth, and the guises of evil which mask it.

I think I am like you in that the truth is an agitator, in my soul, too. My life has made me this way. And your life has made you this way.

kris

Dear Cooper,

I really feel so sorry that you were betrayed in the way you describe by women who pretended to be your friends. (((Cooper))) I too have been been betrayed by people who I trusted to be loyal to me and am asounded at how much that has taken me down. I'm not bouncing back so quickly. For me its cumulative......one injury on top of another before the first has healed and on and on. This is one of the areas that I feel most helpless and powerless. I think I crave the isolation because in my fragile state I can't weather much of these crude powerplays. I'm sensitized...I've got an allergy. lol. Allergic to P's and psychic abuse. I'm seeking the antidote.

Blessings,
Cherie

Cooper, No, I wasn't as good at writing, summarizing, organizing and sharing information before I met the psychopath. This is a gift I received through my psychopath experience. It was honed, in 30 years, of working diligently to grow in clarity, and to express myself more and more, clearly, originally, in the futile effort to reach the psychopath, and facilitate communication between us. I did not know, of course, that the psychopath's intention, was to prevent communication. Communication fosters harmony and cooperation. My growing ability to recognize truth and express it clearly enraged the psychopath. This was a threat to his continuing psychopathic success. I didn't know this. I tried harder and harder to hone my communication skills, believing they were faulty, and that if I improved them, he would finally get what I was saying. In the end, my written communication skills served my release from hell. By writing my story, I was able to elucidate the truth to myself, and to others who could help me, such as the people here on this forum.

So, I guess this is one example of how evil serves good. And this is a universal truth. In the broader sense, evil serves good. In the end, it will. In the largest ways, we do not see it because it takes longer than our lifetimes, but this is one small example of evil serving good.

I do not know about therapists catching on to psychopaths. None of the ones I saw with my husband ever did. And, in the early years, I watched him sabotage me, in therapy, and even I didn't catch on. I just felt confused about why he was giving such an untrue and negative impression of me. For many, many years, I thought the psychopath was just a poor communicator, and not very in touch with reality. But his interpersonal skills are off the charts. He is extremely convincing.

His demeanor is seductive in a personal power sort of way. I want to give an example, and this example speaks to the dream I related, on this thread, earlier. The last therapist we saw together was a woman in her sixties. She was a Christian counselor, and very spiritually powerful. I thought, he won't snow this one. He did. she knew all the grisly details of my life with him, the lying, cheating, beatings, humiliations, all of it. At that time, I was becoming aware of his pedophilia. We were living together but apart, and began seeing the therapist, separately. She told me, in a session, that she had asked J about the allegations of some children who had said my husband had molested them. She announced that he had not done it. He had told her he had not. I started to say, "Well, I'm not surprised he said...." And then she said, "He said that IF he did it, he did not remember." This speaks to his personal power. You would think any therapist would have drawn the conclusion that he HAD done it. She had drawn her conclusion based on his seduction of her mind and soul. She also, at this point, had begun to blame me for everything, even though she knew all that he had done to me.

Yes, women's inhumanity to each other can be very remarkable where there is a psychopath involved, undermining those women's humanity.

"In the big picture, I cannot change my past, I can only embrace it, be honest about it and move forward passionately about the lessons I've learned."

Absolutely true.

kris

Cherie,

"The only protection I have is Spiritual Protection. So I try to remember that and stay close to it."

I am always so struck by how almost all of us who stand however minimally upright do so by this recognition, and the power it imparts. It's a beautiful witness to the truth that evil serves good, in the long run.

kris

Kris,

In the book "Traveling Light - Releasing the Burdens You Were Never Intened to Bear" Max Lucado talks about the Promise of Psalm 23. In the chapter about 'Silent Nights and Solitary Days, The Burden of Loneliness' he highlights examples of how lonely David was. (Ps. 25:16, 6:6-7, and 35:13-17) He also says loneliness is not the absence of faces. It is the absence of initmacy. Loneliness doesn't come from being alone it comes from feeling alone. When we are quick to turn from it rather to turn to it we miss God's gift. God never leaves us. God will never leave you or forsake you. You are not alone, your friends and family may betray you but God won't. You may feel alone, but He is with you. And because he is, everything is different. YOU are different. God changes you 'n' to a 'v'. You go from 'lonely' to 'lovely'. When you know God loves you, you won't be desperate for the love of others. God's perfect loves keeps us from being afraid. Loneliness could be one of God's finest gifts. If a season of solitude is his way to teach you to hear his song, this may all have been worth it.

The first time I read this I found such comfort. Just over a year ago I couldn't even recall all the 10 commandments. I had a strong sense of spirituality and knew I had many blessings in my life. God wants our lives to be joyful and I have faith that if you follow his principles that you can be. We need to follow His will rather than our own. He knows best, we don't.

Like you my life was almost created for me to live with a p. I was compelled to do it. I am intended to be a living example of something God has planned for me. My mother is a classic narcissist and my childhood was just Boot Camp experience for life with a p. I think to be a true 'expert' at something people need to be doing it for 20 or 30 years. Well my expertise is in living in worlds of deception and betrayl, and surviving and flourishing through it all.

Scott Peck's book The Road Less Travelled is the best at explaining to me the notion of why "Many are called and few are chosen." It's the gift of God's grace. To be blessed by grace is matter of choice. There are obligations and responsiblities to be citizens of grace. We do not go to grace. Grace comes to us. We must understand the welcoming of grace. It shatters our perceptions that our lives are meaningless or insignificant.

It's a terrific book I can't do it all the justice it deserves. There are some of the best readings on good vs. evil that I have ever read, outside of the Bible. Maybe you know it already. I wonder how Peck views P's?

You're an inspiration to us all, in case I haven't reminded you already today.

hugs and stuff.

C.

Cooper, The book you speak of sounds wonderful. I am familiar with that author's beautiful children's books.

So many of us had a personality-disordered parent. And you're right it's boot camp training to be psychopath's spouse.

I am very familiar with Scott Peck's book, "Road Less Traveled". I think "People of The Lie" speaks even more directly to our experience. I first read these books years ago, and "People" really made me think about my husband.

a friend said to me a long time ago, "Grace is acceptance of your life, in all its deeps, in all of its shattering disppointments and losses. When you accept all of it, and are at peace, you live in grace." I'm aiming in that direction. It truly is the only real choice we have. None of us could possibly accept the horrible destruction of our lives except by God's grace. That is what I wish for all of us.

Thanks for saying I am an inspiration. You are, too. We all are. We inspire each other.

Hugs to you, kris

Thankyou to all of you for your deepest concern over me. I have to admit that I am totally shocked. I never expected anyone to feel quite this strongly for my welfare. I am touched beyond beleif.

I do have a story to admit to all of you so I will begin.

It boils down to the fact that I caved in yesterday and called. No answer. I then drove up there. He didn't look too upset and I had a coffee with him and then was going to leave. He insisted I stay. That was the beginning of 22 hours of hell. I have never expierenced this with him before. It went from me defending myself for things I am not sure of. Being screamed at, then nice, then screamed at and so forth and so forth. Kept talking me into staying by hugging me and saying he was sorry. I kept beleiving him thinking that he was going to stop. It didn't.

He kept telling me he has tried to get rid of me for 3 years but I won't go away. When I try to go he won't let me. He says that I always come back and I do. Then he changed again and said he wanted me to come up still. So then I thought it was settled but then he found another reason to be mad and change again. I"m sorry Kris but I cried and cried all night, stopping and then starting again on and on and on. I couldn't help it. Then he told me to lay on the couch for a few minutes but I fell asleep and woke up a short time later and crawled over him because my back was hurting from being cramped on a couch with him. I sat quietly in a chair as not to wake him but he woke up and told me to lay down again. I explained about my back and that sent him into another rage calling me everything in the book. I was so exausted from the whole night and I felt numb like I wasn't even in my own body. I said I am going and that I am never coming back, that I have reached my limit and couldn't take it anymore.

Again things changed. So sorry he was, wanted me to go out for coffee with him. I can't explain my emotional state because I have never been there before but I was too weak to resist. At that time he was in the "Iwant you to still come up" mode. In the car at the coffee shop, he changed again. Just wants me to be friendly at work and nothing else.

I never want to experience that kind of rage again. I lost it, my mind, I didn't know what was happening to me. I told him to get the f--- out of my life and so on and so on. I said a lot more but at this time I can't remember it all.

He changed again. Talked and talked to me so gentle and soft and caring.

I couldn't change this time. I said NO NO NO! no more. I told him I want out, no seeing each other, no friendship, nothing. He said softly "I'm so sorry for hurting you, I care about you so much, you are such a wonderful woman but I can't try anymore. He got out of the car, turned and looked at me as I drove away. I don't remember much about driving home. Mentally, my mind was completely shut down. I couldn't even cry.

I miss him. I hate myself so very, very much.

P.S. He saw my number as the phone was ringing but he said he didn't want to answer it. And he says he cares. I guess Kris, that is what you mean by tightening the screws?

Blondie, This is like the experience I described the first time my psychopath's mask slipped completely off. I went numb, shut down. After a while it seemed surreal, like it didn't really happen. It really happened, and it happened, again and again, after that. Any one of those times, I could easily have died. Even the psychopath admitted to me, after these episodes, he hadn't been "home"; he'd been possessed. He admitted anything could have happened. This began a period of induced mental illness, on my part. I weakened and sickened to the point that I lost touch with reality, more and more. I was in danger of being killed every day that I remained. But I was so sick, not even that seemed real. It's real, Blondie. You have to get out, or he may kill you.

Blondie, please get out.

I know you miss him, but he's a psychopath, and your life is in danger. You are worth too much to just let him snuff you out.

We care so much about you. You simply must get out.

Love, kris

Oh Blondie, what I wouldn't give to be where you are to try help in person if I could. It's not you, it's him. I just can't even find the words to tell you how much I wish you could feel better than you do right now. My heart is scrambling to find something that would help. What if anything is there we could tell you that would help put anything in perspective. There are people here who have been through the anguish. What, if anything, can you think of that would help you? Please let us know. Whatever it is. Just ask.

I can fill a page with "I know how you feel's" but that likely won't help right now.

HUGS TO YOU,

C.

You could very well be the world's most articulate and enlightened psychopath survivor. I re-read this again now after you sent it this morning, you are amazing. I hope there is someone close to you that thinks so too.

Have a good night Kris.

Oh Blondie, PLEASE LEAVE and get some help. I did. Blondie, if you go to a woman's shelter they may be able to help you come to grips with this. You will not always feel the self hatred you have now. My last night with my Psychopath was a mirror image of what you described. Blondie PLEASE LEAVE. Listen to the voice deep inside you. Blondie, your life and soul are at stake.

Neverthesame

Cooper, Thank you, again! I think this may be hyperbole, but I do appreciate validation. It never hurts. I did have a good night. I wrote until 5 am. And I do have someone in my life who sees and recognizes my good qualities, my strengths, and true core self. That someone is me. I didn't have her for a long, long time. And I'm enjoying her company like that of a long lost friend.

Big hugs! kris

Cooper ,Kris, Neverthesame,

I am so sorry to worry you all like this. I didn't mean too. I was feeling soooo bad I had to write. It is just that I had never experienced these emotions before.

This morning he came up to me at work and said that he had been thinking and decided that he didn't mind me coming up once a week and I could call him anytime. He asked me if I could come up on Sat. Then he said he would like to talk to me tonight and wanted me to come up. He said that he was totally wrong for the way he treated me on the weekend and was so sorry. It wouldn't happen again he said.

Well, I guess there was one last shred of hope inside me because I said yes and went up tonight. Oh god, this hurts to write and tell you this but when I got there, he ripped my heart out with his bare hands. He denied saying those things at work. He said he told me he would think about seeing me because he was so worried about me losing it or committing suicide. I tried and tried to tell him what he said but he kept denying it. Said he only wants to see me once in a while. I started wondering if maybe I heard him wrong. He had me second guessing myself. What the heck does he want to do to me?

Copper, you said to tell you what would help me. Then please explain what happened. Why? What have I done that would make him do this? We had a big fight and he threatened to call the police to have me removed from the property, he threatened to hit me.

Did he plan this? Is he done with me yet? Will tomorrow be a different story again? I told him that I wanted away and to leave me alone.He tried all night to get me to do it his way. Then he changed it again by the end of the evening by saying once a month. Why did he call me up there. I stuck to my guns but I did cry again. I can't take anymore. He is worse than before. Then he wants to know if I will be friendly ay work. I have chest pains tonight . I can't go back there. He is so evil. I can't think straight and I have to get up in 3 hours for work. He kept trying to change my mind but I wouldn't budge. He he done yet with me? What will he do next?

I'm sorry but I am to tired to write anymore. I just can't believe he did this. This is awful.

Blondie

Blondie,

Even though I know your relationship with your p. is personal there is a book written by Dr. Gary Namie called "The Bully at Work". And psychopaths are the worse kind of bullies there are. In the book he defines bullying as:

"the repeated, malicious verbal mistreatment of a Target (the receipient) by a harassing Bully (the perpatrator) that is driven by a Bully's desire to control the Target. That control is typically a mixture of cruel acts of deliberate humiliation or interference adn the withholding of resourcesadn supportpreventing the Target from succeeding at work." If you replace the 'at work' for becoming free that is why he is doing it.

It's a great book and I think it's only around $10. There are several chapters about how to become more Bully proof. And it is helpful for understanding the gap of:

"What Is" vs. "What Should Be".

A copy of that, along with a copy of Without Conscience are the two best tools you can have at your finger tips right now. Along with a very good friend for listening.

We are here. We'll listen

take care of yourself blondie. go back and read 'old' posts. he is the same as the ones that are written about here.

you are questioning and you want it to stop....
that's the first step.

C.

Blondie, You did not recover from your recent 22 hours of hell. I can see your trauma and inability to think and perceive and act in conjunction with reality. I think we all can who are observing you. To us, it is obvious why he is saying and doing the things he is. It is obvious to us how crazy your situation is. Had we not been under the spell of psychopaths ourselves, we would look at you and say, Blondie is not normal. There is something wrong with Blondie. Why can't she see the obvious? She must have mental problems.

Call It PTSD or whatever, this is what happens when a person is severely traumatized by a psychopath. You have broken down, psychologically decompensated. Your touch with reality is compromised, and now you are stuck in the fiction that this situation really makes sense, but you need help making sense of it. You are hooked into Neverland.

Blondie, there is no sense to be made of this psychopath's reality. His is a nonsensical reality. He broke down your normal psychological functioning over 22 hours of hell, and now, he is able to work you like a puppet on a string because you are not functioning psychologically.

Blondie, if I was a mental health professional, I would code blue you. You need help, and you need it now. Forget about work. Call a mental health agency. Tell them you are in danger from a psychopath, you are losing it, and you need to see someone who is knowledgeable about psychopaths. Do it now.

We are going to be waiting to hear that you have reached for help. We are scared for you, Blondie. Your situation has gone beyond the early phase and you are now in serious danger. We care about you. We want you to get help.

((Blondie))

kris

Blondie,

Listen to Kris, forget what I said......really listen to her. She is right. Please talk to someone. Only you can make it stop for you, please call someone who can help.

c.

Blondie, I just remembered that you have been seeing someone who is already familiar with your situation. Call him and tell him you need an emergency appointment.

When you see him, tell him everything you have told us. Everything that has happened over the last few days. Everything, Blondie. I know a part of you is going to resist doing this. Fight that part. That is the part the psychopath is controlling. That part is not your friend. It's your enemy.

We're pulling for you, Blondie.

Blondie,

I wish I could speak to you in person right now. I want you to see and hear the depth of my emotion.

I do not like to give advice, but I am doing that now.

LISTEN TO KRIS!
Blondie, this may be the most important thing you have ever done in your life.
Blondie this is serious real life danger.
Blondie, last night I reread your posts from a year ago on the Crime News forum. I am reading your posts now. You are still with him and you are dying. I know this because I have lived with psychopathy too.
Blondie, if you do not leave him and sever all ties, you may not come back. Even if he does not kill you, your soul may die. I see this every day in my mother who did not leave her psychopath until too late.
Please go to a hospital or women's shelter TODAY. NOW!

I just wanted to let you know that I have an appointment with my doctor next week and one of my therapists too. That was the earliest I could get. I also have a therapist that I just started seeing a short time ago. She is in my workplace and I saw her today. She said that he is trying different things now because the old things don't work and he will keep doing that. She said he wants to hurt me very much. He wants to destroy me.

I have quite a bit of support system at my job including a friend who is a doctor. I spoke with him today also.

My p has tried several times today to talk to me. I keep saying the same thing." I want out and please do not talk to me". He is trying different techniques. He said his boss is asking him what's wrong because he looks sick. He wants me to come up weekly now. He is going to ask for a transfer to another healthcare facility if I don't talk to him. (Which I know he won't do because he likes working in the one we are in now), he is worried about me so much and so forth and so forth. I don't by any of it. I just keep saying that I want to move on and I would like it if he stayed away from me.

It's funny that he kept pushing me away and playing with me like a cat plays with a mouse and now that I REALLY want out, he wants to see me. I sure hope he doesn't loose it at work if I don't talk to him. Remember, this man has no friends there and he knows it.

Do they give up quickly?

Please realise that I will be very careful. I see more now than I ever did before. I will look after my mental state immediately. I have a tremendous amount of support at work alone.

Thankyou all so very, very much for your loving concern and support. I will keep you posted. I know that i probably still have quite a fight on my hands unless he gives up quickly.

I pray to stay strong.

Blondie

Oh Blondie, This is such good news. Bless you.

(((((((((Blondie))))))))))))

I am relieved you have so much support. You are going to need all of it. Utilize it to the max. Don't be alone too much. The more you are away from Psychopath, the more you will start to feel like Blondie, again. If you ever start to think it wasn't that bad, read your posts, again.

I doubt he will move to another facility, on his own steam, but maybe you can file a grievance, or something, and get him moved. Though I do not know if that is safest.

"Do they give up quickly?"

I've read vastly different accounts of that. Many do. Some don't.

I'm praying for you.

kris

Me too.

Don't spend too much time alone. Stay around people who care about you and support you, especially if it's someone who loves you and knew what you were like before you met your p. that's a powerful reinforcement.

I've thought about you and all of us today.

There has got to be a better method of pulling together than this. But nonetheless....Glad to read your note, thankful, relieved and hopeful too. Stay strong. You'll do it.

C.

Blondie, please be stron

Hi Cooper, Kris, Blondie and all

After reading all the posts on here, I seem to have noticed a common thread amongst us all and why it seems it is almost impossible to get away: These ps had created with us an incredible romantic scenerio IN THE BEGINNING and then it become worst. The worst being lies, betrayal, manipulation, projection and then a pull/push.

What is a pull/push? When a person is getting just about fed up with the p or a spark of a "What the ___is going on,
then the p will pull you towards him/her with whatever works.
After a victory of getting you "hooked" again, then you will get thrown a curve and wondering what did I do this time?

I think we want so much to have what it was like in the beginning and we have tried so hard to get back what we THOUGHT we had, that we get further and further into his web and DENY reality. We blame ourselves. We try to become perfect, but no matter what we do, it is never enough.

I believe it is not about US. It is about HIM/HER being a psychopath and for me, it seems incomprensible to be one. As I wanted to believe, if I loved hard enough or tried hard enough, this will work. The fact is NOTHING works.
Toward the end, I gave and gave and seemed the only thing I got was my soul being sucked out of me. It took me time to realize how I was being used. I don't think I am going to be the last and that is what I feel really bad about.

Thank God for this forum. I read and read what all the posters have experienced and their views. It has made me a stronger person and to realize it is not about being inferior. It is about them being users without empathy.
So, the more that the REAL truth sticks in our minds, our hearts will survive. Beenthere

beenthere, Yes to everything you say: Incredible romantic beginning, descent into hell, push/pull, what did I do wrong?, trying so hard to get back what we had, denial of reality, self-blame, if I love hard enough and strong enough, NOTHING works, soul being sucked out because he is a soul-sucking parasite.

Realizing it is not about us, it's about them, the failure is not because we are inferior, it is because they are psychopaths, sharing our stories, discovering we are not alone, finding the real truth, hearts surviving.

Cooper, Hi. You still around? kris

Hi Kris,

You summed it all up perfectly! Yes, hearts surviving, but I feel sorry for his next unsuspecting victim. When will it all end? Beenthere

Hello, everyone. I don't know if any of you remember me from a few months ago. I thought I was over my p and that he was totally out of my life. We had no contact for 5 months and I thought, naively, that I was over him.
Well, I blew it. I called him and boom......he's back in my life these last few weeks.
I told him yesterday while making "love", that he was the best I ever had. And he is!
However, this time I'm going to try to keep it simple. He didn't want me to see anyone else. I told him that wasn't a good idea because then I'd get hung up on him and he backed off. You see, he wants to be able to have a little harem of women that only see him.
Not this time, señor! I told him about an attorney that is interested in me. Many questions! Tough [censored]. I told him that our relationship this time would be different. Basically, just sex. I have my needs and they need to be met. I sound pretty cool, don't I? I'm going to really try to keep it simple. To only see what is REALLY there.
We don't call each other except to set up our "appointments" and so far it's been pretty nice. Also, it helps that we are about 1-1/2 hours away from each other.
Has anyone here tried this strategy? Am I fooling myself - that my emotions won't come into play again?

Hi Jogre49,

Many times I was tempted to contact my psychopath, especially during some of those particularly lonely times since I left him. Thank God I had this forum. I was forced over and over through reading the horror stories and abject pain of the survivors here. I learned here that psychopaths do not change, and they cannot be helped. I learned that to go back meant to experience the horror of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, horrific emotional pain, confusion, despair, financial repercussions, and perhaps an early death due to illness brought on by the stress of the relationship or by physical violence from him.

I understand your longing for your psychopath. I
understand your missing the psychopath. They are masters at pulling the heartstrings with their acts, using magical words and gestures without substance, and making wonderful empty promises.

Jogre, I implore you to reconsider your connection with this man. Your are on a path leading to pain and heartache. Can you recover again?

I suggest you read Dr. Hare's criteria for Psychopathy. Reread some of our stories here. Our older threads are still at www.crimenews2000.com, and can be read there. I cannot think of a single person who has successfully maintained a casual sexual relationship with a psychopath without tremendous cost to their souls, minds, and pocketbooks.

Run away fast Jogre49. You are playing with fire.

*edited to make link clickable, Di

jogre49:
You say you want to keep your relationship with the P simple. "Simple" and "P" are like an oxymoron to me. Your emotions, money, and soul will all come into play with a negative results. I can't imagine that this strategy could possibly work to your advantage.

Hello Jogre49

I guess I am the expert on this subject although I wish I wasn't.

I did exactly what you are doing. EXACTLY! I was sure that I could handle it as "friends" just for sex and companionship once in a while. Well, I have a better chance of winning the lottery than of keeping my emotions out of it. You see, they become charming again because their goal is to hurt you and to achieve that goal, they have to get you hooked all over again first so that you want to see them more and more.

"Normal" people, especially woman, cannot and I repeat, cannot, have that kind of intimicy without our feelings growing stronger each time. It is because we have emotions. We are not dead in that department. Psychopaths are. He will always be able to "make love" to you and feel nothing but the act itself. And when you are hooked again and you will be in time, he will start playing with you like a cat plays with a mouse. Because that is when he will be able to fulfill his goal. To hurt you and possibly destroy you if he can.

Yes, you are playing with fire, and I guarantee you that what you are doing will NEVER work for you. You will become involved sooner or later, he will make sure of that.

If I had to do it all over again, I would run so far the other way, you wouldn't see me for dust. But unfortunatily, I thought the way you are thinking and that is why I titled this thread this way. I haven't been able to get away, emotionally. Now I am on medication to cope with his games. Right now, he is in the nice mode. But that will change soon, I am sure. I do feel that I am getting stronger and I will get away. But I have my work cut out for me. One promise I have made to myself is that once I get out this time, I will NEVER go back. I will never lie to myself again by thinking I can do this.

My scope of pain has been greater this time than the first time. Please think long and hard about what you are doing. Each time you go back takes longer and is harder emotionally to get away. Almost Impossible!

My thoughts are with you

))))hugs((((

Blondie

HI Jogre49,

I absolutely agree with Pat and Blondie. You think you may be able to keep your emotions under wrap, but I doubt it. First, you are a woman and we are a bundle of emotions. Secondly, if he is truly a p, he will use whatever tactic works with you to get his sexual needs met--flattery and shallow acts of kindness.

In my experience, a p cannot be loyal. By his intensity of physical attention to you, you may think that there may be a monogamous sexual thing just between the two of you and it isnt. It is just a physical release for him--more so than the average guy. He will be out there looking wherever to get his next fix---the thrill of the chase. I am sorry to sound so cold here but that is the way it is. You are risking your emotional well being and you are giving up a part of your soul. I know because, I have....Beenthere

neverthesame wrote:

"Your are on a path leading to pain and heartache. Can you recover again?"

I thought I'd post something that helped me keep the NO CONTACT action which is the first real step in healing from a relationship with a psychopath or an abusive person in general.

I kept the information about the reality of what a psychopath is motivated by and what his perspective of what the "relationship" was about. Relationship equals warfare with a psychopath. Always. No matter how they try to conceal this. I would always get the image of the psychopath as the sadist he is, really. I kept seeing this even when he was attempting his mask of "good guy". I concentrated on it and really helped me in the beginning when being proactive in my own healing felt strange and new.

I guess I'm saying that once I had the information about psychopathy, and learned about the illusion I had been involved with, the truth about the negativity about the psychopath, all desire to try and "fix and work on" the "relationship" turned into my desire to flee from the psychopath and all knowlege and communication with him.

Anyway, this is just my experience. And I wanted to stress that even though initially there may "withdrawal" when implementing the no contact agreement, that this is the necessary first step in healing. I have found, in the not so distant long run the benefits are great. I still have a long road in my recovery. There is still the reality that I have sustained injury. All of us who have fled from the abuse of a psychopath have. But I was writing here of the first step which is establishing no contact. I believe this needs to be stressed. Psychopaths are dangerous.

Cherie

How can a person ever be safe if they are in contact with a Psychopath? They are capable of every evil thing a person can think of. No remorse, no regrets. I am sure the fear of prison is the only thing that keeps most of them from murdering someone. Also keep in mind that most murdered folks are killed by someone they know.

Playing with fire is the best thing that comes to my mind, but in this case it can be truly playing with your own life.

This reply is for everyone that wrote back.
I know you're right, all of you. As a matter of fact, he's hurting me as I write this. I called him (as he requested) to set up a time to meet with him tomorrow. He said he was getting an incoming call from his boss (some Mafia type guy), and would call me right back. That was 45 min. ago.
The reason I called him in the first place is that I'm so damned miserable and bored. At least with him life had some drama! However, I see that this is not good drama. He wants to use me somehow, I'm sure. He's already asked me to get a place with him and I said, no way! I know he would run around and I don't want to see it.
Unfortunately, we both know the same people where I'm going to be working. I have to play it cool if I want to get out of this.
He could jeopardize my situation there. God, why did I call him!
Thank you all for your support.

Joni

Joni and everyone else: I completely understand what you are going through. I too went through hell and back and thought that I had finally gotten over my p. He started calling me in May and was very persistant throughout June. I've kind of told the story before so I won't go into it too much now. I was bored to tears and thought I could handle him in small doses since we don't live in the same state any more. He came to see me a couple of times and then he moved back to his home city in July. I haven't seen him since. He called me everyday though until maybe two weeks ago. He said he was being switched to night work for a couple of weeks and called a couple of times in the wee hours of the morning from work. I work in the day, so I asked him to call in the hours before most people go to bed. I havn't heard from him since. My question to everyone else at this point is... It's absolutely killing me to not talk to him! He told me he would have more time during the day to get plane tickets for me to come up to his place or for him to come here, but he never has. I'm really trying hard not to call him and to try to forget about him, as I'm certain that he has found someone else and is too busy making her life (and maybe more than one) as impossible as he can. The thought of him being with someone else makes me so unhappy, but I just can't seem to mentally cut him off. I know that I'm better off in the long run, but it's constantly on my mind. If it wasn't for this site I know I would have spent money I don't have on a plane ticket so I could go to be with him (if not move up to be with him). My question is... How do you get away? How do you make yourself GET OVER them? It's so mind boggleing. It's like literally having two separate people in the same body - one dying to "talk to him, be with him, whatever" and the other saying" no, he's seeing gawd knows how many other people as we speak and even if we could be together, he'd be making impossible demands and just being a jerk in general". So, is there a light at the end of the tunnel? Or do we just have to consistantly talk to ourselves? Or am I really that crazy? Just wondering... Confused

It's now 8:47 p.m. and he has still not called me back.
Jerk! Maybe he's doing me a favor.

Joni

Blondie,
I feel sorry for you that you have had to go through this. I should know better. I've broken up with him at least 5 times because of his insensitivity to my feelings.
He hasn't called me back tonight. He wanted to hurt me already.

Joni

I found it interesting that you said mafia type boss...My P had the same connections.
wouldnt it be interesting if they knew each other...

Whisper, could your p possibly be in Ft. Lauderdale? Maybe we have the same p!!!

Joni

I know. It's like a magnet pulling you in a direction you know you shouldn't go. God help us.
I rue the day I met that man and his ex-wife. Did I ever tell you guys that they both lied to me and made me believe (in the beginning of the relationship) that they were cousins? Being naive, I believed them. You see, even his ex still loves him. She and I "bonded" for a while, but the whole time she was trying to scare me away from him. She has never stopped loving him and is devastated (I'm told) that he doesn't want to sleep with her anymore. I have cut off contact with her although she's invited me (through a mutual friend) for breakfast, ect.

I have a question to pose to all:

Do your p's have a "nice" time frame and a "not nice" time frame? His Jekyl and Hyde personality seems to be on a schedule. 3 days on and 3 days off. Anybody notice this with their p's??

Joni

So this has come across from a post on the "Red Flags" thread.

…

I’m going to post the comments you made regarding leaving Ps to another thread:

“If if was so easy to get out from under an abusive relationship (of any kind) there would be no need for the many Domestic Abuse trained police officers, and certainly no need for the many Women Centres for abused women. Many of these women are aware that they are being abused, for the abuse is so up front, still they are caught in an endless cycle of needs versus wants - of needing to be loved and wanting to be be free of the man. Financial security is also a huge issue especially if there are children involved.”

I didn’t say leaving Ps was easy. The bottom line is that Ps do not change. If you don’t want to be abused by them you have to spot them and stay away from them. Once you are involved with one, its better that you get out at the first sign of abuse (when your relationships start to deteriorate) and don’t wait through the abuse incubation period until things really erupt, as it gets increasingly difficult to leave. I think deteriorating relationships commences sometime very soon after the point where the “too good to be true” shift happens which I think marks the end of the “respite / honeymoon” phase and beginning of the critical / walking on eggshells stage.

I don’t think these cycle’s are as simple as a needs verses wants struggle, as I understand and have experienced it it’s a subconscious primitive psychological defence going on between both parties involving transference. When hate and love are both present, and goodness and badness are being polarised and transferred I can understand how suicide and homicide are entirely possible and come when the one who is carrying the bad decides to leave… the one who has assumed the position of virtue can’t reconcile why the bad one will leave when they are so virtuous… this leads to abandonment rage which can result in homicidal instincts (I hate you / kill the bad), and in suicidal instincts (don’t leave me / I can’t live without you).

I’m wondering if anyone else has experienced this?

Kind regards

KT