My sister is not a psychopath but she is sick. As usual, the brunt has fallen on me and I am completely disfunctional b/c of the abuse falling on me from my parents b/c of their pain and her manipulation of the truth and my refusal to go along with it. I am 44 and single--can't date (and hit on by men half my age all the time) and can't hold a job--on disability "for an inability to deal with authority-- guess so after being raised in the nut house I was raised in. I have a high IQ but can't string more than a coupe thoughts together in a straight line and have a racing mind that no drugs can suppress). Onto my sister. This is the story.
In 1991 she married a man with a violent and vicious criminal history. He met her, was clean and sober--just out of jail (again) and 35 years old. she was around 29. He made her go to a dentist, get a drivers license, get sober, married her, bought her a house, bought her a car, bought her furniture, loved my parents, put up with her bringing home 13 cats one by one and even built them an outdoor pen. Look, at this point in the story I will even bend over backwards for her and put 50% of the blame on him. Long story short, they relapsed. What I can't forget was that she was a daily [censored] to him. When this man picks up a drug, he becomes a different person entirely. It is like a drug induced psychosis. He becomes an animal. I will also add that my sister has a penchant for violence and there is a sick part of her that likes it. That DOES not excuse his behavior. They ran around for years before he was picked up on a number of warrants and did time again. His abuse of her during this relapse was horrible.
When he got out in 1999, she came back from Mississippi a drunken bum again who couldn't find her home state and got mugged in NYC walking to a bar. He drove up to get her. His mother kept her and cleaned her up. It took a while. My parents would not touch her with a ten foot pole.
They started over. He got a job as a roofer and worked like a dog for 4 years and hit the 12 step meetings everynight. She relapsed off and on for 4 years. His "hobby" was helping others. His recovery this time was different. He had a serenity and a contentment about him he never had before. He loved children. (He always did). He loved the Eagles, tinkering with old cars (he was good), Nascar, the beach. What you have to know about him is that it is an undisputed fact that he never laid a hand on anyone when he was sober and that there is absolutely no question he was clean and sober for 4 years. He cooked, he cleaned, he paid every bill in the house while she fraudulently opened credit cards in my grandmother's name and bought herself every piece of junk under the sun. She camped from loser job to loser job.He wanted her to get her GED and go to nursing school. She had the talent for it. And he didn't care that he wa footing the bills. She verbally abused him on a daily basis to the point where the man was walking stooped over. He'd laugh and say " I love you" and kiss her ass. I think guilt over his past actions of his life---he needed abuse like this or something.
My daughter's last night in this state for the summer was her sleepover with them-he was the one that was good with her--my sister never came home.He made up a lie to protect my daughter that she had to work all night. I have to shorten this saga for you all reading this----- she picked up a scumbag at the crummy truckstop diner she was working at.
He went looking for her after we got my daughter off to the airport the next day and he put on a fake happy face for my crying daughter.
He found her after two days. (I was involved, this is not heresay). She came home. She appologized. He was elated there was hope to work it out. He came home from work the next day. The scumbag was in his house. My sister sat there laughing at him--I was on his cell phone as this was happening--was watching out for him---for the first time in 4 years--- helping him, along with his 12 step buddies to keep him strong--. This went on for 12 days. She played him like a yo-yo to get him to relapse. On the 12th day, my last conversation with him, he said " I can't live without her" he was reduced to tears--this from sensible talk of divorce.
He was murdered July 17th.
He turned 48 July 6th.
He celebrated 4 years clean and sober around the end of June.
He went out about July 5th. He wasted no time buying crack. She smoked with him. She sent me nasty e-mails. She called me about July 14th sober and said everything was fine and they worked everything out and she was going to get him off the crack and that he doesn't hit anymore b/c she stands up to him and she isn't afraid of him anymore.
2 days later he was dead.
Only the police force has ever gotten this man off of crack. When they got in there, he had cut the phone lines from the iinside the last 2 days (I know from trying to call and in hind sight). He gutted the computer modem. She had a burn on her chest (sternum) from a crack pipe. It has not scarred. He'd stomped on her toes. No excuse but he had finally earned health insurance and recently had both feet corrected. And she had bruises on her shins.
She stabbed him in the jugular.
He bled to death.
Last time I went to the prison to visit her she said she didn't murder anybody.
She is telling everyone half truths....which makes me look like an evil sister.
I want her to stop lying to her attorney (who is no good) and everyone else b/c they will make a fool of her in court. She is crazy enough as is her attorney to take this to a jury.
Meanwhile, my parents are on the "We hate her husband" bandwagon, what an animal he was... forgetting that she ruined every holiday he had, every holiday we ever had for that fact, she is whining to my parents b/c my daughter hasn't written her--I cooled that WAYYYYYYY off------my sister, rather than apologizing to my daughter, she alludes to what a bad guy he really was when in fact he was wonderful to my daughter the last 4 years and my daughter adored him.
I went to her pre-lim out of pity.
Funny how all of a sudden my parents are jumping down my throat again.
I absolve myself from this case and dreamt all night I was on the DA's side--the side I'd really like to be on.
MY SISTER IS CLUELESS AS TO THE PAIN SHE HAS CAUSED SO MANY PEOPLE THAT IS IRRESVERABLE AND THAT SHE TOOK THE LIFE OF A MAN WHO WAS LOVED BY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE OF ALL AGES, RACES, AND SEXES. SHE FEELS SHE WAS ENTITLED TO DO THIS, HE DESERVED IT, AND SHE DID NOTHING WRONG. She thinks she should get 1 to 3 years. I am tired of trying to make her see the truth of what is going to happen.
I absolutely believe her husband would have defied the statistics and only she--his wife--his love, with her self-centered, morbid fascination with evil, and her manipulation could have created with hard work, his relapse...as does everyone else who knew him.
And yes,
it was his choice.
But he could not face being alone.
And you know what?
I am alone and have been alone and it sucks and it is truly something to fear enough to let it take you to the grave.

Feed back welcome

Would like to add, how many can relate to their problem relative dabbling in the black arts? My sister has for many years--white witchcraft, voodoo, tarot, you name it. Had gotten out of it and began getting back into it again.

Hi Outsider

I read your story and thought " it can't be real" then I thought again and realised it could be and obviously is. Your sister seems to be where she deserves to be and I don't believe she can ever change - P's don't. Maybe you should cut the ties - you can't let your life be wasted too. You need to get some help for yourself to get your life on the up. To live again. If you have the IQ and the will then I am sure you can get out of the blackness.

Will your family and friends help?

What do you want to do?

I am sure you will get help and support from this forum as some of our members have come through horrific times.

Good luck

Recovery

Hi Outsider,

For someone who, as you say, "cannot string more than a couple of thoughts together in a straight line", you have told a horrific story with incredible clarity.

Your sister is not, I think, going to change, but you can! It seems that nothing will save your sister - she is safer in prison than anywhere else, where she cannot harm anyone with her violent, abusive and selfdenigrating behaviour.

Since her husband couldn't save her and lost his life in the bargain, chances are that you cannot either. She is obviously unable to see the truth and my guess is that you are wasting your breath not to mention your energy, by trying to get her to see the light.

If you believe that your sister is evil and even dapples in the black arts, you would be much better off staying away altogether. The kind of energy generated by evil thoughts or an evil mind, is never giving and healing, but quite the opposite. By visiting her and being close to her you are only being pulled further into a morass that in the end could prove very difficult to get out of.

From your post it seems that your main objective is to get your sister to see the truth of what she has done. That you want her to understand the pain and suffering she has caused everyone who loves her. It seems that she may be too ill to see anything beyond her own nose and the truth appears not to be part of it.

You should take care of you! Try to use your energies to create positive and healing aspects and bring them into your life.

Yes, it can be hard to be alone. Or to feel alone. But there's a reason why you're born and a reason for why you are alive and your life has purpose even if you do not yet know or feel that you know what that purpose is.

If not for the Light there could not be darkness.

Hang on!

Stay well,

Nan

I can't believe I found this site It is a Godsend. Thanks people. Nan, you nailed it on the head. What I want EXACTLY is for her to see the light and to get brutally honest with what she has done and the irreparable damage--he had hoards of nieces and nephews that adored him and four siblings who felt the same way.
No man could have loved her more and she took that love and did the most grotesque and horrible things imaginable with it. It turns my stomach and breaks my heart for him--as you read in the post--he was no angel. But he was one who had truly finally found himself and God and knew what was important in life--the small things, the moment, and other people.

I never could get to know my sister even though she lived in very close proximity to me almost all of my life. Is this typical?

Hi Outsider,

I think many people who are as psychologically challenged as you sister have problems with intimacy.

Psychopaths don't tend to let people close to their real selves, but appear to be very good at getting people to feel very connected to their false selves / masks.

You used terminology that is more closely associated to Borderline Personality Disorder to describe your sister, e.g. walking on eggshells. Those with BPD tend to be very uncomfortable with intimacy, it can make them feel insecure and engulfed simultaneously, which can manifest as rage.

I think many in the forum have mentioned lack of intimacy in relating their experiences with their Ps.

It is hard to imagine how terrible your situation is emotionally, having lost a dear relative at the hands of another close relative. I hope you have access to professionals who can help you manage the tremendous grief you must be experiencing - is it possible that grief is underlying your depression?

Best Wishes

KT

Hi KT,

You write:

"I think many in the forum have mentioned lack of intimacy in relating their experiences with their Ps."

Yes! I remember very clearly a sense that the P I knew did not know how to relate to me in a way that was soft and tender. He did not like being touched unless HE initiated the touching. If I touched him: a brief embrace or a gentle touch on the shoulder, it would elicit an immediate sense that he would prefer remaining untouched. Once, when I asked about this, he said that no one had ever touched him in that way. I was incredulous! He was then past the age I am now. Had been married twice, had had several relationships and NO ONE had ever touched him in an affectionate manner?

I did not understand it then, but I do now.

How sad to neither need nor want to be touched affectionately. To not know how or know why it is needed and wanted.

Nan

HI Nan and KT

Just thought I'd say that in my experience it was the opposite - he was very touchy -feely - always had to hold his hand when out, sleep close at night etc -Only when he was ready to move on and the mask started to slip did I get the "no contact unless I want sex" message - and then it was delivered loud and clear!


Also as an aside on the children's act - I have started reading it - but actually can't see anywhere where it actively promotes shared parenting - but I'll keep reading. Work kept me busy last night so i did not get as much done as I wanted.

best wishes

REcovery

Hi everyone who is answering me and helping me now to try and sort this out.
The thing about "walking on eggshells" came from a post I read here about 16 types of p's and one of them was "explosive" and that is my sister to a "T".
I am in turmoil now trying to figure out if it is possible that she fits this disorder.
One thing is quite certain, that since she "took" him out and is incarcerated, she is acting just like one.
So I then look to her history.
She's been a problem since birth.
Is it common for the parents to consider the P a loving generous child--- the opposite of all the signs and all the trouble and all the things they do?
Can a "P" love animals?--- on the other hand--her love of cats was EXTREMELY EGOCENTRIC. She's a Leo and would get drunk and practically consider herself some sort of special cat person most especially the beauties like the Lynx. Her whole bedroom was done up-- ridiculously so-- in cats--leopard print. Well overdone. Anyway,
she had a baby at home in the bathroom many years ago and considers herself wonderful for saving it's life. There was no prenatal care. She put her up for open adoption but won't see her (before the incarceration) "b/c she can't stand the adoptive mother."
She took in my grandmother to care for her a few years back. Was this an act for the family? Listen to this? Came close to a situation where she could have been charged w/ involuntary manslaughter or such b/c my Gran had a heart attack and my sister was drunk and refused to take her to the hospital. The doctor was mad. It could have been lousy judgment and it sobered up my sister. It was not a full cardiac arrest.
PLEASE keep talking folks.
I am trying so hard to figure this out.
I am trying to get into a clinic for therapy.
Thank you
Outsider

Hi Recovery,

Thinking about it, I can see that the P liked to show that I was 'his' woman when we were out. He did not hold hands or anything like that. What he did was somewhat embarrasing things like running the back of his hand across my breast in a way that clearly established "ownership", or he would grab the back of my neck so hard that I was held as if in an iron grip. He only did these things if there were other men around.

With sex it was always loud and clear, " I want, and you comply". And then it was 'Slam, bam, thank you, Ma'am' with me as the submissive partner.

Nan

Post deleted by outsider

Post deleted by outsider

outsider
(member)
10/19/04 08:30 AM

I am Hiding from You People

That is what I do. Been at this board a week or two. Yes, I know, I have posted a lot of gibberish. But I have not really told about me. BTW: am still confused about my murdering sister.

When I was 26 I laid eyes on the most beautiful male creature I had ever seen. He had a square face, a chisled nose, full lips, blackish thick shoulder length wavy hair, dark devilish eyes, good looks so striking that men stalked him to get the overflow of women from just going out with him. To add to it, he was a Wild Thing--which back then turned me on. A hippy, a rennaissance man, an artist, extremely educated. Later I would discover his family was filthy rich. Later I would have his child and that beauty is with me now.

To tell you the truth people, I don't like to talk about it. I don't like to read the posts about these men. It took me from age 26 to age 41 to realize he is a monster and even now, b/c of my Catholic upbringing, the brainwashing to me by his cold hearted parents and the blame they cast on me over and over through the years, the push-over ex-priest of a state parole agent he had--I feel guilty calling him a monster.

When I come to this board, I leave it feeling nervous-- in spite of the fact that it certified what I suspected about him and also vindicated me and validated me from a P boss I suffered at the hands of last year--that one was very spooky in deed (another day).

"My" "P" is as bad as they get. I can't go into all the detail, the dozens of stories over the years, the lies, the manipulations, the blame laid at my feet for everything, the many faces of him, the behaviors that would leave me shaking with disbelief (I thought I knew this person). Suffice it to say, he is the poster boy for Psychopaths. He has even tried to kill, having stalked and stabbed a complete stranger- a woman--31 times in the back. She miraculously survived. He exhibits all the signs, oh yes. It was over between us the day he used my daughter as a human shield to protect the flow of cash to himself from his father blaming and lying and having she and I thrown out into the street "for treating poor Dan so badly" This after the sick pup was sleeping with a ragged drug whore for a week in my bed while I was on a one week vaction to see my parents and bring our little girl back home from her summer vacation there with my parents. (I am a gifted sleuth who happened onto this info and was able to proove it and trap him on this w/o him being able to weasle out of it--even from a thousand miles a way). This aberant behavior on his part scared the hell out of me b/c I know he idolizes me-- you all may laugh, but it is so, it is a fatal attraction. And so to me it was more absolutely insane behavior (and BTW, freakishly enough, there is no explanation for it, but those dashing good looks of his are somehow morphed--gone--and not only I say it--- he is almost becoming outwardly what he is inwardly-- he can occasionally still look smashing and take a great picture but all and all people simply find him somewhat strange looking and fear him somewhat--esp this effect on kids.(their senses are so wonderfully un polluted).

That's all I want to say about him for now.
The other part of my story is my mother. Better were I never to have had one. Better were I to have been brought up in an orphanage.

There are no warm memories.
She has been my emotional abuser from my earliest childhood memory. She took my ego, me center, my heart, my spirit, she sliced it and diced it a thousand different ways for a thousand years and is blind to it.

She should never have been able to bear children, and this bit of knowledge makes me wonder about the wisdom of God.
Enough for now.

With my sister having cruely and viciously caused the death of a rehabiliated man by first destroying his heart and then taking his life,
The family mythology is smashed to pieces. Oh my mother can continue to make up heinous lies and excuses for my sister's hateful viscious rampage--AND SHE IS--my sister spoke to her husband with such loathing and contempt everyday yet wore him like a trophy-

But I am on a quest for an excellent psychiatrist to work with me pro-bono or for work exchange as I have a feeling I am on the threshold of a breakthrough.

I look back at life in my family and at my sister in general, and God forgive me, but I oftentimes hope they give my sister 20 plus years. God forgive me.
I have spent a lifetiime begging for the affections of my mother and sister and mostly for naught.
And dear old dad, the recovering alcoholic, let's it all play out and never says a word.

Mother rules the kingdom and she is a sick duck. More on her another post some other day.

Outsider,

I said up top that the words that you used to describe your sister are usually used in conjunction with BPD (Dianne may have also said something to you about BPD, but I don't recall her doing so).

The board supports victims of Psychopaths, its function is not to diagnose Ps. Certainly you are describing P and/or BPD traits in your sister and in your ex-partner. Whether there are enough traits to constitute a diagnosis of psychopathy and/or a diagnosis of BPD, is outside the scope of this forum.

I think I have read that the Hare psychopathy checklist clinically applied by professionals trained in its application, takes about 2 hours.

I thought I posted this (I can't find it - there is so much activity on the board at the moment) so I apologise if I am saying this twice: as you have described to us, your sister is incarcerated under suspicion of murder. I expect that her legal counsel will submit her for a psychological assessment very soon to see if she is mentally fit to stand trial, or if her psychology can aid them in her defence. So you will have a professional opinion soon enough.

Kind regards

KT

Hi KT,
My sister is not in jail as a suspect: she did it. She charge him and stabbed him viciously in the jugular vein and his body is full of defensive wounds and she says she only threw the knife across the room at him. As for the father of my child, KT, no one is more a psychopath than this character.
As for my sister, it is still on the fence. Her grief is for herself. Her handwriting is smooth and even. It is a tough thing to figure out. I have no question about my daughter's father-- as I said--he's the poster boy--a complete inabiliity to empathize. It will take time to figure it out about my sister. I have to wonder that you would think my experiences are not fit for this board?? Do you mean that Kit? As I said, my daughter's father is the poster child for P's. He terrorized me for years w/ his complex manipulative lunatic dangerous mind. You seem annoyed with me. I have been all over the board, I did not know to stay on my thread and it makes much more sense to do so and am glad was instructed to come back here for everything.
I have myself a charlie manson-ish ex and a murdering sister.
Kit, I think I fit here to trying to figure this stuff out
and yes my head is all over the damn place yet again with these crazies in my life.
I am not new to psychopaths: I suspected this of in my ex for years. I came here to try to determine it of my sister. Her history is full of the signs.
talk to you soon/ Re-reading this I see I am being defensive. I see what you really mean now. I am telling you KT and everyone, this has jumbled my head something terrible. Sorry.
outsider

Outsider,

You write:

"I have to wonder that you would think my experiences are not fit for this board?? Do you mean that Kit?"

At the risk of putting words into KT's mouth, I wish to say that, I do NOT believe that she could mean, say or even think such a thing. KT has been posting for a long time and her empathy is not in question.

Regards,

Nan

Besides not understanding the way the board works and besides the fact that my mind races a million miles an hour--
one other reason I had been posting outside of this thread I think is the very nature of the worst part of being related to a possible P. The family forum is much less busy than the romance/business forum. It seems a disease in itself to be related to a P and I have gotten some of that in my life here in the real world since my sister did this. This is double hell b/c my daughter and I loved the victim dearly. We have noone to grieve with b/c my parents are in a fantasy to "make my sister an okay person" by villainizing her victim.
Kit makes a valid point and observation that the board is more for support than diagnosis--but certainly I have read a ton of threads by desparate people asking if so and so sounds like a P.
It is hell to think, ponder, possibly discover that you shared the womb with one (a P), a mother with one. That the mysteries of a lifetime can be answered with this ugly answer. My sister is competent to stand trial. In my state, unless you are filthy rich, incompetency to stand trial is almost impossible to get. Since I have been telling my sister 3 -4 weeks ago to own this thing and etc.-- she has stopped writing. I am relieved.
Yesterday I spent the entire day with my finally best friend b/c she finally quit drinking, I waited for that for 12 years and kept her at arms length all that time, while she went through the process of her second DUI in 7 1/2 years. She's generous and successul at work and I know she is going to do great in sobriety. But being at the courthouse with her all day was hard. I saw my sister's lawyer. I thought I about the pre-lim I had attended. I thought about it all--you think about it 24 hours a day.
You think about the victim, a person you loved, being gone forever, ALL THE TIME. You think about your child's lunatic father being back in the county jail next door again, the P, who violated state parole yet again.
You are worn out and wonder how you got into the middle of these people and when will it end. I am surrounded by murderers.
Let me tell you, It is scary and creepy and gives one anxiety attacks out of no where. People you think you knew... your own sister.
Suddenly there are no rules left in life. Anything can happen. Everyone is crazy and no one is safe anymore and no one is to be trusted. Just a raised voice and I go running. My crazy nit picking landlord called me yet again yesterday scolding me yet again about something minute (I have a perfect tentant record all my life--we are the perfect tentants) I lost it. How dare he call me and yell at me in my home. I have had enough. My girlfriend whom I mentioned above is a landlord and she was appalled when I relayed his gripe-his outburst (I had not removed my airconditioner yet from the window)--he's very very old and VERY stingy with the buck. Guess why it has not been removed? The murdered brother-in-law, my brother-in-law, took care of this for me. I just hung up the phone on my landlord and told him to stop bothering me all the time and that I am moving this summer.
I have gone through this process before where someone I loved committed a horrible bloody insane crime and I know what I am in for and it rocks your world and can take for ever to come out the other side. I am doing what ever I can to try to get help to speed up that process and trying to figure out what and who my sister is is definately a vital part of healing and understanding.
thanks all.
Outsider

Hi KT, I am quite certain that I didn't make a reference to BPD. I think it is very uncommon for a victim to get an official diagnosis about the suspected P in their lives. I try to let people come to their own conclusions after reading the criteria and stories of others.

Outsider, I will send an email to a friend that works in the prison system here in the US. I spent a short stint a few years ago working for a criminal defense attorney (it made me sick) and at least in California all prisoners go through "intake" at San Quentin for an assessment. As far as I know this assessment is for the purposes of placement at another prison and is about gang issues etc. to insure proper segregation etc.

As far as your sister, it is very hard to be declared incompetent to stand trial. Heck, Ted Bundy was declared competent to even be his own attorney.

Even if the system does an analysis of your sister and tells her she is a Psychopath, could you really trust that she would tell the truth about it?

Best Regards,
Di

Outsider here again,
I read a tiny bit last night on some interesting threads- my daughter takes over the computer after school. Great thread about narcistic vs P. and in it mentioning the way we merge w/ these characters and why. I like the saying that love is not found gazing into each others eyes but outward towards a shared common goal. One way to help protect us from our vulnerability of getting involved w/ our attractions to these characters. My red flags go up when my eyes are drawn to someone I do not know from my long history of bad choices.
This thread well, becoming my personal diary.
Yesterday was a weird day-- it was a hard day-- as if the murder had just occurred-- as if my brother-in-law had just died. As if it were all new. I had to fight very hard through the day yesterday and I conquered it- God was with me yesterday. Out of nowhere comes the horrible truth ( I am going to give my brother-in-law a fictious name for ease of writing and my sister as well--nothing is at trial yet) Liz killed Peter. It is surreal. It can't be. a nightmare. He will call on the phone. We had turkey for dinner. He really loved turkey and loved to cook it. As clear as day I could see his sparkling eyes and big smile and an oven mit and a cooking fork and him looking at a pan of roasting turkey in his oven and at us like he just found the Holy Grail. What was I doing making turkey? How can I never see him again? How can I ever talk to my sister again.

Hi Outsider,

I am sorry you are in such pain and it must be horrible to have days like you are having.

Has your sister been sentenced yet? Do you live in the same area as your family?

I wish you the best,
Di

Hi there Di,
That is the kicker:
We lived just a half mile from them (where they did live) whereas my parents live over a thousand miles from them for over 4 years now-- making it easy for them to create a fantasy about this nighmare in order to better cope with it.
Truly, I am too sensitive a soul. People deal with the death of loved ones every day.
But I tell you it was NOT his time to go. He filled many purposes and helped many people. Truly, I understood yesterday that this is the first one that I will never stop missing and that I have begun the journey of being an older person (44) in the beginning stages of losing people I truly love and I suspect you NEVER stop missing them. you just carry on.
I don't hate her anymore for doing it.
I don't know what I will end up doing w/ about her.
I am glad she is away from my daughter. God works in interesting ways: as I mentioned in a post my friend Danielle-- a very bright shining star of a soul has at long last stopped drinking and I am not usually optimistic about recovery but I am with her. She has taken my sister's place in my daughter's life and she is a MUCH healthier role model, no one is perfect-- but she is kind, generous, happy, full of energy and life and honesty and spiritual and very spooked by this darkness and telling me to separate from it.
Thanks for the inquiry Di.
Oh, my landlord sent over 6 month past due plumbers as a way to make up to me-- harmphhh, he is terrible--- we do want to go to the south where it is warm this summer, we will try.
Oh, it may be almost a year before actual sentencing.

"I suspect you NEVER stop missing them. you just carry on."

So true outsider but the worst of the pain goes though through time.

You may feel that he had not fulfilled his purpose, but in time you may see that in fact he did. Even his death may fulfill a purpose that cannot be seen yet. I thought that my sons life had been cut short but I see now that I could not be aware of what suffering he had been saved from and his death changed me in a positive way despite the grief or maybe because of the grief. Not that he died for my benefit, but good comes out of everything eventually.

If it is not too painful, what happened to him?
Later in his life, especially these last 4 years, "Peter,' deserved a much better life, he deserved so much more. He gave much more than he recieved. people let him down all the time that he tried to help. his wife treated him and talked to him like he was worthless. He worked like a dog on a hot roof and alternately a freezing roof long hours.
That hopefully he is in a place of love and peace now is my only solace and that we all meet again someday.
Thanks Mati.

Just thank you all for being supportive today. I am noticing in the smallest of ways--in my 3-D world- not including my outburst at my landlord which was warranted and long overdue- that I have a lot of anger inside. It helps when people validate you.(you all) I am going to pick up my chubby little guy I pick up from school for a little extra cash and gosh darn this government, no child support and just finally at at last got a wee bit of cash together for me and my girl and yet another goverment rule b.c they help us and they are after it with a new form and a new law and been brain storming all after noon how to outsmart them b.c we need it-- we have suffered for it for long--no new clothes- moives- nothing like that. I think I figured out a way...a way to keep it from them.
Off topic again.
You are my friends.
Lonely night ahead in front of the tele with my demons but I swam (my elixar) and I am fighting and not lying down.
ALL OF US ALL OF US will be okay.
There are monsters in the world. They ARE everywhere. But we are here too.
Sue (Outsider)

Insider,

"ALL OF US ALL OF US will be okay. "

Yes! And you are part of all of us.

Love,

Nan

"That hopefully he is in a place of love and peace now is my only solace and that we all meet again someday."

Yes, and I hope that you continue to get solace from that thought Sue.

My eldest son commited suicide 4 years ago. He was schizophrenic. I cannot blame him for his choice. Life must have been unbearable for him.

I cannot think of his n stepfather as innocent. When my son was younger (12) his stepfather was working on him, as with all four of my children to get n supply by doing me down behind my back. I only knew that my children did not love me as they should have as I never abused them. I only knew the truth this past year after I left the pit. He is working his magic full blast now that I am out of the way and have unmasked him.

Glad you feel supported. Lonely night in for me as well. here's a hug for you ((((Sue)))))

take care
Mati

Mati.

"My eldest son commited suicide 4 years ago. He was schizophrenic. I cannot blame him for his choice. Life must have been unbearable for him. "

I cannot begin to imagine the pain this must have caused you. To lose my adult son would be devastating beyond the bearable.

My father committed suicide when I was around nine years old. He was not schizophrenic - I am not certain what made him do it. For a long time it seemed to me that it was cowardly of him to leave my mother and his four children with his financial messes that left us in deep poverty. But now I believe that if he could have done better, he WOULD have done it. And so, I wish him love and peace.

Nan

Dear Nan

I am so sorry for you that you lost your father to suicide. It is surely the most selfish act possible due to the amount of suffering left behind, but those who take their lives are not in their right minds regardless of mental illness. It is easy to judge others and of course there is pain to deal with, but none of us know what it is like to walk in someone else's shoes when someone finds life so unbearable that they kill themselves. I felt angry with my son in the early stages of my grief. Yes it is unimaginable to consider what it could be like and surely the worst of nightmares as a parent is left considering every little negative thing they said to their child and every time they scolded.

I only got through it because God helped me and carried me in my hour of need.

love
Mati

Outsider,

Funny you should mention anger because I just looked up quotes about anger earlier today. I like motivational quotes because they seem to act as quick pick-me-ups. I can't say that I'm surprised your angry - I'm sure you are going through a grieving process and have also internalized a lot of pain.

Since I've had a similar problem regarding the P situations (and it sometimes resurfaces), I too need to think about this quote. I acknowledge it's easier said than done but definitely worth aspiring to at least.

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Buddha

Now I should look up a quote on inertia because I've had too unproductive a week.

P.S. "ALL OF US ALL OF US will be okay."

That's inspiring in it's own right. Thanks.

Nan,

That's terrible about losing your father in that way and especially at such a vulnerable age. I know many people consider suicide a selfish act but as has been said here, we just never know how much pain any individual is really experiencing and I've always thought it must be their way of ending their suffering and reaching some measure of peace. I imagine the personal recriminations that the people left behind go through exacerbate the anguish.

Really sorry to hear that.

Sylvie

Sylvie,

You found this inspirational quote:

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Buddha

I will write that up and put it on my refrigderator.

The quote can apply to other things, not just anger.

Nice.

Nan

hello Everyone,
A quick short visit for me. (I let my daughter have the computer when she is home) I am so sorry for you Mati and everyone who shared. Suicide is freely peppered throughout my family too-- both sides.. again 2 dysfunctional people (my parents) connect can relate produce messed up children. New to the board, Mati is "n" narcissistic? pardon sp--lazy this morning.

How about fear? Another version of anger I have been taught. That one is getting me again the past couple days.
Mati, schizophrenics live in such a horrible lonely scary world...as you know. I have usually felt most sorry for them of all mentally ill-- it is a devastating and terrifying disease. It is rumored my one cousin who committed suicide was schizophrenic as well. Your son knows now how you feel and what was true.
This with my sister I think is the final straw for my "family" my parents and myself. I cannot say anything to them without them going off on me--even innocent remarks totally unrelated to her destruction. They have always been so "not there" that is does not even make that much of a difference in the final analysis.
having a hard time to day
will talk to you all again
Outsider

Hi Everyone,
I am back to my own private diary here with the wonderful added bonus that understanding people read it and post a loving supportive message here and there and w/ the knowledge from Di that others w/ family members like mine actually read this board even more than we know.
"Holding on to anger is like holding onto a hot coal..." Budda
Yes
Funny, I was just sitting gazing out of the window thinking about how my sister has left my life a pile of smoldering ash. A barren wasteland except for this beautiful child I have but whose security for me ("my emergency back-up, my person who I knew would catch us if we fell, feed us before we starved,) was my brother-in-law. My sister and he were our only family and then my 2 parents in Florida. My brother-in-law and I kept firm boundaries in our friendship b/c my sister is so jealous and suspicious so we never talked half what we wanted to, but I always knew he was there for us.
Even more ironic now is that my parents are totally supportive of my sister and totally abusive of me.
My daughter sees and hears it: she is repulsed by it: says she would run away if she had parents like that.
I wake up and feel like the last soul on the planet. At last I have learned there is no point in trying to work things out with my parents or reason with them, pardon the simplicity of this but they are crazy.
I recieved an application for my daughter to attend a beautiful school out of state a thousand miles away and should just take my chances--there are lots of scholarships and excuse my personal religious affiliations but she's been a child of Mary and this school is dedicated to the Virgin and I have a strong hunch things would truly work in her favor. It's been her path and she is a gift thus far.
A new start, far far away. Leave this all behind. A bad dream...this place, these triggers that remind me, this "family," these memories.
Starting some therapy Tues. One day at a time. Everyday is a challenge. Got some good sleep last night and so am less crazy myself today.
thanks everyone. BTW Dreamt my parents were normal and kind last night.

Sorry Sue

Missed this post somehow. Yes n means narcissism. Yes I have much compassion for schizophrenics too and the torture of their minds. I can barely imagine thinking that someone is trying to control my mind but feeling helpless to do anything to stop it.

On fear I think that the thing to fear is fear itself.

Mati

Sue

Pleased to hear that you got some sleep last night. It is so important where there is trauma. Good idea to get therapy.

Would it be next fall when your daughter would start the new school? Do you know anyone in the area?

take care

(((Sue)))

Mati

mati,
You know w/ the schizophrenics it really is torture. I have been hospitalized w/ depression--the older I get--the more I understand why-- my mother is the root-- anyway-- you get mixed in w/ all kinds. There are, as you know, higher and lower functioning schizophrenics and differing severities of it. I will never forget "Frank." Frank was in for trying to drive his car into a tractor trailor. He lost his job and his marriage to his disease. He was as sane as you and I, very bright and insightful but the typical auditory hallucinations which drove him mad and all they ever said over and over again was "Frank" "Frank, hey Frank" Call me crazy Mati, but in someways I have a very open mind and if that does not sound like a demon to me ( as 99% of the readers on the board roll their eyes at me ;[ ) Who knows. He's made the mistake of drinking beer w/ the guys---he just wanted to be normal again like the old days. I'll never forget him. Then again, I played a game of checkers with another one and won and he went into a tirade about the sneaky Germans (it was really very hard not to laugh out loud--I can be terrible like that) and that it was a sneak attack I had planned out from the start and that we damned Germans were never to be trusted and he stomped out of the room.
About the school, very scarey, know no one, 2 hours from my parents so they can see her from time to time-- any closer is no good they are too toxic and not helpful in my life with her anyway-- and where we want to go-- Clearwater Florida--they begin school in Aug. mati, I have been praying for a guide, a mentor, a helper, someone. I received the packet. The principal is an old nun and I have a strong feeling about her-- I really and truly do. What my daughter and I are going through now is not much unlike my pregnancy with her and the church took our hand and took care of us then for the first year and a half.

Hi Sue,

"BTW Dreamt my parents were normal and kind last night."

How nice! There is general concensus among "dreamers" that every person in our dreams is a part or aspect of ourselves.

Sweet Dreams,

Nan

Hi nan,
Uh oh,
Last night I dreamt it was the future: my sister was out of jail. We were out somewhere and in line at a funtion some place and out of habit I kept looking for her husband and he wasn't there and I started screaming at my sister "I hate you I hate you. You're a monster. How could you do this. I hate you."
Am at the stage where I am dreaming about it now.
Sue

HI ME!!! Hi Everyone,
Either everyone was out for a day or the board was down for clean up or renovation or something--looked that way from my corner of the world. The clinic turned me down b/c of my medical insurance. I am waiting for a call back from another place. It is dark and cold today-- I get the feeling many of you are from the UK, beautiful place but don't know how you deal with the weather. I aam going to use the real names of my sister and brother in law. I am not going out on a limb to protect her from my personal feelings: this is not a James Bond moive: I doubt you will all hire detectives to track this down and tell the District attorney and if you did it wouldn't amount to much anyway. Her name is Nancy, his name was Paul. As I look back on all my visits at the jail to her which stopped 3 or 4 weeks ago, they amount, in my mind, to a pile of sh*+. something is very unconvincing, something is very wrong, something is ugly, incohesive, incoherent, wrong, disconbobulated. More and more I think about being a witness for the DA. That would hurt my father ( my mother deserves it) Fortunately, I told the defense I was going to have myself medically recused from the trial--they won't touch me with a ten foot pole b/c I let my feelings be known-- but I HAVE NOT tried to get myself recused and I will not.
I believe I will let the chips fall where they may.
God bless Paul's soul today and if there is any hope for my sister's--shed light upon it quickly.
thank you all

Me again venting
Got turned down by the clinic for theray. I must start pursuing counseling w/ a vengeance now... and not just haphazardly so I can begin to move forward. The more I think about it, the more I want my sister to stay where she is at (incarecerated) We all lived in fear of her.... MOODS. They ruined everything all the time. She was out of control. She had no impulse control or was simply a spoiled brat or a big bully or an N: even her big tough husband tip-toed around her. She was a loaded gun waiting to go off. She has been a model prisoner. I really wonder if that will last. I really wonder if the real Nancy won't sooner or later come out and she won't start wigging out on the guards. I think it was a matter of time before she hurt someone. She was so filled with rage.
Outsider

I called crime victims counsel again and they are referring me out to another agency that specializes in this where there is "no conflict of interest." I just received the phone call. I just said to my friend on the phone that I must have a break very soon w/ this b/c I cannot go on like this. So these other places may be a long drive but I must go. I am reading the archives about these P's. It will be hard to perhaps maybe one day conclude my sister is a P. She has a great deal of the characteristics. I am sick to think that at a jury trial she might only get a couple years for this murder. I found out that the defendent has a lot of rights that protects them in regards to unveiling the dirty little secrets of their own lives and that my deceased brother-in-law's life will be on trial when in fact he had changed the last 4 years. It is not fair.
Outsider

Outsider,

I hope with all my heart that you will find help at the place just suggested to you. So, it is a long drive, but at this point you must do everything in your power to get the help you need. You are definitely doing the right thing.

I wish you good luck.

Nan

Hi,
I am still struggling w/ finding counseling: the drive is a bit ridiculous.
First off, I want to apologize: I will probably be more of a taker for a little while than a giver on this board. You know I think this murder has thrown me back to 1991 and I never recieved counseling for that one (my daughter's father's victime and his bloody crime). I walk around in a state of perpetual fear: I always stop to say hello to dogs and this dog was leary of me yesterday b/c he could smell the terror on me that I carry around, poor old bugger, and dogs usually love me to death. He was confused.
I have a question today.
It is very bad for me to sit alone in the daytime inside my head.
But I have 2 little part time jobs and take care of my daughter and the apartment and the pets.
I have an interview at a deptartment store on Wed.
Am I biting off more than I can chew at this point in time? You know I actually fell down on my bedroom floor at days end on her birthday.... but sitting alone all day is terrible.
Thanks for any ideas or insight.
sue outsider
ps- I can't quit the 2 part time ones b/c they are off the books, the only way my daughter and I can ever get a little bit of money together. thanks.

Sue,

"First off, I want to apologize: I will probably be more of a taker for a little while than a giver on this board."

Life is not a quid pro quo! We all have times where we are able to share because we feel rich in spirit and other times when we need a hand.

"I have a question today."

OK...<smile>.

"...I have 2 little part time jobs and take care of my daughter and the apartment and the pets.
I have an interview at a deptartment store on Wed.
Am I biting off more than I can chew at this point in time?"


First: Is this a full time job?

Second: Are you qualified for the job?

Third: Would you enjoy this job?

Fourth: Are there benefits, like Hospital Insurance, attached?

Fifth: If not, would you lose the benefits, I assume, you now have through the State?

Sixth: Will this job, plus the moon lighting, give you more financial security than you now have?

Can you handle this job AND the moon lighting?

"... sitting alone all day is terrible."

Yes! It can be a real blessing to be very busy because it gives your mind a break - the record needle isn't stuck in the same groove. Suddenly you realise that you have moments during the day when you can actually hear the 'music'and this can be a real positive thing that speeds healing.

Do you feel optimistic about the idea of working in this department store?

What are your thoughts on that?

Nan

Hi Sue

I would be careful about overdoing it when you are in a traumatic situation.

It is tempting to fill up our time because it is hard to be alone but sometimes we need it to get in touch with our inner selves. I have found it so hard to be by myself with no-one to visit and no-one calling. But I know that it is doing me good and i can feel myself recovering (little steps then a slip but forward all the time)
take care of yourself
Mati

Hi nan and mati,
no-full time, no- health insurance, over qualified, enjoy it- not particulary b/c the department I enjoy is currently filled w/ no foreseeable openings for quite some time, lose state benefits--it will be a game of juggling for me not to (I will have to keep my hours at a certain level as this particular job is not worth losing them over), can I handle it all--that's the part I do not know.
More financial security, oh just a wee bit b/c the rent goes straight up when I work "on the books."
But oh Nan and Mati I have to get out of here. My brain just begins to feed on itself, I appreciate your point Mati but with this crazy old brain of mine it is crucial to be among people to be sane and grounded.
Thank you both
Back to the figure it out game for me
sue

Hi Outsider, a long time ago when I wasn't well but needed to get out in the world I did volunteer work. I voluntered once a week at the senior center running the bingo game. It was great, because if I didn't show up many people would be disappointed so it forced me to look outside myself and put on a happy face and show up. They tried to engage me in more volunteer work but I stuck with my original plan and only did the bingo part until I was feeling a great deal more stable. That way my benefits stayed intact and I spent some time away from my problems and met some very lovely people who truly appreciated my efforts.

Hi Di,
Have done quite a bit off and on over the years but it is probably the most sensible route for me to take at this time. Maybe I could find something I really love.
Thanks.
sue

Hi Outsider, you never know what you might find. I signed up at the Community Center and they asked me to volunteer at the Senior Center bingo game which is something that had NEVER occured to me. I pictured they would have me work in the food bank or whatever, so we never know. It was one of the most rewardiing experiences I have had and I was very sad that I had to leave "my ladies" and move to another state.

Hi Di,
I would love to work with my furry friends (the animals) and I am friends with the man in charge of the local "humane society" but it's a double whammy working down there b/c I will witness my "friends" disappear periodically for euthaneshia and also terrible neglect and cruelty cases come in. That is what has kept me from helping Orlando down there thus far. So I am trying to think of something else. We have no community center which is insane b/c we pay huge taxes and are a huge tri-city area. I'll be putting my brain to work. One thing I have not brought up on this board is that I love homeless people: they wear their heart on their sleeves. I made best friends with a 2 tour Vietnam Vet for many years who was a bright shining soul--he died a year and a half ago. He was a real special guy: the newspaper wrote him up a few times. What a wonderful character he was. I loved him. Had some wonderful dreams after he died. Had a wonderful connection with him that was inexplicable.
Sue

Hi Outsider, I know what you mean. It was suggested to me that I volunteer at the local Humane Society but even though I have spent years rescuing animals with a few close friends, going into the shelter to work seemed too overwhelming to me.

Maybe you could try to call a few senior center locations and see what they have or the local food bank?

One catch is that once a group finds a good volunteer they will try to get you to do other "jobs". Try to just pick one on a regular schedule (I worked for the bingo group one day a week for around 2.5 hours) and stick with it. Don't let yourself get over extended.

Good luck,

Di

Hi Outsider,

Dianne has made some really good suggestions for how to get out of the house while doing something for others.

Since you feel comfortable with the homeless, this may be a good time to discover where the local Soup Kitchen is located and volunteer there for a couple of hours a week. Winter is almost here and so is Christmas and this time of year is especially difficult for homeless people. Helping the homeless you will be around people that are truly in need.

Another, very different way of helping other people could be to volunteer for Literacy America, which are different organizations who help people, young and old, to become literate, that is, able to read and write.

I believe you have mentioned that on top of the skills needed you also have a strong interest in writing. Imagine helping a mother to be able to read a bedtime story for her child - what joy!

Nan

yes thought of that one just an hour ago Nan
thank you both again
and Di you are a wise soul
I do jump in over my head and let people make me crazy w/their demands on me: happened w/ my sisters arrest. My parents did not fly up and everyone was swarming me and making me POA and I was spinning a million miles an hour while my parents also yelled orders over the phone
what a mess what nerve

thanks again

sue

Outsider here,
The last few days have been moments of the process of it sinking in that Paul is really dead. Unbelievable. More tears. Have had a bit of a breakthrough with my role in this horror. So long as my sister is not being honest and taking responsibility I am her strongest ally really by not buying into her BS and showing her tough love by not communicating with her or taking a stand for her at her trial. She will never ever heal without letting the truth shine on this hell.
Crime Victims counsel refuses to cousel my daughter and I have been "fighting them" and have the names of the 2 "high ups" in my state. My daughter has been acting fine, but I ask you, can a child process 2 relatives butchering people one scenario the victim a person she loves? Where is this stuff going with my girl or is she simply realistic, tough, grounded and moving forward....or is she stuffing these feelings? She got over this far too quickly or is she made of stronger fiber than myself>

Outsider

Hi Outsider

Everytime I read your posts I think of how lucky I am in comparison with the events you have to deal with. My ex made an attempt to keep me quiet - and from the amount of preparation I think it would have been permanent - but I managed to get the police in time. That was a real low point - to realise that we were just objects in his way. Yet he still talked himself out of trouble.

I think you are taking the right approach with your sister. i feel for your daughter - how old is she? Does she speak about these events? I think it would be good for her to see a counsellor - even if only for your peace of mind.

Keep strong

Recovery

hi recovery,
she turned 13 the other day. what concerns me is that she does not talk about these events. but there are little signs. she won't wear the shirt Uncle Paul bought her or use the last cat toy he bought her (she is saving them or they make her sad). Yesterday I saw my doctor and asked him about it. He said her defense mechanisms are probably giving her the ability to carry on. He said she needs to be evaluated: this stuff could come out in the future and cause real problems for her.
In the meanwhile, he recommended Turning Point for me and it turns out they will see us both. They are for battered women. However, since all this horror, her father's crime and our relationship with him and my sister murdering her husband--my daughter's uncle, broadly fits under domestic violence, and since they are the ones with open arms, we have an appointment next week. We will see if we can guide our counselors perhaps a little more in the direction of these more recent horrors.
Thanks for telling me I am taking the right approach with my sister. Even though she stopped writing, I was shining a light on a dark place and I won't stop and if she is not wanting that, then I do not want to have anything to do with her at this time.
It has been my unfortunate experience that those who kill--except for extremely rare circumstances of freak accidents or wrecklessness or self defense of a home invader-- are different than those who do not. I suspect I am being very judgemental here. But for the time being, this is how I feel and what I believe. She always had a taste for "battle" so to speak and for darkness. As I may have said somewhere, in hindsite, she was a loaded gun waiting to go off when I look back. I do not envision a great spiritual awakening for her but rather a decline. God forgive and change my judgmental view but that is where my heart is at at this time. I believe she is out of my life for good and feel no great loss. She could never get close anyway and was so moody she made many a days miserable for us. I hope God works on both our hearts. It will be a process. I am glad she is away from my daughter for her teen years: maybe that is the good of this evil. I feel so guilty saying these things but as my daughter grew older, my sister liked her more and more.
thanks
outsider

Hi Everyone, a week or three ago I put together the FACT that my sister had created a lie to my brother-in-law and his family about who I am and about my whole nature. I won't go into the lengthy details of how I pieced this together (it took no genius, on the contrary, it was obvious--rather I am naive and had not figured it out earlier as a more realistic person would have) that I was "after her husband." Even my mother cannot argue the facts that she most likely did do this. It has come back to " bite her in the ass" as, again I will spare you the long drawn out version, but gives yet another totally valid reason why I CANNOT testify for her even if I wanted to. Let me just sum it up by saying it hurt me to the quick when she said to me years ago "You can't come to Paul's mother's house. She hates you." I was stunned. felt like a horse kicked me in the chest. asked why. "Because she thinks you're after Paul and trying to ruin our marriage. Don't take it personal. She's like that."
For years I hated that lady for hurting me so badly, I have never even dated a married man let alone my own sister's husband. Here the guilty party all along was my sister.

QUESTION:
Do "P's" adapt to prison more easily than others?
Outsider

In reply to:

---

QUESTION:
Do "P's" adapt to prison more easily than others?

---

If what Dr.Hare has to say about that in 'Without Conscience' is anything to go by, then the answer is YES.

They are very good at 'working the system'

Hi Outsider, It must be very painful for you putting the pieces together. Are you planning on attending her trail?

Hi Outsider,

You write:

"...had not figured it out earlier as a more realistic person would have)..."

Why be so hard on yourself? You've got company. Very few of us here can pride ourselves on having been realistic, for if we had, we surely would not be postong to this forum.

It seems that you have long been very ambivalent about what, if anything, you ought to do for your sister. There is no doubt that you love her just as there is no doubt that she killed her husband. So where does that leave you?

You write:

"...another totally valid reason why I CANNOT testify for her even if I wanted to."

I can easily understand your point of view. I too, would have felt hurt and betrayed by discovering what you have just realised. Acknowledging the truth about something or someone is not easy at all and our first reaction upon acknowledging an unpleasant truths is often anger.

"Here the guilty party all along was my sister."

That sounds right, Sue. A P will tell a lie for no other reason than to hurt someone else. Your sister was perceptive enough to see that you and her husband had a special bond and she simply wanted to take you down a few notches. Perhaps with the intent of destroying this bond.

"QUESTION:
Do "P's" adapt to prison more easily than others?"

I think your question shows that you are concerned and worried about your sister now that you have decided NOT to testify on her behalf. I think that no matter how well or how lovingly you testified on your sisters behalf, there is NO way that you, or anyone, can keep her out of prison. By deciding not to testify, you are,IMO, saving yourself from a great deal of emotional turmoil and upheaval that in the end would hurt you while not helping your sister.

To answer your question:

There is every indication that psychopaths make the most of whatever environment they find themselves in and that they adapt to prison life much easier than you or I would.

There are many different kinds of "prison"! It seems, Sue that you are on your way out of your self-imposed emotional prison. You have worked hard to be free...

Take care,

Nan

Hi Just A Man, Dianne, and Nan,
Thanks you all. You are all right...except one little detail Nan, surprisingly for the first time in my life I am not too worried about someone at all and I had asked the question b/c she is adapting quite well. But otherwise you are all right on. The pieces are coming together for me. And no, I won't be going anywhere near that trial--the emotional turmoil it would cause for me would be a nightmare and reopen the wound plus make new ones and just make a plain mess out of me. My sister has been a damaging (to others) individual for a very long time and I cannot help but feel she is where she belongs and I am afraid she may get off lightly. a woman in this area ran her boyfriend over with her car in a fight and only got 9 to 23 months for involuntary manslaughter. I look back on our lives together and she shouldn't be back out here in 23 months.
She won't be back in my life this time.
This last hurt, of taking Paul, was the last hurt. I wish her well and good bye to her.

thanks you all.

Sue