I've learned a lot here in a short time. The P's are so very damaging and more than one of you I believe has relayed that you too are a magnet to them.
I learned here about their inability to empathize entirely (my daughter and I had short reunion w/ her P father trying to be a family. One of her gifts is a stunning face. We were sitting in the living room and she was in the kitchen and we heard glass smash. She came in screaming with a bloody mouth and half her permanent front tooth broken off....she was completely panicked. "My" P sat as if he were watching a very interesting movie. I had to manage the whole nightmare like he was entirely braindead (mask down obviously) and explain to him to PLEASE CALL HER DENTIST THEY ARE ON CALL DO IT NOW while I pascified this kid who thought she'd go through life with a front fang.

The point of the post is, for me, they have damaged me so much. Filled me with self doubt and loathing and most of all terror, CONFUSION, and an inability to trust. For me, I will be setting up tests... scenarios that would make normal people show emotional responses and watching them slowly--watching to see how fast those hands of theirs move etc.

Ideas?
I won't be damaged by one again...anymore or anywhere.

Outsider

Good choice of new topic Outsider!

I find it very frustrating that some think avoiding Ps is as easy as identifying them and telling them to take a long walk off a short pier! (I wish!)

For me the magnetism that exists between me and Ps seems to be reciprocal, and it defies logic.

A factor of the magnetism seems to be the abundance of empathy, caring and love and the lack of empathy, caring and love, one seems to attract the other.

For example over a year before the relationship developed out of casual acquaintance, one of the first interpersonal differences to manifest between me and P was our different reactions to office politics. I was in a support function and my abundance of empathy got me emotionally involved in a lot of things that I would have been better off not being involved in, period.

He saw all of this and thought I was crazy for taking an interest in these goings on. I saw that he not only didn't care but that other than observing that I was getting myself worked up, he was taking no interest in the politics whatsoever. Eventually I realised it wasn't that he was taking an interest but that he just didn't get politics.

He was attracted to my emotional involvement in the politics though, and since they were causing me a lot of stress, I was attracted to his emotional detachment.

I'm telling you this because I think you probably have enough historical knowledge of Ps to review some of the interaction you've had with them and see it more in terms of if they reacted within the realms of normality, as this is less potential traumatising than resorting to testing Ps

I've spent some time over the last year observing the manifestation of empathy, caring and love in others, to work out what is a normal degree of emotional involvement. My objective is that I learn to recognise what is a normal response, and both try to emulate that myself (so I don't attract Ps) and avoid those who do not emulate that response (so I stay away from Ps).

These responses are either genetic or modelled onto us by our families, and when your family consists of Ps and those similarly magnetised to them, you can figure its best not to spend too much time focusing on close family members, or even try modelling on the people that you like the most or are most attracted to, because the magnetism is possibly at work there too.

Of course because Ps are so good at mimicking normal levels of empathy, caring and love, then it is only when they become emotional that the lack of genuine empathy, caring and love manifests. So that's another thing that is contingent to being deficient in the ability to empathise, care and love, those individuals tend to show strange responses to getting emotional. Those of us who can lose our temper or get upset safely without abusing others are not scared of becoming emotional. Those who can't lose their temper safely and resent getting upset, avoid becoming emotional at all costs. They could also be fearful of others becoming emotional however harmless they are when they are so. This creates the seemingly bizarre scenario that you become upset, P becomes afraid, because P is afraid, he starts aggressively trying to get you to stop being upset... so instead of getting comfort when you are upset, your distress could elicit an aggressive response in the indidual who cannot empathise, care or love.

This could be the results of your tests, personally I think I'd prefer playing with scorpions.

I suspect that the magnetism incorporates more things than polarised manifestations of empathy, caring and love. I can see the lack of fear (we all love the brave), and impulsivity (i.e. the dynamic and decisive) as being attractive, so if anyone has any other ideas of what underlies the magnetism between some of us and Ps, I'm all ears.

Again its a great topic Outsider.

Kind regards

KT

What an indepth response and enlightening. Read it very carefully but will re read it again. I had thought about stimuli more than crazy "I love Lucy" scenarios, really. I don't know, watching a special about the Iraqi children together, a multitude of brainstorming such as that. I overly empathize and thank you very much for the tremendous insight b/c they are loving that about me.
Oh, about the dentist-tooth breaking story in my original at top of thread-P explained away his response later that week by saying he's broken the same tooth just as badly as a young boy and he knew everything would be fine. (gufawwww)
Like I said, your post is LOADED with good stuff and I will be doing a reread. I got back a piece of myself on this board. What a great thing.

Outsider

kt

"Those who can't lose their temper safely and resent getting upset, avoid becoming emotional at all costs. They could also be fearful of others becoming emotional however harmless they are when they are so. This creates the seemingly bizarre scenario that you become upset, P becomes afraid, because P is afraid, he starts aggressively trying to get you to stop being upset... so instead of getting comfort when you are upset, your distress could elicit an aggressive response in the indidual who cannot empathise, care or love."

Yep, that was it exactly. Thanks for that. I always wondered why.

Protecting myself from repeating the pattern has led me to looking into myself to find out why I did not say take a hike near the start. Why did I get into a disfunctional relationship? In fact why have all of my relationships with men been disfunctional? I am investigating co-dependency as one possible cause. I know that soon after I married p or n, I knew I had made a mistake. But I did not want others to know I had screwed up so badly. I cared what they thought of me and did not want them to think I was an emotional mess. Why did I want to have them think I was not what I really was? That is to say someone who was truly messed up from an abusive childhood. It was because it would mean facing my codependent demons. I was not ready for that. It also meant that I could not pass as a fixer upper any more.

As long as we concentrate on the p, and think the whole problem lay with them, then we will not get into real healing. Nor will looking for a solution such as thinking that all we need to do is avoid p's in the future by recognising them.

I am working on myself now, and know that as I recover I will not be a sitting target any more for p's or n's. A healthy person will not go very far into a relationship with someone who has a personality disorder before they get enough red flags to call it a day.

I am addicted to my relationship with my husband and need to understand why to get free. If he had not d&d'ed me I might still be in there for all I know. In fact I would. So therefore I am at risk if he comes telling me the words I want to hear.

Now I am innoculating myself with the antidote. It has moved me way ahead in bounds of self protection. And I will know what a healthy relationship looks like as I recover.

Outsider,

Yes, I agree, it's a good topic.

Protecting yourself against repeating is not, as KT aptly puts it, merely a case of telling the P to take a long walk off a short pier.

It helps to get rid of the P, but it does not help you understand what made you relate to the P in the first place.

One of the things I have realised about myself is that I did not ask questions. I took for granted that the basic information shared between two people about family, education and work was mostly true. It never occurred to me that anyone I knew would falsify, misrepresent or otherwise lie about his life.

So, one way to protect myself is by asking questions.I don't pry, but I do ask for more information if the initial answer to my inquiry is too pat and dry. And I check the information.

I am also more aware of how much REAL information I am given. I no longer accept, 'I have psychiatric credentials' as a legitimate answer to the question: " What kind of work do you do?" I ask, how, what, where and why.

I am also more aware of people who are overly effusive and overly friendly and the opposite the next day. People who want an instant relationship, and people who smile like the proverbial Cheshire Cat no matter what happens.

These are a few merely practical ways to shake the wheat from the chaff.

Emotionally, I think it will take a little more time to get to the root of how, what, where and why I attracted a P and why I was attracted in turn.

The P's ability to initially be anything or anyone you need or want them to be, is likely predicated on the particular victim's needs and wants. These need not, I believe, be negative traits, but could be positive traits like heightened empathy, kindness and a willingness to help others.

Regards,

Nan

Mati,

You said:

"I am addicted to my relationship with my husband and need to understand why to get free. If he had not d&d'ed me I might still be in there for all I know. In fact I would. So therefore I am at risk if he comes telling me the words I want to hear."

I've seen a previous post where you said something similar -I think you were considering going back to your husband then. I imagine it must be difficult for you because of your shared history and especially because of the situation with your sons. It's a challenge to step back from it and see it objectively the way an observer would.

Whatever choice you make (and I know ultimately it has to be your own) I hope you don't sell yourself short. I hope that whatever situation you chose to be in, it's one in which you can feel good about yourself and be living life on your own terms. I think that's what many of us who post here are striving for.

Regards,
Sylvie

Thanks Sylvie

No I will not go back though I know it will be hard to hold out if he comes saying the right words. I have had plenty of functional living to know the difference now and I know that going back to him will make things worse for my sons. Working on myself is the way out of my longing to be back home. I know that I will not go back but that does not stop me wanting to. I have learnt enough now though to know that if I get in the ring for a second time, it will give him a power that he never had before and the abuse will get worse because he will disrespect me even more because of the weakness I showed. I have no intention of letting anyone abuse me again.

Because the longings are irrational, I know that something in me needs healing and I have found a way forward. I am not considering going back, and I am sure you will be relieved!

I cannot see how we can move forward unless we do see that we need something healed in us to prevent us getting involved with a personality disordered person again, and being reduced to being hypervigilant, or having tests to perform shows I think that we are still stuck in a place where we may fall in again with another p. Surely if we recover and recognise a healthy relationship then we are immune?

Yes - I am relieved that you're not considering going back Mati. It took me breaking up with the P I was dating a couple of times before I called it quits for good. When I went back before it was mainly for the familiarity I think.

Agree that it's a good idea for us to be working on ourselves but I'm not convinced that everyone who ends up in a relationship with a P has some particular personality weakness or psychological vulnerability. I've read that Ps sometimes (maybe often) pick strong-minded women because they enjoy the challenge and "victory" of breaking them down and controlling them.

Having said that, those of us who have had experiences with Ps have learnt the signs (through the school of hard knocks no doubt) of what to watch out for, at least to an extent. For me the biggest red flag is a lack of empathy. A normal, well-adjusted man can't just watch a woman (genuinely) cry or be distressed about something and not want to make her feel better, nor do they have to feign sympathy. So much for a soft place to fall! Creeps me out to even think about it.

Take care,
Sylvie

I have to try and remember to log out. I guess it would help if I didn't have several sites open at the same time.

It is just so weird, this missing him so much because when I was with him, I felt trapped and thought my only escape was if he died. I used to fantasise it sometimes if he was late in. I did not realise that the problem was his premeditated abusive behaviour, I thought it was due to his 'mental illness' ie depression which is all he will admit to, and which he uses to excuse him from everything. As I had made a marriage commitment I felt that I had to stand by it. I also did not want my two sons to be yet another set of children of mine who became part of a broken home, like myself amd my first two children (my first husband was a compulsive gambler and I left him whilst he was serving a prison sentence for burglary)

I had harboured a dream of a happy family, and was willing to do anything to achieve it and make any compromise at all, and I put a great deal of compromise and energy into the marriage and totally ignored my own needs. He was never ever emotionally there when I needed him and afterwards I would be heartbroken for a while then pick myself up and continue. I was never ever happy witht he guy so how the hell do I miss him??? Weird.

If we are strong women (and I counted myself as strong when I met him) when we get involved with p's how come we do not take notice of that gut feeling everyone has of uneasiness when they are in a p's presense? I found out that all of my family had felt that about him. None of them liked him.

I think that if we fall for the fairy tale they present to us then there is some part of us that is not quite in reality. There is something in us that is not fulfilled. Mine was needy when I met him and I needed needy people. No more Mrs Nice Gal!! No I don't mean that. I do not want to go that way. I want to stay open to love and believing in endless possibilities in life and good decent people.

He has done nothing about seeing a psych. which I thought he would not do. Also, he has said to our sons that his talk to me about thinking of us getting back again, (it came up because of the house issue) was not meant by him. Failed to tell me that. Hmm I guess that he is just wanting to mess me around. I never contact him and if I am forced to see him I am cool and distant. I will be pleased when I can get him out of my life completely.I want my share of the house though as he never damned worked for any of it.
take care
Mati

Try not to be influenced by "props" the winning smile, the promises, the fast talk, and the gifts meant to deflect you from the manipulation and exploitation that may be occurring.  "Any of these characteristics," he writes, "can have enormous sleight-of-hand value, serving to distract you from the individual's real message."  Close your eyes, look away and concentrate on what's really going on.


Don't wear blinkers Anyone who seems too perfect, is likely far from it.  Psychopaths hide their dark sides until they get their target person deeply involved.  Too much flattery, feigned kindness, and cracks in grandiose stories should provide clues and put you on your guard.  Make reasonable inquiries.


Know yourself or you might be vulnerable at your blind spots.  Psychopaths know how to find and use your triggers, so the more you realize what you tend to fall for, the more closely you can guard against manipulation.


Set firm ground rules, and thus avoid some power struggles that you can't win.  Psychopaths tend to like control, so if the rules are unclear or weak, they'll take advantage.  Be clear, and establish and maintain firm boundaries.


If necessary, get professional advice.  Too often people wonder if they're just seeing something that's not real, or they dismiss the lies because they don't know what else to do.  Listening to an expert may not only support their suspicions but provide a way out.

Exerpt from Dr. Hare's article posted by Di --he claims even he can still be duped.