I've learned a lot here in a short time. The P's are so very damaging and more than one of you I believe has relayed that you too are a magnet to them.
I learned here about their inability to empathize entirely (my daughter and I had short reunion w/ her P father trying to be a family. One of her gifts is a stunning face. We were sitting in the living room and she was in the kitchen and we heard glass smash. She came in screaming with a bloody mouth and half her permanent front tooth broken off....she was completely panicked. "My" P sat as if he were watching a very interesting movie. I had to manage the whole nightmare like he was entirely braindead (mask down obviously) and explain to him to PLEASE CALL HER DENTIST THEY ARE ON CALL DO IT NOW while I pascified this kid who thought she'd go through life with a front fang.

The point of the post is, for me, they have damaged me so much. Filled me with self doubt and loathing and most of all terror, CONFUSION, and an inability to trust. For me, I will be setting up tests... scenarios that would make normal people show emotional responses and watching them slowly--watching to see how fast those hands of theirs move etc.

Ideas?
I won't be damaged by one again...anymore or anywhere.

Outsider

Good choice of new topic Outsider!

I find it very frustrating that some think avoiding Ps is as easy as identifying them and telling them to take a long walk off a short pier! (I wish!)

For me the magnetism that exists between me and Ps seems to be reciprocal, and it defies logic.

A factor of the magnetism seems to be the abundance of empathy, caring and love and the lack of empathy, caring and love, one seems to attract the other.

For example over a year before the relationship developed out of casual acquaintance, one of the first interpersonal differences to manifest between me and P was our different reactions to office politics. I was in a support function and my abundance of empathy got me emotionally involved in a lot of things that I would have been better off not being involved in, period.

He saw all of this and thought I was crazy for taking an interest in these goings on. I saw that he not only didn't care but that other than observing that I was getting myself worked up, he was taking no interest in the politics whatsoever. Eventually I realised it wasn't that he was taking an interest but that he just didn't get politics.

He was attracted to my emotional involvement in the politics though, and since they were causing me a lot of stress, I was attracted to his emotional detachment.

I'm telling you this because I think you probably have enough historical knowledge of Ps to review some of the interaction you've had with them and see it more in terms of if they reacted within the realms of normality, as this is less potential traumatising than resorting to testing Ps

I've spent some time over the last year observing the manifestation of empathy, caring and love in others, to work out what is a normal degree of emotional involvement. My objective is that I learn to recognise what is a normal response, and both try to emulate that myself (so I don't attract Ps) and avoid those who do not emulate that response (so I stay away from Ps).

These responses are either genetic or modelled onto us by our families, and when your family consists of Ps and those similarly magnetised to them, you can figure its best not to spend too much time focusing on close family members, or even try modelling on the people that you like the most or are most attracted to, because the magnetism is possibly at work there too.

Of course because Ps are so good at mimicking normal levels of empathy, caring and love, then it is only when they become emotional that the lack of genuine empathy, caring and love manifests. So that's another thing that is contingent to being deficient in the ability to empathise, care and love, those individuals tend to show strange responses to getting emotional. Those of us who can lose our temper or get upset safely without abusing others are not scared of becoming emotional. Those who can't lose their temper safely and resent getting upset, avoid becoming emotional at all costs. They could also be fearful of others becoming emotional however harmless they are when they are so. This creates the seemingly bizarre scenario that you become upset, P becomes afraid, because P is afraid, he starts aggressively trying to get you to stop being upset... so instead of getting comfort when you are upset, your distress could elicit an aggressive response in the indidual who cannot empathise, care or love.

This could be the results of your tests, personally I think I'd prefer playing with scorpions.

I suspect that the magnetism incorporates more things than polarised manifestations of empathy, caring and love. I can see the lack of fear (we all love the brave), and impulsivity (i.e. the dynamic and decisive) as being attractive, so if anyone has any other ideas of what underlies the magnetism between some of us and Ps, I'm all ears.

Again its a great topic Outsider.

Kind regards

KT

What an indepth response and enlightening. Read it very carefully but will re read it again. I had thought about stimuli more than crazy "I love Lucy" scenarios, really. I don't know, watching a special about the Iraqi children together, a multitude of brainstorming such as that. I overly empathize and thank you very much for the tremendous insight b/c they are loving that about me.
Oh, about the dentist-tooth breaking story in my original at top of thread-P explained away his response later that week by saying he's broken the same tooth just as badly as a young boy and he knew everything would be fine. (gufawwww)
Like I said, your post is LOADED with good stuff and I will be doing a reread. I got back a piece of myself on this board. What a great thing.

Outsider

kt

"Those who can't lose their temper safely and resent getting upset, avoid becoming emotional at all costs. They could also be fearful of others becoming emotional however harmless they are when they are so. This creates the seemingly bizarre scenario that you become upset, P becomes afraid, because P is afraid, he starts aggressively trying to get you to stop being upset... so instead of getting comfort when you are upset, your distress could elicit an aggressive response in the indidual who cannot empathise, care or love."

Yep, that was it exactly. Thanks for that. I always wondered why.

Protecting myself from repeating the pattern has led me to looking into myself to find out why I did not say take a hike near the start. Why did I get into a disfunctional relationship? In fact why have all of my relationships with men been disfunctional? I am investigating co-dependency as one possible cause. I know that soon after I married p or n, I knew I had made a mistake. But I did not want others to know I had screwed up so badly. I cared what they thought of me and did not want them to think I was an emotional mess. Why did I want to have them think I was not what I really was? That is to say someone who was truly messed up from an abusive childhood. It was because it would mean facing my codependent demons. I was not ready for that. It also meant that I could not pass as a fixer upper any more.

As long as we concentrate on the p, and think the whole problem lay with them, then we will not get into real healing. Nor will looking for a solution such as thinking that all we need to do is avoid p's in the future by recognising them.

I am working on myself now, and know that as I recover I will not be a sitting target any more for p's or n's. A healthy person will not go very far into a relationship with someone who has a personality disorder before they get enough red flags to call it a day.

I am addicted to my relationship with my husband and need to understand why to get free. If he had not d&d'ed me I might still be in there for all I know. In fact I would. So therefore I am at risk if he comes telling me the words I want to hear.

Now I am innoculating myself with the antidote. It has moved me way ahead in bounds of self protection. And I will know what a healthy relationship looks like as I recover.

Outsider,

Yes, I agree, it's a good topic.

Protecting yourself against repeating is not, as KT aptly puts it, merely a case of telling the P to take a long walk off a short pier.

It helps to get rid of the P, but it does not help you understand what made you relate to the P in the first place.

One of the things I have realised about myself is that I did not ask questions. I took for granted that the basic information shared between two people about family, education and work was mostly true. It never occurred to me that anyone I knew would falsify, misrepresent or otherwise lie about his life.

So, one way to protect myself is by asking questions.I don't pry, but I do ask for more information if the initial answer to my inquiry is too pat and dry. And I check the information.

I am also more aware of how much REAL information I am given. I no longer accept, 'I have psychiatric credentials' as a legitimate answer to the question: " What kind of work do you do?" I ask, how, what, where and why.

I am also more aware of people who are overly effusive and overly friendly and the opposite the next day. People who want an instant relationship, and people who smile like the proverbial Cheshire Cat no matter what happens.

These are a few merely practical ways to shake the wheat from the chaff.

Emotionally, I think it will take a little more time to get to the root of how, what, where and why I attracted a P and why I was attracted in turn.

The P's ability to initially be anything or anyone you need or want them to be, is likely predicated on the particular victim's needs and wants. These need not, I believe, be negative traits, but could be positive traits like heightened empathy, kindness and a willingness to help others.

Regards,

Nan

Mati,

You said:

"I am addicted to my relationship with my husband and need to understand why to get free. If he had not d&d'ed me I might still be in there for all I know. In fact I would. So therefore I am at risk if he comes telling me the words I want to hear."

I've seen a previous post where you said something similar -I think you were considering going back to your husband then. I imagine it must be difficult for you because of your shared history and especially because of the situation with your sons. It's a challenge to step back from it and see it objectively the way an observer would.

Whatever choice you make (and I know ultimately it has to be your own) I hope you don't sell yourself short. I hope that whatever situation you chose to be in, it's one in which you can feel good about yourself and be living life on your own terms. I think that's what many of us who post here are striving for.

Regards,
Sylvie

Thanks Sylvie

No I will not go back though I know it will be hard to hold out if he comes saying the right words. I have had plenty of functional living to know the difference now and I know that going back to him will make things worse for my sons. Working on myself is the way out of my longing to be back home. I know that I will not go back but that does not stop me wanting to. I have learnt enough now though to know that if I get in the ring for a second time, it will give him a power that he never had before and the abuse will get worse because he will disrespect me even more because of the weakness I showed. I have no intention of letting anyone abuse me again.

Because the longings are irrational, I know that something in me needs healing and I have found a way forward. I am not considering going back, and I am sure you will be relieved!

I cannot see how we can move forward unless we do see that we need something healed in us to prevent us getting involved with a personality disordered person again, and being reduced to being hypervigilant, or having tests to perform shows I think that we are still stuck in a place where we may fall in again with another p. Surely if we recover and recognise a healthy relationship then we are immune?

Yes - I am relieved that you're not considering going back Mati. It took me breaking up with the P I was dating a couple of times before I called it quits for good. When I went back before it was mainly for the familiarity I think.

Agree that it's a good idea for us to be working on ourselves but I'm not convinced that everyone who ends up in a relationship with a P has some particular personality weakness or psychological vulnerability. I've read that Ps sometimes (maybe often) pick strong-minded women because they enjoy the challenge and "victory" of breaking them down and controlling them.

Having said that, those of us who have had experiences with Ps have learnt the signs (through the school of hard knocks no doubt) of what to watch out for, at least to an extent. For me the biggest red flag is a lack of empathy. A normal, well-adjusted man can't just watch a woman (genuinely) cry or be distressed about something and not want to make her feel better, nor do they have to feign sympathy. So much for a soft place to fall! Creeps me out to even think about it.

Take care,
Sylvie

I have to try and remember to log out. I guess it would help if I didn't have several sites open at the same time.

It is just so weird, this missing him so much because when I was with him, I felt trapped and thought my only escape was if he died. I used to fantasise it sometimes if he was late in. I did not realise that the problem was his premeditated abusive behaviour, I thought it was due to his 'mental illness' ie depression which is all he will admit to, and which he uses to excuse him from everything. As I had made a marriage commitment I felt that I had to stand by it. I also did not want my two sons to be yet another set of children of mine who became part of a broken home, like myself amd my first two children (my first husband was a compulsive gambler and I left him whilst he was serving a prison sentence for burglary)

I had harboured a dream of a happy family, and was willing to do anything to achieve it and make any compromise at all, and I put a great deal of compromise and energy into the marriage and totally ignored my own needs. He was never ever emotionally there when I needed him and afterwards I would be heartbroken for a while then pick myself up and continue. I was never ever happy witht he guy so how the hell do I miss him??? Weird.

If we are strong women (and I counted myself as strong when I met him) when we get involved with p's how come we do not take notice of that gut feeling everyone has of uneasiness when they are in a p's presense? I found out that all of my family had felt that about him. None of them liked him.

I think that if we fall for the fairy tale they present to us then there is some part of us that is not quite in reality. There is something in us that is not fulfilled. Mine was needy when I met him and I needed needy people. No more Mrs Nice Gal!! No I don't mean that. I do not want to go that way. I want to stay open to love and believing in endless possibilities in life and good decent people.

He has done nothing about seeing a psych. which I thought he would not do. Also, he has said to our sons that his talk to me about thinking of us getting back again, (it came up because of the house issue) was not meant by him. Failed to tell me that. Hmm I guess that he is just wanting to mess me around. I never contact him and if I am forced to see him I am cool and distant. I will be pleased when I can get him out of my life completely.I want my share of the house though as he never damned worked for any of it.
take care
Mati

Try not to be influenced by "props" the winning smile, the promises, the fast talk, and the gifts meant to deflect you from the manipulation and exploitation that may be occurring.  "Any of these characteristics," he writes, "can have enormous sleight-of-hand value, serving to distract you from the individual's real message."  Close your eyes, look away and concentrate on what's really going on.


Don't wear blinkers Anyone who seems too perfect, is likely far from it.  Psychopaths hide their dark sides until they get their target person deeply involved.  Too much flattery, feigned kindness, and cracks in grandiose stories should provide clues and put you on your guard.  Make reasonable inquiries.


Know yourself or you might be vulnerable at your blind spots.  Psychopaths know how to find and use your triggers, so the more you realize what you tend to fall for, the more closely you can guard against manipulation.


Set firm ground rules, and thus avoid some power struggles that you can't win.  Psychopaths tend to like control, so if the rules are unclear or weak, they'll take advantage.  Be clear, and establish and maintain firm boundaries.


If necessary, get professional advice.  Too often people wonder if they're just seeing something that's not real, or they dismiss the lies because they don't know what else to do.  Listening to an expert may not only support their suspicions but provide a way out.

Exerpt from Dr. Hare's article posted by Di --he claims even he can still be duped.

Hi outsider

Good to see you here and I have enjoyed your posts.

Yes psych's can be duped, but I can hardly see that a clinical setting with a few appointments, can be compared to an intimate relationship or what is leading up to an intimate relationship. Psych's deal a lot with psychotics, and p's would seem to be fairly normal I would say when most of one's time is spent with psychotics. I just don't see it that if a psych can be duped then what chance do we have. It must be fairly easy for a p to remain totally in control in a clinical setting when it lasts an hour or so. And nothing unexpected takes place, nor is there any interference from another person. Anyone with a bit of intelligence and relatively sane could fool a psych I would say because they do not spend enough time with them or see the patient in a natural setting. They are good at finding what is abnormal but not so good at finding what is normal and p's have had plenty of time to watch and copy normal.

That's what I think anyway.

take care
Mati

Hi Mati,

I think you are somewhat underestimating a psychiatrist's ability to detect flaws in a human being. A psychiatriist is first an MD, which takes years of studying and then he/she studies and is an intern for another four years before he/she is finished. That's a fair bit of education with which to evaluate a psychopath.

I an NOT saying that all psychiatrists are God's own children, for I know for a fact that they are not, but many are well thought of people with a good grip on what is what.

Most people who are very good at what they do can detect when something is wrong or off kilter with a piece of work. It need not even be an obvious fault, it can be something very subtle that you can detect because you have the education and the experience to do it. I believe the same holds true for any psychiatrist worth his/her salt.

You are correct in saying that it is easier to describe what is abnormal than what is normal. No one truly knows what is NORMAL (what yard stick do we use?) and what is considered abnormal has differed or can differ from one decade to the next.

In an intimate relationship, we are rarely or ever objective about the other person. We are more likely to view the other from a set of very subjective criteria. A psychiatrist evaluating a client, is not likely to do so out from subjective criteria. I am sure it can happen and I am also sure that a clever psychopath can produce the type of surface personality that could fool a psychiatrist into being somewhat subjective in his/her evaluation.

I think you can fool some of then some of the time, but you cannot fool all of them all of the time.

Regards,

Nan

Hi Nan

"you can fool some of then some of the time, but you cannot fool all of them all of the time."

Of course, but you only have to see how many p's get away with fooling psych's (mine has done it for 12 years) and know just how little they know about them really apart from the criminal type to know that they are missing it too often. Maybe they are better at spotting them in your country. They are under the carpet here.

regards
Mati

Nan,

If Hare says that he can be duped, and he is the world-wide esteemed expert on Ps, having dedicated 20 or more years of clinical experience to the study of psychopathy... why do you think a regular psychiatric MD or psychologist with far less p-experience will fare better?

In his book, Hare himself gives examples of his colleagues being duped by Ps in clinical P studies... they interviewied a mix bunch of Ps and and non psychopathic inmates, and they discovered that the ones that avoided the doctors detection, actually scored the worst on the Psychopathy Scale and frequently had committed the most heinious crimes to go with their diagnosis.

Mati, I agree with you, most Ps avoid professionals like the plague, and when they get to the professional I don't think they say, "I think I'm a P and I want you to help me." Real Ps know that therapy costs money and suspect that it won't make a bit of difference, so they stay away from the professionals.

Actually its becoming accepted by the profession that therapy exacerbates Ps... so the Ps, who after all must know themselves better than the professionals know them, knew best all along: if you are a P therapy is a waste of time... is it any wonder that most of them despise professionals?

I also agree with you, if Hare himself misses them its inevitable that we are going to miss them too.

I think if we follow Hare's advice that Outsider kindly brought to our attention, then we should have a chance. For all the reasons you list Mati that its hard for us to spot them its also hard for a P to keep on acting normal, and actually they don't act normal...

...many of us point out that our Ps initially are utterly charming for the first however long. Normal people do not keep up a pretence that they are perfect, because they are comfortable with the fact that they are not perfect, and they realise that if someone is healthy, they will appreciate them as a whole, faults and all.

Ps are usually charming and faultless to start with and we get taken in by this, when its precisely that behaviour that should have us all thinking, this guy is too good to be true - ring, ring, RING!!!!!!!!

I think its funny that they stop being too good to be true, at about the same time as they start requiring us to be too good to be true too, and they criticise the life out of everything we say and do.

We should also see the writing on the wall and move on at that point, but many of us didn't, we believed the P and tried to be perfect.

These are lessons that we must learn if we are to avoid Ps.

I'm not sure how we learn them. I really just do not get how you can tell the difference between someone bending over backwards because they have fallen in love with you and a P charming the pants off you.

Any ideas?

KT

Hi Mati, Nan and KT

Thought I'd throw in my tuppence work to the debate. If psychs could not identify Ps then we would not have all the information we have on them. On the other hand if psychs could recognise all Ps then we would not be here and we would not need this forum. In my experience with my ex - he loved being seen by professionals - psychs or counsellors etc - but he always started on the platform of being the victim who turned to alcohol. He was continually being diagnosed from this side and he sure as hell was not going to give them any clues to the truth. Even his GP said to me - I'm glad you are getting married - he has had such a tough life. The GP had no clue as to what he was about. Yet one counsellor we both went to, just as the mask was slipping, did realise that one of us was a P - but not which one.

So i think it depends on who the psych is, what his experience is and what they are being confronted with - I am sure there is no right and wrong answer.

But we can all help get more psychs to the right answer by documenting our experiences - even if only on this forum and trying to get more psychs to listen and learn.

I hope none of you will mind me saying that we are the victims and we are here to support each other. I think we should concentrate on that and not with too much scrutiny of each other's viewpoint.

Goodnight!

Recovery

Hi Mati,

You said:

If we are strong women (and I counted myself as strong when I met him) when we get involved with p's how come we do not take notice of that gut feeling everyone has of uneasiness when they are in a p's presense? I found out that all of my family had felt that about him. None of them liked him.

I think it's difficult to protect oneself from something if you don't know that you are under threat or in danger (of being victimized by a P) in the first place. It's been said here before and I think it bears repeating that the effect they have is insidious so you get out of your depth and worn down and by that time your ability to withstand their efforts to control etc. is compromised. That was my experience anyway. At the time I only associated Ps with serial killers etc. I really think it's only more recently that the whole issue of Ps and Ns as part of the general population (neighbours, executives etc.) has come to the fore. For my part, in order for me to really keep the P away when I first tried to break up with him after 6 months of dating, I think would have taken a restraining order because he was persistent and obsessive. In my view, most people are not inclined to go to that extreme especially if they don't know what they are up against. As far a gut feel, I too didn't feel quite right about the guy, but they are very good at what they do.

The debate about psychiatrists is interesting. I think it's certainly worthwhile that people realize that psychiatrists don't always get it right (for whatever reason). That's not to say people shouldn't seek counselling but it's good to recognize that just to manage one's own expectations and to not hang one's hopes entirely on what P's counsellor says if there are strong indications otherwise. I think the P I knew either had his shrink fooled or something. P was asked to get counselling by the police after an incident involving his family. After well over a year of therapy, the counsellor actually denied knowledge of this incident (in fact if I recally correctly he may have denied that it occurred) even though that's expressly why the P was asked to get therapy in the first place. I was flabbergasted and the only conclusion I could reach was that the P somehow got to him. In fact, I recall a conversation with an acquiantance who's a family practitioner and who knows the P and he said that personality disorders are notoriously difficult to diagnose (some more than others). Again, not to discourage anyone, but I think it's worth noting.

Anymore, I just try to keep in mind what positive traits I want in a partner and try not stray from that.

Regards,
Sylvie

Hi KT,

Sometimes you hit it right on the nose and this sentence of yours (below) is both very apt and I think true. As well, it is funny. Not ha-ha funny, but funny in the odd sort of way that paradoxes can be when you start to take a closer look at what they contain.

"I think its funny that they stop being too good to be true, at about the same time as they start requiring us to be too good to be true too,..."

Regards,

Nan

KT,

"I think its funny that they stop being too good to be true, at about the same time as they start requiring us to be too good to be true too, and they criticise the life out of everything we say and do."

LOL. I think that's literally funny (maybe not always when it's happening, but here anyway).

Thanks for that,

Sylvie

Outsider,

as I said this is a great topic, and it really set off multiple lines of thinking.

Mati raises some very good points 5 or 6 posts back about not focusing too much on the P as this distracts us from healing ourselves. I think this is valid, I thought like that at the beginning of the year, but I also found that getting into a healthy relationship is not as straightforward as it sounds for me at least, and this lead me back into working out what it was about Ps that makes me so magnetised to them.

I've been blessed with looks and character that has left me not short of admirers over the years. Unfortunately my character is such that I have ran and in some cases I mean literally ran from all the nice guys who showed an interest in getting close to me. They start out trying to become more intimate with me / get close to me emotionally, and voila! I am just totally overwhelmed and in a state of terror, desperate to escape.

Apparantly that's intimacy-induced panic, which is a symptom of Borderline Personality Disorder.

So I had to go back and see why this wasn't happening with Ps, but once you get to this board you quickly find out that most of them don't do emotional intimacy either... so its no wonder I am attracted to them!

So the bottom line for me is that I have to get used to letting people get emotionally close to me, which requires that I reveal myself to them, which is very hard when I've got very few predelictions and a very patchy sense of identity (more symptoms of BPD). In fact in just explaining this to someone face to face I go to pieces / fragment / become emotionally hysterical. Actually I prefer ps any day.

So all of a sudden in just committing myself to be around healthier individuals, I've just focused on one point ~ that someone trying to get close to me scares me to the point of hysteria, and all of a sudden its triggered another couple of symptoms, lack of predelictions and patchy sense of identity... and I wind up with a BPD diagnosis!

I'm not sure that I will ever fully recover from BPD, but I'm pretty sure that I will become attached to someone soon... so I've got to at least try to stay away from Ps because if I don't, all the Ps in my life will continue crowding out all the people that want to get close to me, and to get over this P-magnetism, that is what I've got to do.

Therefore I do think that for some of us there is value in working out what magnetises us to Ps in the first place... I think it gives us short cuts to working out what is not typical in ourselves, then we can go about avoiding them and healing ourselves.

So although I am saying that for some of us, healing and getting healthy bonding mechanisms is not so simple, I totally acknowledge Sylvie's point that not everyone has the problem that they appear to be magnetically attracted to Ps, have underlying psychological disorders, etc.

Very good points from all of you, all the same, they are all valid in our individual circumstances.

Kind regards

KT

Dear Mati,

I am so sorry that the P in your life has managed to fool different psychiatrist. I am sure that it must feel to you as though these different psychiatrists have no clue about psychopaths and since you have experienced one personally and firsthand and therefore know the pain and suffering they can produce, that you are better able to spot them.

Regards,

Nan

It makes the lesson "too good to be true = trouble" easier to remember if its funny.

Sylvie, maybe he wasn't a dork but more control-freakish or maybe it was just an Obsessive Compulsive trait. My P would have a panic attack if I left a damp towel on a bed. I suppose it didn't help that he got beaten for doing so as a child!

What is sad that the obsession has you thinking so long about these things that you can actually start to see irony in your experiences.

Kind regards

KT

Nan,

I agree with you that Mati has had a poor experience with her P and therapists in general.

Recovery also made me both scrath my head & laugh at the idea of the therapist not being sure which one of them was the P!

I suspect this much though... there are some very motivated people posting to this forum and I am quite sure that one of us would have come up with some therapy that was proven to work on Ps if it indeed existed. Up to now, there has been no evidence suggesting that therapy works on Ps. Now there is actually evidence gathering that indicates that therapy exacerbates psychopathic behaviour.

In such circumstances, there must be a high risk to your reputation if as a therapist you diagnose someone to be a P, given that its probable that there will be many people invested in making any P normal, especially if they've been dedicated enough to get them into a therapist in the first place. As a therapist You would know from your training and affiliation, how dangerous it is treating Ps and that there is no known treatment for them that is likely to improve them and what that implies for your professional reputation if you decided to take one on. In psychotherapy that's a dangerous no-win proposition. If I was a therapist, I don't think that I would treat them.

Would you professionally diagnose one?

Note that Hare is an academic MD doing research into Ps... he doesn't treat them... what he is doing is trying to publicise that they exist, that they are dangerous, how to spot them and advising the rest of us to stay away from them!

I suspect that this could contribute far more to lack of support and general poor experience many have had from therapists in recognising Ps. It wouldn't surprise me if the 'Ps can even fool professionals' caveat is largely just a large sofa that they are all hiding behind peeking out from over the top off. At the end of the day, all they seem to do is to encourage us to join them behind the sofa... none of them wade in to help us saying "Don't worry p-victim, I'll have that P sorted in no time! "

Nice thought tho isn't it?

Kind regards

KT

Hi KT,

Yes, I am aware that the consensus seems to be that P’s get worse when in therapy. If I remember correctly it works this way: the P gets a goodly dose of ‘how to listen to your feelings’ and ‘ how to display fellow feeling’ not to mention ‘how to behave like an engaged and normal human being’ and all this fabulous therapy actually helps them………to help themselves to:

Our hearts. Our minds. Our bodies and our money.

To not put too fine a point on it, meeting and becoming involved with a P is, I suspect, one of the most devastating things that has happened to any one of us here.

You mentioned in another post that the ability to look at all this with a touch of irony – that sort of seeing the ridiculous aspects of it can help and I agree with you about that. I can sometimes laugh at something someone writes, not because it is funny, but because it is SO true. Recently, Outsider mentioned that in hugging the P, “ he froze like a pillar of salt” and because it was so apt and so exactly what I could remember sometimes happening with the P I knew, it made me laugh. It was also truly funny because of all the many interesting associations to the Old Testament story of Lot’s wife and why she was leaving. It was a relief to be able to really laugh at something having to do with the P. I don’t recall ever before having laughed at anything connected to the P.

Regarding diagnosing and treating a P you write, in part:

“In psychotherapy that's a dangerous no-win proposition. If I was a therapist, I don't think that I would treat them.

Would you professionally diagnose one? “

Now, I am not a psychologist or a therapist, but if I were, I would surely ‘tippy toey through the tulips’ with wings on my feet.
Seriously, I am horrified at how easy it could be to ruin a person’s life by labelling them this, that or the other. Have you ever read anything by Thomas S. Szasz? One of his books are, The Myth of Mental Illness: Foundations of a Theory of Personal Conduct (Revised Edition). While I don’t agree with everything Szasz writes, he does make some valid points about why psychiatric labelling can be dangerous. On the other hand, without the not well understood label: psychopath, we would all be swimming upstream like brain-dead salmon.

“Note that Hare is an academic MD doing research into Ps... he doesn't treat them... what he is doing is trying to publicise that they exist, that they are dangerous, how to spot them and advising the rest of us to stay away from them!

I suspect that this could contribute far more to lack of support and general poor experience many have had from therapists in recognising Ps.”

Hmn….This is a very interesting train of thought, KT and not something I had even considered.

“ It wouldn't surprise me if the 'Ps can even fool professionals' caveat is largely just a large sofa that they are all hiding behind peeking out from over the top off.”

I love your analogy. I would not be surprised if there is a large grain of truth hidden both in what you say and behind the sofa.

“ At the end of the day, all they seem to do is to encourage us to join them behind the sofa... none of them wade in to help us saying "Don't worry p-victim, I'll have that P sorted in no time! "

Yeah…….It is not smart going where angels fear to tread.

Kind regards,

Nan

KT,

"It makes the lesson "too good to be true = trouble" easier to remember if its funny."

For sure!

Yes he was obsessive (and controlling) and I was clued into that by the 15+ calls at work just about every day. It also was a glaring example of his narcissism because it didn’t seem to make a difference that it was disruptive, it was all about his neediness, and it apparently also served to keep tabs on me since that firm had a number of highly educated and accomplished men. P realized that well before I did and felt threatened. Fortunately, the older lady who sat by me was more understanding than judgmental and she was the first to advise me to bail.

“What is sad that the obsession has you thinking so long about these things that you can actually start to see irony in your experiences.”

I take it you mean his obsessiveness since I am well over him. Obviously posting here surfaces memories of the P – that’s to be expected. I met someone else a year after breaking up with P. We really connected and even though we couldn’t date - it would have been a conflict of interest in our respective professions - it helped put things in perspective. A centred, secure, and supportive man is a thing of beauty!

Regards,
Sylvie

FYI, from the Therapy and effects thread:

Hare: does psychotherapy do psychopaths more harm than good?

One good reason for studying biological anomalies in psychopathic offenders is that psychotherapeutic approaches rarely are successful in treating these criminals. In fact, Robert Hare, an expert on psychopathic behavior, argues that current sociological and psychological interventions may be worse than useless.

In a recent presentation to the American Neuropsychiatric Association, Hare noted that treatment seems to increase, rather than decrease, the rate of recidivism among criminal psychopaths. Among the research he cited:

One study of criminals released from a program for personality-disordered offenders compared 176 who received intensive group and individual therapy with 146 who were not treated. The rate of violent offending decreased in non-psychopaths receiving t treatment, but increased among treated psychopaths when compared with psychopaths who received no treatment.

Another study of more than 300 offenders receiving social skills training and anger management therapy found that one-year reconviction rates were significantly higher in treated than in non-treated psychopaths.

A third study found that the sex offenders most likely to re-offend were those with strong psychopathic tendencies who were rated as "good risks" by psychological personnel because of their insight into their problems. In other words, Hare said, recid divism occurred most often in psychopaths "who had the ability to convince the therapists they had made good progress in treatment."

Hare speculates that psychotherapy simply helps a psychopath learn more about how other people think, and thus "improves his ability to con."

Continues....

Blah!

That second comment you quote me on was purely self-indulgent... I realise I have obsessed so much over what has happened to me that I am seeing irony in my experiences. I haven't picked up any obsessiveness in you whatsoever, although you have probably picked up some slopiness in me from that last post! Sorry Sylvie.

Interesting that you have experienced a P with OCD co-morbidity though. And:

"Fortunately, the older lady who sat by me was more understanding than judgmental and she was the first to advise me to bail."

sounds to me like a prime example of what I was just advocating to Sadwiser... the advice of older women really does help immensely whilst we are not so long in the tooth.

"A centred, secure, and supportive man is a thing of beauty!"

You didn't think about changing your profession? Just kidding, but I agree with you. I think that is one of the few upsides to having come across a P or two, you really see the nice guys in new light.

Take care Sylvie

KT

Thanks for bringing this to our attention Dianne.

I think its really sobering for anyone, like me, who still had the occasional lingering thought of fixing their P.

I suppose the findings put a definitive end to the adage: "love conquers all" too.

Ho-hum.

kind regards

KT

Nan,

Because I'm everywhere at the moment, and because this afternoon I took my eye off my bull terrier as he grabbed the wrong end of the stick, such that I've a hematoma on my right hand which is giving me Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, I'm going to keep this brief!

I'm glad we have a consensus about sharing the ironies and looking for the funny side of things... I think that's a positive direction for all of us.

Good point about labelling... its a huge responsibility and surely errs therapists on the side of being less forthcoming with their true opinions.

Szasz - haven't heard of him I will look into him.

I like the salmon analogy for someone who has lost their soul to a P. Very apt! Fortunately most of us reach this forum and get through the brain-dead salmon stage quickly.

"Yeah…….It is not smart going where angels fear to tread."

You know I am not suggesting that any of us are angels, but I suspect that some of us had and still have so much faith in the prevalence of love and goodness, that we went and sometimes persist in going "where angels fear to tread".

Touching on the connection between the mythical (angels) and reality... I thought that fairy tales were purely fiction until about a year ago when I read Clarissa Pinkola-Estes, Running with Wolves. She explains all the lessons we are suppose to learn from fairy tales about how to avoid the baddies!

Not only that, but reading her book gave me more insight into my spirit and psychic side than any other single source. I strongly advise it for anyone struggling with the trauma of a P... its really spiritually enlightening.

Kind regards

KT

Hi Nan

I am sorry if my message was unclear due to my mushed up brain, but I did not mean to say that I think that psychs are not very competent in recognising p's. I know that this has been the case in my own experience but I realise that just because my husband was not recognised, therefore it means that all cases are the same.

What I really meant to say is, that it must be harder for a psych, in a clinical setting, to pick out a psychopath, than it is for a reasonably healthy and aware person, in regards to someone who has taken a romantic interest in them, to not only suspect that this person is not all they seem, but to put some distance there in order to re-evaluate. Of course they will only suspect psychopathy if they have already met one. But, and also in answer to sylvie, we do not have to have labels to know that something is wrong. It is definately not healthy for someone to start professing undying love soon after aquaintance. A well balanced psychologicallyy healthy person will not want to rush the other even if they do fall in love like that and will keep their feelings to themselves to let time take its course.

I know that others here do not agree with me that there must be some disfuncton is us if we fall for it, but not to do so means, I believe that we will not move forward into health for ourselves and continue to see ourselves as victims which is what the p has taught us to do.

I am confident that given time to recover and move forward myself, i will not have to keep a lookout for p's but will be able to 'smell' disfunction when I meet with it, whatever brand it is, and so I will not have to live my life with suspicion and fear. I will regain my former trust of others but it will be a balanced trust, not the naive one I held before.

regards
Mati

Hey Mati and Nan

Before I met my p., I didn't believe in vampires...now I know they exist. I thought everybody was like me, read the world like me, thought of others in a broadly similar fashion, and held close a certain number of attachments to people, memories and things. Now, I know differently....

Do you know when I met my p., he had fled the UK to Canada six months previously..his condominium (apartment) had no real personal effects...none...no photos, no mementos, no pictures on the wall, no special gifts from the past on display....I know now that is a warning sign. He did have two empty picture frames that were left by the previous tennants, which he filled instantly with photos of (you'll never guess) him and me.....can you believe I missed the signs?

hmm, any similar experiences?

sadwiser

Hi Sadwiser

Oh I can really relate to that. I remember going to his flat and it was so barren of personal effects - which did seem odd for someone in their 30's. But then he said he had just split with his girlfriend and lots of stuff was at hr place etc etc .. That was just the start of the mess.....

bye

REcovery

Hi sadwiser

The thing I should have had red flags over was the fact that he still lived with his parents at 26, yet he said that he could not stand his mother and claimed that she was controlling him and would not let him have his own life. Silly me felt sorry for him over this and tried to help him with his 'depressions' over it. It never occured to me that he should have moved out and the fact he had not was a big indication of something not right. I left my parents home at 17 because I did not like them (narcissistic traits in them)

Mati

KT,

"I haven't picked up any obsessiveness in you whatsoever, although you have probably picked up some slopiness in me from that last post! Sorry Sylvie."

No problem - just clarifying.


"Interesting that you have experienced a P with OCD co-morbidity though"

I still consider my knowledge of psychology to be relatively skimpy so I don't know for sure if he was a P or an N (or if that makes a difference with regard to your comment).

I just know he's history and that's a good place for him.


"You didn't think about changing your profession? Just kidding, but I agree with you."

Kidding or not, I have to say "Heck no!" I love the profession too much. : )

Yeah, I don't necessarily equate nice with boring or plodding, there are plenty of nice guys with an edge but they're not foaming-at-the-mouth misogynists camoflaged as Lotharios.

Regards,
Sylvie

Sadwiser,

“.....can you believe I missed the signs?”

I certain can, for I missed these myself. There was not a single photo of anyone. The wall above my at-home workstation is crowded with pictures of my children and grandchildren. No painting of any thing. I have only a few good paintings and watercolours, but they add warmth and personality to my home.

I gave the P a nicely framed picture of myself, thinking he would put it above his workstation, but no. Instead, I discovered, quite by chance (he showed me!!!) that he carried no less than three pictures in his wallet....of a former girlfriend.

I asked him for a picture and he claimed that he did not have even one. When I asked if I could take one, he said that he was very nervous about having his picture taken. Nervous?

Without wanting to sound as through I have just landed, this man was like an alien species.

Yes, there were many, many sign, and I missed or disregarded each one.

Nan

Sylvie,

You said:

"I just know he's history and that's a good place for him."

Yes, indeed! Wish we could send them all out on the space shuttle for an extended one way trip.

Nan

"Wish we could send them all out on the space shuttle for an extended one way trip."

Yes Nan - that's an even better place for them.

Sylvie

I'm wondering if the key for me doesn't lie in re-vamping my notion of romantic love... For one thing in my mind it's supposed to be exciting, right? That dopamine surge is something I tie in my mind to thrill seeking, to where I think subconsciously there needs to be something dangerous for me to be interested! A perfectly "safe" man will never be attractive to me! How messed up is that? Hence part of MY predisposition!! Maybe my challenge is to relinquish the chemical brain bath that is my notion of romantic love (i hope not), forsaking it for the comfort that I always look for thereafter but with an N/P will never come...

Jazzitup,

I'm so glad you've jumped in and started contributing.

I read your story earlier but got distracted having to go and pick my brother up, as his relationship with his partner seems to have come to blows this evening (she hit him - he took out her father who tried to intervene). I've said before I suspect that she is a P.

I relate to how you describe yourself very well, and your objectives for coming to the forum.

Here you are talking about romantic love. I want to take you back to what you write about this 9 hour initial conversation you had with your latest P. I had an experience like that with one of my Ps... we were together totally locked into each other for 8 hours the first time we got together, a 3+ hour lunch and then from 5 pm through to the pub shutting, and this was despite he was the CEO of the company I was working at and the entire rest of the office was also in the pub privy to what was developing. It was like nobody else existed.

I think when things work like that between two people its more indicative of something being wrong than right.

I have to say that I don't have rose tinted spectacles on about romance anymore. Previously I have fallen desperately in love a couple of times, for me being in-love balanced out with the pain of abandonment, its emotional agony.

I haven't spoke much about this P on the site, but actually increasingly he's a major concern for me. I was with this P and we were soulbuddies for a couple of years. Actually we still totally connect, and he still is adamant that he is going to marry me (despite the fact that he married someone else - petrified of getting old and being alone) I have no intention of marrying him. It all started with him having a very vivid dream about me (involving bondage)... for the last 2 years he's been talking directly to me about the urges he has to kidnap me!

One of my Ps is actually jealous of how intense my relationship was with P: Scoring out of 10, physical intimacy = 10, emotional intimacy = 1. My P was very hung up on his sexual prowess... he has admitted using sex to control me (he thought that if we stayed in bed then the arguments would stop - we spent the first 18 months or so pretty much in bed).

I realise belatedly that most of my relationships are not working out because I am not doing emotional intimacy either... not to the degree that Ps do not do emotional intimacy but still I rarely let people in that far.

Jazzitup, how are you with emotional intimacy? Seriously how much do you give away in a relationship...? For me I think I am attracted to Ps and Ns because they do not want to get close to you emotionally (I run from people who pressurise me to give myself up to them).

Anyway just some thoughts I have tripped out... I'm exhausted at the moment as the forum has been very busy this last week or so. It really does take it out of me empathising with people and digging deep to try to work out how I have coped to help others, etc.

So please bear with me... I suspect I might not be the only person who feels this way.

Welcome to the forum Jazzitup. I look forward to exchanging posts with you, but please go easy on us for a bit or I think that I at least will have to time out for a while (not read or post for a bit).

Kind regards

KT

P.S. the "take it easy" plea, is directed at everyone! Of course if more of you want to jump in and post some more it does take the pressure of those of us who are doing the bulk of the posting at the moment. Please help welcome the newbies, try to settle them in to the forum, and share what you can with them.

Please!

Hi Jazzitup,

Welcome, I now realise that I confused you with another poster with almost the same handle. My apologies!

You write:

"I'm wondering if the key for me doesn't lie in re-vamping my notion of romantic love..."

That would depend on your notions of romantic love. Could you describe how you see or experience romantic love?

"For one thing in my mind it's supposed to be exciting, right? "

Research indicate that falling in love and being in love are somewhat altered states where we, so to speak, see the world through rose-tinted glasses. Just as you mention, and I don't know a whole lot about it, this has something to do with added dopamine and other things that happen in the brain such a endorphins that enhance and compliment body scents all of which together makes the other person seem the perfect choice.

Why these chemical reactions occur with some people and not with others, I don't know enough about to adequately explain.

Certainly, I have been in love and felt jubilant, happy, content, desired and all those fantastic emotions and wanted nothing more than to give of myself to make the person I was in love with feel just as wonderful. This man was neither an N or a P. He was lovely in all ways. Sweet, intelligent, delightful and exiting to be with. We were together for many years. Way past the in-love stage we started to and kept loving each other and I have never regretted meeting him and loving him.

When I look back at the first six months we knew each other all I can recall is the intense wonder and delight of having met such a wonderful man. Happily, the in-love stage is just that, a stage. If we had stayed there, we never would have got a thing done <s>, nor would we have been able to discover each other as real and competent human beings

"Maybe my challenge is to relinquish the chemical brain bath that is my notion of romantic love (i hope not), forsaking it for the comfort that I always look for thereafter but with an N/P will never come..."

The notion of romantic love is alive and well and works beautifully when the object of our romantic notions is a person who is kind, sweet, intelligent, delightful and exiting and for lack of a better word, normal.

I do not think that we need to forsake these initial and very intense feelings that can create a bond that allows us to go towards a stage where we love and cherish, albeit in a calmer and more solid manner.

I also think that love can grow and prosper between two people who have not experienced the intense and exhilarating in-love stage. That perhaps there is a certain calm and settled comfort in not riding on the intense and emotional rollercoaster that is assocciated with the feelings of being in love. Some people are what is labelled love-junkies, who are unable to contemplate the idea that loving another is more than being in love, so that when they cease being in love, they leave. C. G. Jung had some very interesting ideas about why.

So, no, I do not believe that one needs to forsake and forego this initially intense in-love stage in order to find and hold on to another, normal person.

Regards,

Nan

KT,

You write:

"Anyway just some thoughts I have tripped out... I'm exhausted at the moment as the forum has been very busy this last week or so. It really does take it out of me empathising with people and digging deep to try to work out how I have coped to help others, etc.

So please bear with me... I suspect I might not be the only person who feels this way. "

It is perfectly okay for you to state how YOU feel concerning the issues of thinking about and replying to forum posts. It is NOT, however, in any way okay for you to even indicate that the rest of us feel the same way.

You are out of order!

Nan

KT

I do feel somewhat put off by your comments though I sympathise with you and acknowledge the amount of time and energy you have put in to help others and I am grateful for this and am sure that others are oops speaking for others

I feel that it would be better if you just slowed down your posting without having to come out with why. I sometimes wonder whether it is resented that the last week or so have been busy.

On another point whilst I am at it I sometimes feel that I am too nervous to say much to newcomers in case what I say may be judged to be not the best adive, as though the whole purpose of the board is to advise new comers. of course I know that it is not the case but it feels like it sometimes to me. Hope my comments do not offend. They are not meant to. I very much appreciate this board and the time you and nan put in.
take care
Mati

Hi Mati,

You write:

"I sometimes feel that I am too nervous to say much to newcomers in case what I say may be judged to be not the best advice,..."

I know exactly what you mean, for I felt the very same way when I first started posting to try and help new posters.

It is not always so easy to give the right help, but I truly believe that so long as we are aware that on the other end there is a person who suffers and as long we acknowledge their suffering in a loving way, we are likely doing the right thing.

"... as though the whole purpose of the board is to advise new comers."

Advice can sometimes be helpful, but I believe it is best to simply be caring and attentive, and leave advice alone until it is asked for.

"... of course I know that it is not the case but it feels like it sometimes to me. "

I think your continued loving and caring presence is all that is asked for. I am glad that you have the courage to post and the willingness to rise above your own concerns to try and help others.

Hugs,

Nan

Mati,

I like the way that you can provide feedback without making it personal, and I think you make valid points, which I will bear in mind.

The only thing I resent are direct personal attacks.

I think it helps to talk about these things, e.g. the focus on the newcomers. It seems we have quite a few now who have moved out of the newcomer phase which I think is great! When I first found the board, there was a good group of posters all exchanging a lot of insight... this really helped me get past the initial blocks in thinking, fault, blame, fix, terminology, cookie-cutters, etc. so I am pleased that others might get to experience this.

Anyway, I think that some of us have to take a step back to allow others like yourself Mati to come forward. Last night we had a name mix up going on, etc. and I know how anxious I was when I came to the board about posting and being accepted and so I think I empathise and worry about the new posters a lot. I think its very important that we read carefully the new posts and try to relate to them from the get go, especially since its often the case that everyone around them in the real world is not taking them seriously.

I am really sorry about the "all Ps are Ns" issue. I must have seemed very black on white at that point.

Kind regards

KT

Hi KT and Nan

Thankyou both very much for your kind words of encouragement and empathy (wow! how long since we experienced empathy? Especially when saying what we feel!)

I am very grateful to both of you for the support you have given me and continue to give both to me and others.

I appreciate what you said Nan about not having to have necessarily the right advice so long as we show kindness and validation when others first come on. That is somethihg that has held me back.

Yes KT you are right and it takes time to read posts carefully. I was not offended about the p/n discussion by the way.

I admire you both for continuing on the board even though you have moved on, and your desire to help others is heart warming.

Mati

How and why has this post been edited without an explanation or my permission?

Hi KT,

Please feel free to further discuss the reason for the Edit with Dianne.

Kind regards,

Nan

KT, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand how arduous an undertaking participating on these boards can be, especially when the subject matter is as intense as this. I'm sure everyone will understand your need to take a break from it periodically. Neverthless I sincerely appreciate the effort you and Nan have exerted in replying to my posts (Nan, still trying to find my original "story" and your reply to it--hopefully will get a grip soon!)

RE: My ability to invest emotionally into my intimate relationships. I've always thought of myself as someone who LOVES to love, who looks forward to feeling safe enough with someone to give him my heart and make the ultimate emotional investment into the relationship at hand. Maybe I've become adept at withholding my emotions more recently without realizing it though--had this last P entered my life at a different earlier time, I might be absolutely devastated now instead of merely mildly depressed. I am certain I withheld with him because I never felt completely safe. I used to be so codependent, if that's the right word, that I would immediately dive in head first to any apparent relationship forming, refusing to see reality whenever it reared its ugly head, until it could no longer be ignored. Perhaps now with a child in the balance I am incapable of my old ways. Now trust has to be earned, and my emotions are first with my baby, whose interests must be well served in the relationship by my estimation, before I can even consider surrendering my heart to any man...

But since I started reading/posting here, I've been giving a lot of thought to what's at the root of why I've attracted so many similar types. And I've mentioned my father's inability to relate to me growing up in a way that made me feel loved unconditionally. My father is a great man, but he himself was raised in an emotionally cold and dysfunctional family environment. It dawned on me that "emotional unavailability" is probably an attractive feature to me like you described KT, not because it is a reflection of my own emotional disposition in relationships, but because of that need to repeat familial patterns that is so often referred to here and in the literature. As I've said before though, my father may have been limited in his ability to express emotions, but I've given it a lot of thought and I'm quite certain he is without a personality disorder, unlike so many of the men I have attracted and chosen as romantic partners...

So maybe I've stumbled upon one piece of the puzzle, in that the emotional unavailability seen in Ns and Ps mimicks my childhood "challenge," or drama, though there have to be more to pieces in play... Combine my childhood drama with my own narcissistic and antisocial traits, and that brings the puzzle a little more into focus... Maybe the final piece has to do with my self-esteem, which continues to be a lifetime "work in progress." I know the stronger I have become in that department, the less I am willing to tolerate from my would-be abusers...

Okay, so KT and Nan, from what I've gathered from your replies, on the one hand, that intense, can't put each other down for ridiculously long periods of time thing is probably nothing more than an exercise in mutual ego-stroking, right? Or at least MY ego was being stroked, while he was probably more importantly in that critical information-gathering phase, learning my weaknesses, etc. I'm sure his ego was stroked to just with my attention, but perhaps in his case an even greater objective was being executed. So how will we distinguish that obsessive, addictive interplay from an otherwise healthy, head-over-heels in love, I wonder? So glad Nan that you think we can still have that... In addition to having a few of the traits listed on the NPD and APD characteristics, I also have some obsessive-compulsive tendencies (surprise, surprise, right?), which is why it is difficult for me to do ANYthing in moderation, especially in the "love" department. So I have a hard time imagining being "in love" in the early phase without also being obsessed to the point of not being able to get off the phone, or refraining from seeing the other person until the weekend, etc.

I am anxious to overcome all that ails me so that I can look forward to a future with a healthy significant other, who I would very much like to find before my daughter's old enough to understand what's happening. She'll be two in January, and I'd like to find my partner and her father before she's four, God willing!

In reply to:

---

Do you know when I met my p., he had fled the UK to Canada six months previously..his condominium (apartment) had no real personal effects...none...no photos, no mementos, no pictures on the wall, no special gifts from the past on display....I know now that is a warning sign. He did have two empty picture frames that were left by the previous tennants, which he filled instantly with photos of (you'll never guess) him and me.....can you believe I missed the signs?

hmm, any similar experiences?

---

sadwiser,

I am currently in an email correspondence with a woman I had along term relationship with, and who left me suddenly 16 years ago. She had recently been abandoned by her P husband for another woman.(And guess what? - her inherited money had also coincidentally just run out due to the P's mismanagement to bankruptsy of a series of business ventures!) She intitiated the exchange,(we had no contact for the previous 10 years, and only 2 brief meetings before that) mainly as a result I think because of guilt feelings - the realisation that I must have gone through the pain of abandonment that she was now feeling.

After a week of email exchange, I was feeling highly uneasy. The relationship with her P ( I did not know he was at the time) seemed very odd. There were things that had happened that defied logic. What you mentioned - lack of mementoes, photos - is exactly what my friend mentioned. When her P left the family home all he took with him were his clothes, shoes, CD's, colognes and haircare products!

The fact that he had taken no photographs of their children, or any of the presents they had made for him or given to himover the years shocked her...

Shocked me too. I tried to put myself in his shoes. A father leaving home as the result of an irretrievable breakdown of a marriage. I would be in a state of grief. I know I would be missing my children like crazy and would want all the little things to remind me of them. the photos to put on the bedside table - the last thing to be looked at each night and given a kiss - would be essential...

Not being able to understand all this sent me into a frenzy of research. Further email filled in the picture. Eventually the penny dropped, and what you mentioned was one of the critical pieces. Psychopathy. Hare, Cleckly, Guggenbuhl-Craig, various resources on the web and this forum clarified things for me.(I admit to being an obsessive about things which interest me that I dont understand - they drive me nuts till Ive figured them out!) Her husband, who she is currently in the process of legally separating from is a P. Fits all categories on the Hare checklist except the final two.

She is also now convinced of this.

This lack of mementoes I have seen mentioned elsewhere as a typical P trait. Ps do not seem to personalise their living spaces in the same way as normal people do. If you ever get invited to somebodies home and it has the atmosphere of an operating theatre or a show home - clinical - then beware!!!. A definite red flag.

I have to say that this forum is I think an essential part of understanding the phenomenon of the P. The P literature gives us the view from the outside. The view from the inside given by people who have had or are in relationships with a p fills in the missing part of the picture.

The official literature also seems to me to be biased as it is mainly based on studies done on criminal class p (sociopaths) in the correctional system. The clever socialized non-criminal P is a hidden problem as they never voluntarily submit themselves for study.

Thanks to all who have contributed their experiences and wisdom to this forum. It has been af great value to me and my friend in understanding what happened to us 16 years ago.

If anybody had told me about the process of psychopathic seduction and the power of the p-victim bond this time last year I would not have believed them...

regards and best wishes to all

justaman

I like what you said about the professional literature being biased. I do not think these P's can all be as pigion holed as boxed up as we would like them to be.
For instance, my "P" does have big time abandonment issues and I read somewhere that is impossible. I am here to tell you it is not. It is HIS ISSUE. HE does not want to be alone on the face of the earth for a myriad or personal background issues he has. He HAS the inability to empathize, I have seen it over and over and over and over and it freaked me out until I found it could be defined and understood. These "P"'s are people too, a bit more individualistic than we care to remember sometimes b/c it is so much easier for us if everything fits neatly in the box.But they don't. They have variations. My "P" is a posterchild "P" but he has his quirks...so many quirks that he cannot even hide those flat emotions in social situations real real well anymore from screwing up his brilliance w/ chemical abuse over a period of many years... just another example.
Thanks.

In reply to:

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For instance, my "P" does have big time abandonment issues and I read somewhere that is impossible.

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I believe you are correct,outsider.

I think Ps with a large Narcissistic component in their characters do appear to have what could be described as 'abandonment issues'

Exactly how this is to be interpretted I'm not sure.

Maybe something to do with fear of loss of control of the victim, who is seen not as a separate individual but as an extension of the Ps self... a bit like losing control of part of ones own mind... and maybe I'm getting a bit deep there!

Whatever...lets keep its simple.. P always likes to do the abandoning, not be the abandoned!

JustAMan,

Welcome, I am glad you found you found your way here. You appear to have done your 'homework' and to know a great deal about the socially adept psychopath.

You write:

"Thanks to all who have contributed their experiences and wisdom to this forum. It has been af great value to me and my friend in understanding what happened to us 16 years ago. "

This puzzles me! Are you saying that the reason your woman friend left you was because she met the man who has just left her and whom you now both believe is a P?

That she got caught in his web, so to speak, and left you suddenly at the other man's behest? I may have misunderstood, but that is how I read it.

"If anybody had told me about the process of psychopathic seduction and the power of the p-victim bond this time last year I would not have believed them..."

You are not alone! Before I met the P, I would not have believed it either. As you mention, the literature on the socially adept psychopath is spotty at best, and what's worse, many people simply do not believe that such people exist, which makes it all the more difficult to be believed when you try to explain to others what is or has happened to you.

Serendipity found me in the local library where I saw an interesting book about Psychology. A chapter mentioned psychopaths and right away I knew I was on to something important. Many hours worth of research later, I knew what kind of man I had been involved with.

Please be aware that your friend will go through a great many differing emotions as a result of having lived with a P for so long. Please realise that she will not be the same woman you once knew. You cannot live with a P for as long as she has done without being extremely vulnerable emotionally. If at all possible, it will help her tremendously if she can find a registered therapist who is conversant with and knows how to help a P victim. Many therapists do not know so you may have to shop around, but they are out there.

Please feel free to ask questions. We will do our best to provide answers.

Kind regards,

Nan

Nan,

Thank you for your kind words of advice. In answer to your questions

In reply to:

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This puzzles me! Are you saying that the reason your woman friend left you was because she met the man who has just left her and whom you now both believe is a P?

That she got caught in his web, so to speak, and left you suddenly at the other man's behest? I may have misunderstood, but that is how I read it.

---

Correct.

And on the basis of numerous descriptive emails, I'm absolutely sure of it. A primary psychopath with a narcissistic character and parasitic lifestyle. Grade A seducer. The perfect soul mate for any woman, at least for the first 6 months after which the mask slowly started to slip... Now on his third victim of which my friend was number two. All the lifestyle patterns and character traits are there. Its quite textbook, right down to the weird inconsistent logic and occasional strange word usage. Bushisms. My friend has estimated him as 33-35 on PCL-R...and after 16 years she would be able to do that better than any psychiatrist, I think..

In reply to:

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Please be aware that your friend will go through a great many differing emotions as a result of having lived with a P for so long. Please realise that she will not be the same woman you once knew.

---

As you say, a roller coaster of emotions. Very extreme. detectable even via email. She is strengthening now and calming down a bit. Physically and emotionally she is a naturally tough person, fortunately. She had in fact 'shut down' as she described it i.e. emotionally divorced the P a year ago, and had ceased to battle with him. Worn out,and was devoting her energies to her children. This, along with the fact that her inherited money was exhausted, I think sent the P into search mode for a new victim

In reply to:

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You cannot live with a P for as long as she has done without being extremely vulnerable emotionally.If at all possible, it will help her tremendously if she can find a registered therapist who is conversant with and knows how to help a P victim. Many therapists do not know so you may have to shop around, but they are out there.

---

After her first divorce she got back with her P (or rather he chased her down mainly with many hour long phone calls of p blather in her ear) and as a condition of possible remarriage, which she imposed, both went into therapy. P seduced the therapist (she now realises) and my friend was then convinced that part of the problem was 'in her' and could only be resolved with P. They remarried.

She is now with a therapist who is experienced in dealing with p-victims and the children of Ps.

In reply to:

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Please realise that she will not be the same woman you once knew.

---

I accept what you say Nan, and will bare it in mind. It is something I have thought about quite a bit. Its not something I'm totally sure about, but I believe that her core character has survived intact. There are layers of hurt which I think are going to take years to heal. I think she herself underestimates this. And certainly she will never be as open and unconditionally trusting of people as she used to be. As to other changes, I dont know. At the moment she is very 'hyper' as for various practical reasons she is still having to deal with the P on a personal basis. Superficially at least she is now impervious to its 'blame game' and tantrums, but... Ive told her... Even though she thinks P isn't getting to her, deep down he still is... and she wont stop being an adrenaline junkie till she can cut it out, even if she does no longer think of p as a human being...

I have emphasised to her that real healing will only begin when full NO CONTACT is established, but unfortunately for practical reasons that will not be for some time yet.

I cant really say much more than that, as much of what she has told me is in confidence.

JustAMan,

I am truly sorry! Your friend will have an extremely tough row to hoe for the next long while.

You are correct that the No Contact rule has to be enforced before healing can actively begin.


"It is something I have thought about quite a bit. Its not something I'm totally sure about, but I believe that her core character has survived intact."

Perhaps so! I am 57. I was only with the P for close to five years, and I know that it has changed me in ways that I could not have predicted. I am more suspicious and question other people's motives. I dig where before I would have been much more accepting. In fundamental ways I am sadder as if something inside me is ceaselessly crying, and in some newly discovered ways I am happier! This is so new and so surprising that I still don't know what has produced it - but I smile at the clouds, laugh into the wind and when I walk, I feel taller.

" There are layers of hurt which I think are going to take years to heal."

It will take time, yes! Hurt and anger will come pouring forth when she begins to feel safe. Before the hurt and the anger the most prevalent feeling in me was one of shame. I was so ashamed that I had allowed myself be fooled, duped and manipulated into submission.

" I think she herself underestimates this. "

Probably! Perhaps it would be best for now to let sleeping tigers lie.

"She is now with a therapist who is experienced in dealing with p-victims and the children of Ps."

You are both doing all the right things. Power to you!

"Superficially at least she is now impervious to its 'blame game' and tantrums, but... Ive told her... Even though she thinks P isn't getting to her, deep down he still is..."

I believe that is correct. She has been indoctrinated for years. Consciously, she may realise this, but the mind is an interesting thing - it holds on to those items that we are not yet ready to deal with and this is, I believe a protective device. The conscious mind should not be forced to deal with what it cannot assimilate.

"I have emphasised to her that real healing will only begin when full NO CONTACT is established, but unfortunately for practical reasons that will not be for some time yet. "

That is very unfortunate. There is a 'evidence' that divorcing a P can be extremely trying. The P is a master manipulator who only thinks in terms of Me, Myself and Mine and he will do anything to oppose, obstruct and otherwise create legal smokescreens that will make it appear that HE is the real victim. He may suddenly appear to be the perfect father, demanding custody. This will not be because he loves the children or even because he wants them, but only because he wants to get back at his wife. P's love the limelight, they love attention and they love to be right - they are NOT deterred by facts, court orders or police officers. Please be careful.

Kind regards,

Nan

Nan,

In reply to:

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In fundamental ways I am sadder as if something inside me is ceaselessly crying, and in some newly discovered ways I am happier! This is so new and so surprising that I still don't know what has produced it - but I smile at the clouds, laugh into the wind and when I walk, I feel taller.

---

something inside me is ceaselessly crying... this is strange Nan... I wonder what it means?

My friend has already reported that she is starting to take pleasure in simple sensory pleasures... walking in the wind...things like that...which she had not for years

In reply to:

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" I think she herself underestimates this. "

Probably! Perhaps it would be best for now to let sleeping tigers lie.

---

Hint taken. Thanks.

In reply to:

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That is very unfortunate. There is a 'evidence' that divorcing a P can be extremely trying. The P is a master manipulator who only thinks in terms of Me, Myself and Mine and he will do anything to oppose, obstruct and otherwise create legal smokescreens that will make it appear that HE is the real victim. He may suddenly appear to be the perfect father, demanding custody. This will not be because he loves the children or even because he wants them, but only because he wants to get back at his wife. P's love the limelight, they love attention and they love to be right - they are NOT deterred by facts, court orders or police officers. Please be careful.

---

The vindictiveness (even to the point of illogical deliberate self damage) of the P in the post abandonment/divorce phase is something I picked up on a while ago. She is aware of all this, but thanks for your reminder. Fortunately her P is not that clever, and suffers from an inability to plan ahead to any serious degree, which is I've read is also a typical P trait. He also has a memory like a sieve. Cant even remember to attend a meeting important to himself, which he himself organised a week previously. She's 3 jumps ahead of it, but is very aware of the need to cover all the angles. My feeling is that when the divorce does come to court P will be seriously ill prepared. She is being very careful.

P loves to be right? P is always right, that goes with out saying ;-)

In reply to:

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I believe that is correct. She has been indoctrinated for years. Consciously, she may realise this, but the mind is an interesting thing - it holds on to those items that we are not yet ready to deal with and this is, I believe a protective device. The conscious mind should not be forced to deal with what it cannot assimilate.

---

My thoughts emtirely. Ive often wondered about the wisdom of therapists prematurely digging up some repressed stuff which ought to be left buried. Forcing people to deal with stuff which hasnt sufficiently 'cooled off'

here's a dream she had recently... I think this is good sign

"Had one of those dreams last night where you cant do what you want... P was being very provocative and foul and I was trying to hit it ---- Nailing jelly to the wall --- exactly fits the bill. Then somehow I flattened P and when I picked it up and slung it over my shoulder it weighed nothing. Very odd."

justaman

JustAMan,

"something inside me is ceaselessly crying... this is strange Nan... I wonder what it means?"

I have given it some thought and can best answer the question by saying what is not <s>, which is partly because I really don't know. It is not a metaphor. It is not depression. It is possible... that the feeling relates to having lost something essential, a fundamental sense of who I am - and that this emotional violation is akin to, has made me aware of, other heretofore unacknowledged losses. Perhaps it has been necessary for me to believe that man is basically good and having discovered otherwise, I feel, as Hare also mentions, that I have lost my innocence? Does that sound too dramatic?

"My friend has already reported that she is starting to take pleasure in simple sensory pleasures... walking in the wind...things like that...which she had not for years"

<Smiling> Ah...that was a metaphor! Although I too have re-discovered simple sensory pleasures, I am experiencing a concrete sense of being happier than I have ever been before. Maybe in having "lost" an aspect of myself that I considered important, I have gained another, even more important one?

Thank you for asking. In having to think about it in order to provide you with an answer, I may have discovered something important.

"here's a dream she had recently... I think this is good sign"

Dreams can be the gateway to the unconscious mind. Writing down your dreams can be an important tool that can promote healing. I have written my down my dreams down for many years. When I first met the P, I had a series of terrifying dreams. I could not identify or relate to the dreams at all, they left me feeling very puzzled; I could not decipher the message. In fact, I spoke with several people about these dreams. Now I see that since I was unaware of the existence of P's, I had no reference point. After I discovered that he is a P, I remembered the dreams and in re-reading them, they made perfect sense.

"P loves to be right? P is always right, that goes with out saying ;-) "

<Chuckle> Indeed! I can still recall the first time I suggested that he may not be right about XYZ. Whoa....

My warm regards to your friend who had the good sense to reconnect with you.

Nan

In response to your input about P's and abandonment- EXACTLY THEY will abandon whenever it is convenient for them but they totally go berserk and get beside themselves if they see you are deadset on not returning to them when they are ready to have you back- mine worries about his parents deaths too b/c they are older parents (even though he'd fantasized about murdering them in their sleep numerous times) They can be complex creatures All about control is the bottom line jazzitup
thanks

Hi JAM,

(Things) “ are going well Nan. I met my ex of 16 years ago for the first time yesterday at her house. An occasion of many tears and hugs... “

Yes….I can so easily imagine how it must have felt. Relief mixed with strong emotions. I can also imagine that your friend must feel a very odd mixture of love, gratefulness and sheepishness, alternating.

”Her P husband, …has as I expected, deep sixed the mediation process. “

Not a surprise. That’s par for the course.

“Her solicitor is now preparing divorce papers. “

A clean break is the best. You are both, I hope, aware that P will obstruct the process, obscure the truth and obliterate his part in everything. He will dredge up old issues, long forgotten fights and where applicable (according to P), make it out that he is the real victim in it all. She was an unfit mother, a terrible money manager, a thoughtless wife, a hag, a shrew and a woman without morals. He will look for ways to claim that she was unfaithful. That she withheld her affections, which caused him to……… (fill in the blank).

May I suggest that you be very, very careful when you are together in public? Please consider that a hotel room is much better than a guestroom. However open and friendly your relations, P can/will use it, especially since you have known each other before - the old claim that past behaviour is a good indication of future behaviour.

” The P seems to be in a foul self destructive mood.”

I would be wary of the self being attached to destructive. P’s have a strange ability to land on their feet. They are so manipulative and so good at playing the victim that they can convince anyone not in the know that they have done ‘everything in their power’ to make things right. As well, this P is well dressed, well spoken and thus presents a picture of an upstanding citizen that many officials will NOT believe capable of P behaviour, which unfortunately is mostly connected to the hapless, uneducated criminal with a prior record.

“He makes endless foul-ups which she is having to catch and correct.”

JAM, this is done on purpose. There are not foul ups as such, but obstructions meant to make life difficult for her.

“ I dont see it lasting much longer.”

I would like that to be true for you and her, but I would not be so certain of that. When dealing with P, it is USELESS to try to predict his behaviour. If you think you can predict his next move, you are likely to be in for BIG surprise. P’s are cunningly versatile in ways that most people cannot begin to comprehend. Throwing logic at them is like throwing water on a goose. P will agree that A is the first letter in the alphabet …what comes next could be B but it also be a totally different letter, even one in the Cyrillic alphabet. Normal people just do not think this way and are therefore unable to imagine that a seemingly normal person (P’s are not insane) could even conceive of this. Be ware!

“She is still under huge pressure on many fronts and feels trapped by circumstances.”

Right now she IS trapped! It is not just a feeling. She is working diligently to get out from under all this mess, but years of emotional abuse, blame and victimization cannot be got rid of just like that. Be patient <smile>.

“I think her inclination will be to wind the business up sooner than later and take the financial hit, as a means of reducing the currently necessary weekly contact with her p. “

If it can be done and if she can survive financially by doing that, it seems the best thing to do. Almost anything is better than being hooked up to a P.

”It was a weird experience for me… An emotion which is difficult to put into words. Bittersweet re-discoveries. And very evocative for me.”

I am guessing JAM, but it seems as though you are in the process of finding your Self. Something strong and viable that you had forgotten you contained.

“ A lot of our time together is still repressed in me, and it was a day of small erupting happy memories. Reconnecting with a past which I had totally buried, till it burst back into my life in the form of an email in July. “

Many years ago, I met and fell in love with a Japanese man. We lived together for more than seven years. There is no doubt in my mind that we loved each other, none. Yet, he had to return to Japan. He is the oldest child and the only male child. His family demanded that he return. He wanted to stay with me - I wanted to keep him with me – and I knew that I could. Had he not returned, he would have been declared dead to his family. We cried almost constantly for five weeks.

I often think of him and within me is a strong desire to see him. Just one more time! To love, to feel loved, to open my heart, my mind and my body to this wonderful man. But I have had to acknowledge that the biggest reason why I want to see him again is that I want to be accessible to myself. Does that make sense to you?

”It is a very odd situation, Nan. For me a struggle with my own feelings as much as anything. Trying to be honest with oneself is the most difficult thing, at least it is for me.”

It is the most difficult thing. Yes it is simple and very elegant - honesty!

“ The constant question is 'am I deluding myself?' “

A counter question arises. What might you be deluding yourself about? What is true for you is not a delusion. What is true for her, …….

”In true psychopathic style I am just following my nose in all this.”

<Laughing> You are too hard on yourself.

“I dare not allow myself any hopes.”

You hope for your Self – your hopes for understanding important aspects of yourself can come true. They are independent of her. The more you are willing to look at your true Self, the better and clearer you will see her.

“ I've been dissapointed too many times in the past, and I do have my own problems with rejection which I can trace back to my own childhood. “

Childhood trauma can follow us all through life. It has taken me many years to resolve just a part of why I am the way I am. Have you ever read the book, The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller?

“I don't seem to be able to handle it as well as many other men appear to.”

I am glad that you wrote the word ‘appear’. It is my experience that men generally handle rejection extremely badly. They do not do the woman thing of crying and talking endlessly about why all in an effort to understand.. Men do not seem interested in understanding the dynamics in the same way that women do. However, I think it is a huge mistake to believe that men therefore do not feel rejection, or are not deeply affected by rejection. To go around crying and carrying on because of lost love, just does not project a very macho image.

“One thing good has come of this, I feel 'unbound' in a way I never have before.”

I think many good things will come from this. Be patient with yourself and be patient with her. Try not to project.

“ I dont feel like i'm hiding any more. “

Welcome JAM, welcome!

Nan

Hi JustAMan, I am moving your post here since I will be closing the other thread. I am glad to hear you putting so many pieces together.

Best,
Di

JustAMan
(member)
11/03/04 04:14 AM

Re: Am I one or is she?

tdev,

Your responses to the Hare checklist re-enforces my earlier opinion that you are not a psychopath, just an average somewhat ****ed up guy, (as am I!)

I would support what Dianne has said. If you are serious about this relationship it looks to me like both of you could do with some serious relationship counceling / therapy.

In response to Nan...

they are going well Nan. I met my ex of 16 years ago for the first time yesterday at her house. An occasion of many tears and hugs...

Her P husband, who left her at the end of June for another woman, has as I expected, deep sixed the mediation process. Her solicitor is now preparing divorce papers.

Their business is still struggling on the edge of bankruptsy. The P seems to be in a self destructive mood.He makes endless foulups which she is having to catch and correct. I dont see it lasting much longer. At the moment she says she is working mainly to reduce the outstanding debt so that when the business does finally go under, her personal liabilities will not be too high.

She is still under huge pressure on many fronts and feels trapped by circumstances. I think her inclination will be to wind the business up sooner than later and take the financial hit, as a means of reducing the currently neccessary contact with her p.

Unlike You or I, Tdev, My Ex's husband is the real McCoy. On the basis of 500+ emails describeing my Ex's life with him over the last 16 years he scores 33-35 out of 40 on the Hare Checklist. This is her estimation which I agree with.He is an almost textbook example of the non-criminal socialised P. Primary psychopath with a Narcissistic character and a parasitic lifestyle. I score myself at 5-7 (tying to be honest in self estimation is not easy!) . I remeber reading an article where Hare scored himself at 4-5. Theres a bit of the psychopath in all men I think , so its not something you should get hung up on. My Ex scores herself as 2. True psychopathy is overwheming a male character disorder though there are also female psychopaths.

Its where the overwhelming prepondrance of traits are present that you need to get worried. There is a continuum of psychopathy which grades to normal. Its not like other syndromes where it's an 'either or' situation, such as Downs syndrome (in some ways a mirror image of psychopathy - there is an intellectual rather than an emotional deficit, as well as the well know physical traits) - this is due to a doubling up of chromasome 21, so you've either got it or you havent. No grey area. Where the cuttoff which allows one to use the word 'Psychopath' falls seems to me to be somewhat arbitrary. In HM Prisons in the UK anybody with a score over 25 out of 40 is deemed to be a P. In the US the normal cutoff score is 30. (eash item on the checklist is assessed and given a maximum score of 2. 0=does not apply, 1 = applies somewhat, 2 = definitely applies - thus the maximum score of the 20 item PCL-R is 40)

Personally I would not wish to talk about anybody of being a Psychopath unless I had full detailed knowledge of their character and life history, and was very sure of my ground.

The word has perjorative and negative connotations to most people (the Hannibal Lecter image) , who are also mainly unaware of what it really means. There is also the problem of the confusion in the publics mind between Psychopath and Psychotic - two completely different things. There are only 2 people who Ive ever who I've ever known I'm willing to say openly are psychopaths. Many people have psychopathic tendencies, and much behaviour exhibited by ordinary people can be labelled as psychopathic. The word Psychopath as a descriptor for an individual should not be used lightly.

I get the impression that your partner is using the word without knowing what it means, in order to get at you.

Meeting my Ex was a weird experience for me. Seeing numerous possessions which belonged to both of us all those years ago in a strange house. Presents I had given her. Things I remembered from her mothers house. All of which I had totally forgotten about for so long. An emotion which is difficult to put into words. Bittersweet re-discoveries. And very evocative for me. A lot of our time together is still repressed in me, and it was a day of small errupting happy memories.Reconnecting with a past which I had totally buried, till it burst back into my life in the form of an email in July.

It is a very odd situation, Nan. For me a struggle with my own feelings as much as anything. Trying to be honest with oneself is the most difficult thing, at least it is for me. The constant question is 'am I deluding myself?'

In true psychopathic style I am just following my nose in all this. I dare not allow myself any hopes. I've been dissapointed too many times in the past, and I do have my own problems with rejection which I can trace back to my own childhood.I don't seem to be able to handle it as well as many other men appear to.

One thing good has come of this, I feel 'unbound' in a way I never have before. Yesterday we talked about things in a way we were never able to in when we were together. Very weird. Perhaps with some people, mainly men I suppose, it does take some sort of huge trauma to burst them open, to allow them to expose their inner feelings. It brings a sense of relief. I dont feel like i'm hiding any more.

regards

JuatAMan

In reply to:

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“Her solicitor is now preparing divorce papers. “

A clean break is the best. You are both, I hope, aware that P will obstruct the process, obscure the truth and obliterate his part in everything.

---

Yes thanks Nan. Quite aware of the track record of Ps where divorce is concerned. She is prepared.

In reply to:

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May I suggest that you be very, very careful when you are together in public?

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Aware of the problems, and possible arguments that the P could use should my involvement become known. We will not be seen together in public till after the divorce. P is not aware that we are in contact. Only half a dozen close personal friends - from our time prior to the arrival of P 16 years ago, and her therapist and legal representative are aware that we are in contact.

In reply to:

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” The P seems to be in a foul self destructive mood.”

I would be wary of the self being attached to destructive.

---

Note use of 'seems' I believe that p in general is not willfully or knowingly self destructive but always acts in its own perceived short term interest and for psychopathic gratification. In this case it is acting against its own long term interest, but because of the way its mind works is unable to see this. It wants it NOW, even if that means that it wont be able to have any tomorrow. The fact that it cant have it NOW, because my friend (in conjunction with a friendly bank manager) has it roped down financially is pissing it off something rotten, and we think exacerbating the bad behaviour. Looks like the response of a deranged 2 year old. The behaviour looks like pulling the house down onto its own head so it can grab and eat a sweetie which it thinks might be sitting on the roof. There is possibly also an illogical but malicious desire to 'punish' involved. No idea if this a conscious or unconscious strand in the Ps thinking.

In reply to:

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When dealing with P, it is USELESS to try to predict his behaviour.

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I cant totally agree with that Nan.

Once one understands the nature of the beast to a certain extent - its hidden motivations - and the way its mind works it is I thnk possible to predict a range of probable responses in any particular circumstance and make allowances for them.

For Example. In july my friend told me that She and P were at the start of the mediation process. In the UK this serves as a cheap method of negotiating a legal document of separation or eventually a full blown divorce divorce without the expense of an adverarial process through the courts. Both She and P are now short of money and this was the rational course of action. She hoped to avoid expensive court action

I ran this process through my knowledge of how the p mind works and came to the conclusion that it was bound to fail. The p it seemed to me would never negotiate in good faith, involving voluntary compromise, but would see mediation as a battle that it would have to dominate and win. Winner takes all - or at least as much as possible to ensure that the victim is the 'loser' in the Ps mind. If it could not achieve that it would refuse to co-operate and the process would deadlock... I advised my friend as to this and that she should get all her paperwork in order for the court divorce and dig up as much solid dirt as possible on Ps past dealings... not to waste too much energy on the mediation process, but concentrate on getting ready for the next stage. It seems to me that you cant negotiate with a p in the normal human sense... just give it boundaries, ultimatums and options...

and so it came to pass... even the normally unflapable (trained to stay unflapable in the face of emotionally distraught spouses in the midst of marital breakdown) mediator finally got the hump with the Ps antics...

if you can understand the ps basic motivations and think yourself down to their limited level, they are not totally unpredictable. Once you get a handle on the concept of psychopathic gratification as opposed to human (emotional/empathic) motivations, and the limitations inherrent in the psychopths thought processes it does start to make sense. Reliably unreliable and erratic, yes, but not totally unpredictable. You can rely on the Ps selfishness, greed, envy, vanity and inability to concentrate on that which does not interest it. You can rely it on it to lie for a purpose, or without purpose, and with the straightest of faces. You can rely on the P to want to get one over on you - just, it would seem, for the hell of it. You can rely on the p not to give a fig (apart from a possible little act of wounded innocence, stonewalling or temper tantrum) when it gets caught out in a lie. You can rely on it to provide another lie to explain the first lie. You can rely on it to want to appear to be in control of any situation (making stuff happen) and not appear to be controlled by the situation (and that includes any other humans) - having stuff which it has not provoked or intitated happening to it.

and there are many other aspects of the Ps character which you can rely on... as I'm sure we all know. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, if P has motivation enough to pick it up...

And I realise that's all very easy for me to say operating at arms length via email. Impossible for anybody who has lived with a P. In that case the total emotional dissengagement that dealing with a P requires just cant be done. Humans do not have the required level of voluntary control over their Limbic responses. For the victim NO CONTACT is the only way out.

This thinking myself down into the Ps shoes is a curious process. Its not pleasant and something I can only manage in short bursts. It involves eliminating all emotional content from ones own thinking ( for me this requires a period of something akin to meditation or mind emptying) , and creating a mental map of the Ps basic motivations and consequent thought processes, then running the situation under consideration through that map. Its an entirely intellectual exercise, and there is none of the normal empathic 'relating' which is involved when one is attempting to second guess normal people. the only thing you can relate to are the Ps intellectual capabilities, and how its defects hobbles those. Fortunately the one i have been 'relating' to is not too bright. If it was cleverer than me I think my friend would be in big trouble. It seems to have problems thinking through complex situations with a lot of variables and many potential outcomes - always goes for the first easy option that appears to be to its advantage. Never seems to take time to scope out all the options. Another way of looking at it is that this P never seems to see the Bigger Picture. It only seems to see a series of Little Pictures, and deals with each in turn as they present themsleves in its normal selfserving way. This of course creates the typical P chaos and gets it into deep dodo, which it blames anybody but itself for.

I think maybe women might have more dificulty with this mode of emotion free relating, and thats its possibly easier for certain types of men like me to achieve.

When you get there you realise that the P does in fact think that it is a human. The true P (the thing of pure selfishness) , I think, is operating in a delusional state and believes in its own mask - the constructed outer self by which the true self (unconsciously?) conceals itself and interacts with the world, justifying its actions to itself and others. Hmm thats tricky. Not sure Ive got it quite straight!.Its a dificult mental construct to put into words and that reads like an oversimplification.. Doh! On one level, I think my friends P really does believe it is a loving father and successful businessman, and is incapable of apreciating that it is not. All its faults and problems are rationalised as being due to external factors and not the fault of the selfish and malicious (does that word really apply? I'm not sure) drives of its true self, which it cannot perceive.

Well thats the way I see it. Interpretting the p at a deep level is something I'm not at all certain about. I'm not even sure if they can even ever be totally 'conscious' in a human sense.. too much seems to be missing. Intelligent semi-automata is how I really see the P... Beyond this point we start to slide off into the deep stuff of philosphy and theology.. is the P capable of free will or does it just do what it does becasue of what it is and has no choice in the matter? DO the concepts of good and evil apply to something which at a fundamental level can't tell (feel) the difference? Good and evil being just learnt labels to it in the same way as red and blue are to a person blind from birth.. and those labels utilised by the p solely to judge real world consequences to itself...

Interesting questions. But I have to cut off above that level and keep it practical. Dont really have time for the deep debate. Too much thinking involved.

Thinking down to the Ps level is not something I enjoy doing. The mind of a p under its mask as I imagine it is pretty horrible place. When you get deep in and start unpicking whats actually going on in the p-victim bond it all gets pretty disgusting from a human point of view.

From what I've seen I dont think a p is ever really happy in the human sense. The closest I think they ever come to that is what could be described as a feeling of... um...exultation or maybe triumph ( trying to find words that fit is not easy!) when a victim who is resisting is finally brought 'under control', bonded by the Ps imitation of love. This I think is the peak experience in their lives. What the P calls love is I think its emotion free basic male sex drive (sensual lust), which it has mislabelled in its own mind. A misunderstanding of male sexuality is I think at the heart of the p-victims problems. The concept of emotion free sexual arousal is something women have trouble relating to.

Betrayal, the bigger the better, when the victim is not expecting it, and when the P has a lie to explain the betrayal which the victim can be persuaded to buy into and which portrays the P in a 'good' light, comes a close second.

Most of the time I think he p exists in a state of what could be described as a grumbling low level frustration / irritation. Never really satisfied. Always looking for the next big thing, the next buzz, to get rid of that feeling of disatisfaction, and never succeeding in finding it.

Possibly even aware that it is missing out on something, but incapable of figuring out what that is.

Diving to the heart of the P I think I see something very small which is desperate to control...everything ...and which lashes out when it finds that it cannot... and which is incapable of perceiving that other people are not 'things' which can or should be controlled, as it has no way of relating to them in the normal human way. No empathy. If the p had any emotions I'd feel sorry for it, but there's no point - it wouldnt be able to appreciate my feelings.


those last few points are pretty speculative. Who knows whats really going on deep in the Ps psyche. I don't, really. That's just me thinking off the top of my head..

regards

JustAMan

ha... well I've just re-read and seem to have chucked out a few speculative and provocative ideas there!... turned into a bit of a stream of consciousness.. enjoy!

Hi,

Well……thanks, no ----- . Your clever, eloquent and intellectual description of the P mind and behaviour is true, interesting and unpleasant. At least to me. My apologies!

What you write about the P mind is much too reminiscent of things I know first hand. Of things, I understand on a raw, naked and very personal and emotional level. You understand the P mind and behaviour very well, but on a strictly intellectual level, which is far removed from the actual experience of it - removed from having been on the receiving end of a mind so relentless and so intent on destruction for its own sake.

I don’t believe that you (or anyone for that matter) can understand the effects of such devastating mind play on an emotional level unless you have experienced it. I understand it now, but having lived through this emotional abuse without realising what went on and thus not been able to defend myself against it, is beyond the shadow of a doubt much, much worse than the physical abuse I suffered as a child.


Nan

In reply to:

---

Well……thanks, no ----- . Your clever, eloquent and intellectual description of the P mind and behaviour is true, interesting and unpleasant. At least to me. My apologies!

---

what are you appologising for Nan?

None neccessary that I can see ( I am used to other far more..um... agressively combative political forums... and unlike the P who is only in it to win, I really am here to learn. I enjoy it when people pull my stuff apart and teach me something new or point out any errors in my info or thinking...

...and as an aside...I'm really toning my normal style down to keep in with the milieu and atmosphere of support of this place... Hope I'm doing ok so far...dont want Dianne to start deleting my posts!)

In reply to:

---

I don’t believe that you (or anyone for that matter) can understand the effects of such devastating mind play on an emotional level unless you have experienced it.

---

Yes Nan. Ive understood that for some while now. Other posters here have made the same point, and its a realisation I was coming to independently once I started to get a handle on what is involved in a relationship with a p. Thats why this forum is so valuable. Insights from insiders, not available from the formal literature.

Being in an emotional relationship - on one side, the most obscene form of addictive psychological warfare as I view it - with a P is something I hope I will never have to experience. I have no ambitions to have my trust betrayed, emotions raped, yoyo-ed back and forth, ground down, love twisted to hate and anger.

Its hugely upsetting that this happened to somebody I cared for deeply, and one level still do.

Its something I have to understand from the outside, to the best of my ability. This is neccessary for me to be of any help to my ex.

Yup. Psychopathy as you say is an unpleasant business (to say the least!) when you get down to the nitty gritty, even to the external observer who takes a close look. I have no desire ever to feel what it is like from the inside.

A number of posters have noted that the initial passionate intensity of their love for their 'perfect soul mate' was something they never experienced with any 'normal' man. Thats an awful trap. The holiday in heaven is no way worth the subsquent lifetime in hell, and theres no repeat trip. Spread the news. You cant ever get it back. Its something every woman needs to know. This and red flag information about abusers ought to be taught to teenage girls in school. Wouldnt be a bad thing for men to know about as well... there are a few female p out there too..

regards

JustAMan

Hi JAM,

"what are you appologising for Nan? None neccessary that I can see ( I am used to other far more..um... agressively combative political forums..."

So am I! If, in the right forum, we were discussing politics or philosophy or some such subject, I would enjoy sparring with you.

"...and unlike the P who is only in it to win, I really am here to learn."

Oh, I do not doubt that you are here to learn.

" I enjoy it when people pull my stuff apart and teach me something new or point out any errors in my info or thinking..."

Yes! I am aware that I could have done that and that you would have enjoyed the challenge it represented. With just about any other subject I would have enjoyed it as well.

This forum is a very different place. We wear our hearts on our sleeves and lay ourselves emotionally open in ways that most of us would not except with a very trusted friend.

I have replied to your posts with as much intuitiveness and sensitivity as I could bring to bear on the subject matter you presented. Perhaps, I went too far? Perhaps I hit a nerve, I do not know. I can only guess. If, it was done to help not to hinder and not in any way to make you feel obliged.

It takes me hours, literally, to reply to some posts. I am very careful about what words I use and how I frame my sentences. I deliberately refrain from being clever and I use words that can be understood by anyone, posters and readers alike (we have a huge readership - people who never post).


"...and as an aside...I'm really toning my normal style down to keep in with the milieu and atmosphere of support of this place... Hope I'm doing ok so far...

Yes! As you have noted, you are the only 'bloke' on the board. A man usually has a somewhat different approach to emotional subjects, but because you have been extremely sensitive and searching as well, I chose to reply in kind.

"...dont want Dianne to start deleting my posts!)"

Posts are deleted for different reasons. The biggest reason for removing a post is to keep the forum in order, i.e., housekeeping. We want to keep threads in order and on-topic, which was the reason why I replied to your post in your original thread. I should have, but forgot to move and delete the other post and Dianne wrote and told me that she had done it for me.

To cut all my ahem...backtracking short: In my posts to you, I have worn my heart on my sleeve, which is not a state conducive to being clever and intellectual, and I was literally bowled over when I read your other post. It hit me with such force that I sat here staring at the screen wanting nothing more than to have done.

Perhaps in another discussion along the same lines, we could take smaller bits. Bits, with enough substance to make it interesting on an intellectual level, but not so long that you feel thrown into a vortex of throughts and feelings that makes it impossible to stand straight.

Kind regards,

Nan

In reply to:

---

" I enjoy it when people pull my stuff apart and teach me something new or point out any errors in my info or thinking..."

Yes! I am aware that I could have done that and that you would have enjoyed the challenge it represented. With just about any other subject I would have enjoyed it as well.

---

Not quite Nan... challenge doesnt come into it. The reason I'm here is entirely functional. Nothing to do with the dominance game of rhetorical debate. I would enjoy being corrected, not challenged. The more I understand about the situation I'm involved in the less anxious I feel about it. Thats where the enjoyment of reading the posts here comes into it - anxiety reduction. It is a pleasant sensation when another piece fits into the jigsaw, and that gnawing feeling of doubt and puzzlement is reduced. Its also invaluable to the feedback I am able to provide to my friend. She is running at 100mph just to stand still in her life and does not have time to do any in depth research herself

Some of the analysis and reports of P lifestyles, behaviours and character traits Ive seen here is not available elsewhere. Its invaluable. As I am not, and never have been directly involved with a p, the ammount of posting I intend to do will be limited. I dont have the experience myself to offer validation of others experiences. Any posts are likely to be more on the factual/analytic side...

For instance, a recent response of mine to another man who thought he might (in my opinion erroneously) be a p seemed appropriate.

Im sorry of you found my 'off the top of my head' ramble on the nature of the p in any way disturbing. That was not the intention.

Dont spare my feelings Nan. If there is anything in what I say which you find to be factually incorrect, ambiguous, or poorly thought out, jump in feet first. I need to know.

Hi Justaman

just wanted to say that I wish there were more friends of victims who would do as much as you are doing for your friend. I hope she appreciates what you are doing and you both benefit from each other.

Good luck

Recovery

Thanks for those kind words, Recovery.

I think she has benefited, and I know I have. Various 'issues' which should have been cleared up between us years ago have now been resolved.

She is now 'intellectually' 100% there ( she wasnt in July) . The emotional adjustment to a very weird reality is still underway. Healing has barely started and I think is going to take many years. Its the emotional damage to the 2 children that I see that most upsets me. I have to harden my heart to stay sharp for her. The situation with the p is getting critical. There is going to be some sort of crisis in the next week. There are several factors in the situation which the p doesnt know about and which are going to hit him almost simultaneously. hes going to be under a lot of pressure and i'm not sure how he's going to react. Going by his life history ( which I have) it should be OK , but you never can tell. Precautions are being taken, but I'm still a bit nervous. Cant give details fo obvious reasons.

JustaMan